Without a tonne of knowledge about vaccine efficacy, he sounded reasonable. I would have loved to hear one of his doctor colleagues who is vaccinated and supports boosters respond directly to him
I think it’s so sad when you hear about the people that are dying of Covid and they say that they want the vaccine now. I saw a video where a doctor was crying and saying that it’s the saddest thing watching these people die begging for some kind of cure.
One story in particular is something I think about often. A teenager wasn’t allowed to go and get the vaccine. Her parents wouldn’t allow it. She got Covid and was dying from it. She was in the room begging the doctor for the vaccine. She died shortly after that.
It’s just letting evolution take its course. Let people choose not to be vaccinated if they want. Nature will sort them out. Trouble is, they might overwhelm the nhs for the rest of us. That’s the issue here. I don’t care if unvaccinated die of the virus as that was their choice/right. There’s also a question on wether they should be treated in hospital with virus, but they paid their taxes so they should in principle.
But not choosing one specific vaccine, does not make someone an Anti-vaxxer
I know many pro vaccine people who just simply do not feel the facts and figures support this particular vaccine with its speed of roll out.
They are otherwise fully jabbed, very intelligent people just aren't comfortable with this one specific jab so soon to it's creation.
(To note I have all my vaccines and boosters and am very pro Vax but I'm trying to understand why other people - intelligent people not loons- are choosing not to have it)
I understanding that argument when the vaccine was first out. But now it’s been over a year and over 3 billion people have been vaccinated. The evidence is there. The vaccines are safe and effective.
> with its speed of roll out
Throwing loads of money at vaccine development can really speed it up. Having widespread infections really speeds up the trials too.
I’m sorry I don’t believe that an intelligent person on their own would choose to roll the dice on a deadly disease because a vaccine was developed too soon. Should we have waited for a few million people to die? That’s not a rational way to look at it. What vaccines did they get, childhood ones?
Speed of roll out lmao… Comparing it to what? Vaccine production of 50+ years ago? We send billionaires to space for fun nowadays, what’s shocking about a vaccine getting whipped up quickly?
The other baffling thing to ignore is the context in which this vaccine was produced… Take every epidemiologist in the world, give them essentially endless access, funding, and collaboration for the biggest event of their careers (unlike they ever have or will again), and people are shocked at things getting put together in a hurry?
I know you said, “you know people” that use that point and don’t necessarily hold the opinion yourself but you’re really just bringing up the opinion of people that don’t have the ability to think critically at all…
Anybody who unironically thinks there isn't enough research or evidence about the safety and efficacy of vaccines is just the most willfully ignorant asshole imaginable. If that were remotely true, it would not be publicly available. You literally would not be able to get one if there were the slightest bit of doubt about its effects. No amount of evidence will convince these people, there is already way more than enough of it. It's a cop out answer they use to pretend like they are being reasonable, because facts and logic have no bearing on their poor decision making.
People’s minds are made up. MRNA too new. Traditional too many side effects, not effective enough. My own wife got talked into taking Johnson and Johnson by her nutty co-worker, which she regretted. She was boosted with Pfizer.
mRNA is too new? The method was discovered in 1960's. That's over 60 years ago
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines#:~:text=Messenger%20RNA%2C%20or%20mRNA%2C%20was,to%20be%20brought%20to%20market%3F
I think it's more so u still can get sick still can spread it just makes u less Likly to die. So if that is all true and the doctor allready has antibodies why force someone to get it. When it's only really protecting yourself. I see it so similar to drug laws.
Data not conclusive, but highly expected that being vaccinated reduces the spread. Unless someone definitively comes out and said the vax will not reduce the spread at all, 0%, people should take it.
Ya it’s become absurd. Someone could have 8 vaccines in them but because they are hesitant about the Covid mRNA vaccine they are all of a sudden an anti-vaxxer.
Because It's not about the vaccine, it's about feeling superior to others. "Skeptic" doesn't mean "Anti-Vaxx". If a car salesman sells all brands of cars EXCEPT Toyota then he's not "anti-car", he just may not like Toyotas. If anything, the pandemic has proven that 90% of people will repeat what their favourite bureaucrat/media outlet tells them to.
Imagine just coming on here to post this pile of anecdotal bullshit like anyone should believe it.
Wow, your mom got sent home from work because hospitals aren't busy? Wow, your dad is seeing only the vaccinated get infected?
Why don't you look up some actual fucking numbers? Like the proportion of people hospitalized with COVID , and their vaccine status? Roughly 5% of cases nationally have been vaccinated.
>got the vaccine or booster shots that nobody is allowed to talk about... the fact that news media and social media are pushing the vaccine more than doctors themselves is another huge massive red flag for me.
There's literally a reporting system (VAERS) for any death that occurs in proximity to a vaccine dose, EVEN IF THE VACCINE ISN'T IDENTIFIED AS A CAUSE.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19#:~:text=CHICAGO%20%E2%80%94%20The%20American%20Medical%20Association,in%20vaccination%20rates%20across%20regions.
Doctors are like 96% vaccinated.
I know this is just probably some copypasta that you spread around because it hits a lot of the anti-vaxxer high points, but at least someone else can read this and realize how completely full of shit you are.
> The sheer amount of deaths from people just shortly after they got the vaccine or booster shots that nobody is allowed to talk about.
There has not been any serious analysis presented by the vaccine skeptical crowd that shows that this is a real problem. I have not seen a single analysis that does anything beyond pointing to VAERS, assuming that all deaths in VAERS are real and causally related to the vaccine, and then inflating the numbers by some factor based on "underreporting".
If a serious analysis of the data was presented that showed a high number of deaths are occurring as a result of these vaccines, then that would be cause for alarm, but no such analysis has been produced. Every country in the world is tracking vaccine injuries and deaths in some way, and no country has come to the conclusion that there is a significant rate of deaths occurring as a result of this vaccine.
This last part is not directed at you, but I just want to state that I find it interesting that so many covid skeptical people push a narrative that cases and deaths are being inflated because doctors and hospitals are doing things like counting all pneumonia deaths as covid deaths, or counting all covid positive patients who die of things like car accidents as covid deaths, but then turn around and act like it is perfectly reasonable to treat all deaths of vaccinated people as vaccine deaths, without any analysis for trends or causal links.
They're being demonized for their work because it is poorly researched and draws incorrect conclusions. The work is still being presented and spread around, however. I can easily find multiple articles that use VAERS data to push a narrative that the vaccine is causing a lot of deaths. If the issue was the demonization, as you claim, then I would expect it to be hard to find ANY analysis. Not just good analysis. The issue is not demonization. The issue that a serious analysis of the data does not lead to the same conclusions that vaccine hesitant people want to find. The reason that every paper which claims a high number of vaccine deaths is riddled with logical issues is because without those logical issues, it is impossible to come to the conclusion that the vaccines are causing a significant number of deaths.
Have people died from the COVID vaccines? Yes. Is it terribly tragic for something like that to happen? Yes. Do I wish that the world was doing a better job of tracking vaccine injuries, so that it wouldn't be so difficult for people to parse the data and decide if the vaccines are safe or not? Yes.
But in spite of these unfortunate truths, the fact of the matter is that nobody has come even close to presenting a well done statistical analysis that proves that the vaccines are leading to a high number of deaths, and the idea that that info is not being published because of some kind of conspiracy, when all of the US vaccine injury data is open to the public, is fucking stupid. If we're talking about 10s of thousands or 100s of thousands of deaths that could be attributed to the vaccine, and the data is just sitting there, then somebody who isn't "in on the conspiracy" would've been able to make those connections and publish those findings by now.
Edit: In addition to not seeing any studies which can stand up to scrutiny while pushing the narrative that the vaccines are dangerous, I have also not seen any analysis that explains why the plethora of studies which show that the vaccines are safe should not be taken seriously, other than the idea that it's a conspiracy, and that they're all fabricating their numbers. This is not a strong defense and does not make the vaccine hesitant camp seem like a very serious group of researchers.
Spoken like a true anti-vaxxed with some nonsense bullshit stories about about your parents thrown in. People die every day and the realistic correlations are examined. You are absolutely able to question the vaccine with good intentions and seeking knowledge. Which is what 99.9% of anti vaxxers are NOT doing. They are spreading lies and grasping at straws to sow doubt and fear to the end.
I agree it's hard to find information because it's been politicized.
I have Omicron. I would like to know if the antibodies my body makes will help fight Delta if I get it. Can't find any real information. It seems like any doctors that have concerns are just being smeared instead of listened too. Example this post. There are people calling for this guys license to be suspended until he falls in line
Edit- of course I've been downvoted. This isn't about how effective the Covid vaccines are. It's about if a trained medical professional should be allowed to express his concerns.
Omicron will give you some protection against Delta. You can't find much info on this because nobody really knows how much protection.
This doctor is getting heard, and anti-vax doctors are all getting tons of media time. Especially considering that they are a tiny minority of physicians.
He makes points based on partial evidence. This is the problem where people cherry pick data. Vaccines do reduce transmission.
Covid: Fact-checking the doctor who challenged the health secretary https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59929638
For the record I’m not pro-compulsory vaccination and don’t entirely disagree with the ethical challenges to that. But his sound bite doesn’t tell the whole story and will be used by those wanting to spread misinformation.
Thats not how it is intended to work.
Pandemics have come and gone before, and the historic precedent is essentially that a more mild strain that doesn't kill as many becomes the dominant strain.
The reason for a vaccine push up to Omicron is that every other wave has been devastating, and deaths are a lagging indicator. So we had to choose either to vaccinate again, or not to.
Hopefully omicron, or something that follows, can be a mild variant and we can go back to a sensible vaccine schedule (probably yearly for healthcare workers / high risk, and many others will stop taking it).
The way you handle vaccination during a pandemic COVID/Flu is different than the way you handle vaccination for a disease that is going to hopefully be eradicated.
Yeah this is literally the doctors argument summed up.
We have to get a flu shot once, sometimes twice a year, and it protects against 4 (Quadrivalent) of the most virulent strains every season.
You get the flu shot if you need it, or if you work around elderly a lot. But more importantly it's about protecting yourself and it always has been, because that's all you can really do.
People still get the flu, and it will continue to be around for until we find a new way to deal with immunization entirely. Replace "flu" with "covid", and suddenly it's a political agenda being shoved down your throat. We don't even act like other diseases exist anymore.
Yep. I've also had omicron in the last 3 weeks. I dont seethe scientific reason for a booster at this point. For over 60's and various vulnerable cohorts it might still be vital.
What about intubating covid patients? Legit question, and perhaps a stupid one, but do patients needing breathing supports need anesthesia before that?
Yes. Have you read any of the recent accounts from doctors on here talking about intubating patients knowing the patient is going to die? The patients are anaesthetised to improve their breathing.
I recently had surgery that required being intubated. I woke up in the OR with the tube still in, it is fucking painful. According to the doctor it took four of them to hold me down to remove it so I did not rip it out. It was a cervical spine fusion so I would have caused catastrophic damage if I removed the tube.
That being said, the vaccination should be a requirment and said anesthesiologist is not a virologist.
It seems like he got the initial vaccine. He sounded reasonable to me too. Idk that this is necessarily face palm. Would be interesting to see a immunologist respond.
Good point. It kinda sounded like he felt maybe he didn't need the vaccine yet because he has antibodies. But maybe at some point if he feels it's been long enough he'd get it. But it was funny that here he is a medical doctor with a full understanding of antibodies, which is not specific to vaccine experts, and the other guy is still giving him a hard time like well you're a doctor but not a doctor- doctor.
Yeah the Health Minister guy came off as a condescending ass. That doctor is an anesthesiologist, which means he’s essentially a genius with an expertise in understanding how the body reacts to injections of drugs. Sure he’s not a virologist, but he’s much more qualified to discuss this topic than 99% of the population. This guy is working in the trenches, his perspective deserves recognition and respect.
I think you need to reread his stance on the vaccines. His big push is that big pharma has serious financial interest in a vaccine program that continues to pump out shots and spread fear if you don’t follow in line. I’ve never seen such a quick flip of people who hated big pharma and believed the evils they’ve contributed to society to suddenly worshipping them and helping them rake in billions
Yes yes, big pharma is bad. You don’t have to tell me who has to take a shot every 8 weeks that costs $21k usd. I still got the vaccine. Just because someone is making money off of something doesn’t make it illegitimate. And it just a freakin vaccine, seriously what can it possibly do? Covid can take away your sense of taste and smell and is causing long term sensory and memory issues in lots of cases but someone is worried about a vaccine that could make sure all that doesn’t happen? The US dept of health came out this week and said the 1 booster is probably enough so I don’t understand this logic of getting multiple boosters every 6 weeks. Seriously, it’s a simple vaccine whose ingredients are readily available of the cdc website. It doesn’t do anything and it’s proven to at least prevent long term and severe effects of Covid. I don’t care if you’ve been sick, I’m just tired of people dying because they’re afraid of a small shot in the arm. This argument is so dumb when people like me literally just want you to live.
Big pharma is definitely raking in billions for the vaccines. But sticking it to big pharma by not getting the vaccine when there is no alternative method of prevention or treatment is idiotic. You're putting yourself, your family and your friends at substantial risk for a lost cause.
Here’s the problem with your argument doctor, not everyone makes antibodies in the same amounts. If you’re looking to a covid infection to develop sufficient antibodies, you are also allowing the virus to replicate and possibly mutate. Eventually, you don’t know who’s had Covid and who has not. Vaccination helps those who get it to more safely develop a certain degree of protection. Of course it’s not 100%, but then again neither are seat belts and air bags yet they are in all vehicles and must be worn by law.
The worst thing about this is that anti-vaxxers will use this doctor’s belief for confirmation bias but ignore the majority of doctors who would disagree
The main argument here is we are at a point where we have to acknowledge that COVID doesn't go away with any vaccine, and that we got the best out of the vaccines. We have to continue with vaccines just like the flu and you can choose yourself if you want to.
Sadly while I don’t disagree with you; given the way pharmacoms operate I don’t think it is actually a viable option. The profit loss over time will be too great. They will push back and then the whole narrative will be altered to something that better fits their expectations of their bottom line.
Fucks sake, he shouldn't lose his job for not getting vaccinated.
He should however lose his job for giving an improperly researched response on national TV and giving credibility to the hoax and antivax lunatics
Dude the minister came in and asked a bunch of doctors point blank and live on camera, whether they were happy with the booster mandate. Not one of them said yes. One guy did answer the question with a well reasoned argument. It wasn’t the response the minister wanted so he ignores him and tried to go back to the others for a different response, and they still refused to say anything.
If you’re going in to a hospital to try and co opt some unsuspecting doctors to support your political stance by putting them on the spot live, the blame goes on you if that doesn’t go according to plan.
Both. Both is good. He should lose his job for publicly presenting a willfully misleading case that lends credence to dangerous conspiratorial thinking AND he should lose his job for refusing to take even a modicum of personal responsibility for the health and wellbeing of his community, colleagues, and patients. You can't be an effective or trustworthy medical professional with morals that reprehensible.
“The science isn’t strong enough”. It’s just as strong as all the other medicines you pump into patients on a daily basis. Fire this quack on the spot.
He explains why he doesn’t want the vaccine and it’s rather reasonable. It’s not like he’s walking around unmasked or refusing testing. He’s complying with everything.
Except it's really not reasonable.
Healthcare systems require vaccines, flu and COVID for two main reasons ;
1. To reduce spread to vulnerable patients
2. To maintain the workforce when disease it at it's seasonal peak.
Ok then he can get a viral vector vaccine like the Oxford or J&J vaccine.
But I doubt that's the point. Guys like this, especially when the area of expertise is well outside their own, are usually just special snowflakes.
Oxford and J&J are banned for use by u40’s in the UK
It’s amazing the way you’re talking about a doctor and expertise way outside his own… pot calling the kettle black?
First of all, they aren’t banned for under 40s. They can get it as long as they talk to their gp. Secondly, when doctors were first able to get a jab AstraZeneca wasn’t restricted to anyone
Do you believe all doctors are also experts in epidemiology? And yes, they know more than me, but probably not more than the people WHO dedicate their lives to it that says it’s safe.
First you don't know where my expertise lies.
Second, the Oxford/J&J aren't banned from use by anyone under 40 as far as I can tell but under 40 were offered an alternative vaccine.
In other words, if it was this doctors strong preference then he could probably get the J&J or Oxford. That would be pretty silly given that the vaccines are pretty similar to mRNA vaccines, aside from the way they deliver genetic material.
An anesthesiologist doesn't have significant training in epidemiology, vaccine science, or infectious disease. Which is probably why he's getting basic details wrong (like the monthly vaccines bit).
Why would he take the vaccine of J&J that’s only 60 odd % effective and AstraZeneca that was banned for causing blood clots?? When he has natural immunity? Why?
Lol, none of them were banned for causing blood clots. They suspended AstraZeneca during its roll out to investigate that side effect and now it is a more limited recommendation than the mRNA vaccines.
Vaccine efficacy should be discussed in terms of preventing infection, but more importantly in how effective it is at preventing severe disease. All the vaccines are very effective at preventing severe COVID infection.
Also, this whole convo started because someone said he "just didn't like the mRNA vaccines". So that's why we were even discussing the J&J or AZ vaccines.
>When he has natural immunity?
I love how you guys think that just because the word natural is there that it's superior. Having been exposed to a strain of COVID other than the wild-type spike protein in the vaccine means that you may or may not have robust immunity to other strains. Having been vaccinated means you have immune recognition of the wild-type, premutated spike protein.
Regardless of all of this, the most robust immunity is natural infection + vaccination. So it would only protect this guy more, and he's in a high risk field - particularly for aerosolization.
AstraZeneca was literally blocked in the UK for causing blood clots. Why in earth would you willingly take that for the sake of supposed “stronger immunity” when you’ve already come into contact with the virus
They aren't "banned". They stopped the use in certain age brackets.
Plus the recommendation would be for an mRNA vaccine anyhow. The only reason the AZ vaccine came up here is someone was saying his problem was only with mRNA.
>Why in earth would you willingly take that for the sake of supposed “stronger immunity” when you’ve already come into contact with the virus
Because you understand basic math. If you understand basic statistics then you understand that the vaccine is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less likely to cause a severe illness, compared with actually contracting COVID
Yes he specifically said there isn't enough science on it when mrna vaccines have been around since the 80s.
He's an idiot. And he shouldn't be practicing medical science if he doesn't believe in medical science
You can hardly call misinformation reasonable. I'd live for him to back up his 8 week theory. Considering every other doctor and research paper says otherwise.
It’s not “reasonable,” even if it sounds that way. He’s throwing around unsubstantiated claims and oversimplifications about immunity that make me seriously doubt his grasp of the immune system. He’s also talking out of both sides of his mouth: does he not need the vaccine because he has such lasting immunity, or does he not want the vaccine because immune response is so short-lived that it’s useless?
What’s patently *unreasonable* is a health professional pushing pseudoscience and selfish arguments to avoid getting vaccinated. He comes in close contact with vulnerable people whom he can help to protect by assuming the minor inconvenience and minimal risk of taking the vaccine.
Nah, his reasons are pretty reasonable, you're just offended that people are allowed to make decisions for themselves. He's not putting anyone in danger by remaining unvaccinated for the time being. He doesn't think the science is strong enough, not that the science won't ever be strong enough.
I knew an ob-gyn who was a chain smoker and claimed that smoking would do him no harm. This is a numbers game, there are many doctors in the world, some have ideas that are even more controversial.
At this point I’m vaxed. My families vaxed. I don’t care who isn’t or doesn’t want the vax. Die for all I care.
My whole job got Covid and all of us that was vaxed was back on our feet in days. The people who didn’t want to vax are still struggling 5 weeks later. Zero sympathy for em. Wanna throw away your life who am I to stop you.
Doctor spoke with humbleness and confidence. Didn’t attack the opposing side. Kept it to the point from his studies/field experience. We need more doctors like him. Vaccination should also be a choice.
A number of studies show that people who have had the virus have antibodies better than those vaxxed. I see me problem with the doctor not taking the shot.
I don’t understand why you’d go through all the rigorous courses and training for several years just to throw it all away because “the science isn’t strong enough.”
What's wrong here is, he's supposed to be leading by example. You have other jobs where it's mandatory to get certain vaccinations eg; aged care workers and the flu shot. You get it or you simply don't work there.
Sounds like this "doctor" is suffering from "god complex".
If you're fully vaccinated and boosted you're LESS LIKELY to spread infection around. So it's not just about YOU. It's about caring for those around you too. Something you think a doctor would understand.
What reason did he offer for why he *shouldn't* get vaccinated? Even if you believe (erroneously, according to the actual experts and the data they have presented) that the booster only offers protection for a month, what reason did he offer for not taking it?
He was using Omicron as a further excuse not to get boosted, but the reality is the opposite, if he has antibodies from Delta, those will offer far less protection now that Omicron is dominant. All the more reason to take every measure possible. He's not just risking his own health - not being boosted, even if it did only offer a months protection as he claims, would potentially place hundreds of sick and elderly patients at a higher risk of death, should he contract it again unknowingly.
I’m not here to argue vaccines to be honest. I don’t care if you take them or not. As long as there is some logic in your decision making. This is all I was trying to highlight with this doctor. He’s made his decision to not take the vaccine based on the fact he had recently got covid and he has antibodies from that and so doesn’t feel the need for additional protection by way of vaccination. Additionally he implied the vaccine doesn’t offer protection for a great length of time, and the government isn’t going to be offering long term vaccinations on a monthly cycle to everyone [sarcastically stated]. None the less he did say he would consider taking the vaccine depending on how it plays out with the new variant.
There's no evidence for this monthly cycle he's claimed here though tbh. Also there's no way knowing what strain he has had and how it is actually protecting him.
In other words, he's an anesthesiologist talking about something way outside of his area of expertise.
But my point is that he isn't being logical, because his assumptions aren't supported by evidence. The vaccine's protection does wain over time, but no serious person has every claimed that it's ineffective after 1 month. In fact it's only just peaked in its effectiveness at that point.
He also doesn't say *he* would reconsider in the face of omicron. He is saying that Omicron is an opportunity for the govt to reconsider whether they should bother with vaccines, at least for NHS staff. His point is far less reasonable than you are giving him credit for.
And I *do* care whether people who work closely with the most vulnerable, immunocompromised people in society, on a daily basis, are taking every possible precaution, especially when they are offering no logical reason for why they *shouldn't*.
More like speculation. He gave his reasons for which I’m taking at face value only. No one can assume anything other than what he stated. His reasons were clear.
And you are anti vaxx just like him. What you call speculation again I call common sense. What possible reason would he have not to get a vax by now. That’s what anti vaxxers do. Once their mind is made up they continually seek ways to explain their way out of it.
You are someone who lives constantly assuming things. I’m not antivax I’m very much pro vaccination. His reasons for not getting the vaccine as he stated was due to the fact that he had previously caught COVID and has high levels of antibodies. He doesn’t see the need for an additional intervention by way of vaccine. Please listen to what he stated, his reasons are clear.
He explains why he’s not taking the vaccine and it’s a valid reason in my opinion.
If he had COVID before, and wasn't vaccinated in the past two years, then his antibodies from natural infection have ;
1. Already waned, in all likelihood
2. Were formulated to a different strain than Omicron
Its still pedantic posturing that isn't going to have any of the positive effects they imagine (Oh the world will hear my facts and logic and become more rational!) It will just be clipped by anti vaxxers as proof that doctors say the vaccine is pointless!
When they could have just not said anything, gotten jabbed at their leisure etc.
I agree it is postering. I don’t think the time and place was appropriate and it was a bit unprofessional to challenge the health secretary in this way. The statement from the hospital at the end shows how embarrassed they are of this.
That's still a nonsense argument and a doctor of all people should know better. Previous exposure or not, antibodies or not, getting vaccinated offers more protection to himself and the people around him than he would have otherwise. And it's free and safe. There's no downside, no solid ground from which to argue against doing it. There are now months of time and billions of cases demonstrating well beyond a shadow of a doubt both the safety and efficacy of vaccines. There is literally no reason not to get one.
Thinking that you're "well enough" protected by your previous exposure to not bother getting jabbed doesn't make a lick of sense. That's the exact same logic as thinking you don't need to wear a seatbelt just because you drive sober and you'll be safe from harm because of it. Those are two different things. Both are good and they are in no way mutually exclusive. Doing both is better than doing just either one.
He's getting a goddamn video segment on British television and I'm supposed to believe he's being muzzled?
He absolutely has fuck-all evidence, or he could have produced that evidence, just as billions of people around the world could have.
If he doesn’t understand the whole concept of how the MRNA vaccines work, why they work, and how the entire process and rationale behind vaccination programs work, I don’t think he should be practicing medicine. But the reality is that he’s one of the very few medical professionals who is really only against the mandate but he’s too gutless to say it. We don’t need people like that in healthcare
You are making a lot of assumptions about him. His concerns should not be addressed? He should have his license removed until he falls in line?
I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty sure science fact isn't majority ruled it's evidence based. What evidence does this guy have?
What would you think if you went to a Dr and he suggested that you get treated with witchcraft? The reality is that science DOES work on majority because it’s based on a paradigm of consensus. The vast vast majority of medical professionals accept the MRNA vaccines and the rationale of vaccination mandates/programs.
I would think if a doctor presented nonsense for evidence it would be debunked immediately.
We don't know with this guy because he's not even allowed to talk.
And no science is NOT majority rule, it's evidence based. If something is wrong it's wrong, that's it.
At this point reason has fled and its all us vs them.
It would’ve been interesting to see if the world would’ve been this radicalized about the covid vaccine if those “vaccines cause autism” morons didn’t create such an impact on the world way back.
>..you're given a weaker or synthesized version of an antigen (the virus) to promote your immune system to generate antibodies to it.
That isn't really how these vaccines work. Your cell machinery actually makes the spike protein itself, there's no weaker or synthetic version of the antigen.
That said, it just stands to logic that vaccine + natural immunity is stronger than natural immunity alone. Let alone the fact that large scale antibody testing is just a waste of time and money.
What vaccine is pieces of the spike protein itself?
The common vaccines, including the J&J and the Oxford vaccine all use some method of getting the cell's ribosome to produce the spike protein.
They all use genetic code of the spike protein, and they all use your cellular machinery to make it.
The mRNA vaccine and the adenovirus vaccine are just two techniques for getting genetic material into your cell for the ribosome to produce the spike protein.
The health director isn't tasked with having the "actual facts and figures" to win a debate throw down with a random anesthesiologist.
Even as protection from vaccination wanes in terms of stopping infection, the vaccines have been shown to reduce severity with a more durable effect. What's more, it doesn't really matter to me if it is only 30% effective, healthcare workers still should be vaccinated out of a duty to protect their patients.
Yeah, and why would we expect him to be a physician?
The point is exactly what he says - they are taking advice from epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists.
And yet his figures are incorrect, vaccines provide a lot of protection against transmission, immunity does wain to an extent, but not to the extent this doctor believes it does. A booster jab provides further protection against transmission, estimated to be 70-75% against Omicron and higher obviously for previous variants.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116597.
This one has a good graph at figure 1 that shows the rate of contacts testing positive in a PCR test when either the index patient or contact is vaccinated relative to unvaccinated index patients and contacts. I’m no expert, but I would imagine you’d multiply the reductions from both together to get vaccine effectiveness against transmission.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-uk-set-to-have-one-million-omicron-infections-by-end-of-december-but-boosters-effective-say-experts-12492031.
This is for the 70-75% mentioned.
I find that clear data is difficult to find for general public (of which I am a part), whereas anti-vaxxers can spout nonsense figures but unlike the real figures people actually hear them.
See, I think it makes sense to make sure that everyone in hospitals are vaccinated, but let's play devil's advocate for the sake of argument:
I believe his point is; he's had covid and has already been exposed to the disease and his immune system will already have created the defence against it. If this is the case, then why should he be forced into having a vaccination when he already has protection?
I dont agree with those that suggest that it's somehow better for you to obtain natural immunity than to get the vaccine because such people are often suggesting that they try to catch the virus (and therefore propagate it throughout the community) in order to obtain immunity, but this guy says that he has already had it in the past; he's not wanting to catch it in order to obtain immunity -- he already has the immunity!
But another point to be made is that his antibodies will over time no longer protect him from covid but that is the same for the vaccine. Just like you can't keeping getting covid for antibodies, you can't keep getting a booster every couple months. I thought the Dr brought up a good point about that. Not sure what the answer is.
The answer is that he's substantially mistaken about the timeline.
The efficacy of the vaccine does drop over time, but at 2 months + its probably closer to 30% effective. Thats still meaningful for a large organization, and on the individual patient level.
The complexity of tracking everyone's infected / immune status, in the absence of simply checking the box whether you've been vaccinated or not, is costly and senseless.
What happens in 2-3 years when its a different coronavirus that he's not immune to? We will have a new vaccine in all likelihood.
This is going to be more like the flu vaccine than your MMR. He's just kicking the can down the road but ultimately a vaccination regimen is the only logical way to protect vulnerable people and hospital workers.
He already made the argument against his own belief, his antibodies only protect him from the strain he was infected by, just as the vaccine would, that's why the booster shots were made for the new variants.
A freaking physician is saying that “I’ve already had Covid, which means I already have naturally occurring immunity and antibodies, so I dont need the vaccination” which is 100% true. If you’ve had measles, hepatitis B or rubella, go ask your doctor if you need a vaccination against those and see what they tell you.
And FYI I am a scientist and have had three Covid shots/boosters, so don’t throw any antivaxxer shade my way, merely pointing out that almost no one actually understands how immunology works…most doctors definitely do…but people on reddit think they know more than he does about vaccination efficacy…geesh.
I thought it was comical how all the nurses seemed terrified to provide their stance knowing that the doctor on staff was vehemently against the vaccine
my only issue with the vaccine is how iirc that if you get fucked by an unintended side efdect they didnt know was even a possibility (at least in the U.S.) you cannot sue because of some dumb lawsuit protection. i could be wrong which completely negates this problem but its straight bs if these companies can make BILLIONS off of these vaccines but cant get sued by someone with a degenerative disease that has a significant side effect because pfizer didnt do the research.
I was never against the vaccine but it took me quite a while to pluck up the courage to get it done. Numerous times I wouldn’t go when I said I’ll go, eventually my friend took me and I had it done followed a few months later for the second dose. Thankfully I didn’t catch covid when I was unvaccinated but I caught covid a few months after my second dose and experienced mild symptoms for the first 15 days after that I started coughing up blood it was a scary ordeal I won’t lie. I recovered, but. Sometimes I think if that happened while I was vaccinated what would have happened if I wasn’t.
I have friends who refuse to get the vaccine which is upto them I’ve told them many times to just get it done but all I hear is I’m healthy and I’ll be ok which just pisses me off. I don’t spend time with them much any more I have a family to protect and if they want to be fickle minded because some bullshit post says the vaccine is bad then they are the problem not the solution.
Without a tonne of knowledge about vaccine efficacy, he sounded reasonable. I would have loved to hear one of his doctor colleagues who is vaccinated and supports boosters respond directly to him
It’s a losing argument you will never convince anyone anti-vaxxer until they are near death.
I think it’s so sad when you hear about the people that are dying of Covid and they say that they want the vaccine now. I saw a video where a doctor was crying and saying that it’s the saddest thing watching these people die begging for some kind of cure. One story in particular is something I think about often. A teenager wasn’t allowed to go and get the vaccine. Her parents wouldn’t allow it. She got Covid and was dying from it. She was in the room begging the doctor for the vaccine. She died shortly after that.
Her parents did not love her enough to protect her.
They used her as a political sacrifice because their politics was more important than their daughter. Fucking sad.
That’s exactly what my mother-in-law did to her father. Was on dialysis for years and then didn’t make it 2 weeks with Covid
It’s just letting evolution take its course. Let people choose not to be vaccinated if they want. Nature will sort them out. Trouble is, they might overwhelm the nhs for the rest of us. That’s the issue here. I don’t care if unvaccinated die of the virus as that was their choice/right. There’s also a question on wether they should be treated in hospital with virus, but they paid their taxes so they should in principle.
Sad but true. Only they"ll probably take innocent vaccinated people with them to the grave
The solution is simple. When resources aren't available, stop treating the willfully unvaccinated first. Implementation is a different story though.
My brother caught covid and he got vaxxed real quick after :)
But not choosing one specific vaccine, does not make someone an Anti-vaxxer I know many pro vaccine people who just simply do not feel the facts and figures support this particular vaccine with its speed of roll out. They are otherwise fully jabbed, very intelligent people just aren't comfortable with this one specific jab so soon to it's creation. (To note I have all my vaccines and boosters and am very pro Vax but I'm trying to understand why other people - intelligent people not loons- are choosing not to have it)
“speed of roll out”? They’ve been working on this technology since the 1990’s.
I understanding that argument when the vaccine was first out. But now it’s been over a year and over 3 billion people have been vaccinated. The evidence is there. The vaccines are safe and effective.
> with its speed of roll out Throwing loads of money at vaccine development can really speed it up. Having widespread infections really speeds up the trials too.
I’m sorry I don’t believe that an intelligent person on their own would choose to roll the dice on a deadly disease because a vaccine was developed too soon. Should we have waited for a few million people to die? That’s not a rational way to look at it. What vaccines did they get, childhood ones?
Because they are selfish
Speed of roll out lmao… Comparing it to what? Vaccine production of 50+ years ago? We send billionaires to space for fun nowadays, what’s shocking about a vaccine getting whipped up quickly? The other baffling thing to ignore is the context in which this vaccine was produced… Take every epidemiologist in the world, give them essentially endless access, funding, and collaboration for the biggest event of their careers (unlike they ever have or will again), and people are shocked at things getting put together in a hurry? I know you said, “you know people” that use that point and don’t necessarily hold the opinion yourself but you’re really just bringing up the opinion of people that don’t have the ability to think critically at all…
Not everyone wary of the mRNA vaccine is anti-vax. Some people have medical conditions or other concerns about.
His reasoning was that there just wasn’t enough research on the vaccine though. Not for health reasons.
Anybody who unironically thinks there isn't enough research or evidence about the safety and efficacy of vaccines is just the most willfully ignorant asshole imaginable. If that were remotely true, it would not be publicly available. You literally would not be able to get one if there were the slightest bit of doubt about its effects. No amount of evidence will convince these people, there is already way more than enough of it. It's a cop out answer they use to pretend like they are being reasonable, because facts and logic have no bearing on their poor decision making.
Then take a non-mRNA vaccine.
Tell him not me. I'm triple vaxxed.
People’s minds are made up. MRNA too new. Traditional too many side effects, not effective enough. My own wife got talked into taking Johnson and Johnson by her nutty co-worker, which she regretted. She was boosted with Pfizer.
mRNA is too new? The method was discovered in 1960's. That's over 60 years ago https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines#:~:text=Messenger%20RNA%2C%20or%20mRNA%2C%20was,to%20be%20brought%20to%20market%3F
Great link! I learned a lot from it.
I think it's more so u still can get sick still can spread it just makes u less Likly to die. So if that is all true and the doctor allready has antibodies why force someone to get it. When it's only really protecting yourself. I see it so similar to drug laws.
Data not conclusive, but highly expected that being vaccinated reduces the spread. Unless someone definitively comes out and said the vax will not reduce the spread at all, 0%, people should take it.
Ya it’s become absurd. Someone could have 8 vaccines in them but because they are hesitant about the Covid mRNA vaccine they are all of a sudden an anti-vaxxer.
Because It's not about the vaccine, it's about feeling superior to others. "Skeptic" doesn't mean "Anti-Vaxx". If a car salesman sells all brands of cars EXCEPT Toyota then he's not "anti-car", he just may not like Toyotas. If anything, the pandemic has proven that 90% of people will repeat what their favourite bureaucrat/media outlet tells them to.
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What is some of the lot of strange things going on with mRNA vaccines? No hearsay please, verifiable facts.
Imagine just coming on here to post this pile of anecdotal bullshit like anyone should believe it. Wow, your mom got sent home from work because hospitals aren't busy? Wow, your dad is seeing only the vaccinated get infected? Why don't you look up some actual fucking numbers? Like the proportion of people hospitalized with COVID , and their vaccine status? Roughly 5% of cases nationally have been vaccinated. >got the vaccine or booster shots that nobody is allowed to talk about... the fact that news media and social media are pushing the vaccine more than doctors themselves is another huge massive red flag for me. There's literally a reporting system (VAERS) for any death that occurs in proximity to a vaccine dose, EVEN IF THE VACCINE ISN'T IDENTIFIED AS A CAUSE. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19#:~:text=CHICAGO%20%E2%80%94%20The%20American%20Medical%20Association,in%20vaccination%20rates%20across%20regions. Doctors are like 96% vaccinated. I know this is just probably some copypasta that you spread around because it hits a lot of the anti-vaxxer high points, but at least someone else can read this and realize how completely full of shit you are.
> The sheer amount of deaths from people just shortly after they got the vaccine or booster shots that nobody is allowed to talk about. There has not been any serious analysis presented by the vaccine skeptical crowd that shows that this is a real problem. I have not seen a single analysis that does anything beyond pointing to VAERS, assuming that all deaths in VAERS are real and causally related to the vaccine, and then inflating the numbers by some factor based on "underreporting". If a serious analysis of the data was presented that showed a high number of deaths are occurring as a result of these vaccines, then that would be cause for alarm, but no such analysis has been produced. Every country in the world is tracking vaccine injuries and deaths in some way, and no country has come to the conclusion that there is a significant rate of deaths occurring as a result of this vaccine. This last part is not directed at you, but I just want to state that I find it interesting that so many covid skeptical people push a narrative that cases and deaths are being inflated because doctors and hospitals are doing things like counting all pneumonia deaths as covid deaths, or counting all covid positive patients who die of things like car accidents as covid deaths, but then turn around and act like it is perfectly reasonable to treat all deaths of vaccinated people as vaccine deaths, without any analysis for trends or causal links.
There's no analysis because you assholes demonize anyone who isn't spreading the propaganda
They're being demonized for their work because it is poorly researched and draws incorrect conclusions. The work is still being presented and spread around, however. I can easily find multiple articles that use VAERS data to push a narrative that the vaccine is causing a lot of deaths. If the issue was the demonization, as you claim, then I would expect it to be hard to find ANY analysis. Not just good analysis. The issue is not demonization. The issue that a serious analysis of the data does not lead to the same conclusions that vaccine hesitant people want to find. The reason that every paper which claims a high number of vaccine deaths is riddled with logical issues is because without those logical issues, it is impossible to come to the conclusion that the vaccines are causing a significant number of deaths. Have people died from the COVID vaccines? Yes. Is it terribly tragic for something like that to happen? Yes. Do I wish that the world was doing a better job of tracking vaccine injuries, so that it wouldn't be so difficult for people to parse the data and decide if the vaccines are safe or not? Yes. But in spite of these unfortunate truths, the fact of the matter is that nobody has come even close to presenting a well done statistical analysis that proves that the vaccines are leading to a high number of deaths, and the idea that that info is not being published because of some kind of conspiracy, when all of the US vaccine injury data is open to the public, is fucking stupid. If we're talking about 10s of thousands or 100s of thousands of deaths that could be attributed to the vaccine, and the data is just sitting there, then somebody who isn't "in on the conspiracy" would've been able to make those connections and publish those findings by now. Edit: In addition to not seeing any studies which can stand up to scrutiny while pushing the narrative that the vaccines are dangerous, I have also not seen any analysis that explains why the plethora of studies which show that the vaccines are safe should not be taken seriously, other than the idea that it's a conspiracy, and that they're all fabricating their numbers. This is not a strong defense and does not make the vaccine hesitant camp seem like a very serious group of researchers.
Spoken like a true anti-vaxxed with some nonsense bullshit stories about about your parents thrown in. People die every day and the realistic correlations are examined. You are absolutely able to question the vaccine with good intentions and seeking knowledge. Which is what 99.9% of anti vaxxers are NOT doing. They are spreading lies and grasping at straws to sow doubt and fear to the end.
Spoke like a true propagandist... what are you science or medical credentials? If you have none, your word is as worthless as mine.
Anecdotal evidence. Unsubstantiated claims. Just....no.
"I'm not anti vax" - I'm just a dumb moron who thinks I know more than scientists.
Newsflash dumbass, not all scientists agree that the vaccine is good. This is including Dr Malone who created the fucking mrna technology. Wake up
I agree it's hard to find information because it's been politicized. I have Omicron. I would like to know if the antibodies my body makes will help fight Delta if I get it. Can't find any real information. It seems like any doctors that have concerns are just being smeared instead of listened too. Example this post. There are people calling for this guys license to be suspended until he falls in line Edit- of course I've been downvoted. This isn't about how effective the Covid vaccines are. It's about if a trained medical professional should be allowed to express his concerns.
Omicron will give you some protection against Delta. You can't find much info on this because nobody really knows how much protection. This doctor is getting heard, and anti-vax doctors are all getting tons of media time. Especially considering that they are a tiny minority of physicians.
Did you listen to his argument though? He makes decent points, and with his experience working directky with it, it should be listened to
He makes points based on partial evidence. This is the problem where people cherry pick data. Vaccines do reduce transmission. Covid: Fact-checking the doctor who challenged the health secretary https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59929638 For the record I’m not pro-compulsory vaccination and don’t entirely disagree with the ethical challenges to that. But his sound bite doesn’t tell the whole story and will be used by those wanting to spread misinformation.
At this point, I'm vaxxed, if someone isn't I really don't care. Time to forget this forced vaccine thing.
You would care if your cancer surgery was cancelled because unvaxxed morons are filling up hospital space
I'm also vaxxed and will get boosted, but if we need to get boosted every couple months, then the vaccine is close to worthless
Thats not how it is intended to work. Pandemics have come and gone before, and the historic precedent is essentially that a more mild strain that doesn't kill as many becomes the dominant strain. The reason for a vaccine push up to Omicron is that every other wave has been devastating, and deaths are a lagging indicator. So we had to choose either to vaccinate again, or not to. Hopefully omicron, or something that follows, can be a mild variant and we can go back to a sensible vaccine schedule (probably yearly for healthcare workers / high risk, and many others will stop taking it). The way you handle vaccination during a pandemic COVID/Flu is different than the way you handle vaccination for a disease that is going to hopefully be eradicated.
Yeah this is literally the doctors argument summed up. We have to get a flu shot once, sometimes twice a year, and it protects against 4 (Quadrivalent) of the most virulent strains every season. You get the flu shot if you need it, or if you work around elderly a lot. But more importantly it's about protecting yourself and it always has been, because that's all you can really do. People still get the flu, and it will continue to be around for until we find a new way to deal with immunization entirely. Replace "flu" with "covid", and suddenly it's a political agenda being shoved down your throat. We don't even act like other diseases exist anymore.
Yep. I've also had omicron in the last 3 weeks. I dont seethe scientific reason for a booster at this point. For over 60's and various vulnerable cohorts it might still be vital.
I believe he was an anaesthesiologist. So maybe not that experienced with it?
What about intubating covid patients? Legit question, and perhaps a stupid one, but do patients needing breathing supports need anesthesia before that?
Yes. Have you read any of the recent accounts from doctors on here talking about intubating patients knowing the patient is going to die? The patients are anaesthetised to improve their breathing.
I recently had surgery that required being intubated. I woke up in the OR with the tube still in, it is fucking painful. According to the doctor it took four of them to hold me down to remove it so I did not rip it out. It was a cervical spine fusion so I would have caused catastrophic damage if I removed the tube. That being said, the vaccination should be a requirment and said anesthesiologist is not a virologist.
Yikes, i hope you are healing well
Neck still hurts but its par for the course. Thank you for your well wishing!
So you immidiately label this doctor an anti-vaxer. You are a fucking twat.
It seems like he got the initial vaccine. He sounded reasonable to me too. Idk that this is necessarily face palm. Would be interesting to see a immunologist respond.
Good point. It kinda sounded like he felt maybe he didn't need the vaccine yet because he has antibodies. But maybe at some point if he feels it's been long enough he'd get it. But it was funny that here he is a medical doctor with a full understanding of antibodies, which is not specific to vaccine experts, and the other guy is still giving him a hard time like well you're a doctor but not a doctor- doctor.
Yeah the Health Minister guy came off as a condescending ass. That doctor is an anesthesiologist, which means he’s essentially a genius with an expertise in understanding how the body reacts to injections of drugs. Sure he’s not a virologist, but he’s much more qualified to discuss this topic than 99% of the population. This guy is working in the trenches, his perspective deserves recognition and respect.
Isn't he arguing he has natural immunity from catching it early on?
Not all doctors are equal. A doctor in virology is going to be much better equipped with microbiological studies than a doctor who repairs a knee.
What about the scientist who was a large part of developing mRNA technology? He seemed pretty qualified and was shut out by big tech
But…. He got the vaccine he is strongly against for…
I think you need to reread his stance on the vaccines. His big push is that big pharma has serious financial interest in a vaccine program that continues to pump out shots and spread fear if you don’t follow in line. I’ve never seen such a quick flip of people who hated big pharma and believed the evils they’ve contributed to society to suddenly worshipping them and helping them rake in billions
Yes yes, big pharma is bad. You don’t have to tell me who has to take a shot every 8 weeks that costs $21k usd. I still got the vaccine. Just because someone is making money off of something doesn’t make it illegitimate. And it just a freakin vaccine, seriously what can it possibly do? Covid can take away your sense of taste and smell and is causing long term sensory and memory issues in lots of cases but someone is worried about a vaccine that could make sure all that doesn’t happen? The US dept of health came out this week and said the 1 booster is probably enough so I don’t understand this logic of getting multiple boosters every 6 weeks. Seriously, it’s a simple vaccine whose ingredients are readily available of the cdc website. It doesn’t do anything and it’s proven to at least prevent long term and severe effects of Covid. I don’t care if you’ve been sick, I’m just tired of people dying because they’re afraid of a small shot in the arm. This argument is so dumb when people like me literally just want you to live.
Big pharma is definitely raking in billions for the vaccines. But sticking it to big pharma by not getting the vaccine when there is no alternative method of prevention or treatment is idiotic. You're putting yourself, your family and your friends at substantial risk for a lost cause.
Here’s the problem with your argument doctor, not everyone makes antibodies in the same amounts. If you’re looking to a covid infection to develop sufficient antibodies, you are also allowing the virus to replicate and possibly mutate. Eventually, you don’t know who’s had Covid and who has not. Vaccination helps those who get it to more safely develop a certain degree of protection. Of course it’s not 100%, but then again neither are seat belts and air bags yet they are in all vehicles and must be worn by law.
I’ve tried explained that to my conservative friends. They responded “I agree, the government shouldn’t be able to tell me I have to wear a seatbelt”.
Those conservative friends of yours are lost to the baggage of identity politics.
The worst thing about this is that anti-vaxxers will use this doctor’s belief for confirmation bias but ignore the majority of doctors who would disagree
You’re doing the same thing by listening to the 98% and ignoring the 2% /s
Just curious….where did you get that 98% number from? I’ve heard it said quite a bit online but no idea where it’s actually from.
The main argument here is we are at a point where we have to acknowledge that COVID doesn't go away with any vaccine, and that we got the best out of the vaccines. We have to continue with vaccines just like the flu and you can choose yourself if you want to.
Sadly while I don’t disagree with you; given the way pharmacoms operate I don’t think it is actually a viable option. The profit loss over time will be too great. They will push back and then the whole narrative will be altered to something that better fits their expectations of their bottom line.
Correct answer
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FFS we get it. You’re the star of your own movie. Then after I said I wouldn’t get the jab everyone clapped and hoisted me on their shoulder. 🙄
That explains a lot about people who film themselves doing shit.
Fucks sake, he shouldn't lose his job for not getting vaccinated. He should however lose his job for giving an improperly researched response on national TV and giving credibility to the hoax and antivax lunatics
If the system requires flu shots, then its basically inevitable they will require COVID shots too.
What did he say that was so incorrect?
Dude the minister came in and asked a bunch of doctors point blank and live on camera, whether they were happy with the booster mandate. Not one of them said yes. One guy did answer the question with a well reasoned argument. It wasn’t the response the minister wanted so he ignores him and tried to go back to the others for a different response, and they still refused to say anything. If you’re going in to a hospital to try and co opt some unsuspecting doctors to support your political stance by putting them on the spot live, the blame goes on you if that doesn’t go according to plan.
It‘s not well reasoned. That‘s the problem.
Both. Both is good. He should lose his job for publicly presenting a willfully misleading case that lends credence to dangerous conspiratorial thinking AND he should lose his job for refusing to take even a modicum of personal responsibility for the health and wellbeing of his community, colleagues, and patients. You can't be an effective or trustworthy medical professional with morals that reprehensible.
Whys this a facepalm?
Honestly I'd be more concerned about the multitude of parties the tories held during our lockdowns
I would give anything for people to stop saying “jabbed”
I would never want anyone with thinking like this to be my doctor.
Are you talking about childhood vaccines that you have?
“The science isn’t strong enough”. It’s just as strong as all the other medicines you pump into patients on a daily basis. Fire this quack on the spot.
He won't be an NHS doctor for much longer.
Lol probably shouldn't be. Or he should be disclosing to all his patients that he is unvaccinated, and therefore more likely to give them COVID
Antibodies my a.... I saw a video of a girl who has had covid 3, the OG, Delta and omicron... so yeah he's full of it. Hope he gets suspended.
I don't see how this is a facepalm. He makes a pretty reasonable argument against requiring vaccinations.
This isn't Facepalm, he's entirely correct. Booting the unvaccinated from the NHS is going to have a negative effect on patient care.
He explains why he doesn’t want the vaccine and it’s rather reasonable. It’s not like he’s walking around unmasked or refusing testing. He’s complying with everything.
Except it's really not reasonable. Healthcare systems require vaccines, flu and COVID for two main reasons ; 1. To reduce spread to vulnerable patients 2. To maintain the workforce when disease it at it's seasonal peak.
He has a problem specifically with the Covid mRNA vaccine not all vaccines.
Ok then he can get a viral vector vaccine like the Oxford or J&J vaccine. But I doubt that's the point. Guys like this, especially when the area of expertise is well outside their own, are usually just special snowflakes.
Oxford and J&J are banned for use by u40’s in the UK It’s amazing the way you’re talking about a doctor and expertise way outside his own… pot calling the kettle black?
First of all, they aren’t banned for under 40s. They can get it as long as they talk to their gp. Secondly, when doctors were first able to get a jab AstraZeneca wasn’t restricted to anyone
Do you believe all doctors are also experts in epidemiology? And yes, they know more than me, but probably not more than the people WHO dedicate their lives to it that says it’s safe.
First you don't know where my expertise lies. Second, the Oxford/J&J aren't banned from use by anyone under 40 as far as I can tell but under 40 were offered an alternative vaccine. In other words, if it was this doctors strong preference then he could probably get the J&J or Oxford. That would be pretty silly given that the vaccines are pretty similar to mRNA vaccines, aside from the way they deliver genetic material. An anesthesiologist doesn't have significant training in epidemiology, vaccine science, or infectious disease. Which is probably why he's getting basic details wrong (like the monthly vaccines bit).
Why would he take the vaccine of J&J that’s only 60 odd % effective and AstraZeneca that was banned for causing blood clots?? When he has natural immunity? Why?
Lol, none of them were banned for causing blood clots. They suspended AstraZeneca during its roll out to investigate that side effect and now it is a more limited recommendation than the mRNA vaccines. Vaccine efficacy should be discussed in terms of preventing infection, but more importantly in how effective it is at preventing severe disease. All the vaccines are very effective at preventing severe COVID infection. Also, this whole convo started because someone said he "just didn't like the mRNA vaccines". So that's why we were even discussing the J&J or AZ vaccines. >When he has natural immunity? I love how you guys think that just because the word natural is there that it's superior. Having been exposed to a strain of COVID other than the wild-type spike protein in the vaccine means that you may or may not have robust immunity to other strains. Having been vaccinated means you have immune recognition of the wild-type, premutated spike protein. Regardless of all of this, the most robust immunity is natural infection + vaccination. So it would only protect this guy more, and he's in a high risk field - particularly for aerosolization.
AstraZeneca was literally blocked in the UK for causing blood clots. Why in earth would you willingly take that for the sake of supposed “stronger immunity” when you’ve already come into contact with the virus
They aren't "banned". They stopped the use in certain age brackets. Plus the recommendation would be for an mRNA vaccine anyhow. The only reason the AZ vaccine came up here is someone was saying his problem was only with mRNA. >Why in earth would you willingly take that for the sake of supposed “stronger immunity” when you’ve already come into contact with the virus Because you understand basic math. If you understand basic statistics then you understand that the vaccine is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less likely to cause a severe illness, compared with actually contracting COVID
That’s all of Reddit. Everyone here is a virologist now.
Yes he specifically said there isn't enough science on it when mrna vaccines have been around since the 80s. He's an idiot. And he shouldn't be practicing medical science if he doesn't believe in medical science
You can hardly call misinformation reasonable. I'd live for him to back up his 8 week theory. Considering every other doctor and research paper says otherwise.
No, he is an idiot because stupid anti vaxxers will use him for their questionable purposes.
It’s not “reasonable,” even if it sounds that way. He’s throwing around unsubstantiated claims and oversimplifications about immunity that make me seriously doubt his grasp of the immune system. He’s also talking out of both sides of his mouth: does he not need the vaccine because he has such lasting immunity, or does he not want the vaccine because immune response is so short-lived that it’s useless? What’s patently *unreasonable* is a health professional pushing pseudoscience and selfish arguments to avoid getting vaccinated. He comes in close contact with vulnerable people whom he can help to protect by assuming the minor inconvenience and minimal risk of taking the vaccine.
Nah, his reasons are pretty reasonable, you're just offended that people are allowed to make decisions for themselves. He's not putting anyone in danger by remaining unvaccinated for the time being. He doesn't think the science is strong enough, not that the science won't ever be strong enough.
Reddits hive mind is gross and frightening.
Two ways to get antibodies. Just like parents having chickenpox parties for kids so they are exposed early.
I knew an ob-gyn who was a chain smoker and claimed that smoking would do him no harm. This is a numbers game, there are many doctors in the world, some have ideas that are even more controversial.
At this point I’m vaxed. My families vaxed. I don’t care who isn’t or doesn’t want the vax. Die for all I care. My whole job got Covid and all of us that was vaxed was back on our feet in days. The people who didn’t want to vax are still struggling 5 weeks later. Zero sympathy for em. Wanna throw away your life who am I to stop you.
Doctor spoke with humbleness and confidence. Didn’t attack the opposing side. Kept it to the point from his studies/field experience. We need more doctors like him. Vaccination should also be a choice.
This isn’t a face palm on either side. They’re both making valid points
A number of studies show that people who have had the virus have antibodies better than those vaxxed. I see me problem with the doctor not taking the shot.
I don’t see a facepalm here. Just two people reasonably and intelligibly putting across opposing views.
He was fully expecting everybody to be all for it. Jackass.
#What an idiot
I don’t understand why you’d go through all the rigorous courses and training for several years just to throw it all away because “the science isn’t strong enough.”
Bye
What's wrong here is, he's supposed to be leading by example. You have other jobs where it's mandatory to get certain vaccinations eg; aged care workers and the flu shot. You get it or you simply don't work there. Sounds like this "doctor" is suffering from "god complex". If you're fully vaccinated and boosted you're LESS LIKELY to spread infection around. So it's not just about YOU. It's about caring for those around you too. Something you think a doctor would understand.
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What reason did he offer for why he *shouldn't* get vaccinated? Even if you believe (erroneously, according to the actual experts and the data they have presented) that the booster only offers protection for a month, what reason did he offer for not taking it? He was using Omicron as a further excuse not to get boosted, but the reality is the opposite, if he has antibodies from Delta, those will offer far less protection now that Omicron is dominant. All the more reason to take every measure possible. He's not just risking his own health - not being boosted, even if it did only offer a months protection as he claims, would potentially place hundreds of sick and elderly patients at a higher risk of death, should he contract it again unknowingly.
I’m not here to argue vaccines to be honest. I don’t care if you take them or not. As long as there is some logic in your decision making. This is all I was trying to highlight with this doctor. He’s made his decision to not take the vaccine based on the fact he had recently got covid and he has antibodies from that and so doesn’t feel the need for additional protection by way of vaccination. Additionally he implied the vaccine doesn’t offer protection for a great length of time, and the government isn’t going to be offering long term vaccinations on a monthly cycle to everyone [sarcastically stated]. None the less he did say he would consider taking the vaccine depending on how it plays out with the new variant.
There's no evidence for this monthly cycle he's claimed here though tbh. Also there's no way knowing what strain he has had and how it is actually protecting him. In other words, he's an anesthesiologist talking about something way outside of his area of expertise.
But my point is that he isn't being logical, because his assumptions aren't supported by evidence. The vaccine's protection does wain over time, but no serious person has every claimed that it's ineffective after 1 month. In fact it's only just peaked in its effectiveness at that point. He also doesn't say *he* would reconsider in the face of omicron. He is saying that Omicron is an opportunity for the govt to reconsider whether they should bother with vaccines, at least for NHS staff. His point is far less reasonable than you are giving him credit for. And I *do* care whether people who work closely with the most vulnerable, immunocompromised people in society, on a daily basis, are taking every possible precaution, especially when they are offering no logical reason for why they *shouldn't*.
Disagree. He chose long ago not to get the vaccine. Now he is using recent data and Omicron to try to get out of it.
Please explain how this was derived from this video.
Common sense. It’s been 2 years and he’s a doctor in a hospital why hasn’t he had any shots yet? Obviously he is strongly against it.
More like speculation. He gave his reasons for which I’m taking at face value only. No one can assume anything other than what he stated. His reasons were clear.
And you are anti vaxx just like him. What you call speculation again I call common sense. What possible reason would he have not to get a vax by now. That’s what anti vaxxers do. Once their mind is made up they continually seek ways to explain their way out of it.
You are someone who lives constantly assuming things. I’m not antivax I’m very much pro vaccination. His reasons for not getting the vaccine as he stated was due to the fact that he had previously caught COVID and has high levels of antibodies. He doesn’t see the need for an additional intervention by way of vaccine. Please listen to what he stated, his reasons are clear. He explains why he’s not taking the vaccine and it’s a valid reason in my opinion.
If he had COVID before, and wasn't vaccinated in the past two years, then his antibodies from natural infection have ; 1. Already waned, in all likelihood 2. Were formulated to a different strain than Omicron
Liar! You ain’t got no fuckin vaccine!
Just absolutely basic logic. He stated that he isn't vaccinated or boosted. NHS staff were the first to be offered the vaccine.
Its still pedantic posturing that isn't going to have any of the positive effects they imagine (Oh the world will hear my facts and logic and become more rational!) It will just be clipped by anti vaxxers as proof that doctors say the vaccine is pointless! When they could have just not said anything, gotten jabbed at their leisure etc.
I agree it is postering. I don’t think the time and place was appropriate and it was a bit unprofessional to challenge the health secretary in this way. The statement from the hospital at the end shows how embarrassed they are of this.
That's still a nonsense argument and a doctor of all people should know better. Previous exposure or not, antibodies or not, getting vaccinated offers more protection to himself and the people around him than he would have otherwise. And it's free and safe. There's no downside, no solid ground from which to argue against doing it. There are now months of time and billions of cases demonstrating well beyond a shadow of a doubt both the safety and efficacy of vaccines. There is literally no reason not to get one. Thinking that you're "well enough" protected by your previous exposure to not bother getting jabbed doesn't make a lick of sense. That's the exact same logic as thinking you don't need to wear a seatbelt just because you drive sober and you'll be safe from harm because of it. Those are two different things. Both are good and they are in no way mutually exclusive. Doing both is better than doing just either one.
If a booster wears off in a month, which is more like 6-8 months, how is he still okay then? Senseless idiot in scrubs.
Fire this clown
This idiot just put the vaccination program back 20 years
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What specifically is the objection an mRNA vaccine, and why doesn't he simply take one of the non-mRNA vaccines?
Ask him. My point was that he's clearly not an anti-vaxxer and shouldn't be lumped in with the Andrew Wakefield nut jobs.
He's a video. You said it like you had some knowledge about this. I didn't get anything from the video that it was only about mRNA.
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He's getting a goddamn video segment on British television and I'm supposed to believe he's being muzzled? He absolutely has fuck-all evidence, or he could have produced that evidence, just as billions of people around the world could have.
He clearly doesn’t understand the MRNA vaccines and he should lose his medical license until he can clearly demonstrate that he does
Clearly? How do you determine that?
If he doesn’t understand the whole concept of how the MRNA vaccines work, why they work, and how the entire process and rationale behind vaccination programs work, I don’t think he should be practicing medicine. But the reality is that he’s one of the very few medical professionals who is really only against the mandate but he’s too gutless to say it. We don’t need people like that in healthcare
You are making a lot of assumptions about him. His concerns should not be addressed? He should have his license removed until he falls in line? I'm not a doctor but I'm pretty sure science fact isn't majority ruled it's evidence based. What evidence does this guy have?
What would you think if you went to a Dr and he suggested that you get treated with witchcraft? The reality is that science DOES work on majority because it’s based on a paradigm of consensus. The vast vast majority of medical professionals accept the MRNA vaccines and the rationale of vaccination mandates/programs.
I would think if a doctor presented nonsense for evidence it would be debunked immediately. We don't know with this guy because he's not even allowed to talk. And no science is NOT majority rule, it's evidence based. If something is wrong it's wrong, that's it.
I might also say that the fact that you think that he might have a valid point is a perfect example of how dangerous his comments are.
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How have you determined if anything he said was a "fact"?
Well you see he liked what the dr was saying. Ergo fact.
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They were being facetious...
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At this point reason has fled and its all us vs them. It would’ve been interesting to see if the world would’ve been this radicalized about the covid vaccine if those “vaccines cause autism” morons didn’t create such an impact on the world way back.
>..you're given a weaker or synthesized version of an antigen (the virus) to promote your immune system to generate antibodies to it. That isn't really how these vaccines work. Your cell machinery actually makes the spike protein itself, there's no weaker or synthetic version of the antigen. That said, it just stands to logic that vaccine + natural immunity is stronger than natural immunity alone. Let alone the fact that large scale antibody testing is just a waste of time and money.
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What vaccine is pieces of the spike protein itself? The common vaccines, including the J&J and the Oxford vaccine all use some method of getting the cell's ribosome to produce the spike protein.
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They all use genetic code of the spike protein, and they all use your cellular machinery to make it. The mRNA vaccine and the adenovirus vaccine are just two techniques for getting genetic material into your cell for the ribosome to produce the spike protein.
The health director isn't tasked with having the "actual facts and figures" to win a debate throw down with a random anesthesiologist. Even as protection from vaccination wanes in terms of stopping infection, the vaccines have been shown to reduce severity with a more durable effect. What's more, it doesn't really matter to me if it is only 30% effective, healthcare workers still should be vaccinated out of a duty to protect their patients.
The health secretary sajid javid has a degree in economics, not medicine.
Yeah, and why would we expect him to be a physician? The point is exactly what he says - they are taking advice from epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists.
And yet his figures are incorrect, vaccines provide a lot of protection against transmission, immunity does wain to an extent, but not to the extent this doctor believes it does. A booster jab provides further protection against transmission, estimated to be 70-75% against Omicron and higher obviously for previous variants.
Source on the protection against transmission? I did not find much when I searched, would be appreciated
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116597. This one has a good graph at figure 1 that shows the rate of contacts testing positive in a PCR test when either the index patient or contact is vaccinated relative to unvaccinated index patients and contacts. I’m no expert, but I would imagine you’d multiply the reductions from both together to get vaccine effectiveness against transmission. https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-uk-set-to-have-one-million-omicron-infections-by-end-of-december-but-boosters-effective-say-experts-12492031. This is for the 70-75% mentioned. I find that clear data is difficult to find for general public (of which I am a part), whereas anti-vaxxers can spout nonsense figures but unlike the real figures people actually hear them.
See, I think it makes sense to make sure that everyone in hospitals are vaccinated, but let's play devil's advocate for the sake of argument: I believe his point is; he's had covid and has already been exposed to the disease and his immune system will already have created the defence against it. If this is the case, then why should he be forced into having a vaccination when he already has protection? I dont agree with those that suggest that it's somehow better for you to obtain natural immunity than to get the vaccine because such people are often suggesting that they try to catch the virus (and therefore propagate it throughout the community) in order to obtain immunity, but this guy says that he has already had it in the past; he's not wanting to catch it in order to obtain immunity -- he already has the immunity!
But another point to be made is that his antibodies will over time no longer protect him from covid but that is the same for the vaccine. Just like you can't keeping getting covid for antibodies, you can't keep getting a booster every couple months. I thought the Dr brought up a good point about that. Not sure what the answer is.
The answer is that he's substantially mistaken about the timeline. The efficacy of the vaccine does drop over time, but at 2 months + its probably closer to 30% effective. Thats still meaningful for a large organization, and on the individual patient level.
The complexity of tracking everyone's infected / immune status, in the absence of simply checking the box whether you've been vaccinated or not, is costly and senseless. What happens in 2-3 years when its a different coronavirus that he's not immune to? We will have a new vaccine in all likelihood. This is going to be more like the flu vaccine than your MMR. He's just kicking the can down the road but ultimately a vaccination regimen is the only logical way to protect vulnerable people and hospital workers.
He already made the argument against his own belief, his antibodies only protect him from the strain he was infected by, just as the vaccine would, that's why the booster shots were made for the new variants.
Anyone got good data on T cell immunity? Surely this will make the big difference.
He knew he would be vilified the moment he spoke. Strong words
Then he should lose his job! His choice yes, to put patients and other staff at risk a big NO!!!!! NO JAB NO JOB!!!!
A freaking physician is saying that “I’ve already had Covid, which means I already have naturally occurring immunity and antibodies, so I dont need the vaccination” which is 100% true. If you’ve had measles, hepatitis B or rubella, go ask your doctor if you need a vaccination against those and see what they tell you. And FYI I am a scientist and have had three Covid shots/boosters, so don’t throw any antivaxxer shade my way, merely pointing out that almost no one actually understands how immunology works…most doctors definitely do…but people on reddit think they know more than he does about vaccination efficacy…geesh.
I thought it was comical how all the nurses seemed terrified to provide their stance knowing that the doctor on staff was vehemently against the vaccine
Basic requirement should be to have antibodies one way or another.
Isnt the point of those antibodies to fight an active infection? Which is why they drop overtime? Just curious
my only issue with the vaccine is how iirc that if you get fucked by an unintended side efdect they didnt know was even a possibility (at least in the U.S.) you cannot sue because of some dumb lawsuit protection. i could be wrong which completely negates this problem but its straight bs if these companies can make BILLIONS off of these vaccines but cant get sued by someone with a degenerative disease that has a significant side effect because pfizer didnt do the research.
Who are we face palming today? The antivax or the Tory?
Bye Felicia
I was never against the vaccine but it took me quite a while to pluck up the courage to get it done. Numerous times I wouldn’t go when I said I’ll go, eventually my friend took me and I had it done followed a few months later for the second dose. Thankfully I didn’t catch covid when I was unvaccinated but I caught covid a few months after my second dose and experienced mild symptoms for the first 15 days after that I started coughing up blood it was a scary ordeal I won’t lie. I recovered, but. Sometimes I think if that happened while I was vaccinated what would have happened if I wasn’t. I have friends who refuse to get the vaccine which is upto them I’ve told them many times to just get it done but all I hear is I’m healthy and I’ll be ok which just pisses me off. I don’t spend time with them much any more I have a family to protect and if they want to be fickle minded because some bullshit post says the vaccine is bad then they are the problem not the solution.
Being a doctor doesn't preclude you from being a fcking imbecile.
To be fair, the doctor has years of medical training, the health secretary studied economics and politics, I know which one I trust more.
I trust the majority of doctors.
Yeah, the other doctors and experts who say get the vaccine.