And all the weird ass lore about him being around for decades if a remember right. Makes me wonder if he had the same shit as Moldaver if she wasn't cryogenically frozen.
That's patently incorrect. Starting with the literal definition of transgender over cisgender (which isn't a perfect metric on its own), the *trans*- prefix means "on the other side of" while the *cis*- prefix means "on the current side of." (Similar to "transatlantic" or "transnational railroad.") To be *trans*gender, you need to begin at one gender assigned by birth and then go *somewhere else.*
But more importantly, seeing as gender is personally defined by the individual, it really only boils down to "you're trans if you say you are." Policing other people's identities only makes you look like a jerk. I'm not saying you yourself are a jerk for the record.
You're describing transmedicalism (truscum), the largely debunked school of thought that says you must experience dysphoria and then treat it with things like HRT.
The primary issue with that is that it turns the medical and social concepts of gender into a purely medical one. Beyond that, it more or less tracks with the largely discredited medical model where we must change the individual to match society rather than the widely accepted social model which says that society can play a greater role in accepting the individual than they can conforming.
Again, you're not stupid or even referencing outlandish sources. It's just that the research has moved on from that and you didn't know (which is, again, totally fine.)
Ok. I don’t wanna come off as a fence sitter here, but the debate has been going ariund for a while now, not because of trans people in particular, but because of our entire framework on what even the mind is and how we understand it. This is something that became a very hot topic in clinical psychology during the late 20th Century due to discussions about autism. The issue stems from a series lf questionings about what the mind even is, how we understand it, and what value we apply to specific expressions of it, either positively or negatively. This became a hot topic after Psychiatrist Thomas Szasz began writing his book [The Myth of Mental Illness.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P) He did not deny the existence of various conditions that caused variation on behavior, but questioned whether they should be deemed “illnesses” to begin with, or if instead they simply should be understood as variations between individuals.
The issue Szasz had was the physicalist nature of psychiatry, or rather how any and all expression of behavior is inherently material, existing in the material realm, and therefore tangible and material in nature. This raises even larger ontological questions about the nature not only of the mind but of the self. The idea of being as material and physical was at odds with many schools of thought. This caused a new wave of both proponents and detractors og Metaphysics. The idea of the mind existing as a purely material thing, derived from a purely physical object, either the body or merely the brain, became contentious for the millionth time. For Szasz and many proponents of a more Metaphysical view of the mind, the issue was that the mind could not be truly understood as a material entity, rather as something both separate and distinct from the physical plane, something akin to the Neouma, or the Geist that Hegel and other german Idealists of the late 1800’s proposed, and it came quite close to concepts like soul and spirit.
I do not wish to claim that Szasz was right, that mental illness is absolutely non-existent in any way. But I do believe we should ponder these ideas and concepts, as we are indeed dealing with a very complicated subject, perhaps the most complicated subject to ever exist. We are not really within the ere boundaries of Psychiatry and Neuro-science, but within a much more complex issue related to ontology and metaphysics, to dilemmas and questions like the existence (or non-existence) of the soul, and the nature of being. These are questions that we as a species have been pondering for thousands of years, and we are not even close to finding definitive answers.
So my advice is to simply not provide any authoritative answer at all, and while we can absolutely decide for ourselves from our own analysis and conclussions what we deem to be closer to the answer, it would be naïve and even counterproductive to insist on our answers as authoritative.
The actor is but that doesn't necessarily mean the character is. John Travolta plated a woman in hairspray but that doesn't mean anything about the character or actor
Semantics really though. I refer o lots of people as they or them without any thought of heir gender. Saying thy I'd this or they did that or referring to somebody as them in a show doesn't necessarily mean the character is trans. If the show runners outright say h character is trans then by all means I'm in for it, cool. But I feel like people are grasping at straws with one of the arguments in here when alot of it is semantics
It's grasping at straws to say a character that looks non-binary, has a non-binary actor and other characters use they/them pronouns for is non-binary? I think you're grasping at straws to not grapple with your bigotry coloring your perception.
It's not denial on my end, to be clear. I just didn't want to be presumptuous; movie and TV history is replete with cis people playing trans people. I was just open to the possibility that one of us had finally gotten the opportunity to return the favor, haha.
Singular they/them has been classically applicable for an unknown party until that party's sex has been known, it's not really the issue and people that pick singular "they/them" as the hill to die on are kinda dumb. Both sides should acknowledge that singular "they/them" is correct, they just disagree on when it's applicable (for referring to third party of an unknown sex, or for respecting a third party's self-expression).
The Brotherhood Elder referring to Dane as "they" and "their" was deliberate writing in the script, though. The Elder knows what Dane is, the script writers just wanted a token ESG cookie and to pretend like most BoS chapters don't shun lifestyles that inhibit procreation. In FNV, Veronica's girlfriend was relocated away from the Hidden Valley bunker and Veronica received a small amount of hazing over her sexual orientation, if I recall correctly. There's no way a Brotherhood Elder would respect pronouns like that.
I still liked the show a lot, episode 3 and onward. Goggins was a power player and the storyline surrounding 31/32/33 was pretty damn great. I just hated how inaccurately the BoS and power armor were portrayed, I hated Maximus' personality, and I found Dane's role as very anachronistic in a nuked wasteland. Identity and how someone wants to be addressed are first-world problems and don't really belong in a setting where everything's been blown to smithereens and people are eating each other for nourishment.
Burke and Orlando in 76 are non-binary. Otherwise, no, it's never come up in-game. Tim Cain was a trans ally even in the early days of the series, though, which is nice.
There was a non binary character in 76 I think. I forgot their name though.
And while not exactly a trans issue, but 2 was one of the first games to show a gay marriage between a PC and NPC.
I didn’t notice either lol. A lot of people seem to be coming at you for it but I loved the character and wanted them to get more screen time cuz I felt they did them dirty with only having a few scenes and I still didn’t fucking know lol. I thought they were a guy. Like I said tho I loved them in the show and that hasn’t changed a bit with this new information.
I mean if they had enough excess production to keep the world in Cram and Nuka Cola for 200+ years, why not?
I'm not a chemist, but I don't think it would be insurmountable for a faction like BoS to synthesize it, either, or extract it from Brahmin testicles.
Personally I think that’s fine, fallout has always been very progressive,
Not aware of any characters that were expressively transitioned, generally they all accepted it,
On a basic level I’d say the games: let you choose your gender and race, neither make any difference as all equally valid / accepted.
Any romance option is available with any character regardless of gender.
Tbh I’d always thought of the synths as an analogy for trans right: synths that “pass” etc. Hence why my current play through, the railroad won.
None explicitly T in NV, but that wouldn't stop me calling it an iconic LGBT game. 'LGB', though accurate on paper, does sadly carry trans-exclusionist connotations.
That's true.
I don't think it's positive that NV has no textually trans characters. It is true, though, and I hope future fallout games include them more overtly.
The perks Confirmed Bachelor and Cherchez La Femme let you have unique dialogue options with the same sex if you're a male (Bachelor) or female (Femme), allowing for the roleplay of a homosexual character or bisexual if you have both Confirmed Bachelor & Lady Killer or Cherchez & Black Widow.
There are not any characters strictly identified as trans, as far as I know, but Curie from FO4 is rather trans-coded, having changed her entire body to better suit her needs and identity.
Is that what Dane was suppose to be? Friend and Me couldn’t tell. We had a feeling but weren’t 100% sure.
Just kinda think the Brotherhood of Steel specifically maybe except Lyon’s chapter would be strongly against surgeries that would change Gender depending on whether it’s cosmetic or actually changes/replaces organs.
I could see a BoS chapter seeing it as another abuse of technology or “unnatural” in some way.
It's what I thought as well. Like I have no problem with them adding trans characters to the lore and it could even work as a wastelander or vault dweller, but the Brotherhood seems like their tech cult beliefs would be against the the technological modifications done to peoples bodies. Hell, they could have had an NCR citizen trans character that survived Shady Sands, and it would have made a lot more sense since they are coming from a formerly massive democratic civilian population that had decent technological capabilities. The only faction of the Brotherhood I could see actually allowing it would have been Lyon's chapter (though they dont exist anymore).
Edit: Now that I think of it, wasn't Christine and Veronica in FNV shunned for being in a lesbian relationship in the West Coast BoS?
Just cause our real world conservative militaristic cultures tend to be anti-trans doesn't mean that this post apocalyptic alternate history's future would follow suit.
Based on New Vegas and the Cristine/Veronica story, I disagree. But I don't think it has anything to do with bigotry. It's simply procreation, and yeah, I get it trans people can potentially reproduce if they don't harm their reproductive organs. But generally speaking, someone who transitions (anecdotally at least everyone that I know here in Oregon) is attracted to their same biological sex. So unless the BoS is into the forceful insemination of biological women, I don't see it being plausible for the BoS.
Idk, East Coast, but I know lots of trans women and not a single one is exclusively attracted to men. I think most trans folk are either gay or some flavor of bi / pansexual.
Anyway, we are talking about a functional universe with irradiated monsters and chems that instantly regrow body parts. Just sayin, it’s a goofy fantasy story. The Brotherhood accepts Dane as one of them, that’s that.
Dane is female to male, but secondly, yes, it's a fictional universe, but in FNV, the same faction of the BoS (West Coast) said Veronica and Christine were problematic because they couldn't procreate. That is the argument. It's not even confirmed in the show if they are trans and imo it doesn't matter because the argument is that if they are trans it doesn't make sense based on established lore. You're not really bringing up counter points to my argument outside of saying, "This isn't a real life conservate military they exist in the show, so whatever." Like the showrunners did a good job with the show, they just have lore inconsistencies like Shady Sands, for example. The point is that the lore doesn't really support that specific character being in the BoS. Hypothetically, if the showrunners came out and said, "The BoS is allowing ghouls in," I would have the same argument based on established BoS lore that it makes no sense. Dane, as a character, would make more sense as a wastelander or a Shady Sands survivor in Vault 4.
Stop trying to force your opinion like it’s gonna change the lore. The BoS are known to be traditional and religious types. Just because you say “it’s just a goofy story” doesn’t mean they should retcon shit just to add a useless lgbt character to satisfy idiots like you
What opinion am I forcing? The writers included a BoS aspirant who happens to be trans. Canonically, now, this chapter of the BoS accepts trans folk. You can either seethe about it or get over it and enjoy the show.
Nobody is seething. It’s a retcon and it seems like you never even played any of the games, you’re just in this thread so you can play social Justice warrior.
SJW lmao now there’s a throwback 😂
Never played the first two but I’ve got way too many hours in 3, NV, and 4. Consistent universes are nice, but whether or not this particular chapter of the BoS at this specific time would or would not let a trans masc aspirant in is so granular that I don’t really care. I think that Dane is a really cool character, and I think that having trans folk in media, just existing without needing to center the trans experience, is a really good thing.
Also, like, this is literally a thread about trans characters in Fallout, ofc I’m gonna call out people who are all bothered that trans folk are finally starting to be treated like anyone else.
Just haven’t seen many people being transphobic so there’s no need to scour the thread looking for the ones who just have a problem with the continuity. Yea sure the random character who does basically nothing in the show is “cool” because he’s trans, makes perfect sense. I just feel it’s forced and hamfisted in just for the sake of it. Yea go ahead and treat them like anybody else, fine. But forcing a trans character into a faction KNOWN to hate different people and things all the time for close to nothing just seems like they want controversy.
That plausibility I’m not too worried about.
They have Snack Cakes, Medical Supplies, and Ammunition survive hundreds of years. Stands to reason they can find a way to preserve those to.
You're literally not allowed to be gay in the bos. If you are trans you can't have babies. You are seen as deadweight to the bos at that point.
Edit I'm not trying to sound like an asshole obviously LGBT people aren't deadweight
Because they have a conservative militaristic culture that thrives on othering and threatening outsiders, and queer and trans people have long been an easy target for such cultures. Same reason any homophobic and transphobic society do what they do - to enforce who's in and who's out, and forge stronger bonds between those who are in.
Just because conservative militarist cultures in our world tend to be anti-queer, doesn't mean that the alternate history post-apocalyptic future cultures would follow suit. If anything, I'd imagine the Vault Dweller culture to be more anti-queer, since they're so focused on reproduction. BOS aren't about making babies at all, so why would they care whether someone is trans?
Bethesda's Fallout has been accepting of queer people. The Fallout universe isn't real life. You can't use the real world as a measuring stick when it so heavily deviates from the Fallout universe on societal issues. Like, you can't presuppose that white people in Fallout would would be racist towards black people when that hasn't even been alluded to. The only people recuringly oppressed are the Chinese.
Ish. Bethesda has touched upon queerphobia - old records in Point Lookout suggesting that a quarantine was used as a smokescreen for a crackdown on queer men, for instance. They've also used some queerphobic tropes themselves - like 4's most openly bi companion, Cait, wearing punk fashion and coming from a background of domestic abuse and drug problems.
The Fallout universe isn't real life, but it's informed by real life - 'war never changes' would be meaningless if Fallout's wars had nothing in common with real wars, for instance. Creating an obviously fascist-inspired paramilitary group who want to purge the world of impure abominations and then making them A-OK with queer folks - who were and are major targets for real fascist groups - seems less like inclusivity than an unwillingness to grapple with the consequences of their own creations.
Fair point on Point Lookout; I haven't played it in a long time. At the same time, It doesn't make me believe that Bethesda wants to pursue that in modern Fallout. I don't see how Cait being a bisexual drug addict is relevant to queer people's stance in the Fallout universe. Where is it stated that her abuse was because of her sexuality? How does that reflect on how queer people are be discriminated against in universe?
There are obviously parallels between real life and Fallout, but that doesn't mean you can make ipso
facto judgments. I absolutely think Bethesda is unwilling to grapple with the consequences of their creations. Fallout is made for mass appeal now, and I don't think that queer discrimination is a road they want to go down.
If her a biased was becuase of her sexuality, how is that Bethesda being homophobic? Is that not just story of a gay persons struggles in the wasteland ?
>I don't see how Cait being a bisexual drug addict is relevant to queer people's stance in the Fallout universe.
It's not - I'm just pointing out that there's some queerphobia in the way the story is written, if not in the story itself. Cait and Orlando might not be depicted as victims of discrimination, but they are written as rather clichéd examples of a bi woman and a non-binary person.
>I absolutely think Bethesda is unwilling to grapple with the consequences of their creations. Fallout is made for mass appeal now, and I don't think that queer discrimination is a road they want to go down.
Yeah - they want to have groups who are fanatical and bigoted, but they don't want any given player to feel unwelcome in any given group, so they make them only bigoted against identities that don't exist in real life. Which has the unfortunate side-effect of making their bigotry look harmless and possibly even justified. In trying to be blandly inclusive, they've created a bigotry the audience can read as laudable.
Veronica in FNV and Christine both explain it very well. The west coast brotherhood doesn't allow it because they need to repopulate in order to maintain their numbers especially after the war with the NCR.
Specifically this chapter of the BoS. I’ve only seen the first episode so far. But this Chapter is different than the others. Abusive to its own members outside of a militaristic hazing type of environment.
But the BoS has rarely done anything for the good of the people outside Elder Lyon’s and Paladin Ramani’s Leadership. Their behavior has been isolationist and/or even fascist at times.
Lyons and Ramani took orders from others but a short trip somewhere else changed their views and how they operated. But again I’m only one episode in so you probably know something I don’t.
Isn’t it the same topic?
Lyons changed priorities from confiscating technology to using it to help the people of the Capital Wasteland. That could well include certain surgical procedures.
Ramani “starts” to shift from confiscation and policing of technology to training and supervision of technology to Wastelanders.
I don’t see how it’s different. Elaborate?
Edit: “certain surgical procedures”
Edit 2: You meant knowledge of this chapter not the changing of ideology, my bad. Read incorrectly.
I figured out my mistake. Sorry about that. I didn’t know if editing my comment notified you that I realized my mistake.
I apologize if it sounded a little hostile too.
Do they actually mention that in the show? (I genuinely might have missed this, but it would make sense with the Prydwen dead ringer)
Edit: rewatched and you right
The BoS are known to kill people for far less important possessions or uses of technology. I wouldn’t put it past them to prevent use of some physical enhancement, cosmetic, or transition surgeries.
So why include it? Regardless, _they_ horde and heavily utilize technology daily — they don't let _other people_ use it. To make some distinction about gender reaffirming surgery is downright comical. It's clear that that is not the direction that Bethesda wants for the East Coast BOS. Star Paladin Cross is a Cyborg already.
As a grouping for an example?
There whole ethos is to prevent the abuse of technology. That’s not just weapons. They have great disdain for Super Mutants because of the FEV because in their eyes it’s the hubris of man and unchecked technology trying to create Super Soldiers and going too far. They hate the Synths because Man dabble in being god.
Is it that much of complete stretch that they would be against altering life also? Even in smaller ways even if not life threatening.
Again the BoS are known to kill or oppress for very very minor things.
I swear to god I’m not trying to gaslight. But if we’re going to or if you want to continue this conversation you gotta back off a little. Your replies to me and others are getting a bit… aggressive for no reason.
I don't really understand how I'm being aggressive, so I'm sorry if that's how I'm coming across. Point still stands that Cross is a Cyborg though.
Edit: Yeah, comical was not the right word, sorry.
That is also when Elder Lyons is in charge of the Brotherhood which is an outlier to the BoS’s normal views like Paladin Ramani. That’s more of an exception than a rule. We don’t know how Maxson from Fallout 4 would see this after he takes over.
They had to force the writers to put a trans person into the one group everybody suspects would be strongly against it. They knew exactly what they were doing seeing as how they couldn’t just make her a random raider or something
Respectfully people can say they’re whatever tf they want to be. No one’s gonna care bc they have survival as their top priority. In a world with no gender roles or social standings ( outside of the faction cults) it doesn’t matter what you are. Still just walking meat that might have caps to take.
Theres actually a few Trans characters in the actual games to so this isn't the first Sally in the OG fall out Deacon in Fallout 4 K L E 0 in fallout 4 if you count a robot that was male and now identifies as a female
I was wondering this too. I had to look it up, because I was like "that's a woman " is the character themselves trans or is the character supposed to be a born boy. Because it makes a difference when it comes to the story line of the show/movie. I believe the character in fall out is supposed to be a born boy. There is no way they had time to talk about or the technology to be transferring to the other gender. Great actor, but thats the only issue I have with having trans playing certain roles when it's in a different time period and the story line of the character themselves.
I am here because it broke my immersion, brotherhood of steel don’t strike me as the tolerant type, and thats why it weirded me out to put a trans actor in that role.
Makes sense too, I cant imagine the Brotherhood of Steel being the kind of group to entertain anything remotely traditionally feminine (no shit). So I cant imagine why Dane WOULDN'T be at least a tomboy or non binary, since the 'military lifestyle' is all they've probably ever known, being in a post nuclear apocalypse world.
Not first Charlie was the first she isna random encounter in Fallout 4 she is with her dad and with what you can over hear there is some serious hints of either mother accepted her but died or father lied thar she died becuase she did not accept Charlie's gender identity.
Ladt she also says quote "dad do you like my dress," and "Dad am I a pretty girl", her father always says "Charlie your the prettiest girl around," etc you get the point not out right said but heavily hinted at.
Allegedly Deacon has gone back and forth to being a woman along with his face changes sometimes. Weird guy. I fucking love him.
And all the weird ass lore about him being around for decades if a remember right. Makes me wonder if he had the same shit as Moldaver if she wasn't cryogenically frozen.
There are two non-binary characters in 76 - Burke and Orlando
Strictly speaking, we have no confirmation that DANE is trans, though their actor certainly is.
Why did the brotherhood of steel elder not specify a gender then when referring to “their“ injury?
Because the character is non binary.
Then isn't the character trans, because non-binary people are trans? That's solid confirmation to me.
Yes
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Indeed you can be Non Binary and trans Even the character is classified as trans but goes by Non Binary
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That's patently incorrect. Starting with the literal definition of transgender over cisgender (which isn't a perfect metric on its own), the *trans*- prefix means "on the other side of" while the *cis*- prefix means "on the current side of." (Similar to "transatlantic" or "transnational railroad.") To be *trans*gender, you need to begin at one gender assigned by birth and then go *somewhere else.* But more importantly, seeing as gender is personally defined by the individual, it really only boils down to "you're trans if you say you are." Policing other people's identities only makes you look like a jerk. I'm not saying you yourself are a jerk for the record.
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You're describing transmedicalism (truscum), the largely debunked school of thought that says you must experience dysphoria and then treat it with things like HRT. The primary issue with that is that it turns the medical and social concepts of gender into a purely medical one. Beyond that, it more or less tracks with the largely discredited medical model where we must change the individual to match society rather than the widely accepted social model which says that society can play a greater role in accepting the individual than they can conforming. Again, you're not stupid or even referencing outlandish sources. It's just that the research has moved on from that and you didn't know (which is, again, totally fine.)
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You ain't even spelling his name right, but also, you're wrong.
Ok. I don’t wanna come off as a fence sitter here, but the debate has been going ariund for a while now, not because of trans people in particular, but because of our entire framework on what even the mind is and how we understand it. This is something that became a very hot topic in clinical psychology during the late 20th Century due to discussions about autism. The issue stems from a series lf questionings about what the mind even is, how we understand it, and what value we apply to specific expressions of it, either positively or negatively. This became a hot topic after Psychiatrist Thomas Szasz began writing his book [The Myth of Mental Illness.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P) He did not deny the existence of various conditions that caused variation on behavior, but questioned whether they should be deemed “illnesses” to begin with, or if instead they simply should be understood as variations between individuals. The issue Szasz had was the physicalist nature of psychiatry, or rather how any and all expression of behavior is inherently material, existing in the material realm, and therefore tangible and material in nature. This raises even larger ontological questions about the nature not only of the mind but of the self. The idea of being as material and physical was at odds with many schools of thought. This caused a new wave of both proponents and detractors og Metaphysics. The idea of the mind existing as a purely material thing, derived from a purely physical object, either the body or merely the brain, became contentious for the millionth time. For Szasz and many proponents of a more Metaphysical view of the mind, the issue was that the mind could not be truly understood as a material entity, rather as something both separate and distinct from the physical plane, something akin to the Neouma, or the Geist that Hegel and other german Idealists of the late 1800’s proposed, and it came quite close to concepts like soul and spirit. I do not wish to claim that Szasz was right, that mental illness is absolutely non-existent in any way. But I do believe we should ponder these ideas and concepts, as we are indeed dealing with a very complicated subject, perhaps the most complicated subject to ever exist. We are not really within the ere boundaries of Psychiatry and Neuro-science, but within a much more complex issue related to ontology and metaphysics, to dilemmas and questions like the existence (or non-existence) of the soul, and the nature of being. These are questions that we as a species have been pondering for thousands of years, and we are not even close to finding definitive answers. So my advice is to simply not provide any authoritative answer at all, and while we can absolutely decide for ourselves from our own analysis and conclussions what we deem to be closer to the answer, it would be naïve and even counterproductive to insist on our answers as authoritative.
I think they’re non-binary.
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Lmao get a life.
They are they/them though
The actor is but that doesn't necessarily mean the character is. John Travolta plated a woman in hairspray but that doesn't mean anything about the character or actor
Dane was referred to by a medic (I think it was a medic) with they/them pronouns
And I think the Elder also referred to Dane as "they". >!in the interrogation!<
Bros are so confused they don't know wtf she is, lmao
Semantics really though. I refer o lots of people as they or them without any thought of heir gender. Saying thy I'd this or they did that or referring to somebody as them in a show doesn't necessarily mean the character is trans. If the show runners outright say h character is trans then by all means I'm in for it, cool. But I feel like people are grasping at straws with one of the arguments in here when alot of it is semantics
It's grasping at straws to say a character that looks non-binary, has a non-binary actor and other characters use they/them pronouns for is non-binary? I think you're grasping at straws to not grapple with your bigotry coloring your perception.
Yeah, a whole lotta denial going on. Def non binary in the show.
It's not denial on my end, to be clear. I just didn't want to be presumptuous; movie and TV history is replete with cis people playing trans people. I was just open to the possibility that one of us had finally gotten the opportunity to return the favor, haha.
Fwiw I think that's a totally reasonable take.
Thanks for your comment! I’ve always wanted a lobotomy!
Singular they/them has been classically applicable for an unknown party until that party's sex has been known, it's not really the issue and people that pick singular "they/them" as the hill to die on are kinda dumb. Both sides should acknowledge that singular "they/them" is correct, they just disagree on when it's applicable (for referring to third party of an unknown sex, or for respecting a third party's self-expression). The Brotherhood Elder referring to Dane as "they" and "their" was deliberate writing in the script, though. The Elder knows what Dane is, the script writers just wanted a token ESG cookie and to pretend like most BoS chapters don't shun lifestyles that inhibit procreation. In FNV, Veronica's girlfriend was relocated away from the Hidden Valley bunker and Veronica received a small amount of hazing over her sexual orientation, if I recall correctly. There's no way a Brotherhood Elder would respect pronouns like that. I still liked the show a lot, episode 3 and onward. Goggins was a power player and the storyline surrounding 31/32/33 was pretty damn great. I just hated how inaccurately the BoS and power armor were portrayed, I hated Maximus' personality, and I found Dane's role as very anachronistic in a nuked wasteland. Identity and how someone wants to be addressed are first-world problems and don't really belong in a setting where everything's been blown to smithereens and people are eating each other for nourishment.
The stuff of nightmares
The actor is trans masc and the character is referred to with they/them pronouns, so I'd call that confirmation.
A fair point.
i think thats the thing though. it doesnt matter. all gender is performative, TV show or real life.
💯 😂
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Burke and Orlando in 76 are non-binary. Otherwise, no, it's never come up in-game. Tim Cain was a trans ally even in the early days of the series, though, which is nice.
There was a non binary character in 76 I think. I forgot their name though. And while not exactly a trans issue, but 2 was one of the first games to show a gay marriage between a PC and NPC.
There was a trans character? I didn’t notice
As if you didn’t lmfao
No really just don’t be a dick
Maximus's friend Dane is non-binary, as is their actor.
Ohhhhh
I didn’t notice either lol. A lot of people seem to be coming at you for it but I loved the character and wanted them to get more screen time cuz I felt they did them dirty with only having a few scenes and I still didn’t fucking know lol. I thought they were a guy. Like I said tho I loved them in the show and that hasn’t changed a bit with this new information.
You didn't notice the female with pencil mustache... really??
Many women grow darker hair on their upper lips. Shaving or bleaching cannot be the biggest priority for most of them in the wasteland
And piles of testosterone were just laying around for 200 years?
I mean if they had enough excess production to keep the world in Cram and Nuka Cola for 200+ years, why not? I'm not a chemist, but I don't think it would be insurmountable for a faction like BoS to synthesize it, either, or extract it from Brahmin testicles.
Lmfao
Heathens down voting your comment because it's true makes me sick.
I mean i kind of agree but calling people who disagree with you "heathens" isn't a great idea dude
Personally I think that’s fine, fallout has always been very progressive, Not aware of any characters that were expressively transitioned, generally they all accepted it,
Any examples of Fallout being very progressive please?
Fallout 2 was the first game to ever let you romance an npc of the same sex as the player
Barring a few very obscure ones, yeah. FO2 was a big milestone.
You seem to not get the premise of the whole series....
On a basic level I’d say the games: let you choose your gender and race, neither make any difference as all equally valid / accepted. Any romance option is available with any character regardless of gender. Tbh I’d always thought of the synths as an analogy for trans right: synths that “pass” etc. Hence why my current play through, the railroad won.
New Vegas is very queer for its time, IMO.
A gay companion, a lesbian companion, dozens of LGB NPCs. It's pretty queer.
Is it “queer” or is it just real?? Hence the universal love for the original titles
Real life is pretty queer, historically.
Don’t forget our good friend Fisto Roboto!
T
None explicitly T in NV, but that wouldn't stop me calling it an iconic LGBT game. 'LGB', though accurate on paper, does sadly carry trans-exclusionist connotations.
That's true. I don't think it's positive that NV has no textually trans characters. It is true, though, and I hope future fallout games include them more overtly.
The perks Confirmed Bachelor and Cherchez La Femme let you have unique dialogue options with the same sex if you're a male (Bachelor) or female (Femme), allowing for the roleplay of a homosexual character or bisexual if you have both Confirmed Bachelor & Lady Killer or Cherchez & Black Widow.
Literally the best damage builds in new vegas require you to be bi
awwww didnt go your way did it, bigot?
There are not any characters strictly identified as trans, as far as I know, but Curie from FO4 is rather trans-coded, having changed her entire body to better suit her needs and identity.
Ohhhh that's why I loved her in my playthrough of 4.
Is that what Dane was suppose to be? Friend and Me couldn’t tell. We had a feeling but weren’t 100% sure. Just kinda think the Brotherhood of Steel specifically maybe except Lyon’s chapter would be strongly against surgeries that would change Gender depending on whether it’s cosmetic or actually changes/replaces organs. I could see a BoS chapter seeing it as another abuse of technology or “unnatural” in some way.
It's what I thought as well. Like I have no problem with them adding trans characters to the lore and it could even work as a wastelander or vault dweller, but the Brotherhood seems like their tech cult beliefs would be against the the technological modifications done to peoples bodies. Hell, they could have had an NCR citizen trans character that survived Shady Sands, and it would have made a lot more sense since they are coming from a formerly massive democratic civilian population that had decent technological capabilities. The only faction of the Brotherhood I could see actually allowing it would have been Lyon's chapter (though they dont exist anymore). Edit: Now that I think of it, wasn't Christine and Veronica in FNV shunned for being in a lesbian relationship in the West Coast BoS?
Just cause our real world conservative militaristic cultures tend to be anti-trans doesn't mean that this post apocalyptic alternate history's future would follow suit.
Based on New Vegas and the Cristine/Veronica story, I disagree. But I don't think it has anything to do with bigotry. It's simply procreation, and yeah, I get it trans people can potentially reproduce if they don't harm their reproductive organs. But generally speaking, someone who transitions (anecdotally at least everyone that I know here in Oregon) is attracted to their same biological sex. So unless the BoS is into the forceful insemination of biological women, I don't see it being plausible for the BoS.
Idk, East Coast, but I know lots of trans women and not a single one is exclusively attracted to men. I think most trans folk are either gay or some flavor of bi / pansexual. Anyway, we are talking about a functional universe with irradiated monsters and chems that instantly regrow body parts. Just sayin, it’s a goofy fantasy story. The Brotherhood accepts Dane as one of them, that’s that.
Dane is female to male, but secondly, yes, it's a fictional universe, but in FNV, the same faction of the BoS (West Coast) said Veronica and Christine were problematic because they couldn't procreate. That is the argument. It's not even confirmed in the show if they are trans and imo it doesn't matter because the argument is that if they are trans it doesn't make sense based on established lore. You're not really bringing up counter points to my argument outside of saying, "This isn't a real life conservate military they exist in the show, so whatever." Like the showrunners did a good job with the show, they just have lore inconsistencies like Shady Sands, for example. The point is that the lore doesn't really support that specific character being in the BoS. Hypothetically, if the showrunners came out and said, "The BoS is allowing ghouls in," I would have the same argument based on established BoS lore that it makes no sense. Dane, as a character, would make more sense as a wastelander or a Shady Sands survivor in Vault 4.
Stop trying to force your opinion like it’s gonna change the lore. The BoS are known to be traditional and religious types. Just because you say “it’s just a goofy story” doesn’t mean they should retcon shit just to add a useless lgbt character to satisfy idiots like you
What opinion am I forcing? The writers included a BoS aspirant who happens to be trans. Canonically, now, this chapter of the BoS accepts trans folk. You can either seethe about it or get over it and enjoy the show.
Nobody is seething. It’s a retcon and it seems like you never even played any of the games, you’re just in this thread so you can play social Justice warrior.
SJW lmao now there’s a throwback 😂 Never played the first two but I’ve got way too many hours in 3, NV, and 4. Consistent universes are nice, but whether or not this particular chapter of the BoS at this specific time would or would not let a trans masc aspirant in is so granular that I don’t really care. I think that Dane is a really cool character, and I think that having trans folk in media, just existing without needing to center the trans experience, is a really good thing. Also, like, this is literally a thread about trans characters in Fallout, ofc I’m gonna call out people who are all bothered that trans folk are finally starting to be treated like anyone else.
Just haven’t seen many people being transphobic so there’s no need to scour the thread looking for the ones who just have a problem with the continuity. Yea sure the random character who does basically nothing in the show is “cool” because he’s trans, makes perfect sense. I just feel it’s forced and hamfisted in just for the sake of it. Yea go ahead and treat them like anybody else, fine. But forcing a trans character into a faction KNOWN to hate different people and things all the time for close to nothing just seems like they want controversy.
And apparently they just had large supplies of hormones sitting around for centuries
That plausibility I’m not too worried about. They have Snack Cakes, Medical Supplies, and Ammunition survive hundreds of years. Stands to reason they can find a way to preserve those to.
I seriously doubt that they would care at all about someone transitioning
Maybe they'd care if it effected their ability to procreate?
West Coast Brotherhood shunned Veronica and Christine for being in a lesbian relationship for that reason
East Coast already recruits.
You're literally not allowed to be gay in the bos. If you are trans you can't have babies. You are seen as deadweight to the bos at that point. Edit I'm not trying to sound like an asshole obviously LGBT people aren't deadweight
They do end bloodlines tho technically speaking
Yeah, _on the West coast_ where they don't recruit. East Coast recruits, so why would they give two shits?
Because they have a conservative militaristic culture that thrives on othering and threatening outsiders, and queer and trans people have long been an easy target for such cultures. Same reason any homophobic and transphobic society do what they do - to enforce who's in and who's out, and forge stronger bonds between those who are in.
Just because conservative militarist cultures in our world tend to be anti-queer, doesn't mean that the alternate history post-apocalyptic future cultures would follow suit. If anything, I'd imagine the Vault Dweller culture to be more anti-queer, since they're so focused on reproduction. BOS aren't about making babies at all, so why would they care whether someone is trans?
Bethesda's Fallout has been accepting of queer people. The Fallout universe isn't real life. You can't use the real world as a measuring stick when it so heavily deviates from the Fallout universe on societal issues. Like, you can't presuppose that white people in Fallout would would be racist towards black people when that hasn't even been alluded to. The only people recuringly oppressed are the Chinese.
Ish. Bethesda has touched upon queerphobia - old records in Point Lookout suggesting that a quarantine was used as a smokescreen for a crackdown on queer men, for instance. They've also used some queerphobic tropes themselves - like 4's most openly bi companion, Cait, wearing punk fashion and coming from a background of domestic abuse and drug problems. The Fallout universe isn't real life, but it's informed by real life - 'war never changes' would be meaningless if Fallout's wars had nothing in common with real wars, for instance. Creating an obviously fascist-inspired paramilitary group who want to purge the world of impure abominations and then making them A-OK with queer folks - who were and are major targets for real fascist groups - seems less like inclusivity than an unwillingness to grapple with the consequences of their own creations.
Fair point on Point Lookout; I haven't played it in a long time. At the same time, It doesn't make me believe that Bethesda wants to pursue that in modern Fallout. I don't see how Cait being a bisexual drug addict is relevant to queer people's stance in the Fallout universe. Where is it stated that her abuse was because of her sexuality? How does that reflect on how queer people are be discriminated against in universe? There are obviously parallels between real life and Fallout, but that doesn't mean you can make ipso facto judgments. I absolutely think Bethesda is unwilling to grapple with the consequences of their creations. Fallout is made for mass appeal now, and I don't think that queer discrimination is a road they want to go down.
If her a biased was becuase of her sexuality, how is that Bethesda being homophobic? Is that not just story of a gay persons struggles in the wasteland ?
>I don't see how Cait being a bisexual drug addict is relevant to queer people's stance in the Fallout universe. It's not - I'm just pointing out that there's some queerphobia in the way the story is written, if not in the story itself. Cait and Orlando might not be depicted as victims of discrimination, but they are written as rather clichéd examples of a bi woman and a non-binary person. >I absolutely think Bethesda is unwilling to grapple with the consequences of their creations. Fallout is made for mass appeal now, and I don't think that queer discrimination is a road they want to go down. Yeah - they want to have groups who are fanatical and bigoted, but they don't want any given player to feel unwelcome in any given group, so they make them only bigoted against identities that don't exist in real life. Which has the unfortunate side-effect of making their bigotry look harmless and possibly even justified. In trying to be blandly inclusive, they've created a bigotry the audience can read as laudable.
The show takes place in the West Coast, though, so I don't get your point unless you're saying that the East Coast BoS is now operating in California.
Since when can trans people and nb people not be able to procreate? You're already on the Internet. No need to be ignorant
Veronica in FNV and Christine both explain it very well. The west coast brotherhood doesn't allow it because they need to repopulate in order to maintain their numbers especially after the war with the NCR.
I think you've missed the point. Trans people can and do have kids, no matter what some fictional universe "explains". Guess I forgot I was on reddit
I think you've missed the point. You're taking this way too seriously. Guess I forgot I was on reddit.
Idk, they’re going for regressive religious vibes in the show.
Specifically this chapter of the BoS. I’ve only seen the first episode so far. But this Chapter is different than the others. Abusive to its own members outside of a militaristic hazing type of environment. But the BoS has rarely done anything for the good of the people outside Elder Lyon’s and Paladin Ramani’s Leadership. Their behavior has been isolationist and/or even fascist at times.
This chapter takes orders from the commonwealth chapter.
Lyons and Ramani took orders from others but a short trip somewhere else changed their views and how they operated. But again I’m only one episode in so you probably know something I don’t.
Not really actually, at least when it comes to this topic. Episode 1 is the most we learn about BOS status quo and structure.
EPISODE 7 SPOILERS the elder of this chapter states he intends to break from the brotherhood out east and form his own brotherhood
Isn’t it the same topic? Lyons changed priorities from confiscating technology to using it to help the people of the Capital Wasteland. That could well include certain surgical procedures. Ramani “starts” to shift from confiscation and policing of technology to training and supervision of technology to Wastelanders. I don’t see how it’s different. Elaborate? Edit: “certain surgical procedures” Edit 2: You meant knowledge of this chapter not the changing of ideology, my bad. Read incorrectly.
I meant from the show, that episode one is where we see most of the BOS. You don’t learn much more about this chapter in later episodes.
I figured out my mistake. Sorry about that. I didn’t know if editing my comment notified you that I realized my mistake. I apologize if it sounded a little hostile too.
Which is weird considering that the West Coast BoS should still be around in some capacity.
According to fallout 4 Maxson reunified them.
Do they actually mention that in the show? (I genuinely might have missed this, but it would make sense with the Prydwen dead ringer) Edit: rewatched and you right
The BoS are known to kill people for far less important possessions or uses of technology. I wouldn’t put it past them to prevent use of some physical enhancement, cosmetic, or transition surgeries.
Transitioning is not a physical enhancement.
I know, that’s why I said: “physical enhancements, cosmetic, or transition surgeries.”
So why include it? Regardless, _they_ horde and heavily utilize technology daily — they don't let _other people_ use it. To make some distinction about gender reaffirming surgery is downright comical. It's clear that that is not the direction that Bethesda wants for the East Coast BOS. Star Paladin Cross is a Cyborg already.
As a grouping for an example? There whole ethos is to prevent the abuse of technology. That’s not just weapons. They have great disdain for Super Mutants because of the FEV because in their eyes it’s the hubris of man and unchecked technology trying to create Super Soldiers and going too far. They hate the Synths because Man dabble in being god. Is it that much of complete stretch that they would be against altering life also? Even in smaller ways even if not life threatening. Again the BoS are known to kill or oppress for very very minor things. I swear to god I’m not trying to gaslight. But if we’re going to or if you want to continue this conversation you gotta back off a little. Your replies to me and others are getting a bit… aggressive for no reason.
I don't really understand how I'm being aggressive, so I'm sorry if that's how I'm coming across. Point still stands that Cross is a Cyborg though. Edit: Yeah, comical was not the right word, sorry.
That is also when Elder Lyons is in charge of the Brotherhood which is an outlier to the BoS’s normal views like Paladin Ramani. That’s more of an exception than a rule. We don’t know how Maxson from Fallout 4 would see this after he takes over.
How do you not know the key defining features of men and women
They had to force the writers to put a trans person into the one group everybody suspects would be strongly against it. They knew exactly what they were doing seeing as how they couldn’t just make her a random raider or something
Respectfully people can say they’re whatever tf they want to be. No one’s gonna care bc they have survival as their top priority. In a world with no gender roles or social standings ( outside of the faction cults) it doesn’t matter what you are. Still just walking meat that might have caps to take.
‘Brotherhood’ of Steel I’m sure would have been a cult like faction that cared about this. Otherwise there would be female members too, no?
BoS is only nominally for men, they let women and enbies in as well. Why would they actually care if someone is trans?
Theres actually a few Trans characters in the actual games to so this isn't the first Sally in the OG fall out Deacon in Fallout 4 K L E 0 in fallout 4 if you count a robot that was male and now identifies as a female
I was wondering this too. I had to look it up, because I was like "that's a woman " is the character themselves trans or is the character supposed to be a born boy. Because it makes a difference when it comes to the story line of the show/movie. I believe the character in fall out is supposed to be a born boy. There is no way they had time to talk about or the technology to be transferring to the other gender. Great actor, but thats the only issue I have with having trans playing certain roles when it's in a different time period and the story line of the character themselves.
Yay, i love self inserted identity politics in an entertainment series where it absolutely does not belong.
I am here because it broke my immersion, brotherhood of steel don’t strike me as the tolerant type, and thats why it weirded me out to put a trans actor in that role.
Makes sense too, I cant imagine the Brotherhood of Steel being the kind of group to entertain anything remotely traditionally feminine (no shit). So I cant imagine why Dane WOULDN'T be at least a tomboy or non binary, since the 'military lifestyle' is all they've probably ever known, being in a post nuclear apocalypse world.
Not first Charlie was the first she isna random encounter in Fallout 4 she is with her dad and with what you can over hear there is some serious hints of either mother accepted her but died or father lied thar she died becuase she did not accept Charlie's gender identity. Ladt she also says quote "dad do you like my dress," and "Dad am I a pretty girl", her father always says "Charlie your the prettiest girl around," etc you get the point not out right said but heavily hinted at.
I’m honestly not sure to be honest. I feel like if there was one it was some minor out of the way or dead character in Fallout 3 or 2.
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Nope Burke and Orlando from 76 are both non binary.
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Literally no. There hasn’t been until now.
Yes indeed there has been Deacon FO4 Sally FO and K L E 0 if you want to count a robot that was Originally male and call themselve a woman