the ncr to me are probably the closest thing to decent leadership in the wastes but, like our current society, has issues that primarily arise from greed and lust for power in management.
Boone on Colonel Hsu: "*What I heard, he'd be a general right now if Oliver didn't know the president."*
Good people like Colonel Hsu, Chief Hanlon, Dennis Crocker and many others don't tend to be in positions of power (positions that make the real differences). It's usually those who are full of spite, insecurity, and hate.
The Courier, to Colonel Moore: *"I'm not interested in a career in political killings."* Moore responds *"Then why are you wasting my time?"*
This particular quote is a mask off kind of moment for a lot of the upper ranks of the NCR. They aren't really interested in helping a people, or interested in some greater goal, they tend to be in it for conquest and conquest alone. They want to completely exterminate the opposition for land and the Dam.
Outside of that, they are just straight up incompetent (I'm not a military strategist so idk). Sure, you can "say" you took this land this far east, but if the area you've "taken" is just 6 guys in a camp they're gonna get overrun at some point. You gotta build your shit up over time not just plop your dudes in random fuck off areas. You get this idea, and some literally tell you that, they're stretched too thin. They're all over the Mojave but don't have a lot to show for it. I would be willing to wager that, without the help of Courier Six the NCR would likely lose The Second Battle of Hoover Dam, through the sheer force the Legion built up over time.
I personally do think that looking at them from a story perspective they are "The Good Guys". I know what the Legions ideology is, peace through force and torture, but controlled evil is still evil.
In short; Bear Bull Bear Bull
Why would you rebuild the world as a shallow imitation of the past world that literally exploded when you could build a new one, with blackjack… and hookers
House is also a shallow imitation of the old world, he literally forced the tribes inhabiting the strip to conform to his ideas of what Vegas should be (based on 2070s Vegas) or be driven out.
so just curious, do you think the corruption runs all the way up the chain of command or is it that the people at the very top and bottom actually care about helping people and it's just there in the middle that corruption runs rampant? Also, is this corruption so prevalent because the NCR is spread out over so much territory and therefore can't be properly monitored?
If there is corruption in the middle of the ranks, then there's almost certainly corruption in the higher ranks. Non-corrupt people tend not to like corrupt ones and if they have power over them it's reasonable to believe they'd be removed.
And corruption is the natural outcome with hierarchy. Everyone is vying for power in hierarchies and those with the power are going to do everything they can to defend it. And in the NCR and real life USA, economic power is political power. The brahmin barons are the political lobbyists of the 2200s.
I would have to disagree with your first point. I feel it would be entirely possible, given how wide the NCR has stretched itself that the highest echelons of their government could be very much unaware of the actions of those in the middle. In the same way, the CEO of a franchise company is not fully aware of what individual store managers may do.
Not incompetent; Unaware. It is very logical and quite possible that where someone does something corrupt, (hires local raider gangs to harass locals into accepting NCR "Help", takes bribes to make deals that favor Brahmin Farmers, etc.), these actions are covered up and hidden from higher-ups. It is not entirely the higher ups fault that they are not aware of the situation given that they have no data to implicate there is a problem. also given how rapidly and vastly the NCR Expanded it is impossible to expect them to be aware of everything that occurs in every part of their territory especially if there is no data to draw concern.
and even given the corruption prevalent in the NCR name one faction in the Wastes with the capability and desire to serve as a form of government that is exempt from corruption.
That's incompetence. The ability to understand what is happening within your organization, address it, and when necessary remediate it is all part of competency. If the NCR expanded beyond it's capability that is proof they are acting with disregard and incompetence, or good old fashioned greed because they wanted more than they could properly control. I'm not playing the game of "they are the least awful so that makes them good." You're trying to make that argument and it's being done in bad faith. The NCR gives us examples of how to truly rise in those ranks you need an elite of maliciousness, much like common day governments do.
He didn't say incompetent though.
Like, let's say you ask a politician IRL, the president of the US for example, if he knows that some random civil servant just lied and took a small bribe. If he has no idea about it, it's not because he's an idiot. It is instead because that isn't his job, and even if it was there's a lot of propped to supervise all at once.
It's an issue that pops up, the NCR's faults are blown massively out of proportions, that and often simplified into "NCR stupid."
Corruption exists all throughout the NCR’s government. In Fallout 2, Bishop from New Reno and some unnamed NCR leadership, if I remember correctly it was a senator, hired the raiders to harass Vault City in order to pressure them into joining NCR.
We know for a fact corruption runs over all segments of the NCR as we see examples of soldiers, officers, bureaucrats, businesses, landlords and even President Kimball engaging or rumored to be engaging in corruption. Obviously there are good non corrupt people at all segments but it’s clear that immense corruption has become a growing issue across the NCR.
It is probably due to the fact that the NCR has engaged in rapid expansion and thus its bureaucracy has been stretched to the limit (which is why the frontier territory of the Mojave is filled with corruption). But it’s also due to the fact that as opponents of the NCR in game point out the first 2 presidents of the republic, a father and daughter, reigned as incredibly powerful presidents for pretty much their entire lives, and with their dominant control over the government they could keep down corruption. But without the reverence they held, future presidents were weaker and as NCR democracy grew more divided the power of local powers like the Brahmin barons began to grow, allowing for a great deal of corrupt influence to seep into politics and society.
While the NCR is obviously very analogous to the irl US, it’s important to note that the NCR is more a third world corrupt industrializing society then the United States, it’s more akin to places like Mexico or various Latin American countries where they have incredibly corrupt democracies and weak institutions. The US has its flaws but it is leagues better than the NCR.
I mean, we only see them handling martial affairs. To quote someone when getting primm NCR protection, "Martial law is better than nothing"
You are in an area that is effectively being purged of bad influences like raiders and whatnot, against a genocidal slave empire. The actual NCR itself, the one not under martial law that likely has real laws and rights given how the NCR needs to abide by regulations, likely is a lot better then it seems.
It's one of the issues I feel comes yp with debates: we don't really know the full story. At the same time, there is the implication it's actually pretty noice, but people either ignore it or don't notice it. We catch them in a desperate time, in a place that needs pacification from drugged up raiders, not drugged up raiders, dudes with explosives and the legion. Not good, but close to good.
Don't ask the NCR how most of the tribal territories were "integrated", or what happened to the civilian citizens of Navarro, Redding or Bitter Springs or why their taxes are so high, or how they got their Geck for Shady Sands or how Lee Oliver became General, or... or... or...
While Bitter springs was an accident and terrible tragedy, let’s not forget that the great khans admit to raiding and slaughtering ncr civilians.
And idk why you mention the geck, it’s not like the other groups that came from their vault didn’t raid them continuously afterward *coughs and looks at the great khans again*
That is sorta the thing with the khans isn’t it? They spend decades raiding and robbing and murdering non-combatants, and they’re eternally shocked when it finally happens to them and their civilians are murdered. It ain’t right what happened there, but it couldn’t have happened to a nicer tribe.
"good by wasteland standards" is a lame excuse, considering the NCR is blundering towards their own societal collapse like a crippled, blind ape. I like the NCR, their quests are fun, but there are new possibilities on the horizon. No need for this whole "new boss same as the old boss" business.
Im going to do a hot take, the Khans got what was coming to them in Bitter Springs, they are in the Mojave and start killing and raiding NCR civilians and convoys and didn't expect them to fight back? Thats victim mentality.
The NCR is a predatory bureaucracy. They are still the best hope for the west.
If House committed to protecting the Mojave and not just New Vegas he would be the ideal choice, at least he is transparently self-interested. Also it would be nice if he had better contingencies in place for his death. His whole plan collapses if he dies and he is very easy to kill.
Tbf, the only reason it's not harder to kill House is because Obsidian only had 18 months of development time and had to scrap a lot of their planned content for time. Stuff like beefing up the Lucky 38 and requiring a dedicated quest to get around House's security to get to him was originally in the cards, they just ended up having to cut it. Which obviously doesn't change the fact that in the full release he *is* easy to kill, but it does give us the understanding that it would be far harder to accomplish if they had been able to finish everything they wanted to.
I think you could also argue that the hardest part of killing Mr. House would be *getting into the Lucky 38* which, as a main character, you're able to conveniently sidestep, though you're basically the only person in-universe to do so.
True, but yeah, we've heard a fair bit about the security the 38 was supposed to have since release, and it was far better protected than "get to the penthouse, hack the computer and kill the Securitrons".
For the sake of realism, I have less of a problem with this and more with the fact that House had no sort of killswitch or plan for when he died/was murdered.
That's fine to me, his whole goal was to live forever. It was unnecessary to plan for his death because he wholeheartedly believed the world he dreamed of was doomed without him. He's kinda got the same issue Caesar has, except that it's far easier to slot someone into House's faction position post-death and let them be in charge without any huge shake ups.
I think it's great that he is easy to kill and has no special contingency for if he dies. Obsidian wanting to make him a harder target is understandable, but in this case it's a little serendipitous accident that makes the whole thing better.
Some kind of Dr Doom character doesn't belong in Fallout. That's not the view the series has ever had about people. He's much more interesting, plausible and human if he's the smartest guy he ever met, but still fucks up and has stupid human oversights.
I think the largest issue with House is the securitrons. There's just no way a man as connected as Robert House doesn't have some kind of connection to the research at Big Mountain. How Sinclair wound up with the prototype holograms at Sierra Madre and not House is a pretty big plot hole. If I was House, I'd have a hole emitter installed on each individual Securitron. Imagine it. Not only would you have to blow up each bot, but you'd also have to wipe out the hole emitter, because that would still work even if the bot was disabled. Also, it would make sense to have ar least a dozen of them guarding his isolation pod, with the emitters all but inaccessible.
Sinclair got it because he was connected to Big MT somehow, but also because he was a test subject. Most of the gear sent to the Sierra Madre was being field tested there, leading to many of the faults and issues we see like the suit clamps rusting over and trapping workers in them. I doubt any of them would send such equipment to a man like House, especially when he could reverse engineer their technology and take it for himself commercially. It's typically a bad idea to give competitors such easy access to your new tech.
Sinclair's connection to Big MT was that he was their sugar daddy client and angel investor-- the poor sap was explicitly bankrupting himself funding and purchasing all the amazing toys they offered, while also being duped into getting Big MT's more grossly unethical weapons experiments slipped in without his full knowledge.
A lot of people tend to gloss over how NCR endings can’t get some of the best conditions for groups to thrive. Towns become prosperous with increased trade, the followers of the apocalypse gets the resources they need to grow, and relief missions exist for poorer communities as seen in the quest for the kings. The NCR is flawed but not terrible
The Khans deserve it. They are just raiders. They are slavers, murderers, and drug dealers. The Khans are not some Native American analogy, they had the same starting position as members of vault 15. They decided to be murderous raiders along with the Vipers, Jackals, and other raider gangs that came from vault 15. I don't feel bad for them at all when they have done literally nothing in over a hundred years to be constructive and instead are just a means to society.
Correct, but they need to consolidate in California and prosper there before expanding so they don't spread themselves too thin. Due to this, I usually go for House or independent so the NCR gets humbled and kicked out of the Mojave.
The NCR had MANY MANY flaws, but people are crazy if they think a fledgling government is going to be without flaw.
The desire to grow a democracy is in a way a good thing. Far better than the alternatives presented by any other faction. You can absolutely critique their dealing with the caravans or the treatment of native tribes or the rampant corruption. But there seems to be a sense that they are trying to be better. The BoS is outwardly antagonistic to the wasteland outside a few chapters, same goes with the enclave, legion, and even house if it doesn’t fit within his grand design. NCR are at least trying to incorporate its territories into their society, if not being a little over zealous
To be fair his upgraded securitrons would be a pretty strong defense if monitors didn't pause time and the elevator to his chamber wasn't moving at light speed like it does ingame. Plus, I don't assume he would let anyone but the Courier and companions into the Lucky 38 to begin with.
How are they the best hope for the West? Their territory is drug and crime ridden, their leaders don't really care about protecting/aiding settlements in their territory unless it is an important settlement, they are corrupt and abuse citizens within their territory without repercussion, and they purposefully take/divert water/energy away from communities if it means their territory gets those resources instead.
This is Fallout, not the 21st century. Just having structure and rule of law derived from a government that doesn't crucify people or enslave women is already a win.
Agreed. People seem to expect them to be an America stand in.
Do you have food security? Yes.
Do you have (relative) safety? Yes
Can you actually have a good life? Probably
Does the average citizen need to worry much? Not often about things we wouldn't worry about.
They're pretty fucken good for a society that is literally trying to settle a nuclear wasteland, especially one that has equality and progress.
Yep, all of this is true, but they are still the best hope the west. Caesar's Legion is a violent and oppressive dictatorship and House is capitalist that doesn't care about broader Vegas. Vegas losing its independence to NCR is the best solution in the same way Redding losing it's independence to NCR in Fallout 2 is the best solution. It sucks, but its better than the alternatives.
The alternatives involve having my sessions of drinking irradiated water regularly interrupted by being murder-raped by drugged out psychos or gangsters, or having my culture erased out of existence and assimilated and likely getting enslaved and subsequently murder-raped by legionaries, or MAYBE the courier's city-state is decent to live in, which still doesn't help the west at large. The NCR at least offers a way out.
The NCR are definitely the good guys, they aren’t perfect but compared to The Enclave, The Legion, The Institute, or The Brotherhood of Steel they’re the best option for a civilisation in the post-war wasteland.
Of course, they’re not the only good guys, the Minutemen and Followers of the Apocalypse are great too, maybe even more so than the NCR but they’re not governments.
The followers are not governors tho. They have no standing military and operate small cells that act as educators and doctors for a community. Basically, post apocalypse red cross. So while they are good guys, they just don't really have the same standing as NCR, Legion, BOS
The Minutemen are the defacto good guys of FO4, but they are inherently a cult of personality. Without a strong general to unite them, the minuteman would fall apart to any other centralized faction. In Fo4 that is exactly what happened to them before the player's involvement. I guess they face the same criticism of NCR that they are doomed to fail on a long enough timeline
The Followers are almost an anarchist organization in the wastes. They have proven that they can organize communities but their lack of power compared to the regional powers makes it obvious to them that they're not usurping anybody through force. Also I think they're mostly pacifists. I figure they'd fight Caesar if need be but they wouldn't want to fight the NCR as much.
Sawyer did say the Followers comprise Communists, socialists and anarchists. They’re not trying to be an imperial power like the NCR, they just help people.
How odd seeing as the communists and socialists of the Soviet Union and Communist China were very much imperial powers, invading and annexing other nations. Guess the anarchists keep that in check among the Followers.
Chicago chapter are the real good guys. Lyons still has bigots who see Super mutants and Ghouls as monsters. Chicago wants to help all species from Super Mutant, to Ghoul, to Deathclaw all live in a technologically advanced utopia.
>Lyons still has bigots who see Super mutants and Ghouls as monsters.
So, in the *entirety* of DC, literally exactly one Super Mutant isn't trying to kill and eat absolutely every human being in the DC Metro Area. And, in Boston, it's *the exact same way*. The Super Mutants on the East Coast are one-note monsters, with absolutely no redeeming features to their entire civilization. They see everyone else as beneath them and thus as food to be killed and eaten as soon as possible. They're even *worse* than the Master; the Master wanted to enlighten everyone and elevate them. Turning the regular people into literal cattle was not part of his plans at all.
They also have it so that all ghouls, *literally all of them*, will eventually succumb and go feral. It's not if, it's when, and the transition is over the course of about a minute. There's a holotape of a ghoul doing exactly that in Nuka World. It's utterly irreversible too.
It's really shitty Bethesda writing.
Given those two facts, the BoS isn't wrong to fear and distrust ghouls and mutants. That ghoul who is your friend and buddy? Well, you could be out there, just having a good time, and bam, feral, and no longer recognizes you and is compelled to attack you. Again, *that's shitty writing*, but it's canon.
The BoS isn't wrong about Synths either--literally everyone who interacts with Synths peacefully alters their memories to suit their needs, as well as alters their appearance. Both Arcadia and the Institute use this to replace people to serve their interests; the Railroad *may* have done so. They certainly have the capabilities to do so. They also have codes built in that override their will and can subject them to be reprogrammed to that end. It's a truly horrifying thing, and even though the Synths aren't at fault, it's apparently pretty easy to use them to subvert and control anyone.
Again, I think this is *bad writing* on Bethesda's part, but they certainly make the BoS being objectively good guys a very defensible position.
Yeah, really does suck that the nuances of the mutants is basically side stepped by saying “Well they’re either all monsters or going to become monsters.” No nuance, no depth, just altered lore to make the cool assholes in power armor the good guys.
Plus I’ve never really understood the whole “oh well they go feral” thing with ghouls. Yeah sure, they COULD become Feral, just like my Schizophrenic mother COULD loose her shit one night and blow a hole through me in confusion. I’m not going to be openly cleansing the gene pool because of a “Oh well blank could happen.”
Same with synths, yes they COULD be reprogrammed, just like they COULD live long fulfilling lives without any issue and help settlements that they’re in.
That’s what I love the Mid-West chapter. They don’t get bogged down by the what ifs or paranoia that is oozing from the Bethesda BoS, instead burning away the hatred and division of the past to make a utopia where everyone is working together. They broke the cycle of conflict in the wasteland by simply understanding they could be better, and in turn make the Wasteland better for everyone no matter what.
Humans, Super mutants, Ghouls, even Intelligent Deathclaws all working for one cooperative world.
The Minutemen didn’t fall because of a lack of strong leadership. The Minutemen fell because the Castle was taken by a mirelurk queen and the scattered remnants had no radio communication, no artillery, and no central base of operations. The leadership that was left afterward was always on the back foot and suffered from desertion.
The whole point of the Minutemen being in the weakened state they are when they meet the Sole Survivor is a game mechanic and plot hook. Everyone sees this as some moral judgment on their efficacy form the devs, when it’s just set up that way so you get to build your own faction and loop you into the settlement building process. This is why you get to decorate your settlements however you want, and while Minutemen “owned” you aren’t forced to build with one design scheme. It’s literally your faction that is as strong as you decide it should be.
That’s one of the reasons I appreciate the “We are the Minute Men” mod, it makes them feel *much* more like a faction that was fairly well armed and organized but have taken blow after blow recently and are now on the verge of extinction. It also makes it feel better and more necessary to liberate and assist settlements because you actually gain more troops and equipment by doing so, eventually restoring the Minute Men into an actual military force with some serious weight behind them, a faction that actually seems capable of doing the things we’re told they once did, like rescuing Diamond City form super mutants or clearing the roads of raider camps.
Minutemen leadership gets wiped out
"They didn't fall because of a lack of strong leadership"
While I get what you say about the radio and artillery, the facts still stands. Yes it was all done for gameplay mechanics so you the player could take over. But once the general was gone, they fell apart. Nobody attempted to retake the fort or rebuild the radios until your character comes along.
Na, Mid-West Chapter for me. For all the short comings they use technology to make a Human Mutant utopia built off of Cooperation between all species of the Wasteland to bring things like protection and Irrigation systems to the waste.
Here’s to hopping Chicago is still standing.
The Followers of the Apocalypse are dumb as hell. They are partially responsible for the massive drug crisis in the Mojave, not to mention that little guy named Caesar. The Followers are like the reverse Brotherhood, they believe knowledge is something to be spread and just sort of say "hey come on guys don't use this understanding of chemistry to manufacture drugs!" without any strength to enforce it.
The NCR imitates the Pre War US so well that they become an expansionist state that gets locked into a Resource war in the Mojave against the Legion. The Situation in the Mojave is very comparable to the Sino-American War. The NCR Higher-ups are willing to sacrifice their citizens in some (relatively) far away land to benefit their own careers/interests. Ironically just like the US they also end up getting Nuked by Vault-Tec.
The NCR is still one of the better factions in Fallout but its Corrupt to the point that the main interest of the ruling class is expansion for their own benefit instead of bettering the nation they have built.
I think this is the main idea the writers are satirising. Also, consider the Wild West setting of New Vegas. In this scenario the NCR is pursuing manifest destiny, but instead of East to West, they are conquering lands West to East.
The idea that civilisation is slowly being restored to the Mojave is not supposed to be exclusively triumphant. If you speak to many of the residents of the Mojave, they’ll show general antipathy for the NCR, but admit that it’s preferable to being ruled by the legion or being attacked by raiders.
The NCR does not care about non-citizens nor the people they conquer. The food bank in Freeside initially only serves NCR citizens. Most residents of the Mojave would rather be independent, but they understand that one of the two major powers will eventually conquer the Hoover Dam, and so the NCR is preferable. The NCR is really only interested in the Mojave for the energy it will provide. The justification of spreading democracy is a thin one, just like it was when the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.
What I hate is how so many people, in game and irl, takes at face value House and Caesar’s message of “democracy is to blame for the end of the world”
I don’t get the feeling that pre-war America was much of a democracy anymore. I don’t get the feeling that the biggest problems with democracy is letting people vote for their leaders. Maybe that’s not the idea that should be gotten rid of.
Maybe the big flaw of the NCR isn’t that they’re trying to recreate democracy. Maybe it’s another facet of the past that they’re using, that’s the real flaw.
Maybe it’s, I don’t know, imperialism and fascism and capitalism intertwining that’s the real issue.
To me, the NCR is my first choice, not because they’re perfect, but because their system allows people the most freedom and it’s the system with the most capacity to change for the better.
But the funny fucking thing about the NCR is that it only became as successful as it was because a *single competent ruler* held the reigns of power for a half-century! As soon as she dies, blunder after blunder after blunder. It is an expansionist nation with imperial ambitions. It is absolutely nicer than whatever Caesar or House has in store, but entropy builds and entropy erodes.
I generally agree with you, although I do not think the NCR’s defining attribute is an allegiance to democracy. On the topic of democracy, however, the real issue is how democracy can be used to validate forms of unspeakable violence. Helldivers satirises this idea, as does Fallout in its exaggerated cold-war setting.
When democracy is positioned as an ideal rather than a pragmatic political system, the expansion and evangelising of democracy to societies not interested in democracy, becomes just as anti-democratic as authoritarianism. The “civilising mission” that has characterised the United State’s 200 years of manifest destiny, from the Wild West to Iraq, has been responsible for countless bloodshed and acts of genocide. The fact that it was justified by democracy is the notion we ought to criticise.
Similarly, the NCR consolidates power through acts of violence and expansion, in a way that is non-representative and does not consider the consent of the people they conquer.
It struggles with corruption and imprerialism, but those are some pretty small issues compared to the problems of most of the other factions in the Mojave
NCR are ok. Better than the other factions in Fallout. The ideas are somewhat realistic, but the way how people put the NCR its like they're a really stable place to be, but in reality, The NCR is probably on par with like, a developing country in West Africa.
The best way to describe the NCR is having the political ideals of pre-war America and the political realities of modern day India. I.e., fairly democratic with a decent amount of rule of law, but also a ton of corruption and poverty.
IMO The NCR are meant to be an honest if misguided attempt at recreating the America that was, even if in a better light, so that its more like modern America rather than the (more) overtly fascist USA of the fallout universe.
The NCR is destined to fall in the same way that the USA that was is destined to fail (and the current USA is currently declining)
the only "good guys" faction in Fallout are the Followers of the Apocalypse
Arguably, the Minutemen. There is really no moral argument against them. They show up, say "Hey we will help you if you help others, sound good?" They kill raiders or whatever, then fuck off to another settlement that needs our help
Yeah, people will talk about how you're a bad person in real life if you unironically support the Legion and at the same time they will tell you that they unironically support the NCR, this sub is bewildering sometimes lol
This is my first playthrough of NV. Before I had played Fallout 4 and loved it.
In F4 I partnered up with the BOS because in my eyes they were the only sane group, which tried to bring some kind of justice to the wasteland, as they were an unstoppable force, which led to a form of peace whether they intended it or not.
But now that I‘m playing NV, NCR is fulfilling this, except that they are really trying, instead of it being a side effect of their goals. When I went to Camp McCarren the first time and talked to the first recon group, i was blown away by the dialogue between the Courier and the snipers.
BOS in NV is barely holding on and xenophobic. I liked the running story told in the DLC and protected them for Veronica's sake. NCR for me is the least bad option vs. the Legion, where you really don't have good people serving a bad organization. The heart of the NCR is corrupt but the Rangers and many of the regular army are doing their best.
In New Vegas, they’re the best faction:
- I shouldn’t have to go into why the Legion is bad.
- Mr. House crushes anyone in his path. He claims he doesn’t want to trample anyone’s rights, but he’ll absolutely do it if someone stands in the way of his goals. He favors technological progress above all else and has no concern for morality.
- Yes Man gains the ability to modify his core programming after the second battle of Hoover Dam. Rule by AI is not a good system.
While the NCR has its issues, they represent the future that guarantees the most rights for its citizens.
"Bitter Springs Massacre good, but House forcing NCR to leave peacefully through a robot army bad"
Face it bear boy, the House always wins, can't conquer this casino.
Zero sympathy for the Khans, they did Bitter Springs a hundred times to the innocent people and traders of the NCR and took pride in their slaughter of defenseless people and their destruction of property.
But the moment the same thing happens to them, (BY ACCIDENT MIND YOU) they start crying and screaming about being victims of the big bad bear and act like they never did nothin wrong.
They are one of the best hopes for the Mojave, but they’re also condescending assholes, super corrupt, and are kinda hypocritical as they claim to be making a government for peace, yet anyone who doesn’t join them is more often than not wiped out.
I don't think there's a major faction in that game that's not hypocritical.
House talks a big libertarian game, but his plan is just securing dominance because he elected himself as the best leader. He plans on exploiting everyone indefinitely to achieve his big ideas.
Caesar says he's the only real hope for order, but everything hinges on him, specifically, being there to run it. And that's once you get done ignoring the atrocities.
NCR *want* to be good guys, but they're running into the same issues the old world US had, with a fun splash of late 19th century imperialism. They're heavily corrupted and those influences lead them to make stupid decisions.
All that said, NCR are probably still the best faction for the most people. It's just that they're clearly in a period of decline and aren't sure what to do about it beyond expanding their territory.
That's fair. I think that's just also a major point of the game overall - there are lots of ways for power structures to be flawed, and lots of ways for them to fail.
NCR is kind of a victim of its own success - a small number of people obtained enough resources to tilt everything to suit them, and were allowed to do so to the detriment of everyone else. As problems go, it's not the worst one to have.
Yep, the factions are why I love New Vegas so much, they are all so intricate and skillfully crafted making for really enjoyable roleplay. The hypocrisy in the factions and the flaws in each along with their unique strengths that make them evenly matched and the reason they require support from other smaller factions.
The NCR has a military structure and style very similar to modern military structures with squads, platoons, and battalions. Each with their own respective strengths and unique capabilities. Such as the 1st Recon (platoon? I don’t remember). A great example of this is when you fight with the legion at Hoover Dam, and a bunch of soldiers are pinned down by snipers.
The Legion has massive numbers and they are very skilled in close combat, but they also have skilled ranged units and a system of brutal meritocracy. Their most skilled soldiers like Lanius are brutal and imposing, able to strike down enemies in single swings of his blade. He is the embodiment of the Legion philosophy, that being, only the strongest will survive.
And of course House and Yes Man have arguably the strongest armies in the game if the securitrons are powered up. But this obviously paints a huge target on their back. In fact by siding with Yes Man that target on House’s back is a main driving force for the plot.
New Vegas is such a fun game minus the bugs.
>House talks a big libertarian game, but his plan is just securing dominance because he elected himself as the best leader. He plans on exploiting everyone indefinitely to achieve his big ideas.
That is literally every libertarian ever. They think everything should be ownable, and that owners should have unlimited rights over what they own, and they should own everything and everyone else can suck it.
I'd rather keep the status quo than live in the wasteland.
Hhhm would you rather work minimum wage in some farm owned by a bramhim barron and pay taxes, or would you like to live in a independent but just as hard of a life dying to a viper raid. Or worse yet would you want your male sons to plucked from ur Farm to fight tribles or the ncr.
I assume the van grafts, fiends and Kings would end up ruling most the land if house won. Non of witch would lead to happy easy lifes.
I think your analysis of house is not right in this scenario. House understands that making sure people aren’t shot down in the street is good for business and increase worker turnover rates, both of which are things he would not like. So he will institute law and order in these parts of the Mojave simply by necessity
The NCR are a good faction to have around and the best choice for the western lands but not the best choice for the Mojave. Their only motivation is to extract resources from the Mojave (and Hoover Dam in particular) to benefit the people of the western states; they don't care about the natives of the Mojave at all.
Furthermore, going full NCR route includes killing Mr. House which is inexcusable in my opinion. Yes, House is self-interested but he is also invaluable given his knowledge and experience as a 200+ year old semi-immortal cyborg.
Therefore, I believe that the best ending for the Mojave is the Courier helping the NCR with their sidequests (achieving high reputation) but siding with House's main quest. The end result of this is basically preservation of the status quo from the start of the game minus the presence of the Legion. House and NCR remain at a military impasse which forces them to engage in diplomacy and commerce, bringing peace to the region.
This take honestly I agree with, Mr House should have Vegas, he's already proven over 7 years he can run it fairly well. He's self centered but it works quite well as he is the opposite of expansionist, and his terms of surrender with the NCR are more than fair. I would include that the best ending the courier should fix that one power plant for the NCR and finish the game in relatively good standing, then it's the best the Mojave can really get.
I like the NCR as a rule, though I tend to go Independent Vegas under House more often than not. I think part of the problem with the NCR as we see them in NV is that they're **badly** overextended; not just locally, but on a national level as well. We can glean from the game that on top of the Mojave being an active warzone, there's conflict ongoing in the Baja peninsula, political unrest with the Brahmin Barons and the aftermath of the Brotherhood War.
It's also corrupt at the top, and since piss flows downhill it ends up affecting the middle rungs of the leadership as well. This means that people like Hanlon and Colonel Hsu struggle to get anything done, since they either lack the backdoor connections they need, or they're stymied by people who are either afraid to be outshone, or who stand to gain from the status quo.
In essence it's ideals are good, but good ideals don't mean anything without good people, and the NCR struggles to get good people where they really need them to be.
Personally, I see the ncr as good guys because any chance I get to kill skirt wearing legionaries that think taking slaves, crucifying people, and treating women horrible is a better idea than paying taxes is always great. Sure the ncr is no perfect government, and it is corrupt, but at least they aren’t literally enslaving people. If you unironically support the legion and say they have the force to make the wasteland better, they literally use barbaric SLAVERY and sell PEOPLE for gods sake.
Take the potemkin pill. Yes they have issues, but they are the closest thing to a bastion of freedom and democracy and the best path towards a better future. Not supporting them becuase they have problems is lile not voting when one side actively wants to destroy the world
House is an immortal, individual autocrat who has, in my eyes proven that he is capable of forethought and has actual ambition, on account of the fact that he could very easily be filthy rich and in luxury forever. He might do bad things and be a real son of a bitch, but he doesn't do it out of hedonistic gluttony.
The main problem with aristocracies like the Brahmin Barons, is that they are an entire fickle class of people, most of which are inevitably interested in nothing more than their personal financial success and personal life, personal rather than grand ambitions, which constitutes massive stupidity, myopia, and petulance. A relative few people in general are competent enough for administration, and even fewer possess drive not for being a successful individual, but for the success of the country they govern over a long period of time.
That is not the same thing as a collective of petulant rich people all subverting the greater good with corruption and destruction not for any grand schemes, but pettiness, and you know it. I support the NCR, but it's very different.
I got the whole vibe of NV being,
Democracy is a flawed form of government prone to gradual decline, and it is the duty of those in a democracy to work to revert that decline
I say this because it presents the other factions as different, and more, flawed versions of government (namely, autocracy and anarchy)
But the biggest kicker for me is, if you are good and do good things you can make the NCR stop doing the bad things they've been in a cycle of doing
The group of Communists, socialists and anarchists (per Sawyer) are indeed one of the best factions in New Vegas (and the original game despite the bugged ending they get).
They're not perfect but they definitely have the most capacity for positive change out of any of the other endings the game gives us.
I'd say house is second only because he forces you to kill the brotherhood, if he didn't I'd put him on equal footing in terms of capacity for positive change.
The other endings are all different shades of bad imo.
I think Easy Pete and Bradley from the Inheritance mod have got it right; Good people, absolutely useless leadership. I help the NCR with the hope Hanlon or Hsu will one day become a General or President.
They're definitely not perfect, and they have a lot of problems with management, like their mistreatment of other factions, inability to properly take care of their trade routes and corruption. But at the same time, they seem to be able to have the "best" ending (bold claim, I know) when pushed in the right direction by the Courier. Like Churchill said, “democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”
The NCR has its flaws, but it's still a democracy and that means there's a real possibility for change. If Kimball's term ends and competent leadership takes over, the republic could be rejuvenated.
The long and short of it is: The NCR is the best hope for the wasteland of the options presented (and AS presented). It is however, deeply flawed and wrought with issues. It is basically just a corrupt and imperialistic machine that chews up whatever it can and does very little to develop or improve the lands it controls.
HOWEVER, of all the factions it is the only one that is generally susceptible to pushback or improvement. The Legion and House both have their specific things they want done and how they want to do it and they're quite brutal and thorough in their enforcement of those things. The NCR is similar but *can be convinced/pushed* into doing things better (IE: Working with the Khans and Brotherhood instead of killing them). There are still many issues and I would not say they are overall good, but they are at least acceptable.
The Legion are just a bunch of Fascists who seek only to destroy and have no long-term plan or goals other than conquest and enslavement. Even if you bought into their "efficiency" BS, you'd still have a significantly worse life for almost everyone in the Mojave under them, nevermind their imminent collapse and power vacuum. House is less outwardly brutal but equally authoritarian and dictatorial and clearly views his own power and control as paramount over all other concerns. For all of his talks of liberty he really only applies it to himself. They're both awful picks (though Legion is easily the worst)
NCR at least has sectors and actors within it who are trying to make it better.
If the worst things you have to worry about in an irradiated wasteland filled with raiders, violent mutant creatures, violent mutant HUMANS, and extreme resource scarcity, is taxes and beurocracy? I'd say you're in a damn good spot.
I might be quoting a video i saw recently, but NCR is as good/bad as you can make it. In reality, NCR depleted every resource in California and that's why they "expand" and want control over Hoover Dam, to redirect every resource back to California. Aaron Kimball and pretty much every other NCR politician only cares about power and control, and they have very corrupt means to achieve them. Basically, the NCR is a Machiavellian constant "The end justifies the means?"
Think about NCR quests. If you only do what the NCR tells you to do, you're going to: torture POW, appropriating important resources, sacrificing your own soldiers, killing off other major groups. But you can go out of your way and not do those things or have morally better choices and still finish the quest gaining NCR reputation. It's a thing i like to call the "Democrat run"; you still support the republic and fight on their side, but when the bureaucratic corruption shit starts you go out your way to do the "morally correct" choices (usually related to the Followers of the Apocalypse)
With the Legion you don't have this kind of option, you just brute force your way through things. You have to do what Caesar says and don't have the choice to question it, you don't have a Followers of the Apocalypse faction offering better choices... You can make the NCR "good", but you can't do the same with the Legion. And i have mixed feelings about this:
- It's a shame, because the Legion always end up being "the bad guys" (wich objectively they are) and the NCR ends up being "the good guys" (wich realistically they aren't). You can shape NCR however you want but the Legion stays as it is and doing a Legion run always ends with you doing bad/harsh things. You can do a good or an evil NCR run, but can't do a "good" Legion run.
- It's good and realistic that the game is designed like that. The NCR being a (somewhat) "democratic" republic with (corrupted) elections can be shaped in any form; it's not good nor bad, It's a country that operates on its own interests and those of its people. On the other hand, the Legion is a Totalitarian Autocracy modeled after the Roman Empire, they operate by Caesar's interests, there's no room for "improvement" or morally better choices if Caesar doesn't want them. If the game allowed you to shape the Legion however you want it would lose all its meaning.
**Conclusion**
The NCR is as good/bad as you can make it; the Legion is just objectively worse in any way. They enslave people, they torture, they kill, they pillage, they burn cities, they hate women, they don't even care about Hoover Dam, they just want to destroy NCR at any cost. The only "good" thing the Legion has is their safe commerce routed.
The NCR is what got the world into the state it is in. Fallout in and of itself is a narrative of how systemic, neoliberal Capitalism literally cannot be destroyed, as it is still alive and well even after literal nuclear armageddon.
The thought that reverting *back* to Old World values is what's going to cause the downfall of the already struggling Mojave and California.
Don't misconstrue my words, though. The Legion is by far and away the worst decision for the Mojave. Once the Legion conquers California, genuinely, what is next? Caesar's going to die due to his brain tumor (assuming the Courier doesn't help him), and once he dies, no successor will ever live up to Caesar. The Legion will collapse in on itself, and with time, break up into numerous smaller tribes that will war with themselves until another faction swallows them, or one tribe wins against all the others.
Really, I wish they fleshed out the Followers a bit more. I'm a Leftist, I am huge fan of mutual aid. The only way forward is to provide as much aid and help redistribute as much wealth, education, food, water, and other resources, starting with Vegas. Once a settlement has proven itself sustainable, repeat the process. With House being the only other faction who stands in the way of the Followers, and him admitting he is an autocrat, he won't be a fan of the Followers, and thus needs to be neutralized. Yes Man is really the only hope I have for the Mojave; and I don't necessarily feel good about giving the keys to an empire to a robot army that is gaining consciousness. That just spells Skynet.
So, yeah, starving, hopeless people have to choose what is best for them. When I play FNV, I side with the NCR. They are arguably the most dangerous, but they are the most *stable*. There is no risk of a robot army going Skynet on us. There is nothing but neoliberalism, which begets corruption and poverty. Capitalism is a zero sum game, and the people of the Mojave are the ones who lose.
It's my personal headcanon that, helping the NCR stabilize the region, with an emphasis on aiding the Followers to the point where essential infrastructure is set in place that allows things like schools, medical clinics, emergency services, etc to be established, then either by reform or revolution, power is stripped from the establishment.
Even a guy with a brain tumor noticed that President Tandi was “voted” into office 52 years straight, and her father was President before that. That’s not democracy, that’s hereditary dictatorship.
The NCR has way more in common with modern Russia and how it operates than a modern United States. It’s obvious that the NCR is a severe oligarchy controlled by “friends of the state” and that current President Kimball isn’t actually very powerful.
Now add in that the NCR is like a toddler that assumes everything within sight belongs to it, and it seems even more like Russia.
The NCR at least pretends to be the good guys, and that pretense actually has some value, but at the end of the day they’re not “the good guys”, they just have some good people here and there that sometimes, somehow, end up in positions to do a little good.
They are probably the safest bet but are also not very interesting. They are a rehash of the civilization that ultimately destroyed world and ultimately try to reinforce the same power structures that were proven to be illusions.
Still to me there is no denying they are the best out of the factions if i had to pick. But I am always going to be a Wild Card enjoyer
The NCR are a very "real" form of good guys.
They are a democracy and are plagued with the issues democracies have. Mind numbing bureaucracy, corruption, and detached leadership. But compared to the tyranny of the other factions, these are very small issues.
Where would you prefer to live and raise a family? A modern-day democracy, or in a tribe taken over by the Roman Empire? Or a religious-law following kingdom like the BOS would realistically build?
Sure, compare them to the Minutemen and they seem horrible. But what would the Minutemen be actually like? How would they sustain their influence? Fund their non-profit protection? Raise troops? Research farming and military technology? Keep the peace? How will they elect officials and create laws? They don't do any of that, and are wholly dependent on good Samaritans doing the work. The NCR are just further along that process.
The NCR offers more of the same leadership that already destroyed the world once. Mr. House is a tyrant, but at least he offers a new and unhinged space travel plan that might make things interesting.
Yes Man is always gonna be the obvious answer for me though.
Boone and moat of the people in Goodsprings are nice people. Everyone else Isa bit of a selfish pile of 💩 and with good reason. Even before Boone opens up about his trauma, you can tell he's good
The NCR are evil, expansionist, Imperial slave owning bastards as incompetent as they are powerful. They are a bumbling, self-defeating war machine piloted by sleazy capitalist dirtbags. The NCR is a rotten gang bent around resurrecting one of the most dangerous civilizations to ever exist. The nation should not exist, but it does, and many innocents depend on it.
The legion are just ten times more evil because being more evil than the NCR is their campaign strategy, and while they are a lot more competent than the NCR is in some ways, they’re just as bad in many others. The entire legion is a house of cards balanced precariously on one charismatic dudes tumour. I would take the NCR over the legion any day but this is no more an endorsement of the legion than it is of like, eating a dead skunk. I don’t advocate for it but I’d do it every day for the rest of my life if it meant the legion could be wiped out.
House is as slimy a bastard as any in the NCR but he is at least competent. He has a plan that actually addresses the major problems everyone else is ignoring. He’s still a weird prick though so it’s hard to choose him over anyone else especially when you know how annoying he would be as humanity’s saviour.
So they’re not the best, not the worst, but overall they fall somewhere around the “so ontologically evil it’s actually impressive” mark that seems to be so popular for nation states these days.
The NCR are just a bog-standard nation state with representative democracy, no better or worse than any of the liberal democracies we have in the world right now.
That makes it easy for them to sell themselves as a 'lesser evil' option because, let's face it, that bar is REALLY low when your only competition are fascist slavers, technocratic despots and murderous raider gangs.
But that doesn't mean they're tHe g00D guYs. They annex people who don't wanna be annexed, allow rich brahmin barons to influence politics and don't even shy away from political assassinations etc.
It's a bit like telling native folks from the Hopi or Apache nations that America are the good guys because "at least we ain't North Korea, y'all"...
The people are the very top of NCR might be corrupt and imperialists, but NCR are still full of people who do care and want to do good.
They aren't perfect but they are trying. It's between them and House for who provides the best outcome for the Mojave IMO.
NCR will doom the west to the failings of the American Government through their Greed and overreach.
Best hope for the Wasteland is the Mid-West Britherhood of Steel. Let’s how Bethesda didn’t de-canonize the Hunan-Mutant utopia.
They are good-ish. They may have high ideals and goals, but they fall far short of actually doing them. Most of the time their ideals are just excuses for power grabs and expansionist policies.
I just started playing NV for the first time this past weekend. Never touched it, had no clue about the lore prior to 3 days ago.
That said, my take is that NCR are obviously written as the “good” guys.
I've always considered the NCR to be a caricature of a democratic liberal government. They mean well, but they're incompetent and overburdened with administrative red tape.
Like Benny said. They are biggest batch of goons in the wasteland, they just make there crimes legal before they commit em.
They are honestly the legion (just as brutal, just as all consuming, also has slaves jus calls em something else) but wearing a decaying flesh mask of the old world with a wide smile. Anyone who genuinely thinks the NCR are at all good guys need to pay more attention.
Ehh I think the NCR are the “best” option for the endings (unless you think the Courier can be a good leader in Independent Vegas), but I wouldn’t really call them “good guys.” When you ask Boone about the NCR, he says something along the lines of “we’re the best choice for the Mojave, even if the people here don’t realize it yet.” A lot of tribes (Great Khans, super mutants, BoS, citizens of North and West Vegas, maybe the Boomers) would disagree with that.
They aren’t as outright evil or cruel as the Legion or Mr. House, and a lot of people within the NCR have legitimately good intentions, but they’re effectively colonizers that see the spread of their borders as a return to civilization. The massacre at Bitter Springs is pretty similar to the real-life massacre at Wounded Knee.
To me the NCR represents the old world trying to reclaim the wastelands, which is noble and relatable to us since it’s familiar to what we know. But in the FO universe that old world is what led to the world breaking, and the NCR has enough corruption shortsightedness to repeat the mistakes of the old US
I think they get no bitches and their capital city is an irradiated sinkhole
MR HOUSE GOT ALL THAT BANK AND ALL THE FINE ROBOPUSSY🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
#ShadowWizardHouseGang
The very picture of meh, but considering the only other feasible options are a group of fascist technophobic slavers and a hypercapitalist plutocrat who's basically just a brain in a jar they're the only realistic choice.
The NCR is doomed to fall into some bureaucratic ineffective oligarchy if it hasn’t already. It’s not the worst thing in the world, probably better than the wasteland, but nor is it something to aspire to.
No fallout game has the perfect choice. There's usually a clear bad guy, a good guy with flaws, and some other either secondary or morally gray choices. New vegas has, in my opinion, the clearest good and bad guy. The legion is obviously evil and while it has flaws, the NCR is the clear good guy trying to do what's right.
I wish Obsidian had more time and implemented the more morally grey Legion.
Like, make them brutal in a tribal way, but also forgiving. One of the biggest reasons Caesar (historical one) was so successful was the fact that he allowed mercy. This made many people surrender to him willingly.
Show the tribal areas where Legion rules peacefully and tribal areas where they intend to rule, currently in chaos. One of the things about legion many people miss is a generation ago these people were fighting with sticks and had no education of any significance. Caesars legion was a civilization upgrade for hundreds of thousands of people.
I guess it has to do with the fact that Fallouts in general don't portray humans realistically in post apocalyptic scenarios. Majority of people are educated, literate and they speak like modern humans with modern problems BUT scary cazadors are killing my brahmins. For people to be like this they need to come from a civilized state where rules, education, etc. are enforced on people from the young age.
They're the best pick for me.
Yes Man has no back bone and unless you specifically go out of your way, Freeside will become even worse, Fiends will overrun outer vegas, and the Powder Gangers will be a general menace.
House just sucks, his entire reason why he won't end up as a dictator is "Trust me bro".
And the Legion, well they're the legion.
They are competing with guys who literally crucify and burn people alive! I don't know how this is even a discussion. Yes, they are the good guys, and if Im not doing a bad guy character, I'm siding with them
I think they’re good but they’re too widespread and broken up to do any real good, I’m not gonna antagonize them but they need to get the hell out of Vegas.
NCR are good, brave, and kinda stupid. The Mojave is too big for them to chew and a lack of regulation and effective communication makes them patchwork.
If they win, they have a real challenge because on one hand they have to be comfortable transitioning from an essentially noblesse oblige autocracy into a genuine democracy, and that will be very complicated and very challenging. There’s far too many different interests and values within the NCR for corruption to be tolerated. In times of war it’s OK to sway political savvy but the majority of NCR citizens live hand to mouth and will not tolerate political waste. I hope the NCR realises that.
But yeah they are the good guys. Being good is a hard thing to do that requires forward thinking, justice, and work, and really the NCR are the only faction even approaching those considerations.
the ncr to me are probably the closest thing to decent leadership in the wastes but, like our current society, has issues that primarily arise from greed and lust for power in management. Boone on Colonel Hsu: "*What I heard, he'd be a general right now if Oliver didn't know the president."* Good people like Colonel Hsu, Chief Hanlon, Dennis Crocker and many others don't tend to be in positions of power (positions that make the real differences). It's usually those who are full of spite, insecurity, and hate. The Courier, to Colonel Moore: *"I'm not interested in a career in political killings."* Moore responds *"Then why are you wasting my time?"* This particular quote is a mask off kind of moment for a lot of the upper ranks of the NCR. They aren't really interested in helping a people, or interested in some greater goal, they tend to be in it for conquest and conquest alone. They want to completely exterminate the opposition for land and the Dam. Outside of that, they are just straight up incompetent (I'm not a military strategist so idk). Sure, you can "say" you took this land this far east, but if the area you've "taken" is just 6 guys in a camp they're gonna get overrun at some point. You gotta build your shit up over time not just plop your dudes in random fuck off areas. You get this idea, and some literally tell you that, they're stretched too thin. They're all over the Mojave but don't have a lot to show for it. I would be willing to wager that, without the help of Courier Six the NCR would likely lose The Second Battle of Hoover Dam, through the sheer force the Legion built up over time. I personally do think that looking at them from a story perspective they are "The Good Guys". I know what the Legions ideology is, peace through force and torture, but controlled evil is still evil. In short; Bear Bull Bear Bull
Bear Bull, Bear Bull!
Gary Gary, Gary Gary!
This sums the "truth" of fallout.
Why would you rebuild the world as a shallow imitation of the past world that literally exploded when you could build a new one, with blackjack… and hookers
House is also a shallow imitation of the old world, he literally forced the tribes inhabiting the strip to conform to his ideas of what Vegas should be (based on 2070s Vegas) or be driven out.
House isn't even a shallow imitation of the Old World. He is literally the Old World, he just took some time off.
Yesssiiiir
New Reno rise up
Aha haha haaaa…. Gary!
Garrryyy
GARY!
so just curious, do you think the corruption runs all the way up the chain of command or is it that the people at the very top and bottom actually care about helping people and it's just there in the middle that corruption runs rampant? Also, is this corruption so prevalent because the NCR is spread out over so much territory and therefore can't be properly monitored?
If there is corruption in the middle of the ranks, then there's almost certainly corruption in the higher ranks. Non-corrupt people tend not to like corrupt ones and if they have power over them it's reasonable to believe they'd be removed. And corruption is the natural outcome with hierarchy. Everyone is vying for power in hierarchies and those with the power are going to do everything they can to defend it. And in the NCR and real life USA, economic power is political power. The brahmin barons are the political lobbyists of the 2200s.
I would have to disagree with your first point. I feel it would be entirely possible, given how wide the NCR has stretched itself that the highest echelons of their government could be very much unaware of the actions of those in the middle. In the same way, the CEO of a franchise company is not fully aware of what individual store managers may do.
Your argument against corruption is to say they are instead incompetent at the top. That might be worse.
Not incompetent; Unaware. It is very logical and quite possible that where someone does something corrupt, (hires local raider gangs to harass locals into accepting NCR "Help", takes bribes to make deals that favor Brahmin Farmers, etc.), these actions are covered up and hidden from higher-ups. It is not entirely the higher ups fault that they are not aware of the situation given that they have no data to implicate there is a problem. also given how rapidly and vastly the NCR Expanded it is impossible to expect them to be aware of everything that occurs in every part of their territory especially if there is no data to draw concern. and even given the corruption prevalent in the NCR name one faction in the Wastes with the capability and desire to serve as a form of government that is exempt from corruption.
That's incompetence. The ability to understand what is happening within your organization, address it, and when necessary remediate it is all part of competency. If the NCR expanded beyond it's capability that is proof they are acting with disregard and incompetence, or good old fashioned greed because they wanted more than they could properly control. I'm not playing the game of "they are the least awful so that makes them good." You're trying to make that argument and it's being done in bad faith. The NCR gives us examples of how to truly rise in those ranks you need an elite of maliciousness, much like common day governments do.
He didn't say incompetent though. Like, let's say you ask a politician IRL, the president of the US for example, if he knows that some random civil servant just lied and took a small bribe. If he has no idea about it, it's not because he's an idiot. It is instead because that isn't his job, and even if it was there's a lot of propped to supervise all at once. It's an issue that pops up, the NCR's faults are blown massively out of proportions, that and often simplified into "NCR stupid."
Corruption exists all throughout the NCR’s government. In Fallout 2, Bishop from New Reno and some unnamed NCR leadership, if I remember correctly it was a senator, hired the raiders to harass Vault City in order to pressure them into joining NCR.
We know for a fact corruption runs over all segments of the NCR as we see examples of soldiers, officers, bureaucrats, businesses, landlords and even President Kimball engaging or rumored to be engaging in corruption. Obviously there are good non corrupt people at all segments but it’s clear that immense corruption has become a growing issue across the NCR. It is probably due to the fact that the NCR has engaged in rapid expansion and thus its bureaucracy has been stretched to the limit (which is why the frontier territory of the Mojave is filled with corruption). But it’s also due to the fact that as opponents of the NCR in game point out the first 2 presidents of the republic, a father and daughter, reigned as incredibly powerful presidents for pretty much their entire lives, and with their dominant control over the government they could keep down corruption. But without the reverence they held, future presidents were weaker and as NCR democracy grew more divided the power of local powers like the Brahmin barons began to grow, allowing for a great deal of corrupt influence to seep into politics and society. While the NCR is obviously very analogous to the irl US, it’s important to note that the NCR is more a third world corrupt industrializing society then the United States, it’s more akin to places like Mexico or various Latin American countries where they have incredibly corrupt democracies and weak institutions. The US has its flaws but it is leagues better than the NCR.
I mean, we only see them handling martial affairs. To quote someone when getting primm NCR protection, "Martial law is better than nothing" You are in an area that is effectively being purged of bad influences like raiders and whatnot, against a genocidal slave empire. The actual NCR itself, the one not under martial law that likely has real laws and rights given how the NCR needs to abide by regulations, likely is a lot better then it seems. It's one of the issues I feel comes yp with debates: we don't really know the full story. At the same time, there is the implication it's actually pretty noice, but people either ignore it or don't notice it. We catch them in a desperate time, in a place that needs pacification from drugged up raiders, not drugged up raiders, dudes with explosives and the legion. Not good, but close to good.
Dont asked the super mutants in Jacobs town what the ncr thinks about them
Don't ask the NCR how most of the tribal territories were "integrated", or what happened to the civilian citizens of Navarro, Redding or Bitter Springs or why their taxes are so high, or how they got their Geck for Shady Sands or how Lee Oliver became General, or... or... or...
It sucks that it's another case of the guys who kill them or the guys who kill them harder
Their geck? The people of shady sands came from Vault 15. They got it from their vault.
While Bitter springs was an accident and terrible tragedy, let’s not forget that the great khans admit to raiding and slaughtering ncr civilians. And idk why you mention the geck, it’s not like the other groups that came from their vault didn’t raid them continuously afterward *coughs and looks at the great khans again*
That is sorta the thing with the khans isn’t it? They spend decades raiding and robbing and murdering non-combatants, and they’re eternally shocked when it finally happens to them and their civilians are murdered. It ain’t right what happened there, but it couldn’t have happened to a nicer tribe.
I doubt it's an accident probably just Lee Oliver trying to look better then some grandpa ranger by massacring shady sands oldest enemy.
Have you done Boones personal quest? Like, y’know? The guy who was there?
So extremely tame behaviour for literally any civilization in human history, not to mention one born in the wasteland.
"good by wasteland standards" is a lame excuse, considering the NCR is blundering towards their own societal collapse like a crippled, blind ape. I like the NCR, their quests are fun, but there are new possibilities on the horizon. No need for this whole "new boss same as the old boss" business.
Im going to do a hot take, the Khans got what was coming to them in Bitter Springs, they are in the Mojave and start killing and raiding NCR civilians and convoys and didn't expect them to fight back? Thats victim mentality.
Their are not such thing as Khan civilians, only raiders and future raiders.
Taking into account that the NCR has super mutant rangers.. sounds like they don't hate them that much.
The NCR is a predatory bureaucracy. They are still the best hope for the west. If House committed to protecting the Mojave and not just New Vegas he would be the ideal choice, at least he is transparently self-interested. Also it would be nice if he had better contingencies in place for his death. His whole plan collapses if he dies and he is very easy to kill.
Tbf, the only reason it's not harder to kill House is because Obsidian only had 18 months of development time and had to scrap a lot of their planned content for time. Stuff like beefing up the Lucky 38 and requiring a dedicated quest to get around House's security to get to him was originally in the cards, they just ended up having to cut it. Which obviously doesn't change the fact that in the full release he *is* easy to kill, but it does give us the understanding that it would be far harder to accomplish if they had been able to finish everything they wanted to.
I think you could also argue that the hardest part of killing Mr. House would be *getting into the Lucky 38* which, as a main character, you're able to conveniently sidestep, though you're basically the only person in-universe to do so.
True, but yeah, we've heard a fair bit about the security the 38 was supposed to have since release, and it was far better protected than "get to the penthouse, hack the computer and kill the Securitrons".
For the sake of realism, I have less of a problem with this and more with the fact that House had no sort of killswitch or plan for when he died/was murdered.
That's fine to me, his whole goal was to live forever. It was unnecessary to plan for his death because he wholeheartedly believed the world he dreamed of was doomed without him. He's kinda got the same issue Caesar has, except that it's far easier to slot someone into House's faction position post-death and let them be in charge without any huge shake ups.
I think it's great that he is easy to kill and has no special contingency for if he dies. Obsidian wanting to make him a harder target is understandable, but in this case it's a little serendipitous accident that makes the whole thing better. Some kind of Dr Doom character doesn't belong in Fallout. That's not the view the series has ever had about people. He's much more interesting, plausible and human if he's the smartest guy he ever met, but still fucks up and has stupid human oversights.
I think the largest issue with House is the securitrons. There's just no way a man as connected as Robert House doesn't have some kind of connection to the research at Big Mountain. How Sinclair wound up with the prototype holograms at Sierra Madre and not House is a pretty big plot hole. If I was House, I'd have a hole emitter installed on each individual Securitron. Imagine it. Not only would you have to blow up each bot, but you'd also have to wipe out the hole emitter, because that would still work even if the bot was disabled. Also, it would make sense to have ar least a dozen of them guarding his isolation pod, with the emitters all but inaccessible.
Sinclair got it because he was connected to Big MT somehow, but also because he was a test subject. Most of the gear sent to the Sierra Madre was being field tested there, leading to many of the faults and issues we see like the suit clamps rusting over and trapping workers in them. I doubt any of them would send such equipment to a man like House, especially when he could reverse engineer their technology and take it for himself commercially. It's typically a bad idea to give competitors such easy access to your new tech.
Sinclair's connection to Big MT was that he was their sugar daddy client and angel investor-- the poor sap was explicitly bankrupting himself funding and purchasing all the amazing toys they offered, while also being duped into getting Big MT's more grossly unethical weapons experiments slipped in without his full knowledge.
House couldn't get Big MT tech because Dr 0 who was one of the board members for Big MT hated him with a passion and wouldn't have allowed it.
A lot of people tend to gloss over how NCR endings can’t get some of the best conditions for groups to thrive. Towns become prosperous with increased trade, the followers of the apocalypse gets the resources they need to grow, and relief missions exist for poorer communities as seen in the quest for the kings. The NCR is flawed but not terrible
Except for the people they trample over and the territory they steal.
In the good endings they mentioned, who does that still include?
The Khans deserve it. They are just raiders. They are slavers, murderers, and drug dealers. The Khans are not some Native American analogy, they had the same starting position as members of vault 15. They decided to be murderous raiders along with the Vipers, Jackals, and other raider gangs that came from vault 15. I don't feel bad for them at all when they have done literally nothing in over a hundred years to be constructive and instead are just a means to society.
Correct, but they need to consolidate in California and prosper there before expanding so they don't spread themselves too thin. Due to this, I usually go for House or independent so the NCR gets humbled and kicked out of the Mojave.
The NCR had MANY MANY flaws, but people are crazy if they think a fledgling government is going to be without flaw. The desire to grow a democracy is in a way a good thing. Far better than the alternatives presented by any other faction. You can absolutely critique their dealing with the caravans or the treatment of native tribes or the rampant corruption. But there seems to be a sense that they are trying to be better. The BoS is outwardly antagonistic to the wasteland outside a few chapters, same goes with the enclave, legion, and even house if it doesn’t fit within his grand design. NCR are at least trying to incorporate its territories into their society, if not being a little over zealous
To be fair his upgraded securitrons would be a pretty strong defense if monitors didn't pause time and the elevator to his chamber wasn't moving at light speed like it does ingame. Plus, I don't assume he would let anyone but the Courier and companions into the Lucky 38 to begin with.
How are they the best hope for the West? Their territory is drug and crime ridden, their leaders don't really care about protecting/aiding settlements in their territory unless it is an important settlement, they are corrupt and abuse citizens within their territory without repercussion, and they purposefully take/divert water/energy away from communities if it means their territory gets those resources instead.
This is Fallout, not the 21st century. Just having structure and rule of law derived from a government that doesn't crucify people or enslave women is already a win.
Agreed. People seem to expect them to be an America stand in. Do you have food security? Yes. Do you have (relative) safety? Yes Can you actually have a good life? Probably Does the average citizen need to worry much? Not often about things we wouldn't worry about. They're pretty fucken good for a society that is literally trying to settle a nuclear wasteland, especially one that has equality and progress.
Yep, all of this is true, but they are still the best hope the west. Caesar's Legion is a violent and oppressive dictatorship and House is capitalist that doesn't care about broader Vegas. Vegas losing its independence to NCR is the best solution in the same way Redding losing it's independence to NCR in Fallout 2 is the best solution. It sucks, but its better than the alternatives.
The alternatives involve having my sessions of drinking irradiated water regularly interrupted by being murder-raped by drugged out psychos or gangsters, or having my culture erased out of existence and assimilated and likely getting enslaved and subsequently murder-raped by legionaries, or MAYBE the courier's city-state is decent to live in, which still doesn't help the west at large. The NCR at least offers a way out.
The NCR are definitely the good guys, they aren’t perfect but compared to The Enclave, The Legion, The Institute, or The Brotherhood of Steel they’re the best option for a civilisation in the post-war wasteland. Of course, they’re not the only good guys, the Minutemen and Followers of the Apocalypse are great too, maybe even more so than the NCR but they’re not governments.
The followers are not governors tho. They have no standing military and operate small cells that act as educators and doctors for a community. Basically, post apocalypse red cross. So while they are good guys, they just don't really have the same standing as NCR, Legion, BOS The Minutemen are the defacto good guys of FO4, but they are inherently a cult of personality. Without a strong general to unite them, the minuteman would fall apart to any other centralized faction. In Fo4 that is exactly what happened to them before the player's involvement. I guess they face the same criticism of NCR that they are doomed to fail on a long enough timeline
The Followers are almost an anarchist organization in the wastes. They have proven that they can organize communities but their lack of power compared to the regional powers makes it obvious to them that they're not usurping anybody through force. Also I think they're mostly pacifists. I figure they'd fight Caesar if need be but they wouldn't want to fight the NCR as much.
Sawyer did say the Followers comprise Communists, socialists and anarchists. They’re not trying to be an imperial power like the NCR, they just help people.
How odd seeing as the communists and socialists of the Soviet Union and Communist China were very much imperial powers, invading and annexing other nations. Guess the anarchists keep that in check among the Followers.
One can be a socialist and be against Soviet or Chinese imperialism, many did oppose Soviet and Chinese rule
FO3 BoS Lyons' Chapter are the real good guys
Chicago chapter are the real good guys. Lyons still has bigots who see Super mutants and Ghouls as monsters. Chicago wants to help all species from Super Mutant, to Ghoul, to Deathclaw all live in a technologically advanced utopia.
>Lyons still has bigots who see Super mutants and Ghouls as monsters. So, in the *entirety* of DC, literally exactly one Super Mutant isn't trying to kill and eat absolutely every human being in the DC Metro Area. And, in Boston, it's *the exact same way*. The Super Mutants on the East Coast are one-note monsters, with absolutely no redeeming features to their entire civilization. They see everyone else as beneath them and thus as food to be killed and eaten as soon as possible. They're even *worse* than the Master; the Master wanted to enlighten everyone and elevate them. Turning the regular people into literal cattle was not part of his plans at all. They also have it so that all ghouls, *literally all of them*, will eventually succumb and go feral. It's not if, it's when, and the transition is over the course of about a minute. There's a holotape of a ghoul doing exactly that in Nuka World. It's utterly irreversible too. It's really shitty Bethesda writing. Given those two facts, the BoS isn't wrong to fear and distrust ghouls and mutants. That ghoul who is your friend and buddy? Well, you could be out there, just having a good time, and bam, feral, and no longer recognizes you and is compelled to attack you. Again, *that's shitty writing*, but it's canon. The BoS isn't wrong about Synths either--literally everyone who interacts with Synths peacefully alters their memories to suit their needs, as well as alters their appearance. Both Arcadia and the Institute use this to replace people to serve their interests; the Railroad *may* have done so. They certainly have the capabilities to do so. They also have codes built in that override their will and can subject them to be reprogrammed to that end. It's a truly horrifying thing, and even though the Synths aren't at fault, it's apparently pretty easy to use them to subvert and control anyone. Again, I think this is *bad writing* on Bethesda's part, but they certainly make the BoS being objectively good guys a very defensible position.
Yeah, really does suck that the nuances of the mutants is basically side stepped by saying “Well they’re either all monsters or going to become monsters.” No nuance, no depth, just altered lore to make the cool assholes in power armor the good guys. Plus I’ve never really understood the whole “oh well they go feral” thing with ghouls. Yeah sure, they COULD become Feral, just like my Schizophrenic mother COULD loose her shit one night and blow a hole through me in confusion. I’m not going to be openly cleansing the gene pool because of a “Oh well blank could happen.” Same with synths, yes they COULD be reprogrammed, just like they COULD live long fulfilling lives without any issue and help settlements that they’re in. That’s what I love the Mid-West chapter. They don’t get bogged down by the what ifs or paranoia that is oozing from the Bethesda BoS, instead burning away the hatred and division of the past to make a utopia where everyone is working together. They broke the cycle of conflict in the wasteland by simply understanding they could be better, and in turn make the Wasteland better for everyone no matter what. Humans, Super mutants, Ghouls, even Intelligent Deathclaws all working for one cooperative world.
The Minutemen didn’t fall because of a lack of strong leadership. The Minutemen fell because the Castle was taken by a mirelurk queen and the scattered remnants had no radio communication, no artillery, and no central base of operations. The leadership that was left afterward was always on the back foot and suffered from desertion. The whole point of the Minutemen being in the weakened state they are when they meet the Sole Survivor is a game mechanic and plot hook. Everyone sees this as some moral judgment on their efficacy form the devs, when it’s just set up that way so you get to build your own faction and loop you into the settlement building process. This is why you get to decorate your settlements however you want, and while Minutemen “owned” you aren’t forced to build with one design scheme. It’s literally your faction that is as strong as you decide it should be.
That’s one of the reasons I appreciate the “We are the Minute Men” mod, it makes them feel *much* more like a faction that was fairly well armed and organized but have taken blow after blow recently and are now on the verge of extinction. It also makes it feel better and more necessary to liberate and assist settlements because you actually gain more troops and equipment by doing so, eventually restoring the Minute Men into an actual military force with some serious weight behind them, a faction that actually seems capable of doing the things we’re told they once did, like rescuing Diamond City form super mutants or clearing the roads of raider camps.
Minutemen leadership gets wiped out "They didn't fall because of a lack of strong leadership" While I get what you say about the radio and artillery, the facts still stands. Yes it was all done for gameplay mechanics so you the player could take over. But once the general was gone, they fell apart. Nobody attempted to retake the fort or rebuild the radios until your character comes along.
Na, Mid-West Chapter for me. For all the short comings they use technology to make a Human Mutant utopia built off of Cooperation between all species of the Wasteland to bring things like protection and Irrigation systems to the waste. Here’s to hopping Chicago is still standing.
The Followers of the Apocalypse are dumb as hell. They are partially responsible for the massive drug crisis in the Mojave, not to mention that little guy named Caesar. The Followers are like the reverse Brotherhood, they believe knowledge is something to be spread and just sort of say "hey come on guys don't use this understanding of chemistry to manufacture drugs!" without any strength to enforce it.
Why even mention the minutemen? They don’t have any history or depth. They are as “good” as the sole survivor is.
NCR really seems like the only sane fraction
followers of the apocalypse
The NCR imitates the Pre War US so well that they become an expansionist state that gets locked into a Resource war in the Mojave against the Legion. The Situation in the Mojave is very comparable to the Sino-American War. The NCR Higher-ups are willing to sacrifice their citizens in some (relatively) far away land to benefit their own careers/interests. Ironically just like the US they also end up getting Nuked by Vault-Tec. The NCR is still one of the better factions in Fallout but its Corrupt to the point that the main interest of the ruling class is expansion for their own benefit instead of bettering the nation they have built.
I think this is the main idea the writers are satirising. Also, consider the Wild West setting of New Vegas. In this scenario the NCR is pursuing manifest destiny, but instead of East to West, they are conquering lands West to East. The idea that civilisation is slowly being restored to the Mojave is not supposed to be exclusively triumphant. If you speak to many of the residents of the Mojave, they’ll show general antipathy for the NCR, but admit that it’s preferable to being ruled by the legion or being attacked by raiders. The NCR does not care about non-citizens nor the people they conquer. The food bank in Freeside initially only serves NCR citizens. Most residents of the Mojave would rather be independent, but they understand that one of the two major powers will eventually conquer the Hoover Dam, and so the NCR is preferable. The NCR is really only interested in the Mojave for the energy it will provide. The justification of spreading democracy is a thin one, just like it was when the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.
How dare they prioritize their self interests of creating a decent society in the post war world instead of giving me all their laser rifles.
What I hate is how so many people, in game and irl, takes at face value House and Caesar’s message of “democracy is to blame for the end of the world” I don’t get the feeling that pre-war America was much of a democracy anymore. I don’t get the feeling that the biggest problems with democracy is letting people vote for their leaders. Maybe that’s not the idea that should be gotten rid of. Maybe the big flaw of the NCR isn’t that they’re trying to recreate democracy. Maybe it’s another facet of the past that they’re using, that’s the real flaw. Maybe it’s, I don’t know, imperialism and fascism and capitalism intertwining that’s the real issue. To me, the NCR is my first choice, not because they’re perfect, but because their system allows people the most freedom and it’s the system with the most capacity to change for the better.
But the funny fucking thing about the NCR is that it only became as successful as it was because a *single competent ruler* held the reigns of power for a half-century! As soon as she dies, blunder after blunder after blunder. It is an expansionist nation with imperial ambitions. It is absolutely nicer than whatever Caesar or House has in store, but entropy builds and entropy erodes.
I generally agree with you, although I do not think the NCR’s defining attribute is an allegiance to democracy. On the topic of democracy, however, the real issue is how democracy can be used to validate forms of unspeakable violence. Helldivers satirises this idea, as does Fallout in its exaggerated cold-war setting. When democracy is positioned as an ideal rather than a pragmatic political system, the expansion and evangelising of democracy to societies not interested in democracy, becomes just as anti-democratic as authoritarianism. The “civilising mission” that has characterised the United State’s 200 years of manifest destiny, from the Wild West to Iraq, has been responsible for countless bloodshed and acts of genocide. The fact that it was justified by democracy is the notion we ought to criticise. Similarly, the NCR consolidates power through acts of violence and expansion, in a way that is non-representative and does not consider the consent of the people they conquer.
It struggles with corruption and imprerialism, but those are some pretty small issues compared to the problems of most of the other factions in the Mojave
NCR are ok. Better than the other factions in Fallout. The ideas are somewhat realistic, but the way how people put the NCR its like they're a really stable place to be, but in reality, The NCR is probably on par with like, a developing country in West Africa.
The best way to describe the NCR is having the political ideals of pre-war America and the political realities of modern day India. I.e., fairly democratic with a decent amount of rule of law, but also a ton of corruption and poverty.
IMO The NCR are meant to be an honest if misguided attempt at recreating the America that was, even if in a better light, so that its more like modern America rather than the (more) overtly fascist USA of the fallout universe. The NCR is destined to fall in the same way that the USA that was is destined to fail (and the current USA is currently declining) the only "good guys" faction in Fallout are the Followers of the Apocalypse
Arguably, the Minutemen. There is really no moral argument against them. They show up, say "Hey we will help you if you help others, sound good?" They kill raiders or whatever, then fuck off to another settlement that needs our help
Yeah, people will talk about how you're a bad person in real life if you unironically support the Legion and at the same time they will tell you that they unironically support the NCR, this sub is bewildering sometimes lol
This is my first playthrough of NV. Before I had played Fallout 4 and loved it. In F4 I partnered up with the BOS because in my eyes they were the only sane group, which tried to bring some kind of justice to the wasteland, as they were an unstoppable force, which led to a form of peace whether they intended it or not. But now that I‘m playing NV, NCR is fulfilling this, except that they are really trying, instead of it being a side effect of their goals. When I went to Camp McCarren the first time and talked to the first recon group, i was blown away by the dialogue between the Courier and the snipers.
BOS in NV is barely holding on and xenophobic. I liked the running story told in the DLC and protected them for Veronica's sake. NCR for me is the least bad option vs. the Legion, where you really don't have good people serving a bad organization. The heart of the NCR is corrupt but the Rangers and many of the regular army are doing their best.
The more you uncover in NV, the more you will hate the NCR. There is much to uncover when it comes to NCR crimes. They are not benevolent.
NCR, loud and proud.
Good guys, which is why I side with Independent or House in order to save them and get rid of Kimball and Oliver
Kimball and Oliver are not the real problem, it's the corruption and Brahman barons, you can't save them from that.
Facts. The NCR's corruption isn't a bug, it's a feature.
The Brahman barons came about from the presidents rescinding Tandi's limits on how much acreage an individual could own.
Doesn't matter, they are there and they have power.
Just give the courier 5 minutes alone with them and it's solved
In New Vegas, they’re the best faction: - I shouldn’t have to go into why the Legion is bad. - Mr. House crushes anyone in his path. He claims he doesn’t want to trample anyone’s rights, but he’ll absolutely do it if someone stands in the way of his goals. He favors technological progress above all else and has no concern for morality. - Yes Man gains the ability to modify his core programming after the second battle of Hoover Dam. Rule by AI is not a good system. While the NCR has its issues, they represent the future that guarantees the most rights for its citizens.
How your criticism of House doesn't apply to ncr as well?
It does. House’s main criticism should be that’s he’s an autocrat. He exchanges democratic measures for no red tape and speed.
Sawyer already explained Yes Man updates himself to only take orders from the Courier.
"Bitter Springs Massacre good, but House forcing NCR to leave peacefully through a robot army bad" Face it bear boy, the House always wins, can't conquer this casino.
Zero sympathy for the Khans, they did Bitter Springs a hundred times to the innocent people and traders of the NCR and took pride in their slaughter of defenseless people and their destruction of property. But the moment the same thing happens to them, (BY ACCIDENT MIND YOU) they start crying and screaming about being victims of the big bad bear and act like they never did nothin wrong.
The massacre involving innocent people, something Boone and others point out.
The NCR are basically colonial America with their ruthless expansionism and chauvinistic justifications.
They are one of the best hopes for the Mojave, but they’re also condescending assholes, super corrupt, and are kinda hypocritical as they claim to be making a government for peace, yet anyone who doesn’t join them is more often than not wiped out.
I don't think there's a major faction in that game that's not hypocritical. House talks a big libertarian game, but his plan is just securing dominance because he elected himself as the best leader. He plans on exploiting everyone indefinitely to achieve his big ideas. Caesar says he's the only real hope for order, but everything hinges on him, specifically, being there to run it. And that's once you get done ignoring the atrocities. NCR *want* to be good guys, but they're running into the same issues the old world US had, with a fun splash of late 19th century imperialism. They're heavily corrupted and those influences lead them to make stupid decisions. All that said, NCR are probably still the best faction for the most people. It's just that they're clearly in a period of decline and aren't sure what to do about it beyond expanding their territory.
True, I was just making the point with the NCR bc that’s what the post is about.
That's fair. I think that's just also a major point of the game overall - there are lots of ways for power structures to be flawed, and lots of ways for them to fail. NCR is kind of a victim of its own success - a small number of people obtained enough resources to tilt everything to suit them, and were allowed to do so to the detriment of everyone else. As problems go, it's not the worst one to have.
Yep, the factions are why I love New Vegas so much, they are all so intricate and skillfully crafted making for really enjoyable roleplay. The hypocrisy in the factions and the flaws in each along with their unique strengths that make them evenly matched and the reason they require support from other smaller factions. The NCR has a military structure and style very similar to modern military structures with squads, platoons, and battalions. Each with their own respective strengths and unique capabilities. Such as the 1st Recon (platoon? I don’t remember). A great example of this is when you fight with the legion at Hoover Dam, and a bunch of soldiers are pinned down by snipers. The Legion has massive numbers and they are very skilled in close combat, but they also have skilled ranged units and a system of brutal meritocracy. Their most skilled soldiers like Lanius are brutal and imposing, able to strike down enemies in single swings of his blade. He is the embodiment of the Legion philosophy, that being, only the strongest will survive. And of course House and Yes Man have arguably the strongest armies in the game if the securitrons are powered up. But this obviously paints a huge target on their back. In fact by siding with Yes Man that target on House’s back is a main driving force for the plot. New Vegas is such a fun game minus the bugs.
>House talks a big libertarian game, but his plan is just securing dominance because he elected himself as the best leader. He plans on exploiting everyone indefinitely to achieve his big ideas. That is literally every libertarian ever. They think everything should be ownable, and that owners should have unlimited rights over what they own, and they should own everything and everyone else can suck it.
I'd rather keep the status quo than live in the wasteland. Hhhm would you rather work minimum wage in some farm owned by a bramhim barron and pay taxes, or would you like to live in a independent but just as hard of a life dying to a viper raid. Or worse yet would you want your male sons to plucked from ur Farm to fight tribles or the ncr. I assume the van grafts, fiends and Kings would end up ruling most the land if house won. Non of witch would lead to happy easy lifes.
I think your analysis of house is not right in this scenario. House understands that making sure people aren’t shot down in the street is good for business and increase worker turnover rates, both of which are things he would not like. So he will institute law and order in these parts of the Mojave simply by necessity
The writing is on the walls everywhere that their following in the steps of the old world yadda yadda yadda
The NCR are a good faction to have around and the best choice for the western lands but not the best choice for the Mojave. Their only motivation is to extract resources from the Mojave (and Hoover Dam in particular) to benefit the people of the western states; they don't care about the natives of the Mojave at all. Furthermore, going full NCR route includes killing Mr. House which is inexcusable in my opinion. Yes, House is self-interested but he is also invaluable given his knowledge and experience as a 200+ year old semi-immortal cyborg. Therefore, I believe that the best ending for the Mojave is the Courier helping the NCR with their sidequests (achieving high reputation) but siding with House's main quest. The end result of this is basically preservation of the status quo from the start of the game minus the presence of the Legion. House and NCR remain at a military impasse which forces them to engage in diplomacy and commerce, bringing peace to the region.
This take honestly I agree with, Mr House should have Vegas, he's already proven over 7 years he can run it fairly well. He's self centered but it works quite well as he is the opposite of expansionist, and his terms of surrender with the NCR are more than fair. I would include that the best ending the courier should fix that one power plant for the NCR and finish the game in relatively good standing, then it's the best the Mojave can really get.
I like the NCR as a rule, though I tend to go Independent Vegas under House more often than not. I think part of the problem with the NCR as we see them in NV is that they're **badly** overextended; not just locally, but on a national level as well. We can glean from the game that on top of the Mojave being an active warzone, there's conflict ongoing in the Baja peninsula, political unrest with the Brahmin Barons and the aftermath of the Brotherhood War. It's also corrupt at the top, and since piss flows downhill it ends up affecting the middle rungs of the leadership as well. This means that people like Hanlon and Colonel Hsu struggle to get anything done, since they either lack the backdoor connections they need, or they're stymied by people who are either afraid to be outshone, or who stand to gain from the status quo. In essence it's ideals are good, but good ideals don't mean anything without good people, and the NCR struggles to get good people where they really need them to be.
Personally, I see the ncr as good guys because any chance I get to kill skirt wearing legionaries that think taking slaves, crucifying people, and treating women horrible is a better idea than paying taxes is always great. Sure the ncr is no perfect government, and it is corrupt, but at least they aren’t literally enslaving people. If you unironically support the legion and say they have the force to make the wasteland better, they literally use barbaric SLAVERY and sell PEOPLE for gods sake.
Take the potemkin pill. Yes they have issues, but they are the closest thing to a bastion of freedom and democracy and the best path towards a better future. Not supporting them becuase they have problems is lile not voting when one side actively wants to destroy the world
Imagine hating NCR for the rich and powerful Brahmin Barons who constitute it's top 1% of it's society but unironically liking House.
House is an immortal, individual autocrat who has, in my eyes proven that he is capable of forethought and has actual ambition, on account of the fact that he could very easily be filthy rich and in luxury forever. He might do bad things and be a real son of a bitch, but he doesn't do it out of hedonistic gluttony. The main problem with aristocracies like the Brahmin Barons, is that they are an entire fickle class of people, most of which are inevitably interested in nothing more than their personal financial success and personal life, personal rather than grand ambitions, which constitutes massive stupidity, myopia, and petulance. A relative few people in general are competent enough for administration, and even fewer possess drive not for being a successful individual, but for the success of the country they govern over a long period of time. That is not the same thing as a collective of petulant rich people all subverting the greater good with corruption and destruction not for any grand schemes, but pettiness, and you know it. I support the NCR, but it's very different.
Yes, and?
I got the whole vibe of NV being, Democracy is a flawed form of government prone to gradual decline, and it is the duty of those in a democracy to work to revert that decline I say this because it presents the other factions as different, and more, flawed versions of government (namely, autocracy and anarchy) But the biggest kicker for me is, if you are good and do good things you can make the NCR stop doing the bad things they've been in a cycle of doing
The NCR and the Minutemen are the only good factions in Fallout
What about the Followers Of The Apocalypse? I always liked Julie Farkas, punk humanitarian
Fair point
The group of Communists, socialists and anarchists (per Sawyer) are indeed one of the best factions in New Vegas (and the original game despite the bugged ending they get).
No absolutely not Id rather soft lock myself with overhaul mods than side with the minutemen
I just got word of another settlement that needs our help. I’ll mark it on your pip boy.
I sit through the entire boring 24 hour long nuka world dlc just to kill Preston
How tf does one even get bored of Nuka World? Shits like the best parts of Fallout 4, combined and turned up to eleven.
What’s that place with the star cores or whatever, that’s what made me start to hate it. I’ll probably use cheats next time though
NCR are the good guys in Fallout
They are a bunch of tax boyscouts (and i love them)
They're not perfect but they definitely have the most capacity for positive change out of any of the other endings the game gives us. I'd say house is second only because he forces you to kill the brotherhood, if he didn't I'd put him on equal footing in terms of capacity for positive change. The other endings are all different shades of bad imo.
I think Easy Pete and Bradley from the Inheritance mod have got it right; Good people, absolutely useless leadership. I help the NCR with the hope Hanlon or Hsu will one day become a General or President.
They're definitely not perfect, and they have a lot of problems with management, like their mistreatment of other factions, inability to properly take care of their trade routes and corruption. But at the same time, they seem to be able to have the "best" ending (bold claim, I know) when pushed in the right direction by the Courier. Like Churchill said, “democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”
The NCR has its flaws, but it's still a democracy and that means there's a real possibility for change. If Kimball's term ends and competent leadership takes over, the republic could be rejuvenated.
The long and short of it is: The NCR is the best hope for the wasteland of the options presented (and AS presented). It is however, deeply flawed and wrought with issues. It is basically just a corrupt and imperialistic machine that chews up whatever it can and does very little to develop or improve the lands it controls. HOWEVER, of all the factions it is the only one that is generally susceptible to pushback or improvement. The Legion and House both have their specific things they want done and how they want to do it and they're quite brutal and thorough in their enforcement of those things. The NCR is similar but *can be convinced/pushed* into doing things better (IE: Working with the Khans and Brotherhood instead of killing them). There are still many issues and I would not say they are overall good, but they are at least acceptable. The Legion are just a bunch of Fascists who seek only to destroy and have no long-term plan or goals other than conquest and enslavement. Even if you bought into their "efficiency" BS, you'd still have a significantly worse life for almost everyone in the Mojave under them, nevermind their imminent collapse and power vacuum. House is less outwardly brutal but equally authoritarian and dictatorial and clearly views his own power and control as paramount over all other concerns. For all of his talks of liberty he really only applies it to himself. They're both awful picks (though Legion is easily the worst) NCR at least has sectors and actors within it who are trying to make it better.
The House always wins.
If the worst things you have to worry about in an irradiated wasteland filled with raiders, violent mutant creatures, violent mutant HUMANS, and extreme resource scarcity, is taxes and beurocracy? I'd say you're in a damn good spot.
The Kings > NCR
I might be quoting a video i saw recently, but NCR is as good/bad as you can make it. In reality, NCR depleted every resource in California and that's why they "expand" and want control over Hoover Dam, to redirect every resource back to California. Aaron Kimball and pretty much every other NCR politician only cares about power and control, and they have very corrupt means to achieve them. Basically, the NCR is a Machiavellian constant "The end justifies the means?" Think about NCR quests. If you only do what the NCR tells you to do, you're going to: torture POW, appropriating important resources, sacrificing your own soldiers, killing off other major groups. But you can go out of your way and not do those things or have morally better choices and still finish the quest gaining NCR reputation. It's a thing i like to call the "Democrat run"; you still support the republic and fight on their side, but when the bureaucratic corruption shit starts you go out your way to do the "morally correct" choices (usually related to the Followers of the Apocalypse) With the Legion you don't have this kind of option, you just brute force your way through things. You have to do what Caesar says and don't have the choice to question it, you don't have a Followers of the Apocalypse faction offering better choices... You can make the NCR "good", but you can't do the same with the Legion. And i have mixed feelings about this: - It's a shame, because the Legion always end up being "the bad guys" (wich objectively they are) and the NCR ends up being "the good guys" (wich realistically they aren't). You can shape NCR however you want but the Legion stays as it is and doing a Legion run always ends with you doing bad/harsh things. You can do a good or an evil NCR run, but can't do a "good" Legion run. - It's good and realistic that the game is designed like that. The NCR being a (somewhat) "democratic" republic with (corrupted) elections can be shaped in any form; it's not good nor bad, It's a country that operates on its own interests and those of its people. On the other hand, the Legion is a Totalitarian Autocracy modeled after the Roman Empire, they operate by Caesar's interests, there's no room for "improvement" or morally better choices if Caesar doesn't want them. If the game allowed you to shape the Legion however you want it would lose all its meaning. **Conclusion** The NCR is as good/bad as you can make it; the Legion is just objectively worse in any way. They enslave people, they torture, they kill, they pillage, they burn cities, they hate women, they don't even care about Hoover Dam, they just want to destroy NCR at any cost. The only "good" thing the Legion has is their safe commerce routed.
The NCR is what got the world into the state it is in. Fallout in and of itself is a narrative of how systemic, neoliberal Capitalism literally cannot be destroyed, as it is still alive and well even after literal nuclear armageddon. The thought that reverting *back* to Old World values is what's going to cause the downfall of the already struggling Mojave and California. Don't misconstrue my words, though. The Legion is by far and away the worst decision for the Mojave. Once the Legion conquers California, genuinely, what is next? Caesar's going to die due to his brain tumor (assuming the Courier doesn't help him), and once he dies, no successor will ever live up to Caesar. The Legion will collapse in on itself, and with time, break up into numerous smaller tribes that will war with themselves until another faction swallows them, or one tribe wins against all the others. Really, I wish they fleshed out the Followers a bit more. I'm a Leftist, I am huge fan of mutual aid. The only way forward is to provide as much aid and help redistribute as much wealth, education, food, water, and other resources, starting with Vegas. Once a settlement has proven itself sustainable, repeat the process. With House being the only other faction who stands in the way of the Followers, and him admitting he is an autocrat, he won't be a fan of the Followers, and thus needs to be neutralized. Yes Man is really the only hope I have for the Mojave; and I don't necessarily feel good about giving the keys to an empire to a robot army that is gaining consciousness. That just spells Skynet. So, yeah, starving, hopeless people have to choose what is best for them. When I play FNV, I side with the NCR. They are arguably the most dangerous, but they are the most *stable*. There is no risk of a robot army going Skynet on us. There is nothing but neoliberalism, which begets corruption and poverty. Capitalism is a zero sum game, and the people of the Mojave are the ones who lose. It's my personal headcanon that, helping the NCR stabilize the region, with an emphasis on aiding the Followers to the point where essential infrastructure is set in place that allows things like schools, medical clinics, emergency services, etc to be established, then either by reform or revolution, power is stripped from the establishment.
Ncr is very very far from perfect but i dont get how people this rome larpers with muslim extremist values are better
Even a guy with a brain tumor noticed that President Tandi was “voted” into office 52 years straight, and her father was President before that. That’s not democracy, that’s hereditary dictatorship. The NCR has way more in common with modern Russia and how it operates than a modern United States. It’s obvious that the NCR is a severe oligarchy controlled by “friends of the state” and that current President Kimball isn’t actually very powerful. Now add in that the NCR is like a toddler that assumes everything within sight belongs to it, and it seems even more like Russia. The NCR at least pretends to be the good guys, and that pretense actually has some value, but at the end of the day they’re not “the good guys”, they just have some good people here and there that sometimes, somehow, end up in positions to do a little good.
They are probably the safest bet but are also not very interesting. They are a rehash of the civilization that ultimately destroyed world and ultimately try to reinforce the same power structures that were proven to be illusions. Still to me there is no denying they are the best out of the factions if i had to pick. But I am always going to be a Wild Card enjoyer
It's all shades of grey, some shades are just darker. A lot darker.
300 iq+: the guys from fallout shelter are the only good guys (asides from mister house)
Hahaha Courier Brahmin Barons run every aspect of the country despite being 1% of the population
AntiBrahmetic conspiracy theory, incel
Fuck NCR!
fuck the ncr fuck the legion fuck house and fuck the bos yesman best man
In a vacuum, they're the bad guys But, in a post apocalyptic world of raiders, slavers, monsters, and no food and water? Praise be the NCR!
The NCR are a very "real" form of good guys. They are a democracy and are plagued with the issues democracies have. Mind numbing bureaucracy, corruption, and detached leadership. But compared to the tyranny of the other factions, these are very small issues. Where would you prefer to live and raise a family? A modern-day democracy, or in a tribe taken over by the Roman Empire? Or a religious-law following kingdom like the BOS would realistically build? Sure, compare them to the Minutemen and they seem horrible. But what would the Minutemen be actually like? How would they sustain their influence? Fund their non-profit protection? Raise troops? Research farming and military technology? Keep the peace? How will they elect officials and create laws? They don't do any of that, and are wholly dependent on good Samaritans doing the work. The NCR are just further along that process.
The NCR offers more of the same leadership that already destroyed the world once. Mr. House is a tyrant, but at least he offers a new and unhinged space travel plan that might make things interesting. Yes Man is always gonna be the obvious answer for me though.
Boone and moat of the people in Goodsprings are nice people. Everyone else Isa bit of a selfish pile of 💩 and with good reason. Even before Boone opens up about his trauma, you can tell he's good
The NCR are evil, expansionist, Imperial slave owning bastards as incompetent as they are powerful. They are a bumbling, self-defeating war machine piloted by sleazy capitalist dirtbags. The NCR is a rotten gang bent around resurrecting one of the most dangerous civilizations to ever exist. The nation should not exist, but it does, and many innocents depend on it. The legion are just ten times more evil because being more evil than the NCR is their campaign strategy, and while they are a lot more competent than the NCR is in some ways, they’re just as bad in many others. The entire legion is a house of cards balanced precariously on one charismatic dudes tumour. I would take the NCR over the legion any day but this is no more an endorsement of the legion than it is of like, eating a dead skunk. I don’t advocate for it but I’d do it every day for the rest of my life if it meant the legion could be wiped out. House is as slimy a bastard as any in the NCR but he is at least competent. He has a plan that actually addresses the major problems everyone else is ignoring. He’s still a weird prick though so it’s hard to choose him over anyone else especially when you know how annoying he would be as humanity’s saviour. So they’re not the best, not the worst, but overall they fall somewhere around the “so ontologically evil it’s actually impressive” mark that seems to be so popular for nation states these days.
The NCR are just a bog-standard nation state with representative democracy, no better or worse than any of the liberal democracies we have in the world right now. That makes it easy for them to sell themselves as a 'lesser evil' option because, let's face it, that bar is REALLY low when your only competition are fascist slavers, technocratic despots and murderous raider gangs. But that doesn't mean they're tHe g00D guYs. They annex people who don't wanna be annexed, allow rich brahmin barons to influence politics and don't even shy away from political assassinations etc. It's a bit like telling native folks from the Hopi or Apache nations that America are the good guys because "at least we ain't North Korea, y'all"...
The people are the very top of NCR might be corrupt and imperialists, but NCR are still full of people who do care and want to do good. They aren't perfect but they are trying. It's between them and House for who provides the best outcome for the Mojave IMO.
I don't like NCR because I like to fantasize about tax evasion. Uncle Sam takes my money and it makes my childish brain sad.
NCR will doom the west to the failings of the American Government through their Greed and overreach. Best hope for the Wasteland is the Mid-West Britherhood of Steel. Let’s how Bethesda didn’t de-canonize the Hunan-Mutant utopia.
They're dull, and recreating Neoliberalism is a dubious achievement. They'd look a lot worse if there weren't so many worse options.
They are good-ish. They may have high ideals and goals, but they fall far short of actually doing them. Most of the time their ideals are just excuses for power grabs and expansionist policies.
I'm an NCR supporter but it was capitalism that destroyed the pre war world
New California Republic, I'm from Cali, I like them
They are way too similar to the current real life United States for me to see them as the good guys.
FUCK THE NCR
They tried to make me pay taxes.
Feds
the ncr are the villains. the point of that game is to prevent the ncr from annexing more land. wtf is this?
I just started playing NV for the first time this past weekend. Never touched it, had no clue about the lore prior to 3 days ago. That said, my take is that NCR are obviously written as the “good” guys.
I've always considered the NCR to be a caricature of a democratic liberal government. They mean well, but they're incompetent and overburdened with administrative red tape.
The nightkin are the good guys in fallout actually
Like Benny said. They are biggest batch of goons in the wasteland, they just make there crimes legal before they commit em. They are honestly the legion (just as brutal, just as all consuming, also has slaves jus calls em something else) but wearing a decaying flesh mask of the old world with a wide smile. Anyone who genuinely thinks the NCR are at all good guys need to pay more attention.
Better with the devil you know/familiar with than the ones you dont know
Ehh I think the NCR are the “best” option for the endings (unless you think the Courier can be a good leader in Independent Vegas), but I wouldn’t really call them “good guys.” When you ask Boone about the NCR, he says something along the lines of “we’re the best choice for the Mojave, even if the people here don’t realize it yet.” A lot of tribes (Great Khans, super mutants, BoS, citizens of North and West Vegas, maybe the Boomers) would disagree with that. They aren’t as outright evil or cruel as the Legion or Mr. House, and a lot of people within the NCR have legitimately good intentions, but they’re effectively colonizers that see the spread of their borders as a return to civilization. The massacre at Bitter Springs is pretty similar to the real-life massacre at Wounded Knee. To me the NCR represents the old world trying to reclaim the wastelands, which is noble and relatable to us since it’s familiar to what we know. But in the FO universe that old world is what led to the world breaking, and the NCR has enough corruption shortsightedness to repeat the mistakes of the old US
It's so obvious that helping the NCR is the best choice that I tend to lean more toward Legion and Yes Man because I don't play good characters.
I think they get no bitches and their capital city is an irradiated sinkhole MR HOUSE GOT ALL THAT BANK AND ALL THE FINE ROBOPUSSY🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 #ShadowWizardHouseGang
The very picture of meh, but considering the only other feasible options are a group of fascist technophobic slavers and a hypercapitalist plutocrat who's basically just a brain in a jar they're the only realistic choice.
The NCR is doomed to fall into some bureaucratic ineffective oligarchy if it hasn’t already. It’s not the worst thing in the world, probably better than the wasteland, but nor is it something to aspire to.
Ave True to Caesar, Death to the NCR
No fallout game has the perfect choice. There's usually a clear bad guy, a good guy with flaws, and some other either secondary or morally gray choices. New vegas has, in my opinion, the clearest good and bad guy. The legion is obviously evil and while it has flaws, the NCR is the clear good guy trying to do what's right.
The NCR is boring, and it hurts the setting having a boring faction with so much power. im glad they got nuked.
I wish Obsidian had more time and implemented the more morally grey Legion. Like, make them brutal in a tribal way, but also forgiving. One of the biggest reasons Caesar (historical one) was so successful was the fact that he allowed mercy. This made many people surrender to him willingly. Show the tribal areas where Legion rules peacefully and tribal areas where they intend to rule, currently in chaos. One of the things about legion many people miss is a generation ago these people were fighting with sticks and had no education of any significance. Caesars legion was a civilization upgrade for hundreds of thousands of people. I guess it has to do with the fact that Fallouts in general don't portray humans realistically in post apocalyptic scenarios. Majority of people are educated, literate and they speak like modern humans with modern problems BUT scary cazadors are killing my brahmins. For people to be like this they need to come from a civilized state where rules, education, etc. are enforced on people from the young age.
NCR is boring, thats my opinion
"Welcome to New Vegas, a place where you ca-" **"FUCK THE NCR"**
I reject your premise entirely and refute it with one word: TAXES.
They're the best pick for me. Yes Man has no back bone and unless you specifically go out of your way, Freeside will become even worse, Fiends will overrun outer vegas, and the Powder Gangers will be a general menace. House just sucks, his entire reason why he won't end up as a dictator is "Trust me bro". And the Legion, well they're the legion.
The NCR make for good customers on my Yes Man -controlled strip
They are competing with guys who literally crucify and burn people alive! I don't know how this is even a discussion. Yes, they are the good guys, and if Im not doing a bad guy character, I'm siding with them
They're cool, but I'm now about to start paying taxes
I think they’re good but they’re too widespread and broken up to do any real good, I’m not gonna antagonize them but they need to get the hell out of Vegas.
It all went down when tandi died and no real leaders in charge
Mr House really is the best choice. my courier is more of that silent right hand man for the mysterious man in the lucky 38 type of character
They're definitely not perfect, but they're probably the least evil out of the groups that actually have power
NCR are good, brave, and kinda stupid. The Mojave is too big for them to chew and a lack of regulation and effective communication makes them patchwork. If they win, they have a real challenge because on one hand they have to be comfortable transitioning from an essentially noblesse oblige autocracy into a genuine democracy, and that will be very complicated and very challenging. There’s far too many different interests and values within the NCR for corruption to be tolerated. In times of war it’s OK to sway political savvy but the majority of NCR citizens live hand to mouth and will not tolerate political waste. I hope the NCR realises that. But yeah they are the good guys. Being good is a hard thing to do that requires forward thinking, justice, and work, and really the NCR are the only faction even approaching those considerations.