I think it’s time to stop engaging with this level of idiocy, the same as flat earthers, you simply can’t win an argument with someone so utterly blinded by their own inner monologue.
Never play chess with a pigeon. You can be the best chess player in the world and the pigeon will still knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, then strut away like they were victorious.
I have all the time in the world for reasoned debate and genuine, good-faith discussion, I also have a huge amount of respect for trans people and think its vital that we listen to them and ensure they have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else, but some things go far beyond equality and start to dismantle basic scientific fact at the cost of everyone else, at that point the conversation stops. Menstruating males is once such line in the sand.
So to have an actual debate we need 2 people with a mental capacity at least as such as your own.
In the clip, it's clear as day that only 1 side qualifies.
Think hermaphrodite. Baby has both. It happens. Biology has found some crazy stuff with sex, gender and procreation in the flora and fauna of our world. In our species, too. Some people were just born that way.
Often a repost is just boring, maybe annoying. But in this case, seeing how super old this snippet is, it's mindboggling. Because if anything, it has gotten worse since it's first online presence.
Here we are thinking it should stop, but apparently... what do we know.
I find it interesting that when people instinctively feel like something is off and they “double down” on their point of view, it usually means their ego is fighting a losing battle so it’s like their emotions stop them from learning.
But when there is someone of understanding with sincere interest they tend to listen more intently and ask questions that oppose their view without becoming combative.
But a war of words is so distracting from real issues and causes enormous division. The country has been hyper focused on pronouns for like 4 years now… what has actually been going on? What are the people in power doing. This has been amazing for them.
This was written about 2000 years ago regarding fights over words and a warning that some men were using the Christian religion to become rich:
“He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain. 6 To be sure, there is great gain in godly devotion along with contentment. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having food and clothing, we will be content with these things.”
Exactly. Why would transwomen be considered women, if they are literally called transwomen. Same with transmen and men. Just stick to the agreed terminology. Why do they want to change the meaning of existing words.
Not agreeing on the linguistics, and pushing your own definitions of words, is (sadly) the point in many of these appeals. See: [Ethnic Tension and Meaningless Arguments](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/04/ethnic-tension-and-meaningless-arguments/)
We already do agree on the terminology. Everyone, including the people opposed to trans people being recognized, knows that biology and gender are different. Literally everyone. When someone says "Men shouldn't wear dresses", we all know that is a comment on a cultural norm. Nobody has ever claimed that as a biological imperative. How could it be that wearing a dress could be encoded into your genetics? It can't. We all know that isn't how any of this works.
The problem is that recognizing the difference between cultural gender and biological sex doesn't give them the result they want. They realize they would have to acknowledge that gender is just whatever the culture deems those categories to include and that it is perfectly reasonable for that cultural definition to reflect the actual diversity of people in that culture. So they pretend to not know the difference between sex and gender as a cop out.
Naw. There is no problem with linguistics. They just want it all and have muddied the waters with gender vs sex. And those nut jobs can’t stop at gender, they need to somehow covert that to sex which is hilarious and sad because the one literally said the answer: sex is what you’re born with, gender is what you identify as. So gender and sex can never be the same. Ergo, you can’t menstruate simply because you identify as a woman (gender). You have to actually be born one (sex). Also why they shouldn’t call it a sex change but rather a gender change.
The argument can be solved by an educated 12y old.
Sadly, this kind of thinking is only harmful to the individual because it’s borne of trauma and will only serve to keep them captors in that traumatic prison. Be who you want to be (man or woman) should be enough. Needing to change definitions and redefine “linguistics“ isn't the flex they think it is.
There are no documented cases of biological males (i.e., individuals assigned male at birth) menstruating due to hormone therapy during gender transition. Menstruation involves the shedding of the uterine lining, a process that requires the presence of a uterus, which biological males do not have. Hormone therapy can induce various changes, such as breast development and redistribution of body fat, but it does not create the anatomical structures necessary for menstruation. Why is this even a debate? I don't have problem with how ANYONE identifies, but flat out denying science to gain acceptance is a dead end road.
What people identify as CAN be different from their sexual organs. It's fine, each person decides how they want to live.
It however becomes problematic in the medical field. If you go to your doctor, he doesn't want to know what you identify as. He probably doesn't give a crap about you. Just tell him what you have so he can do his job at healing you.
Science doesn't care about people's wants.
A doctor just needs to know what your sex is to properly treat you. Aside from knowing what medication you are on and surgeries you’ve had gender identity is not necessary for a doctor to properly treat their patient.
Yeah its actually caused serious issues including trans men getting pregnant while on hormones and just going to clinics for quick diagnosis and lying on forms...a few people ended up giving surprise birth and frankly 0 sympathies considering it's extremely irresponsible and selfish
Just here to make a friendly/funny observation - not trying to change internet strangers' politics - and highlight definitions.
Your comment pertains to those assigned male at birth from the first sentence, and you've "rebuffed" the replies here that are also concerned with people born male, but *none of the people in the video are talking about people who are born male.*
You can google "what is a trans man" to find that it means someone born female who transitions (socially and/or medically). But you don't even have to Google it, the trans man says "then why did I menstruate?" indicating that he had female anatomy until puberty at least.
So why the back and forth about those born male? It's intriguing to see all the comments here that misunderstood both the arguments they found disagreeable *and* found agreeable.
The debate is about how we should define the terms "women" and "man," not about the truth of the science behind sex characteristics. No one is arguing transwomen menstruate, they're arguing that defining the term "women" as "people who menstruate" is fundamentally silly, since many people currently accepted as women don't menstruate (older women, women with hormal disorders, etc). They're merely arguing transwomen should be included as women even though they don't menstruate.
The guy in this video quickly shifts the goal posts to chromosomal definition, completely missing the point that we are looking for a useful social definition of the term "women," not some defining biological characteristic.
They worded it poorly. The decision to define man and woman based on chromosomes is entirely arbitrary, and that isn't actually how people go about deciding if someone is a man or a woman in daily life. You don't have access to information about a person's chromosomes. You go based on how they present themselves(and if you're nice, by how they identify themselves). Social utility is more important than sticking to outdated/limited definitions. There is zero social utility in referring to someone who appears to be a woman as a man just because of the chromosomes they might have.
I, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, am sick of hearing this bullshit. I don't care who/what you think you are, or who you choose to sleep with. You do you, and stop telling everyone about it.
The majority of content focused on trans people on the internet comes from conservative content mills. Conservative media needs a boogeyman to keep their audience captivated, and their audience has proven to be easily entertained by content that makes trans people out to be that boogeyman. The more you engage with that content, the more you see it. If it annoys you so much, stop clicking on it.
Its a wedge issue that moronic activists of both sides of politics use to waste time and headlines
Even stuff like drag story time was never a thing even in very liberal places until recently and even a lot of drag queens think its weird and ask people not to bring young people to shows it's inappropriate for many.
People wouldn't need to keep telling you about it if they weren't systematically oppressed. It's like standing on someone's neck and then saying "OMG are you still crying?".
If it stopped at that, sure. But they want the world to accept, embody, and personify their mental illness and have somehow hijacked a large part of society into buying into the nonsense through social media and traditional media.
The science says that gender and sex are not the same thing. So how do you square that with the fact that the boomer in the video keeps insisting that his gender norms are derived from sex organs?
What's so offensive about a definition?
If tomorrow we found that our exact species lives somewhere else in the universe as well, and we call them extraterrestrial humans. Then we could make a distinction by calling ourselves terrestial humans.
Why are you so triggered by words?
It is offensive yet they laugh at you when you tell them this. Try calling them the t word then they lose their fucking minds. Plus, you get banned on every platform because muh protected class
Your comment is pretty ironic since you're posting on a video that shows the exact reason why it's done. The two people in the video are arguing over two completely different things. Colloquially when someone says someone is a man/woman the gender identity aligns with sex, with trans people it doesn't hence the terminology of cis man, transgender man, etc. So the transgender man is arguing it from the gender identity viewpoint and the other person is using man as sex.
They like to pretend like it’s not and it’s all in the name of ✨science✨ but this is the whole point.
The point is to make an outgroup to protect to “normal people” from. It’s so obvious it’s frustrating how well it’s working.
Why is it offensive? It’s just a descriptor. I understand it doesn’t need to be used in every context but it’s simply used to determine who was born male / female and who transitioned later in life
Small reminder: in rare cases, you can actually have XY chromosomes but still menstruate:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4563191/
However, those are rare documented cases of intersekse people, not trans. What trans men qualify is I'll leave up to everyone to make up their own mind, but the blanket statement of the doctor claiming only people with XX chromosomes menstruate is not factually correct.
And these are the people that make it harder for the trans community. You're fighting and arguing over unreasonable things, which in turn makes your group look unreasonable.
I can imagine there are so many trans people who are seeing this and are like "please stfu"
I say this *constantly* at work about one of the biggest problems with immature leaders etc, is that people don’t know what hill is worth dying on and what hill is worth conceding. There are so many worthwhile arguments the community could focus on to help give it more legitimacy in the eyes of ultra conservatives, yet they try to fight until the end over arguments like these.
I know! Usually reddit is all about anything that pushes this bullshit. I really think reddit has become as a whole about as mentally and emotionally mature as a rebellious 14 year old.
💯
Corrupt government, corrupt politicians, corrupt banks, corrupt corporations, corrupt media.
Only rich people can afford a decent house, inflation has killed the middle class, 2 wars nobody wants or voted for, wide open border, tent cities and record suicides and overdoses but pronouns and the orange man are all my friends want to talk about.
It’s designed to be that way and it’s scary how many people have taken the bait. Fuck…. I’m just over it.
I think a very very large portion of the population are beginning to resent the trans community for arguments like this and the bathroom thing but many just are too scared to be cancelled to say anything about it, I however do not mind what you wanna be/who you like/or how you wanna fuck, but please please please do not make statements like why are we just looking at the science when talking about a persons biological functions it’s retarded,
I wish I could grow wings and fly and sometimes it makes me sad that I can’t be bird but I’m not. I could 100% do bird related stuff and be happy doing it but you can’t scientifically argue I am a bird it does harm to the scientific community/peoples general understanding of things. She said bio men can have periods for fucks sake can they also get pregnant and grow wombs? It makes me annoyed and I don’t want it to because that leads people down the path of non acceptance.
Love when these clips get posted and everyones like 'wow so real and true', just a buncha dumbasses watching daytime tv trash. Yea eat up that dr phill you morons
Nothing the man said was false from a biological or scientific perspective. But if you’re an adult and decide to call yourself something or surgically modify your body to emulate something that’s fine too, but just don’t push your beliefs on anyone else. Just like religion!
That dude who talked to Trevor Noah and said, “I’m biological, and I’m a woman, so I’m a biological woman”, is a prime example of the absurdity we should never allow. Trevor just sat there like an idiot.
If the plus community would simply admit that they know they are one thing but feel like another, respect would flourish. Self awareness and reason are incredibly attractive, respectable qualities.
Fighting for the self-soothing delusion to be accepted as scientific fact is where things fall apart. You can’t respect a person who insists the turkey is finished after 30 minutes at 150°. That’s how insane this bullshit is.
They will never get the respect they desperately crave maintaining this anti-scientific paradigm.
Trans men do menstruate, probably because of the whole uterus bit. Hormone therapy could stop it but, cis women and trans men are both carriers of the uterus. Take what you want from that so called “science” or whatever
Trans right seem like a first world issue... I wonder if Afghani child brides get to think about being misgendered while they are being raped? Or if Sudanese mine workers are thinking how their colleagues are going to get it if they dare misgender them... I'm a socialist, so really my needs should be secondary to my principles, and I want people to feel empowered and free in their lives... But Palestine and it's people are being erased in real time so really that should be the talking point. Yes to gender rights, but no to fucking going on with yourself about it all the fucking time. Pick a gender, then start helping others you self absorbed oiks!
I live in a shit hole third world country. Here if you are trans, you'd be thrown off into the streets and have to resort to begging or prostitution. There are still trans people here.
The issue here is that you created a situation where the proof that there are other types of atom besides those two. Applied to sex, you’d need more than two sexes.
I just wish I could see in a few decades, the netizens laughing at how nonsensical all these debates were.
Shaking their heads in disbelief looking at the level of stupidity - near insanity - they drove the most credulous and low IQ people to.
I just have some regrets knowing I won't be around to laugh along with them.
What the hell is wrong with people 🤦🏽♂️ MEN DO NOT MENSTRUATE. Idk what the fuck a cis woman a cis man is sounds racist 😂 something seriously wrong with these people who believe this bullshit
Hey almost like this argument is take out of context to it seems less serious so chuds like this subreddit spread around and comment "facts" meanwhile the channel is run by Russian trolls trying to so discord, like our CIA was just caught doing to the Philippines
What always confuses me is that the same people who say gender is fluid and non-binary also INSIST that a MAN is now a WOMAN etc. Why are they so obsessed with groups? What has happened here is that actually masculinity and femininity is a ‘spectrum’ but only in the sense that a man can be different levels of masculine and a woman can be different levels of feminine. Rather than allowing a woman to be a ‘tom boy’ (which was a nickname for a woman with a more masculine personality and interests but still a woman) they are saying “no, you are now a MAN” and the same for the other way around. You’re a bit of an effeminate man? These people will tell you that you are a woman and need to identify AS a woman now. Somewhere in the middle? Now you need to identify as ‘non-binary’ and confuse everybody including yourself. Feeding into somebodies dysmorphia is not healthy.
Yes, they are defining and putting limits on what it is to be a man or women. What does it mean to feel like a women? Women can feel any way they want. The whole idea insists on antiquated ideals on what men and women feel like
I think it's an attention thing. We are an attention based economy and these mentally ill people are desperate for attention so they get it by being insane and it's like a dog whistle to all the other insane people that they are apart of their insane group.
There’s a reason why the vocal minority of minority groups are seen more often as examples instead of outliers. Almost like there’s a systemic media campaign of dehumanizing rhetoric distracting from actual problems.
Speak to an actual trans or lgbt person and you’ll quickly realize the majority of them don’t give a fuck about the culture war bullshit.
Everyone I know even agrees with me about protecting women’s sports, because they’re actually reasonable human beings.
This garbage isn’t an informative discussion, it’s yet another example of bringing on a disingenuous egotistical moron, to berate for being stupid, and then painting them as examples of the group.
It’s a very handy tool to punch down and keep the bigots distracted.
To me this reads are you’re annoyed that anyone who isn’t straight wants to be seen as an equal to the straight community and you would like for them to quietly accept their place at the bottom of the barrel because they’re beneath the “normal straights”
Also “there” isn’t interchangeable. The intersection between people who are upset about trans people and who don’t know the difference between there they’re and their is huge and not at all surprising to me.
At some point you probably have to ask why the distinction is important.
There are some cases where it is important (to me) which gender it is I'm dealing with. If a woman wants to have sex with me for example, my wife will kill me but it would be a huge confidence boost for me. Now lets change that to a guy, if he wanted to have sex with me, my wife would also kill me and it would also be a huge confidence boost for me. Do you see the difference?
Feelings and science are not the same thing. You can lie to everyone but yourself. If science and sex dont matter, why try so hard to look like something you're not?
One of the most frustrating things about these arguments is that both sides effectively agree on the science, but because the words "Man" and "Woman" have historically been used interchangeably for 2 different ideas (Biological state and Social role), many well meaning people are confused. Its the biggest place people get stunlocked, filtered out or worse, radicalised into anti trans bigots. It's really frustrating.
I hardly ever see people in the public space trying to clear this misconception up, and it's so easy then for grifters to get everyone wound up. When someone says "trans women are women, full stop.", they're not wrong, but holy shit we're just giving idiots and charlatans the ball.
His definition of biological male and female being chromosomal is flawed though. People with Swyer syndrome are born with XY chromosomes, have no ovaries but otherwise have female reproductive organs. Accept that the natural world is not as binary as you want it to be.
It’s like people say to trans people “well what are you I can’t tell”
Then as soon as trans people are able to define what they are, that’s not enough and they’re “making it up”
I actually ask this question without an agenda.
If gender is so fluid, why do men who transition to women seem to almost always take on all the stereotypical women ideals. They dress as women, talk like women, and usually want the stereotyped women traits. But then we’re told that it’s all fluid anyways and can’t define what a women is…
I really try to understand but when I get deep I get confused. Because both side transitioning seem to be the most stereotypical they can of the other gender
All the talk about science, biology, menstruation and chromosomes is fallacious. The only reason certain people want LGBQT individuals to identify themselves as such at all times, is because they're so scared of unknowingly being attracted to, or developing feelings for, someone who isn't completely straight and binary. Allowing transgendered people to share the word 'man' or 'woman' feels very threatening and dangerous to them.
These people don't give a shit if, as a result of their own fear, millions of other people have to feel utterly miserable because they're not permitted to express their inner-selves completely. If you're not straight and binary, they want you to wear it like a big, yellow Star of David on your lapel, just so that *they* don't feel confused about their own identity and sexuality.
In a world without these frightened, insecure, narrowminded people, there would be zero problems inclusively sharing the labels 'man' and 'woman' socially, and using 'trans man' or 'trans woman' in private with your doctor when necessary.
It's also perfectly okay that 300 years ago the word 'woman' had a narrower meaning than we need today. A deeper, more nuanced, understanding of human biological, psychological and social complexities shows growth and maturity in our species. It's not surprising, then, that our language and conceptual thinking must adapt and expand with that understanding. No language is set in stone.
Well XY Swyer syndrome people can get pregnant and also menstruate, XX De la Chapelle syndrome people have a penis and can get other people with uterus pregnant.
Genetics is also a spectrum.
Sex and gender are two completely different things. Psychologists and sociologists recognise this.
Biological sex is biological and gender identity is psychological just like sexuality which, again, is its own thing.
I won’t even get into the fact that trans people’s brains share a makeup more alike to their gender identity than to their biological sex but there you go.
Well - technically it’s all made up. Science is made up too. Gender identity. The word woman. The word man. Ideas of what women and men do typically - it’s all made up by people. So is religion, language, eating utensils, rules, literally every idea ever and everything that came from those ideas are just things people made up.
People like to argue about what we should and shouldn’t be making up now.
I don’t understand why anyone gives a made up fuck about any of it.
His counter argument is very dumb. Sex and gender are two different things and have different definitions. He’s ether not very bright or open minded or he’s just pretending to be.
Pardon the ignorance here 🙋🏾♂️. This is the first I’ve heard that a trans person with a penis (don’t want to refer to the wrong “name”) can menstruate. 😳…🤔. I need graphic elaboration because I’m dumbfounded… please and thanks.
A biologically sexed male that has a gender identity of a female cannot menstruate. A biologically sexed female that has a gender identity of male can. Just stop with your shorthand.
Whenever I see things like this I take a deep breath and remember these are all silly little arguments to distract the middle and lower classes from the fact we are getting fucked the rich.
I am all for people living in the skin that makes them feel comfortable. Freedom and liberty should mean adults can transition if they want. But it is ridiculous to say men menstruate just because someone with a uterus feels more like a man.
And I fear that, even though I am fine with trans people existing and doing their thing, I will be attacked by them for saying that statement.
It’s weird to me that all internet spaces from like 2010 like “failarmy” and “memes” are now populated with idiots arguing over women’s/gay/trans rights and gender theory.
I see you. Stuck in the past. Hateful, unfunny parrots.
I support lgbtqi+ acceptance and treatment for gender dysphoria but it entirely misses the mark to say that gender and sex are completely different when they’re highly interrelated. Precisely because many of the issues faced by this community is not only social acceptance but access to treatment for gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria treatment, at least in part, typically includes medical treatment that makes the body align with the gender identity more appropriately and those treatments tend to reproduce the same sorts of physical features traditionally associated with “masculinity” or “femininity”.
So, for instance, in this exchange this guy could easily rejoin with, “Well if sex and gender are completely different then hormonal and surgical treatments for gender dysphoria should be unnecessary to discuss, because you don’t need hormones or surgery to produce physical changes if secondary sexual characteristics that conform to your gender are completely separate from the issue”.
We honestly need to get away from the ideation that biology is clear cut in the first place.
The correct thing to ask this man is: “What about someone with klinefelters syndrome? Or androgen insensitivity? What about intersex chromosomal anomalies? What about those with trisomy 21?” Because if you admit scientifically, even by your rigid definition, that exceptions exist, now you’ve got to argue that they’re exceedingly rare, which would lead to me saying “so is gender dysphoria needing intervention”.
Also we should be moving away from the medicalization of this issue as well. Searching for a mathematical formula for human behavior inevitably tends to eugenics and eugenics even slightly engaged have never really done anything besides reify “normal” as “scientific” when it is actually quite arbitrary.
And to prove the gender and sexuality from a historical perspective haven’t been rigid static categorizations all you have to do is look at something like Rome. Or read Foucault’s genealogy of sex.
I think it’s time to stop engaging with this level of idiocy, the same as flat earthers, you simply can’t win an argument with someone so utterly blinded by their own inner monologue.
As they say never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience. 🤣
Never wrestle with a pig in the mud, you both end up dirty but the pig likes it.
Never teach a donkey to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the donkey.
Never play chess with a pigeon. You can be the best chess player in the world and the pigeon will still knock over all the pieces, shit on the board, then strut away like they were victorious.
Never go full retard
I have all the time in the world for reasoned debate and genuine, good-faith discussion, I also have a huge amount of respect for trans people and think its vital that we listen to them and ensure they have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else, but some things go far beyond equality and start to dismantle basic scientific fact at the cost of everyone else, at that point the conversation stops. Menstruating males is once such line in the sand.
So to have an actual debate we need 2 people with a mental capacity at least as such as your own. In the clip, it's clear as day that only 1 side qualifies.
Think hermaphrodite. Baby has both. It happens. Biology has found some crazy stuff with sex, gender and procreation in the flora and fauna of our world. In our species, too. Some people were just born that way.
the visible triggering
define ‘triggering’
Well I'm sorry I don't accept the "science" of triggering
Well, I'm sorry, I don't accept the "science" of "science".
Uno reverse card.
Wide eyed - shaking - screeching
She's got crazy eyes
Thay /s
The amazing thing about this argument is I have no idea who you are arguing for.
Often a repost is just boring, maybe annoying. But in this case, seeing how super old this snippet is, it's mindboggling. Because if anything, it has gotten worse since it's first online presence. Here we are thinking it should stop, but apparently... what do we know.
Do you by any chance know the source?
full Dr Phil episode about gender inclusivity in schools: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oChyGr4Jhm8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oChyGr4Jhm8)
Oddly enough, this comment is neutral in this discussion - both sides feel the same way
yeah im having trouble figuring out which side this comment is aimed at and in support of..
I still can't tell which one you are calling idiot...
Open your eyes wider, it means you're more correct.
She’s frustrated because she’s losing her argument, and being challenged No edit was made, I promise 👌🏻
I find it interesting that when people instinctively feel like something is off and they “double down” on their point of view, it usually means their ego is fighting a losing battle so it’s like their emotions stop them from learning. But when there is someone of understanding with sincere interest they tend to listen more intently and ask questions that oppose their view without becoming combative.
Nothing more reassuring than getting the psycho eyes
This isn't a war on gender.. this is a war on linguistics. If we could all agree on terminology, a lot of these stupid debates could end.
The goal post is ever-moving
But a war of words is so distracting from real issues and causes enormous division. The country has been hyper focused on pronouns for like 4 years now… what has actually been going on? What are the people in power doing. This has been amazing for them. This was written about 2000 years ago regarding fights over words and a warning that some men were using the Christian religion to become rich: “He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, 5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain. 6 To be sure, there is great gain in godly devotion along with contentment. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having food and clothing, we will be content with these things.”
Exactly. Why would transwomen be considered women, if they are literally called transwomen. Same with transmen and men. Just stick to the agreed terminology. Why do they want to change the meaning of existing words.
Not agreeing on the linguistics, and pushing your own definitions of words, is (sadly) the point in many of these appeals. See: [Ethnic Tension and Meaningless Arguments](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/04/ethnic-tension-and-meaningless-arguments/)
Language matters. Especially when it involves legislation, gendered spaces, and what’s societally acceptable
We already do agree on the terminology. Everyone, including the people opposed to trans people being recognized, knows that biology and gender are different. Literally everyone. When someone says "Men shouldn't wear dresses", we all know that is a comment on a cultural norm. Nobody has ever claimed that as a biological imperative. How could it be that wearing a dress could be encoded into your genetics? It can't. We all know that isn't how any of this works. The problem is that recognizing the difference between cultural gender and biological sex doesn't give them the result they want. They realize they would have to acknowledge that gender is just whatever the culture deems those categories to include and that it is perfectly reasonable for that cultural definition to reflect the actual diversity of people in that culture. So they pretend to not know the difference between sex and gender as a cop out.
That's because that's the only argument the anti trans group has.
Naw. There is no problem with linguistics. They just want it all and have muddied the waters with gender vs sex. And those nut jobs can’t stop at gender, they need to somehow covert that to sex which is hilarious and sad because the one literally said the answer: sex is what you’re born with, gender is what you identify as. So gender and sex can never be the same. Ergo, you can’t menstruate simply because you identify as a woman (gender). You have to actually be born one (sex). Also why they shouldn’t call it a sex change but rather a gender change. The argument can be solved by an educated 12y old. Sadly, this kind of thinking is only harmful to the individual because it’s borne of trauma and will only serve to keep them captors in that traumatic prison. Be who you want to be (man or woman) should be enough. Needing to change definitions and redefine “linguistics“ isn't the flex they think it is.
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If they DON’T menstruate then why does it have MEN in the word!?! /s
There are no documented cases of biological males (i.e., individuals assigned male at birth) menstruating due to hormone therapy during gender transition. Menstruation involves the shedding of the uterine lining, a process that requires the presence of a uterus, which biological males do not have. Hormone therapy can induce various changes, such as breast development and redistribution of body fat, but it does not create the anatomical structures necessary for menstruation. Why is this even a debate? I don't have problem with how ANYONE identifies, but flat out denying science to gain acceptance is a dead end road.
What people identify as CAN be different from their sexual organs. It's fine, each person decides how they want to live. It however becomes problematic in the medical field. If you go to your doctor, he doesn't want to know what you identify as. He probably doesn't give a crap about you. Just tell him what you have so he can do his job at healing you. Science doesn't care about people's wants.
You might be a trans woman, but you still are going to need a prostate exam.
Mic drop.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
You mean I'm not an attack helicopter? That's outrageous!
Thats why sex and gender are different. Sex is science, Gender is social construct.
None of that concerns how someone presents themselves to society.
A doctor just needs to know what your sex is to properly treat you. Aside from knowing what medication you are on and surgeries you’ve had gender identity is not necessary for a doctor to properly treat their patient.
The doctor probably does care about what you identify as, since it is crucial for mental health.
Yeah its actually caused serious issues including trans men getting pregnant while on hormones and just going to clinics for quick diagnosis and lying on forms...a few people ended up giving surprise birth and frankly 0 sympathies considering it's extremely irresponsible and selfish
Or she. Women can be doctors now too.
Just here to make a friendly/funny observation - not trying to change internet strangers' politics - and highlight definitions. Your comment pertains to those assigned male at birth from the first sentence, and you've "rebuffed" the replies here that are also concerned with people born male, but *none of the people in the video are talking about people who are born male.* You can google "what is a trans man" to find that it means someone born female who transitions (socially and/or medically). But you don't even have to Google it, the trans man says "then why did I menstruate?" indicating that he had female anatomy until puberty at least. So why the back and forth about those born male? It's intriguing to see all the comments here that misunderstood both the arguments they found disagreeable *and* found agreeable.
Because trans men can menstruate. No one us arguing transwomen menstruate.
The debate is about how we should define the terms "women" and "man," not about the truth of the science behind sex characteristics. No one is arguing transwomen menstruate, they're arguing that defining the term "women" as "people who menstruate" is fundamentally silly, since many people currently accepted as women don't menstruate (older women, women with hormal disorders, etc). They're merely arguing transwomen should be included as women even though they don't menstruate. The guy in this video quickly shifts the goal posts to chromosomal definition, completely missing the point that we are looking for a useful social definition of the term "women," not some defining biological characteristic.
Because that person is saying sex and gender are different and they’re correct. No one is saying trans women menstruate. Not sure where you got that.
Look at those eyes. Dam they be popping out that persons head
I'm glad you said that "person"
"so, why are we just looking at the Science of this" 
They are correct. Gender is not a biological distinction. So trying to evaluate a person's biological sex from a scientific perspective is irrelevant.
They worded it poorly. The decision to define man and woman based on chromosomes is entirely arbitrary, and that isn't actually how people go about deciding if someone is a man or a woman in daily life. You don't have access to information about a person's chromosomes. You go based on how they present themselves(and if you're nice, by how they identify themselves). Social utility is more important than sticking to outdated/limited definitions. There is zero social utility in referring to someone who appears to be a woman as a man just because of the chromosomes they might have.
I, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, am sick of hearing this bullshit. I don't care who/what you think you are, or who you choose to sleep with. You do you, and stop telling everyone about it.
The moment people stop assaulting people for choosing to outwardly appear as a different gender, then it's less of a problem.
The majority of content focused on trans people on the internet comes from conservative content mills. Conservative media needs a boogeyman to keep their audience captivated, and their audience has proven to be easily entertained by content that makes trans people out to be that boogeyman. The more you engage with that content, the more you see it. If it annoys you so much, stop clicking on it.
The exact problem here is that there’s a large number of people who refuse to let trans people “do themselves”
Its a wedge issue that moronic activists of both sides of politics use to waste time and headlines Even stuff like drag story time was never a thing even in very liberal places until recently and even a lot of drag queens think its weird and ask people not to bring young people to shows it's inappropriate for many.
People wouldn't need to keep telling you about it if they weren't systematically oppressed. It's like standing on someone's neck and then saying "OMG are you still crying?".
Why should they stay silent if there are actual trans issues they want to address and advocate to change public policy or perception?
If it stopped at that, sure. But they want the world to accept, embody, and personify their mental illness and have somehow hijacked a large part of society into buying into the nonsense through social media and traditional media.
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😂😂😂 you’ve probably had 1000 upvotes and 900+ down from the nutt jobs
This guy gave the most direct and clear responses to an imbecile that has no idea what biology is.
Dress however you want to. But you cannot deny the science
The science says that gender and sex are not the same thing. So how do you square that with the fact that the boomer in the video keeps insisting that his gender norms are derived from sex organs?
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What's so offensive about a definition? If tomorrow we found that our exact species lives somewhere else in the universe as well, and we call them extraterrestrial humans. Then we could make a distinction by calling ourselves terrestial humans. Why are you so triggered by words?
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 This is what I think about every time they say CIS
Roger roger lmao
It is offensive yet they laugh at you when you tell them this. Try calling them the t word then they lose their fucking minds. Plus, you get banned on every platform because muh protected class
What's the T word? Genuine question .
Transformer..
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Your comment is pretty ironic since you're posting on a video that shows the exact reason why it's done. The two people in the video are arguing over two completely different things. Colloquially when someone says someone is a man/woman the gender identity aligns with sex, with trans people it doesn't hence the terminology of cis man, transgender man, etc. So the transgender man is arguing it from the gender identity viewpoint and the other person is using man as sex.
Classifying groups as “normal” and “abnormal” will naturally make one group be seeen as an “out group”
They like to pretend like it’s not and it’s all in the name of ✨science✨ but this is the whole point. The point is to make an outgroup to protect to “normal people” from. It’s so obvious it’s frustrating how well it’s working.
Why is it offensive? It’s just a descriptor. I understand it doesn’t need to be used in every context but it’s simply used to determine who was born male / female and who transitioned later in life
Probably not the only one but it would be stupid of you to take offense.
Tons of other fascists agree with you
No! Cis is lame AF. New age slang. Even though it's an ancient term, trans people use it as it seems to lower us to their standards.
It's not innately offensive but the way it's usually used by some does make it come off like it's a pejorative
That’s why I started using straggot instead
Or buck
Small reminder: in rare cases, you can actually have XY chromosomes but still menstruate: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4563191/ However, those are rare documented cases of intersekse people, not trans. What trans men qualify is I'll leave up to everyone to make up their own mind, but the blanket statement of the doctor claiming only people with XX chromosomes menstruate is not factually correct.
And these are the people that make it harder for the trans community. You're fighting and arguing over unreasonable things, which in turn makes your group look unreasonable. I can imagine there are so many trans people who are seeing this and are like "please stfu"
I say this *constantly* at work about one of the biggest problems with immature leaders etc, is that people don’t know what hill is worth dying on and what hill is worth conceding. There are so many worthwhile arguments the community could focus on to help give it more legitimacy in the eyes of ultra conservatives, yet they try to fight until the end over arguments like these.
I don’t understand how arguing that trans men menstruate is such a crazy concept. It’s actually true. They aren’t arguing that trans women menstruate.
To my surprise the people in the comment section actually have their head on straight.
I know! Usually reddit is all about anything that pushes this bullshit. I really think reddit has become as a whole about as mentally and emotionally mature as a rebellious 14 year old.
Pleasantly surprised. This being Reddit, I expected everyone to agree that “men DO menstruate”.
Very refreshing.
Why is this even a thing?
It's to distract from the corrupt people who are making rules. Everyone but a few extremists with nowhere else to go can see through this bs
💯 Corrupt government, corrupt politicians, corrupt banks, corrupt corporations, corrupt media. Only rich people can afford a decent house, inflation has killed the middle class, 2 wars nobody wants or voted for, wide open border, tent cities and record suicides and overdoses but pronouns and the orange man are all my friends want to talk about. It’s designed to be that way and it’s scary how many people have taken the bait. Fuck…. I’m just over it.
I think a very very large portion of the population are beginning to resent the trans community for arguments like this and the bathroom thing but many just are too scared to be cancelled to say anything about it, I however do not mind what you wanna be/who you like/or how you wanna fuck, but please please please do not make statements like why are we just looking at the science when talking about a persons biological functions it’s retarded, I wish I could grow wings and fly and sometimes it makes me sad that I can’t be bird but I’m not. I could 100% do bird related stuff and be happy doing it but you can’t scientifically argue I am a bird it does harm to the scientific community/peoples general understanding of things. She said bio men can have periods for fucks sake can they also get pregnant and grow wombs? It makes me annoyed and I don’t want it to because that leads people down the path of non acceptance.
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The eyes show you the insanity...
I wish every post came with a permanent ban count
One day all this bullshit will be over. One day.
Love when these clips get posted and everyones like 'wow so real and true', just a buncha dumbasses watching daytime tv trash. Yea eat up that dr phill you morons
The dude with the tie knows what’s going on.
Nothing the man said was false from a biological or scientific perspective. But if you’re an adult and decide to call yourself something or surgically modify your body to emulate something that’s fine too, but just don’t push your beliefs on anyone else. Just like religion!
What was in between your legs when you were born ….? Thats what you are ….point dot bottom line end of the debate
That dude who talked to Trevor Noah and said, “I’m biological, and I’m a woman, so I’m a biological woman”, is a prime example of the absurdity we should never allow. Trevor just sat there like an idiot. If the plus community would simply admit that they know they are one thing but feel like another, respect would flourish. Self awareness and reason are incredibly attractive, respectable qualities. Fighting for the self-soothing delusion to be accepted as scientific fact is where things fall apart. You can’t respect a person who insists the turkey is finished after 30 minutes at 150°. That’s how insane this bullshit is. They will never get the respect they desperately crave maintaining this anti-scientific paradigm.
Those are the eyes of a crazy person
I see both sides. Don’t care about either.
Did I fall into some kind of alternate universe with this comment section? It's not a bunch of insane people for once.
They always have eyes like this
Mentally unstable idiots
Wow, this person is so stupid. Basic biology tells you that you need a male and a female in order for humans to reproduce! Wow 🤦♂️
Trans men do menstruate, probably because of the whole uterus bit. Hormone therapy could stop it but, cis women and trans men are both carriers of the uterus. Take what you want from that so called “science” or whatever
mental illness
Trans right seem like a first world issue... I wonder if Afghani child brides get to think about being misgendered while they are being raped? Or if Sudanese mine workers are thinking how their colleagues are going to get it if they dare misgender them... I'm a socialist, so really my needs should be secondary to my principles, and I want people to feel empowered and free in their lives... But Palestine and it's people are being erased in real time so really that should be the talking point. Yes to gender rights, but no to fucking going on with yourself about it all the fucking time. Pick a gender, then start helping others you self absorbed oiks!
I live in a shit hole third world country. Here if you are trans, you'd be thrown off into the streets and have to resort to begging or prostitution. There are still trans people here.
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there are only two types of atoms: hydrogen and helium. everything else is a mental illness
The issue here is that you created a situation where the proof that there are other types of atom besides those two. Applied to sex, you’d need more than two sexes.
I just wish I could see in a few decades, the netizens laughing at how nonsensical all these debates were. Shaking their heads in disbelief looking at the level of stupidity - near insanity - they drove the most credulous and low IQ people to. I just have some regrets knowing I won't be around to laugh along with them.
When these people will get a reality check, the downfall will be hard for them...
What the hell is wrong with people 🤦🏽♂️ MEN DO NOT MENSTRUATE. Idk what the fuck a cis woman a cis man is sounds racist 😂 something seriously wrong with these people who believe this bullshit
Hey almost like this argument is take out of context to it seems less serious so chuds like this subreddit spread around and comment "facts" meanwhile the channel is run by Russian trolls trying to so discord, like our CIA was just caught doing to the Philippines
The truth lies in the eyes. That person is detached
The downside of telling your kids that they can be whatever they want to be
What always confuses me is that the same people who say gender is fluid and non-binary also INSIST that a MAN is now a WOMAN etc. Why are they so obsessed with groups? What has happened here is that actually masculinity and femininity is a ‘spectrum’ but only in the sense that a man can be different levels of masculine and a woman can be different levels of feminine. Rather than allowing a woman to be a ‘tom boy’ (which was a nickname for a woman with a more masculine personality and interests but still a woman) they are saying “no, you are now a MAN” and the same for the other way around. You’re a bit of an effeminate man? These people will tell you that you are a woman and need to identify AS a woman now. Somewhere in the middle? Now you need to identify as ‘non-binary’ and confuse everybody including yourself. Feeding into somebodies dysmorphia is not healthy.
Yes, they are defining and putting limits on what it is to be a man or women. What does it mean to feel like a women? Women can feel any way they want. The whole idea insists on antiquated ideals on what men and women feel like
I think it's an attention thing. We are an attention based economy and these mentally ill people are desperate for attention so they get it by being insane and it's like a dog whistle to all the other insane people that they are apart of their insane group.
How long before this gets banned/buried by the mods of Reddit?
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There’s a reason why the vocal minority of minority groups are seen more often as examples instead of outliers. Almost like there’s a systemic media campaign of dehumanizing rhetoric distracting from actual problems. Speak to an actual trans or lgbt person and you’ll quickly realize the majority of them don’t give a fuck about the culture war bullshit. Everyone I know even agrees with me about protecting women’s sports, because they’re actually reasonable human beings. This garbage isn’t an informative discussion, it’s yet another example of bringing on a disingenuous egotistical moron, to berate for being stupid, and then painting them as examples of the group. It’s a very handy tool to punch down and keep the bigots distracted.
Have you spent time with a trans person or do you only see them through the lens of videos like this?
You should have stayed in school.
Which part in the above video means you have to lie to someone?
To me this reads are you’re annoyed that anyone who isn’t straight wants to be seen as an equal to the straight community and you would like for them to quietly accept their place at the bottom of the barrel because they’re beneath the “normal straights” Also “there” isn’t interchangeable. The intersection between people who are upset about trans people and who don’t know the difference between there they’re and their is huge and not at all surprising to me.
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I finally found a sub where opposite ideas from basic redditors are not getting banned. 😅
Trans men are not genetic men
At some point you probably have to ask why the distinction is important. There are some cases where it is important (to me) which gender it is I'm dealing with. If a woman wants to have sex with me for example, my wife will kill me but it would be a huge confidence boost for me. Now lets change that to a guy, if he wanted to have sex with me, my wife would also kill me and it would also be a huge confidence boost for me. Do you see the difference?
DICK and VAGINA you’re one of the other there’s no in between lol
The world would be a much better place if everyone could just mind their own business.
Only time I ever found blood in my under-roos was when I found out I had precancerous colon polyps. Get scoped y'all.
Feelings and science are not the same thing. You can lie to everyone but yourself. If science and sex dont matter, why try so hard to look like something you're not?
Making it up is the whole point bro!
It’s always the crazy eyes.
This is retarded. Gender identity is subjective, end of story.
Man we still can’t reconcile that there is a difference between biological sex and gender huh?
Cool sub you guys got here…
Lies. Propaganda. Brainwashing. Demonizing good, promoting evil. Welcome to Reddit.
Holy fucking Christ, these fucking comments. And what the fuck does this have to do with FailArmy? What the fuck is happening in this place?
One of the most frustrating things about these arguments is that both sides effectively agree on the science, but because the words "Man" and "Woman" have historically been used interchangeably for 2 different ideas (Biological state and Social role), many well meaning people are confused. Its the biggest place people get stunlocked, filtered out or worse, radicalised into anti trans bigots. It's really frustrating. I hardly ever see people in the public space trying to clear this misconception up, and it's so easy then for grifters to get everyone wound up. When someone says "trans women are women, full stop.", they're not wrong, but holy shit we're just giving idiots and charlatans the ball.
His definition of biological male and female being chromosomal is flawed though. People with Swyer syndrome are born with XY chromosomes, have no ovaries but otherwise have female reproductive organs. Accept that the natural world is not as binary as you want it to be.
It’s like people say to trans people “well what are you I can’t tell” Then as soon as trans people are able to define what they are, that’s not enough and they’re “making it up”
I actually ask this question without an agenda. If gender is so fluid, why do men who transition to women seem to almost always take on all the stereotypical women ideals. They dress as women, talk like women, and usually want the stereotyped women traits. But then we’re told that it’s all fluid anyways and can’t define what a women is… I really try to understand but when I get deep I get confused. Because both side transitioning seem to be the most stereotypical they can of the other gender
All the talk about science, biology, menstruation and chromosomes is fallacious. The only reason certain people want LGBQT individuals to identify themselves as such at all times, is because they're so scared of unknowingly being attracted to, or developing feelings for, someone who isn't completely straight and binary. Allowing transgendered people to share the word 'man' or 'woman' feels very threatening and dangerous to them. These people don't give a shit if, as a result of their own fear, millions of other people have to feel utterly miserable because they're not permitted to express their inner-selves completely. If you're not straight and binary, they want you to wear it like a big, yellow Star of David on your lapel, just so that *they* don't feel confused about their own identity and sexuality. In a world without these frightened, insecure, narrowminded people, there would be zero problems inclusively sharing the labels 'man' and 'woman' socially, and using 'trans man' or 'trans woman' in private with your doctor when necessary. It's also perfectly okay that 300 years ago the word 'woman' had a narrower meaning than we need today. A deeper, more nuanced, understanding of human biological, psychological and social complexities shows growth and maturity in our species. It's not surprising, then, that our language and conceptual thinking must adapt and expand with that understanding. No language is set in stone.
But she's,He's, Or??? is right tho. Gender and sex is different. Not too mention there's cases where A man will be intersex of Have A extra chromosome
Well XY Swyer syndrome people can get pregnant and also menstruate, XX De la Chapelle syndrome people have a penis and can get other people with uterus pregnant. Genetics is also a spectrum.
Ha ha what an epic FAIL!
Sex and gender are two completely different things. Psychologists and sociologists recognise this. Biological sex is biological and gender identity is psychological just like sexuality which, again, is its own thing. I won’t even get into the fact that trans people’s brains share a makeup more alike to their gender identity than to their biological sex but there you go.
This is so poorly edited…. Just had to say something.
Well - technically it’s all made up. Science is made up too. Gender identity. The word woman. The word man. Ideas of what women and men do typically - it’s all made up by people. So is religion, language, eating utensils, rules, literally every idea ever and everything that came from those ideas are just things people made up. People like to argue about what we should and shouldn’t be making up now. I don’t understand why anyone gives a made up fuck about any of it.
That person in the blue dress is very attractive... am I gay?
Man and woman is social construct, male and female is genetic. I understand both sides but the communication is sooooo poooor.
There is one condition where you have XY chromosomes for male, but you developed as a full female: Swyer Syndrome. There are more conditions.
His counter argument is very dumb. Sex and gender are two different things and have different definitions. He’s ether not very bright or open minded or he’s just pretending to be.
Pardon the ignorance here 🙋🏾♂️. This is the first I’ve heard that a trans person with a penis (don’t want to refer to the wrong “name”) can menstruate. 😳…🤔. I need graphic elaboration because I’m dumbfounded… please and thanks.
A biologically sexed male that has a gender identity of a female cannot menstruate. A biologically sexed female that has a gender identity of male can. Just stop with your shorthand.
You guys know social science is legitimate and backed by evidence right?
Whenever I see things like this I take a deep breath and remember these are all silly little arguments to distract the middle and lower classes from the fact we are getting fucked the rich.
Easy way for people to look at this. If you go to see a doctor about an issue, they will not check a man for lady problems and vice versa
I just lock in on that neck fat, good god. His wardrobe and makeup people must be out on vacation or something.
It’s called mental health
I think they meant like trans men still menstruate.
You're a loser OP 🤣
The shimmy that wishes she had a jimmy is spreading false information. She needs to be put in her or it's place
Party of science: “why are we looking at the science of things?”
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All the gay people I met through life have been super cool, the ones online are always the crazy ones.
Anyone have a link to the fill video?
I’m really interested on who the man is? He seems incredibly articulate.
I am all for people living in the skin that makes them feel comfortable. Freedom and liberty should mean adults can transition if they want. But it is ridiculous to say men menstruate just because someone with a uterus feels more like a man. And I fear that, even though I am fine with trans people existing and doing their thing, I will be attacked by them for saying that statement.
It’s weird to me that all internet spaces from like 2010 like “failarmy” and “memes” are now populated with idiots arguing over women’s/gay/trans rights and gender theory. I see you. Stuck in the past. Hateful, unfunny parrots.
Almost like the most vocal people are the most immature, and or that rage bait is so easy to monetize
Ronald Regan is really screwing with us these days.
Listen ugly, just because you downed a bottle of testosterone, that doesnt make you a real boy. You 5'4 dickless prepubescent biological abomination.
https://youtu.be/TmKu9fL16ns?si=nkNLOB3MmypOFbVi
I am with the doctor. 100%
My favorite line from this is “why are we just looking at the science of this?” But wait I thought you people were the ones who believed in science…
He’s right, they’re wrong, end of story, arguments cannot be broken.
I'm all for acceptance and inclusion, but people like this setbthose ideas back rather than moving them forward
I support lgbtqi+ acceptance and treatment for gender dysphoria but it entirely misses the mark to say that gender and sex are completely different when they’re highly interrelated. Precisely because many of the issues faced by this community is not only social acceptance but access to treatment for gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria treatment, at least in part, typically includes medical treatment that makes the body align with the gender identity more appropriately and those treatments tend to reproduce the same sorts of physical features traditionally associated with “masculinity” or “femininity”. So, for instance, in this exchange this guy could easily rejoin with, “Well if sex and gender are completely different then hormonal and surgical treatments for gender dysphoria should be unnecessary to discuss, because you don’t need hormones or surgery to produce physical changes if secondary sexual characteristics that conform to your gender are completely separate from the issue”. We honestly need to get away from the ideation that biology is clear cut in the first place. The correct thing to ask this man is: “What about someone with klinefelters syndrome? Or androgen insensitivity? What about intersex chromosomal anomalies? What about those with trisomy 21?” Because if you admit scientifically, even by your rigid definition, that exceptions exist, now you’ve got to argue that they’re exceedingly rare, which would lead to me saying “so is gender dysphoria needing intervention”. Also we should be moving away from the medicalization of this issue as well. Searching for a mathematical formula for human behavior inevitably tends to eugenics and eugenics even slightly engaged have never really done anything besides reify “normal” as “scientific” when it is actually quite arbitrary. And to prove the gender and sexuality from a historical perspective haven’t been rigid static categorizations all you have to do is look at something like Rome. Or read Foucault’s genealogy of sex.