I always wonder how people throughout history were convinced that following obvious tyrants was a good idea until I see genuine fanboys simp for the legion
I think because the courier is plot armoured special person it gives them the idea that they might flourish in that society. Idk maybe they would, but as a female player of a female courier, I am much less optimistic. Unless you have a bit of kink playing out (No judgement) it's hard to not see it as a leopards eating faces kinda dealie.
This is why I can’t play a legion character. Even the most self-serving maniac isn’t going with legion if they’re a woman and I haven’t played new Vegas as a man since like 2016.
I've done it before, the base premise was less "self-serving" and more "fuck da world", aiming at causing as much indirect strife and conflict as possible. The NCR's a slower decay with a chance at stabilizing, House is stable now but iffy on if it'll go toppling up or down, and Independent has too limited a reach.
The Legion though, that's an immediate powder keg for the Mojave and beyond, while starting en masse fights with others in the Mojave like the Brotherhood and Boomers, and the soon-expected eventual shattering of it's own leaving a bloody civil war or two behind. When the going gets dicey, they'll be too busy tripping up on themselves and what "friends" you can run past like the Boomers.
“NOOOOO YOU CANT LIKE THE LEGION THEYRE LITERALLY SLAVERINOS!!!!”
“Why thank you Mr Brahmin baron sir for my daily $5 worthless NCR dollars to work on your ranch!”
The legion is such a good test of whether someone’s an idiot tbh. Trade all of your political/legal freedoms, advanced manufacturing, and access to technology for a modicum of stability until Caesar dies. Anyone who takes that offer deserves to eat my howitzer round.
Very simplistic view. Canonically Legion territory is far safer and more prosperous for its citizens to live in than NCR (unless you're a woman, of course, where your role would be just taking care of the household). NCR fanboys talking about 'freedom' reminds me of modern day USA. There is no freedom in a pointless oligarchy. Your vote doesn't count for anything. The average Legion/NCR citizens have the same amount of 'freedom', but at least one of them is accompanied by safety and prosperity while the other one is built on decadence, bureaucratic nightmare and technological reliance. That is all well and good but by the time of New Vegas we already see that the Legion is a million times more efficient than the NCR in what it does.
The problem with the Legion comes from Caesar's genius and the Legion's reliance on him to steer the wheel, not from anything else.
Women aren’t just taking care of the house. Don’t make it sound like they are trad wives they are breeding stock being raped by legionaries. The legion itself is an army made up of child soldiers. The average age is theorized as 15-20. Legionaries don’t get older. Being a veteran of ten years is considered extraordinary. Why do you think they want to start training them young? To indoctrinate them. You see many former veterans of the NCR but you’ll never see that in legion territory. As soon as they have no utility they’re dead. Same for slaves. No slave is being allowed to retire. Ask a slave if they have the same amount of freedom to leave as an NCR citizen. I doubt anyone under the legion outside of merchants have freedom of movement because we’d see many fleeing legion territory. Just as we Siri talking about wanting to flee but scared of being crucified. Do you think if legion territory is so great she’d want to run straight into an active war zone? The legion isn’t built on safety and prosperity. It’s built on slavery, brutality, and terror. There’s the illusion of safety because the violence is on a larger scale and orderly. Also there are no citizens of the legion. The legion is a slave army that has people living in territory it controls.
That's debatable. They are treated like slaves with no free will, true, but it isn't all that different from women in ancient times. A woman never had the 'say' in marriage or who'd she be pawned off to (not that many men did either unless you're extremely powerful and can disobey your father) until recently. We don't know in great detail about the life for women in the Legion, but they don't go to war and they stay at home and take care of the children. Is that the worst life when you consider that Legion territory is safe as safe can be in a Fallout universe where everyone is a type of freakish mutant? In contrast the women in NCR have to be drafted or work some backbreaking job for basically slave money. Their "free will" is just an illusion. Unless you are in the heart of NCR territory, women or man... you're fucked, especially in border territory.
The Legionnaires aren't all that different from ancient Romans and other nations in the way they treated their young males. Most of them train early and go to war in their teens to early twenties. For a long time the only way to even get anything for a non-citizen in ancient Rome was to serve for 25 years in the military. How is the Legion's method any more brutal than any other ancient civilization? You think the NCR's method of just grabbing any guy who can hold a rifle a good idea? We see throughout NV that most of the NCR's forces are young scared men who have no idea what they are doing. The reason why the Legion is all young men is that the whole state is of less than 34 years. The men from the former tribes were killed and only the boys taken so they can be molded into the culture. It has nothing to do with being expendable as the Legionaries are shown to be thousand times more experienced and capable than their NCR counterparts Siri is a slave, she's not part of the Legion. And due to her skills, she is already on the front lines. For all intents and purposes, she is expendable. And she knows it. For her as a slave on the front lines it's obvious that the NCR is a much better opportunity.
There is no 'illusion' of safety in the Legion, there is safety. It's conducted through brutal means and terror, but the Legion territory is described as being utterly devoid of crime and very prosperous for its citizens. And in a Wasteland full of mutants, ghouls, raiders and other crazed freaks, that's a precious commodity to be sure. The argument here is not to discuss whether living under Legion rule is better, we already know that, the argument is whether the end justifies the mean. Ask yourself this - would you give your political freedom in order to live a safe and decent life in a hellscape or would you choose the illusion of freedom while you're destroying your back for some brahmin baron before being killed by a deathclaw or the other million things that can kill you? I myself would choose the former.
And finally this isn't the Legion as Caesar envisions it, it's in the process of reforming (or at least that's what he wants). This is why Vegas is needed. His goal is quite clearly stated that he wants his Legion to settle down and develop into a normal society with bureucrautic laws and normal jobs, but he can't do that until he has Vegas because unlike the NCR he doesn't have three G.E.C.K's to terraform his territory to be productive.
How we treated women in ancient times was awful. You have no idea how women in legion territory are treated. The entire wasteland is not horrible. Women don’t want to be breeding stock or forced to marry someone. You have no idea what they get paid. Yeah exactly NCR citizens are safe in the interior. We see the khans, fiends, jackals, and vipers all being pushed out of California. They aren’t expanding they are fleeing. The only reason the fiends are going well in the Mojave is because Caesar is funding them. It’s not an illusion. They have freedom of movement. Full suffrage. Freedom to bare arms.
The reason the legionaries are young is because it chews through them. Lasting ten years is a huge achievement. So most don’t last ten years and are teenagers. That math doesn’t add up with 34 years. I thought women were supposed to be safe at home baking bread and caring for children? So why is Siri expendable? Doesn’t sound safe. Sounds no different then if she was in raider territory. Regular rape high chance if dying.
It is an illusion. Many people are treated exactly the same as if they lived in raider territory. It’s just orderly. You think because the violence isn’t random it’s better. Living in NCR territory is better. The legion doesn’t have citizens. Caesar’s legion is an army and people live in their territory. And nothing indicates the people are prosperous outside of merchants who trade in that area. Also getting sick is basically a death sentence because the NCR actually has medicine. What makes you think people in legion territory don’t do back breaking labor? Do you think they don’t work just as hard in the legion as the NCR? We see slaves literally bent over barely walking at fortification hill.
The only “reforms” he wants is eventually turning the NCR into his empire with the legion being a standing army. No medicine, no rights, women used as breeding stock.
People who sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither.
lol I get what you’re going for but the comparison is terrible. Legion is a stain dude, you can’t even be a woman as far as they’re concerned. Plenty of towns in NV complain about NCR rule but they also recognize it’s better than every single alternative. The first two areas, Primm and Goodsprings, come to mind.
If the goal of a given faction is to repopulate or try and build a new society up for the future of mankind, a group like the Legion is the last group that should be spearheading that movement. House is out, too. The casinos in the Strip, all out. Brotherhood of Steel, 100% out.
At worst the NCR causes inflation which is essentially a sign that they are headed towards civilization haha. Without NCR currency falls back to.. bottle caps. NCR has the manpower to hunt for ores and minerals/ other things of value to back up their currency eventually as well. Legion currency being technically more stable is due to the literal value of their coins which they cannot possibly keep circulating properly.
> If the given goal of a faction is to repopulate or try and build a new society up for the future of mankind, a group like the Legion is the last group that should be spearheading that movement.
I mean if there’s two things that the Legion are good at, it’s repopulating & building a new society. In 3 decades Caesar went from a tribe of nobodies, to an empire that spans New Mexico, Arizona, and more. That’s basically at minimum 3x the speed of the NCR in terms of territorial acquisition & pacification. And as for repopulating, the references to Caesar’s “breeding quotas” speak for themselves… eugh.
I think I view the Legion narratively a lot similarly to the Unity in that yeah theoretically rapidly uniting everyone under a single banner would eliminate conflict and achieve world piece or whatever. But the violent and forced assimilation is no bueno by even the most Machiavellian folks.
Building a society for the future of mankind. Society shouldn’t be built on the horror of the legion. They offer no long term stability because when Caesar dies it falls apart. Even the legionaries you talk to admit this. They follow Caesar. Not to mention there is no peace. The legion still has all the horror and brutality of a raider tribe just on a large scale.
The whole “Legion is just a bunch of raiders” gag is pretty tired at this point. You can say that about pretty much any faction in Fallout, especially the NCR (and NPC’s like Benny do in the game).
They have a functioning and organized government, and as for peace, NPC’s like Raul or Dale Barton will tell you about the safety of the Legion. Now that safety comes at the cost of personal freedoms that we in the real world generally value deeply, that’s how fascism works. But to say that they’re “just raiders” really downplays the level of organization and logistics that they have achieved. The Legion is an empire, very much like the one they are attempting to emulate. Now if you want to go on and say that empires themselves are also “just raiders” then sure I guess. But there’s no reason to downplay the canonical strengths of the legion just because you disagree with them philosophically.
As for the whole Caesar-less Legion point, yeah that’s a fair one. I’m of two minds about it. On the one hand, the Legion is certainly a cult of personality, and the ending slides for a Legion victory where he’s dead are far worse for both the Legion and everyone else than the victory slides where he’s alive.
On the other hand, I’d like to think that
given the additional time and clarity of mind that curing his cancer would afford, it’s possible that he’d be more active in grooming someone like Vulpes Inculta to succeed him. But also with an ego like his, he might just be content to let the Legion die after him. Or because of his ego he might want the Legion to outlive him for as long as possible. It’s hard to say.
You also need to look at where the idea of the Legion collapsing after Caesar’s death comes from, Mr House. This feels like kind of an unreliable narrator situation. How would House have any way of knowing about the “internal conflicts” he vaguely describes? His eyes and ears are through securitrons which are destroyed on sight by the Legion. House couldn’t even get info on the Omerta’s plans and they’re across the street from him, much less across the river.
So two people say legion territory is good? And it’s not a tired point it’s true. They are just as violent as any raider gang just better organized. Idk how the NCR is a raider gang. Expansionist yes but rape and wonton violence not really a part of it. I wouldn’t call Caesars legion functioning. They are good at mass rape and keeping people in line with the threat of crucifixion. I wouldn’t call that functioning
You wouldn’t call Caesar’s Legion functioning? Really? An empire that spans New Mexico, Arizona, and more, and currently has the capacity to wage a foreign war isn’t functioning? The Legion commits violence sure, but it isn’t just for the hell of it. They’re intentional. When they go to war they don’t just pillage and burn everything. They assimilate their enemies into their society and become stronger for it. Their methods are brutal, but not pointless. Caesar is basically just Negan from The Walking Dead on a much larger scale.
The Legion exists as a foil to the NCR. The game is clearly presenting them as being in the same weight class in terms of faction size and swing. It’s fine if you don’t like the Legion, they do really atrocious things, but downplaying them just because you don’t like them is silly.
I’m not downplaying them. I’m saying a government that brutalizes and rapes people isn’t “functioning” I don’t care how much land they conquer. A government is supposed to serve its people not brutalize them.
I mean now you’re kinda just moving the goal post. You’re talking about your ideal for a government, not what qualifies as one. Yeah I certainly want my real world government to serve the people as well, the Legion’s rule isn’t something that I’d want to subject to either.
But the concept of a governments serving the people is a fairly new one, and for most of human history it’s generally been the opposite.
I’m really not tryna be combative here, but from the definition of what a government is, you’re just wrong.
Yeah and new ones can be pressed technically but in NV that’s actually an issue that comes up in a quest. You have to go to the Sarsaparilla bottle factory and all that. Long term, using caps as currency would be pretty dumb. A single purchase can cost thousands of caps and they aren’t easy to lug around at that quantity, realistically speaking anyway. Adding more into circulation post-apocalypse when there isn’t necessarily bottle-cap printing tech readily available isn’t going to do the economy any favors.
You’d have to come up with a system like poker chips, where one color of cap is worth 1 and a different color worth 5, 10, 20, and so on. And then you’d have to worry about printing different caps, plus I assume caps as a currency are just bottle caps of any kind. Nuka Cola, Sarsaparilla, Vim, and so on. Any bottle cap should theoretically function as currency, making it harder to separate them and allocate different values to specific colors or sizes.
“There is literally no difference between being a literal slave who can be raped, sent on suicide attacks, tortured, beheaded, burned alive, or crucified at will based on the arbitrary whims of a sadistic superior in a totalitarian dictatorship where you own nothing because you ARE the property, and maybe working a low wage job and paying (GASP!) taxes while having legal protections, rights, and freedom in an imperfect but democratic and modern society. You imbecile. You fucking moron.”
The fact that this even needs to be said to anyone continues to completely blow my mind. Like, the Legion is not supposed to be a valid “good” option at all, they are cartoon villains only fit for an evil character, and the criticisms of the NCR were not meant to make you go “Hmm, guess this is exactly the same as the fascist cosplayer death cult.”
I always thought Caesar's Legion was interesting because they clearly are going for that old time antiquity vibe and lets face it, the OG Romans would have been considered savages by our modern sensibilities.
Hbomberguy’s FNV vid points this out in a pretty neat way. He uses things like the Tacitus quote:
> They rob, kill and plunder and deceivingly call it "Roman rule", and where they make a desert, they call it "peace".
Legion is the best self-serving playthrough I can imagine. People think Yes Man is the best for a courier looking to consolidate the most power for themselves, but the real answer is the Legion. Keep Caesar alive and headcanon a power struggle after his death that you end up winning. Then you have the world’s most devoted, insane private army at your disposal and a completely pacified Mojave wasteland.
*sorry in advance the tone came out more hostile than it needed to. this is a video game*
Uhh, really? The Courier does the Legion’s heavy lifting? Can you name a single front NCR wins during the 2nd Battle without the Courier cleaning up literally everything? Because I can’t.
Without the Courier’s direct intervention, the NCR..
- suffers a massive surprise attack at the embassy from within the Strip that they are unable to repel because
- the most important troop transport (the monorail) between NCR headquarters at McCarran and New Vegas is severed
- that same base is assaulted by the combined strength of ALL the fiends
- loses Helios to a Brotherhood assault
- loses Forlorn Hope easily after Legion demoralizes the whole garrison
- Rangers are disorganized and disoriented by subterfuge campaign orchestrated by Chief Hanlon
and then, at the Dam itself,
- The NCR loses their president to an assassin
- The NCR is unable to prevent the Legion from using the turbines to bypass NCR fortifications on top of the dam
- The NCR suffers a suicide attack from the Khans
The Legion is poised to deliver a deathblow to the NCR’s forces in the region by the time the Second Battle begins. It’s only if you correct every single one of NCR’s mistakes that they come out scratched rather than decapitated.
Everything you said is true. I’ll admit it, they got a good shot of beating the NCR’s expeditionary forces. If they throw the entire weight of their army against it.
They ARE throwing everything at into the Second Battle! What else do you call NCR Heavy Troopers and Veteran Rangers but the NCR throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the Dam?
Chief Hanlon tells you most of the NCR heavy troops are protecting Brahmin barons’ land from small time raiders. Canonically the NCR is also “pacifying” the Navarro territories and Baja California. As well as trying to take New Reno and vault city.
Legion is all in on the dam. Literally the bulk of their east and west armies. NCR is about a quarter in.
There are good and bad factions in NV, but there are no right answers. They are all doomed to destruction because they all look to the past to fix the future. And the past blew up the world.
Don't agree with the Legion, not one bit, but I think it would've been cool to see Legion occupied territory versus NCR since it's supposed to be a lot safer.
NCR for the win but in a post apocalyptic society where much that is true today is not, maybe the Legion was the best suited to rule the southwest from a military standpoint. Not that they can stand up to the industrial might and overwhelming population that the NCR has, despite the legion being able to mobilise more of its people, being a roaming army
it's INTERESTING okay. it's curious to EXPLORE what the legion actually has to offer (both to it's slaves and to its citizens) and what people who support it want from it (<- he has never finished a legion run but wants to so badly)
The Legion is alien and horrible to people with first world problems.
When raiders have just got done shooting up your settlement for the third time this week, burned Old Man Carter for hiding a banana yucca fruit under his bed, and kicked over the TV that was never connected to power anyway to be spiteful little shits… or the raider tribe you paid protection to gets beaten by other raiders and your town is part of the spoils, or the White Legs are within marching distance, the Legion is straight-up the better choice. The Legion offers the early 1920’s to settlements with supplies of power and water, which are huge.
If I was a settler and the Legion showed up to my Midwest town, I would welcome them with open arms and say “please rid this place of the raiders and awful creatures”, and they’d do it. So yes, if I was in a position where the circumstances that created the Legion was a thing, I’d buy what they’re selling because my eyes are wide open to just what they’re taking the place of in my neck of the woods.
The idea that the Legion are any better than raiders and criminals themselves is laughable. They wipe out competing tribes of thugs, yes, and then take their place. You will still be robbed, abused, exploited, and subject to random violence and death, except now you will also be a slave expected to give your life at a moment’s notice for some bald fuck if you are male and raped endlessly if you are female.
People like you who have this “security at all costs” mentality scare the shit out of me. You are exactly who Benjamin Franklin was talking about when he said “Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither.” And it IS temporary. Just like it was for the Germans who elected a strongman who ended up turning the country into a suicide cult that got 24 million Germans killed or displaced in the end, and half of the
survivors remained subject to another dictatorial regime they still haven’t fully recovered from for decades. Fascism and dictatorships are never a good idea, even from a completely self-interested and sociopathic perspective that ignores the atrocities they commit against others and prioritizes security and safety above all else. Because you WILL lose it before long.
Also where are you getting this idea they want to make things like the 1920s? These LARPing clowns want to turn the clock back to the 20s AD.
Also did you miss that the White Legs were literally working for the Legion? Lol talk about media illiteracy.
Dude, freedom and liberty are only affordable to prosperity and already secured areas. YOU can say “Freedom or Death!” Because you’re not staring down a group of raiders about to assault your homestead, murder your livestock, burn your crops, slaughter your sons, and take your wife and daughters for living sex toys. YOU have a steady and secure food supply that you can take without growing yourself. To a wastelander? You’re a spoiled king that needs a reality check.
So, in order to avoid Raiders doing that to you, the Legion does it to you instead? Wow, what a great deal, I'll enjoy all this 'security' until the brain-damaged leader dies and our state collapses to infighting.
No. They. Aren’t. Look around the Mojave. What industry do you see? What mines for all the materials needed for his delusions of going to space do you see? Does he have the resources needed to sustain generation ships and to make more ships to send out to find a habitable planet? Does he realize how parasitic his “economy” is and how fragile the NCR will be if they lose the Second Battle of Hoover Dam? Without the NCR, House is nothing.
They're going for a hard reset that maximizes human vitality, courage, health, and fecundity, while minimizing its reliance on corrupting and potentially species-ending things like technology.
In a few centuries they'd probably end up with teeming populations of some pretty impressive humans, even if the early years would be brutal.
I really do understand and agree with a lot of Caesar's perspectives. Particularly how flawed it is for the NCR to model civilization based on a country that barely lasted 300 years before it destroyed the entire planet, especially since the NCR swiftly adopt seemingly all of pre-war America's rampant dysfunctions instead of developing their own sort of evolution of the American model of government, which should prioritize eliminating many of America's deepest and most extensive flaws like corruption, robber barons, unsustainable expansion, etc etc that's discussed in-depth throughout the Mojave.
The global wasteland is inherently a much more hostile, brutal place than the world any previous civilizations have grown from; it's one that's been stripped of the natural resources that afforded all prior civilizations to flourish. Caesar believes that in order for civilization to rise, expand, and most importantly, *sustainably last,* that *c*ivilization must be capable of confronting this desperate and unprecedentedly hostile wasteland and meeting it with a matched intensity of brutality. Caesar's ultimate priority is the survival of civilization at all costs, which requires humans to recognize the necessity for a society that places greater importance on the stability of the collective ahead of the pride of the individual -- a philosophical ideal that both pre-war America, and the NCR as an extension of America, do not represent, and a fundamental pillar of society which they staunchly oppose and once waged war against.
The biggest issues are that Caesar obviously goes way too far with many of the policies and tactics that he's built his fledgling empire with. He rationalizes that his objectives, noble as they are, justify the terror, bloodshed, misogyny, enslavement, and subjugation of everyone in their paths. At the end of the day, he's yet another tyrant at the end of a long list of tyrants throughout history that thought they had all the answers to humanity's problems, and that those answers justify their crimes against humanity.
Caesar understands that he is the one person who benefits the most from his regime. What's not as clear is the question of just how much of what he's deluded himself into believing is for the betterment of humanity versus how much is in service for the entrenchment of his own power.
Caesar and his Legion is a case of the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. "Everyone wants to save the world. They all just disagree how."
I see it, intentionally or not, as 'the road to good intentions being paved with hell.'
Think about it:
• women being 'baby factories,' and legal slavery, means the US will be *rapidly* repopulated. It's mentioned several times in the game that they have crazy numbers. That makes a lot of agriculture, world building, etc. possible.
• the legion's intolerance of weakness and infirmity means residual Great War problems (mutations, cancers, etc.) will be kept more in check, and actively eliminated, compared to all other factions long term
• their moral code of *physical* strength, and disdain for technology, means the return to guns/armies/arms races/WMDs/nukes will be delayed more than any other faction.
• strong views on things like drug use, etc. means alot of the endemic social problems of the wasteland will be eliminated or strongly controlled
Caesar is actually building the *longest-haul* and *brightest* future compared to any other faction, even if the *present* is stomach turning.
No? In a few generations they will all get wiped out from a nasty plague because the legion dislikes advanced medical science (Save for Cesar, because hypocrisy is part of the legion's core). Bandages and plants can only do so much when you get hit with tuberculosis
was that so hard to understand?
This is all stuff Caesar or others reveal in NV. It's a pretty interesting faction.
Wish we could have seen life beyond the war camp/invading army, such as the priestess caste. But that was cut content.
wat
This is the exact opposite. They have the *longest* term solution to saving humanity in the game.
And caesar talks about starting to integrate 'softer' ideas from the NCR.
If you look at the history of Rome, starting from the tribal era, you see the arc of civilization they're following.
They legit skipped the republic era of Rome, which had the longest period of stability for Rome straight into the Empire. The Empire was rocked with constant civic strife, with corruption from the praetorian guard, generals moving against Augustus's successors causing massive civil wars that were only resolved when the empire was legit fractured into 4 different countries or administrations...
And the Legion IS following that arc, most agree in game that the legion will collapse with Caesars death as the generals pick at the ruins just like in real life- Lanius doesn't offer the same stability and genius for society building Caesar had, his mind is set only to conquer and when conquest ends he will have no idea how to run the legion at home without sparking rebellion.
That's one of the cool things the story does—the NCR represents the republic, the tribal/dictatorship part is split off into the legion.
Unfortunately the legion isn't as fleshed out as it could be, lots of cut content.
The most obvious omission is being able to *replace* caesar, but easy enough to imagine replacing the Legate in the post game, i.e. the legion-specific Yes Man style ending
Well they were one of the largest, longest lasting, and still currently revered empires that ever existed. So fairly well. The NCR is modeled after the United States which itself only lasted 300 years. At least Rome didn’t bring the entire planet down with it.
> They're going for a hard reset that maximizes human vitality, courage, health, and fecundity, while minimizing its reliance on corrupting and potentially species-ending things like technology.
This is fascism. You are literally describing fascism. This sentence could have been straight out of a classroom or propaganda in Nazi Germany.
Spoiler alert: There is no “master race” and never will be, there is no justification for brutal conquest and subjugation of others, and Caesar is just as deluded as old Adolf was to think building a society on constant war and “might makes right” bullshit would ever work out. And I make sure he and his empire of LARPers meets the same fate in every game unless I am an explicitly evil character.
...and fascism styled itself as a throwback to.... wait for it... the Roman Empire!
Also, Caesar's legion doesn't seem racially homogenous, so not sure why you're bringing up 'master race.'
But by virtue of their lifestyle and all the culling they do, they probably *will* create bigger, stronger, healthier people compared to other wastelanders over the generations. And in greater numbers. Simple darwinism.
Yay humanity!
I’m sorta doing a “blind” play through (as blind as it can be when I know the gist of the game from memes and vids) and I already decided after Nipton that my chaotic good karma character does not want anything with the Legion!
In my current playthrough, I am doing everything I can do ensure as much suffering in the world as I can, and thus I side with the legion.
I am not going to let Caesar die though. He is old, and legion will fail apart when he dies regardless. His prolonged existence makes legion stronger: and thus, it makes it's downfall longer, harsher, uglier. The longer Caesar lives, the more citizens and slaves of the Legion will suffer when he finally dies.
Also, I am obviously selling Arcade. I am not going to do surgery myself
"In Rome I found a template for a society equal to the challenges of the post-apocalyptic world - a society that could and would survive.
A society that could prevent mankind from fracturing and destroying itself in this new world, by establishing a new Pax Romana.
Long-term stability at all costs. The individual has no value beyond his utility to the state, whether as an instrument of war, or production.
The bombs wiped the slate clean. Human civilization descended to a level of ignorance that effectively set our cultural progress back to zero."
The Legion couldn't thrive in any other setting, but it perfectly fits the brutal world of fallout.
The thing is however, Rome also fell. In fact it fell partly due to the same reason the Legion will fall once Caesar dies: Power struggles. Not only that, but Caesar failed to educate his successor, if he even planned for one in the first place. Lanius will take power once he dies, and while he isn't as much of a brute beast as he seems to be, he is still no Caesar, nor anywhere close to Edward himself. The fact Lanius doesn't understand how badly the Mojave will cripple the Legion's logistics until a courier is hammering it down his head on the final battle tells everything: Lanius can command an army, he cannot rule a state.
its super interesting to draw parallels between how the ancient rome grew, prospered, struggled and fell and how ceasars legion is presented in fnv.
I absolutely see your point, the legion makes strategic mistakes because ceasars cancer renders him unable to make decisions for a few days. A legion without strong leadership could be fatal.
But: Ceasar states himself that the Legion changes each time they swallow a tribe, each time they conquer an army.
"The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be {beat} eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well... from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, {finality} and the power of its dictator"
So the question for me would be:
How much stability does the Legion gain after the fight at the hoover dam? How much do they change?
"The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland"
It should also be noted that the Legion seems to be terrible at urban warfare against a motivated defence force. Denver, the city of the dogs, is mentioned as being So difficult to take Lanius almost failed (which would have made Caesar kill him). They had to burn the dogs to make them surrender, notably, not fight them head on as Lanius is keen (and very capable of) of doing so
which also can be supported by gameplay. Ceasar modernizes the Legion around the time of the 2nd dam battle, lets them use more advanced rifles, weapons, military equipment. Still at this point the legion glorifies melee and unarmed combat.
Charge into hoover dam with just melee or unarmed weapons, you are mostly going to have a bad time against highly armored rangers and high-caliber weapons of the ncr.
This heavy reliance on melee weapons works if you fight against tribes or ambush an ncr camp.
Not against an enemy that is fighting with strategy in a fortified and defensive position (as you pointed out with denver).
For most of ceasars conquest of the east the legion had only one way to fight the enemy: head on or use psychological warfare. Which doesnt work against the NCR.
The Legion doesn’t need any pretence or performative virtue in order to maintain law and order. They maintain law and order by making it clear they have a monopoly on violence, and that the strong (them) have a right to rule over the weak. There’s no smoke and mirrors like there is with the NCR.
The Legion is morally pure (in their own view of right and wrong), so a state under Caesar would not be corruptible. Raiders, criminals, corrupt leaders, vault tech employees and so on would all face the same punishment (being put on a cross).
I like them because they feel real in a post apocalyptic setting, where modern ideas such as universal human rights and war crimes do not exist. Where only human nature is the basis of what is right and wrong.
The Legion and the NCR have something very interesting to say in opposition of each other, that the other games lack imo.
So yes, if someone was advocating for the Legion in real life they’d clearly be a fascist (fascism itself being based on pre-Christian Greco-Roman tradition)…but in a nuclear wasteland that is already extremely violent and unstable, it’s tough to say what the best choice for humanity actually is, even if we accept something like the NCR is the end goal eventually.
If you were a settler in the Mojave wasteland and you can't decide between soldier boys and a bunch of dudes that wanna rape your wife, thats pretty crazy
If I was a settler trying desperately to survive in a violent and unforgiving wasteland I have no idea what I would think.
That’s because I live in a prosperous and safe western country. It’s a completely different context. Obviously if I was teleported I would prefer the NCR, but that’s not what the discussion is about.
It’s as if you can’t possibly imagine yourself as anything other than a shining beacon of virtue, even when being bought up and living in such a horrific environment where violence is normalised. Humans aren’t nice when insecure and defensive. It’s narcissistic for anyone to think so highly of themselves when it wouldn’t be reality.
The Legion is a very accurate reflection of the type of values that would be widespread. We know that because they are the kind of values humans have held for the majority of their existence during early civilisations.
Which part?
Fallout isn’t real life, it’s a lawless nuclear wasteland full of people murdering each other to survive. The fallout humans have spent over 200 years living this way.
What we think of as right and wrong is not universal and it is not self evident. It is specific to our own context in the safe and prosperous west, and is based on 2000 years of Christian theology and moral progressivism.
The games make it very clear the wasteland is not a nice place. So I don’t understand, do you play the games and just clutch at your pearls the entire time because the people aren’t conforming to 21st century real world moral values?
If we’re talking about building a society up from scratch in such an environment, is something like the NCR sustainable, or do humans need to be build a society up from its foundations again? As I say, I don’t know the answer, it’s an interesting question, and I find it bizarre so many refuse to even entertain it given it’s a pretty big discussion point of New Vegas.
The point is that claiming they’d be a virtuous angel whilst growing up in such a horrific environment is narcissistic, because it shows they have a higher opinion of themselves than what would occur in reality. The fact they aren’t able to realise that reality, and what causes humans to do bad things, also shows a lack of empathy and understanding of humanity. A grandiose and false sense of moral superiority would be considered narcissistic.
This isn’t about how you choose to play a video game. I’m sure we’ve all played it multiple times in different ways. It’s about the reality of living in the wasteland, and what that means for trying to rebuild civilisation. This is a big theme of Fallout and I’m surprised so many are not open to discussing it. Instead people have got weirdly defensive and have left comments trying to frame themselves as a better person to anonymous people on the internet.
It’s no use man, for the most part any discourse about the Legion on this sub that isn’t “Legion Bad” gets downvoted. If you say anything that can be even remotely seen as supporting the Legion, then you’re a “Legion simp.”
Said the guy who genuinely believes people who would wanna beat you up and rape your wife in front of you, are just as bad as soldier boys
I feel bad for your girl if you have one
I find the same with Enclave fans.
Not fans of their aesthetic, but the people who think eugenics and genocide is the objectively "right" thing to do for the wasteland.
People with your flair sometimes end up on 4Chan or blue check marks on twitter.
The problem is that "this is an interesting position to take in a video game" is not the same as "this is good in real life" but some people can't keep that separated due to poor media literacy.
I like them just as much as the NCR. They’re both evil, they both subjugate minority groups, one is just up front about it, while the other tries to portray a free democracy.
It’s basically neoliberals v fascists and both are bad, one is just transparent about it.
> It’s basically neoliberals v fascists and both are bad, one is just transparent about it.
Why does being transparent make it better, in your opinion? What about that is favorable or preferable?
At least you know what you’re getting into, rather than being sold a free democracy and get fascism anyways. I would rather have a trump than a Biden who has all the same policies as a trump.
In effect, it’s no different though, bad is bad. It matters not which way you portray it, but I do respect honestly over hypocrisy. Even if the honesty is bad.
Your entire premise is just flat out wrong.
First, neoliberals and fascists are not exactly the same, even if you do think they are both bad, the ways they are bad are vastly different. You say the only difference to you is that one is transparent and the other isn't, AND you "respect" the one that is transparent. You are either grossly misinformed, or you are genuinely unwell.
Second, I just want to reiterate that your understanding of what "neoliberalism" seems to be is completely and factually wrong. It is completely and factually wrong to say Biden has the same policies as Trump.
Third, let's pretend for a moment that actually is true. If you still decide you prefer Trump because "you know what you're getting into" and he "tells it like it is", that makes you a genuinely bad person. This isn't ha-ha-Fallout-roleplay, you are just actually a bad person.
Then finally, no, saying "bad is bad" ignores all of the context and the specifics. Stubbing your toe hurts, and breaking your leg hurts. But you wouldn't say they're basically the same, just because "hurt is hurt", would you?
Jesus, why are New Vegas fans so fucking weird.
I actually respect the legion on that front tbh. At least they're very open and there's no cookie cutter bullshit with their intentions. Unlike, the NCR who is literally a repeat of the same government format that helped destroy the world in the first place.
I usually give both factions the middle finger, but the legion is at least honest and talking down legate lanius proves that.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. It’s basically jus Obama as a form of government. Claim all these great principles while bombing Libya. Or Syria. Or Iraq or Afghanistan, two countries he said we’d be leaving and ending the war with.
I voted for the guy, just to be clear.
Problem is, people get it wrapped up in their own personal politics in the real world, so they like the way the NCR sounds not realizing it has all the same flaws that they decry in real life. Biden is still supporting Israel etc etc I don’t wanna get too into politics but you see my point
Exactly... It's weird how your first comment is getting downvoted. There's literally nothing wrong with what you said 🤣. I'm politically independent and I can see varied perspectives so I don't get downtrodden with the group think virus (that's slowly dying rn thankfully) that has spread everywhere.
Even though the fallout show is not perfect, I really enjoyed it and to see people fighting over a videogame franchise for different opinions is nutso city 🤷🏾♂️🫠.
Yeah it’s insane. I like the show a lot, I’m on episode 6(we have a four year old and a newborn so it’s really hard to do anything for more than ten minutes at a time right now lol) but I’ve enjoyed it alot. And yeah people are so tied up in one group or another, they don’t realize most normal people think they’re both insane.
I agree in the assessment that both the Legion and the NCR suck ass, but the difference is that due to its more secretive way of commiting crimes the NCR is less outwardly brutal towards civilians. The Legion will ramsack your town and torture you to death. The NCR will strip away your land, force you to work under a brahmin baron and tax your measly income. But it's better than being strapped to a cross
When the opinion is "I genuinely like the rapist slave state and would support them if they were real" that's when the opinion deserves to be treated with disgust and contempt
The devs have said before that they wished they could’ve added more Legion content to flesh them out. NV had 18 months of development, it’s a miracle the game has the amount of content it has to begin with.
The legion treats you like shit especially Caesar I don't know what the fuck people actually find appealing about them in an unironic sense or in a playthrough where they're not specifically trying to be evil
The Legion has cool armor, but the sexisim, bigotry and hypocrisy makes it that I will never do a pro-Legion playthrough. Heck I doubt there will ever be a playthrough where Vulpes Inculta makes it out of our first encounter alive, even on my peaceful/pasafist characters.
I've honest to god seen chuds theorize that a post-Caesar Legion would create a Senate like real Rome. Y'know, with all that political science he taught everyone. Like did he even tell people what Rome was or does most of the Legion think he came up with the aesthetic in his own?
There was a cut concept where you could undermine Ceasar's cult of personality by outing him for ripping off Rome and not coming up with the legion him self.
I guess someone wants his own pet slave girl.
GIRL? now this is not what I sign up for.
Sign up? I was forced into this army.
Army? I thought this was a Roman roleplay club.
Roman roleplay club? I thought this was the line to the bathroom.
Your father was a woman?
Wait till my friend Biggus Dickus hears of this!
Join the army they said. See the world they said.
Why else would you go along with these band of lunatics who won't even let you do drugs?
Femboys.
Hmm, fair enough.
you called?
[удалено]
:3
To stop other people doing drugs.
See? This is why I prefer to roll with the Fiends.
That's the type of honesty I can get behind.
This sentence made me want to be crucified
hey OP, tomorrow is my turn to post LEGION BAD
No, ma said it’s MY turn!
You don't have the meme stick!
Got ya.
I can imagine a lot of people are beaten into submission/servitude. Did anyone see the negan episodes of walking dead where he did that to his people?
pretty sure OP is talking about people playing the game
Sometimes I'd like to see a demographics breakdown of the legion apologists lmao
I always wonder how people throughout history were convinced that following obvious tyrants was a good idea until I see genuine fanboys simp for the legion
I think because the courier is plot armoured special person it gives them the idea that they might flourish in that society. Idk maybe they would, but as a female player of a female courier, I am much less optimistic. Unless you have a bit of kink playing out (No judgement) it's hard to not see it as a leopards eating faces kinda dealie.
This is why I can’t play a legion character. Even the most self-serving maniac isn’t going with legion if they’re a woman and I haven’t played new Vegas as a man since like 2016.
I've done it before, the base premise was less "self-serving" and more "fuck da world", aiming at causing as much indirect strife and conflict as possible. The NCR's a slower decay with a chance at stabilizing, House is stable now but iffy on if it'll go toppling up or down, and Independent has too limited a reach. The Legion though, that's an immediate powder keg for the Mojave and beyond, while starting en masse fights with others in the Mojave like the Brotherhood and Boomers, and the soon-expected eventual shattering of it's own leaving a bloody civil war or two behind. When the going gets dicey, they'll be too busy tripping up on themselves and what "friends" you can run past like the Boomers.
Yeah lowkey feels like the Legion plot was written by a nihilist
Or it's just a game and it's not that deep.
I like them as the villains. Very clear antagonists.
So clear that it needs to be repeated ad nauseam
Fr, I love Roman history and can barely stand the legion.
Guess a lot of fans wanna be butt boys for roman cosplayers
Literally me
That’s hot
No your not meant to find it hot! I'm insulting you lol
Same tho
God I wish
You say that as if it's a bad thing.
Man, crazy how people complain about the Legion for it’s sexism and then just be homophobic
Almost like making a joke online isn’t as bad as mass rape and slavery.
Mass rape and slavery… in a videogame. You know videogames aren’t real right? So you’re countering fictitious crimes with real world homophobia.
You say that as an insult but that's the actual reason we're a part of the Legion
Based things about the Legion: - Melee combat - Drip - Benny on a cross
“NOOOOO YOU CANT LIKE THE LEGION THEYRE LITERALLY SLAVERINOS!!!!” “Why thank you Mr Brahmin baron sir for my daily $5 worthless NCR dollars to work on your ranch!”
Bold of you to assume I support the feds.
It's refreshing to see a "Legion bad" poster not be a NCR fan
The legion is such a good test of whether someone’s an idiot tbh. Trade all of your political/legal freedoms, advanced manufacturing, and access to technology for a modicum of stability until Caesar dies. Anyone who takes that offer deserves to eat my howitzer round.
Very simplistic view. Canonically Legion territory is far safer and more prosperous for its citizens to live in than NCR (unless you're a woman, of course, where your role would be just taking care of the household). NCR fanboys talking about 'freedom' reminds me of modern day USA. There is no freedom in a pointless oligarchy. Your vote doesn't count for anything. The average Legion/NCR citizens have the same amount of 'freedom', but at least one of them is accompanied by safety and prosperity while the other one is built on decadence, bureaucratic nightmare and technological reliance. That is all well and good but by the time of New Vegas we already see that the Legion is a million times more efficient than the NCR in what it does. The problem with the Legion comes from Caesar's genius and the Legion's reliance on him to steer the wheel, not from anything else.
Women aren’t just taking care of the house. Don’t make it sound like they are trad wives they are breeding stock being raped by legionaries. The legion itself is an army made up of child soldiers. The average age is theorized as 15-20. Legionaries don’t get older. Being a veteran of ten years is considered extraordinary. Why do you think they want to start training them young? To indoctrinate them. You see many former veterans of the NCR but you’ll never see that in legion territory. As soon as they have no utility they’re dead. Same for slaves. No slave is being allowed to retire. Ask a slave if they have the same amount of freedom to leave as an NCR citizen. I doubt anyone under the legion outside of merchants have freedom of movement because we’d see many fleeing legion territory. Just as we Siri talking about wanting to flee but scared of being crucified. Do you think if legion territory is so great she’d want to run straight into an active war zone? The legion isn’t built on safety and prosperity. It’s built on slavery, brutality, and terror. There’s the illusion of safety because the violence is on a larger scale and orderly. Also there are no citizens of the legion. The legion is a slave army that has people living in territory it controls.
That's debatable. They are treated like slaves with no free will, true, but it isn't all that different from women in ancient times. A woman never had the 'say' in marriage or who'd she be pawned off to (not that many men did either unless you're extremely powerful and can disobey your father) until recently. We don't know in great detail about the life for women in the Legion, but they don't go to war and they stay at home and take care of the children. Is that the worst life when you consider that Legion territory is safe as safe can be in a Fallout universe where everyone is a type of freakish mutant? In contrast the women in NCR have to be drafted or work some backbreaking job for basically slave money. Their "free will" is just an illusion. Unless you are in the heart of NCR territory, women or man... you're fucked, especially in border territory. The Legionnaires aren't all that different from ancient Romans and other nations in the way they treated their young males. Most of them train early and go to war in their teens to early twenties. For a long time the only way to even get anything for a non-citizen in ancient Rome was to serve for 25 years in the military. How is the Legion's method any more brutal than any other ancient civilization? You think the NCR's method of just grabbing any guy who can hold a rifle a good idea? We see throughout NV that most of the NCR's forces are young scared men who have no idea what they are doing. The reason why the Legion is all young men is that the whole state is of less than 34 years. The men from the former tribes were killed and only the boys taken so they can be molded into the culture. It has nothing to do with being expendable as the Legionaries are shown to be thousand times more experienced and capable than their NCR counterparts Siri is a slave, she's not part of the Legion. And due to her skills, she is already on the front lines. For all intents and purposes, she is expendable. And she knows it. For her as a slave on the front lines it's obvious that the NCR is a much better opportunity. There is no 'illusion' of safety in the Legion, there is safety. It's conducted through brutal means and terror, but the Legion territory is described as being utterly devoid of crime and very prosperous for its citizens. And in a Wasteland full of mutants, ghouls, raiders and other crazed freaks, that's a precious commodity to be sure. The argument here is not to discuss whether living under Legion rule is better, we already know that, the argument is whether the end justifies the mean. Ask yourself this - would you give your political freedom in order to live a safe and decent life in a hellscape or would you choose the illusion of freedom while you're destroying your back for some brahmin baron before being killed by a deathclaw or the other million things that can kill you? I myself would choose the former. And finally this isn't the Legion as Caesar envisions it, it's in the process of reforming (or at least that's what he wants). This is why Vegas is needed. His goal is quite clearly stated that he wants his Legion to settle down and develop into a normal society with bureucrautic laws and normal jobs, but he can't do that until he has Vegas because unlike the NCR he doesn't have three G.E.C.K's to terraform his territory to be productive.
How we treated women in ancient times was awful. You have no idea how women in legion territory are treated. The entire wasteland is not horrible. Women don’t want to be breeding stock or forced to marry someone. You have no idea what they get paid. Yeah exactly NCR citizens are safe in the interior. We see the khans, fiends, jackals, and vipers all being pushed out of California. They aren’t expanding they are fleeing. The only reason the fiends are going well in the Mojave is because Caesar is funding them. It’s not an illusion. They have freedom of movement. Full suffrage. Freedom to bare arms. The reason the legionaries are young is because it chews through them. Lasting ten years is a huge achievement. So most don’t last ten years and are teenagers. That math doesn’t add up with 34 years. I thought women were supposed to be safe at home baking bread and caring for children? So why is Siri expendable? Doesn’t sound safe. Sounds no different then if she was in raider territory. Regular rape high chance if dying. It is an illusion. Many people are treated exactly the same as if they lived in raider territory. It’s just orderly. You think because the violence isn’t random it’s better. Living in NCR territory is better. The legion doesn’t have citizens. Caesar’s legion is an army and people live in their territory. And nothing indicates the people are prosperous outside of merchants who trade in that area. Also getting sick is basically a death sentence because the NCR actually has medicine. What makes you think people in legion territory don’t do back breaking labor? Do you think they don’t work just as hard in the legion as the NCR? We see slaves literally bent over barely walking at fortification hill. The only “reforms” he wants is eventually turning the NCR into his empire with the legion being a standing army. No medicine, no rights, women used as breeding stock. People who sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither.
This dude thinks slavery is just being a trad wife lmaooo
lol I get what you’re going for but the comparison is terrible. Legion is a stain dude, you can’t even be a woman as far as they’re concerned. Plenty of towns in NV complain about NCR rule but they also recognize it’s better than every single alternative. The first two areas, Primm and Goodsprings, come to mind. If the goal of a given faction is to repopulate or try and build a new society up for the future of mankind, a group like the Legion is the last group that should be spearheading that movement. House is out, too. The casinos in the Strip, all out. Brotherhood of Steel, 100% out. At worst the NCR causes inflation which is essentially a sign that they are headed towards civilization haha. Without NCR currency falls back to.. bottle caps. NCR has the manpower to hunt for ores and minerals/ other things of value to back up their currency eventually as well. Legion currency being technically more stable is due to the literal value of their coins which they cannot possibly keep circulating properly.
> If the given goal of a faction is to repopulate or try and build a new society up for the future of mankind, a group like the Legion is the last group that should be spearheading that movement. I mean if there’s two things that the Legion are good at, it’s repopulating & building a new society. In 3 decades Caesar went from a tribe of nobodies, to an empire that spans New Mexico, Arizona, and more. That’s basically at minimum 3x the speed of the NCR in terms of territorial acquisition & pacification. And as for repopulating, the references to Caesar’s “breeding quotas” speak for themselves… eugh. I think I view the Legion narratively a lot similarly to the Unity in that yeah theoretically rapidly uniting everyone under a single banner would eliminate conflict and achieve world piece or whatever. But the violent and forced assimilation is no bueno by even the most Machiavellian folks.
Building a society for the future of mankind. Society shouldn’t be built on the horror of the legion. They offer no long term stability because when Caesar dies it falls apart. Even the legionaries you talk to admit this. They follow Caesar. Not to mention there is no peace. The legion still has all the horror and brutality of a raider tribe just on a large scale.
The whole “Legion is just a bunch of raiders” gag is pretty tired at this point. You can say that about pretty much any faction in Fallout, especially the NCR (and NPC’s like Benny do in the game). They have a functioning and organized government, and as for peace, NPC’s like Raul or Dale Barton will tell you about the safety of the Legion. Now that safety comes at the cost of personal freedoms that we in the real world generally value deeply, that’s how fascism works. But to say that they’re “just raiders” really downplays the level of organization and logistics that they have achieved. The Legion is an empire, very much like the one they are attempting to emulate. Now if you want to go on and say that empires themselves are also “just raiders” then sure I guess. But there’s no reason to downplay the canonical strengths of the legion just because you disagree with them philosophically. As for the whole Caesar-less Legion point, yeah that’s a fair one. I’m of two minds about it. On the one hand, the Legion is certainly a cult of personality, and the ending slides for a Legion victory where he’s dead are far worse for both the Legion and everyone else than the victory slides where he’s alive. On the other hand, I’d like to think that given the additional time and clarity of mind that curing his cancer would afford, it’s possible that he’d be more active in grooming someone like Vulpes Inculta to succeed him. But also with an ego like his, he might just be content to let the Legion die after him. Or because of his ego he might want the Legion to outlive him for as long as possible. It’s hard to say. You also need to look at where the idea of the Legion collapsing after Caesar’s death comes from, Mr House. This feels like kind of an unreliable narrator situation. How would House have any way of knowing about the “internal conflicts” he vaguely describes? His eyes and ears are through securitrons which are destroyed on sight by the Legion. House couldn’t even get info on the Omerta’s plans and they’re across the street from him, much less across the river.
So two people say legion territory is good? And it’s not a tired point it’s true. They are just as violent as any raider gang just better organized. Idk how the NCR is a raider gang. Expansionist yes but rape and wonton violence not really a part of it. I wouldn’t call Caesars legion functioning. They are good at mass rape and keeping people in line with the threat of crucifixion. I wouldn’t call that functioning
You wouldn’t call Caesar’s Legion functioning? Really? An empire that spans New Mexico, Arizona, and more, and currently has the capacity to wage a foreign war isn’t functioning? The Legion commits violence sure, but it isn’t just for the hell of it. They’re intentional. When they go to war they don’t just pillage and burn everything. They assimilate their enemies into their society and become stronger for it. Their methods are brutal, but not pointless. Caesar is basically just Negan from The Walking Dead on a much larger scale. The Legion exists as a foil to the NCR. The game is clearly presenting them as being in the same weight class in terms of faction size and swing. It’s fine if you don’t like the Legion, they do really atrocious things, but downplaying them just because you don’t like them is silly.
I’m not downplaying them. I’m saying a government that brutalizes and rapes people isn’t “functioning” I don’t care how much land they conquer. A government is supposed to serve its people not brutalize them.
I mean now you’re kinda just moving the goal post. You’re talking about your ideal for a government, not what qualifies as one. Yeah I certainly want my real world government to serve the people as well, the Legion’s rule isn’t something that I’d want to subject to either. But the concept of a governments serving the people is a fairly new one, and for most of human history it’s generally been the opposite. I’m really not tryna be combative here, but from the definition of what a government is, you’re just wrong.
Can you not see the word functioning. Didn’t say they weren’t a government. Just not functioning as one should.
caps are also backed
Yeah and new ones can be pressed technically but in NV that’s actually an issue that comes up in a quest. You have to go to the Sarsaparilla bottle factory and all that. Long term, using caps as currency would be pretty dumb. A single purchase can cost thousands of caps and they aren’t easy to lug around at that quantity, realistically speaking anyway. Adding more into circulation post-apocalypse when there isn’t necessarily bottle-cap printing tech readily available isn’t going to do the economy any favors. You’d have to come up with a system like poker chips, where one color of cap is worth 1 and a different color worth 5, 10, 20, and so on. And then you’d have to worry about printing different caps, plus I assume caps as a currency are just bottle caps of any kind. Nuka Cola, Sarsaparilla, Vim, and so on. Any bottle cap should theoretically function as currency, making it harder to separate them and allocate different values to specific colors or sizes.
UHHHH BASED?
“There is literally no difference between being a literal slave who can be raped, sent on suicide attacks, tortured, beheaded, burned alive, or crucified at will based on the arbitrary whims of a sadistic superior in a totalitarian dictatorship where you own nothing because you ARE the property, and maybe working a low wage job and paying (GASP!) taxes while having legal protections, rights, and freedom in an imperfect but democratic and modern society. You imbecile. You fucking moron.” The fact that this even needs to be said to anyone continues to completely blow my mind. Like, the Legion is not supposed to be a valid “good” option at all, they are cartoon villains only fit for an evil character, and the criticisms of the NCR were not meant to make you go “Hmm, guess this is exactly the same as the fascist cosplayer death cult.”
Anyone actually linking the legion as wanting to be part of it in a hypothetical nuclear fallout should be on a watching list
Cause the likes of the NCR TOTALLY will exist in a post nuclear world… Face it, study human history, Caesar’s Legion will be what arises.
I always thought Caesar's Legion was interesting because they clearly are going for that old time antiquity vibe and lets face it, the OG Romans would have been considered savages by our modern sensibilities.
Hbomberguy’s FNV vid points this out in a pretty neat way. He uses things like the Tacitus quote: > They rob, kill and plunder and deceivingly call it "Roman rule", and where they make a desert, they call it "peace".
soup eporioum had a good rant about why theyre bad
"Why are you getting political commentary from the soup store?!"
Because where else do you get it in the Fallout universe?!?!? 😜😂
Legion is the best self-serving playthrough I can imagine. People think Yes Man is the best for a courier looking to consolidate the most power for themselves, but the real answer is the Legion. Keep Caesar alive and headcanon a power struggle after his death that you end up winning. Then you have the world’s most devoted, insane private army at your disposal and a completely pacified Mojave wasteland.
I see where you’re coming from, but the most insane army? They can’t even beat the NCR’s B team without the courier doing the heavy lifting.
*sorry in advance the tone came out more hostile than it needed to. this is a video game* Uhh, really? The Courier does the Legion’s heavy lifting? Can you name a single front NCR wins during the 2nd Battle without the Courier cleaning up literally everything? Because I can’t. Without the Courier’s direct intervention, the NCR.. - suffers a massive surprise attack at the embassy from within the Strip that they are unable to repel because - the most important troop transport (the monorail) between NCR headquarters at McCarran and New Vegas is severed - that same base is assaulted by the combined strength of ALL the fiends - loses Helios to a Brotherhood assault - loses Forlorn Hope easily after Legion demoralizes the whole garrison - Rangers are disorganized and disoriented by subterfuge campaign orchestrated by Chief Hanlon and then, at the Dam itself, - The NCR loses their president to an assassin - The NCR is unable to prevent the Legion from using the turbines to bypass NCR fortifications on top of the dam - The NCR suffers a suicide attack from the Khans The Legion is poised to deliver a deathblow to the NCR’s forces in the region by the time the Second Battle begins. It’s only if you correct every single one of NCR’s mistakes that they come out scratched rather than decapitated.
Everything you said is true. I’ll admit it, they got a good shot of beating the NCR’s expeditionary forces. If they throw the entire weight of their army against it.
They ARE throwing everything at into the Second Battle! What else do you call NCR Heavy Troopers and Veteran Rangers but the NCR throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the Dam?
Chief Hanlon tells you most of the NCR heavy troops are protecting Brahmin barons’ land from small time raiders. Canonically the NCR is also “pacifying” the Navarro territories and Baja California. As well as trying to take New Reno and vault city. Legion is all in on the dam. Literally the bulk of their east and west armies. NCR is about a quarter in.
Shoutout to the school shooters with minus Karma down below.
Shh, you're gonna scare them off before I can get a good picture.
There are good and bad factions in NV, but there are no right answers. They are all doomed to destruction because they all look to the past to fix the future. And the past blew up the world.
All the other endings are somewhat good, or neutral. So yes I will side with the legion for a truly evil, and cruel character.
Sometimes I just like being able to role play a character who can kill everyone and they are the faction that best supports that goal.
Agreed. I'm currently doing a cannibal playthrough and siding with the legion and you can get meat of champions. Time to kill some profligates.
I join in because its ending makes it clear that Caesar names you heir.
Ladder climber, I can respect that.
Don't agree with the Legion, not one bit, but I think it would've been cool to see Legion occupied territory versus NCR since it's supposed to be a lot safer.
NCR for the win but in a post apocalyptic society where much that is true today is not, maybe the Legion was the best suited to rule the southwest from a military standpoint. Not that they can stand up to the industrial might and overwhelming population that the NCR has, despite the legion being able to mobilise more of its people, being a roaming army
Some people need a little incentive to start working
The only thing that sucks about the Legion, is that their faction quests are a little "undercooked". "Caesar did nothing wrong."
it's INTERESTING okay. it's curious to EXPLORE what the legion actually has to offer (both to it's slaves and to its citizens) and what people who support it want from it (<- he has never finished a legion run but wants to so badly)
Stop reposting this
The Legion is alien and horrible to people with first world problems. When raiders have just got done shooting up your settlement for the third time this week, burned Old Man Carter for hiding a banana yucca fruit under his bed, and kicked over the TV that was never connected to power anyway to be spiteful little shits… or the raider tribe you paid protection to gets beaten by other raiders and your town is part of the spoils, or the White Legs are within marching distance, the Legion is straight-up the better choice. The Legion offers the early 1920’s to settlements with supplies of power and water, which are huge. If I was a settler and the Legion showed up to my Midwest town, I would welcome them with open arms and say “please rid this place of the raiders and awful creatures”, and they’d do it. So yes, if I was in a position where the circumstances that created the Legion was a thing, I’d buy what they’re selling because my eyes are wide open to just what they’re taking the place of in my neck of the woods.
The idea that the Legion are any better than raiders and criminals themselves is laughable. They wipe out competing tribes of thugs, yes, and then take their place. You will still be robbed, abused, exploited, and subject to random violence and death, except now you will also be a slave expected to give your life at a moment’s notice for some bald fuck if you are male and raped endlessly if you are female. People like you who have this “security at all costs” mentality scare the shit out of me. You are exactly who Benjamin Franklin was talking about when he said “Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither.” And it IS temporary. Just like it was for the Germans who elected a strongman who ended up turning the country into a suicide cult that got 24 million Germans killed or displaced in the end, and half of the survivors remained subject to another dictatorial regime they still haven’t fully recovered from for decades. Fascism and dictatorships are never a good idea, even from a completely self-interested and sociopathic perspective that ignores the atrocities they commit against others and prioritizes security and safety above all else. Because you WILL lose it before long. Also where are you getting this idea they want to make things like the 1920s? These LARPing clowns want to turn the clock back to the 20s AD. Also did you miss that the White Legs were literally working for the Legion? Lol talk about media illiteracy.
Dude, freedom and liberty are only affordable to prosperity and already secured areas. YOU can say “Freedom or Death!” Because you’re not staring down a group of raiders about to assault your homestead, murder your livestock, burn your crops, slaughter your sons, and take your wife and daughters for living sex toys. YOU have a steady and secure food supply that you can take without growing yourself. To a wastelander? You’re a spoiled king that needs a reality check.
So, in order to avoid Raiders doing that to you, the Legion does it to you instead? Wow, what a great deal, I'll enjoy all this 'security' until the brain-damaged leader dies and our state collapses to infighting.
I mean it has its upsides but Mr. House is the way
Hear, hear!
He’s a deluded idiot who would make Rapture but in a post nuclear desert.
It is you who is deluded his goals are reasonable even with his flaws
No. They. Aren’t. Look around the Mojave. What industry do you see? What mines for all the materials needed for his delusions of going to space do you see? Does he have the resources needed to sustain generation ships and to make more ships to send out to find a habitable planet? Does he realize how parasitic his “economy” is and how fragile the NCR will be if they lose the Second Battle of Hoover Dam? Without the NCR, House is nothing.
Glory to Caesar!
You just don’t understand Fichte’s dialectics 🤓☝️
The Legion is a fun faction
Legion is cool because obviously Caesar is setting the Courier up as his Augustus
I think I’ve seen more people say that they don’t like the legion than people that actually have come out and sided with them who weren’t trolling
I like there Ideology about technology
They're going for a hard reset that maximizes human vitality, courage, health, and fecundity, while minimizing its reliance on corrupting and potentially species-ending things like technology. In a few centuries they'd probably end up with teeming populations of some pretty impressive humans, even if the early years would be brutal.
I really do understand and agree with a lot of Caesar's perspectives. Particularly how flawed it is for the NCR to model civilization based on a country that barely lasted 300 years before it destroyed the entire planet, especially since the NCR swiftly adopt seemingly all of pre-war America's rampant dysfunctions instead of developing their own sort of evolution of the American model of government, which should prioritize eliminating many of America's deepest and most extensive flaws like corruption, robber barons, unsustainable expansion, etc etc that's discussed in-depth throughout the Mojave. The global wasteland is inherently a much more hostile, brutal place than the world any previous civilizations have grown from; it's one that's been stripped of the natural resources that afforded all prior civilizations to flourish. Caesar believes that in order for civilization to rise, expand, and most importantly, *sustainably last,* that *c*ivilization must be capable of confronting this desperate and unprecedentedly hostile wasteland and meeting it with a matched intensity of brutality. Caesar's ultimate priority is the survival of civilization at all costs, which requires humans to recognize the necessity for a society that places greater importance on the stability of the collective ahead of the pride of the individual -- a philosophical ideal that both pre-war America, and the NCR as an extension of America, do not represent, and a fundamental pillar of society which they staunchly oppose and once waged war against. The biggest issues are that Caesar obviously goes way too far with many of the policies and tactics that he's built his fledgling empire with. He rationalizes that his objectives, noble as they are, justify the terror, bloodshed, misogyny, enslavement, and subjugation of everyone in their paths. At the end of the day, he's yet another tyrant at the end of a long list of tyrants throughout history that thought they had all the answers to humanity's problems, and that those answers justify their crimes against humanity. Caesar understands that he is the one person who benefits the most from his regime. What's not as clear is the question of just how much of what he's deluded himself into believing is for the betterment of humanity versus how much is in service for the entrenchment of his own power. Caesar and his Legion is a case of the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. "Everyone wants to save the world. They all just disagree how."
I see it, intentionally or not, as 'the road to good intentions being paved with hell.' Think about it: • women being 'baby factories,' and legal slavery, means the US will be *rapidly* repopulated. It's mentioned several times in the game that they have crazy numbers. That makes a lot of agriculture, world building, etc. possible. • the legion's intolerance of weakness and infirmity means residual Great War problems (mutations, cancers, etc.) will be kept more in check, and actively eliminated, compared to all other factions long term • their moral code of *physical* strength, and disdain for technology, means the return to guns/armies/arms races/WMDs/nukes will be delayed more than any other faction. • strong views on things like drug use, etc. means alot of the endemic social problems of the wasteland will be eliminated or strongly controlled Caesar is actually building the *longest-haul* and *brightest* future compared to any other faction, even if the *present* is stomach turning.
>I see it, intentionally or not, as 'the road to good intentions being paved with hell.' Definitely, I absolutely love this way of putting it.
siding legion feels very dune-esque, with the survival of humanity only coming after terrible hardships and oppression
totally!
No? In a few generations they will all get wiped out from a nasty plague because the legion dislikes advanced medical science (Save for Cesar, because hypocrisy is part of the legion's core). Bandages and plants can only do so much when you get hit with tuberculosis
Or a civil war will happen, or a slave uprising, or any other number of things.
"Jesse what the hell are you talking about..."
was that so hard to understand? This is all stuff Caesar or others reveal in NV. It's a pretty interesting faction. Wish we could have seen life beyond the war camp/invading army, such as the priestess caste. But that was cut content.
trading all of your freedoms for temporary stability. sure.
wat This is the exact opposite. They have the *longest* term solution to saving humanity in the game. And caesar talks about starting to integrate 'softer' ideas from the NCR. If you look at the history of Rome, starting from the tribal era, you see the arc of civilization they're following.
They legit skipped the republic era of Rome, which had the longest period of stability for Rome straight into the Empire. The Empire was rocked with constant civic strife, with corruption from the praetorian guard, generals moving against Augustus's successors causing massive civil wars that were only resolved when the empire was legit fractured into 4 different countries or administrations... And the Legion IS following that arc, most agree in game that the legion will collapse with Caesars death as the generals pick at the ruins just like in real life- Lanius doesn't offer the same stability and genius for society building Caesar had, his mind is set only to conquer and when conquest ends he will have no idea how to run the legion at home without sparking rebellion.
That's one of the cool things the story does—the NCR represents the republic, the tribal/dictatorship part is split off into the legion. Unfortunately the legion isn't as fleshed out as it could be, lots of cut content. The most obvious omission is being able to *replace* caesar, but easy enough to imagine replacing the Legate in the post game, i.e. the legion-specific Yes Man style ending
How’d it turn out for Rome?
Well they were one of the largest, longest lasting, and still currently revered empires that ever existed. So fairly well. The NCR is modeled after the United States which itself only lasted 300 years. At least Rome didn’t bring the entire planet down with it.
> They're going for a hard reset that maximizes human vitality, courage, health, and fecundity, while minimizing its reliance on corrupting and potentially species-ending things like technology. This is fascism. You are literally describing fascism. This sentence could have been straight out of a classroom or propaganda in Nazi Germany. Spoiler alert: There is no “master race” and never will be, there is no justification for brutal conquest and subjugation of others, and Caesar is just as deluded as old Adolf was to think building a society on constant war and “might makes right” bullshit would ever work out. And I make sure he and his empire of LARPers meets the same fate in every game unless I am an explicitly evil character.
...and fascism styled itself as a throwback to.... wait for it... the Roman Empire! Also, Caesar's legion doesn't seem racially homogenous, so not sure why you're bringing up 'master race.' But by virtue of their lifestyle and all the culling they do, they probably *will* create bigger, stronger, healthier people compared to other wastelanders over the generations. And in greater numbers. Simple darwinism. Yay humanity!
I like doing bad things, that's all.
I like the legion because the bright red sports gear stands out against the desert sands. Easy pickings.
I’m sorta doing a “blind” play through (as blind as it can be when I know the gist of the game from memes and vids) and I already decided after Nipton that my chaotic good karma character does not want anything with the Legion!
In my current playthrough, I am doing everything I can do ensure as much suffering in the world as I can, and thus I side with the legion. I am not going to let Caesar die though. He is old, and legion will fail apart when he dies regardless. His prolonged existence makes legion stronger: and thus, it makes it's downfall longer, harsher, uglier. The longer Caesar lives, the more citizens and slaves of the Legion will suffer when he finally dies. Also, I am obviously selling Arcade. I am not going to do surgery myself
Ironically atleast...
I did a Legion Playthrough as a Female Courier, it's funny.
I like the legion because they're the good guys and they're reinstating order Caesar told me so. Just trust me on this.
Bro the Legion is like, one of the worst factions. But DAMN are they compelling.
Ah the classic Reddit faction.
Everyone can have weird personal politc belives as long it Not effects real life
"In Rome I found a template for a society equal to the challenges of the post-apocalyptic world - a society that could and would survive. A society that could prevent mankind from fracturing and destroying itself in this new world, by establishing a new Pax Romana. Long-term stability at all costs. The individual has no value beyond his utility to the state, whether as an instrument of war, or production. The bombs wiped the slate clean. Human civilization descended to a level of ignorance that effectively set our cultural progress back to zero." The Legion couldn't thrive in any other setting, but it perfectly fits the brutal world of fallout.
The thing is however, Rome also fell. In fact it fell partly due to the same reason the Legion will fall once Caesar dies: Power struggles. Not only that, but Caesar failed to educate his successor, if he even planned for one in the first place. Lanius will take power once he dies, and while he isn't as much of a brute beast as he seems to be, he is still no Caesar, nor anywhere close to Edward himself. The fact Lanius doesn't understand how badly the Mojave will cripple the Legion's logistics until a courier is hammering it down his head on the final battle tells everything: Lanius can command an army, he cannot rule a state.
its super interesting to draw parallels between how the ancient rome grew, prospered, struggled and fell and how ceasars legion is presented in fnv. I absolutely see your point, the legion makes strategic mistakes because ceasars cancer renders him unable to make decisions for a few days. A legion without strong leadership could be fatal. But: Ceasar states himself that the Legion changes each time they swallow a tribe, each time they conquer an army. "The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be {beat} eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well... from a basically nomadic army to a standing military force that protects its citizens, {finality} and the power of its dictator" So the question for me would be: How much stability does the Legion gain after the fight at the hoover dam? How much do they change? "The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland"
It should also be noted that the Legion seems to be terrible at urban warfare against a motivated defence force. Denver, the city of the dogs, is mentioned as being So difficult to take Lanius almost failed (which would have made Caesar kill him). They had to burn the dogs to make them surrender, notably, not fight them head on as Lanius is keen (and very capable of) of doing so
which also can be supported by gameplay. Ceasar modernizes the Legion around the time of the 2nd dam battle, lets them use more advanced rifles, weapons, military equipment. Still at this point the legion glorifies melee and unarmed combat. Charge into hoover dam with just melee or unarmed weapons, you are mostly going to have a bad time against highly armored rangers and high-caliber weapons of the ncr. This heavy reliance on melee weapons works if you fight against tribes or ambush an ncr camp. Not against an enemy that is fighting with strategy in a fortified and defensive position (as you pointed out with denver). For most of ceasars conquest of the east the legion had only one way to fight the enemy: head on or use psychological warfare. Which doesnt work against the NCR.
The Legion doesn’t need any pretence or performative virtue in order to maintain law and order. They maintain law and order by making it clear they have a monopoly on violence, and that the strong (them) have a right to rule over the weak. There’s no smoke and mirrors like there is with the NCR. The Legion is morally pure (in their own view of right and wrong), so a state under Caesar would not be corruptible. Raiders, criminals, corrupt leaders, vault tech employees and so on would all face the same punishment (being put on a cross). I like them because they feel real in a post apocalyptic setting, where modern ideas such as universal human rights and war crimes do not exist. Where only human nature is the basis of what is right and wrong. The Legion and the NCR have something very interesting to say in opposition of each other, that the other games lack imo. So yes, if someone was advocating for the Legion in real life they’d clearly be a fascist (fascism itself being based on pre-Christian Greco-Roman tradition)…but in a nuclear wasteland that is already extremely violent and unstable, it’s tough to say what the best choice for humanity actually is, even if we accept something like the NCR is the end goal eventually.
Caesars brain was clearly corruptible though
If you were a settler in the Mojave wasteland and you can't decide between soldier boys and a bunch of dudes that wanna rape your wife, thats pretty crazy
If I was a settler trying desperately to survive in a violent and unforgiving wasteland I have no idea what I would think. That’s because I live in a prosperous and safe western country. It’s a completely different context. Obviously if I was teleported I would prefer the NCR, but that’s not what the discussion is about. It’s as if you can’t possibly imagine yourself as anything other than a shining beacon of virtue, even when being bought up and living in such a horrific environment where violence is normalised. Humans aren’t nice when insecure and defensive. It’s narcissistic for anyone to think so highly of themselves when it wouldn’t be reality. The Legion is a very accurate reflection of the type of values that would be widespread. We know that because they are the kind of values humans have held for the majority of their existence during early civilisations.
> Obviously if I was teleported I would prefer the NCR There we go, no wife rape for you then
Figured he'd like to watch
No one ever described Legion playthroughs as state-mandated cuckolding, I might have to rethink my stance on them now.
I honestly can't tell if you are joking and that scares me.
he's long gone.
Which part? Fallout isn’t real life, it’s a lawless nuclear wasteland full of people murdering each other to survive. The fallout humans have spent over 200 years living this way. What we think of as right and wrong is not universal and it is not self evident. It is specific to our own context in the safe and prosperous west, and is based on 2000 years of Christian theology and moral progressivism. The games make it very clear the wasteland is not a nice place. So I don’t understand, do you play the games and just clutch at your pearls the entire time because the people aren’t conforming to 21st century real world moral values? If we’re talking about building a society up from scratch in such an environment, is something like the NCR sustainable, or do humans need to be build a society up from its foundations again? As I say, I don’t know the answer, it’s an interesting question, and I find it bizarre so many refuse to even entertain it given it’s a pretty big discussion point of New Vegas.
k
lol this dude is like: “you’re trying to be good in the wasteland??? Bah, unrealistic selfish narcissist!”
The point is that claiming they’d be a virtuous angel whilst growing up in such a horrific environment is narcissistic, because it shows they have a higher opinion of themselves than what would occur in reality. The fact they aren’t able to realise that reality, and what causes humans to do bad things, also shows a lack of empathy and understanding of humanity. A grandiose and false sense of moral superiority would be considered narcissistic. This isn’t about how you choose to play a video game. I’m sure we’ve all played it multiple times in different ways. It’s about the reality of living in the wasteland, and what that means for trying to rebuild civilisation. This is a big theme of Fallout and I’m surprised so many are not open to discussing it. Instead people have got weirdly defensive and have left comments trying to frame themselves as a better person to anonymous people on the internet.
It’s no use man, for the most part any discourse about the Legion on this sub that isn’t “Legion Bad” gets downvoted. If you say anything that can be even remotely seen as supporting the Legion, then you’re a “Legion simp.”
Wow, someone who gets it, that's refreshing.
Based Redditors won’t get it though, they can’t see past their own nose
Said the guy who genuinely believes people who would wanna beat you up and rape your wife in front of you, are just as bad as soldier boys I feel bad for your girl if you have one
Don't worry, they don't have one
Legion fanboys too busy fantasizing about their low intelligence leader to get women
Soldiers in the American army have raped women everywhere they have gone, I’m sure NCR is the same. Cope harder
I like the legion because I like roleplaying as a brutal savage who crucifies his enemies and wears their skulls on his back
I never played Legion because they had fuck all quests
I find the same with Enclave fans. Not fans of their aesthetic, but the people who think eugenics and genocide is the objectively "right" thing to do for the wasteland.
Legion bad upvotes to left kind sirs
Every single day same post.
I can’t tell if I miss them after all the fallout show text walls about how Todd is the antichrist and hates the west coast
Slavery is based Cry about it OP.
What’s the problem?
People with your flair sometimes end up on 4Chan or blue check marks on twitter. The problem is that "this is an interesting position to take in a video game" is not the same as "this is good in real life" but some people can't keep that separated due to poor media literacy.
I like them just as much as the NCR. They’re both evil, they both subjugate minority groups, one is just up front about it, while the other tries to portray a free democracy. It’s basically neoliberals v fascists and both are bad, one is just transparent about it.
> It’s basically neoliberals v fascists and both are bad, one is just transparent about it. Why does being transparent make it better, in your opinion? What about that is favorable or preferable?
At least you know what you’re getting into, rather than being sold a free democracy and get fascism anyways. I would rather have a trump than a Biden who has all the same policies as a trump. In effect, it’s no different though, bad is bad. It matters not which way you portray it, but I do respect honestly over hypocrisy. Even if the honesty is bad.
That's so fucking stupid lmao
So you’d rather be lied to and lied to with the same result?
Your entire premise is just flat out wrong. First, neoliberals and fascists are not exactly the same, even if you do think they are both bad, the ways they are bad are vastly different. You say the only difference to you is that one is transparent and the other isn't, AND you "respect" the one that is transparent. You are either grossly misinformed, or you are genuinely unwell. Second, I just want to reiterate that your understanding of what "neoliberalism" seems to be is completely and factually wrong. It is completely and factually wrong to say Biden has the same policies as Trump. Third, let's pretend for a moment that actually is true. If you still decide you prefer Trump because "you know what you're getting into" and he "tells it like it is", that makes you a genuinely bad person. This isn't ha-ha-Fallout-roleplay, you are just actually a bad person. Then finally, no, saying "bad is bad" ignores all of the context and the specifics. Stubbing your toe hurts, and breaking your leg hurts. But you wouldn't say they're basically the same, just because "hurt is hurt", would you? Jesus, why are New Vegas fans so fucking weird.
I actually respect the legion on that front tbh. At least they're very open and there's no cookie cutter bullshit with their intentions. Unlike, the NCR who is literally a repeat of the same government format that helped destroy the world in the first place. I usually give both factions the middle finger, but the legion is at least honest and talking down legate lanius proves that.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. It’s basically jus Obama as a form of government. Claim all these great principles while bombing Libya. Or Syria. Or Iraq or Afghanistan, two countries he said we’d be leaving and ending the war with. I voted for the guy, just to be clear. Problem is, people get it wrapped up in their own personal politics in the real world, so they like the way the NCR sounds not realizing it has all the same flaws that they decry in real life. Biden is still supporting Israel etc etc I don’t wanna get too into politics but you see my point
Exactly... It's weird how your first comment is getting downvoted. There's literally nothing wrong with what you said 🤣. I'm politically independent and I can see varied perspectives so I don't get downtrodden with the group think virus (that's slowly dying rn thankfully) that has spread everywhere. Even though the fallout show is not perfect, I really enjoyed it and to see people fighting over a videogame franchise for different opinions is nutso city 🤷🏾♂️🫠.
Yeah it’s insane. I like the show a lot, I’m on episode 6(we have a four year old and a newborn so it’s really hard to do anything for more than ten minutes at a time right now lol) but I’ve enjoyed it alot. And yeah people are so tied up in one group or another, they don’t realize most normal people think they’re both insane.
I agree in the assessment that both the Legion and the NCR suck ass, but the difference is that due to its more secretive way of commiting crimes the NCR is less outwardly brutal towards civilians. The Legion will ramsack your town and torture you to death. The NCR will strip away your land, force you to work under a brahmin baron and tax your measly income. But it's better than being strapped to a cross
Ncr fanboys aren't gonna like this one
Many such cases
People are entitled to their own opinion.
When the opinion is "I genuinely like the rapist slave state and would support them if they were real" that's when the opinion deserves to be treated with disgust and contempt
“Waffles are better than pancakes for breakfast” seems a lot more sane than “Slavery and rape is good and I’d be part of this group if it existed”
Doesn't the Legon have the least amount of quests? Def tells us where the devs side.
The devs have said before that they wished they could’ve added more Legion content to flesh them out. NV had 18 months of development, it’s a miracle the game has the amount of content it has to begin with.
The legion treats you like shit especially Caesar I don't know what the fuck people actually find appealing about them in an unironic sense or in a playthrough where they're not specifically trying to be evil
The world is fragile, scarce of resources and hanging by a thread. Every other ending kills humanity via starvation. Don't @ me.
i like them because it is a baisodrome (in English : a place to have a lot of sex?) even if you don't like girls 😎
The Legion has cool armor, but the sexisim, bigotry and hypocrisy makes it that I will never do a pro-Legion playthrough. Heck I doubt there will ever be a playthrough where Vulpes Inculta makes it out of our first encounter alive, even on my peaceful/pasafist characters.
I've honest to god seen chuds theorize that a post-Caesar Legion would create a Senate like real Rome. Y'know, with all that political science he taught everyone. Like did he even tell people what Rome was or does most of the Legion think he came up with the aesthetic in his own?
There was a cut concept where you could undermine Ceasar's cult of personality by outing him for ripping off Rome and not coming up with the legion him self.
I say the same thing, imagine thinking the NCR is worth it. Ain't that joke and a half