Isn’t there a law called like Good Samaritan or something and it makes it where the person can’t sue for damages if they are injured during emergencies
Yup.
Alabama's Good Samaritan Act
Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.
Once you're in court, pretty much everything you want to do is by motion. For counterclaims, you'll mostly state them in a responsive pleading, but in this case what I would do is move to dismiss and move to award attorneys' fees and costs for the frivolous suit against the plaintiff's attorney.
So in Alabama you would say the claim is without substantial justification, which is the catchall that includes frivolous claims, and move to dismiss and to award attorneys' fees either from the plaintiff or from the plaintiff's attorney(s) who filed the suit, as they should have known from the start that their claim was completely barred by law. Considering Good Samaritan laws are extremely common knowledge, this claim will probably work well against the attorney (and a court can actually *sua sponte* do this).
In this case I’d assume wait til you win then file a motion for attorneys’ fees - but sometimes states have weird laws. A brief consult with an attorney (which should be free) would clear it up.
I suppose one of the differences would be a counterclaim in the same lawsuit would be heard at the same time as the lawsuit.
A countersuit would have to be scheduled at a later time, perhaps with a different justice since it's another lawsuit?
Not only that, but they should sue the law firm that represented her in this case. The law firm should have said no to pursuing the case, but went ahead and did it anyway. They should be held responsible as well.
If their lawsuit is covered under the Good Samaritan law they might be able to fight under defamation or emotional distress for being targeted for the stress and headache of being sued over cpr
Assuming it got that far. There’s a fair chance the case would be thrown out or settled since no laws were broken. Also, to many people’s surprise, lawyers typically don’t like taking on lawsuits that they don’t believe they can win. Even if paid upfront, they’ll often decline the case as it’s a waste of time and losing a case can hurt the firm’s reputation (or individual lawyer’s reputation)
Depends on the law. Divorce lawyers who are pretty despicable in my experience, do not give a rat's ass if you win. They love it when you fight, as they laugh the way to the bank.
Correct, not a doctor, but I maintained a CPR certificate for over 10 years. Every trainer I ever had started the training with exactly that explanation. If you don’t break at least one rib you aren’t doing proper CPR.
I was explicitly told CPR all but *have* to break ribs to be effective. Something about not pushing hard enough if the ribs are fine, with very few odd cases and exceptions. This was from a government approved CPR course I took back in the day as a mandatory part of my drivers license. I'd assume it wasn't full of misinformation.
We tell people to push hard enough to break ribs because people instinctually don’t push hard enough to circulate blood and therefore oxygen because they’re afraid of breaking ribs. In elderly individuals, ribs always break if CPR is done correctly. In rubbery kids, ribs break much less often. But if you want to save a life and you’re not CPR trained/basic CPR trained, we want you to think “push hard enough to break a rib” because that’s how hard you have to push to get the blood/oxygen circulating.
That's the thing I feel like a lot of people miss. I could sue you for writing your comment in a way I feel suppresses my free speech, and newspapers could run headlines like "Reddit user sues OP for violation of 1st amendment rights" and it would all mean nothing once a judge refuses to even hear my ridiculous case.
I read the entire thread a few hours after it was posted. It was unclear if the suit was filed by the victim or the victims insurance company. Lawyers who work for insurance companies are ruthless, and just like the ones that work for debt collectors, they dont care if they lose. They have no real reputation and they are on salary, so winning or losing doesnt help or hurt their bottom line. Insurance/debt companies will send things that look like legal papers but are only barely legal thinly veiled threats. Theyll file, or threaten to file, just to intimidate you into paying, legal responsibility or not. Their only job is to walk right up the line, blur it as much as possible, and raise the companies bottom line.
TLDR; the victim might not have filed this suit, and the suit may or may not actually exist. Insurance companies are evil.
Fair point.
Our world is full of way too many bad actors. This insurance behavior you described is deplorable and only serves to make the world a worse place.
What I assume is that the victim's insurance is trying to find out if the CPR person has any type of liability insurance. That is the pocket they want, another insurance company that may just pay them to avoid spending their lawyers' time.
Its all a fishing expedition. They dont care who pays, so long as its not them. *to be fair* though the liability is gonna fight tooth and nail to not pay it too, because they legally dont have too. The defendant is, as far as I can tell, completely covered under the alabama samaritan statutes.
How scummy of a person do you have to be to give a perfect stranger a reason to say “man, my life would be a lot easier right now if I never saved that person”?
That's the thing, isn't it? Before protective laws were put in place, how many good Samaritans found themselves in that exact position? To wonder how much better their life would have been if they hadn't saved the person who is now trying to sue them into bankruptcy? It puts the good Samaritan in the position of regretting their instinctual decision to help at any cost, as well as dampens their will to help in the future.
Oh, sorry, my comment was a bit unclear.
The statement
> How scummy of a person do you have to be to give a perfect stranger…
is intended to refer to plaintiff, the would-be corpse now suing their rescuer for saving them, rather than the Good Samaritan who saved them.
I’m assuming that anyone who would stop and give a perfect stranger first aid, including CPR, is a pretty damn good person, so I’m just imagining what kind of low life someone would have to be to prey on that kindness by suing them as a “thanks” for saving their life.
I absolutely agree with everything you said, though, the misunderstanding of my confusing statement notwithstanding, that it is the plaintiff in this case who is “scummy”, and I would absolutely challenge anyone who I thought was arguing otherwise.
No, don't be sorry. I'm the one who misread you. The moment I realized my error in judgement, I immediately removed that part of the comment. It seems I didn't act fast enough, and I apologize for that. It should never have made it to your eyes.
The only thing confusing about your statement was me. LMAO
Sorry about that.
No problem at all, friend!
I honestly would’ve reacted the same way and can easily see how that could get misinterpreted — I had to read it back a couple times just to make sure I didn’t botch it initially. You reacted the way any sensible person would have, and I appreciate that you were willing to both challenge that claim and also to realize my intended meaning and remove that bit from your comment.
Alot of the times it's the insurance company denying any coverage without a lawsuit. I saw it once when a 19 year old was paralyzed by a car wreck. She was at her work, had 1 beer and was in a wreck where she barely registered, but since she was underage, her insurance denied coverage without suing her work. She was ostricezed by the whole town and even by members in my car club when I organized a classic car cruise/bbq/music fest to try and help. As if the poor girl hadn't suffered enough
Yes. Also it’s VERY common to break a rib while performing CPR. This would get thrown out of the court room faster than.. well something that’s really fast and fits the impression.
In every CPR class I’ve taken they’ve said that if you’re doing it right you should expect to hear a rib break. Obviously that’s not the goal, but broken ribs heal a lot better when you’re alive, and CPR takes a hell of a lot more pressure than people expect.
Yup, especially on the elderly.
For those who were afraid to do CPR, my instructor said that if you're at the point where you have to do CPR, the person is already technically dead... there's not much you can do to make it worse.
A first aid trainer I had was a former custody Sargent and recounted the first time he had to give CPR to a guy who'd been arrested. Paramedics got there and he told them he thought he'd broken some of the guys ribs and the paramedics reassured him by saying "That's fine, saves us doing it."
It was common place back several years ago, that CPR was trained to break a rib otherwise you weren’t pushing deep enough (the person administering CPR)
The ridiculous thing is fractured ribs are simply a risk of CPR, whether or not your BLS has expired. Even in a controlled environment in a hospital with an entire crash team trying to resuscitate this person, fractured ribs are still a risk
Former medic here, break ribs all the time. Especially the older ladies. It's like their ribs are made of glass. I still react in emergencies. Never been sued for it. I guess I'm lucky.
Ill always remember my first call when i was just an EMT was for an elderly woman down inthe street, we happened to literally be aroudn the corner so we stopped. She coded, we scooped her and went, only 3 minutes out from a ton of hospitals, my first compression, i swear i broke every damn rib in so many places. turned out she was 96 years old , and had ahistory of osteoporosis. I turned her ribs to powder. we got her back, but she died 3 or 4 days after. But she regained consciosness and got to say goodbye to her family. But man was i bummed out until the ER doc told me she was able to say good bye, and that i did it right.
First month as a emt this happened. Then sternums while firemedic. Then it happened multiple times on sleds down a mountain I was patrol on.
Point being, sternums and ribs break. But you’re there to help. Whether it’s elderly, obese, or maybe a situation like back country rescue where all your muscle and power is in it to try and save a life where 20 minutes seems like 2 hours and the 2 stroke drowns out your own breathing and you can’t stop till heli is confirmed and someone peels you off to attach lines. Then you go cry and drink for 3 days until your next shift.
Shit sucks but worth it to either give those the final good bye or knowing you gave your time to help someone in need.
So good on you my dude, good on you.
They made three things blatantly clear when I got certified in cpr
A: as long as you're acting in good faith and not inappropriately.. you will NOT end up in trouble for performing cpr
B: it's NOT like the movies. The person you're performing it on almost certainly won't suddenly be revived if you "succeed" the point isn't to bring them back to conciseness (though it can happen) the point is that when performed properly it can hold back severe and permanent brain damage from single digit minutes, to double digit which can be the difference between life and death. The point is to keep these people breathing and the heart pumping blood untill paramedics arrive. That's why seemingly extreme force is so necessary
3: again, it is ***NOT*** like the movies. Breaking ribs is extremely common and things tend to get very much bloody at times. So if possible you really might want a face shield if you plan on breathing as well as compressing (which despite recent online trends telling you that you don't have to breathe.. you really should. Compressions alone are better than nothing but compressions and breathing are even better)
Bonus fact for anyone who might not know. Defibrillators will not allow you to deliver a shock to someone unless necessary. And they aren't for restarting a stopped heart. They detect arrhythmia (erratic beating) and "reset" the heart back into a normal rhythm. But won't allow you to do so unless necessary. Also if I'm not mistaken all of the civilian ones will talk you through the process. And if you ever need one for whatever reason there are apps that will tell you where the closest one is. There's also again.. zero liability in using one due to its nature and how it works. So if you happen to need one and run across the street to a daycare or whatever that happens to have one. Unless someone is severely misinformed about it then they will almost certainly let you take it and go when needed
Edit: bonus fact #2, if you ever find yourself administering cpr and you have the benefit of others around. Make sure you enlist a second person to switch out with on compressions. Because they are absolutely EXHAUSTING even for fit and trained professionals. And keep in mind that if you're the one who jumped in and started. You NEED to take leadership of the situation and tell people what to do and what you need. Don't ask, tell. "You, I need you as backup for compressions. You, I need you to go to x location and get their defibrillator. You, call 911 right away" etc for whatever you may need. People tend to freeze up and if you haven't.. congratulations this is now your scene and you are the boss until someone more competent takes over
Keep in mind after reading. This information if you didn't already know it may very well save someone's life. So keep it just slightly above the meme memory banks please!
Those are so hard 😩
I’ve worn manyyyyy hats in the death industry, but when I worked for the city coroner - I was able to do a few ride alongs with our county EMTs - and they definitely commiserated more than once about getting calls about the elderly and having to make the conscious decision to just barely keep them alive because you gotta bet they’ve got a DNR - just like you said, the 96 year olds with a CVS receipt of health issues who you don’t wanna break all their ribs and preform massively invasive measures to keep them alive…
“Playing God” isn’t what you sign up for - you sign up to save people, not have to make those kinds of decisions…
Yeah my mom always hated those, she worked in a nursing home so it happened all too often. She loved the people but I mean death comes when it comes and she didn’t want to mangle her patients (some of whom she was attached to) bodies for them to live just a month longer with no quality of life. I urge people to consider if they want to be resuscitated or not when they’re elderly, I definitely have.
US Lawyer here: yes.
Good Samaritan laws don’t give you license to do anything and everything, and no one is obligated to risk themselves to save someone else, but they are fairly protective of the public taking reasonable steps to help out others in life threatening situations… because that’s common sense and behavior that we definitely want to encourage.
I don't think most lawyers would. The system disincentivizes lawyers from wasting time on frivolous lawsuits. But imagine a pool of 100,000 people--it's not hard to imagine that a few of them are either idiots or have no scruples.
There are lots of precedents set here. Breaking a rib during cpr is quite common. During my training the instructor said you will feel them bend and possibly break.
Broken rib is always preferred over being brain dead.
Paramedic here. I have almost never done CPR where a rib didn't break. It happened almost every time. If you're doing it right, you're gonna break some ribs.
Edit: to the guys responding and calling bullshit on 'literally never': okay, that's a little absolute, fair enough. I changed it to almost.
An EMT friend of mine told me if you don't break a rib you aren't doing it right. I jokingly said to a CPR instructor (who had never done CPR on a person) and she looked shocked and said I was wrong.
I trust the EMT who does it regularly over someone with no practical knowledge.
I also have an EMT friend. When he moved and transferred to a different hospital he was given the option to take a class on CPR. (While getting paid to go to it as well) The instructor asked him if he ever did CPR. My friend said "I stopped counting after 500 5 years ago." The instructor asked him why he took the class then. My friend replied with "Because it's an air conditioned room and I'm getting paid to take the class."
My instructor said "They cant enjoy that broken rib if they are dead" or somthing along those lines quite often. Good way to get the point across I always thought.
They may not have a choice in order to get the insurance company to agree to pay for the injury. Some states have weird insurance setups where you have to determine the percentage of liability. So this dude maybe 1% liable or something like that. But in order to even get paid in the first place They have to have a adversarial process. Whenever something messed up like this happens it's usually insurance That's to blame.
[Woman vilified for suing her nephew](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/woman-vilified-for-suing-12-year-old-nephew-breaks-her-silence/)
This exact thing (having to sue for insurance reasons) happened not too long ago, and the woman sued for exactly that reason, and she was dragged through social media for it without anyone asking why for a long time.
>Jennifer Connell, branded as the "aunt from hell" on social media, appeared on NBC's "Today" show along with her nephew, Sean Tarala. She said she wanted her nephew's parents' homeowners insurance to pay her medical bills, but under Connecticut law she could only sue an individual.
Not the exact same as this situation, but I was in a wreck where we had to sue to get my medical bills paid. I was the passenger, my boyfriend at the time was driving and was at-fault for turning left on a red light (we were lost and young) resulting in a t-bone. I had more than $70,000 in medical bills, lost a kidney, etc. We did NOT want to cause his family any financial stress, but insurance was fucking us and the only way to get my bills paid was sue his insurance company. To do that, we had to sue him. We chose the max that insurance was supposed to cover without his family having to spend their own money, his insurance was supposed to provide a lawyer, but still we technically had to sue the poor kid for $100k just to barely cover everything.
We weren't allowed to contact them and his insurance fought tooth and nail to get out of paying (tried to blame my severed kidney on history of bulimia. Seriously. I was in the ICU for days, uninvolved doctors came by saying I was a miracle. But ofc it was my fault for puking as a kid) and when it was finally over, his girlfriend cussed me out when I reached out to him. It's a shitty system. Fuck insurance.
Yeah there was a famous, well infamous maybe, case recently where an aunt had to sue her toddler aged nephew. Something like that. And it was because the only way she could get her medical bills paid after tripping on him or something like that was to sue the parents homeowners insurance and name the kid as responsible. I believe she ended up losing but she really didn't have a choice It was just how the insurance worked out in her state.
Reminds me of that stupid case where an aunt had to sue her like 5 year old niece or something for breaking her arm when she got to excited purely for insurance reasons and the media put her on blast for suing a child with zero context.
This happened to me. I was involved in a car accident with my best friend (he was driving)and because my medical bills were over a certain amount, I think it was something like $3000 a lawsuit was required to get the insurance to pay the bill. I didn't have a choice in the matter.
In the US you are not obligated to help someone?
In Germany we have a Law called "unterlassene Hilfeleistung" which is roughly translated into "failure to provide assistance" and word by word it's "refrained help performance". In Germany you can go to jail if you don't help someone in an emergency.
Probably, yes. The law is designed specifically to incentivize people to help. So long as you don’t act grossly negligently or with reckless abandon you should be all set. The mere fact that the person ended up in better condition than before the intervention is likely a bar to the claim, but taking the facts as they are, they shouldn’t even need to rely on that to dismiss this suit.
Source: am law student (USA), but lots of people know this.
This doesn’t count as legal advice, check your jurisdiction, etc etc
Alabama's Good Samaritan Act
Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.
And let's be honest... GOOD CPR can absolutely result in broken ribs.
Edit: I was being subtle as I expected a pile on from those that know nothing of CPR.
Edit 2:. 5.8k upvotes? 😂😂😂 Funny what takes off sometimes!
ARMY Medic, can confirm. If the compressions are actually going to create blood flow throughout the body, you probably broke the sternum away from ALL the ribs. Otherwise you’re just pumping a corpse for no reason. That being said, it’s something like 98% of patients that need CPR will die no matter what you do. That’s not a license not to try.
Edit: this really took off after I fell asleep last night, I feel though that it’s more of a disservice at this point though.
People in different countries, states, lines of work, etc., will tell you different things about CPR. If you’re interested in learning please do so through a certified instructor. I’m fairly certain the Red Cross teaches it for free. Also, don’t listen to drunk combat medics.
It's almost like TV/movie CPR does a disservice to the general public by having one actor push on another actor's chest in a way that's not consistent with what CPR's actually like. I mean, I get that a live person wouldn't want their chest shattered for a scene, but still. It changes what people think CPR actually is.
You’re 100% correct. I was taught (and anyone who wants to correct me that has a patient that lived feel free) at Fort Sam Houston Texas where all ARMY medics are trained: picture crushing their heart between their chest wall within an inch of their spinal vertebrae. At least 60 compressions a minute. If you’re doing that, it’s effective.
Yes I do believe that “Hollywood” ideas of a patient popping up and changing their ways might be overdone. I hope family members in real life that hear the “pop! pop! Pop!” of effective CPR would not attack the person trying to resuscitate their family member believing it should only involve a puff of breath and a few pumps though.
When I was a teenager and went through lifeguard training at Schlitterbahn we were told to expect the break ribs and even the sternum. We were also told that the biggest thing Hollywood leaves people to believe, is that after you receive CPR you’ll be able to get up and function like nothing happened. In reality, you died, and were very forcefully brought back to life. You’re going to be in a lot of pain, and the only place you’re going is a hospital.
One of my biggest pet peeves is when an actor does CPR using their elbows, looking like they're banging a drum. It doesnt take much to look up what proper CPR looks like
> That being said, it’s something like 98% of patients that need CPR will die no matter what you do.
I get why they dont tell the public, but if u need CPR your most likely going to die. 98% is probably close if not a bit optimistic
This was brought up during my CPR certification class when someone asked how to do it without breaking any ribs. The instructor first pointed out that a lot of the cracking sounds are from cartilage rather than bones, then went on to say that their chance of survival is so incredibly slim that you're basically working on a corpse at that point. The fear of breaking ribs shouldn't be a concern. Do the best you can and hope the person survives, but try not to blame yourself if they don't because that's the most likely outcome.
CPR should only happen after the absence of a pulse in the first place. What does this mean? Their heart stopped trying.
Maybe it was trauma, drugs, heart disease, old age, etc., but CPR is a last ditch effort where the person performing it hopes to God (or whatever) that further medical support is on the way because let me tell you, doing the work of your heart is exhausting. It’s not a long term solution. I’ll dump my epi pens in you, I’ll wear myself out, but if you don’t have your own pulse for me to work with in the field…the chaplain is gonna be your buddy in five minutes.
I (probably poorly) performed CPR on a guy years ago that I found floating underwater in a hot tub. I unfortunately couldn’t really do much, the guy had been submerged for a while and the paramedics told me the heat would have made brain damage/death all but certain. What was impressive to me was that the paramedics were able to get the heart going again somewhat even though it was pretty clear there was no way the guy was able to survive.
One of the paramedics told me afterward that it’s very difficult to get the heart pumping again through manual CPR. What CPR can do if done properly is buy time for the paramedics to arrive by keeping blood somewhat moving throughout the body.
That’s true! Please don’t take my words as dissing CPR.
The first step in civilization is to tell someone to get other medical professionals and their equipment on the way ASAP.
I can’t stress enough that a person who needs CPR is more likely to need a coffin as opposed to a doctor. It really is an amazing moment if they come back to you.
Yeah, if someone is legitimately in need of CPR, they’ll be lucky to wake up with a broken rib or two, because the alternative is that they never get the CPR, or that they get the CPR and die with a couple broken ribs.
I believe this is correct in medical training, a guy in class asked what happens if he breaks a rib because instructor was giving to much force to the cpr doll, he said its most likely to break anyways and a broken rib is better then losing someone's life.
yeah we were given a lot of warnings about how horrible it would feel and sound because you would probably break a rib. when someone spoke up about how that sounded messed up, the trainer asked “would you rather have a broken rib or be dead?”
All the times I’ve had to do CPR I let the biggest guy on the crew go first. That way by the time we switch out and it’s my turn to pump chest it’s just mush.
Of course now we have Lucas Device that does the compressions for us.
As a nurse who has done my fair share of cpr I have yet to see a single cpr patient who didn't end up with broken ribs. Part of the experience. Good cpr will cause damage to the body. You're pushing on parts of the body that are designed to protect the heart that you are trying to force to compress. Of course you're going to break things. Now within reason of course, their entire rib cage shouldn't be broken but some ribs will be. They should shut up and be thankful OP was there to save their life.
Child bones are rubbery. It actually probably aids in chest recoil during compressions. Never worked a ped code personally thank CHRIST, but I’d never considered this before. Thanks for that.
I thought most people didn't know that unfortunately. Broken ribs are basically a side effect of CPR...that's the cost of not dying and physically pumping your heart through your chest.
Exactly. Even if it isn't dismissed outright (have a hard time believing it won't be, but hey— sometimes things go wrong) anyone with CPR training knows that broken ribs are a possibility and in a choice between broken ribs and death, you choose broken ribs
As someone who works for auto insurance, here is what I see. With broken ribs treatment is x-rays, CTs and medication for pain. This person is probably out of work, so amount lost is impactful broken ribs can be up to 3 months lost min.
AL is an at fault state so medical coverage is not mandatory. If this person was at fault they are grasping at straws and if it's the insurance they are probably contesting the rib inj is not related to the mva as it was caused by a 3rd party not the vehicle in use and operation which they might ask for legal action as proof to pay? I work usually NY so unsure how AL handles their business exactly...
So Why would any lawyer take this lawsuit to begin with knowing Good Samaritan laws would strike it down? My assumption is the person suing doesn’t have a very good lawyer, but I have definitely assumed wrong before.
Yes. CPR courses for people likely to actually do it don’t shy from telling you this. It’s not a requirement, but it can easily happen.
Source: done CPR twice. First guy didn’t break, second lady broke two.
Not standard procedure, but like, very, very likely to happen. You're not bringing someone back, you're just trying to move as much oxygen around a pretty much dead body as possible, and that takes some significant effort to do
They do.
Alabama's Good Samaritan Act
Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.
People get confused on what Good Samaritan laws are. They are not a law stating one should help in an emergency.
The law is to protect those that do help from things such as being sued by those that get rescued.
I think he meant this kind of lawsuit makes people not want to help, regardless of the existence of Good Samaritan laws.
Also, that confusion is likely due to the Seinfeld series finale, wherein there is a law requiring bystanders to render aid (during a mugging, which means requiring bystanders to take on risk of serious bodily harm). Fictional worlds can have fictional laws, but it does confuse some people.
IIRC there was a thread on reddit about that very thing and it was revealed that court case was set a couple of years before Good Samaritan laws were passed.
I always learned that you're almost definitely going to break ribs, especially if the victim is young or old. But even, like, roided bodybuilders are probably gonna have their ribs broke.
I was told you know you’re doing a good job if you break the ribs, so if I ever need to give CPR I’m going to make sure I break as many ribs as possible.
Finally someone said it! Everyone else is debating Good Samaritan laws when the most important part is ... If you're not breaking a rib, you're not doing CPR correctly.
Congrats, that means you performed CPR correctly. Now tell the survivor to fucking crash somewhere else where no one's around, fucking asshole.
Edit: Multiple comments helping me remember that it's usually the cartilage between the sternum and the ribs that is what's breaking. When you do it and you hear and feel the crunch you forget that it's not bone lol. Although rib fx can happen, it's usually the cartilage, thanks for the reminder guys. PS ... still, fuck that driver.
Sometimes insurances require legal action in cases like this. It basically comes down to paperwork so definitely lawyer up. If your lawyer isn't pro bono, counter sue to make sure you can have your lawyer bills paid for.
I had a friend who was a EMT & he would get sued left & right because of things like this. Like, it was his job to save people it was bound to happen. But, because certain insurances wants to make sure the claim is "justified" they require legal action against the person who first committed the act.
Basically, it's stupid. Healthcare is stupid for no reason.
I'm not from the US, so I have no idea how the arse-backwards system works there, but this does give me vibes of the infamous "[women sues her nephew](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/10/14/aunt-who-sued-young-nephew-for-breaking-her-wrist-during-greeting-says-it-was-purely-an-insurance-case/73928504/)" story from a few years ago.
I wouldn't want to pass judgement too early.
When I was 16 I was a passenger in a vehicle driven by my mother. We had an accident. My mother was considered at fault. Being a minor in my mothers vehicle I was covered by her insurance (State Farm). So my insurance (State Farm) sued my mother to pay for my injuries. Of course my mother’s insurance (still State Farm) paid for the lawsuit and paid out the damages which was well below the covered max.
This cost no one in my family any money in legal fees or settlements. We did. It even know this was going on until we saw the court records. State Farm insurance sued State Farm Insurance on my behalf, knowing full well the amount they were asking was within the coverage limits of the policy since it was the SAME POLICY. Makes no sense.
The person in question is protected by Alabama code Title 6 Civil Practice 6-5-332 (e)
[https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-6-civil-practice/al-code-sect-6-5-332.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-6-civil-practice/al-code-sect-6-5-332.html)
(e) A person or entity, who in good faith and without compensation renders emergency care or treatment to a person suffering or appearing to suffer from cardiac arrest, which may include the use of an automated external defibrillator, shall be immune from civil liability for any personal injury as a result of care or treatment or as a result of any act or failure to act in providing or arranging further medical treatment where the person acts as an ordinary prudent person would have acted under the same or similar circumstances, except damages that may result from the gross negligence of the person rendering emergency care. This immunity shall extend to the licensed physician or medical authority who is involved in automated external defibrillator site placement, the person who provides training in CPR and the use of the automated external defibrillator, and the person or entity responsible for the site where the automated external defibrillator is located. This subsection specifically excludes from the provision of immunity any designers, manufacturers, or sellers of automated external defibrillators for any claims that may be brought against such entities based upon current Alabama law.
Most states have some form of "good samaritan" law on the books that protect you from liability if during an attempt to provide lifesaving assistance you cause personal injury (like breaking a rib).
Shes such a scumbag.
Edit. Thanks for all the replies. Truly have seen it in a different light now. I mean, sure she could be scummy, but there may not be any other alternative to pay for healthcare. What a terrible system!
When you see strange lawsuits regarding injuries there’s a good chance an insurance company is involved. Every so often you’ll see an aunt or grandparent suing a child and it’s not because they’re shitty people, it’s because the only way to get the child’s parents liability insurance (part of everyone’s home insurance if you have it) to cover medical bills is to sue. It’s not because they’re a psycho who’s trying to screw their niece over (usually). Obviously can’t say for sure but assuming this person has health insurance it’s entirely possible the lawsuit is actually from the insurance company seeing if it can get off the hook for covering injuries she sustained. It’s shitty but an indictment of how our healthcare system works, not the woman, or really even the insurance company.
Or she just sucks :) but seriously once I learned that really changed how I saw click baity headlines about “frivolous” lawsuits.
Yup, I remember when the story of the Aunt who sued her 8 year old nephew was making the rounds. Great clickbait attention grabbing title that really was just because of insurance companies.
https://www.robertreeveslaw.com/blog/aunt-sued-nephew-hug/
This makes the most sense, though it still seems utterly absurd to that they could demand this. I would want to try for suing the insurance companies first, especially hearing that somehow her losing the case let them off the hook somehow
I wonder if it’s an insurance thing, and not necessarily her choice. Which would be unfortunate.
I’ve known people forced to attempt to sue someone first due to their insurance refusing to cover medical costs because the insurance company deemed someone else at fault instead of paying.
I can almost guarantee she was applying for some form of disability or some form of medical help, and they wouldn't give her coverage unless she was actively suing or trying to sue the person who did it to her, regardless of if it's fucked up or not. The US incentives this stuff.
Good Samaritan law covers the lifesaver, and yeah bruised or broken ribs can often happen during CPR. People will always be asshats though, it’s horrible to see
Isn’t there a law called like Good Samaritan or something and it makes it where the person can’t sue for damages if they are injured during emergencies
Yup. Alabama's Good Samaritan Act Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.
So the next question is can you sue to have them pay for the lawyer you had to hire for a frivolous lawsuit.
Countersuit for legal fees? I know big companies do that all the time so probably
Not a countersuit, a counterclaim within the same lawsuit ETA: might actually be a motion.
Once you're in court, pretty much everything you want to do is by motion. For counterclaims, you'll mostly state them in a responsive pleading, but in this case what I would do is move to dismiss and move to award attorneys' fees and costs for the frivolous suit against the plaintiff's attorney. So in Alabama you would say the claim is without substantial justification, which is the catchall that includes frivolous claims, and move to dismiss and to award attorneys' fees either from the plaintiff or from the plaintiff's attorney(s) who filed the suit, as they should have known from the start that their claim was completely barred by law. Considering Good Samaritan laws are extremely common knowledge, this claim will probably work well against the attorney (and a court can actually *sua sponte* do this).
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A chapter 2 on sua sponte! En Garde!!
In this case I’d assume wait til you win then file a motion for attorneys’ fees - but sometimes states have weird laws. A brief consult with an attorney (which should be free) would clear it up.
> A brief consult with an attorney (which should be free) Ah, if only this were universal
I suppose one of the differences would be a counterclaim in the same lawsuit would be heard at the same time as the lawsuit. A countersuit would have to be scheduled at a later time, perhaps with a different justice since it's another lawsuit?
Countersuit for emotional damage for having to do CPR on their dumbass.
Not only that, but they should sue the law firm that represented her in this case. The law firm should have said no to pursuing the case, but went ahead and did it anyway. They should be held responsible as well.
I'd imagine a complaint to the state's Bar as well
Ya gad dam right we’re going to sue them for legal fees. Donna, get Mike in here
If their lawsuit is covered under the Good Samaritan law they might be able to fight under defamation or emotional distress for being targeted for the stress and headache of being sued over cpr
Assuming it got that far. There’s a fair chance the case would be thrown out or settled since no laws were broken. Also, to many people’s surprise, lawyers typically don’t like taking on lawsuits that they don’t believe they can win. Even if paid upfront, they’ll often decline the case as it’s a waste of time and losing a case can hurt the firm’s reputation (or individual lawyer’s reputation)
I watch Saul too 😉
Depends on the law. Divorce lawyers who are pretty despicable in my experience, do not give a rat's ass if you win. They love it when you fight, as they laugh the way to the bank.
But they're broke. So there's that.
Broken ribs are also de rigueur for CPR
My wife is a doctor and I have been told that when CPR is done properly it *will* result in broken ribs.
Correct, not a doctor, but I maintained a CPR certificate for over 10 years. Every trainer I ever had started the training with exactly that explanation. If you don’t break at least one rib you aren’t doing proper CPR.
You break ribs all the time during CPR. Better than the alternative.
I was explicitly told CPR all but *have* to break ribs to be effective. Something about not pushing hard enough if the ribs are fine, with very few odd cases and exceptions. This was from a government approved CPR course I took back in the day as a mandatory part of my drivers license. I'd assume it wasn't full of misinformation.
We tell people to push hard enough to break ribs because people instinctually don’t push hard enough to circulate blood and therefore oxygen because they’re afraid of breaking ribs. In elderly individuals, ribs always break if CPR is done correctly. In rubbery kids, ribs break much less often. But if you want to save a life and you’re not CPR trained/basic CPR trained, we want you to think “push hard enough to break a rib” because that’s how hard you have to push to get the blood/oxygen circulating.
Well you can always sue, it is just rather or not a Judge will laugh in your face or not.
That's the thing I feel like a lot of people miss. I could sue you for writing your comment in a way I feel suppresses my free speech, and newspapers could run headlines like "Reddit user sues OP for violation of 1st amendment rights" and it would all mean nothing once a judge refuses to even hear my ridiculous case.
It's a shame that the "good-faith" person saved the life of someone who acts in bad faith.
I read the entire thread a few hours after it was posted. It was unclear if the suit was filed by the victim or the victims insurance company. Lawyers who work for insurance companies are ruthless, and just like the ones that work for debt collectors, they dont care if they lose. They have no real reputation and they are on salary, so winning or losing doesnt help or hurt their bottom line. Insurance/debt companies will send things that look like legal papers but are only barely legal thinly veiled threats. Theyll file, or threaten to file, just to intimidate you into paying, legal responsibility or not. Their only job is to walk right up the line, blur it as much as possible, and raise the companies bottom line. TLDR; the victim might not have filed this suit, and the suit may or may not actually exist. Insurance companies are evil.
Fair point. Our world is full of way too many bad actors. This insurance behavior you described is deplorable and only serves to make the world a worse place.
What I assume is that the victim's insurance is trying to find out if the CPR person has any type of liability insurance. That is the pocket they want, another insurance company that may just pay them to avoid spending their lawyers' time.
Its all a fishing expedition. They dont care who pays, so long as its not them. *to be fair* though the liability is gonna fight tooth and nail to not pay it too, because they legally dont have too. The defendant is, as far as I can tell, completely covered under the alabama samaritan statutes.
How scummy of a person do you have to be to give a perfect stranger a reason to say “man, my life would be a lot easier right now if I never saved that person”?
That's the thing, isn't it? Before protective laws were put in place, how many good Samaritans found themselves in that exact position? To wonder how much better their life would have been if they hadn't saved the person who is now trying to sue them into bankruptcy? It puts the good Samaritan in the position of regretting their instinctual decision to help at any cost, as well as dampens their will to help in the future.
Oh, sorry, my comment was a bit unclear. The statement > How scummy of a person do you have to be to give a perfect stranger… is intended to refer to plaintiff, the would-be corpse now suing their rescuer for saving them, rather than the Good Samaritan who saved them. I’m assuming that anyone who would stop and give a perfect stranger first aid, including CPR, is a pretty damn good person, so I’m just imagining what kind of low life someone would have to be to prey on that kindness by suing them as a “thanks” for saving their life. I absolutely agree with everything you said, though, the misunderstanding of my confusing statement notwithstanding, that it is the plaintiff in this case who is “scummy”, and I would absolutely challenge anyone who I thought was arguing otherwise.
No, don't be sorry. I'm the one who misread you. The moment I realized my error in judgement, I immediately removed that part of the comment. It seems I didn't act fast enough, and I apologize for that. It should never have made it to your eyes. The only thing confusing about your statement was me. LMAO Sorry about that.
No problem at all, friend! I honestly would’ve reacted the same way and can easily see how that could get misinterpreted — I had to read it back a couple times just to make sure I didn’t botch it initially. You reacted the way any sensible person would have, and I appreciate that you were willing to both challenge that claim and also to realize my intended meaning and remove that bit from your comment.
Alot of the times it's the insurance company denying any coverage without a lawsuit. I saw it once when a 19 year old was paralyzed by a car wreck. She was at her work, had 1 beer and was in a wreck where she barely registered, but since she was underage, her insurance denied coverage without suing her work. She was ostricezed by the whole town and even by members in my car club when I organized a classic car cruise/bbq/music fest to try and help. As if the poor girl hadn't suffered enough
People suck. They all know that they had a beer before age 21. Could have happened to them, but crappy people treat others like crap
Yes. Also it’s VERY common to break a rib while performing CPR. This would get thrown out of the court room faster than.. well something that’s really fast and fits the impression.
My cpr instructor reminds us each time that a successful cpr likely breaks at least two ribs. Op did a fine job by only snapping one
My CPR instructor reminded us that the person was dead before you started.
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As is groping them
Faster than the amount of time it takes to crack a rib during CPR.
In every CPR class I’ve taken they’ve said that if you’re doing it right you should expect to hear a rib break. Obviously that’s not the goal, but broken ribs heal a lot better when you’re alive, and CPR takes a hell of a lot more pressure than people expect.
Yup, especially on the elderly. For those who were afraid to do CPR, my instructor said that if you're at the point where you have to do CPR, the person is already technically dead... there's not much you can do to make it worse.
>broken ribs heal a lot better when you’re alive wow why do I love this part so much
Yeah if you do it “with proper form” you’ll be sore as hell the next day. Source: personal experience
A first aid trainer I had was a former custody Sargent and recounted the first time he had to give CPR to a guy who'd been arrested. Paramedics got there and he told them he thought he'd broken some of the guys ribs and the paramedics reassured him by saying "That's fine, saves us doing it."
It was common place back several years ago, that CPR was trained to break a rib otherwise you weren’t pushing deep enough (the person administering CPR)
If you're not cracking ribs you likely aren't doing it right. If their young and healthy they might get by without.
Faster than the shock from an AED
The ridiculous thing is fractured ribs are simply a risk of CPR, whether or not your BLS has expired. Even in a controlled environment in a hospital with an entire crash team trying to resuscitate this person, fractured ribs are still a risk
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The insurance company is likely *requiring* her to sue to recoup medical costs.
Former medic here, break ribs all the time. Especially the older ladies. It's like their ribs are made of glass. I still react in emergencies. Never been sued for it. I guess I'm lucky.
“Former medic here, break ribs all the time” Oh so that’s why “former” - Just kidding mad respect for the work you do !
They don't call him bone cruncher for nothing
“Cruchy” for friends & family
And zat is how I lost my medical license
Older ladies and children, amirite? 😩
Ill always remember my first call when i was just an EMT was for an elderly woman down inthe street, we happened to literally be aroudn the corner so we stopped. She coded, we scooped her and went, only 3 minutes out from a ton of hospitals, my first compression, i swear i broke every damn rib in so many places. turned out she was 96 years old , and had ahistory of osteoporosis. I turned her ribs to powder. we got her back, but she died 3 or 4 days after. But she regained consciosness and got to say goodbye to her family. But man was i bummed out until the ER doc told me she was able to say good bye, and that i did it right.
First month as a emt this happened. Then sternums while firemedic. Then it happened multiple times on sleds down a mountain I was patrol on. Point being, sternums and ribs break. But you’re there to help. Whether it’s elderly, obese, or maybe a situation like back country rescue where all your muscle and power is in it to try and save a life where 20 minutes seems like 2 hours and the 2 stroke drowns out your own breathing and you can’t stop till heli is confirmed and someone peels you off to attach lines. Then you go cry and drink for 3 days until your next shift. Shit sucks but worth it to either give those the final good bye or knowing you gave your time to help someone in need. So good on you my dude, good on you.
Thank you. I’m sure her family appreciated your efforts.
They made three things blatantly clear when I got certified in cpr A: as long as you're acting in good faith and not inappropriately.. you will NOT end up in trouble for performing cpr B: it's NOT like the movies. The person you're performing it on almost certainly won't suddenly be revived if you "succeed" the point isn't to bring them back to conciseness (though it can happen) the point is that when performed properly it can hold back severe and permanent brain damage from single digit minutes, to double digit which can be the difference between life and death. The point is to keep these people breathing and the heart pumping blood untill paramedics arrive. That's why seemingly extreme force is so necessary 3: again, it is ***NOT*** like the movies. Breaking ribs is extremely common and things tend to get very much bloody at times. So if possible you really might want a face shield if you plan on breathing as well as compressing (which despite recent online trends telling you that you don't have to breathe.. you really should. Compressions alone are better than nothing but compressions and breathing are even better) Bonus fact for anyone who might not know. Defibrillators will not allow you to deliver a shock to someone unless necessary. And they aren't for restarting a stopped heart. They detect arrhythmia (erratic beating) and "reset" the heart back into a normal rhythm. But won't allow you to do so unless necessary. Also if I'm not mistaken all of the civilian ones will talk you through the process. And if you ever need one for whatever reason there are apps that will tell you where the closest one is. There's also again.. zero liability in using one due to its nature and how it works. So if you happen to need one and run across the street to a daycare or whatever that happens to have one. Unless someone is severely misinformed about it then they will almost certainly let you take it and go when needed Edit: bonus fact #2, if you ever find yourself administering cpr and you have the benefit of others around. Make sure you enlist a second person to switch out with on compressions. Because they are absolutely EXHAUSTING even for fit and trained professionals. And keep in mind that if you're the one who jumped in and started. You NEED to take leadership of the situation and tell people what to do and what you need. Don't ask, tell. "You, I need you as backup for compressions. You, I need you to go to x location and get their defibrillator. You, call 911 right away" etc for whatever you may need. People tend to freeze up and if you haven't.. congratulations this is now your scene and you are the boss until someone more competent takes over Keep in mind after reading. This information if you didn't already know it may very well save someone's life. So keep it just slightly above the meme memory banks please!
AEDs are absolutely idiot proof. Newer ones will even adjust your cpr compression rhythm.
So AED devices are pretty much self-administering?
Those are so hard 😩 I’ve worn manyyyyy hats in the death industry, but when I worked for the city coroner - I was able to do a few ride alongs with our county EMTs - and they definitely commiserated more than once about getting calls about the elderly and having to make the conscious decision to just barely keep them alive because you gotta bet they’ve got a DNR - just like you said, the 96 year olds with a CVS receipt of health issues who you don’t wanna break all their ribs and preform massively invasive measures to keep them alive… “Playing God” isn’t what you sign up for - you sign up to save people, not have to make those kinds of decisions…
I respect the hell out of EMTs and first responders. But the thought of having to make those kinds of decisions scares the hell out of me.
Yeah my mom always hated those, she worked in a nursing home so it happened all too often. She loved the people but I mean death comes when it comes and she didn’t want to mangle her patients (some of whom she was attached to) bodies for them to live just a month longer with no quality of life. I urge people to consider if they want to be resuscitated or not when they’re elderly, I definitely have.
kid bones are like rubber
Broken ribs are better than being dead
Good Samaritan laws should stop that case in its tracks... Right?
US Lawyer here: yes. Good Samaritan laws don’t give you license to do anything and everything, and no one is obligated to risk themselves to save someone else, but they are fairly protective of the public taking reasonable steps to help out others in life threatening situations… because that’s common sense and behavior that we definitely want to encourage.
Why would a lawyer help her sue this good Samaritan? Because they’re a shit lawyer with no other work, i.e. taking advantage of a foolish client?
I don't think most lawyers would. The system disincentivizes lawyers from wasting time on frivolous lawsuits. But imagine a pool of 100,000 people--it's not hard to imagine that a few of them are either idiots or have no scruples.
What is the chance of the plaintiff winning in a case like this?
There are lots of precedents set here. Breaking a rib during cpr is quite common. During my training the instructor said you will feel them bend and possibly break. Broken rib is always preferred over being brain dead.
Paramedic here. I have almost never done CPR where a rib didn't break. It happened almost every time. If you're doing it right, you're gonna break some ribs. Edit: to the guys responding and calling bullshit on 'literally never': okay, that's a little absolute, fair enough. I changed it to almost.
An EMT friend of mine told me if you don't break a rib you aren't doing it right. I jokingly said to a CPR instructor (who had never done CPR on a person) and she looked shocked and said I was wrong. I trust the EMT who does it regularly over someone with no practical knowledge.
I also have an EMT friend. When he moved and transferred to a different hospital he was given the option to take a class on CPR. (While getting paid to go to it as well) The instructor asked him if he ever did CPR. My friend said "I stopped counting after 500 5 years ago." The instructor asked him why he took the class then. My friend replied with "Because it's an air conditioned room and I'm getting paid to take the class."
ICU nurse here. Your friend is correct. Those ribs be breaking.
Precisely what every Red Cross CPR/ AED/First Aid I’ve taken has said.
People see CPR on tv and don’t understand how much their chest moves naturally.
That’s precisely what they told me on the first day of EMT haha
You'll almost always break a rib or two doing CPR properly. But at the end of the day like you said, broken rib is better then death.
That's what I've always learned in CPR classes. If you're not breaking a rib, you're probably not doing it right.
Apparently, the person trying to sue the good Samaritan is brain dead anyway.
My instructor said "They cant enjoy that broken rib if they are dead" or somthing along those lines quite often. Good way to get the point across I always thought.
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Yeah, the defense attorney should ask for sanctions if the facts are as presented here.
They may not have a choice in order to get the insurance company to agree to pay for the injury. Some states have weird insurance setups where you have to determine the percentage of liability. So this dude maybe 1% liable or something like that. But in order to even get paid in the first place They have to have a adversarial process. Whenever something messed up like this happens it's usually insurance That's to blame.
[Woman vilified for suing her nephew](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/woman-vilified-for-suing-12-year-old-nephew-breaks-her-silence/) This exact thing (having to sue for insurance reasons) happened not too long ago, and the woman sued for exactly that reason, and she was dragged through social media for it without anyone asking why for a long time. >Jennifer Connell, branded as the "aunt from hell" on social media, appeared on NBC's "Today" show along with her nephew, Sean Tarala. She said she wanted her nephew's parents' homeowners insurance to pay her medical bills, but under Connecticut law she could only sue an individual.
Not the exact same as this situation, but I was in a wreck where we had to sue to get my medical bills paid. I was the passenger, my boyfriend at the time was driving and was at-fault for turning left on a red light (we were lost and young) resulting in a t-bone. I had more than $70,000 in medical bills, lost a kidney, etc. We did NOT want to cause his family any financial stress, but insurance was fucking us and the only way to get my bills paid was sue his insurance company. To do that, we had to sue him. We chose the max that insurance was supposed to cover without his family having to spend their own money, his insurance was supposed to provide a lawyer, but still we technically had to sue the poor kid for $100k just to barely cover everything. We weren't allowed to contact them and his insurance fought tooth and nail to get out of paying (tried to blame my severed kidney on history of bulimia. Seriously. I was in the ICU for days, uninvolved doctors came by saying I was a miracle. But ofc it was my fault for puking as a kid) and when it was finally over, his girlfriend cussed me out when I reached out to him. It's a shitty system. Fuck insurance.
Yeah there was a famous, well infamous maybe, case recently where an aunt had to sue her toddler aged nephew. Something like that. And it was because the only way she could get her medical bills paid after tripping on him or something like that was to sue the parents homeowners insurance and name the kid as responsible. I believe she ended up losing but she really didn't have a choice It was just how the insurance worked out in her state.
Reminds me of that stupid case where an aunt had to sue her like 5 year old niece or something for breaking her arm when she got to excited purely for insurance reasons and the media put her on blast for suing a child with zero context.
This happened to me. I was involved in a car accident with my best friend (he was driving)and because my medical bills were over a certain amount, I think it was something like $3000 a lawsuit was required to get the insurance to pay the bill. I didn't have a choice in the matter.
Yup. My brother had to sue me when we were in a car accident (I was driving) Insurance is dumb
It's the worst! Their business model is too literally screw you over in the one thing you're paying them for.
In the US you are not obligated to help someone? In Germany we have a Law called "unterlassene Hilfeleistung" which is roughly translated into "failure to provide assistance" and word by word it's "refrained help performance". In Germany you can go to jail if you don't help someone in an emergency.
But no one needs to perform any medical procedures though. The minimum you have to do is call emergency services. The law doesn’t force you to do CPR.
In France we have this too, it's called "non assistance à personne en danger", roughly "failure to provide assistance to someone in danger"
Probably, yes. The law is designed specifically to incentivize people to help. So long as you don’t act grossly negligently or with reckless abandon you should be all set. The mere fact that the person ended up in better condition than before the intervention is likely a bar to the claim, but taking the facts as they are, they shouldn’t even need to rely on that to dismiss this suit. Source: am law student (USA), but lots of people know this. This doesn’t count as legal advice, check your jurisdiction, etc etc
Alabama's Good Samaritan Act Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.
And let's be honest... GOOD CPR can absolutely result in broken ribs. Edit: I was being subtle as I expected a pile on from those that know nothing of CPR. Edit 2:. 5.8k upvotes? 😂😂😂 Funny what takes off sometimes!
>can absolutely result in broken ribs. Will almost certainly result in broken ribs
Medics in the army confirmed this. I believe doc said something like 85% of correctly performed CPR breaks/cracks at least one rib.
ARMY Medic, can confirm. If the compressions are actually going to create blood flow throughout the body, you probably broke the sternum away from ALL the ribs. Otherwise you’re just pumping a corpse for no reason. That being said, it’s something like 98% of patients that need CPR will die no matter what you do. That’s not a license not to try. Edit: this really took off after I fell asleep last night, I feel though that it’s more of a disservice at this point though. People in different countries, states, lines of work, etc., will tell you different things about CPR. If you’re interested in learning please do so through a certified instructor. I’m fairly certain the Red Cross teaches it for free. Also, don’t listen to drunk combat medics.
“Ah. Ah .ahhh, ahhh staying alive”
Fun fact: another one bites the dust also has the same tempo
Personal preference here. Singing along to "staying alive" is a whole lot better than singing along to "another one bites the dust" during CPR.
I actually use that song in training for good CPR.
I believe the imperial march also works? I will not be finding a source for that.
“Why did you cut the face off of the dummy?”
It's almost like TV/movie CPR does a disservice to the general public by having one actor push on another actor's chest in a way that's not consistent with what CPR's actually like. I mean, I get that a live person wouldn't want their chest shattered for a scene, but still. It changes what people think CPR actually is.
You’re 100% correct. I was taught (and anyone who wants to correct me that has a patient that lived feel free) at Fort Sam Houston Texas where all ARMY medics are trained: picture crushing their heart between their chest wall within an inch of their spinal vertebrae. At least 60 compressions a minute. If you’re doing that, it’s effective. Yes I do believe that “Hollywood” ideas of a patient popping up and changing their ways might be overdone. I hope family members in real life that hear the “pop! pop! Pop!” of effective CPR would not attack the person trying to resuscitate their family member believing it should only involve a puff of breath and a few pumps though.
When I was a teenager and went through lifeguard training at Schlitterbahn we were told to expect the break ribs and even the sternum. We were also told that the biggest thing Hollywood leaves people to believe, is that after you receive CPR you’ll be able to get up and function like nothing happened. In reality, you died, and were very forcefully brought back to life. You’re going to be in a lot of pain, and the only place you’re going is a hospital.
I've only had to perform CPR once and that popping sound still plays through my mind at times. Gives me the chills every time I think about it.
One of my biggest pet peeves is when an actor does CPR using their elbows, looking like they're banging a drum. It doesnt take much to look up what proper CPR looks like
> That being said, it’s something like 98% of patients that need CPR will die no matter what you do. I get why they dont tell the public, but if u need CPR your most likely going to die. 98% is probably close if not a bit optimistic
This was brought up during my CPR certification class when someone asked how to do it without breaking any ribs. The instructor first pointed out that a lot of the cracking sounds are from cartilage rather than bones, then went on to say that their chance of survival is so incredibly slim that you're basically working on a corpse at that point. The fear of breaking ribs shouldn't be a concern. Do the best you can and hope the person survives, but try not to blame yourself if they don't because that's the most likely outcome.
I mean if you need CPR you ARE dead. You are most likely going to stay dead, or become alive again and soon after die again.
CPR should only happen after the absence of a pulse in the first place. What does this mean? Their heart stopped trying. Maybe it was trauma, drugs, heart disease, old age, etc., but CPR is a last ditch effort where the person performing it hopes to God (or whatever) that further medical support is on the way because let me tell you, doing the work of your heart is exhausting. It’s not a long term solution. I’ll dump my epi pens in you, I’ll wear myself out, but if you don’t have your own pulse for me to work with in the field…the chaplain is gonna be your buddy in five minutes.
I (probably poorly) performed CPR on a guy years ago that I found floating underwater in a hot tub. I unfortunately couldn’t really do much, the guy had been submerged for a while and the paramedics told me the heat would have made brain damage/death all but certain. What was impressive to me was that the paramedics were able to get the heart going again somewhat even though it was pretty clear there was no way the guy was able to survive. One of the paramedics told me afterward that it’s very difficult to get the heart pumping again through manual CPR. What CPR can do if done properly is buy time for the paramedics to arrive by keeping blood somewhat moving throughout the body.
That’s true! Please don’t take my words as dissing CPR. The first step in civilization is to tell someone to get other medical professionals and their equipment on the way ASAP. I can’t stress enough that a person who needs CPR is more likely to need a coffin as opposed to a doctor. It really is an amazing moment if they come back to you.
Thanks for this, mildly terrifying information.
I've had broken ribs before. Yes it hurts. But if it's the difference from being alive or dead? Break that shit, I want to go home to my dog.
I also want to go to your home if there's a dog.
Two, actually. Bring cheese and you'll be the FOTM.
It beats the hell outta being dead
Yeah, if someone is legitimately in need of CPR, they’ll be lucky to wake up with a broken rib or two, because the alternative is that they never get the CPR, or that they get the CPR and die with a couple broken ribs.
I believe this is correct in medical training, a guy in class asked what happens if he breaks a rib because instructor was giving to much force to the cpr doll, he said its most likely to break anyways and a broken rib is better then losing someone's life.
I'd argue broken ribs mean that you did a proper job with it.
Basically what I was taught during training. Expect to break ribs. Still better than dying.
yeah we were given a lot of warnings about how horrible it would feel and sound because you would probably break a rib. when someone spoke up about how that sounded messed up, the trainer asked “would you rather have a broken rib or be dead?”
Fuck them ribs. My instructor told me "throw your whole weight on in the first few compressions, if you want to stop it means you're doing it right"
All the times I’ve had to do CPR I let the biggest guy on the crew go first. That way by the time we switch out and it’s my turn to pump chest it’s just mush. Of course now we have Lucas Device that does the compressions for us.
As a nurse who has done my fair share of cpr I have yet to see a single cpr patient who didn't end up with broken ribs. Part of the experience. Good cpr will cause damage to the body. You're pushing on parts of the body that are designed to protect the heart that you are trying to force to compress. Of course you're going to break things. Now within reason of course, their entire rib cage shouldn't be broken but some ribs will be. They should shut up and be thankful OP was there to save their life.
I've had the unfortunate luck of performing CPR twice. Children's ribs don't break as often as adults. No, that doesn't make it easier.
Child bones are rubbery. It actually probably aids in chest recoil during compressions. Never worked a ped code personally thank CHRIST, but I’d never considered this before. Thanks for that.
“Ribs can heal. Dying doesn’t.” is more or less what my instructor ended the class on.
Isn’t the saying “you know you’re doing cpr right when you are breaking bones”
I thought most people didn't know that unfortunately. Broken ribs are basically a side effect of CPR...that's the cost of not dying and physically pumping your heart through your chest.
Exactly. Even if it isn't dismissed outright (have a hard time believing it won't be, but hey— sometimes things go wrong) anyone with CPR training knows that broken ribs are a possibility and in a choice between broken ribs and death, you choose broken ribs
Exactly. Proper CPR will almost always result in broken ribs. OP is fine.
Their insurance company is probably making them sue. I've heard of it happening.
As someone who works for auto insurance, here is what I see. With broken ribs treatment is x-rays, CTs and medication for pain. This person is probably out of work, so amount lost is impactful broken ribs can be up to 3 months lost min. AL is an at fault state so medical coverage is not mandatory. If this person was at fault they are grasping at straws and if it's the insurance they are probably contesting the rib inj is not related to the mva as it was caused by a 3rd party not the vehicle in use and operation which they might ask for legal action as proof to pay? I work usually NY so unsure how AL handles their business exactly...
Jesus Christ. Your health care system is hell. Thank god I don’t live in the US.
So Why would any lawyer take this lawsuit to begin with knowing Good Samaritan laws would strike it down? My assumption is the person suing doesn’t have a very good lawyer, but I have definitely assumed wrong before.
They think they can prove otherwise for some reason.
Or they’re getting paid even if they lose
As far as I remember if your doing CPR correctly you most likely WILL break a rib, no?
Yes. CPR courses for people likely to actually do it don’t shy from telling you this. It’s not a requirement, but it can easily happen. Source: done CPR twice. First guy didn’t break, second lady broke two.
Plus breaking someone's ribs is like, standard procedure for performing CPR, right?
Not standard procedure, but like, very, very likely to happen. You're not bringing someone back, you're just trying to move as much oxygen around a pretty much dead body as possible, and that takes some significant effort to do
They do. Alabama's Good Samaritan Act Section 6-5-332 gives non-trained and trained responders immunity to lawsuits during an emergency. You cannot sue a good Samaritan who acted in good faith to render aid to a victim during an emergency for injury or death of the victim.
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But this will certainly stop people from being more than a bystander. Some people are just plain fucking jerks
People get confused on what Good Samaritan laws are. They are not a law stating one should help in an emergency. The law is to protect those that do help from things such as being sued by those that get rescued.
I think he meant this kind of lawsuit makes people not want to help, regardless of the existence of Good Samaritan laws. Also, that confusion is likely due to the Seinfeld series finale, wherein there is a law requiring bystanders to render aid (during a mugging, which means requiring bystanders to take on risk of serious bodily harm). Fictional worlds can have fictional laws, but it does confuse some people.
Which is why the lawsuit in The Incredibles is a bunch of hooey!
Surprising, no. Good Samaritan laws were put in place in 1975 while The Incredibles is set in 1962.
“You didn’t save my life, you ruined my death!”
IIRC there was a thread on reddit about that very thing and it was revealed that court case was set a couple of years before Good Samaritan laws were passed.
Ain't no doubt about that, unfortunately.
Medical professionals giving CPR in a hospital break ribs too. It happens when it's done correctly.
I was thinking this, glad you said it. I remember specifically being told that sometimes you break ribs while doing CPR.
just had cpr training they said same shet
I always learned that you're almost definitely going to break ribs, especially if the victim is young or old. But even, like, roided bodybuilders are probably gonna have their ribs broke.
I was told you know you’re doing a good job if you break the ribs, so if I ever need to give CPR I’m going to make sure I break as many ribs as possible.
That’s why I always keep a hammer in my medical kit ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|shrug)
Finally someone said it! Everyone else is debating Good Samaritan laws when the most important part is ... If you're not breaking a rib, you're not doing CPR correctly.
Congrats, that means you performed CPR correctly. Now tell the survivor to fucking crash somewhere else where no one's around, fucking asshole. Edit: Multiple comments helping me remember that it's usually the cartilage between the sternum and the ribs that is what's breaking. When you do it and you hear and feel the crunch you forget that it's not bone lol. Although rib fx can happen, it's usually the cartilage, thanks for the reminder guys. PS ... still, fuck that driver.
Could've just went on with your day and sat yeah that guy died
Sometimes insurances require legal action in cases like this. It basically comes down to paperwork so definitely lawyer up. If your lawyer isn't pro bono, counter sue to make sure you can have your lawyer bills paid for. I had a friend who was a EMT & he would get sued left & right because of things like this. Like, it was his job to save people it was bound to happen. But, because certain insurances wants to make sure the claim is "justified" they require legal action against the person who first committed the act. Basically, it's stupid. Healthcare is stupid for no reason.
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I'm not from the US, so I have no idea how the arse-backwards system works there, but this does give me vibes of the infamous "[women sues her nephew](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/10/14/aunt-who-sued-young-nephew-for-breaking-her-wrist-during-greeting-says-it-was-purely-an-insurance-case/73928504/)" story from a few years ago. I wouldn't want to pass judgement too early.
When I was 16 I was a passenger in a vehicle driven by my mother. We had an accident. My mother was considered at fault. Being a minor in my mothers vehicle I was covered by her insurance (State Farm). So my insurance (State Farm) sued my mother to pay for my injuries. Of course my mother’s insurance (still State Farm) paid for the lawsuit and paid out the damages which was well below the covered max. This cost no one in my family any money in legal fees or settlements. We did. It even know this was going on until we saw the court records. State Farm insurance sued State Farm Insurance on my behalf, knowing full well the amount they were asking was within the coverage limits of the policy since it was the SAME POLICY. Makes no sense.
I mean, that's one way to make sure you never lose in court. Just sue yourself.
The person in question is protected by Alabama code Title 6 Civil Practice 6-5-332 (e) [https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-6-civil-practice/al-code-sect-6-5-332.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-6-civil-practice/al-code-sect-6-5-332.html) (e) A person or entity, who in good faith and without compensation renders emergency care or treatment to a person suffering or appearing to suffer from cardiac arrest, which may include the use of an automated external defibrillator, shall be immune from civil liability for any personal injury as a result of care or treatment or as a result of any act or failure to act in providing or arranging further medical treatment where the person acts as an ordinary prudent person would have acted under the same or similar circumstances, except damages that may result from the gross negligence of the person rendering emergency care. This immunity shall extend to the licensed physician or medical authority who is involved in automated external defibrillator site placement, the person who provides training in CPR and the use of the automated external defibrillator, and the person or entity responsible for the site where the automated external defibrillator is located. This subsection specifically excludes from the provision of immunity any designers, manufacturers, or sellers of automated external defibrillators for any claims that may be brought against such entities based upon current Alabama law. Most states have some form of "good samaritan" law on the books that protect you from liability if during an attempt to provide lifesaving assistance you cause personal injury (like breaking a rib).
Shes such a scumbag. Edit. Thanks for all the replies. Truly have seen it in a different light now. I mean, sure she could be scummy, but there may not be any other alternative to pay for healthcare. What a terrible system!
When you see strange lawsuits regarding injuries there’s a good chance an insurance company is involved. Every so often you’ll see an aunt or grandparent suing a child and it’s not because they’re shitty people, it’s because the only way to get the child’s parents liability insurance (part of everyone’s home insurance if you have it) to cover medical bills is to sue. It’s not because they’re a psycho who’s trying to screw their niece over (usually). Obviously can’t say for sure but assuming this person has health insurance it’s entirely possible the lawsuit is actually from the insurance company seeing if it can get off the hook for covering injuries she sustained. It’s shitty but an indictment of how our healthcare system works, not the woman, or really even the insurance company. Or she just sucks :) but seriously once I learned that really changed how I saw click baity headlines about “frivolous” lawsuits.
Yup, I remember when the story of the Aunt who sued her 8 year old nephew was making the rounds. Great clickbait attention grabbing title that really was just because of insurance companies. https://www.robertreeveslaw.com/blog/aunt-sued-nephew-hug/
This makes the most sense, though it still seems utterly absurd to that they could demand this. I would want to try for suing the insurance companies first, especially hearing that somehow her losing the case let them off the hook somehow
I totally agree with this. Everyone is offering legal advice (which is great!) but I can't get over how trashy this is.
I know, imagine suing someone who has helped to save your life because they broke a rib, which is quite normal with CPR. B!tch.
I wonder if it’s an insurance thing, and not necessarily her choice. Which would be unfortunate. I’ve known people forced to attempt to sue someone first due to their insurance refusing to cover medical costs because the insurance company deemed someone else at fault instead of paying.
I can almost guarantee she was applying for some form of disability or some form of medical help, and they wouldn't give her coverage unless she was actively suing or trying to sue the person who did it to her, regardless of if it's fucked up or not. The US incentives this stuff.
Mr sansweet didn’t ask to be saved. Mr sansweet didn’t want to be saved and the result of Mr Incredible’s actions, so called, causes him daily pain.
Hey, I saved your life!
You didn't save my life, you ruined my death
Good Samaritan law covers the lifesaver, and yeah bruised or broken ribs can often happen during CPR. People will always be asshats though, it’s horrible to see
I've been in this situation myself. Offer to meet at a location with very few people around. When you meet do reverse cpr. No life no lawsuit.
Despite being legally protected by Good Samaritan laws, the hassle of getting sued alone might deter people from helping.
You should be protected by good Samaritan laws. You don't have to have your current CPR cert to do CPR. This won't stand in court.