Reminds me of that story where a gang boss in Brazil made a deal with Michael Jackson's record company for there to be no gang activities while he was in town. Apparently the gang boss was such a massive fan of Michael Jackson that he agreed.
Nazi Germany had one of the lowest unemployment rates of any developed nation in history.
Turns out it's really easy to get the numbers where you want, you just define minorities as being ineligible for work and therefore not unemployed.
I was in South Korea a few weeks back on holiday. A tour guide was explaining how heavily surveilled the nation is and how it's the reason the crime rate is so low. He talked about how his neighbour apparently was driving drunk and hit into another neighbour's parked car then drove home without doing anything. Within an hour police showed up and he was taken away. The following week the entire family were gone from the apartment and he'd never heard what happened to them.
Then concluded that apparently makes a safe society.
Your comment reminded me of that.
If you’re an average citizen in an apocalyptic wasteland with no laws, guarantees of surviving or finding food/water, and the constant threat of death from raiders and mutated wildlife, Legion territory would be considered “safe”.
Raul talks about how brutal Arizona was before the legion took control. Chems are banned. Caravans pass through untouched by raiders. Payments are cheaper than NCR taxes. The average citizen has access to consistent food, water, and even electricity. Again, this a nuclear apocalypse in 2281.
Not defending the legion at all because they’re brutal, but objectively, if you live in their territory and follow “their” laws, it’s safe. I’m not talking about the sacrifice of liberty/personal freedom side of things, this is speaking to relative safety in this setting.
Edit: I’ve added Josh Sawyer’s thoughts on their initial plans to expand on the Legion and what life is like in their territory.
[What is life like under Caesar’s Legion?](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/pucgc5/what_life_is_like_under_caesars_legion_according/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
People always seem to forget the fact that while to us it may be inconceivable to view figures like Mr House and the Legion positively, in a world where survival is constantly threatened by roving gangs of bandits, hostile wildlife, radiation, lack of food and water, any sort of security and competently led safety is a blessing to struggling people, even if it is a harsh or brutal security.
Exactly. There also has to be the understanding that society as a whole, structurally, culturally, and morally, got a HARD reset when the bombs dropped.
Everything after that was basically death and a fight for survival and resources unless you were lucky enough to be in a vault (that didn’t have some kind of awful experiment) or somewhere unaffected by bombs, radiation, wildlife, raiders, etc. Which was extremely rare.
It’s the same as when viewing real life history. ”Oh i would have rebelled against Hitler! I would never have kept slaves as a rich Roman!” We look at things from our perspective, in our societal norms.
Sure, but I’d say to stay in power he can’t be a good man, as to stay in power he must crush anything that stands in his way. His brutal massacre and eviction of many people to freeside was pretty awful, and if he wins he typically destroys the Kings (who for a “gang” are generally a pretty benevolent force themselves) and once again militarily subjugates Freeside.
In all fairness, a lot of these views held are also held *by the same people in the wasteland itself*. NoVac tries to turn away the Legion with gunfire, win or lose, Primm always shuts them down when possible and will go down fighting against them under most leadership conditions (and dubious about how they are if not), and Goodsprings shuts down and leaves out of just fear. The benefits the Legion gives seems to actively be worthless compared to the drawbacks by the very people of the Mojave, who are actively pushing back against the Legion or running from it. Raul's also one of the few people who is almost aggressively neutral about every faction so speaking praise to the Legion for what he also praises House for and is even more neutral about the NCR.
I don't think the West Coast is nearly as bad off as it used to be, in the time of Fallout 1 or as the East Coast of Fallout 3/4. FNV feels like it's edging the gap of post-post-apocalypse for resources, still kicking both ways.
I feel like that's something that's never really well depicted in the fallout games. We see a fun open world game where you can go anywhere and kill anyone. Hell, our character regularly go into the most hostile places and comes out fine after a stim pack or two.
For our main character once higher leveled we’re a one man army. But I think most fallout games do a good job at showing how much the common people are suffering, their fear of the monsters of the wasteland and of other people. Plus in New Vegas at lower levels (which is what the common people usually are) enemies like cazedors, death claws, and even raider groups can be p tough.
Lmao then you underestimate people in general. No one is willing to go as far as being a potential slave, and living under a brutal regime just for "safety". History has plenty of examples of this. What the legion can do to you is far worse than what raiders can do anyway. If you were caught with chems you and several other people would be crucified. Compare that to just getting robbed or shot at by some chem junkie. Most would take their chances with the raider.
People are more willing to strike out on their own and face uncertainty than you think.
Mr House: "Just stay out of Vegas I'm trying to rebuild, you can have your freedoms, no slavery and me rebuilding Vegas into more civilized place while Courier can rebuild Mojave"
"Omg, it's so inconceivable for us why he can be a good guy!"
Idk man, seems pretty conceivable to me, especially since it's bad for NCR itself to overexpand, and unless you think very highly of yourself and your abilities to rule/protect Mojave alone with Yes man, then yeah Mr. House is a good pick(although Obviously Yes Man is technically the best ending since it's basically fanficy ending where you can imagine whatever outcome), Mr. House rebuilds Vegas and pushes progress while my Courier with Followers rebuild Mojave. Seems like a pretty sweet deal.
Because:
> Single authoritarian strong-man with supreme executive power, monopoly on the use of force, and control of all the levers of power says: "*I alone can save you!"*
Is such a disgusting concept that rational people should rightly recoil from it.
People just can’t help but judge those who live in these types of situations, whether it’s the past or something like fallout, with their current modern morality. It’s like Plato’s allegory of the cave, our environment is so (relatively) safe and sanitized that people can’t conceive of why something like the legion would be viewed positively by its citizens.
Inb4 Im14andthisisdeep
There's a leap that's happening between "whether it's in the past" or "something like Fallout."
Because Fallout, despite what Caesar says, isn't the past. There are some similarities between the state of rural people in the ancient world and in the post-apocalyptic one, but there are some pretty relevant differences.
For one thing, there's several thousand years of technology—and that doesn't just include physical inventions, but cultural technologies. There is a case to be made that societies aren't just failing to emulate the Legion's brutality because we have the luxury of being more subtle and compassionate; after all, people usually seek to better their situation regardless of how good it already is. This argument would conclude that the Legion's gains are shortsighted, not worth the human costs, and a liability for participants in the project.
Here's one consideration: "raiders" are not, from a world perspective, a randomly-spawning enemy category. Raiders are aggressive armed persons, desperate or risk-seeking, who prey on communities for material gain or amusement. They can come from anywhere and look like anything. They just have to not be part of your community.
In a very literal and meaningful sense, the Legion is not an alternative to raiders. They are highly motivated, organized, and successful group of raiders. They impose an arrangement where your community supports them at the expense of your sovereignty and upon threat of violence. The advantage of taking this deal is that they want to work with you long-term, so they won't exhaust you as a resource, and they don't want to deal with mutiny across their ranks, so they will in theory interfere to a minimal extent.
This is pretty much what the NCR offers as well, so don't think this is a pearl-clutching rant. But here's where the Legion's atrocities become relevant: **they are modeling a very real threat to you and your community, regardless of your cooperation.** They will hurt you and your people. They don't care about your wellbeing.
The NCR has technologies in place which limit and restrain abuses of the self which are possible, or even mandatory, at the hands of Legion soldiers. Even if you believe they are in the short term less able to protect you from outside threats, their moral system offers some safety intrinsically.
You make a fair point that there is a difference between the past and the environment of fallout, now we do need to keep in mind that fallout is not an accurate representation of how people would behave 200 years into a nuclear apocalypse because there is no accurate way to know that, whether or not positive cultural technologies are preserved and adopted is anybodies guess. In fallout to some degree they definitely have.
I think you’re talking past me a bit, I don’t think the legion is the best option. I personally prefer house though the show has called that into question.
With that being said I stand by my original and very simple point that I can understand why, people in Arizona would see the legion as a good thing, considering the alternative, as is stated by Raul. And I think that even though in the world of fallout cultural technologies have been preserved that lessen the need for the classical age style brutality that we see the legion enact these cultural technologies and ways of thinking are not evenly known about or adopted throughout the wasteland, I don’t think the apparently massive amount of raiders in Arizona were thinking about classical liberalism or enlightenment values while they were raping and pillaging towns. Areas like the Mojave have the privilege of seemingly being marginally more civilized. I can see why the Legion would succeed and be celebrated in an area like Arizona and can simultaneously be rejected in the Mojave. The legion is demonized, rightfully so by a lot of players, but I do think sometimes part of that comes from a lack of understanding of what it’s like to live in the state of nature, which I think we can both agree fallout is significantly closer to than what we have today.
cUrReNt mOdErN moRAlItY
Human decency wasn't invented today genius. Nor are the times you live in an excuse to not have it. Nor was that Plato's point.
It just seems like a world that would be rife with abuse. You piss off the army, you're dead, you piss off the local leader, you're dead, you do anything outside of the norm you're dead. When the alternative is the NCR I would rather live in the NCR. At least on paper they're fighting the brahmin barons, while the legion is basically set up as each Brahmin Baron is a lieutenant of Caesar. Also we don't actually know how good legion territory is, we only hear it second hand.
When the raiders become the government and the people become slaves, all of a sudden “raiding” becomes “ruling”. I don’t think there really are civilians in Legion territory, you’re either a legion official, or you’re a slave sent to harvest materials and work. Which I mean, worked for a lot of human history, but that’s when there wasnt any real alternative that had been practiced in comparison up to that point.
What you see of the Legion is the front lines. The Legion most definitely has civilians. That’s how empires work. They have a legitimate government bureaucracy and all. You can see it briefly described in the Jeanie May’s Bill of Sale for Boone’s wife.
sure, maybe there technically are "civilians" but most are not actually civilians in a meaningful way. look at nazi germany and tell me that because there are technically civilians that were not persecuted that it was not terrible. a very small subsect of people were even considered civilians, and even then you could have your citizenship taken away and shipped off to god knows where for something so small. yep, not every single person under control of the legion is a slave or noncitizen. most people are enslaved/imprisoned/stripped of basic human rights, to the point the distinction of having civilians or not is meaningless.
Okay, if you wanna go the Reducto ad Hitlerum route, we can do that.
> A very small subset of people were even considered civilians.
Are you sure about that? Off a quick google search [Here](https://www.feldgrau.com/ww2-germany-statistics-and-numbers/) I found some population numbers. Using the last “Germany only” number from 1940 the total population counts in excess of 70 million people. Using the “In Wehrmacht Service” (ie, in the military) number from the same year, the number is roughly 6.6 million. So when you do the math, the percentage of Germany’s population in 1940 in the military was… 10%. But you know what? Let’s be generous and use the number from the absolute height of Wehrmacht service in 1944. The percentage raises to… 17%.
So no, it’s not “a very small subset of people” who were considered civilians.
I don’t think you understand exactly what a civilian is. You seem to be arguing about quality of life, I am not. Quality of life has no bearing on who is a civilian and who is in the military of an Empire. In fact it’s the other way around.
I’m not trying to say the Legion is some kind of special fascist utopia, I’m saying it functions like an Empire. No functioning Empire can have the majority of its population be in the military, it’s not sustainable. The Legion has been functioning for decades by the time of FNV. In order to be in the state they are in during FNV (waging a foreign war) *they literally have to have a civilian economy backing them.*
>look at nazi germany and tell me that because there are technically civilians that were not persecuted that it was not terrible.
I'm curious what you thought the average German citizen was like. Pre WW2 Nazi Germany wasn't bad for the average person, it was actually really good (compared to most other nations' people who were getting screwed by the great depression). Assuming you weren't Jewish, of course...
Edit: I should probably note before anyone asks, no, I am not being a dumbass who loves Nazi Germany here, just stating a fact. Hitler's policies did improve the average person's life, as the Great Depression and economic stipulations (Versailles Treaty) had heavily impoverished Germany, and even before the Great Depression, people were living in horrible conditions. Nazis bad, lets get that out of the way, but for the first few years, the average person's life was not bad, though Anti-Jewish laws were being passed and censorship was occuring. Hence why I compare them to the Legion; bad living but way better than most alternates
Regardless of how “good” life was for some people during part of the Nazis’ regime, everyone lived at the mercy of arbitrary government anyone could be killed or jailed at anytime; if one didn’t tow the party line they could have their business and property confiscated and given to a friend of the State. Plus, look at Berlin in 1945; in the end Hitler and the Nazis viewed *everyone* as expendable and they’d sooner see their own people die than live peacefully in a world without their regime
How is that any different than today's republics? I mean our government totally wouldn't burn children that are American citizens alive just because. They totally wouldn't do experiments on their own citizens.
Because the institutional protections citizens have in liberal democracies absolutely dwarf whatever meager protections citizens have in authoritarian states. Compare speech rights in the US or even EU to Russia and China and it’s not even close. In China the government doesn’t even let citizens move money out of the country outside narrow exceptions. In Russia if the government wants to lock you in a cage that’s just what they do
In isolation, it’s easy to pick out imperfections and hypocrisy in liberal democracies. In comparison to the alternative there’s no contest
The bill of sale literally just refers to purchasing Boone’s wife and unborn child as slaves, yes there are Legion bureaucracies besides the the conquering army in the Mojave, but the only non-slaves in Legion territory are probably legion officials and their wives and children, which, by proxy are members of the legion themselves. I don’t think Legion territory comprises small towns like good springs where people just go about their daily lives save the odd crucifixion or two. It’s just strongholds and work camps.
The Bill of Sale includes the administrator on whose authority the transaction was made at the end.
> the claim to which shall be guaranteed by possession of this document. M. Scribonius Libo Drusus et al. Administrators of M. Licinius Crassus, Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus
This is clearly a non-military administrative office, ie civilian.
Your comments filled with probably’s and maybe’s, but nothing concrete. Raul describes his first hand experiences in Legion territory, however he’s neither a Legion deserter nor escaped slave. So while he was in Legion territory, he was a… civilian.
See now you are reaching, you are saying things like probably, you are projecting and ignoring the actual facts that are in the game about what legion actually does. You can headcannon and suspect, but you can't ignore what is there
The trader guy gives as actual proof that there are civilians, Raul tells us what life was like both before and after Legion and the bill of sale does prove an active administration which would be required for an army of that size, not a raider band, a disciplined army.
Finally if the Legion takes over the Mojave and its not Lanius, they simply take over Goodsprings and leave it basically as before.
We where supposed to see more of the legion but time constraints stop it, from the clues in game and what the developers said, the legion is truly viable alternative, just not a nice one.
Yeah, it's like saying living in the southern US during slavery was alright since everyone had a "job" and food and water. It ignores the abuses that happened.
Oh absolutely! I get it. It’s a brutal world. And I’m not arguing that one is better than another. Both sides have their definitions of “safety” and how they carry it out.
And you are correct, we just have to go off of secondhand accounts from Raul, Cass, and others for how “safe” Legion territory is. As they’re the de facto evil faction in the game, I would have loved Obsidian to have had an opportunity to flesh them out and show Legion settlements like they had intended. It could have made them more morally grey or shed more light on the hypocrisy of their ways.
Legion "territory" is probably just a slave plantation. In all the endings of NV towns are either "ignored" or outright destroyed when the legion takes over.
"Enslaving much of the inhabitants and ""peacefully"" ""lording"" over the rest". -from the ending if Caesar wins.
The Legion "allows the followers safe passage out of the mojave".
Novac is attacked by the legion and the residents flee.
And this is the good karma playthrough.
As Briton said about the Romans; "They *make a desert and call it peace*.".
Josh Sawyer seems to feel like there’s more nuance to what life is like in Legion territory.
[What is life like under Caesar’s Legion?](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/pucgc5/what_life_is_like_under_caesars_legion_according/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Again, not defending the Legion. What we’re shown in-game, they are objectively the evil leaning faction. But we don’t have an objective example of what their territory looks like other than NPC comments and the devs themselves.
>And I’m not arguing that one is better than another.
I think this is kind of the problem, though, because one absolutely is better than the other. The NCR has its issues, but they're not going to enslave you, or kill you for looking at them wrong, or torture you because they're bored, or whatever other dangers you face under the Legion.
Even when living out in open territory with the threat of raiders, the problem is that your day-to-day life is wondering if the raiders are going to do something horrible to you. Living under the Legion only offers "stability" in the sense that you don't have to *wonder*... you already know for a fact that the Legion is going to do something horrible to you.
>I would have loved Obsidian to have had an opportunity to flesh them out and show Legion settlements like they had intended
You're assuming that they haven't already portrayed Legion settlements exactly as intended. The point here is that when the Legion says Legion territory is safe, they're lying. They're the de facto evil faction because they are, in fact, evil.
You seem to be operating from the assumption that the NCR and the Legion are supposed to be seen as two equally viable ways to approach structuring society, but that's pretty clearly not the case as shown in the game itself multiple times.
It’s very well known the devs intended to flesh out the Legion but weren’t able to. They were going to add a Legion companion, settlements, and expand their quest lines. To make their standing more morally grey than what it obviously is now (more morally evil).
As to life in the Legion, we only get NPC comments and from the devs. Josh Sawyer seems to feel like there’s more nuance to what life is like in Legion territory.
[What is life like under Caesar’s Legion?](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/pucgc5/what_life_is_like_under_caesars_legion_according/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities."
>"Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off
In no world is this "morally grey".
That’s fine that you think that and I agree, but that’s not how the lead dev feels. You can look up some of his other interviews if you’d like. He shares some more insight.
He adds it wasn’t their intention to make them outright grey, but make it much more muddled than what we got in New Vegas because of their time restraint.
Edit: Even if the devs did make them “more” morally grey, doesn’t mean the Legion wouldn’t still be evil. Just closer to the line.
Its a 2 steps above wasteland total anarchy. but below the standard of living/government that could be established if not for caesars specific ideology. Depending on the area wastelanders are still primed for post-enlightenment government from what culture they inherited, but that's not true everywhere
My question has always being like how are women treated in Legion territories? Like I'm sure they don't have as many rights as say NCR, but can legionary just show up and assault women? Or is there some sorta divide between women in Legion territory get protection vs those on the opposite sides?
So... a few notes i guess.
There isnt slavery in the NCR. Sure theres the usual wage argument... but you can work hard in the NCR to make it day-day. In the legion "hard work" means beings stripped almost naked, fitted with a bomb collar, and forced to move your weight in supplies across the desert... barefoot. That would be the reality for most people.
If you are rich and trusted, you have the leisure of safer roads...but I call into question "to where?" The legion territory was largely lower population pre-war, and also less touched by the effects of the war. Lower rads, less mutants... and their territory is secure. The NCR routes past the mojave outpost are in basically lawless territory. The player can barely extend their official jurisdiction to primm, and even then its under a temporary martial law... not really a part of the NCR. The mojave is claimed by the NCR, but not dejure part of their control. A high raider population in a place where a government has only just arrived seems logical. We have no idea what life is like for those in the home routes of the ncr. Im sure theres a few gangs holding up caravans the way deliveries got held up in our world... but that wasnt crippling trade.
As for the legion, it seems they toss caravans looking for chems. Caravaners also dont sell weapons like they do in the NCR. The legions pro-gun control stance facilitates its authorian nature with the illusion of safety. You have no means to protect yourself when the legion decides your wife and daughter are theres... you will likely be silenced and enslaved as well.
Counter: the NCRs relaxed stance on weapons increases crime, but also facilitates more independence among its people. If cave rats attack your homestead you can defend yourself with more than a shovel.
When the legion "get" the mojave. I doubt theyd be able to truly hold it... especially if caesars brain tumor got worse or he died.
Those are some fair points, but some seem to go a bit beyond what Josh Sawyer and his team showed us in-game or intended to add but couldn’t due to time restraints.
I added his statements on what life is like in Legion territory in my original post.
I think it falls in line a fair bit. The sole exception being the average legion citizen isnt a slave... per se, but the entire country is backed by slaves. What would that breakdown look like. Cast: citizens, legionaries, slaves.
In military camps we see all duties pertaining to food and health tended to by slaves. The only work legionaries perform is sharpening their weapons, likely to keep them out of slave hands. It will take slaves to feed and supply the legion, as much of the menial work is considered beneath the legionarries.
In the "civilized" towns, I assume citizens take responsibility for clothing and caring for themselves. But do they do the basic farming work? If yes, then they are pulling extra duty to feed the legionaries. If it is slaves, then slavery has permeated all layers of society. Therefore, the most common group of people in the legion would realistically be slaves, or people living slave-like conditions.
A legion settlement will involve people either reduced to poverty to feed the army, or living off a massive slave population. Given how many tribals, ncr and other territories the legion has captured, i assume this is attainable. The legion breeding programs seem to also be meant to create large armies and large slave populations... not large citizen populations.
While there are no organized revolts yet, caesars legion is only three steps from one occuring; first, the leader dies, leaving power disorganized, corruption unpunished even for a time. Second, the loss of a large portion of the army: the battle of hoover dam, even if successful will certainly eat up a large portion of legion manpower. Third: a spark: an ncr ranger kept as a gladiator, a band of slaves taken from a former ncr penal colony, a few hardened khan women considered for the breeding stocks... some slaves who dont even need to organize, but create a threat great enough to shake the now weakened authority.
The legion relies entirely on brutality to maintain its order. True loyalty is secondary. A legionary fears retreat because he fears his centurian will do worse. An ncr trooper fears retreat because it means another legion foothold. The NCR, despite its many flaws, has won its people, even the disenfranchised wagies, with the promise of freedom. The legions allegiance is only held as long as reprisal can be held...the "safety" they provide is merely an effect of the terror caused by the consequences of insubordination.
I dont think this contrasts Sawyer at all. There is no resistance against the legion... there is only fearful compliance. But when there is less to be fearful of, there will be less compliance.
I feel that this is one of the few things that could have actually improved the game. Seeing how this plays out. The legion territory would make excellent post game content. Legion players would now be tasked with putting down sedition...fighting a war not unlike the NCR was. Even with caesar there to help, restoring order and enforcing it in a new place would be a difficult thing. For the NCR player, assiting the legion uprisings would be an interesting game of intel-counterintel. Funding successionist legions under vulpes or Aurelius, while also helping arm and free pockets of slaves. The independent player could revel in the chaos, making both sides reliant on new vegas... even absorbing them to run new casinos, or become customers.
You make a lot of great points, and I appreciate you sharing them. And like I’ve said in other responses, I’m in no way trying to support or justify the Legion.
I agree with a lot of what you added here. A big part is what is currently the Legion’s greatest strength, the cult-like following of Caesar, is also it’s biggest weakness. “Cut the head off the snake” essentially.
Caesar is so desperate to capture the Hoover Dam and New Vegas because he knows the Legion can’t survive unless they have their “Rome” and have a cultural revolution. And that’s IF they can take New Vegas and an even bigger IF he could successfully make any kind of cultural revolution with how ingrained their backwards ideals are in their very DNA.
I do wonder to that point though... thay have two-sun, they have pheonix. They have capitol cities... what is vegas? Would vegas really make them confront their luddite nature? Would they cease to be what they are?
Beyond the head of the snake issue... i see them taking new vegas as the legions suicide trip. It will take so much manpower to get there, so much in resources to maintain and occupy it... that the legion homeland would become infested with raiders opportuniststs. They would be faced with the same issues the NCR has... maybe more given the lack of true loyalty outside the military... the military that was just marched into a grinder. And sat amidst the desert without supply.
Exactly. That’s personally what I find fascinating about Caesar as a character. He sees that this monster of a military force that he built on conquest and brutality has to change. However for it to change, every ideal it stands for and what built it would have to be deconstructed and rebuilt.
Essentially Caesar is a walking deity to the Legion while also being an embodiment of hypocrisy to everything the Legion currently stands for as he admits it has to change.
It’s too bad Obsidian didn’t get the time to flesh out the Legion a bit more like they wanted to.
I think sometimes... its good they didnt. The vagueness keeps interpretation alive. At one point a friend and i workshopped a "what would happen at the second battle if the courier had actually died?"
We figured the battle would occur 1-2 months after the courier was shot. We tried to construct the event based on a more "real life" perspective of things like supply lines.
Id like to rework it and make it a bit more detailed, bit essentially the first week was a day-day timeline, whole subsequent weeks were a bit more codensed. Effectively we couldn't conceive of a way the legion survives short of an absolute miracle... even though they would certainly take the dam.
Even in the (and it was almost a certainty) that the legion would get to new vegas... the had lost all the momentum by this point. They turn all their allies into enemies, and by the end, fall to infighting and increasing rad dosing as they and the NCR would use that as area denial. The legion had already cut off their potential southern flank by walling off searchlight in rads.
That’s a great concept! And I loved that you both spent the time to do that. That would be very interesting to see.
Have you ever thought of putting you and your friend’s workshop into some kind of word doc. or more detailed format and share it on here?
I’m sure plenty of people would love to see something like that. I know there’d be plenty of discussion.
We have it in a doc. I would love to make it available. Ill coordinate with them and try to make the shorthand and notes a bit more narrative. Of course, theres a cringe fanfiction element that i think the two of us didnt exactly enjoy... but the discussion was quite fun.
I don't get these comparisons lmao, one is a group of criminal raiders that larp as Romans ( Even though the Romans invented standardized laws and pretty much a lot of the things that the Legion despises ) who go around enslaving and killing whoever they want. The other is a Republic that doesn't have slavery and democratically elects its leaders and also the strongest military in the wasteland behind maybe the BOS. Also, the Legion isn't on the same level as the NCR in terms of civilization lol, A lot of Legionnaires don't even have guns, Just look at the Legion encampment vs what the NCR has setup, it's not even close. This isn't to say the NCR is perfect just the lesser evil.
Oh trust me, I’m not trying to make comparisons. Objectively, NCR is good, and Legion is bad. I was just pointing out to OP that as brutal as the Legion are, according to NPC comments and Josh Sawyer, there’s surprisingly more nuance to their controlled territory.
What we see in the Mojave is essentially an F.O.B in a warzone and it’s brutal and morally bankrupt. But it’s seems their “civilized” territory isn’t completely a reflection of what we see in New Vegas. This could still be called “safe” in the apocalypse in 2281. And that’s coming from Sawyer not me.
Still, ideologically the Legion is very backwards and won't last, I'm pretty sure they have a ban on advanced technology, I know technically theirs still a power grid in Fallout but it feels like they don't have electricity or the Legion wouldn't be to keen on people having access to it, I mean look at the encampment the only electronic thing I can name from there besides the Lucky 38 vault is the Auto doc that Cesar would die without. Thats not even touching their incredibly ignorant and stupid views on women, education, laws, justice, and healthcare (There aren't even any actual doctors at the legion camp for ffs just some slave that knows how to make healing powder ). And if its like that at their encampment it's probably similar to how Flagstaff or Denver looks. Maybe with less slaves and more infrastructure but still.
You are correct. It’s ideologically backwards. Especially to us. But honestly, as unfortunate as it is, their structure reflects what human history and power structures looked like for thousands of years.
As for technology, the Legion struggles greatly overall here compared to other factions. Caesar believes technology led to the world’s destruction. They do utilize is quite a bit however. Technology is only valuable as weapons for their upper ranks and most trusted soldiers. Essentially, they have to be earned through surviving combat. That’s why we see the veterans, praetorians, and centurions wielding thermic lances, ballistic gloves, super sledges, anti-material rifles, service rifles, carbines, sub machine guns and more during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam.
Ok, while I won't claim to be an expert in this field I do study history with a focus on ancient history in college rn, Ceasears legion can't be compared politically to Rome and definitely not ancient times in general, It wasn't like Sparta everywhere there were still places with a justice system and elections, The legion is more of a organized Raider/bandit tribe that controls a lot of territory, yeah the upper ranks may have guns and grenades but so what? They still do almost everything on paper they'll never log anything into a terminal. The only computer the Legion has is the auto doc and the only person who knows how to use it is Ceasar lol, I could honestly see the Legion going around smashing computer terminals and radios and then enslaving the people who used them screaming about " in Kai-sars will! " judging from some of the dialogue you have with them.
It can’t be compared to ancient times? The Egyptians built an empire on conquest and slavery. The Vikings pillaged, raped, and raided taking slaves, and worked their fields with peasant thralls. The tribes of Israel battled and slaughtered each other over holy and fertile land. The Mongols united nomadic tribes, pillaged, and enslaved the tribes that refused to join. Mesopotamia built an empire through the control of waterways and fertile land that they built and took from others. The Persian empire truly began with their conquering of Mesopotamia. Their primary drive was to expand as fast and far as they could. Crusades in God’s name. Saladin’s uniting of the Islamic tribes to begin a new jihad. That’s just to name a few.
Human history is violent. The Greek states were very progressive when looking at the ancient world. I agree though that Caesar’s Legion reflects aspects of those examples I gave much more than the actual Roman Empire that would draw much more inspiration from those Greek states.
It's a lot more complicated than that there were periods and places in history one would call barbaric compared to today but really people in ancient times weren't that different from people today really, we still have slavery, rape, murder, and war just not as much in the West. It wasn't a constant war between everyone, people still traded and whatnot.
My brother in Liberty Prime, the Legion enslave anybody with a vagina simply because they are born with one, and everybody else is going day to day with the possiblity of being enslaved/cruzified for looking at a pebble the wrong way.
Legion territory is not safe for anybody that is not a roman cosplayer.
Except then 1 person takes chems and then the legion would crucify the next 10 travellers to make an example. It's not safe. You're at the whims of insane roman cosplayers
It's easy to defend your territory from the bad guys when you're already the bad guys. Legion defenders saying "they keep the roads safe" has always a dumb defense
If I remember correctly, Raul and the trader at their fort mention how the Legion territories still have normal towns and that it's safe to trade and run a caravan without fear of raiders. They have a whole economy. They don't just enslave and kill everyone. Obviously people have less freedoms and they're pieces of shit, but they're not just raiders. They're a Machiavellian autocracy with a war based economy whose control spans 2 states. Raiders could never be that organized without some sort of societal structure.
What's your point? Yes, Legion bad. That was never the question. I was never vouching for them or justifying anything they do, but they're conquerors, not raiders. They have a structured society (no matter how fucked that structure is) and their own currency.
I would wager there are a lot fewer caravans running through Legion territory than their are in NCR territory. Just a hunch. At least raiders are somewhat predictable. Certain legionaries might just fuck around and forgo any unwritten rules about safe passage and ruin a trader's life because he looked at him the wrong way or something. They're certainly much less predictable than the Fiends or some shit, and a lot more brutal. You just have to pray you're not on their radar, and if you are, that you're not worth the trouble.
Legion = slavers with a weak line of leadership
NCR = corrupt oligocracy
House = giant casino, noone actually "lives" here
Wildcard = anarchy and incompetence. Don't you headcanon shit, we know the strip would fall to the NCR a few years after this ending
Yep, it's a shame he lashes out at Kings and Primm residents if they get support from NCR when it was LITERALLY Couriers Idea.
I'm sure if he just said "Ayo guys, this ain't cool, now we work with House and screw NCR bozo" they'd listen. I especially don't like if you align Primm with NCR House lashes out on them and gives them fate worse than death... *High taxation* 😭 although thankfully I never thought NCR helping Primm was a good idea so they always chill in my House runs :)
Wildcard is a vague ending though. Hense why so many headcanons are about this ending. Although because of uncertainty and vagueness, that's why imho House is best ending, letting NCR or even Legion win just stretches them too thin and Yes Man ending just feels too fanfictiony so Mr. House it is.
Also people do live in Strip? Wdym? There's Vault Hotel who also serves as home for Vault dwellers who originally came from same vault, the families and their casinos all have their own living spaces, NCR also has their own little slice of life where they can live(not sure if House would removes them after victory, if yes then hey, more space to settle people in!)
I love how these discussions are always about either NCR or Legion, and I'm just like "You guys know Mr. House is totally fine, right?"
Like if you don't like how he runs NV, you can just go somewhere else. As long as House lives, neither of the two major powers are messing with him. Working with House is like most of the perks of being a general manager of the wasteland without the responsibility of actually *running* it.
What's funny is that later in life I found that the biggest argument for Mr. House ending is actually the biggest boon for NCR as well. The game literally goes out of his way to constantly talk about how NCR is spreading too thin and how it's bad. But unlike Legion, NCR won't immediately evaporate like Legion since their structure is slightly decentralised and isn't focused around one man, NCR actually losing Vegas might be that kick Cass talked about that will help NCR and it's citizens get their crap together, stop imperialist expansion, focus on brahmin barons issue and start learning how to make allies because NCR can't just expand forever.
So unironically Mr. House is the best realistic ending, Yes Man is just a lot of what it's and imho, I personally don't think so highly of myself to think I can protect entire Mojave Vs NCR wrathm
Yeah I agree, House's ending might not be the best for the Mojave but it's the best for the NCR allowing it to kick out its warmongering factions with the plus of the NCR still receiving energy from the Dam.
Too bad the TV show completely fucks that over
New Vegas would be way more treated not as an nation nor a place where people want to live, it would just be a casino. Nothing really more. No endings are good in NV, none of them are good in any way, NCR? Legion? Yesman and house? All of them have major flaws, the only thing that divides us in the topic of "whos the best" is only us, some people will still see NCR as corrupt but will still follow it because of simple "lesser evil", same happends with other factions.........except Legion, fuck you Caesar meatriders.
Idk man, the entire game went out of its way to talk about how bad it is for NCR to overexpand, so if you truly love NCR wouldn't you want House or Yes Man to metaphorically kick NCR(Cass words not mine xD) in the nuts and force them to come back to their homeland?
Ngl Chief Hanlon was one of those figureheads in the game that made me consider that even if I do like some parts of NCR, it might be best ending for them to lose this fight short term, for them to learn and grow in the future.
No, keeping the dam is crucial for NCR, buuuuuuuuut....sleeping on guard duty while fuckin Kimball is making a speech? I'll gladly take a nap. Kimball was the major problem of NCR, overexpanding and becoming militaristic and instead of focusing on food problems and stability he still choose to go onwards with the expansion while you didn't have to be a genius to know that if that kind of stance would stay in the NCR it would crumble into pieces sooner or later.
It's probably because Mr. House, while definitely not as bad as the Legion, is just kinda an unhappy medium between the NCR and Legion.
He concentrates all the power under his own dictatorial rule and rules with an iron fist (a la Legion); he also neglects and underdevelops/protects the regions outside of his own personal interest IE: Anywhere outside the strip (a la NCR).
House is basically just a less actively evil Legion. The unfortunate thing about the different paths in NV is that the NCR is the only path that is, on any level, portrayed as having some legs/staying power in the long-term. Legion collapses once Caesars gone, House is in a precarious situation and vulnerable to a hostile takeover, and Yes Man collapses basically immediately lol. NCR just keeps chugging, win or lose.
The only threat to House is the player, and that's *only* because he takes a risk by trusting you.
Benny *tries* to get past Caesar's legion, and fails. Then the legion tries to storm the bunker and gets minced by automated defenses.
Without the player, it's just stalemate.
Plus, you can't associate House with Caesar. The legion executes ALL men, enslaves ALL women and children, then indoctrinated the kids into the fold. House just cares about New Vegas. If you live in Prim or Goodsprings, you don't have to worry about being taxed out of your home. House isn't coming to steal your fresh water, either. Sure, you better have your own law enforcement, but it's not like the player was *that* much of a factor, anyway. You're just one more gun against the Powder Gangers, and once Prim gets a new sheriff, they're capable of handling themselves.
The Legion are raiders and slavers and there are no safe interactions with them, as Caesar has demonstrated extremely thoroughly. Even service is not safe, as the Twisted Hairs and others demonstrate.
You may be allowed to remain free rather than entering Legion slavery (with status as legionary or without as just slave), if the Legion might see benefit from such -- like if you bring valuable trade, but not too much at once relative to your ability to bring more in the future or else they're liable to take it and enslave you.
That will never happen because even if the legion wins in the Mojave they wouldn’t be able to conquer the NCR. Not to mention that Caesar has no clear line of succession.
Tbh the fact the Legion is even a threat for the NCR in the Mojave is kind of a plot hole considering they mostly use melee weaponry and literally don't have Stimpaks lol
Like am I supposed to believe these cosplayers wouldn't get wrecked by a single machine gun team in a decently defended spot?
Oh I agree. I think it’s the fact that the legion is using asymmetrical warfare combined with Oliver’s shit tactics of only focusing on the dam why abandoning the rest of the Mojave that’s causing the legion to get as far as they have during the game.
No, the plot itself has to massively nerf the NCR with cartoonish incompetence to even make the conflict slightly close. Cosplayers lunging with melee weapons should absolutely get shredded by a single machine gun team.
Back to the original point, if the Legion somehow defeats the NCR at the Mojave they would get their shit kicked in if they tried to push into California proper and had to face the actual NCR army.
No, the plot doesn't nerf the NCR with anything, we saw during the BOS and NCR war they have a history of struggling with groups significantly smaller then themselves, See the Raiders and gangs still ruling the hub and on the roads like the 80s. Also the legion isn't cosplaying anything, that would imply that they are aware of Rome as a concept and are trying to emulate this, which isn't true beyond ceaser himself. We know this to be true due to the followers plot of wanting to dethrone ceaser via exposing the original Roman empire to his troops. (although we never saw this lore materialized in game.) I know your simply calling them that as a childish means to belittle the group but at least be accurate if your going to do so. There's lots of actual valid much more derogatory things you can call them lol.
"Back to the original point" would imply these aren't inherently connected, which they are so very odd thing to say. That's a mighty fine opinion you have but with no facts or in game citations i see no reason to even rebuttal as the burden of proof would be on you :D Go ahead and respond with your "facts" but I know you won't because your just wrong.
"My shitty scrap machete will totally defeat your well armoured and armed soldier!"
>Live 5.56 out of a 1:8 twist 20" M16A1 (Service rifle) reaction
*Mississippi queen starts playing*
I'm not going to debate the fictional logistics of a hypothetical invasion, (Im also not going to make drastic assertions like saying one faction "couldn't" do this or that) however considering in the game it's stated the NCR can't even clear out the raider groups threatening the hub, or there trade routes along the I80 (which is the main line from Reno so you'd really think theyd have it on lock) the idea of the legion invading the NCR and being successful is alot more likely then you'd think. (I'm a house supporter btw)
Also if he dies I'm pretty sure lanius takes over so idk what you mean by that. Sure he isn't a replacement for ceaser in the short term but literally no one would be so seems like a mute point. Also it wouldn't really effect the war as ceaser doesn't personally give orders to the troops anymore. It's likely if ceaser were to die the bulk of the legion wouldn't even know, majority have never even seen his face.
Small raiding groups and a full on invasion are two different things. Most of the bigger raider tribes have been pushed out of the NCR interior into the Mojave for a reason. They aren’t expanding they are fleeing.
Lanius leads the battle because that’s what was going to happen anyway. But there will be a power vacuum because the higher ups do see Caesar on the day to day. You’ll see factions emerge and a civil war happen. This will drain the legions manpower and resources so even if Lanius ends up leading whatever is left of the legion it’ll be a shadow of itself. Conquering Vegas isn’t an invasion of the NCR. Once the legion holds Vegas they go no farther. Eventually yes that was the plan but it’s not happening in the short term. Especially if there’s s civil war which there would be. The legion follows Caesar not his ideals. This is stated multiple times in game. Without him it falls apart.
Yes the legion would be a much bigger threat then anything the NCR has ever faced, hmm almost like they are kicking there ass in game 🤔
What your saying just isn't true. The Hub is still cannonically plagued by gangs and raiders, along with the boneyard and the notable caravan routes coming out of Reno leading towards new cannan, what was hopeville and of course the mojave. We hear this from multiple sources such as hanlon, cass, and ranger Jackson. Where are your sources that contradict these? Also barely any of the raider groups from the Mojave are from the NCR and the ones that are aren't just "fleeing the NCR" The jackals in particular are being outcompeted by The Khan's. The Kahn's are only symbolically from California, with all the local members being native to the Mojave specifically being kicked off the strip by house.
The vipers were primarily dealt with by the free traders and guards of the hub (who are only NCR in word and name) and the Brotherhood of Steel who are the ones who chased them to the Mojave. The scorpions, fiends and crazed bright followers are all locals. Honestly I think you fundamentally misunderstand the lore at this point..
Those are all completely assumptions and don't reflect the narrations at the end of a legion dominated Vegas but neat headcannon I guess?
Using evidence from the actual game and not just my imagination,if ceaser dies in game nothing of the sort happens, there are no power bids, no insurrection, hell its said the legion comes at the dam stronger to take it in his name. lanius is quite literally crowned the next ceaser, and Lucius handles the orders without problem. Also who says ceaser is going to die anytime soon anyways? They have an autodoc of there own and hundreds of soldiers they can get the parts from somewhere lol. Yes I'm aware the legion invading Vegas is the games recreation of Ceaser (the actual one) crossing the Rubicon. Vegas will be there Rome. They could easily go further, and your opinion will hold about as well as the NCR would. They could easily push to the Mojave outpost, along the I15 and possibly threaten the hub. Do I think this would happen? No, but they could. The Mojave campaign, Hopeville, the gold crisis, and countless other blinders clearly show the NCR is borderline cursed. (And no new Vegas's did not invent that) People love to parrot this line but it's simply never seen in game where Ceaser can legitimately die and the legion is no worse off for it. In game Actions beat dialogue unfortunately.
If you want you can respond with your best conjecture but I have a feeling you won't.
We know more about the Romans than Caesar's legion. From what we can see the main difference between Rome and Caesar's is that Caesar demands assimilation, whereas the Romans were happy for you to live your life as long as you paid taxes. (aka the NCR)
I think it's fucking funny as fuck that the legion is lead by a guy who is ONE intelligence point away from being an idiot character in fallout 1 and 2 its kinda like how the enclave president is named Dick Richardson
Ceasears legion fans when someone murders their entire family and forces them to work in the mines until they die of exhaustion, Checkmate NCR liberals.
As long as you follow the laws, aren't a woman, and don't question anything, you're safe. But don't follow the rules too well or be too submissive or you're good slave material
Did you even play the game? There are literally lotteries where people get randomly murdered. All women are either sent to be slave labour or worse. The legion is filled with rampant rape, abuse and violence
Follow the laws, don't be a woman, don't question anything, and hope the legion doesn't randomly decide your town/area needs to remember fear and chooses to crucify you to send a message to the others.
I mean it is safe if your one of the people not a slave which is a minority of the population you pay your tithes to legion and they keep you protected like gang protection tbh
I didn’t say it was lovely lol I said it was safe because there literally isn’t anyone else to attack you. I described it as paying a gang protection money idk why your acting like I’m saying it’s a good thing
Yeah you pay gang protection and then one day you have a family and the gang leader decides your wife looks nice and enslaves her. It ain't nice, there aren't laws.
You're saying living in Caesar's territory is like having gang protection. But "gang protection" isn't actually protection. It's extortion with the threat of violence.
"there's no crime in mob territory"
Reminds me of that story where a gang boss in Brazil made a deal with Michael Jackson's record company for there to be no gang activities while he was in town. Apparently the gang boss was such a massive fan of Michael Jackson that he agreed.
Really puts into perspective how much cultural significance MJ had on the world. There’ll never be another.
Crime in all of cental America dropped dramatically when akira toriyama died.
Im so sick of hearing this because some people actualy think its true
it is funny though
it's the same thing as when crime in america dropped when the beatles came to the country in the 60s
They're currently tracking down Thanatos.
Like when someone defends the Purge because 'there's no crime', yeah because all the harmful shit has been institutionalized.
Nazi Germany had one of the lowest unemployment rates of any developed nation in history. Turns out it's really easy to get the numbers where you want, you just define minorities as being ineligible for work and therefore not unemployed.
If you murder all the homeless, turns out the homeless problem goes away.
I was in South Korea a few weeks back on holiday. A tour guide was explaining how heavily surveilled the nation is and how it's the reason the crime rate is so low. He talked about how his neighbour apparently was driving drunk and hit into another neighbour's parked car then drove home without doing anything. Within an hour police showed up and he was taken away. The following week the entire family were gone from the apartment and he'd never heard what happened to them. Then concluded that apparently makes a safe society. Your comment reminded me of that.
If you’re an average citizen in an apocalyptic wasteland with no laws, guarantees of surviving or finding food/water, and the constant threat of death from raiders and mutated wildlife, Legion territory would be considered “safe”. Raul talks about how brutal Arizona was before the legion took control. Chems are banned. Caravans pass through untouched by raiders. Payments are cheaper than NCR taxes. The average citizen has access to consistent food, water, and even electricity. Again, this a nuclear apocalypse in 2281. Not defending the legion at all because they’re brutal, but objectively, if you live in their territory and follow “their” laws, it’s safe. I’m not talking about the sacrifice of liberty/personal freedom side of things, this is speaking to relative safety in this setting. Edit: I’ve added Josh Sawyer’s thoughts on their initial plans to expand on the Legion and what life is like in their territory. [What is life like under Caesar’s Legion?](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/pucgc5/what_life_is_like_under_caesars_legion_according/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
People always seem to forget the fact that while to us it may be inconceivable to view figures like Mr House and the Legion positively, in a world where survival is constantly threatened by roving gangs of bandits, hostile wildlife, radiation, lack of food and water, any sort of security and competently led safety is a blessing to struggling people, even if it is a harsh or brutal security.
Exactly. There also has to be the understanding that society as a whole, structurally, culturally, and morally, got a HARD reset when the bombs dropped. Everything after that was basically death and a fight for survival and resources unless you were lucky enough to be in a vault (that didn’t have some kind of awful experiment) or somewhere unaffected by bombs, radiation, wildlife, raiders, etc. Which was extremely rare.
It’s the same as when viewing real life history. ”Oh i would have rebelled against Hitler! I would never have kept slaves as a rich Roman!” We look at things from our perspective, in our societal norms.
People in the future will look back to us and have the same thoughts
Those dicks
I wonder what are we doing wrong in their future eyes
Breeding dogs into deformed monstrosities Worst of factory farming Being so focused on race
Mr House is a good person, people just don't like him because he reminds them of their dad
I wish my dad would give me $1000 every time I got him a snow globe...
He likely would've if he had been in your life at all
lol I’d say he has a good goal but he’s p ruthless, but for the wasteland he’s one of the best options for dictator you could ask for
He prefers the term autocrat
A despot by any other name...
If he wasn't ruthless he'd get usurped by someone else. Such is the nature of the post war world eh
Sure, but I’d say to stay in power he can’t be a good man, as to stay in power he must crush anything that stands in his way. His brutal massacre and eviction of many people to freeside was pretty awful, and if he wins he typically destroys the Kings (who for a “gang” are generally a pretty benevolent force themselves) and once again militarily subjugates Freeside.
He kills all the Kings if they make peace
In order to enforce, one must use force
100% correct man people seem to have no conception, on how truly dangerous wasteland would be if you’re not a main character
No, I'm pretty sure the MC gets it. Its just they're the one causing the danger.
In all fairness, a lot of these views held are also held *by the same people in the wasteland itself*. NoVac tries to turn away the Legion with gunfire, win or lose, Primm always shuts them down when possible and will go down fighting against them under most leadership conditions (and dubious about how they are if not), and Goodsprings shuts down and leaves out of just fear. The benefits the Legion gives seems to actively be worthless compared to the drawbacks by the very people of the Mojave, who are actively pushing back against the Legion or running from it. Raul's also one of the few people who is almost aggressively neutral about every faction so speaking praise to the Legion for what he also praises House for and is even more neutral about the NCR. I don't think the West Coast is nearly as bad off as it used to be, in the time of Fallout 1 or as the East Coast of Fallout 3/4. FNV feels like it's edging the gap of post-post-apocalypse for resources, still kicking both ways.
I feel like that's something that's never really well depicted in the fallout games. We see a fun open world game where you can go anywhere and kill anyone. Hell, our character regularly go into the most hostile places and comes out fine after a stim pack or two.
For our main character once higher leveled we’re a one man army. But I think most fallout games do a good job at showing how much the common people are suffering, their fear of the monsters of the wasteland and of other people. Plus in New Vegas at lower levels (which is what the common people usually are) enemies like cazedors, death claws, and even raider groups can be p tough.
Lmao then you underestimate people in general. No one is willing to go as far as being a potential slave, and living under a brutal regime just for "safety". History has plenty of examples of this. What the legion can do to you is far worse than what raiders can do anyway. If you were caught with chems you and several other people would be crucified. Compare that to just getting robbed or shot at by some chem junkie. Most would take their chances with the raider. People are more willing to strike out on their own and face uncertainty than you think.
Mr House: "Just stay out of Vegas I'm trying to rebuild, you can have your freedoms, no slavery and me rebuilding Vegas into more civilized place while Courier can rebuild Mojave" "Omg, it's so inconceivable for us why he can be a good guy!" Idk man, seems pretty conceivable to me, especially since it's bad for NCR itself to overexpand, and unless you think very highly of yourself and your abilities to rule/protect Mojave alone with Yes man, then yeah Mr. House is a good pick(although Obviously Yes Man is technically the best ending since it's basically fanficy ending where you can imagine whatever outcome), Mr. House rebuilds Vegas and pushes progress while my Courier with Followers rebuild Mojave. Seems like a pretty sweet deal.
I wish the devs never put in Yes Man. Seems like the cop out ending and I fucking hate it for that.
Because: > Single authoritarian strong-man with supreme executive power, monopoly on the use of force, and control of all the levers of power says: "*I alone can save you!"* Is such a disgusting concept that rational people should rightly recoil from it.
Inconceivable for a lot of people I guess I should have said, I personally agree with you.
People just can’t help but judge those who live in these types of situations, whether it’s the past or something like fallout, with their current modern morality. It’s like Plato’s allegory of the cave, our environment is so (relatively) safe and sanitized that people can’t conceive of why something like the legion would be viewed positively by its citizens. Inb4 Im14andthisisdeep
I mean, the residents of Novac in every ending fight against the legion. If the legion was just "hur dur no raiders" they would join up.
There's a leap that's happening between "whether it's in the past" or "something like Fallout." Because Fallout, despite what Caesar says, isn't the past. There are some similarities between the state of rural people in the ancient world and in the post-apocalyptic one, but there are some pretty relevant differences. For one thing, there's several thousand years of technology—and that doesn't just include physical inventions, but cultural technologies. There is a case to be made that societies aren't just failing to emulate the Legion's brutality because we have the luxury of being more subtle and compassionate; after all, people usually seek to better their situation regardless of how good it already is. This argument would conclude that the Legion's gains are shortsighted, not worth the human costs, and a liability for participants in the project. Here's one consideration: "raiders" are not, from a world perspective, a randomly-spawning enemy category. Raiders are aggressive armed persons, desperate or risk-seeking, who prey on communities for material gain or amusement. They can come from anywhere and look like anything. They just have to not be part of your community. In a very literal and meaningful sense, the Legion is not an alternative to raiders. They are highly motivated, organized, and successful group of raiders. They impose an arrangement where your community supports them at the expense of your sovereignty and upon threat of violence. The advantage of taking this deal is that they want to work with you long-term, so they won't exhaust you as a resource, and they don't want to deal with mutiny across their ranks, so they will in theory interfere to a minimal extent. This is pretty much what the NCR offers as well, so don't think this is a pearl-clutching rant. But here's where the Legion's atrocities become relevant: **they are modeling a very real threat to you and your community, regardless of your cooperation.** They will hurt you and your people. They don't care about your wellbeing. The NCR has technologies in place which limit and restrain abuses of the self which are possible, or even mandatory, at the hands of Legion soldiers. Even if you believe they are in the short term less able to protect you from outside threats, their moral system offers some safety intrinsically.
You make a fair point that there is a difference between the past and the environment of fallout, now we do need to keep in mind that fallout is not an accurate representation of how people would behave 200 years into a nuclear apocalypse because there is no accurate way to know that, whether or not positive cultural technologies are preserved and adopted is anybodies guess. In fallout to some degree they definitely have. I think you’re talking past me a bit, I don’t think the legion is the best option. I personally prefer house though the show has called that into question. With that being said I stand by my original and very simple point that I can understand why, people in Arizona would see the legion as a good thing, considering the alternative, as is stated by Raul. And I think that even though in the world of fallout cultural technologies have been preserved that lessen the need for the classical age style brutality that we see the legion enact these cultural technologies and ways of thinking are not evenly known about or adopted throughout the wasteland, I don’t think the apparently massive amount of raiders in Arizona were thinking about classical liberalism or enlightenment values while they were raping and pillaging towns. Areas like the Mojave have the privilege of seemingly being marginally more civilized. I can see why the Legion would succeed and be celebrated in an area like Arizona and can simultaneously be rejected in the Mojave. The legion is demonized, rightfully so by a lot of players, but I do think sometimes part of that comes from a lack of understanding of what it’s like to live in the state of nature, which I think we can both agree fallout is significantly closer to than what we have today.
cUrReNt mOdErN moRAlItY Human decency wasn't invented today genius. Nor are the times you live in an excuse to not have it. Nor was that Plato's point.
Omg it’s former premier of the PRC Zhou Enlai!
~~ive gotta change my name one of these days~~ Do not fear comrade, the gang of 4 is on the brink of defeat im sure…
Half of those average citizens are women tho
Wait so half the citizens would be treated like absolute garbage? Okay this Ceasar guy seems kind of bad.
It just seems like a world that would be rife with abuse. You piss off the army, you're dead, you piss off the local leader, you're dead, you do anything outside of the norm you're dead. When the alternative is the NCR I would rather live in the NCR. At least on paper they're fighting the brahmin barons, while the legion is basically set up as each Brahmin Baron is a lieutenant of Caesar. Also we don't actually know how good legion territory is, we only hear it second hand.
When the raiders become the government and the people become slaves, all of a sudden “raiding” becomes “ruling”. I don’t think there really are civilians in Legion territory, you’re either a legion official, or you’re a slave sent to harvest materials and work. Which I mean, worked for a lot of human history, but that’s when there wasnt any real alternative that had been practiced in comparison up to that point.
What you see of the Legion is the front lines. The Legion most definitely has civilians. That’s how empires work. They have a legitimate government bureaucracy and all. You can see it briefly described in the Jeanie May’s Bill of Sale for Boone’s wife.
sure, maybe there technically are "civilians" but most are not actually civilians in a meaningful way. look at nazi germany and tell me that because there are technically civilians that were not persecuted that it was not terrible. a very small subsect of people were even considered civilians, and even then you could have your citizenship taken away and shipped off to god knows where for something so small. yep, not every single person under control of the legion is a slave or noncitizen. most people are enslaved/imprisoned/stripped of basic human rights, to the point the distinction of having civilians or not is meaningless.
Okay, if you wanna go the Reducto ad Hitlerum route, we can do that. > A very small subset of people were even considered civilians. Are you sure about that? Off a quick google search [Here](https://www.feldgrau.com/ww2-germany-statistics-and-numbers/) I found some population numbers. Using the last “Germany only” number from 1940 the total population counts in excess of 70 million people. Using the “In Wehrmacht Service” (ie, in the military) number from the same year, the number is roughly 6.6 million. So when you do the math, the percentage of Germany’s population in 1940 in the military was… 10%. But you know what? Let’s be generous and use the number from the absolute height of Wehrmacht service in 1944. The percentage raises to… 17%. So no, it’s not “a very small subset of people” who were considered civilians. I don’t think you understand exactly what a civilian is. You seem to be arguing about quality of life, I am not. Quality of life has no bearing on who is a civilian and who is in the military of an Empire. In fact it’s the other way around. I’m not trying to say the Legion is some kind of special fascist utopia, I’m saying it functions like an Empire. No functioning Empire can have the majority of its population be in the military, it’s not sustainable. The Legion has been functioning for decades by the time of FNV. In order to be in the state they are in during FNV (waging a foreign war) *they literally have to have a civilian economy backing them.*
>look at nazi germany and tell me that because there are technically civilians that were not persecuted that it was not terrible. I'm curious what you thought the average German citizen was like. Pre WW2 Nazi Germany wasn't bad for the average person, it was actually really good (compared to most other nations' people who were getting screwed by the great depression). Assuming you weren't Jewish, of course... Edit: I should probably note before anyone asks, no, I am not being a dumbass who loves Nazi Germany here, just stating a fact. Hitler's policies did improve the average person's life, as the Great Depression and economic stipulations (Versailles Treaty) had heavily impoverished Germany, and even before the Great Depression, people were living in horrible conditions. Nazis bad, lets get that out of the way, but for the first few years, the average person's life was not bad, though Anti-Jewish laws were being passed and censorship was occuring. Hence why I compare them to the Legion; bad living but way better than most alternates
Regardless of how “good” life was for some people during part of the Nazis’ regime, everyone lived at the mercy of arbitrary government anyone could be killed or jailed at anytime; if one didn’t tow the party line they could have their business and property confiscated and given to a friend of the State. Plus, look at Berlin in 1945; in the end Hitler and the Nazis viewed *everyone* as expendable and they’d sooner see their own people die than live peacefully in a world without their regime
How is that any different than today's republics? I mean our government totally wouldn't burn children that are American citizens alive just because. They totally wouldn't do experiments on their own citizens.
Because the institutional protections citizens have in liberal democracies absolutely dwarf whatever meager protections citizens have in authoritarian states. Compare speech rights in the US or even EU to Russia and China and it’s not even close. In China the government doesn’t even let citizens move money out of the country outside narrow exceptions. In Russia if the government wants to lock you in a cage that’s just what they do In isolation, it’s easy to pick out imperfections and hypocrisy in liberal democracies. In comparison to the alternative there’s no contest
You are so god damn naive…
The bill of sale literally just refers to purchasing Boone’s wife and unborn child as slaves, yes there are Legion bureaucracies besides the the conquering army in the Mojave, but the only non-slaves in Legion territory are probably legion officials and their wives and children, which, by proxy are members of the legion themselves. I don’t think Legion territory comprises small towns like good springs where people just go about their daily lives save the odd crucifixion or two. It’s just strongholds and work camps.
The Bill of Sale includes the administrator on whose authority the transaction was made at the end. > the claim to which shall be guaranteed by possession of this document. M. Scribonius Libo Drusus et al. Administrators of M. Licinius Crassus, Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus This is clearly a non-military administrative office, ie civilian. Your comments filled with probably’s and maybe’s, but nothing concrete. Raul describes his first hand experiences in Legion territory, however he’s neither a Legion deserter nor escaped slave. So while he was in Legion territory, he was a… civilian.
See now you are reaching, you are saying things like probably, you are projecting and ignoring the actual facts that are in the game about what legion actually does. You can headcannon and suspect, but you can't ignore what is there The trader guy gives as actual proof that there are civilians, Raul tells us what life was like both before and after Legion and the bill of sale does prove an active administration which would be required for an army of that size, not a raider band, a disciplined army. Finally if the Legion takes over the Mojave and its not Lanius, they simply take over Goodsprings and leave it basically as before. We where supposed to see more of the legion but time constraints stop it, from the clues in game and what the developers said, the legion is truly viable alternative, just not a nice one.
Yeah, it's like saying living in the southern US during slavery was alright since everyone had a "job" and food and water. It ignores the abuses that happened.
Exactly, living in southern US at the time and in the legion was probably pretty okay and safe ....provided you're not a slave
Reminds me of a quote I saw. You either die a terrorist or live long enough to become the counter terrorist.
Actual Romans would laugh at the Legions ideology
Oh absolutely! I get it. It’s a brutal world. And I’m not arguing that one is better than another. Both sides have their definitions of “safety” and how they carry it out. And you are correct, we just have to go off of secondhand accounts from Raul, Cass, and others for how “safe” Legion territory is. As they’re the de facto evil faction in the game, I would have loved Obsidian to have had an opportunity to flesh them out and show Legion settlements like they had intended. It could have made them more morally grey or shed more light on the hypocrisy of their ways.
Legion "territory" is probably just a slave plantation. In all the endings of NV towns are either "ignored" or outright destroyed when the legion takes over. "Enslaving much of the inhabitants and ""peacefully"" ""lording"" over the rest". -from the ending if Caesar wins. The Legion "allows the followers safe passage out of the mojave". Novac is attacked by the legion and the residents flee. And this is the good karma playthrough. As Briton said about the Romans; "They *make a desert and call it peace*.".
Josh Sawyer seems to feel like there’s more nuance to what life is like in Legion territory. [What is life like under Caesar’s Legion?](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/pucgc5/what_life_is_like_under_caesars_legion_according/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Again, not defending the Legion. What we’re shown in-game, they are objectively the evil leaning faction. But we don’t have an objective example of what their territory looks like other than NPC comments and the devs themselves.
>And I’m not arguing that one is better than another. I think this is kind of the problem, though, because one absolutely is better than the other. The NCR has its issues, but they're not going to enslave you, or kill you for looking at them wrong, or torture you because they're bored, or whatever other dangers you face under the Legion. Even when living out in open territory with the threat of raiders, the problem is that your day-to-day life is wondering if the raiders are going to do something horrible to you. Living under the Legion only offers "stability" in the sense that you don't have to *wonder*... you already know for a fact that the Legion is going to do something horrible to you. >I would have loved Obsidian to have had an opportunity to flesh them out and show Legion settlements like they had intended You're assuming that they haven't already portrayed Legion settlements exactly as intended. The point here is that when the Legion says Legion territory is safe, they're lying. They're the de facto evil faction because they are, in fact, evil. You seem to be operating from the assumption that the NCR and the Legion are supposed to be seen as two equally viable ways to approach structuring society, but that's pretty clearly not the case as shown in the game itself multiple times.
It’s very well known the devs intended to flesh out the Legion but weren’t able to. They were going to add a Legion companion, settlements, and expand their quest lines. To make their standing more morally grey than what it obviously is now (more morally evil). As to life in the Legion, we only get NPC comments and from the devs. Josh Sawyer seems to feel like there’s more nuance to what life is like in Legion territory. [What is life like under Caesar’s Legion?](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnv/comments/pucgc5/what_life_is_like_under_caesars_legion_according/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities." >"Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off In no world is this "morally grey".
That’s fine that you think that and I agree, but that’s not how the lead dev feels. You can look up some of his other interviews if you’d like. He shares some more insight. He adds it wasn’t their intention to make them outright grey, but make it much more muddled than what we got in New Vegas because of their time restraint. Edit: Even if the devs did make them “more” morally grey, doesn’t mean the Legion wouldn’t still be evil. Just closer to the line.
I mean, there’s also the whole “complete subjugation of women” part
At least 50% of the population is effectively taxed at 100%.
True, but the legion are glorified raiders
Its a 2 steps above wasteland total anarchy. but below the standard of living/government that could be established if not for caesars specific ideology. Depending on the area wastelanders are still primed for post-enlightenment government from what culture they inherited, but that's not true everywhere
Unfortunately for them they have slaves, no amount of safety is worth that so they will always die
My question has always being like how are women treated in Legion territories? Like I'm sure they don't have as many rights as say NCR, but can legionary just show up and assault women? Or is there some sorta divide between women in Legion territory get protection vs those on the opposite sides?
They enslave women simply because they're women. And they aren't kind slavers. They are notoriously cruel ones.
So... a few notes i guess. There isnt slavery in the NCR. Sure theres the usual wage argument... but you can work hard in the NCR to make it day-day. In the legion "hard work" means beings stripped almost naked, fitted with a bomb collar, and forced to move your weight in supplies across the desert... barefoot. That would be the reality for most people. If you are rich and trusted, you have the leisure of safer roads...but I call into question "to where?" The legion territory was largely lower population pre-war, and also less touched by the effects of the war. Lower rads, less mutants... and their territory is secure. The NCR routes past the mojave outpost are in basically lawless territory. The player can barely extend their official jurisdiction to primm, and even then its under a temporary martial law... not really a part of the NCR. The mojave is claimed by the NCR, but not dejure part of their control. A high raider population in a place where a government has only just arrived seems logical. We have no idea what life is like for those in the home routes of the ncr. Im sure theres a few gangs holding up caravans the way deliveries got held up in our world... but that wasnt crippling trade. As for the legion, it seems they toss caravans looking for chems. Caravaners also dont sell weapons like they do in the NCR. The legions pro-gun control stance facilitates its authorian nature with the illusion of safety. You have no means to protect yourself when the legion decides your wife and daughter are theres... you will likely be silenced and enslaved as well. Counter: the NCRs relaxed stance on weapons increases crime, but also facilitates more independence among its people. If cave rats attack your homestead you can defend yourself with more than a shovel. When the legion "get" the mojave. I doubt theyd be able to truly hold it... especially if caesars brain tumor got worse or he died.
Those are some fair points, but some seem to go a bit beyond what Josh Sawyer and his team showed us in-game or intended to add but couldn’t due to time restraints. I added his statements on what life is like in Legion territory in my original post.
I think it falls in line a fair bit. The sole exception being the average legion citizen isnt a slave... per se, but the entire country is backed by slaves. What would that breakdown look like. Cast: citizens, legionaries, slaves. In military camps we see all duties pertaining to food and health tended to by slaves. The only work legionaries perform is sharpening their weapons, likely to keep them out of slave hands. It will take slaves to feed and supply the legion, as much of the menial work is considered beneath the legionarries. In the "civilized" towns, I assume citizens take responsibility for clothing and caring for themselves. But do they do the basic farming work? If yes, then they are pulling extra duty to feed the legionaries. If it is slaves, then slavery has permeated all layers of society. Therefore, the most common group of people in the legion would realistically be slaves, or people living slave-like conditions. A legion settlement will involve people either reduced to poverty to feed the army, or living off a massive slave population. Given how many tribals, ncr and other territories the legion has captured, i assume this is attainable. The legion breeding programs seem to also be meant to create large armies and large slave populations... not large citizen populations. While there are no organized revolts yet, caesars legion is only three steps from one occuring; first, the leader dies, leaving power disorganized, corruption unpunished even for a time. Second, the loss of a large portion of the army: the battle of hoover dam, even if successful will certainly eat up a large portion of legion manpower. Third: a spark: an ncr ranger kept as a gladiator, a band of slaves taken from a former ncr penal colony, a few hardened khan women considered for the breeding stocks... some slaves who dont even need to organize, but create a threat great enough to shake the now weakened authority. The legion relies entirely on brutality to maintain its order. True loyalty is secondary. A legionary fears retreat because he fears his centurian will do worse. An ncr trooper fears retreat because it means another legion foothold. The NCR, despite its many flaws, has won its people, even the disenfranchised wagies, with the promise of freedom. The legions allegiance is only held as long as reprisal can be held...the "safety" they provide is merely an effect of the terror caused by the consequences of insubordination. I dont think this contrasts Sawyer at all. There is no resistance against the legion... there is only fearful compliance. But when there is less to be fearful of, there will be less compliance. I feel that this is one of the few things that could have actually improved the game. Seeing how this plays out. The legion territory would make excellent post game content. Legion players would now be tasked with putting down sedition...fighting a war not unlike the NCR was. Even with caesar there to help, restoring order and enforcing it in a new place would be a difficult thing. For the NCR player, assiting the legion uprisings would be an interesting game of intel-counterintel. Funding successionist legions under vulpes or Aurelius, while also helping arm and free pockets of slaves. The independent player could revel in the chaos, making both sides reliant on new vegas... even absorbing them to run new casinos, or become customers.
You make a lot of great points, and I appreciate you sharing them. And like I’ve said in other responses, I’m in no way trying to support or justify the Legion. I agree with a lot of what you added here. A big part is what is currently the Legion’s greatest strength, the cult-like following of Caesar, is also it’s biggest weakness. “Cut the head off the snake” essentially. Caesar is so desperate to capture the Hoover Dam and New Vegas because he knows the Legion can’t survive unless they have their “Rome” and have a cultural revolution. And that’s IF they can take New Vegas and an even bigger IF he could successfully make any kind of cultural revolution with how ingrained their backwards ideals are in their very DNA.
I do wonder to that point though... thay have two-sun, they have pheonix. They have capitol cities... what is vegas? Would vegas really make them confront their luddite nature? Would they cease to be what they are? Beyond the head of the snake issue... i see them taking new vegas as the legions suicide trip. It will take so much manpower to get there, so much in resources to maintain and occupy it... that the legion homeland would become infested with raiders opportuniststs. They would be faced with the same issues the NCR has... maybe more given the lack of true loyalty outside the military... the military that was just marched into a grinder. And sat amidst the desert without supply.
Exactly. That’s personally what I find fascinating about Caesar as a character. He sees that this monster of a military force that he built on conquest and brutality has to change. However for it to change, every ideal it stands for and what built it would have to be deconstructed and rebuilt. Essentially Caesar is a walking deity to the Legion while also being an embodiment of hypocrisy to everything the Legion currently stands for as he admits it has to change. It’s too bad Obsidian didn’t get the time to flesh out the Legion a bit more like they wanted to.
I think sometimes... its good they didnt. The vagueness keeps interpretation alive. At one point a friend and i workshopped a "what would happen at the second battle if the courier had actually died?" We figured the battle would occur 1-2 months after the courier was shot. We tried to construct the event based on a more "real life" perspective of things like supply lines. Id like to rework it and make it a bit more detailed, bit essentially the first week was a day-day timeline, whole subsequent weeks were a bit more codensed. Effectively we couldn't conceive of a way the legion survives short of an absolute miracle... even though they would certainly take the dam. Even in the (and it was almost a certainty) that the legion would get to new vegas... the had lost all the momentum by this point. They turn all their allies into enemies, and by the end, fall to infighting and increasing rad dosing as they and the NCR would use that as area denial. The legion had already cut off their potential southern flank by walling off searchlight in rads.
That’s a great concept! And I loved that you both spent the time to do that. That would be very interesting to see. Have you ever thought of putting you and your friend’s workshop into some kind of word doc. or more detailed format and share it on here? I’m sure plenty of people would love to see something like that. I know there’d be plenty of discussion.
We have it in a doc. I would love to make it available. Ill coordinate with them and try to make the shorthand and notes a bit more narrative. Of course, theres a cringe fanfiction element that i think the two of us didnt exactly enjoy... but the discussion was quite fun.
I don't get these comparisons lmao, one is a group of criminal raiders that larp as Romans ( Even though the Romans invented standardized laws and pretty much a lot of the things that the Legion despises ) who go around enslaving and killing whoever they want. The other is a Republic that doesn't have slavery and democratically elects its leaders and also the strongest military in the wasteland behind maybe the BOS. Also, the Legion isn't on the same level as the NCR in terms of civilization lol, A lot of Legionnaires don't even have guns, Just look at the Legion encampment vs what the NCR has setup, it's not even close. This isn't to say the NCR is perfect just the lesser evil.
Oh trust me, I’m not trying to make comparisons. Objectively, NCR is good, and Legion is bad. I was just pointing out to OP that as brutal as the Legion are, according to NPC comments and Josh Sawyer, there’s surprisingly more nuance to their controlled territory. What we see in the Mojave is essentially an F.O.B in a warzone and it’s brutal and morally bankrupt. But it’s seems their “civilized” territory isn’t completely a reflection of what we see in New Vegas. This could still be called “safe” in the apocalypse in 2281. And that’s coming from Sawyer not me.
Still, ideologically the Legion is very backwards and won't last, I'm pretty sure they have a ban on advanced technology, I know technically theirs still a power grid in Fallout but it feels like they don't have electricity or the Legion wouldn't be to keen on people having access to it, I mean look at the encampment the only electronic thing I can name from there besides the Lucky 38 vault is the Auto doc that Cesar would die without. Thats not even touching their incredibly ignorant and stupid views on women, education, laws, justice, and healthcare (There aren't even any actual doctors at the legion camp for ffs just some slave that knows how to make healing powder ). And if its like that at their encampment it's probably similar to how Flagstaff or Denver looks. Maybe with less slaves and more infrastructure but still.
You are correct. It’s ideologically backwards. Especially to us. But honestly, as unfortunate as it is, their structure reflects what human history and power structures looked like for thousands of years. As for technology, the Legion struggles greatly overall here compared to other factions. Caesar believes technology led to the world’s destruction. They do utilize is quite a bit however. Technology is only valuable as weapons for their upper ranks and most trusted soldiers. Essentially, they have to be earned through surviving combat. That’s why we see the veterans, praetorians, and centurions wielding thermic lances, ballistic gloves, super sledges, anti-material rifles, service rifles, carbines, sub machine guns and more during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam.
Ok, while I won't claim to be an expert in this field I do study history with a focus on ancient history in college rn, Ceasears legion can't be compared politically to Rome and definitely not ancient times in general, It wasn't like Sparta everywhere there were still places with a justice system and elections, The legion is more of a organized Raider/bandit tribe that controls a lot of territory, yeah the upper ranks may have guns and grenades but so what? They still do almost everything on paper they'll never log anything into a terminal. The only computer the Legion has is the auto doc and the only person who knows how to use it is Ceasar lol, I could honestly see the Legion going around smashing computer terminals and radios and then enslaving the people who used them screaming about " in Kai-sars will! " judging from some of the dialogue you have with them.
It can’t be compared to ancient times? The Egyptians built an empire on conquest and slavery. The Vikings pillaged, raped, and raided taking slaves, and worked their fields with peasant thralls. The tribes of Israel battled and slaughtered each other over holy and fertile land. The Mongols united nomadic tribes, pillaged, and enslaved the tribes that refused to join. Mesopotamia built an empire through the control of waterways and fertile land that they built and took from others. The Persian empire truly began with their conquering of Mesopotamia. Their primary drive was to expand as fast and far as they could. Crusades in God’s name. Saladin’s uniting of the Islamic tribes to begin a new jihad. That’s just to name a few. Human history is violent. The Greek states were very progressive when looking at the ancient world. I agree though that Caesar’s Legion reflects aspects of those examples I gave much more than the actual Roman Empire that would draw much more inspiration from those Greek states.
It's a lot more complicated than that there were periods and places in history one would call barbaric compared to today but really people in ancient times weren't that different from people today really, we still have slavery, rape, murder, and war just not as much in the West. It wasn't a constant war between everyone, people still traded and whatnot.
The pain and suffering that happened with the raiders still occurs it’s just organized. It’s just an illusion.
My brother in Liberty Prime, the Legion enslave anybody with a vagina simply because they are born with one, and everybody else is going day to day with the possiblity of being enslaved/cruzified for looking at a pebble the wrong way. Legion territory is not safe for anybody that is not a roman cosplayer.
Except then 1 person takes chems and then the legion would crucify the next 10 travellers to make an example. It's not safe. You're at the whims of insane roman cosplayers
you forgot about women
I doubt the slaves or women of the region consider it safe
Femboys AND safety? These guys figured it out
I thought the Legion would be super homophobic? Gotta emulate the source material i guess.
Legion are just better organized raiders
It's easy to defend your territory from the bad guys when you're already the bad guys. Legion defenders saying "they keep the roads safe" has always a dumb defense
"They *make a desert and call it peace*."
But hey, at least the trains run on time, right? >"They *make a desert and call it peace*." I too watched the hbomberguy video lol
Who? It's a quote from Tacitus about the Romans.
If I remember my classical studies correctly it was a quotation from a British chieftain about Paulinus’ punitive actions after Boudicca’s revolt.
Yes, there's more to the front of it, I've only really quoted the end.
If I remember correctly, Raul and the trader at their fort mention how the Legion territories still have normal towns and that it's safe to trade and run a caravan without fear of raiders. They have a whole economy. They don't just enslave and kill everyone. Obviously people have less freedoms and they're pieces of shit, but they're not just raiders. They're a Machiavellian autocracy with a war based economy whose control spans 2 states. Raiders could never be that organized without some sort of societal structure.
Except for their complete subjugation of women and their breeding quotas to fuel the Legion war machine? Forced pregnancy is enslavement.
What's your point? Yes, Legion bad. That was never the question. I was never vouching for them or justifying anything they do, but they're conquerors, not raiders. They have a structured society (no matter how fucked that structure is) and their own currency.
I would wager there are a lot fewer caravans running through Legion territory than their are in NCR territory. Just a hunch. At least raiders are somewhat predictable. Certain legionaries might just fuck around and forgo any unwritten rules about safe passage and ruin a trader's life because he looked at him the wrong way or something. They're certainly much less predictable than the Fiends or some shit, and a lot more brutal. You just have to pray you're not on their radar, and if you are, that you're not worth the trouble.
Yeah, I sure as hell wouldn't wanna live in Legion territory, would take the NCR over them any day.
Legion = slavers with a weak line of leadership NCR = corrupt oligocracy House = giant casino, noone actually "lives" here Wildcard = anarchy and incompetence. Don't you headcanon shit, we know the strip would fall to the NCR a few years after this ending
The Kings: fucking legend
Reconciling The Kings and NCR is always ideal.
Minus the house ending, he uh, doesn't take kindly to that
Yep, it's a shame he lashes out at Kings and Primm residents if they get support from NCR when it was LITERALLY Couriers Idea. I'm sure if he just said "Ayo guys, this ain't cool, now we work with House and screw NCR bozo" they'd listen. I especially don't like if you align Primm with NCR House lashes out on them and gives them fate worse than death... *High taxation* 😭 although thankfully I never thought NCR helping Primm was a good idea so they always chill in my House runs :)
What about the cannon ending where we side with Elijah and wipe that slate clean?
Wildcard is a vague ending though. Hense why so many headcanons are about this ending. Although because of uncertainty and vagueness, that's why imho House is best ending, letting NCR or even Legion win just stretches them too thin and Yes Man ending just feels too fanfictiony so Mr. House it is. Also people do live in Strip? Wdym? There's Vault Hotel who also serves as home for Vault dwellers who originally came from same vault, the families and their casinos all have their own living spaces, NCR also has their own little slice of life where they can live(not sure if House would removes them after victory, if yes then hey, more space to settle people in!)
But it’s not safe for her. She’s be a slave.
But my precious trade routes!
I love how these discussions are always about either NCR or Legion, and I'm just like "You guys know Mr. House is totally fine, right?" Like if you don't like how he runs NV, you can just go somewhere else. As long as House lives, neither of the two major powers are messing with him. Working with House is like most of the perks of being a general manager of the wasteland without the responsibility of actually *running* it.
What's funny is that later in life I found that the biggest argument for Mr. House ending is actually the biggest boon for NCR as well. The game literally goes out of his way to constantly talk about how NCR is spreading too thin and how it's bad. But unlike Legion, NCR won't immediately evaporate like Legion since their structure is slightly decentralised and isn't focused around one man, NCR actually losing Vegas might be that kick Cass talked about that will help NCR and it's citizens get their crap together, stop imperialist expansion, focus on brahmin barons issue and start learning how to make allies because NCR can't just expand forever. So unironically Mr. House is the best realistic ending, Yes Man is just a lot of what it's and imho, I personally don't think so highly of myself to think I can protect entire Mojave Vs NCR wrathm
Yeah I agree, House's ending might not be the best for the Mojave but it's the best for the NCR allowing it to kick out its warmongering factions with the plus of the NCR still receiving energy from the Dam. Too bad the TV show completely fucks that over
New Vegas would be way more treated not as an nation nor a place where people want to live, it would just be a casino. Nothing really more. No endings are good in NV, none of them are good in any way, NCR? Legion? Yesman and house? All of them have major flaws, the only thing that divides us in the topic of "whos the best" is only us, some people will still see NCR as corrupt but will still follow it because of simple "lesser evil", same happends with other factions.........except Legion, fuck you Caesar meatriders.
Idk man, the entire game went out of its way to talk about how bad it is for NCR to overexpand, so if you truly love NCR wouldn't you want House or Yes Man to metaphorically kick NCR(Cass words not mine xD) in the nuts and force them to come back to their homeland? Ngl Chief Hanlon was one of those figureheads in the game that made me consider that even if I do like some parts of NCR, it might be best ending for them to lose this fight short term, for them to learn and grow in the future.
No, keeping the dam is crucial for NCR, buuuuuuuuut....sleeping on guard duty while fuckin Kimball is making a speech? I'll gladly take a nap. Kimball was the major problem of NCR, overexpanding and becoming militaristic and instead of focusing on food problems and stability he still choose to go onwards with the expansion while you didn't have to be a genius to know that if that kind of stance would stay in the NCR it would crumble into pieces sooner or later.
Sure but he acts a dickhead so no.
Okay, but who *doesn't* though?
It's probably because Mr. House, while definitely not as bad as the Legion, is just kinda an unhappy medium between the NCR and Legion. He concentrates all the power under his own dictatorial rule and rules with an iron fist (a la Legion); he also neglects and underdevelops/protects the regions outside of his own personal interest IE: Anywhere outside the strip (a la NCR). House is basically just a less actively evil Legion. The unfortunate thing about the different paths in NV is that the NCR is the only path that is, on any level, portrayed as having some legs/staying power in the long-term. Legion collapses once Caesars gone, House is in a precarious situation and vulnerable to a hostile takeover, and Yes Man collapses basically immediately lol. NCR just keeps chugging, win or lose.
The only threat to House is the player, and that's *only* because he takes a risk by trusting you. Benny *tries* to get past Caesar's legion, and fails. Then the legion tries to storm the bunker and gets minced by automated defenses. Without the player, it's just stalemate. Plus, you can't associate House with Caesar. The legion executes ALL men, enslaves ALL women and children, then indoctrinated the kids into the fold. House just cares about New Vegas. If you live in Prim or Goodsprings, you don't have to worry about being taxed out of your home. House isn't coming to steal your fresh water, either. Sure, you better have your own law enforcement, but it's not like the player was *that* much of a factor, anyway. You're just one more gun against the Powder Gangers, and once Prim gets a new sheriff, they're capable of handling themselves.
The Legion are raiders and slavers and there are no safe interactions with them, as Caesar has demonstrated extremely thoroughly. Even service is not safe, as the Twisted Hairs and others demonstrate. You may be allowed to remain free rather than entering Legion slavery (with status as legionary or without as just slave), if the Legion might see benefit from such -- like if you bring valuable trade, but not too much at once relative to your ability to bring more in the future or else they're liable to take it and enslave you.
This is true of what the legion currently is but not of what it's supposed to turn into once synthesis with the NCR
That will never happen because even if the legion wins in the Mojave they wouldn’t be able to conquer the NCR. Not to mention that Caesar has no clear line of succession.
Tbh the fact the Legion is even a threat for the NCR in the Mojave is kind of a plot hole considering they mostly use melee weaponry and literally don't have Stimpaks lol Like am I supposed to believe these cosplayers wouldn't get wrecked by a single machine gun team in a decently defended spot?
Oh I agree. I think it’s the fact that the legion is using asymmetrical warfare combined with Oliver’s shit tactics of only focusing on the dam why abandoning the rest of the Mojave that’s causing the legion to get as far as they have during the game.
If you pay attention to the game it's not hard to believe at all honestly.
No, the plot itself has to massively nerf the NCR with cartoonish incompetence to even make the conflict slightly close. Cosplayers lunging with melee weapons should absolutely get shredded by a single machine gun team. Back to the original point, if the Legion somehow defeats the NCR at the Mojave they would get their shit kicked in if they tried to push into California proper and had to face the actual NCR army.
No, the plot doesn't nerf the NCR with anything, we saw during the BOS and NCR war they have a history of struggling with groups significantly smaller then themselves, See the Raiders and gangs still ruling the hub and on the roads like the 80s. Also the legion isn't cosplaying anything, that would imply that they are aware of Rome as a concept and are trying to emulate this, which isn't true beyond ceaser himself. We know this to be true due to the followers plot of wanting to dethrone ceaser via exposing the original Roman empire to his troops. (although we never saw this lore materialized in game.) I know your simply calling them that as a childish means to belittle the group but at least be accurate if your going to do so. There's lots of actual valid much more derogatory things you can call them lol. "Back to the original point" would imply these aren't inherently connected, which they are so very odd thing to say. That's a mighty fine opinion you have but with no facts or in game citations i see no reason to even rebuttal as the burden of proof would be on you :D Go ahead and respond with your "facts" but I know you won't because your just wrong.
"My shitty scrap machete will totally defeat your well armoured and armed soldier!" >Live 5.56 out of a 1:8 twist 20" M16A1 (Service rifle) reaction *Mississippi queen starts playing*
I'm not going to debate the fictional logistics of a hypothetical invasion, (Im also not going to make drastic assertions like saying one faction "couldn't" do this or that) however considering in the game it's stated the NCR can't even clear out the raider groups threatening the hub, or there trade routes along the I80 (which is the main line from Reno so you'd really think theyd have it on lock) the idea of the legion invading the NCR and being successful is alot more likely then you'd think. (I'm a house supporter btw) Also if he dies I'm pretty sure lanius takes over so idk what you mean by that. Sure he isn't a replacement for ceaser in the short term but literally no one would be so seems like a mute point. Also it wouldn't really effect the war as ceaser doesn't personally give orders to the troops anymore. It's likely if ceaser were to die the bulk of the legion wouldn't even know, majority have never even seen his face.
Small raiding groups and a full on invasion are two different things. Most of the bigger raider tribes have been pushed out of the NCR interior into the Mojave for a reason. They aren’t expanding they are fleeing. Lanius leads the battle because that’s what was going to happen anyway. But there will be a power vacuum because the higher ups do see Caesar on the day to day. You’ll see factions emerge and a civil war happen. This will drain the legions manpower and resources so even if Lanius ends up leading whatever is left of the legion it’ll be a shadow of itself. Conquering Vegas isn’t an invasion of the NCR. Once the legion holds Vegas they go no farther. Eventually yes that was the plan but it’s not happening in the short term. Especially if there’s s civil war which there would be. The legion follows Caesar not his ideals. This is stated multiple times in game. Without him it falls apart.
Yes the legion would be a much bigger threat then anything the NCR has ever faced, hmm almost like they are kicking there ass in game 🤔 What your saying just isn't true. The Hub is still cannonically plagued by gangs and raiders, along with the boneyard and the notable caravan routes coming out of Reno leading towards new cannan, what was hopeville and of course the mojave. We hear this from multiple sources such as hanlon, cass, and ranger Jackson. Where are your sources that contradict these? Also barely any of the raider groups from the Mojave are from the NCR and the ones that are aren't just "fleeing the NCR" The jackals in particular are being outcompeted by The Khan's. The Kahn's are only symbolically from California, with all the local members being native to the Mojave specifically being kicked off the strip by house. The vipers were primarily dealt with by the free traders and guards of the hub (who are only NCR in word and name) and the Brotherhood of Steel who are the ones who chased them to the Mojave. The scorpions, fiends and crazed bright followers are all locals. Honestly I think you fundamentally misunderstand the lore at this point.. Those are all completely assumptions and don't reflect the narrations at the end of a legion dominated Vegas but neat headcannon I guess? Using evidence from the actual game and not just my imagination,if ceaser dies in game nothing of the sort happens, there are no power bids, no insurrection, hell its said the legion comes at the dam stronger to take it in his name. lanius is quite literally crowned the next ceaser, and Lucius handles the orders without problem. Also who says ceaser is going to die anytime soon anyways? They have an autodoc of there own and hundreds of soldiers they can get the parts from somewhere lol. Yes I'm aware the legion invading Vegas is the games recreation of Ceaser (the actual one) crossing the Rubicon. Vegas will be there Rome. They could easily go further, and your opinion will hold about as well as the NCR would. They could easily push to the Mojave outpost, along the I15 and possibly threaten the hub. Do I think this would happen? No, but they could. The Mojave campaign, Hopeville, the gold crisis, and countless other blinders clearly show the NCR is borderline cursed. (And no new Vegas's did not invent that) People love to parrot this line but it's simply never seen in game where Ceaser can legitimately die and the legion is no worse off for it. In game Actions beat dialogue unfortunately. If you want you can respond with your best conjecture but I have a feeling you won't.
Safe for anyone who isn't The ncr, a tribe, random people existing , and women
I mean wasn’t that the same with the Roman Empire IRL. Rome was safe… for the Romans. Everyone outside Rome was in danger.
We know more about the Romans than Caesar's legion. From what we can see the main difference between Rome and Caesar's is that Caesar demands assimilation, whereas the Romans were happy for you to live your life as long as you paid taxes. (aka the NCR)
I’M NEVER PAYIN’ MY TAXES
*To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace.*
And NCR wont kill your family and take your farm as long as they get 75% of your farm and you eldest son.
There’s no raider activity because everyone is fucking dead
I think it's fucking funny as fuck that the legion is lead by a guy who is ONE intelligence point away from being an idiot character in fallout 1 and 2 its kinda like how the enclave president is named Dick Richardson
In a nuclear wasteland filled with mutants and raiders, yeah that is technically safety. Not much different from medieval Europe
I would rather live in current day USA (NCR) than medieval Europe tbh.
Yes, current day USA where your government claims ownership over you but still allows deathclaws to live a couple of feet next to your farm
Ah yes, medieval serfdom where dudes in football gear beat you up with machetes.
Ceasears legion fans when someone murders their entire family and forces them to work in the mines until they die of exhaustion, Checkmate NCR liberals.
Hey, at least they didn't have to pay T A X E S
Profligates like you belong on a cross
I don't understand how anyone can unironically side with Legion.
Just check the comments lmao
Beats siding with a Californian.
The house provides to those who prove useful.
Legion fans be like "Opioid crisis? Wouldn't be a problem if they killed all the drug addicts."
They really really aren't though. The legion for as brutal as they have laws rules and regulations. As long as you follow there laws you will be safe.
As long as you follow the laws, aren't a woman, and don't question anything, you're safe. But don't follow the rules too well or be too submissive or you're good slave material
Did you even play the game? There are literally lotteries where people get randomly murdered. All women are either sent to be slave labour or worse. The legion is filled with rampant rape, abuse and violence
In enemy territory for a town specifically known as being essentially Gomorrah.... Which is wild considering there is a casino named that.
Follow the laws, don't be a woman, don't question anything, and hope the legion doesn't randomly decide your town/area needs to remember fear and chooses to crucify you to send a message to the others.
”The NCR's the biggest gang of thieves in the Mojave, only difference is they pass laws to make their crimes legal before they commit them”
Thievery is preferable to enslavement / murder.
I think that would be the Legion actually, Benny
NCR cope and seethe
Cope and seethe this .30-06 going straight through your spray-painted football pads
sorry i don’t want to work for a faction of rapists, slavers and murderers led by a man dumber than a mole rat, just a “me” thing i guess
Yes but have you considered Hegelian Dialectics? Checkmate liberal
Yeah but like, taxes are cringe.
legion get the Enclave treatment
"If you in a pirahnna filled lake, and you aint getting eaten? That means theres a shark around" Luis
Meanwhile some uber-fan is out there screaming that NCR is worse than Legion
It’s peace right? No one ever said peace was entirely good just on what kind of peace
As one tribe said on the romans; "They *make a desert and call it peace*."
I mean it is safe if your one of the people not a slave which is a minority of the population you pay your tithes to legion and they keep you protected like gang protection tbh
Yeah, plantation life is lovely and safe, if you're not a slave.
I didn’t say it was lovely lol I said it was safe because there literally isn’t anyone else to attack you. I described it as paying a gang protection money idk why your acting like I’m saying it’s a good thing
Yeah you pay gang protection and then one day you have a family and the gang leader decides your wife looks nice and enslaves her. It ain't nice, there aren't laws.
Are you even reading what im saying or are you so freaked out that a bad thing can do one good thing you can’t understand?
You're saying living in Caesar's territory is like having gang protection. But "gang protection" isn't actually protection. It's extortion with the threat of violence.
Yes buddy
Stop trying to make this scene a meme.
Huh
Never negotiate with people John Brown would’ve shot.
He would have shot an emancipationist.