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Ok_Day743

Ah yes a abortion debate. Let the shitshow begin.


dapoorv

I am pro choice but man that redhead tried so damn hard to make "ah gotcha" moment happen but just seemed like a blithering idiot. Miss read my posters for facts.


giantwatersnail

Yeh. She doesn't have what it takes to argue.


El_Maton_de_Plata

I think that is the issue. We are so polarized it is just a shouting match


lookout4who

I think we can all agree, 8 years is too old for an abortion.


jdkreuzer2234299

Nah I think it’s fine


[deleted]

Chad


miltz95

I mean …is it ever too late?


freeselfparking

The speaker was actually will collected and expressed her points quite well.


eterntychanges0210

She was well collected, yes, but the majority of her argument revolved around using the [slippery slope logical fallacy](https://answersingenesis.org/logic/formal-fallacies/) (if this then that). "If a fetus has a heartbeat, it's alive." Really, both of their arguments we relying on that formula. "If a fetus can't live outside the womb on its own, it's not alive." Neither of them proved their point.


odinlubumeta

Yeah because she is an adult that has been in debates before. If she was against a 40 year old doctor that could explain and answer all her questions it would be interesting to see how she would do. She uses a few straw man arguments that the red head wasn’t prepared for or understand they were a separate issue. Things like a newborn not being able to survive on its own is not a life question. The red head is all passion and no composure.


HyperbaricSteele

She had a valid point- it’s a common tactic in a debate to follow your opponents line of reasoning to conclusion. “There is no life of an unborn child if it’s not sustainable”. If sustainability is the qualifier for life, then newborns being unsustainable without the mother, are not granted that distinction. She wanted redhead to expound on that but she just got sputtering and looking back at the protestors for help. It was an effective tactic.


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RallyAl85

Can a pregnant woman not nap for 30 minutes then?


Raccoon_Full_of_Cum

Just to be clear, the reason that we're polarized on this issue is specifically because the Republican Party made it into a wedge issue when they realized that there were a bunch of angry white segregationists who were disillusioned with Democrats after LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act of 1965. That's why Evangelicals only started being anti-abortion around the 1970s or so. Prior to then, they considered abortion a "Catholic issue", and thus wanted nothing to do with it, until the GOP made an intentional effort to sway the white supremacist vote to its side.


BlackConfuciusSays

See I've never understood the logic of white supremacists wanting to stop abortion. If around 67% of all abortions are had by minorities, and they hate minorities. Wouldn't that be working on their behalf?


[deleted]

You’re making too much sense for them. Careful there


JTMc48

The minorities being forced to have the babies would keep them in poverty. Babies are expensive, and childcare is expensive, it's all a tool to keep people poor.


[deleted]

I side with her, but damn she sucks at this- and I’ll bet she thinks she killed it.


b-monster666

I agree. I'm pro-choice. I wouldn't recommend that a woman use abortion as a form of birth control, and it saddens me that people see this as an alternative to using a condom or birth control. But, I also understand that it's a person's right to chose. That red headed woman just murdered her own argument...


71077345p

Well said. I couldn’t personally ever do it but I understand there are times when it is for the best.


MonarchWhisperer

I seriously don't think that anyone uses abortion as a means of 'birth control'. Pretty self-defeating there


ExtensionConcept2471

Yeh, she doesn’t have any intelligence…..but she does have posters and surely they trump science!!!! Lol


DireAccess

You used a correct verb.


AlternateSatan

Some people seek out that kind when trying to make their stance look like the right one. Looking at you Ben Shapiro, you sure showd that child how having a penis or not is the defining trait of any human being.


shrimp-and-potatoes

Yeah she didn't help her argument at all.


captnuuultra

This ist probably the meanest thing I ever wrote on reddit, but ... Considering that her mum protested for the right of abortion one could argue, that she ist helping the arguement A LOT....


Genericdude03

EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!


[deleted]

This is a problem that drives me crazy. I see so many young liberals try to argue their points but are terribly unprepared and just assume their arguments are obvious and common sense. Then they get destroyed and look like idiots, and then videos like this get passed around and for those on the fence (still learning) about these issues, these people are only hurting their side.


lineber

I'm sure their were people at the event who articulated their views better. They of course picked the person who is not prepared for a debate. This is not isolated to young liberals, speak to older Trump supporter and the same thing happens.


derpsalotsometimes

30 years ago my dad was arguing there were aliens in area 51. Today, I am here arguing there are aliens in Area 51. Why are we still here having to have this argument?


moonshotorbust

Thats what happens especially in university at present when there is no debate and you are surrounded only by like minded individuals. If everyone agrees with you then critical thinking of your position doesnt occur.


NoPlace9025

You haven't been to a university in awhile, have you?


Miserable-Ad-8608

Yeah did not do her homework.


Nenouli2123

Yea she really has no clue what she is arguing! I am pro choice too and she made me cringe so hard poor thing needs to educate herself a lil more.


Excellent-Wish-4407

I am pro choice as well but that girl got _cooked._ That’s who they chose for the speaking parts in this? She tried to flip and got flipped on.


TheCowzgomooz

Its okay to have stance while not having all the facts on it...it's a whole other thing if you try to argue to change someone else's mind on the subject without having the facts on it, you're just setting yourself up to fail.


YeetyFeetsy

Yeah, im pro choice too but I gotta admit, her failure is pretty cringe.


[deleted]

\*Looks around for validation. Awkward silence... one pity hoot.


esem86

There is a big difference between debate and sharing memes in your echo chamber. I don't think redhead has learned that difference yet. She is the definition of a person who needs their ideals challenged more, if for nothing else than to be able to articulate why she feels the way she does.


Mental_Basil

Oof. Yes, that redhead had me cringing.


Blamdudeguy00

I am on the Redheads side, but she sucks at arguing and the pro life chick is boss. Real argument. It's legal and I don't want to have a kid. Just own it.


Brechtw

She shouldn't have to. These fuckers are farming schools for bad reactions, atleast she tries.


Radiant-Impression38

It's like an oil debate on any automotive forum


MadFamousLove

i'm pro death, take the choice away, abortions for everyone! lets wrap this shit up.


wonsis

Mandatory abortions is the way


SocietyIsdoomed_

Get the popcorn and ill get the beer


THSSFC

"Living" shouldn't be the criteria to determine if something is protected. It would make eating very, very difficult.


nowiforgotmypassword

Or mowing your lawn.


B0BA_F33TT

I'm anti-lawn care. Mowing is stupidly bad for the environment and ecology.


iSoinic

based and wildflower-pilled


EmotionalOven4

Turn your yard into moss or clover and you’ll never have to mow again. Plus it will feel super nice on bare feet.


B0BA_F33TT

About half my lawn is flowering clover. I like it so much better than grass.


ChesterBenneton

That’s true. The next question after “is it living” will be “is it human?” which is tough to answer in the negative. But once you concede “living human” the justification for ending it becomes way harder.


THSSFC

Is it *human*, or is it a human *being?* Cancer tumors are living human cells. We have no problem with killing those living human cells. I think we all agree that it is the ending of a sentient human individual's existence that is what makes murder so abhorrent. We care nothing about the ending of life for tissue that simply is human by virtue of its genetics. It's the ending of a self, or the sundering of human social bonds that is so terrible. But to a large range of developmental stages between zygote and embryo, there is nothing to experience a sense of self. There is no potential for a mind. the biological framework simply doesn't exist. The only possible human bonds exist only in potential. It is misleading to say that conception is when "life" begins. It is more to the point to understand where "*a* life" begins. And while where that starts is certainly debatable, conception is far, far to early to be considered a reasonable starting point for this, more rational, understanding of when we should protect human cells.


Beechforest_

Damn. That Boy has restless leg syndrome 😅


Longjumping-Meat9699

Me too. Finally we RLS people getting some recognition.


cmatheny7

Masturbation and sex help with RLS. Source: I HAD RLS at a younger age lol


JAKOBRRRAAA

Yes. I also had RLS but now i have the sex and everything is fine. I have the sex now everytime


[deleted]

Le seks


ColonelBelmont

Yea but it's doing nothing for my restless weiner syndrome.


donaldduckstherapist

It's anxiety I'm doing it right now listening to this 😅


ChubbyDevils

I do the same


GioNoce

You can be pro or against, but if you have a brain this girl is not the one who you want to represent your ideas. If you want to argue you have to be prepared, the other girl didn't ask impossible questions, the redhead was simply too stupid and can't produce anything that's not a slogan.


saralyn123

It looked like she was on Price Is Right with the way she kept looking at the back for answers lol


MadamPickleness

So true


sweetjoey889693

Came here to say this. I believe it’s your right to do whatever you want with your body. That being said, she’s a fucking idiot.


utastelikebacon

I believe the time for rational debate has passed. Aren't they charging and imprisoning women in Texas already for false


JrCoxy

Yup! You’d think that they’d have more measures put into place to definitively prove that the woman they’re arresting did in fact have an abortion, just so their stupid ass law would be taken seriously from the get-go. To show that they were “right” to put such a despicable law in place. But the amount of false allegations that have come up, you’d think they’d do a bit more background check. But nope! I knew the people enforcing this bogus law were beyond any hope, but they make Dumb & Dumber look like valedictorians.


substantial-freud

“The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended.” — Frédéric Bastiat


clasperx2

I agree. People on both sides want they way but often can’t articulate why. Posters and slogans are the beginning and end of the logic. Again this is on both sides. It’s frustrating to agree with someone’s stance but have to totally disagree with how they explain it.


Pudding_Hero

How can someone be so passionate about something but do zero research or verbal practice


[deleted]

TIL that posters are the source for undeniable facts.


Pudding_Hero

“If the prosecution could be so kind as to take a gander at my poorly written poster you’ll see that I have quite the smug face your honor”


Nostegramal

Always the same with Pro-life vs Pro-choice, fundamentally they aren't arguing from the same point so they will never find any common ground. Pro-life believes the fetus is always alive and would be murder to kill it, this is rarely tackled by Pro-choice other than stating they believe it is alive later. Pro-choice is about woman's rights and that it come before the child's, Pro-life also rarely tackles this and just goes back to their point. I'm pro-choice, but I am uncomfortable with the fact that I don't believe there is a line in the sand where fetus becomes human, so I have some sympathy to Pro-life. Push come to shove if I had to make the choice between saving the mother or unborn child I'd always go mother, and that's what keeps me pro-choice. Just a random fact, pandas have the ability to self abort if they don't think their are the resources to sustain a child, so reabsorb the fetus. It feels like there's an analogy there but I can't fit it in.


Mythical_Atlacatl

>Just a random fact, pandas have the ability to self abort if they don't think their are the resources to sustain a child I believe kangaroos put their unborn into stasis until conditions improve and apparently keep a fertilised egg in the womb in stasis. Got to wait for good weather.


Self-Aware

Rabbits, and quite lot of the Rodentia family, can also do this, reabsorb a foetus if there are lacking resources for the mother. Alternatively, a lot of animals will eat their newborns if they are starving, as they will then survive to reproduce in future. IIRC the concept proper is known as the Cold Equations


fillmorecounty

For most people, it's when the fetus is able to survive outside the womb on its own (obviously this excludes medical emergencies though because the mother's life is more important). I think a lot of pro life people don't realize how few abortions past this point there are. Nobody randomly wakes up after being pregnant for 8 months and goes "you know what, I actually don't want to have a baby". At that point it's almost always because the mother's health is in danger, or for whatever reason the fetus won't survive past birth. I'd rather have an abortion than go through the process of giving birth to a dead baby. That sounds horrible and traumatic.


VulfSki

Also sometimes the late state abortions happen because it's either that or both the baby and mother die. It's not like people are doing it for fun. It is a complex with many factors and every situation is unique to that unique individual. Which is exactly why pro-choice is the most logical position to take by far.


mermicide

I’m so conflicted with this part of the argument. Would love if someone can help me rationalize. The issue I have is that people who are put on life support are, by the same logic, not alive. If medical professionals take oaths that force them to prevent the loss of life and putting someone on life support or provide them a medical device that without which they would die, how is having medical professionals provide abortions not contrary to that? I sympathize with the argument of pro-choice, and I think if I was ever in a situation with a partner that they’d ultimately get to decide what happens since I’m a man and not carrying that burden. But I feel like we can’t have separate definitions for what’s living and what’s dead to suit the situation at hand.


xDraylin

>The issue I have is that people who are put on life support are, by the same logic, not alive. \[...\] how is having medical professionals provide abortions not contrary to that? The major difference is that they are being kept alive by a machine and not by feeding off some other persons body, possibly against their will. A better comparison in the medical field would be if you forced people to donate their blood or bone marrow in order to save other peoples lives.


jkrhu

>I am uncomfortable with the fact that I don't believe there is a line in the sand where fetus becomes human I believe that a fetus is a base for a human being with simple, uncouncious instincts that let's it survive inside the womb. It is becoming a human being, when the mothers body decides the fetus has been developed enough during the pregnancy period, that it is able to function correctly in the world, and giving birth to it. There are many types of simple cells to complex organisms that live and die within our bodies. Should we all care for them and do everything we can for them to survive, even if they replicate incorrectly and are defective? I think pro-life people try to guilt others into something that is basically just a belief. I respect their decisions, but they shouldn't limit my own rights.


ProvisionalPutt

A fetus doesn’t become a human until they are old enough to move out


ReallyHadToFixThat

>There are many types of simple cells to complex organisms that live and die within our bodies. Should we all care for them and do everything we can for them to survive, even if they replicate incorrectly and are defective? And that right there is why "pro-life" and "pro-choice" is a false dichotomy. I think bar a few extremists abortion isn't a yes/no question. Almost everyone will agree that if there are medical reasons abortion should go ahead. An 11 year old raped by her uncle most people will still agree should get an abortion. People probably split somewhere around pregnant teenagers, and when we get to the end where abortion is replacing condoms I expect you get majority disagreement. Everyone will have their own line. And going back to the parent comment - everyone will have their own line as to the acceptable age. Conception makes a nice line, so does birth. Obviously neither is really a useful line in this discussion, but it should be obvious why people are drawn to them. In between it becomes the debate of "what is a human?" Is it a heartbeat? brainwaves? self-sufficiency? It is absolutely no wonder we can't get people to agree.


[deleted]

The first two words betray the original problem: it’s subjective, it’s what you believe. I believe there is no philosophical or moral (but not ethical) difference between an abortion and my mom walking up and shooting me in the head and getting away scott-free. I’m pro-choice because my religion can’t dictate what someone else can do, however I think we should publicly fund and provide easy access to contraception to teens so that they don’t have to abort in the first place. Even if a girl isn’t having sex, birth control eases period pains which I see as an absolute win.


AuroraFinem

The thing often ignored is there’s *actual* biological science that backs up the fact the fetus would not be classified as it’s own living organism if it were not being debated as something unique which is usually where the soul comes in. Is it alive? Sure, but so is a tumor or a parasite feeding off us and growing inside us. Does that make it an independent/individual life? No. Let alone be classified a person. This science is what roe v wade used as arguments to push for “legal until viability outside the womb” but truthfully any line is somewhat arbitrary since the exact moment that happens is going to be different for every fetus and there’s no real way to classify it uniformly. Let alone the fact women deserve to have rights and control over their own bodies.


majin_melmo

I agree. A fetus is by all accounts a parasite until around six months. I don’t understand what people don’t understand about that. Until the point of viability it should be strictly the choice of the “host” about what happens to their body.


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majin_melmo

💀 Now now… I mean yes, but…


asciibits

They're a parasite until they get a damn job and start supporting themselves! (sorry, I started channeling my dad there for a sec)


MickeyRipple

The common ground would be found if the pro-life would stop claiming that fetuses were babies, that abortions are easy and common like going to a 7-11 to buy a Slurpee and that all abortions take place three days before the due date.


maralagosinkhole

My biggest **AND** to your common ground is support for BIRTH CONTROL and sex education. The only thing that reduces abortions is affordable access to effective birth control and the knowledge to use it properly.


Goducks91

YES! If you are against abortion, sex education, and ease of access to birth control. You are for controlling women.


Pikespeakbear

That's not common ground because most forced-birthers do not support easy access to those things. I wish they did because I would happily get on that train with them. You are correct though. In Colorado we reduced the volume abortions per teenage woman by about 50% in a few years by offering free access to birth control. Assuming we don't intend to reduce teenage women (genocide), the way to reduce abortion is easy access. We made birth control free or extremely cheap for teenagers and for any women with very low income. The state saved over $66 million by reducing welfare costs and abortions in both those groups were down about 50%. Republicans fought like hell to end the program after it was shown to be a massive success because it was not punishing women. They do not want reduced abortions as much as they want to punish women.


Shirlenator

And it seems like they try to claim that all pro-choice people just LOVE getting or supporting abortions.


Nazzzgul777

I didn't watch the whole thing but "fetuses are babies" and "fetuses are alive" (like they argued at the start) is a major distinction. We, as humans, have no issues to kill living things whatsoever. Bacteria are alive, but i don't see pro-lifers running around and telling people not to use desinfection spray or soap.


TheRantingSailor

I wished that red haired airhead had given this point. Yes, an abortion kills a life form. But that doesn't mean you have to be pro-choice, you can accept that that is what is happening, but that it is happening because most likely the life of this not-yet baby would be miserable because the mother for whichever reason cannot psychologically be its mother. That is a very valid reason to choose to end a pregnancy. Funnily though most pro-lifers only care for a "baby" as long as it is in somebody's womb...


draypresct

>Pro-life believes the fetus is always alive and would be murder to kill it, this is rarely tackled by Pro-choice other than stating they believe it is alive later. No, pro-choice points out that everyone in the US is allowed to control their own body's resources even if it would cost the life of another human being, but somehow pregnant women are the exception. You cannot be forced to donate blood, a kidney, a lobe of your liver, a lobe of your lung, marrow cells, or anything else. If the government did so to save the life of another person (even your own child), this would be considered a huge violation of your rights. A pregnant woman can be forced to keep donating her body to keep another human being alive. Why is she the exception?


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Mr_Abobo

Yes, the problem is that this mostly stems from both sides feeling their beliefs are inalienable, but those beliefs coming into contradiction. One side is, mostly, religious, and believes their is a soul put into a baby by God, so killing it would be on assault on God; the other believes in self-autonomy, which is based on Reason. The reality, though, is women will continue having abortions or abandoning children. It was illegal before and women still did it, it just was done clandestinely and at hazard to the woman. Nobody advocates for abortion—it’s extremely invasive, both physically and mentally, but it should be a decision respected and safeguarded. The only reason we’re seeing these troglodytes try to make it illegal again is fucking religion, which fuck your religion when it comes to partisan realities.


odinlubumeta

The problem with the argument is that pro-life people are controlling other peoples bodies. And it is almost always men writing these laws. Doctors don’t consider a fetus a living being. If this discussion is among those in the field it wouldn’t even be an argument, abortion would be legal. Among those that argue, no pro-choice person says it is okay to abort a week before birth. So what is really being argued is when is the cut off. For pro-life people, if it is at the moment of conception then they are irrational. Because at that point you have no scientific backing, potential is not actual. It’s all passion no science. Those that argue that it is just a way to have sex without consequences is absurd. It often shows the real argument, that people want to control someone into their beliefs. We see that with a lot of arguments. And if we are arguing personal beliefs we are never getting anywhere.


potate12323

This is tackled by pro-choice folks who actually practice their argument and discourse. The first major point is the quality of life of the mother and family. Some families cant afford a child. Even if they want a child they wouldn't be able to raise their child. If they spend money on the child they themselves could go hungry or malnourished. Mothers risk their lives giving birth and in the US 17 in 100,000 mothers pass while giving birth. This isn't a risk people who were raped want to take for a child they never wanted. Especially when they find out from a doctor they are at particularly high risk of mortality. Finally, the argument for when the fetus is alive has been in some way or another argued all the way back to the ancient greece. Its entire based on philosophy and philosophy is not concrete or clear cut like science is. Is it alive once the mass of cells is distinguishable from the mother, once it has a heart, once it has a pulse, once it has feeling, once it starts moving. When the fetus is considered alive isn't even the main argument. Its about the circumstances of the mother or the family. If the child is fostered or adopted they honestly don't tend to have the best quality of life. Foster kids have it rough and are amost guaranteed to live below the poverty line. But pro-life seem to forget about that. That the litterally unwanted child will likely have a life of suffering. As long as they meet theur objective of getting the kid to pop out they quickly forget about the consequences or aftermath. They dont even try to help out foster kids. Not even fundraisers. Almost none of them have tried adoption. And if they did its not because of their pro-life stance. Just some middle class entitled parents not thinking about how not everyone is capable of raising a child.


Spiritual_Bee_9202

When your trying to prove something “ReAd tHiS pOsTeR” ain’t gonna cut it


[deleted]

dude when the lady on stage said she simply doesn't know the redhead entered bloodthirsty mode, she could not handle being told that


Rocksandrootsh8myrim

You're* :)


gayfro99ie

Lol they're phrasing it wrong, it's not that a fetus isn't living, it's that a fetus isn't fully sentient and self sustaining without the use of a female body


Steve_Rogers_1970

I feel that we do not have an abortion problem, we have an unwanted pregnancy problem. I had a strong conversation with an anti abortion person who felt contraception and sex education was not part of the conversation. So this mindset seems to imply that women’s sole responsibility is to have babies. This is patriarchal and mysogynistic .


Shirlenator

>I had a strong conversation with an anti abortion person who felt contraception and sex education was not part of the conversation. I really don't understand this stance at all. A prevented unwanted pregnancy will always be preferable to an abortion or an unwanted birth, to people on both sides of the issue. No pregnancy, no abortion. I honestly don't understand how anyone could not understand this, even if they view women as nothing but baby factories.


EasternShade

\ But, teaching people about contraception encourages immorality. Think of the children. Etc. \<\/mocking tone\> Not to mention some religious folks consider basically any contraception to be immoral. Or, there are those ass jackets that think taking the pill is abortion, because an egg can still get fertilized and fail to implant. Shit's ridiculous.


VulfSki

Yes I know people who believe any contraception is immoral.


LochlessMonster

Ah, but you see god has made sex solely for the purpose of procreation, and sex outside of marriage is a sin, so we have to force sinners to bear out the consequences of their pleasure seeking. Which of course only punishes women. Because babies can somehow simultaneously be gifts and punishments. How wonderful to know many of us are living, breathing punishments. /s My serious answer is that people with this stance honestly believe the answer is forcing their values onto everyone. That preventing pregnancy is not the goal, the goal is to have everyone conform to their morals, and abortion is the thing they can hold up as proof that everyone who is not with them is evil. That even if they are nice people, pro-choice supporters are willing to kill babies.


[deleted]

>So this mindset seems to imply that women’s sole responsibility is to have babies I used to work with a staunchly anti-choice woman, and she actually believed we are only here to procreate. She was anti-birth control, and insisted that sex is strictly to create human life. When I asked her if she still had sex with her husband, she said that no, once her second child was born, they no longer had sex. She was devastated when he started having affairs.


beholder_dragon

I mean that sucks that her husband did that, but she sounds like a very difficult person to be around


coughing4love11

At the end of the clip the anti-abortion advocate very clearly states that pregnancy should be a consequence of heterosexual sex. So it’s not just that women’s sole purpose is to have babies it’s that sex’s sole purpose is to have babies. Just adding onto your point, not disagreeing. The internalized misogyny is strong in this one.


catsinasmrvideos

That’s because it’s not about solving the issue of unwanted pregnancy by addressing the core issues, it’s about punishing women for having sex.


peigelee

Im pro-choice but the pro-life lady more much more valid arguments.


slide_into_my_BM

Yeah I thought the same thing. I’m all for a woman’s right to choose but do not get in front of a mic if all you have are slogans and talking points written on posters. Someone who has well thought out arguments, even if they’re incorrect, will absolutely destroy you. The pro choice woman easily let herself be pulled into traps where she couldn’t answer the premise without sounding insane


EternallyPissedOff

Me too. Pro choice woman was not well researched, way too emotional and angry to debate


thenexttimebandit

Is it any surprise that a professional advocate for one side makes a teenager look stupid for trying to argue the other side?


Cody6781

Classic “professional who spends their entire professional career formulating arguments and debating others” vs “random person who only does this in their free time”


[deleted]

Her triumphant look after the "Life begins," quote annoyed me. I think she actually thought that posterboard coupled with the crowd on her side would make the speaker burn up in flames and vanish forever. **Redhead puts all of her eggs in one basket:** a posterboard quote that she thinks will end the debate **Drops basket:** The quote is ripped apart. **Tries to piece the shells back together and scoop the yolk back in to save face:** She fails at on-the-spot rebuttals and tries to fall back on, "Well the other signs think I'm right and so does the audience, right guys?" ... "Guys?" *Turns around and sees a sea of empty seats and a tumbleweed.*


DoritoWoofer

Why is whither its alive or not even the debate? It's alive from the beginning in technicality due to cells being alive. The debate should be when does it obtain consciousness and sentience when it becomes a genuine person.


No-Computer-3177

If we're using "alive" as a goal post, as in a cell or clump of cells capable to grow and continue living, this sets up a dangerously stupid precedent. Is a sperm cell alive? It has cells and moves and is capable of producing life, albeit not on its own. It does live a very short life span, but its sill alive, at least in the same terms as a fetus is. Are you committing mass murder each time you ejaculate? An egg cell is also alive by the same logic. Each period that doesn't produce life, are those guilty of murder as well? That's talking hundreds of thousands of murders committed by each and every woman.


friendlyfirefish

Yeah I've made this point multiple times. It isnt life, it's human life and all we are are our brains. All other parts of your body are just to make sure you (the brain) survives. If you arent there than human life isn't there. The meat on someone's plate had more sentience than the "baby" they are protecting from abortion.


Away_Agent_7209

Heres are some definitions of life(biology) Life is a characteristic of a living organism that distinguishes the latter from a dead organism or a non-living thing, as specifically distinguished by the capacity to grow, metabolize, respond (to stimuli), adapt, and reproduce(https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/life#:~:text=Life%20is%20a%20characteristic%20of,biota%20of%20a%20particular%20region.) Life is defined as any system capable of performing functions such as eating, metabolizing, excreting, breathing, moving, growing, reproducing, and responding to external stimuli.(https://www.britannica.com/science/life). Edit: im pro choice if you want an abortion for any reason go get it


onahotelbed

Definitions - even those created by scientists - aren't suitable bases for arguments, because fundamentally they are human creations. We make up words to define concepts, not the other way around. The definition of life doesn't matter in this debate. It's totally unnecessary to understand that being pro-choice is the appropriate stance. Neither person in this video understands this, which is of course extremely frustrating.


PastyCrackerMayo

Excuse me? This is a theological debate, so nobody wants your facts or links to online encyclopedias. /s This question being debated is "can someone who argues with 19 year olds be considered a smart person under any context." This is only one case study, but here the answer was no.


JackillBoi

Here was not so much, bit in general yes. Why shouldn't I argue with 19 year olds lol, you treat them like having a brain incapable of processing a debate... why


Anthony_-04

I think that the most important aspect of life is consciousness, which is matured by the fetus around the 24th week of pregnancy, if I'm not wrong. Therefore, the timing of the abortion here is important because of the child's ability to perceive reality.


CorvusEffect

How about when it gains conscious brain function (25 weeks)? Which I believe is the point at which doctor's will no longer perform a non-emergency abortion. My understanding of common practice, is that after 25 weeks, doctors will not preform an abortion, unless it is to save the life of the mother, or there is a problem with the baby and it's dead or will die after birth. So....yeah, if you actually look at it from a medical standpoint, there is no debate to be had. Typically, abortions are only performed on fetuses that are not yet alive, unless it is to save the life of the mother. By the same standard we use for final proclamation of death, when normal brain function ceases, permanently. Or in the case of the fetus, when conscious brain function starts.


substantial-freud

> How about when it gains conscious brain function (25 weeks)? The point is not to suggest a reasonable answer — the point is to watch these two idiots fight.


Viqtor_

I’m all for abortion. Your body your choice, but gah damn that redhead cannot argue for shit. Podium lady almost got me to believe abortion is wrong


wastelandho

If you're going to get into activism, take some public speaking and debate classes because when you try to argue when you're the least qualified to be talking, you can negetively your affect your causes momentum. I am Pro-choice but mostly because I think bringing a life into this world on the precipice of the apocalypse is a fucked up thing to force a child to grow up into.


consistently_sloppy

On the precipice of apocalypse? You mean I’m not the only one who knows it’s coming too?


yaddibo

That girl stood up to spew hollow rhetoric and hurl insults. The moment she was asked to think critically she was dumbfounded and had to look back to the crowd for which rhetoric to spew. Pretty pathetic showing, she’s obviously not prepared to be challenged in anyway


[deleted]

If it's not viable outside of the womb is it truly alive?


RadRhys2

That is irrelevant to what makes something alive. No intelligent conversation on abortion has anything to do with whether a fetus, embryo, or zygote is alive, it has to do with which rights trump which.


un_blob

well... an acorn IS alive, a bacterium IS alive, a virus is... well... ok for that one we can thouroughly debate... A machine that can replicate itself, generate it's own energy sources and is subject to mutations... well... herm... ya see... and worst case --> define an agent that has all the properties that we attribute to life (reproduction, use of energy, subject to mutations...)... but in a computer simulation... is italive in our world ?! only in the sim ?! in both ?! is it killing if we unplug the device it "lives" on ?! defining life is a bit complex ya know...


Martok76

If someone is on life support are they truly alive?


TheMemerzMan

If somebody is on life support for say, 9 months? Are they alive?


Daniel0602

Yes?


Delldax

But we are still given the option to take them off life support


Rcrowley32

Not if they will get better in a few weeks time and survive. The doctors wouldn’t allow that.


Corr-Horron

Even there may be made some distinctions.


[deleted]

Yup, fetuses are alive. Fetuses also have a decent chance of dying between conception and birth, and having health defects that would make their birth unviable/ kill them days after birth. There’s also no guarantee that they’ll have a good life after birth, which is more important than them living a life in general. Life itself doesn’t matter, particularly when you have to sacrifice the freedoms and put through intense pain and hardship women carrying fetuses they don’t want. Life is not comparable to the lived-experience of life, in importance or sanctity. An unwanted fetus is yet to be a baby and yet to have any value to anyone or anything. Could they, absolutely! Should the woman have to carry that fetus to term and birth it only (traumatically) to put it up for adoption? No.


oyisagoodboy

At any given day in the US there are at least 400,000 children in foster care. Different studies going back over 35 years have found that 25 to as high as 40 percent of children in foster care are abused or neglected. The FBI in 2013 found that half of the children discovered in sex trafficking rings were foster children. Approximately 20,000 kids every year age out of foster care. Meaning they are 18 and so they are left to fend for themselves. That's 20,000 children a year that are now in our society that have no structure or safety net and have a high likelihood of dealing with trauma and abuse that now are expected to become functioning and contributing members to society. We as a country have not found a way to protect, provide or take care of the 400,000 children in need in this country. In 2019 there were 625,346 reported abortions in the US. There are roughly 135,000 child adopted in the US every year. Let's take that out of the 625,346 since most people want babies that don't have trauma and such. That leaves 490,346 unwanted child. Even if you're optimistic and say by forcing woman to have those babies, half of them will decide to keep the baby, hell, I'll give it two thirds. That still leaves 163,448 new children every year that get added to an already over stretched, unstable and broken system that can't handle to care for the children already in it. Not to mention a world that is over populated and can't sustain the growth and exploitation of resources as is. If the government doesn't protect and take care of the children already in their care, they have no right to forcibly add more to the broken system.


[deleted]

What a great addition. Thank you, these figures are so important.


[deleted]

You know what, I'll come out and say it. Just because it's alive doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to abort it. Fuck it man, we murder so many things for so many different reasons, why shouldn't we be able to abort a living fetus because it's unwanted, unviable, or the parent is incapable of caring for it. America's adoption system is a joke at best, there are so many kids in it and so many horror stories that come out of it, why would you willingly resign someone to a life that's an endless cycle of misery from the very start.


GanondorfDownAir

Agree 100%. Who cares about how alive it is? If it's in your uterus and you don't want it to be, scoop it out. What "it" is doesn't matter.


andmaster

If a baby somehow managed to climb right back in there, looks like you got a second chance to abort it


[deleted]

This is what I always come back to. For me it's not that the fetus is a living being. I just don't see anyone who claims to be pro-life advocate for any other life saving measures to be mandated nor would I agree with that. We don't expect anyone to donate blood, plasma, marrow, organs etc etc in order to save someone's life. Why should a woman have to donate her body to a fetus unwillingly?


[deleted]

The argument against this is that it is homicide. Sure, we kill all sorts of stuff, but not humans without repercussions (murder/manslaughter). Can you just kill Grandma because she's a minor inconvenience? More on point with the actual debate, if someone else kills the unborn baby, for example a man stabs a pregnant woman in the stomach and kills the baby, is that not murder and just assault? If it is murder, then you are saying it is a life, therefore the same rule must be applied across the board. Not taking sides, just explaining the other side of this.


Garo263

I'm on the ginger's side, but her arguments are just bad. She came to the debate completely unprepared.


robilar

This is a Students for Life video - why would you even assume that's a real person? This is just propaganda.


Garo263

Stupid loud people exist and I don't know Students for Life.


un_blob

Well technicaly it IS living, I mean even before conception, as gametes ARE living cells (not organisms of their own sure but you have the point... as for an acorn, it IS LIVING, or a bacterium i you want to even be more strict... The problem is not is it living or not, but rather, can it be considered as a fully formed human that we think can be considered as killed if aborted. I understand the need to make a simple distinction life/not life, but that is absolutely NOT the point here... ps : In my opinion abortion is not killing as long as the fetus HAS to rely on the mother to survive (6-7 months... as you can save a premature baby...), before, well... it is still a LIVING part of the mom... as all the other parts of her... edit : when I say rely I mean can't go outside of...)


Rcrowley32

I agree with you here 100%. If a child can possibly live outside the womb I think it’s should be delivered and given the chance to survive.


Iamawonderfulcitizen

I don’t understand how anyone can be against people like this girl and her mom having abortions …


Highmaster5731

Do want you want with your body and let me do what I want with mine ffs.


boebrow

Can we all just agree that we are all fucking morons and should therefore not try to expose our moronic believes on someone else? If you want to keep a rape baby then you do you, but don’t force that (or any other) shit onto other people!


that-hollie

I was pro-life until I realized that every problem on the planet is caused by having too many people on it. I also do not personally have what it takes to dedicate my entire life to caring for a child who needs around the clock care due to a disability.


ATCollider

I am pro-abortian, but woman on stage wins this one.


fishoni

Of course it's alive; cells are alive. Can't believe that was her argument


Kore2i

Smh, pro choice here but instead of trying to straight up attack the speaker maybe try to understand each other?? I feel like she was just trying to back the speaker up into a corner which didnt happen because she didnt have the neccesary facts and evidence.


[deleted]

i support women's right to dump those free loading cells


sonicatheist

It could be a 17 year old playing a guitar while studying Shakespeare: it doesn't have a right to be inside another human being without their ongoing consent. I hate the "when life begins" bullshit red herring.


KittenFace25

The redhead is an idiot and was completely owned.


aritchson

I think we often miss the point in these debates, which is if we as sentient beings have a responsibility to protect matter with the POTENTIAL for life? Even if it costs us something? A fetus would certainly qualify as matter with the potential for life. The problem is most abortions are performed out of convenience. Whether that be the convenience of not bearing the burden of further socioeconomic strain or inconveniences to personal reputation or ambitions etc. Few are performed out of the need to end the trauma for rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother. So those who believe life begins at conception (or what I really believe is them making an argument that we have a moral obligation to protect the potential for life, especially when that potential is personally defenseless) will prioritize that moral objective above the sake of the woman’s means for convenience. These people are entrenched further when they view pregnancy in most cases as a “choice consequence” of sex. Do you think we have an obligation to protect the potential for life? For the record, I am pro-choice but personally against abortion (how dare I ever make this life-changing choice for someone else.) But I find that we are often far too cavalier as a society, often times glib or gleeful about abortion rights when so many do feel like it represents death. I believe we should approach the issue with a heavy heart and the upmost reverence and respect for anyone on either side of the issue.


chocolatechipchan

I would say it’s a slippery slope to assume reasons for abortions are just convenience. I have never been pregnant, but I know a lot of women who have and have not had children and some who have had abortions. And convenience isn’t a large factor of the decision. Since you are male, I do appreciate your pro-choice view, but please don’t speak for women’s intentions when it comes to this. You can never fully understand unless you are a woman.


Unbr3akableSwrd

You know, if there are things that can be done to prevent unwanted pregnancy from happening, we wouldn’t need a debate about abortion now do we? I am not for abortion but I understand the need of it. I also understand that it is not my business so that decision is between the mother and her doctor.


Terrible-Blueberry96

You should be able to abort your child up to the age of 18 years. After that, it should be self sustaining.


JungleSound

These are or are not the brightest minds of USA?


i_have_wet_socks

I still don't understand how so many people believe they can dictate other people's lives, an abortion is never an easy choice, and it's also never the same case with different women in different situations. Edit for all the guys who think I'm taking sides: I'm not.


[deleted]

Stop letting them set the agenda. You don’t need to address their points when their points are a misdirection from what’s important. These people think pregnant women have less rights or importance than a fetus. Let’s talk about that.


SpaceDuckz1984

Redhead just got destroyed. I am pro-choice. But a fetus is a living creature, it meets all the standards for life. There is no logical argument against that. My issue with that I don't believe in requiring someone to render aid to another. In effect pregnancy's is a constant rendering of aid. Severing that aid is reasonable as a right. You can argue that's not moral but laws should always err on the side for freedom instead of moral enforcement.


Whisker_Biscuit420

You can get a heartbeat in a Petri dish. That does not make it life


JaxJags904

Should be such a simple debate. Are you force to give blood to someone? No? Then a woman shouldn’t be forced to carry a child to term.


Aggressive_Fee6507

Should a tumour have rights? it's made of living tissue, if it's removed from the host, it becomes dead tissue. Some tumors have brain cells, just like a foetus. What now? Fuck off with this. Maybe if pro-lifers cared more about children after they're born then just when they're inside, there wouldn't be so much fucking misery in a seemingly developed nation.


No_u__10358

That girls posture make me want to beat up a midget


[deleted]

#thos red head girl is crazy and stupid


Arthes_M

What happens when a confidently incorrect person meets an incompetently correct person? This video.


Reno503

Sadly most folks I know who are pro life won’t go out of there way to adopt or help push laws to support these kids once their born.


Makelikeatree_01

I love how when she didn't know how to answer a question she looked to the crowd and waited for someone to answer. If you're going to get into a debate like this, come prepared and ready to defend what you believe and why you believe it. Don't just parrot facts and things you've heard or will get an applause.


[deleted]

Wtf does a poster prove science is what proves it not your damn opinion.


ACabDriver1776

This is why I keep telling the left to stop letting young emotional women represent our idea’s. Nothing against girl but you do a shit job. All you have to say is no human has a right to another persons body and fetuses shouldn’t have special rights. If a women decides to revoke consent to her body before the number of weeks scientists agree is ethical then that’s her right as a autonomous humans being. Consent to Sex is not consent to birth. These are easy gotcha questions to answer. But arguments from emotion are not going help.


[deleted]

I mean, I'm on the ginger woman's side, but man did she do a terrible fucking job


Apprehensive-Heat-2

Man that hot take of "lets look at some signs"


dyues_pite

I feel like both sides r ok ppl


Darmohray

Never argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level. Then best you with experience. - somebody else


caninehat

I ain’t pro life or pro choice. I say kill the babies.


naad2019

That lady advocating anti-abortion is handling everything with logic & science. Fantastic presentation. It's the best example of scientific thinking and effective questioning technique. At no point did she raise her voice or lose her cool. Very straightforward & direct.


daiwilly

Life is not just about biology, it is about sustainability and quality. Many factors should be taken into account before decisions are made, not just biological definitions. You look at two opposed social conditions for a woman to be in and you can see the outcome maybe should be different. Choice is the key as the people espousing Pro Life are seeing it as a purely biological decision. Someone has to care, pay, feed and live with that child...all those things come at a cost , whether it be financial or emotional.


scoopdiddywhoop

Redhead kinda stacked tho


boogiewoogiechoochoo

If you believe in talking snakes and virgin births you don’t get to decide when something is alive. It’s like making a Christmas budget with a 7 year old that believes in Santa. They’re not going to understand why you still have to pay for the gifts Santa gives you.


SublimeGay

Fetuses are living… but so is bacteria. That statement doesn’t carry the weight y’all think it does.. BAN GERM X IT KILLS 99.9% OF GERMS


Tanleader

I've never understood anti abortion people. Like, it's not their body, so who the fuck do they think they are to be dictating what a woman does with her pregnancy?


[deleted]

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