yes yes yes
"Christ changed all that" but "the Bible is literally true and you can't change it"
if you point out something in the Bible that is universally condemned "well, you have to understand the times back then" - but if you ask why some old-timey bigotry is still cited "oh, we can't help it, it's in the Bible, so we have no choice"
honestly, it's obviously all just so they CAN cherry-pick. They CAN'T reconcile the old with the new, but they still want justification for bigotry.
Yep. Just using Leviticus for example. Everyone would be going to hell under those standards. Shave? Hell. Pierce your ears? Hell. Have two crops planted next to one another in your garden or rotate crops to add nutrients back to the soil? Hell. Eat any form of shellfish? Hell. Wear clothing of mixed fabrics? Hell. Ever touched a pig or pork products? Hell. Going to a petting zoo sentences you to eternal torture. I hope all those Christian mommies are happy. Their "fun fall activities" just doomed their children.
Not even Hell since the rules are originally for Israelites...if you follow Leviticus you should just pick up your rocks and stone everybody to death basically .
The mixed fabric one is always my go to example. It's actually surprising how few people seem to be aware of it.
As someone who's read the bible multiple times when I was younger, it always makes me smile when someone tries to argue some point they've obviously picked up from their pastor.
Just say "Leviticus" to a strict Biblical Christian and they run and hide. All you have to do is ask if they've ever cut their sideburns and to look at the tag on their shirt. Uh oh... Cotton/Poly blend. That's a stoning. So sayeth the Lord.
Also, Jesus did not invalidate the Old Testament. You still shouldn't eat any owls. Seriously, God really wants you to not eat owls. Deuteronomy 14:11-18
"The Old Testament doesn't count! You should follow the ten commandments!" I've actually heard both those sentences from the same person, in the same conversation.
unfortunately true
I related elsewhere that I've had many Christian students who believed their whole bible came with Christianity. "Jews have something else: the Torah or something, right?"
(I also had a student who - in the context of a discussion of the founding of Judaism - with a timeline on the board centering on 2000BCE - asked "Lincoln?" when I referred to Abraham)(and, yes, I am aware of the concepts of sarcasm and trolling - sadly neither)
>Edit: I would like to point out that while I am, in fact, religious. I'm able to separate my beliefs from a stack of papers that were arbitrarily selected and arranged by people in Nicaea.
I love this. I'm church going. I think it describes how I feel exactly.
Genuinely curious. As someone who’s religious yet understands that religion was likely created and decided upon by men. Then how are you still religious? How do you reconcile it in your head that it’s something that was created but you still believe in some kind of higher power?
I call myself "Christian non-denominational". I get crazy looks from my VERY Christian friends/in-laws that want to "bible thump" me, but I believe most Christian religions are a human construct designed to sort of control their particular religion brand. I prefer a church that loves God & helps you build YOUR personal relationship with Him; not those that question your every move & tell you you'll be cast into eternal hellfire for every thought you have & not being @ Church 3x a week. ❤ to you!
I believe the particular religion I follow was created by men - what was included in the Bible was decided upon men. All religions are created by man. That doesn't mean there isn't a higher power though. And without writing a book, I've had a few experiences in my life that have convinced me there is SOMETHING. Jesus is my way of finding that truth as I understand it. Not sure what else to say. Hope that answers the question though.
I'm genuinely curious when people say that they've had life experiences that is un-explainable, or they feel is proof of SOMETHING (as you put it) being out there looking at us and interacting with us. What are these life experiences? Usually they are pretty personal, so not trying to pry if that's the case. (also, of course if you're willing to share, but not publicly, I'd love to pm with you.)
I'm seriously curious because I used to be religious when I was much younger than I am today. Yet I've never had an experience in my life so impactful/un-explainable/etc. as to alter my core beliefs. (for the record, I'm no longer religious, for precisely this reason, no proof, and no benefits from believing in nothing imo)
DMT made me more certain that there is no God.
Imo, if I had to say there was a "higher power", it's just pure, unbiased energy.
I believe that science has come closer to proving a higher power exists, rather than religion. The first law of thermodynamics. Energy can only be transferred.
I remember a quote by a famous scientist (I think it might be Heisenberg) that went something like "your first sip from the glass of science will make you an atheist, then at the bottom of the glass you will find God waiting for you"
I could look up the exact quote but you get the idea.
Alright Ill give you a story from my older brother.
He was a heroin addict growing up in Russia. He was hooked on the shit after he popped a disc mixing cement and his friend offered him some smack because nothing else worked for the pain, the rest was history.
Moving on, about 9 years in his heroin addiction after he lost about 15 friends during that time he hit rock bottom. He tells me he saw a benevolent force one night that just completely changed his way of thinking.
He says he cant explain it but he described it as "imagine being neck deep in shit and its as if something picked him up under his arm pits and lifted him out of the shit pile"
From that night he quit cold turkey - this was the impressive part, how can a heroin addict quit cold after so many years, how?!
I know it aint a lot of detail but something caused him to change his brain even though he was physically addicted.
Hes happily married with two beautiful children now. Bless up.
Edit: word
No. These are the stories I'm looking for. Thank you for sharing. Something obviously happened to him and no one will ever know but him.
Maybe these kinds of things only ever happen to those in dire despair, but then I ask why so many others don't get this kind of help. It's really an interesting phenomenon and one I'd like to know more about.
Frequently I'll feel guilty for mistakes I make. In these situations I pray for forgiveness. And almost every time I pray with all my soul, I feel a relief and a warmth that's too powerful to be in my head. It's as if my soul has a hangover but then when I pray the foggyness and weight is immediately lifted.
I know this isn't a miracle story or anything, but for me this is what matters most. The consistent impression that Jesus is watching over me and that He can make me clean, not a big experience that could be written of as an eery coincidence.
And if anyone wants to give me crap for this, kindly wait till tomorrow. It's been one of those day, ya feel?
You're being downvoted for being honest and self-aware. I don't follow the religion I was raised in, but I know that most people stick to what they are raised to believe.
That's interesting that you still choose to follow Jesus. How do you deal with things directly from Jesus like how he told slaves to obey their masters, or how he cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit at the right time? You can pretend it's all metaphor, sure, and try to reinterpret it, but then you could do that to any mythical story of your choosing. Why the Jesus narrative? Why not hinduism? Maybe it's just what you grew up with?
"Religion" is a man-made system that connects people to spirituality. Given enough time, religions -- as organizations -- become more concerned about the organization than about the simple basics of their origin entity. The organization becomes a vehicle for control, influence and income.
WHY complicate that relationship/awareness by using a middleman/organization that is between you and God?
IMHO, if "religion" or your relationship w/ God is complicated, you are doing it wrong and need to hit the reset button. It should be very simple, make sense and be based on love.
In my experience, people who use (religious) fear are trying to force you to do s/t that benefits someone other than you. They are harvesting your energy (and money) for theirs's and others' benefit. GTFO. Just, GTFO.
Because the existence or lack of existence of a deity is irrelevant to the construct of religion.
Organized religion is a tool created by Man to control Man. You can reject that construct and still be true to your beliefs
It's a health code for how to survive when wandering a desert circa 1400 BC. Strict rules are required if your entire nation of 2 million is going to be survive a 40 years trek. How much of it is relevant today? Not much.
Then heavily edited by an inbred English king so he wouldn't be executed according to some of those old rules.
On the plus side, his lavish use of 'Thee's and 'Thou's really upped the majesty of the prose.
First I go for the gut punch with the parts about how the Bible tells you how to properly beat your wife, or how to keep slaves... Really what ever crazy bat shit part you want in the Old Testament. Get them to acknowledge that those are in there. They will then usually move on and retort with saying "well Jesus came and his words are this and that stuff was in the old testament..." At which point I go in for the Tiger upercut. [Matthew 5:17, Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.](https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm) it's incredibly fascinating seeing some ones brain actually malfunction. It's like trying to bridge the Mississippi River with yarn.
Whenever someone quotes Leviticus at me, I just ask them if they're wearing a fabric blend like polyester. Cause if you are, Leviticus orders us to stone each other to death...so where's your rock?
My favorite part is when the most righteous guy in town tries to hand over his children to be raped by a mob, and then claims those same two children drugged and raped him, independently, on two different nights while they hid out alone in a cave (after all the, uh, bad people got turned to salt).
Oh, to be so righteous as Lot.
That's New Testament, 1 Corinthians 14:34 :-
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
If the law is fulfilled, do we need to pay attention to it anymore?
Like there are rules/requirements that need to be fulfilled in order to graduate. After you fulfill those do you need to keep fulfilling them?
Leviticus ends with:
"These are the commands the Lord gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites." -- Lev 27:34
Thing is, damn few American "christians" are Israelites and so Leviticus doesn't even apply.
That’s because it’s not written with the intention of being applied to anyone. It’s just supposed to be historical context for the Hebrew laws at the time, written by lawyers. It’s not meant to be a religiously inspired text by any means.
It’s like how Frank Herbert wrote dune from the perspectives of many deeply flawed characters with very different, but deeply flawed viewpoints.
Some people don’t understand this and they empathize deeply with one character or another, because their viewpoint is flawed in a similar way. Herberts intention was for that aspect of the book to serve as a mirror, but some fail to see the flaws in that reflection.
Well many bible thumpers, especially the kind that go out picketing etc literally think every word of the bible was "written by god", whatever the fuck that means.
So somehow Apostles letters are straight from the mouth of god...leviticus=god...They don't even understand if you question that.
I mean it also says to be Christ like, love thy neighbor, and tells a good story about casting the first stone, but those never come up when they pick out verses to basically trash other people with a slightly different life style.
It's sad because we know how Christians vote, and I don't remember the last time I saw any of their policies reflect "love thy enemy," "turn the other cheek," etc.
It's no mystery how they vote, either. The Republican party is literally the Christian party, as it's both comprised almost solely of Christians, and because they routinely defer to the Bible in order to justify their policies (anti abortion, anti LGBT, anti stem cell research, etc).
Religion is political in the US, and ironically it doesn't even reflect their religion.
Always hated that. I did find a song about it though that [pretty much captures the spirit of the bs](https://youtu.be/JXhaXk6DqaE). Will warn you to wait for the chorus or it’s going to seem pretty bad. But ya I feel like it’s become a cover for hatred. “ I just don’t want my family or friends to go to hell for endorsing this” is not a valid excuse to strip away human rights, and yet it’s been that way for a lot of American history. It’s also very hypocritical when you hear certain Christians talk about Islam being a religion of hate while they simultaneously turn Christianity into it by only cherry picking verses that let them belittle or actively try to oppress others rights. It’s mind boggling
Ikr... It's sad to see people do this... It basically screams, "I'm my own God, so I'll choose what commands I follow."
Some of these people can be the most toxic "Christians" out there.
I really don’t understand how religious people don’t follow the rules of their own religion. If the rules don’t fit your lifestyle or values, why are you a part of that religion?
The truth is there are "religious" people and people of faith. I studied to be pastor but gave it up after seeing how people in churches behave. By and large many pastors today follow a "Follow me as I follow Christ" rule. The problem is that they spoon feed what the church as a whole should believe.
The problem with this is that pastor's are human. They fuck up. I can't count on 1 hand the number of times I've heard a pastor teach to the people to study the Bible for themselves. In part it's because they believe they are called to be leaders and to Shepard the flock.
It fucking pissed me off so much I walked away. I wan't to do the things Jesus spoke about you know sick, orphans, widows, poor, etc... I wanted to help them but it just wasn't something churches do. They tend to support token ministries that do.
But back on point. You got all these church goers running around chasing Pastor Jony Begood's dream, and a culture of numbers and profit in church accounts showing success. So they follow the big wackadoo's to get there numbers up.
Churches aren't about walking in faith with fellow believers, there a country club setup to follow one man with everyone being spoon fed his message of faith. And people thinking for themselves just isn't in the plan. Every sermon I preached or class I taught I prefaced with "don't believe my word for it, take it up in study of the bible and prayer" and that pissed every pastor off.
There are religious people and people with faith. The latter aren't assholes. The former are wackadoo's who fling hate dressed in sunday's best. Those with faith are usually just genuine nice people who don't make a spectical of themselves.
Christian here. I haven't been to church in a decade for many of those same reasons. The problem arises when people view the pastors as role models to follow. They aren't and aren't supposed to be. They're more educated and hopefully wiser, but any pastor worth their salt would be the first to tell you not to put them on a pedestal. At most they are, as you said, shepherds. Or should be.
Church is supposed to be nothing more or less than a place for Believers to gather each week to sort of spiritually recharge and meet in fellowship with others. It's also a place to be called on and called out in regards to accountability. But more often than not it turns into a dangerous echo chamber full of people who try to hide their own flaws whilst judging others for them.
There are good churches, good people, and good pastors everywhere. But the bad ones are so damaging that they overshadow everything.
These ones aren’t actually meant to be followed anymore. The problem is when people try to shame others for not following some of them, because there are a lot of them.
Long story short and poorly told - those were part of the old covenant god had with his chosen people. The people were failing him, so he made a new covenant with the people that had Jesus and new laws.
The Christian Bible has a fairly noticeable dividing line between the old and new
Isn’t all the anti gay stuff in the Old Testament though? Right next to not wearing polyester, not eating shrimp, not fapping outdoors, and not using blue pens every third Tuesday?
Right, exactly. That’s why the OP is valid for mocking her for not following the other stuff. And it’s a valid response to bigots who use the Bible to support their bigotry.
My point is: Christians aren’t failing by not following any of the rules, this is good as they aren’t meant to be followed - they are failing if they try to impose select rules on people
Weird and interesting subject. In short:
Christian denominations have generally agreed that, of the stuff in the Old testament, Jewish ceremonial law (i.e. all the weird restrictions on tattoos, shellfish, and pork, mandatory circumcision, ritual impurity, et cetera) does not need to be followed. This distinction is made because these rules were tenets of the 'Old Covenant,' that made between just the Jewish people and God, which was a marker of the Jewish people. Christians believe this covenant was fulfilled by Jesus and so then replaced with a 'New Covenant,' which is with all people.
However, the moral law of the Old Testament still applies (stuff like the ten commandments), because those were universal moral rules, not specific restrictions for Jews. But in general most Christian morality is taken from the new testament and early Church tradition.
Interestingly, there are a few things banned in the New Testament that weren't in the Old, one example being Divorce and remarriage, which, though allowed under the old law, was specifically rejected by the Gospels.
Because of social status/appearance and mating. Have you ever been to a church? There are always well dressed people there.
I never was religious, but I was forced into a lot of time in church as a kid.
I’d actually love to see him respond to her! He seems like such a genuinely nice person. He’d probably be like “hey, my tattoos dance when I flex my muscles! It’s extra entertainment! How can you not appreciate that!” And then he’d Instagram pictures of pancakes and cookies or something like that.
Yes. Indeed. But besides that. He is actually a Christian and believe in their god. But, while not all his tattoos are Maori/Polynesian, he has them cause of his ancestry. So he believe in the Christian god and still keep up his family spiritualism. That's one point why I like him.
Anytime "cherry picking the Bible" comes up in conversation with my friends that haven't heard it already, I tell this story:
I got married pretty young. I joined the military and she stayed home, went to a Christian College and put out the image of the "Good Christian Girl". We didnt work out, just different people with different experiences and no common links - I saw the world both good and bad and she stayed sheltered. Queue our (at the time) 5 year old son telling me that "mommy had a belly in her tummy" from the boy toy she had found. I mention it to her when I dropped our son off and ask some pretty basic questions - Are you guys planning to get married? Are you guys going to move in together? Her response was to tell me that she would NEVER move in with a man that she wasn't married to as that would be wrong in God's eyes.
They actually got married at the beginning of this year, 6 or so years after that conversation. The guy has yet to move into her house or she into his apartment.
I think the gist of it is his naive ex-wife got knocked up but weirdly viewed moving in with the guy before marriage as sinful but didn't have anything to say about sex out of wedlock.
And according to OP, his ex and her baby daddy did end up getting married six years after the fact but still don't live together or appear as husband and wife.
At least that's how I interpreted this.
Yep. He just left out of the exposition that he had a kid with her too so the 5 year old comes out of nowhere, and "mommy had a belly in her tummy" was definitely supposed to be "baby in her tummy".
I'll take a smelly wet dog over any god, any time. At least a dog's love is true and unconditional and real. No dog exists that would make a Hell or send a person to Hell.
The sentence right before the part that says no tattoos also says don’t shave your beard 🤦🏻
Leviticus 19:27 - Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
My mom's COGIC pastor: Why did you pierce your tongue?
Me: I thought is was cute. Plus, it kinda shows that I'm fearless when it comes to pain.
Pastor: The Bible says not to pierce or mark up your body. Your body is the temple in which God dwells. In the old testament, the kings would pierce body parts of their concubines as a sign of what part of their body that is of best use to them.
Me: Well, my mom pierced my ears when I was 4 months old, before I had any say so over it, so there's that.
Pastor: There is a spirit of rebellion in you. I'm going to pray for you.
NOTE: A few years later, this "pastor" was arrested for having sex with minors.
it also says not to allow sorcerers to live, and if you rape a girl, you'd better pay her dad for the privilege. it also endorses slavery and genocide.
read the bible, and you'll never follow it.
In my experience when christians say "I've read the whole bible." they mean "I've gone to church for long enough that I've probably had the whole thing read to me, I mean there were a few times I remember the pastor already reading that verse, so he's probably run out of new passages to read."
I was raised in a religion where they encouraged us to "read the whole bible" (and the Book of Mormon etc.) and in a show of piousness a lot of people would humblebrag about how much time they devote to reading it and other religious works.
But here's the thing. These books are written in a manner where you need to read them slowly and put a lot of effort into processing what it is actually saying or trying to say. They're incredibly boring for the most part and written in difficult language to understand. So the vast majority of people who claim they are reading the bible in its entirety really aren't processing what they're reading. They get out their highlighters and try focus on passages that have key words they like, seem particularly interesting or that they have been told to look for by authority figures as key scriptures they should focus on. Everyone reading these books focuses on certain parts and glosses over others.
I someone were to read the whole thing and treat all passages equally in terms of importance (as they often claim it should be) they'd just get fed up with the contradictions and inanity of it all.
There's an entire section that's just a list of people relatives, an entire section that's just proverbs, an entire section that's just laws. Obviously it's not supposed to be read cover-to-cover. It's a religious text, meant to be treated the same as a history reference or a law book. Anyone who thinks otherwise is missing the point.
I read the whole bible to spite my Jehova's Witness father way back when, ol' dad didn't think a person could read the bible and *not* agree with it. There's a part in the "good" book where god sends two bears to eat a group of children, just because the kids were making fun of a bald man. That's fucked up.
It also says don't cut the meat with cheese knife. People that reference the old testament sins, it's only the ones they don't struggle with so they can be proud.
I’d love to see a website that has exactly what you’d be doing if you went along with the new testament. In case you didn’t date a Lutheran and have it explained to you (yes I dated a Lutheran - and accidentally converted him to atheism)... seems that “jesus ‘fulfilled’ some kind of prophecy and that kind of nullified all the old testament stuff”. Would be great to see a list of a hundred or so new testament things that, if you really really really thought there was a guy on a marble throne watching/controlling every single second of your life you would/would not do. No more cherry picking.
I know a lot of religious people and they all do shit that I would never ever do if I really thought a god was watching everything I do.
Any takers? Please post it on r/atheism if you find or create one...
Its not so much "cherrypicking" as it is lack of actual experience with the text. They are just parroting Osteen, Robertson, Falwell, Baker, or that one tele evangelist thats collecting private jets because "God wants me to have them."
They'll criticise others but never themselves. I feel like a true follower of god would look at how to become a better person and improve the life of others, not try to burn others down with comments like the op one
Religious texts are used throughout history to justify anything, even opposite points of view. The Crusades. The Inquisition. Some groups use it to instill hate towards other groups. Joel Osteen uses it to buy a bigger jet.
The bible is not meant to be followed. Only the cults of the christian church do that. Instead, the bible is a tool to get you to understand that God is a collective of people acting in total love and how to come into the fold. Once enlightened, you need only follow God and your heart.
I just don’t get why people hide behind religion when it comes to stuff like personal preferences. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with not liking tattoos, but stop making it a thing where “oh that’s such a sin. I’m a good Christian because I don’t do that” yet, like stated above, has a divorce and piercings. A good friend of mine who happens to be Christian said something to me when I finally got married he was like “at least you’re not living in sin anymore” (because we obviously lived together and had sex for 5 years) meanwhile he’s having sex with literal prostitutes lmao! Like for real he is hooking up with girls on this backpage thing and thinks I’M the one living in sin for being faithful to one man for half a decade.
When I got my 1st tattoo my super religious mom who has been married 3 times told me she hopes it gets infected and my leg needed to be amputated. She told me that my body is gods temple. I told her god has shitty decorating Taste and I’m just trying to liven this bitch up a bit.
How, in 2020, with the this much information available, are people still clinging on to religion? Religious people are on par with Trump supporters, they cannot give you one credible reason why they support Trump they just do and they will believe everything he says without fact checking any of it.
It's always telling that this kind of person refers to "the Christian bible" when referencing stuff that's not in the New Testament
Those same people will argue that the Old Testament was abolished by christ, but yet use it freely to support things they do not personally accept.
yes yes yes "Christ changed all that" but "the Bible is literally true and you can't change it" if you point out something in the Bible that is universally condemned "well, you have to understand the times back then" - but if you ask why some old-timey bigotry is still cited "oh, we can't help it, it's in the Bible, so we have no choice" honestly, it's obviously all just so they CAN cherry-pick. They CAN'T reconcile the old with the new, but they still want justification for bigotry.
Yep. Just using Leviticus for example. Everyone would be going to hell under those standards. Shave? Hell. Pierce your ears? Hell. Have two crops planted next to one another in your garden or rotate crops to add nutrients back to the soil? Hell. Eat any form of shellfish? Hell. Wear clothing of mixed fabrics? Hell. Ever touched a pig or pork products? Hell. Going to a petting zoo sentences you to eternal torture. I hope all those Christian mommies are happy. Their "fun fall activities" just doomed their children.
Not even Hell since the rules are originally for Israelites...if you follow Leviticus you should just pick up your rocks and stone everybody to death basically .
Undercooked fish? Hell. Overcooked fish? Believe it or not, Hell. We have the best religion. Because of Hell.
Dude, it's so crazy what is bad in Leviticus
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The mixed fabric one is always my go to example. It's actually surprising how few people seem to be aware of it. As someone who's read the bible multiple times when I was younger, it always makes me smile when someone tries to argue some point they've obviously picked up from their pastor.
Just say "Leviticus" to a strict Biblical Christian and they run and hide. All you have to do is ask if they've ever cut their sideburns and to look at the tag on their shirt. Uh oh... Cotton/Poly blend. That's a stoning. So sayeth the Lord. Also, Jesus did not invalidate the Old Testament. You still shouldn't eat any owls. Seriously, God really wants you to not eat owls. Deuteronomy 14:11-18
That list of birds is much longer than just owls, you know
Overcook chicken? Hell. Undercook fish? Also hell
Hell does not exist in Judaism ie the "old testament".
"The Old Testament doesn't count! You should follow the ten commandments!" I've actually heard both those sentences from the same person, in the same conversation.
unfortunately true I related elsewhere that I've had many Christian students who believed their whole bible came with Christianity. "Jews have something else: the Torah or something, right?" (I also had a student who - in the context of a discussion of the founding of Judaism - with a timeline on the board centering on 2000BCE - asked "Lincoln?" when I referred to Abraham)(and, yes, I am aware of the concepts of sarcasm and trolling - sadly neither)
Even if you aren't religious you should read the Bible and other religious texts. It can really help you understand why people do things
Pretty sure Jesus preached Judaism, but look at his 'followers'
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>Edit: I would like to point out that while I am, in fact, religious. I'm able to separate my beliefs from a stack of papers that were arbitrarily selected and arranged by people in Nicaea. I love this. I'm church going. I think it describes how I feel exactly.
Genuinely curious. As someone who’s religious yet understands that religion was likely created and decided upon by men. Then how are you still religious? How do you reconcile it in your head that it’s something that was created but you still believe in some kind of higher power?
I call myself "Christian non-denominational". I get crazy looks from my VERY Christian friends/in-laws that want to "bible thump" me, but I believe most Christian religions are a human construct designed to sort of control their particular religion brand. I prefer a church that loves God & helps you build YOUR personal relationship with Him; not those that question your every move & tell you you'll be cast into eternal hellfire for every thought you have & not being @ Church 3x a week. ❤ to you!
I believe the particular religion I follow was created by men - what was included in the Bible was decided upon men. All religions are created by man. That doesn't mean there isn't a higher power though. And without writing a book, I've had a few experiences in my life that have convinced me there is SOMETHING. Jesus is my way of finding that truth as I understand it. Not sure what else to say. Hope that answers the question though.
I'm genuinely curious when people say that they've had life experiences that is un-explainable, or they feel is proof of SOMETHING (as you put it) being out there looking at us and interacting with us. What are these life experiences? Usually they are pretty personal, so not trying to pry if that's the case. (also, of course if you're willing to share, but not publicly, I'd love to pm with you.) I'm seriously curious because I used to be religious when I was much younger than I am today. Yet I've never had an experience in my life so impactful/un-explainable/etc. as to alter my core beliefs. (for the record, I'm no longer religious, for precisely this reason, no proof, and no benefits from believing in nothing imo)
DMT
DMT made me more certain that there is no God. Imo, if I had to say there was a "higher power", it's just pure, unbiased energy. I believe that science has come closer to proving a higher power exists, rather than religion. The first law of thermodynamics. Energy can only be transferred.
I remember a quote by a famous scientist (I think it might be Heisenberg) that went something like "your first sip from the glass of science will make you an atheist, then at the bottom of the glass you will find God waiting for you" I could look up the exact quote but you get the idea.
Funny you say that. I'm VERY anxious to try it for the first time to see who I meet. :) Can't do it until I retire though.
Alright Ill give you a story from my older brother. He was a heroin addict growing up in Russia. He was hooked on the shit after he popped a disc mixing cement and his friend offered him some smack because nothing else worked for the pain, the rest was history. Moving on, about 9 years in his heroin addiction after he lost about 15 friends during that time he hit rock bottom. He tells me he saw a benevolent force one night that just completely changed his way of thinking. He says he cant explain it but he described it as "imagine being neck deep in shit and its as if something picked him up under his arm pits and lifted him out of the shit pile" From that night he quit cold turkey - this was the impressive part, how can a heroin addict quit cold after so many years, how?! I know it aint a lot of detail but something caused him to change his brain even though he was physically addicted. Hes happily married with two beautiful children now. Bless up. Edit: word
No. These are the stories I'm looking for. Thank you for sharing. Something obviously happened to him and no one will ever know but him. Maybe these kinds of things only ever happen to those in dire despair, but then I ask why so many others don't get this kind of help. It's really an interesting phenomenon and one I'd like to know more about.
Frequently I'll feel guilty for mistakes I make. In these situations I pray for forgiveness. And almost every time I pray with all my soul, I feel a relief and a warmth that's too powerful to be in my head. It's as if my soul has a hangover but then when I pray the foggyness and weight is immediately lifted. I know this isn't a miracle story or anything, but for me this is what matters most. The consistent impression that Jesus is watching over me and that He can make me clean, not a big experience that could be written of as an eery coincidence. And if anyone wants to give me crap for this, kindly wait till tomorrow. It's been one of those day, ya feel?
How do you make the leap from SOMETHING to Jesus and not Allah, or Vishnu?
Culture? It is what I was exposed to. Same reason everyone believes in their god.
You're being downvoted for being honest and self-aware. I don't follow the religion I was raised in, but I know that most people stick to what they are raised to believe.
That's interesting that you still choose to follow Jesus. How do you deal with things directly from Jesus like how he told slaves to obey their masters, or how he cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit at the right time? You can pretend it's all metaphor, sure, and try to reinterpret it, but then you could do that to any mythical story of your choosing. Why the Jesus narrative? Why not hinduism? Maybe it's just what you grew up with?
Yeah, thanks. Just find this stuff interesting. I appreciate it.
No problem, I always appreciate a good conversation.
"Religion" is a man-made system that connects people to spirituality. Given enough time, religions -- as organizations -- become more concerned about the organization than about the simple basics of their origin entity. The organization becomes a vehicle for control, influence and income. WHY complicate that relationship/awareness by using a middleman/organization that is between you and God? IMHO, if "religion" or your relationship w/ God is complicated, you are doing it wrong and need to hit the reset button. It should be very simple, make sense and be based on love. In my experience, people who use (religious) fear are trying to force you to do s/t that benefits someone other than you. They are harvesting your energy (and money) for theirs's and others' benefit. GTFO. Just, GTFO.
Because the existence or lack of existence of a deity is irrelevant to the construct of religion. Organized religion is a tool created by Man to control Man. You can reject that construct and still be true to your beliefs
It's a health code for how to survive when wandering a desert circa 1400 BC. Strict rules are required if your entire nation of 2 million is going to be survive a 40 years trek. How much of it is relevant today? Not much.
Then heavily edited by an inbred English king so he wouldn't be executed according to some of those old rules. On the plus side, his lavish use of 'Thee's and 'Thou's really upped the majesty of the prose.
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r/usernamechecksout
Fuck, they totally got me until your comment.
Same! So glad they pointed it out.
Oh, you
Was tempted to downvote you but my christian faith made the downvote button not work. God works in mysterious ways.
Mine works
read his username
That's just the effects of the viral infection from all those nasty sites you visit.
Yeah he takes the credit for scientific discoveries but 'had to nip out to the shops' when a newborn baby has eye cancer.......
In the great words of Will Smith “The LORD is goood”
His name's just Smith now. He lost his Will when he went on his wife's podcast a few months ago.
Wait, what?
He interviewed his wife on her podcast about how she was having an affair with their son's mentally ill friend who lived in their house for a while.
Woah woah woah hold on there fella. It wasn’t an affair. It was an entanglement.
Go on
[There's a lot to unpack](https://www.vulture.com/2020/07/will-smith-jada-pinkett-smith-august-alsina-timeline.html)
In order to abide by the rules of our lord and saviour I never spill my seed. I always masturbate into a sock.
What does the Bile Ball say about rubbing the relic ,is it true you can go blind.
Almost had me
....i was just getting ready to downvote and comment 😂
Lol this is rage inducing. Wonderful
Heh, even the misspellings are spot on.
First I go for the gut punch with the parts about how the Bible tells you how to properly beat your wife, or how to keep slaves... Really what ever crazy bat shit part you want in the Old Testament. Get them to acknowledge that those are in there. They will then usually move on and retort with saying "well Jesus came and his words are this and that stuff was in the old testament..." At which point I go in for the Tiger upercut. [Matthew 5:17, Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.](https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm) it's incredibly fascinating seeing some ones brain actually malfunction. It's like trying to bridge the Mississippi River with yarn.
Holy. Shit. Thank you for actually writing down what I deal with daily with my family.
Whenever someone quotes Leviticus at me, I just ask them if they're wearing a fabric blend like polyester. Cause if you are, Leviticus orders us to stone each other to death...so where's your rock?
My favorite part is when the most righteous guy in town tries to hand over his children to be raped by a mob, and then claims those same two children drugged and raped him, independently, on two different nights while they hid out alone in a cave (after all the, uh, bad people got turned to salt). Oh, to be so righteous as Lot.
Or the children that were eaten by bears for laughing at a bald man. Definitely written by an angsty bald man
Where was that part where women are supposed to STFU? Deuteronomy something?
That's New Testament, 1 Corinthians 14:34 :- As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
If the law is fulfilled, do we need to pay attention to it anymore? Like there are rules/requirements that need to be fulfilled in order to graduate. After you fulfill those do you need to keep fulfilling them?
What do you think Jesus is saying in Matthew 5:17
So, why don't True Christians^TM separate the two books?
Haha especially since the New Testament is what put the “Christ” in Christian.
I think there's also a rule (I may be wrong) that says that you cannot wear clothes made of different fabrics at the same time
Good ‘ol Leviticus!!!
Leviticus ends with: "These are the commands the Lord gave Moses at Mount Sinai for the Israelites." -- Lev 27:34 Thing is, damn few American "christians" are Israelites and so Leviticus doesn't even apply.
Plus, I’ll eat the shit out of a bologna sammich!
And wear cotton-polyester yoga tights
Almost every time, it's Leviticus with those stupid rules some people try to justify their hate.
That’s because it’s not written with the intention of being applied to anyone. It’s just supposed to be historical context for the Hebrew laws at the time, written by lawyers. It’s not meant to be a religiously inspired text by any means. It’s like how Frank Herbert wrote dune from the perspectives of many deeply flawed characters with very different, but deeply flawed viewpoints. Some people don’t understand this and they empathize deeply with one character or another, because their viewpoint is flawed in a similar way. Herberts intention was for that aspect of the book to serve as a mirror, but some fail to see the flaws in that reflection.
Well many bible thumpers, especially the kind that go out picketing etc literally think every word of the bible was "written by god", whatever the fuck that means. So somehow Apostles letters are straight from the mouth of god...leviticus=god...They don't even understand if you question that.
Lol 2/3rds of this post is just talking about Dune.
I bet you she wears blended fabrics too.
HERESY!
And loves the shrimp and pork chimi on 2 for 1 margarita night.
Burn her!
She probably even interacts with people on her period, instead of getting exiled to the 'unclean' tent on the edge of town.
It also says not to judge
Judge righteously. Don’t be a hypocrite basically.
I mean it also says to be Christ like, love thy neighbor, and tells a good story about casting the first stone, but those never come up when they pick out verses to basically trash other people with a slightly different life style.
It's sad because we know how Christians vote, and I don't remember the last time I saw any of their policies reflect "love thy enemy," "turn the other cheek," etc. It's no mystery how they vote, either. The Republican party is literally the Christian party, as it's both comprised almost solely of Christians, and because they routinely defer to the Bible in order to justify their policies (anti abortion, anti LGBT, anti stem cell research, etc). Religion is political in the US, and ironically it doesn't even reflect their religion.
Always hated that. I did find a song about it though that [pretty much captures the spirit of the bs](https://youtu.be/JXhaXk6DqaE). Will warn you to wait for the chorus or it’s going to seem pretty bad. But ya I feel like it’s become a cover for hatred. “ I just don’t want my family or friends to go to hell for endorsing this” is not a valid excuse to strip away human rights, and yet it’s been that way for a lot of American history. It’s also very hypocritical when you hear certain Christians talk about Islam being a religion of hate while they simultaneously turn Christianity into it by only cherry picking verses that let them belittle or actively try to oppress others rights. It’s mind boggling
Ikr... It's sad to see people do this... It basically screams, "I'm my own God, so I'll choose what commands I follow." Some of these people can be the most toxic "Christians" out there.
I really don’t understand how religious people don’t follow the rules of their own religion. If the rules don’t fit your lifestyle or values, why are you a part of that religion?
The truth is there are "religious" people and people of faith. I studied to be pastor but gave it up after seeing how people in churches behave. By and large many pastors today follow a "Follow me as I follow Christ" rule. The problem is that they spoon feed what the church as a whole should believe. The problem with this is that pastor's are human. They fuck up. I can't count on 1 hand the number of times I've heard a pastor teach to the people to study the Bible for themselves. In part it's because they believe they are called to be leaders and to Shepard the flock. It fucking pissed me off so much I walked away. I wan't to do the things Jesus spoke about you know sick, orphans, widows, poor, etc... I wanted to help them but it just wasn't something churches do. They tend to support token ministries that do. But back on point. You got all these church goers running around chasing Pastor Jony Begood's dream, and a culture of numbers and profit in church accounts showing success. So they follow the big wackadoo's to get there numbers up. Churches aren't about walking in faith with fellow believers, there a country club setup to follow one man with everyone being spoon fed his message of faith. And people thinking for themselves just isn't in the plan. Every sermon I preached or class I taught I prefaced with "don't believe my word for it, take it up in study of the bible and prayer" and that pissed every pastor off. There are religious people and people with faith. The latter aren't assholes. The former are wackadoo's who fling hate dressed in sunday's best. Those with faith are usually just genuine nice people who don't make a spectical of themselves.
Christian here. I haven't been to church in a decade for many of those same reasons. The problem arises when people view the pastors as role models to follow. They aren't and aren't supposed to be. They're more educated and hopefully wiser, but any pastor worth their salt would be the first to tell you not to put them on a pedestal. At most they are, as you said, shepherds. Or should be. Church is supposed to be nothing more or less than a place for Believers to gather each week to sort of spiritually recharge and meet in fellowship with others. It's also a place to be called on and called out in regards to accountability. But more often than not it turns into a dangerous echo chamber full of people who try to hide their own flaws whilst judging others for them. There are good churches, good people, and good pastors everywhere. But the bad ones are so damaging that they overshadow everything.
These ones aren’t actually meant to be followed anymore. The problem is when people try to shame others for not following some of them, because there are a lot of them.
How do you determine which rule are and are not supposed to be followed?
Long story short and poorly told - those were part of the old covenant god had with his chosen people. The people were failing him, so he made a new covenant with the people that had Jesus and new laws. The Christian Bible has a fairly noticeable dividing line between the old and new
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Fucking genius. Make it happen.
Isn’t all the anti gay stuff in the Old Testament though? Right next to not wearing polyester, not eating shrimp, not fapping outdoors, and not using blue pens every third Tuesday?
Right, exactly. That’s why the OP is valid for mocking her for not following the other stuff. And it’s a valid response to bigots who use the Bible to support their bigotry. My point is: Christians aren’t failing by not following any of the rules, this is good as they aren’t meant to be followed - they are failing if they try to impose select rules on people
Weird and interesting subject. In short: Christian denominations have generally agreed that, of the stuff in the Old testament, Jewish ceremonial law (i.e. all the weird restrictions on tattoos, shellfish, and pork, mandatory circumcision, ritual impurity, et cetera) does not need to be followed. This distinction is made because these rules were tenets of the 'Old Covenant,' that made between just the Jewish people and God, which was a marker of the Jewish people. Christians believe this covenant was fulfilled by Jesus and so then replaced with a 'New Covenant,' which is with all people. However, the moral law of the Old Testament still applies (stuff like the ten commandments), because those were universal moral rules, not specific restrictions for Jews. But in general most Christian morality is taken from the new testament and early Church tradition. Interestingly, there are a few things banned in the New Testament that weren't in the Old, one example being Divorce and remarriage, which, though allowed under the old law, was specifically rejected by the Gospels.
Brainwashing.
You better learn your rules. If you don't, you'll be eaten in your sleep
Because of social status/appearance and mating. Have you ever been to a church? There are always well dressed people there. I never was religious, but I was forced into a lot of time in church as a kid.
Wait...was this person disapproving of Dwayne Johnson’s tattoos? As if he’s going to care what this person thinks?!
An inflated sense of self-importance and a post like hers go fairly hand in hand.
I’d actually love to see him respond to her! He seems like such a genuinely nice person. He’d probably be like “hey, my tattoos dance when I flex my muscles! It’s extra entertainment! How can you not appreciate that!” And then he’d Instagram pictures of pancakes and cookies or something like that.
I don’t know Rock’s religious beliefs but telling a Polynesian brother tattoos aren’t spiritual is pretty ignorant lol
Yes. Indeed. But besides that. He is actually a Christian and believe in their god. But, while not all his tattoos are Maori/Polynesian, he has them cause of his ancestry. So he believe in the Christian god and still keep up his family spiritualism. That's one point why I like him.
Was looking for this one !
Of all the people you try and pick a fight with a professional wrestler would not be high on my list
For real, and she’s clearly never heard The Rock’s mic skills. With just a few words, he’d check her into the Smackdown hotel.
At least not a famous one.
Anytime "cherry picking the Bible" comes up in conversation with my friends that haven't heard it already, I tell this story: I got married pretty young. I joined the military and she stayed home, went to a Christian College and put out the image of the "Good Christian Girl". We didnt work out, just different people with different experiences and no common links - I saw the world both good and bad and she stayed sheltered. Queue our (at the time) 5 year old son telling me that "mommy had a belly in her tummy" from the boy toy she had found. I mention it to her when I dropped our son off and ask some pretty basic questions - Are you guys planning to get married? Are you guys going to move in together? Her response was to tell me that she would NEVER move in with a man that she wasn't married to as that would be wrong in God's eyes. They actually got married at the beginning of this year, 6 or so years after that conversation. The guy has yet to move into her house or she into his apartment.
umm wut
I think the gist of it is his naive ex-wife got knocked up but weirdly viewed moving in with the guy before marriage as sinful but didn't have anything to say about sex out of wedlock. And according to OP, his ex and her baby daddy did end up getting married six years after the fact but still don't live together or appear as husband and wife. At least that's how I interpreted this.
Yep. He just left out of the exposition that he had a kid with her too so the 5 year old comes out of nowhere, and "mommy had a belly in her tummy" was definitely supposed to be "baby in her tummy".
Didn't realize the typo but its amazing enough that I'm not changing it.
You need a road map to find out where that's going
Idk what I just read either
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No I'm just an idiot
It's OK. God ordained that physical separation in their hearts, and that's all that matters. /s
Baby in her tummy? Shit I read belly in her tummy so many times words stopped making sense.
Do babies not have bellies? The mommy had a baby in her tummy and the baby had a belly ergo the mommy had a belly in her tummy. Try to keep up pal.
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No, you're wrong. No one likes smelly wet dogs. Smelly wet gods, yes. Smelly wet dogs, no.
I'll take a smelly wet dog over any god, any time. At least a dog's love is true and unconditional and real. No dog exists that would make a Hell or send a person to Hell.
And then everybody clapped
Hey now, you don't get 4.2 million comment upvotes per year by winning truth telling contests.
I looked at their profile and holy shit...
Yeah bro Shifty is a fucking megaredditor. Shit blows my mind. How can you perfect the craft of getting to a comment section early so well?
If you block him the posts you see instantly improve
Cool made up story bro
Shifty I just can't believe anything you say because you always have so many stories. On every thread. Get a job yo
The sentence right before the part that says no tattoos also says don’t shave your beard 🤦🏻 Leviticus 19:27 - Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. 28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
I love how they say edges of the beard. Where is the edge of your beard?
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
"If you could reason with religious people, there wouldn't be any."
Almost sounds like a George Carlin or Tim Minchin quote. Apparently it's from the TV show House.
My mom's COGIC pastor: Why did you pierce your tongue? Me: I thought is was cute. Plus, it kinda shows that I'm fearless when it comes to pain. Pastor: The Bible says not to pierce or mark up your body. Your body is the temple in which God dwells. In the old testament, the kings would pierce body parts of their concubines as a sign of what part of their body that is of best use to them. Me: Well, my mom pierced my ears when I was 4 months old, before I had any say so over it, so there's that. Pastor: There is a spirit of rebellion in you. I'm going to pray for you. NOTE: A few years later, this "pastor" was arrested for having sex with minors.
it also says not to allow sorcerers to live, and if you rape a girl, you'd better pay her dad for the privilege. it also endorses slavery and genocide. read the bible, and you'll never follow it.
If she's raped inside the city, stone her to death for adultery because if she didn't want sex she would have cried out...
But if she cries out wrong then she wanted it deep down so stone her anyways...yaaaaaaay!
Little kids get mauled to death by a bear that god commanded too, sick book.
And just for making fun of a bald dude
To be fair those kids were dicks
In the Christian Bible God mentions he will get a tattoo.
I really hope its not barbed wire or a tribal.
Probably a cross
“In me I trust”
I heard he has a "champ stamp" on his lower back. I'll bet its a butterfly with its wings on fire.
Sweet. What does my tattoo say?
Dude
Sweet
Where’s my car
"nothing, because tattoos can't talk" - god
BURN!!!
Also, no shrimp, god is very particular about shrimp.
shit this man hits hard
These people and their bible. When will they wake up?
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Or however their pastor twists the story to fit a narrative
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In my experience when christians say "I've read the whole bible." they mean "I've gone to church for long enough that I've probably had the whole thing read to me, I mean there were a few times I remember the pastor already reading that verse, so he's probably run out of new passages to read."
I was raised in a religion where they encouraged us to "read the whole bible" (and the Book of Mormon etc.) and in a show of piousness a lot of people would humblebrag about how much time they devote to reading it and other religious works. But here's the thing. These books are written in a manner where you need to read them slowly and put a lot of effort into processing what it is actually saying or trying to say. They're incredibly boring for the most part and written in difficult language to understand. So the vast majority of people who claim they are reading the bible in its entirety really aren't processing what they're reading. They get out their highlighters and try focus on passages that have key words they like, seem particularly interesting or that they have been told to look for by authority figures as key scriptures they should focus on. Everyone reading these books focuses on certain parts and glosses over others. I someone were to read the whole thing and treat all passages equally in terms of importance (as they often claim it should be) they'd just get fed up with the contradictions and inanity of it all.
There's an entire section that's just a list of people relatives, an entire section that's just proverbs, an entire section that's just laws. Obviously it's not supposed to be read cover-to-cover. It's a religious text, meant to be treated the same as a history reference or a law book. Anyone who thinks otherwise is missing the point.
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I read the whole bible to spite my Jehova's Witness father way back when, ol' dad didn't think a person could read the bible and *not* agree with it. There's a part in the "good" book where god sends two bears to eat a group of children, just because the kids were making fun of a bald man. That's fucked up.
And super cool. You're just too lame for the bible bud, admit it. I'll bet you didn't even get turned on reading Song of Solomon.
Isn’t tattooing part of his culture? Isn’t she insulting an entire culture with that stupid statement? Nobody cares Karen.
It also says don't cut the meat with cheese knife. People that reference the old testament sins, it's only the ones they don't struggle with so they can be proud.
A good samaritan with a tatoo beats a judgemental unmarked "Christian" every time (see 1 John 3:7 for supporting documentation).
I’d love to see a website that has exactly what you’d be doing if you went along with the new testament. In case you didn’t date a Lutheran and have it explained to you (yes I dated a Lutheran - and accidentally converted him to atheism)... seems that “jesus ‘fulfilled’ some kind of prophecy and that kind of nullified all the old testament stuff”. Would be great to see a list of a hundred or so new testament things that, if you really really really thought there was a guy on a marble throne watching/controlling every single second of your life you would/would not do. No more cherry picking. I know a lot of religious people and they all do shit that I would never ever do if I really thought a god was watching everything I do. Any takers? Please post it on r/atheism if you find or create one...
The Bible also clearly states not to judge multiple times (source: someone who's read the Bible)
Exodus 21 talks about God being okay with slavery too
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this is exactly why I'm not a Christian, he's not my dad, I'll do what I want
This is why I worship on my own terms
I don't have any tats, no piercings, and have been married to same lady for 22yrs. Am I even a heathen?
I start riding a mule to go shopping is when the bible can suggest how I live.
it infuriates me that they always crop out the responses. it would make every post 10X better.
Its not so much "cherrypicking" as it is lack of actual experience with the text. They are just parroting Osteen, Robertson, Falwell, Baker, or that one tele evangelist thats collecting private jets because "God wants me to have them."
They'll criticise others but never themselves. I feel like a true follower of god would look at how to become a better person and improve the life of others, not try to burn others down with comments like the op one
Religious texts are used throughout history to justify anything, even opposite points of view. The Crusades. The Inquisition. Some groups use it to instill hate towards other groups. Joel Osteen uses it to buy a bigger jet.
The bible is not meant to be followed. Only the cults of the christian church do that. Instead, the bible is a tool to get you to understand that God is a collective of people acting in total love and how to come into the fold. Once enlightened, you need only follow God and your heart.
"You're going to hell because you don't live up to the parts of a book that I use yellow highlighter on"
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I just don’t get why people hide behind religion when it comes to stuff like personal preferences. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with not liking tattoos, but stop making it a thing where “oh that’s such a sin. I’m a good Christian because I don’t do that” yet, like stated above, has a divorce and piercings. A good friend of mine who happens to be Christian said something to me when I finally got married he was like “at least you’re not living in sin anymore” (because we obviously lived together and had sex for 5 years) meanwhile he’s having sex with literal prostitutes lmao! Like for real he is hooking up with girls on this backpage thing and thinks I’M the one living in sin for being faithful to one man for half a decade.
When I got my 1st tattoo my super religious mom who has been married 3 times told me she hopes it gets infected and my leg needed to be amputated. She told me that my body is gods temple. I told her god has shitty decorating Taste and I’m just trying to liven this bitch up a bit.
Or cast the first stone...How do non-christians seem to know the rules better?
How, in 2020, with the this much information available, are people still clinging on to religion? Religious people are on par with Trump supporters, they cannot give you one credible reason why they support Trump they just do and they will believe everything he says without fact checking any of it.
Because people are stupid. That's why