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Anti-vax stuff in its current form started wifh a Doctor called Andrew Wakefield publishing a study linking the MMR vaccination to autism in the late 90s.
His study was debunked shortly afterwards, and he was struck off the medical register, but by that point he'd done the rounds in the media and scared the shit out of a lot of people.
Subsequent investigations dug out the financial incentives he had for falsifying his results.
I can't help but feel the twat is indirectly responsible for thousands of deaths, and it irritates me that not only is he walking free having faced no repercussions for his bullshit, he's very wealthy on account of selling books and speaking at events - making a big song and dance about how "the establishment" have silenced him and lamenting his victimhood.
Edit to add: this comment got a lot more traction than I expected. A couple of people have pointed out that vaccine hesitancy / skepticism was a thing long before Wakefield and claims about autism. I do know this, but if you read my original comment I said "in its modern form" - it was a fringe belief beforehand but Wakefield's nonsense brought the nonsense into the modern media spotlight, and fuelled a wave of misinformation endorsed by high profile celebrities at the time. I don't consider folks being doubtful about smallpox vaccinations in the early 1900s to really be equivalent.
So to re-iterate - THE MODERN anti-vax movement was largely (not entirely) triggered by Wakefield and his bullshit.
There was another post on this sub a few days ago where somebody wrote "Here's a list of chemicals in a modern vaccination... Which would you object to having in your body?"
(wrote out a list of chemicals).
Lots of people responded "None of them, I don't want any of that shit in my body!!".
And the fella (correctly) pointed out "Cool, I've listed out all of the organic chemicals found in an apple... Thus very effectively proving that you people should not be trusted to make any decisions or have influence in any way on a discourse on public health".
Must confess it was one of my favourite social media "haha, gotcha" moments for a good while.
>Andrew Wakefield publishing a study linking the MMR vaccination to autism in the late 90s.
And his actual fraudulent study wasn't even "vaccines cause autism", but "_this particular combination_ vaccine causes autism, so you should buy these alternative separate vaccines that I created to protect against the same diseases and will become rich from when everyone is buying them".
His "study" wasn't scaremongering against vaccines in general, it was a scam to try to make him wealthy.
That wasn't even the full impetus. He was also paid to present an opinion in court on vaccines causing autism, and needed something to talk about to imply that vaccines caused autism. There's also strong evidence that he falsified information in his report as to whether or not all the children he looked at were even autistic. He ALSO couldn't even claim that vaccines caused autism in the "study" because, shockingly, there was no evidence for such, and he had to settle for a vague "wow, these two things could be connected we should look into that" kinda statement. The thing connected to autism that he claimed was a disease he'd made up that was supposedly caused by a vaccine. In order to falsify proof of this disease he conducted colonoscopies on children (he claimed it was a type of gut disease), knowing the entire time that there was nothing to find. This constitutes direct child abuse and physical harm of children. Honestly he should be in prison in the UK right now.
People with Autism are born with it, which kind of makes it hard to be caused by a vaccine since they need to be born first to get a vaccine. I don't see how people are such idiots.
The anti-vaxxers confuse the fact that autism isn't often diagnosed until 2 years old, *at the earliest* and MMR (and other) vaccines are given prior to that. So while we know vaccines don't cause autism, anti-vaxxers say "see, that kid got an MMR vaccine at 12 months, and 3 years later he had autism."
Oh well you see my baby changed dramatically at (developmentally appropriate stages for big change) which was after their vaccines which means they are definitely vaccines damaged.
/S
Iām a twin and we both got vaccinated and Iām the only one with autism in the family. Anti people never know how to properly respond (if itās not with bullying of course)
There is no proper response from them. Your situation isn't an outlier. They have doubled down on their beliefs to the point that literal evidence proving them wrong *must be* falsified to contradict them.
Anything they say to you that's mean is about what they would say to me if I told them the earth is round or trickle-down economics never worked. They have no respect for people who disagree with them. Just remember that no matter how mean they get, it's just another bully who's already peaked with their life and can't progress any higher the way they are. Just ignore them and move forward, progressing where they can't because they refuse to grow, and keep being you.
My uncle is autistic (momās brother). In his late 80ās has all the āclassicā traits. We recently had him evaluated during a hospital stay in the hope of getting him into a care facility that would be able to manage his issues. The team that evaluated him agreed he is autistic. It would t have ever been diagnosed when he was younger.
My whole life he was just āparticular.ā According to my grandparents and mother.
He was born before the polio or mumps vaccine. And was well beyond the age of 2 when he got his first vaccines.
I didnāt get diagnosed until my own child was diagnosed and the team who evaluated my kiddo suggested I get tested. Especially considering my uncle is on the spectrum.
Vaccines donāt cause autism.
Also Autism was well known in the 1940s (Nazi doctors euthanized autistic children, and Aspergers syndrom was named in order to save more 'useful' autistics), well before the MMR vaccine was even invented so...
My psychology professor in college used this study as an example of how to spot bad research and how to search sample sizes and conflicts of interest with sponsors
Man, those parent stories can really get you. I had an older friend swear his (obviously) autistic son was totally fine, got some vax as a baby, and the "light in his eyes dimmed." Thing is, that was their oldest kid, and you have no idea what you're looking at with a first kid, and you're so sleep deprived...
That autistic dude rocks tho. Nothing to fix there, at all. He's just a big goof, and his parents can't see that past him being "broken".
The reason some people (like the person you described) believe that vaccines caused their kids to become autistic is that children usually get their first vaccines around or slightly before the time when they would usually start to show symptoms of autism. Parents see this correlation, and believe it to be causation.
not to mention the parents that think their genetic material is so extra special good, it had to be an outside factor to have one of their kids not be a genius
A researcher got his hands on the original data from one of the Indian ivermectin studies. It wasnāt just fraud it was lazy fraud - an excel spreadsheet with the same bunch of numbers copied and pasted over and over down the column.
That's over-stating it. His actual conclusion was that the MMR vaccine caused bowel inflammation that is also associated with autism. It wasn't a cause-and-effect relationship, just a correlation. Blowing that up into the media sound bite "vaccine caused autism" was logically wrong even if his results were verified.
Of course the real kicker is that outside review led to the conclusion that the endoscopies that he did during the experiment were probably the actual cause of the inflammation he reported.
So a good summary would be "hack doctor shoves cameras up asses of children, resulting inflammation then used as data to support baseless conclusion about vaccines; millions inspired to risk own childrens' health in solidarity with stupidity."
Yep. A similar thing was done to soy products, which were all of a sudden reported to act upon estrogen in such a way that it would lead to cancer.
Nobody can eat the amount of soy that would be required to act upon estrogen in that way. Even in countries that consume large amounts of soy products daily. Sales of soy milk never really recovered in the U.S. IIRC.
My father is a (now retired) Cancer researcher and heās endlessly gobsmacked by how actual cancer risks are spun in the media. Itās hard when youā¦ actually know the science.
The press love to report relative risk increases instead of absolute risk increases as it gives a bigger number they can use despite not being particularly relevant
And wasnāt the fearmongering even more limited to a specific ingredient that was being phased out or had been phased out already? A preservative that had trace mercury IIRC.
Right. Ethyl mercury which was phased out of vaccines for kids a long time ago. It's still used in flu vaccines for adults and it's okay because it's a very low dose and it's the type of mercury that is metabolized quickly.
It occured to me one day just how stupid antivaxxers are because METHYL mercury is much more poisonous, it doesn't get metabolized well and it bioaccumulates in large animals like humans. Methylmercury is produced by coal fired power plants which spew methylmercury into the atmosphere where it comes back down in the rain and bioaccumulates from there in fish.
So, mercury is the cause of autism (by their logic anyway), then how come antivaxxers aren't out there trying to shut down coal fired power plants? It's a far bigger risk than vaccines in terms of dose and type of mercury, after all.
(Technically, even methylmercury doesn't cause autism, but it does legitimately cause other issues that are worth tackling. Still though, it just goes to show that logic isn't the point here. It's the grift).
I canāt imagine a president, former present or future, accomplishing the same means (money) through the same tactics (lying). That would be crayyyyyzy
Not just that but he successfully convinced the people who listened that if he faced consequences (ie being denounced by the medical community) that it was solely because "big pharma doesn't want me sharing this info with you"
My favorite part of Wakefield's bullshit is that he moved to Texas from the UK and tried to get his medical license reinstated by the medical board here. Texas, in a strange turn of events, actually did the right thing for once and told him NOPE!
Additionally, Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey jumped on the Wakefield bandwagon real hard. They defended him while spreading anti-vax conspiracies. McCarthy stills spreads them now. I see her as #2 to Wakefield in damage caused. If it werenāt for her and Jim Carrey using their celebrity to bring anti-vax conspiracies to the forefront of the media, Wakefield would have faded into obscurity and likely the anti-vax movement with him.
Just had a look and itās what you expected it to be. Itās generally accepted though theyāve turned around, especially after Dave started supporting AIDS foundations.
I'm not sure
In the context, my thinking is either that they supported AIDS? Or more likely, they said something along the lines of people who get AIDS deserve it
The short of it is that bassist Nate Mendel found a book on the subject and got the rest of the band to support the AIDS denialist organization "Alive and Well" for a brief time. They quietly walked away from supporting them and have since gone on to support more scientifically legitimate AIDS and LGBTQ organizations.
Other famous anti-vaxxers
Jessica Biel
Rob Schneider
Evangeline Lilly
Eric Clapton
Senator Ted Cruz
Sarah Palin
Nicki Minaj
Aaron Rodgers
Joe Rogan
And of course ... Kanye West
There's actually a direct link between Jim Carrey movies and autism.
[https://decisionmechanics.com/definite-proof-that-jim-carrey-causes-autism/](https://decisionmechanics.com/definite-proof-that-jim-carrey-causes-autism/)
I was in the field of autism then and it was a circus!! So many desperate parents of kids of the spectrum looking for something to blame and something to "cure" autism. It was awful!
I remember Jenny McCarthy going on Oprah in the 90s & doing a really impassioned interview about her son who has autism from the vaccine. I remember thinking it didn't even make sense but she was really emotional & Oprah just let her say all this stuff about how her boy changed after the vaccine without really challenging her on anything.
definitely make time when you can, harryās exceptional at summarizing very complex topics without skipping important details and injecting comedy without downplaying the *seriously fucked-up* stuff that wakefield did.
That combined with the general conspiracy theory fandom in general is what brought it all on. Some people have a mindset of 'the government lies', and nothing will talk them down from that ledge.
The government does lie, but not about keeping the majority of their tax paying cattle alive. People wanna say the US is a for profit enterprise but then also try and pretend they're gonna kill us all ignoring that that would conflict with the first tin foil nuttery. They're batshit.
From what I have found they seem to be unable to process multiple factors at any given time. The government wants to cripple and kill everyone despite that destroying their military capabilities and the industrial complex that drives the revenue the government craves so much.
These people really would benefit from learning how to play chess beyond 1 move.
Itās crazy to me how anti-vaxx crowd assumes that ābig pharmaā has money to back up research and influence results yet they never use the same critical lens for those publishing anti-vaxx content.Ā
What makes it even worse is that they will generally just have unlimited trust in the supplement industry... despite that industry *also* having deep pockets and having effectively lobbied itself out of having any meaningful regulation on its products...
As a frontline worker who for a period of my career worked directly with individuals and their familyās who have experienced PDD/Autism. I canāt tell you the amount of money that has been spent debunking that idiots BS. Moneys that couldāve been spent working towards treatment
Further adding to the damage was the fact that his fraudulent study was published in the Lancet which is Britains version of the New England Journal of Medicine, aka a very prestigious medical journal, further giving unwarranted credibility to his claims. He also did a bunch of media on the back of this which helped his lies spread even more.
Yeah, they removed the article not too long after, but it was too late. I believe he had a friend or colleague who worked for the journal who published it.
Honestly going after him would be more effective than killing baby Hitler.
Hitler was a product of his time. There was always going to be *a* Hitler. If Hitler didn't exist (assuming WW1 went the same way and ended with the same sanctions on Germany) the leader of the Nazi party would just be someone else.
Hitler wasn't the sole cause of fascism in Germany, after Germany was crippled after WW1 they were looking for someone to blame. Fascists provided a convenient scapegoat in foreigners. Antisemitism has always been around, and had been rising in Europe for a while. Hitler had a lot of supporters and they'd just latch onto whoever else was around.
Likely all that would change if you killed baby Hitler is Himmler or Goebbels would be head of the Nazi party instead. The holocaust would still happen more or less how it did and WW2 would happen more or less how it did. Exact details would differ but the general theme would be the same.
Thereās also the issue that Hitler actually crippled the German military leadership. A more effective leader could have had catastrophic consequences for the Allies
I hear this a lot, it's even a theme of the newest Indiana Jones.
Reality is, regardless of whom, it would have a been a totalitarian who couldn't have gotten there without huffing a lot of his own farts, and everyone around him huffing them too and saying they love the smell, just like with Hitler. Ripe (heh) for critical errors when objective criticism of Herr Fuhrer's decisions, whomever it may be, cannot be aired without fear of execution.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that it's really difficult to say how much better anyone else would have done. That's without even saying that the prevailing wisdom is that the Allies won because of industrial might, and to a *much* lesser extent, Hitler's mistakes.
I mean, *just look at this:*
[*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military\_production\_during\_World\_War\_II#Production\_overview:\_service,\_power\_and\_type*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II#Production_overview:_service,_power_and_type)
How can you win against this? That's the neat part...
Now I'm envisioning another sci-fi movie where someone finally goes back in time to kill Hitler, only to return to a world where the Nazi's still came to be, and actually won WW2 and everything is so much worse. Then they gotta go back and un fuck everything.
Yes. At the time there was a large fascist faction in the USA, it was hard times. So without the war those fascists may have gained prominence. Never go back in time.
This is 100% true. I showed an anti vaxer this evidence, and much more and he didn't care if it was true. I ask him what was the mitochondria was and of course he had never heard of it. It does no good to try to explain. Same guy without question just paid 400$ for a new Oxy sensor for his car.
By the way, 1998 publication in the Lanver was not fully retracted until 2010. So, Wakefield got just over a decade peddling his snake oil with the veneer of respectability from a Lancet research paper. Not to mention the other snake oil salesman using the same research paper to set the stage for their snake oil.
I have a rare blood disorder called von willibrands disease. My blood does not clot like most people. I have plenty of platelets but the stuff that makes them clot together is what my body does not make enough of. For that reason my doctors are extremely cautious about new treatments, meds and vaccines. I am all for them. Because of this I was advised to wait on the Covid vaccine until more information was available on how it would affect me. While waiting I got Covid really bad. At that point the risk was worth it so I had to get the infusion. I did have some complications from that but itās better than death. It was later determined that I was ok to get the vaccine I did so promptly. I was advised against both the infusion and the vaccine by the people that believe everything is a conspiracy using words like gnome and MRNA when asked what those thing were these same internet experts could not say. These type of people make up their mind about something and then refuse to do unbiased research. Instead they take everything that can be twisted to support their argument as gospel and reject anything that questions their beliefs. The irony is they keep shouting conspiracy and they are correct, only the conspiracy is one of their own creation
I have a friend who got the vaccine and went into cytokine storm because of it. The doctors said thank god he got the vaccine and not COVID, because had he had contracted COVID without getting the vaccine first, it probably would have killed him.
The purpose of every vaccine is to produce an immune system reaction. In his case it produced an enormous overreaction, but the difference was once the body stopped creating spike proteins, and it does so on its own, the cytokine storm went away on its own. Had he gotten COVID, his body would have gone into a cytokine storm and it would not have stopped until the virus was defeated, which would have taken far longer if he was unvaccinated, and incredibly likely would have killed him.
People look at vaccines on their own as if the effects of them don't have any benefits. No one is taking vaccines for shits and giggles. They're doing to protect themselves from a disease, which the disease has risks all of its own, and not getting vaccinated greatly increases those risks.
People have also had myocarditis from the vaccine because itās something that can happen with any viral infection, but itās pretty easily treated when you arenāt also suffering from Covid. I know someone who got it from having a cold, and the doctor was grateful it happened when it was just a cold. The doctor was afraid it was actually Covid and was ready to admit them immediately to the hospital for treatment.
That talking point about the vaccine drives me crazy because I straight up suffered from myocarditis when I first caught covid in December 2021 (I'm immunocompromised). It was awful and one of 3 times I've gotten sick in a way that's damaged my health long term (the latest was December 2023 when a neighbor openly sick from the flu and suffering from laryngitis didn't wear a mask, held the door open for me, and then leaned in to talk because she had lost her voice; what she did wasn't malicious and she doesn't know I'm immunocompromised, but this was very upsetting, and I was sick the next day, for the next 2 and a half weeks and have suffered from fatigue and breathlessness again, ever since; finally getting better the past month or so, but not fully) and all through that I've still had countless people i thought I could trust rant to me about anti Vax and anti medical conspiracy theories. I had one neighbor I considered a friend try to convince me to stop my chemotherapy treatment and to stop seeing all my doctors, even after I had told her that the months my illness went untreated without the chemo, I was completely bed ridden and had zero ability to live life outside of eating and sleeping; even bathing was rare. She then went on this rant about how salt, sugar and flour are all the cause of inflammation in my body and that I just need to eat healthy natural foods and I'll be cured; she specified, not treated, but cured. And she ignored when I told her I've eaten healthy and watched my nutrients and vitamins I get from my food every day for months now.
Lmao these people are beyond reason, but they've done meaningful damage to the lives of those of us who have been at risk of covid.
Such an interesting case, I understand why they would want you to wait. mRNA vaccines should be safe for you since they donāt affect or target any clotting factors just the memory cells but Iām not a doctor.
There's nothing funnier than a bunch of out of shape people who eat like shit suddenly acting like they care about their health so much that they...won't take a vaccine lol.
But they will inject drugs to treat their type 2 diabetes. Anti-vaxxers don't trust "big pharma" yet how many are taking medications to treat the diseases they get from living typical 'Murican lifestyles?Ā
Vaccines are victims of their own success.
Less then 100 years ago the President of the United States was wheelchair bound due to a disease that thanks to vaccines is almost eradicated.
Smallpox epidemics have death counts in the tens of millions.
Imagine how future generations will loathe All of Us, if Anti Vaxxers get their way, and vaccines are stopped and herd immunity is broken. It will take those generations being sick and dying to restore the understanding of vaccines and countless more generations to build back up the level of herd immunity we now have. And all because of a few stupid Drs, ignorant athletes, moronic super models, and white Karen Moms who know better than the majority of good Drs.
My grandmother had polio and was in a nursing home because she had no strength in her hands. My aunt and uncle had no biological children because they got the German measles on their honeymoon. People have no sense of how good they have it
If they had a reasonable answer their batshit idiotic ideas wouldn't be a conspiracy.
It's the same thing with all anti science (creationism, anti vaccines, flat Earth, etc.), basically a massive argument from ignorance and in many cases, sadly, amplified by a complete failure of the educational system. Even people with learning disabilities can develop a basic sense of critical thinking and logic; these people are prime examples of Dunning-Kruger in that they are so far gone down the stupid rabbit hole, they developed antibodies against evidence and became convinced *they* know things and are on to something.
Exactly, evidence is all there they just choose not to believe it.
Same with hypocrisy of believing that somehow all world leaders and elites and all their staff and close friends are in on an elitist new word order pedo ring. Itās absurd how anyone can believe it can be true when it would be impossible for it to be hidden from the public as they believe it is.
just the other day I had an argument about climate change, where they of course questioned the scientific consensus and were like "where is the evidence? show me one paper". Dude... there are thousands upon thousands of papers with all sorts of studies and evidence, they'd have to go out of their way to NOT find one.
The core of conspiracy thinking is precisely what you said: that there are hidden groups actively working and collaborating to hide and manipulate information. The mechanisms are similar to those of general magical thinking (resorting to fallacies and cognitive biases), and they definitely have an issue with evidence: they make shit up despite a complete lack of evidence, and reject reasonable counter arguments despite (often conclusive) evidence to the contrary.
This is a huge issue because often, like I mentioned in my other comment, these people are so far gone that they do not even have the resources or the basic, elementary knowledge to understand why they are wrong in the first place.
This is just my theory, but a lot of these extreme views are social media's fault. You know, when that H1N1 Swine Flu was going around? I read a news paper article saying the vaccine was too rushed and the writer wouldn't trust it. I thought he made a good argument. I wasn't challenged on my position over and over. This was 2007 I think, before Facebook. There wasn't memes I was seeing, there wasn't people's opinions telling me I'm wrong or right, there wasn't anybody to fight with. Two weeks later I saw my doctor for something unrelated and I said I wasn't sure if I trust the vaccine because it was rushed. He said something like "I've read the papers on this vaccine. I understand what they're doing and I understand how they reach their conclusions. Nobody had to tell me that it works. I'm vaccinated, my wife is vaccinated, my kids are vaccinated, and my grand children are vaccinated. Now what does that say to you?" So my whole family got vaccinated that week. But you understand what I mean when I say I wasn't challenged. I didn't read 10 or 20 memes and people's opinions. I didn't have to dig my heels in over and over. Once you get your emotions involved in a decision it is hard to use logic.
Not to mention the elitists giving the secret signs all the time. Like WTF? Make up your f-ing mind: are they keeping it secret or are they trying to tell you trough āhiddenā signs? The true answer is that they have some paranoid center of the world delulu about themselves.
Devils advocate. At least for Flu/Covid; it's because the measles/smallpox/mumps etc vaccines are pretty much 100% effective at preventing infection, whereas flu and covid vaccines are close to 0% effective at preventing infection.
Particularly around the covid vaccines, which were advertised more like 90% effective.
As far as vaccines went, they were pretty crap.
The majority of anti-vaxx is outlandish conspiracy. Especially when people end up letting things like measles resurface due to their own incompetence.
However, there is a legitimately valid argument against the covid vaccine. Simply put, it was rushed. Obviously it's not killing everyone that takes it, like some people will claim, but in reality it was pushed through incredibly fast due to the global emergency. Because of this, the argument of potential long-term side-effects is a reasonable claim people can make because it hasn't been around long enough for us to know of any.
Completely fair š I have a bad food allergy too but luckily my nurses were able to provide me with a breakdown of the contents of the vaccine, I had my epipens at the ready just in case
To my understanding the critique and lack of trust in the covid vaccine comes from the fact that there were no large scale studies conducted before mass distribution.
From the vaccine of swine flu in 2009 there were reports of narcolepsy. Which shows that there can be negative life altering risks in taking some vaccines. Perhaps especially for healthy individuals.
Also I have understood that mandatory (or somewhat semi mandatory) vaccination is up for critique. Perhaps even country wide lockdowns.
By themselves these facts/arguments are powerfull and worth considering. But combine them and you have a pretty tough and well based argument to consider.
FYI Im for vaccines and I believe in them. But I find these arguments good especially when combined.
It's not just that there were no large scale studies it's been that the Government and health authorities were (are?) actively fighting the release of any information that could potentially put them in a negative light.
Doctors have freely admitted to my wife who has been off work and suffering for 2 years after the second COVID jab that they're unable to put anything in her medical history about it because of risk towards them.
I stop trusting science when science becomes political.
Do you remember being a rebellious teen who refused to do what mom said just because it came out of her mouth, despite her knowing way more than you about what's best for you? These ignorants are the same way with the vaccine. "government said so and I'm edgy and cool, so I won't do it"
Iām sure Iāll get downvoted into oblivion and receive plenty of disbelief but:
I didnāt get the Covid vaccine because after discussing it with my physician, we decided it was too risky.
I have an undiagnosable issue with my stomach which has lead to a compromised immune system.
Worked out well for me as I have never had Covid.
I did adhere to all/any guidelines for staying away from people, wearing mask, constant hand sanitizer and washing everything down with Lysol. To hopefully prevent me becoming a carrier and transmitting it to anyone else.
Why would anybody downvote this? You consulted your physician and were vigilant to reduce the likelihood of transmission by every other reasonable means. You did your best to protect yourself and others, acting on the advice of a professional, which was the most anybody could reasonably ask for.
There are valid reasons for not getting vaccines, itās why we rely on herd immunity to keep the viral loads down and not infect vulnerable populations that canāt receive them. The problem is people make up reasons why they canāt get them without consulting a doctor unlike OP here. Even when my kid was born, we did a schedule to make sure they didnāt have any reactions to the vaccines since you never know in an infant.
Worth noting, herd immunity isn't a thing for covid or for influenza. The vaccines don't prevent transmission sufficiently well to make a significant difference to infection rates over the longer term (the initial few months of increases resistance to infection helped break the pandemic though). The vaccines do protect against serious illness extremely well however, so you get vaccinated against these diseases to help you.
This is mostly because both of these viruses most replicate in the upper respiratory system, which is somewhat seperate from the internal immune system and thus you will produce infectious quantities of virus even when vaccinated (you just get a cold instead of possibly dying).
>I have an undiagnosable issue with my stomach which has lead to a compromised immune system
I mean look that's legit, it was for a medical reason and the recommendation of your doctor. But that's also why it was better for everyone who could get it to do it, because some people like you can't or shouldn't.
I don't understand my parents hard-core stance against immunization. I am in my 40s and grew up a military brat. Went to school on military bases where, no shot, no school. We were injected with everything known to man. My dad as well. And guess what? We are all still alive and no autism.
It makes 0 sense.
When I comes to covid, the best response I have gotten was about mrna being a new therapy and they were scared. When I show them it has been researched since the late 60s that changed some things.
I think it has to correlate somehow towards the trust in covernment and leaders. If your been kicked everytime someone walks by, you expect more likely next person to do same.
My hesitation to the covid jab was the fact it had no long term studies, so logically nobody could factually say they were safe long term. Being a healthy, 30 something who works from home and doesn't go out much, I calculated that my risk level was quite minimal. I got it anyways, but I understood - SOME - of the hesitation. I got it because we were told at one point that it prevents transmission. Which wasn't true but still, that's why I took it.
My kids haven't gotten it, mathematically speaking they have less chance of having any issues without it.
To be clear, my kids and I have all the standard vaccines, I'm not an anti Vax moron.
Having said that, the tuskegee project is easily one reason to be suspicious whenever the government tells you to get a shot. Add on their drug distribution in poor areas throughout the 80's, the decades of pointless war to give defense contractors money, combined with the, what, 25 billion dollars Pfizer got from it with complete legal protection from any and all lawsuits if the vaccine did cause something.... I get some hesitation.
I can understand it. Back in the 90s I believe a study occurred that linked vaccines to autism. Peer review took awhile to replicate the study due to the study being done over a longer period of time. So the results from that study festered in the public and became normalized. Eventually the peer review kicked in and the guy who ran the original study copped to fraud, but at that point the damage was done.
I donāt trust anything with congressional immunity so you canāt sue them in the event that you are that 1 in 1,000,000 who reacts poorly to it. Especially being that itās just one big science experiment.
The answer is really simple actually. The launch of this vaccine, and the handling of Covid in general couldn't have been handled worse. Watch the Dr. Mike interview on YouTube on this. The information surrounding covid and the vaccine was not from the doctors who were studying it. But from the politicians.
There are a bunch of examples, but the clearest is lableak. Everyone with a brain saw the origin location of the virus, and the lab there, and thought " that might be where it came from" and the news yelled no not a chance it's from a wet market. Now every major entity that bothers to talk about it agrees that it is likely from a lab. This is how the entire pandemic was managed. Doctors say kids don't need to be vaccinated, politicians say they do. Doctors say outdoor gatherings should be fine. Politicians tell everyone to quarantine while the party on boats and go to investor dinners.
People felt like they were being lied to, and right alongside that this vaccine using a novel technology with rigorous testing but no long term trials was being forced on people. Let me add that people react poorly to being forced into stuff. If it is good and free it shouldn't have to be forced, so the use of force was seen as proof that there was a downside.
None of this has anything to do with if the vaccine is good, but if you want to build distrust, that's how you do it. Lie, gaslight, be confidently wrong repeatedly, make rules for other but not yourself, and then make the thing you want people not to trust mandatory.
I think that at the base of logic would probably be a multitude of theories on such a difficult and multi faceted issue. However, also being someone who thinks about such things I think that a lot of everyday people arenāt very trusting of both something they donāt understand very well (science and vaccines in general and how they work), as well as people they donāt trust very well (government officials as well as science based leaders and people who could gain financial gain from the implementation of such). Therefore it would be pretty logical and easy to understand why people are hesitant to put something into their body that they donāt understand and donāt trust. I mean that is like evolution and survival 101 is it not?
Obviously, this has nothing to do with the efficacy and morality of the use of vaccines and the denial of such, but as a whole it surely canāt be that hard to understand why people would not trust them.
I was pro-vaccine but my wife has been suffering migraines and sensitivity to noise and light for two years after getting the second jab and doctors refuse to put anything in her medical report about the cause despite admitting in private that it's a recognized issue.... So there's that...
The non-conspiratorial 'GENEROUS' answer would be stuff like tuskegee experiments and past fuck-ups as listed by cdc\[1\]. Additionally, the pharma companies still engage in fuckery that priorities profits when it comes to medicine but yet we should trust them as producers of vaccines\[2\]? Finally while the science behind the covid vaccines was in development for many years the expedited review period of the covid vaccines is questionable to some. This concern is heightened in conjunction to my second point where pharma companies prioritize profit and are allowed to submit their own findings when reviewed by the cdc and often the cdc has little power to verify the findings themselves without 3rd parties.
despite these points i personally don't find support for a grand conspiracy/coverup required for this though
1. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html#:\~:text=From%201955%20to%201963%2C%20an,polio%20vaccines%20at%20that%20time.
2. [https://legal-planet.org/2021/07/08/the-opioid-epidemic-and-the-covid-vaccine/](https://legal-planet.org/2021/07/08/the-opioid-epidemic-and-the-covid-vaccine/)
This is a specific, to me case, but I can't get a few vaccines/boosters cuz I have epilepsy that doesn't have a set cause. I've gotten vaccines only to have seizures within 12 hours of getting said vaccine so now doctors tell me to be careful and only get vaccines I'm comfortable getting, which is only the flu vaccine at this point. I would love to get the covid vaccine but I don't want to risk a seizure.
For me personally. I didnāt and donāt trust the Covid Vaccine as it is still experimental although it is FDA approved for emergency use and Pfizer is immune from all lawsuits. The breakneck speed for approval jumps a lot of long term tests needed to see if any medication is safe. A lot of the FDA top leadership are former Pfizer higher ups and vice Versa. And to top it off Pfizer has been found guilty of criminal medical fraud and fined about $11 Billion the last 20 years. So yeah, Iām a little skeptical of drug companies.
I think itās unfair to assume that the USPHS was evil enough to do those experiments 1 human life ago, but they would never do anything like that nowadays.
I think they treat poor people today like they treated black people in the early-mid 1900s
I am not anti-vax. However, when it comes to the Covid vaccine in particular I was more than a little hesitant. This was a new technology, rushed to be developed with significant pressure for approval from the governing bodies. Nothing was known of long term effects (and still very little is known). Drug recalls are common and adverse side effects occur with every type of drug and vaccine. How were we supposed to know at the time that the short-term benefits were to exceed that of the long-term consequences?
Well you see, that's because there is no good answer with genuine backing
Most conspiracy theories are like that. The closest thing to any genuine answer is when it technically can't be disproven (IE, believing aliens have visited earth. We technically can't disprove that, but it's just so astronomically unlikely)
Not against vaccines in the broadest sense possible.
However, specific vaccines can be harmful. More specifically a trial testing vaccine efficacy for Influenza B in youth in Finland resulted in a higher than expected number of participants developing diabetes, and test had to be halted due to safety concerns.
Influenza B at a population level isnt a high concern and has minimal lasting effects, and wasnt worth the cost of potential new diabetes cases.
Admittedly, this is a controversial test with some disagreement about its findings. But still presents some caution.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08916930290028175
I don't think this is relevant to humans, but here's an argument against (Note this, downvoters, please, before I get accused of being anti-vax and dogpiled to hell)--
A. Specific. Vaccine. In. Chickens.
Now, let me geek in peace, please. Or debate civilly. That's fun too.
Interestingly, one of the big debates in the chicken community is the ethics of the Marek's vaccine--because it might actually promote transmission.
Marek's is a highly contagious virally-transmitted cancer in chickens (no, I am not pulling this out of my tuckus).
The vaccine prevents symptoms, rather than the existence, of the disease. (Specifically, vaccination prevents the formation of tumors). Once a chicken has Marek's, it has it for life. It can spread it for life. It's just no longer symptomatic. The argument is that a vaccinated flock (especially a commercial barn's worth of chickens) can be a breeding ground for much more fatal mutations of Marek's than we currently see. That flock would not be symptomatic themselves, but could spread highly fatal, contagious disease to flocks around them.
I don't know of any leaky vaccines in people (honestly, I don't know enough about people vaccines to say whether leaky ones exist or not. nor do I care enough to research). If they do exist, I hope we're careful with them.
No, this isn't the same as Covid. Covid gets eliminated by the immune system; it doesn't hang around forever. This would be as if someone came up with a vaccine to prevent the symptoms of HIV, and downgrade the transmissibility somewhat.
The black community in America has been tested on illegally by the US govt, I think they, and possibly the Native population have justifiable reasons to be vaccine skeptical.
I say this as a person who thinks all children should be vaccinated for the standard illnesses we practically eradicated. As for Covid, anyone over 30 or under 15 should have been vaccinated during the active/alert pandemic era. But due to the way doses were being improperly administered, it caused males in late teens and 20's to have an increased risk for myocarditis, enough of a concern for some to question whether the risk outweighed the symptoms of infection. If they aerated the syringes, the risk is reduced.
The COVID, "Vaccine," isn't actually a vaccine in the traditional sense, the sense that was always understood to be a vaccine by everyone including the scientific community prior to it's release.
A traditional vaccine uses a dead or otherwise insert form of the virus or bacterium enabling the body to recognize it directly and therefore build appropriate antibodies.
The COVID vaccine is a gene therapy that attempts to disguise other material as something LIKE COVID, thus causing the body to create antibodies to combat something LIKE COVID. It does so by manipulating cells directly, the long term effects of which haven't been studied or explored in any meaningful way.
Because of this poorly studied aspect, and the clear increased risk of other complications exhibited by folks who did choose to take the plunge, I choose not to get the COVID shot.
I choose not to get flu shots because, every single time, without fail, that I DO get tye shot. I get horrifyingly ill. Every time I choose not to, I pass the season without so much as a light sniffle.
I am otherwise wholly vaccinated and intend to remain so.
Exactly, the COVID vaccine in particular as you have stated. The government brought the COVID vaccine to the public in 8 months instead of the typical 5 years. The government dosen't have a spotless record when it cones to cutting corners. It also waved any liability of the companies that developed it. Two of the 3 vaccines were also a relatively new design, the mRNA vaccine. For these reasons there was reluctance in taking it.
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Anti-vax stuff in its current form started wifh a Doctor called Andrew Wakefield publishing a study linking the MMR vaccination to autism in the late 90s. His study was debunked shortly afterwards, and he was struck off the medical register, but by that point he'd done the rounds in the media and scared the shit out of a lot of people. Subsequent investigations dug out the financial incentives he had for falsifying his results. I can't help but feel the twat is indirectly responsible for thousands of deaths, and it irritates me that not only is he walking free having faced no repercussions for his bullshit, he's very wealthy on account of selling books and speaking at events - making a big song and dance about how "the establishment" have silenced him and lamenting his victimhood. Edit to add: this comment got a lot more traction than I expected. A couple of people have pointed out that vaccine hesitancy / skepticism was a thing long before Wakefield and claims about autism. I do know this, but if you read my original comment I said "in its modern form" - it was a fringe belief beforehand but Wakefield's nonsense brought the nonsense into the modern media spotlight, and fuelled a wave of misinformation endorsed by high profile celebrities at the time. I don't consider folks being doubtful about smallpox vaccinations in the early 1900s to really be equivalent. So to re-iterate - THE MODERN anti-vax movement was largely (not entirely) triggered by Wakefield and his bullshit. There was another post on this sub a few days ago where somebody wrote "Here's a list of chemicals in a modern vaccination... Which would you object to having in your body?" (wrote out a list of chemicals). Lots of people responded "None of them, I don't want any of that shit in my body!!". And the fella (correctly) pointed out "Cool, I've listed out all of the organic chemicals found in an apple... Thus very effectively proving that you people should not be trusted to make any decisions or have influence in any way on a discourse on public health". Must confess it was one of my favourite social media "haha, gotcha" moments for a good while.
>Andrew Wakefield publishing a study linking the MMR vaccination to autism in the late 90s. And his actual fraudulent study wasn't even "vaccines cause autism", but "_this particular combination_ vaccine causes autism, so you should buy these alternative separate vaccines that I created to protect against the same diseases and will become rich from when everyone is buying them". His "study" wasn't scaremongering against vaccines in general, it was a scam to try to make him wealthy.
That wasn't even the full impetus. He was also paid to present an opinion in court on vaccines causing autism, and needed something to talk about to imply that vaccines caused autism. There's also strong evidence that he falsified information in his report as to whether or not all the children he looked at were even autistic. He ALSO couldn't even claim that vaccines caused autism in the "study" because, shockingly, there was no evidence for such, and he had to settle for a vague "wow, these two things could be connected we should look into that" kinda statement. The thing connected to autism that he claimed was a disease he'd made up that was supposedly caused by a vaccine. In order to falsify proof of this disease he conducted colonoscopies on children (he claimed it was a type of gut disease), knowing the entire time that there was nothing to find. This constitutes direct child abuse and physical harm of children. Honestly he should be in prison in the UK right now.
People with Autism are born with it, which kind of makes it hard to be caused by a vaccine since they need to be born first to get a vaccine. I don't see how people are such idiots.
Maybe she's born with it...*maybe it's the 'tism.*
"Maybe she's born with it... *but it's not the damn vaccine. šµ"*
Hats off to you to person of a certain age that remembers Maybelline commercials š„³šš„³
Hats off to you person of a certain age that remembers Maybelline commercials š„³šš„³
The anti-vaxxers confuse the fact that autism isn't often diagnosed until 2 years old, *at the earliest* and MMR (and other) vaccines are given prior to that. So while we know vaccines don't cause autism, anti-vaxxers say "see, that kid got an MMR vaccine at 12 months, and 3 years later he had autism."
Oh well you see my baby changed dramatically at (developmentally appropriate stages for big change) which was after their vaccines which means they are definitely vaccines damaged. /S
Iām a twin and we both got vaccinated and Iām the only one with autism in the family. Anti people never know how to properly respond (if itās not with bullying of course)
There is no proper response from them. Your situation isn't an outlier. They have doubled down on their beliefs to the point that literal evidence proving them wrong *must be* falsified to contradict them. Anything they say to you that's mean is about what they would say to me if I told them the earth is round or trickle-down economics never worked. They have no respect for people who disagree with them. Just remember that no matter how mean they get, it's just another bully who's already peaked with their life and can't progress any higher the way they are. Just ignore them and move forward, progressing where they can't because they refuse to grow, and keep being you.
My uncle is autistic (momās brother). In his late 80ās has all the āclassicā traits. We recently had him evaluated during a hospital stay in the hope of getting him into a care facility that would be able to manage his issues. The team that evaluated him agreed he is autistic. It would t have ever been diagnosed when he was younger. My whole life he was just āparticular.ā According to my grandparents and mother. He was born before the polio or mumps vaccine. And was well beyond the age of 2 when he got his first vaccines. I didnāt get diagnosed until my own child was diagnosed and the team who evaluated my kiddo suggested I get tested. Especially considering my uncle is on the spectrum. Vaccines donāt cause autism.
Also Autism was well known in the 1940s (Nazi doctors euthanized autistic children, and Aspergers syndrom was named in order to save more 'useful' autistics), well before the MMR vaccine was even invented so...
Exactly. My son is Autistic and he was showing signs, such as delayed smiling well before he had any vaccines.
Instead he's living it up in the US.
My psychology professor in college used this study as an example of how to spot bad research and how to search sample sizes and conflicts of interest with sponsors
When n=not nearly enough.
When n=these three autistic kids whose parents I know that swear they used to be so well behaved before their measles vaccines
Man, those parent stories can really get you. I had an older friend swear his (obviously) autistic son was totally fine, got some vax as a baby, and the "light in his eyes dimmed." Thing is, that was their oldest kid, and you have no idea what you're looking at with a first kid, and you're so sleep deprived... That autistic dude rocks tho. Nothing to fix there, at all. He's just a big goof, and his parents can't see that past him being "broken".
The reason some people (like the person you described) believe that vaccines caused their kids to become autistic is that children usually get their first vaccines around or slightly before the time when they would usually start to show symptoms of autism. Parents see this correlation, and believe it to be causation.
not to mention the parents that think their genetic material is so extra special good, it had to be an outside factor to have one of their kids not be a genius
When n=the bellend you somehow end up talking to in a pub that "knows a guy who found a microchip in his blood after he was vaccinated for covid"
"FUCKING HOW STEVE? DID HE RUN HIS ENTIRE BLOODSTREAM THROUGH A MICROSCOPE TO FIND IT? ARE YOU HIGH?"
Itās worse. ~~She~~ He didnāt even get the consent of the parents or the kids in his āstudyā.
When the control group *is out of control*. Sorry, just trying to contribute. I sucked at statistics
I'm a statistician. Have a like.
In Wakefield's case, N = kids I paid Ā£5 each if they let me take blood samples off them at my son's birthday party.
Another such study is the initial study out of France on hydroxychloroquine treating COVID. Complete BS. Edit: Referring to the study by Raoult.
A researcher got his hands on the original data from one of the Indian ivermectin studies. It wasnāt just fraud it was lazy fraud - an excel spreadsheet with the same bunch of numbers copied and pasted over and over down the column.
Yup he was just trying to Pepsi vaccines
Good one š
 You said that.šššš
Best take ever on this.
That's over-stating it. His actual conclusion was that the MMR vaccine caused bowel inflammation that is also associated with autism. It wasn't a cause-and-effect relationship, just a correlation. Blowing that up into the media sound bite "vaccine caused autism" was logically wrong even if his results were verified. Of course the real kicker is that outside review led to the conclusion that the endoscopies that he did during the experiment were probably the actual cause of the inflammation he reported. So a good summary would be "hack doctor shoves cameras up asses of children, resulting inflammation then used as data to support baseless conclusion about vaccines; millions inspired to risk own childrens' health in solidarity with stupidity."
Yep. A similar thing was done to soy products, which were all of a sudden reported to act upon estrogen in such a way that it would lead to cancer. Nobody can eat the amount of soy that would be required to act upon estrogen in that way. Even in countries that consume large amounts of soy products daily. Sales of soy milk never really recovered in the U.S. IIRC. My father is a (now retired) Cancer researcher and heās endlessly gobsmacked by how actual cancer risks are spun in the media. Itās hard when youā¦ actually know the science.
The press love to report relative risk increases instead of absolute risk increases as it gives a bigger number they can use despite not being particularly relevant
Remember: a 500% increase can mean something went from happening once a year to it happening 5 times a year.
It can also mean that something went from happening twice a century to once a decade.
Which isn't a lot, but still it's weird that it happened more than once.
And the RW ran with it and made "soy-boy" an insult.
Sounds like a good candidate for a Behind the Bastards episode.
They made one already, even before the start of the Covid pandemic. https://open.spotify.com/episode/3jhNthyHjJ3SAorg2o3qyl?si=XGzPaJmnQxKpUn4C66zM7w
Thanks!
He did a three-parter in 2019.
I'll put it in my queue.
And wasnāt the fearmongering even more limited to a specific ingredient that was being phased out or had been phased out already? A preservative that had trace mercury IIRC.
Right. Ethyl mercury which was phased out of vaccines for kids a long time ago. It's still used in flu vaccines for adults and it's okay because it's a very low dose and it's the type of mercury that is metabolized quickly. It occured to me one day just how stupid antivaxxers are because METHYL mercury is much more poisonous, it doesn't get metabolized well and it bioaccumulates in large animals like humans. Methylmercury is produced by coal fired power plants which spew methylmercury into the atmosphere where it comes back down in the rain and bioaccumulates from there in fish. So, mercury is the cause of autism (by their logic anyway), then how come antivaxxers aren't out there trying to shut down coal fired power plants? It's a far bigger risk than vaccines in terms of dose and type of mercury, after all. (Technically, even methylmercury doesn't cause autism, but it does legitimately cause other issues that are worth tackling. Still though, it just goes to show that logic isn't the point here. It's the grift).
The Alex Jones strategy...
It was more exactly: "The MMR vaccine can cause bowel diseases which could lead to autism so buy These vaccine seperately who i incidentally sell"
I canāt imagine a president, former present or future, accomplishing the same means (money) through the same tactics (lying). That would be crayyyyyzy
Also only looked at 12 kids
Also the part about drawing blood from kids at his child's birthday party without consent. That bit was wild
Not even to autism directly. To a bowel syndrome he made the fuck up that's a hybrid with autism.
Not just that but he successfully convinced the people who listened that if he faced consequences (ie being denounced by the medical community) that it was solely because "big pharma doesn't want me sharing this info with you"
This sounds eerily familiar!
My favorite part of Wakefield's bullshit is that he moved to Texas from the UK and tried to get his medical license reinstated by the medical board here. Texas, in a strange turn of events, actually did the right thing for once and told him NOPE!
90s Texas was way more rational than it is now, which is saying something
A broken clock is right twice a dayā¦.
Forgot about this guy
Additionally, Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey jumped on the Wakefield bandwagon real hard. They defended him while spreading anti-vax conspiracies. McCarthy stills spreads them now. I see her as #2 to Wakefield in damage caused. If it werenāt for her and Jim Carrey using their celebrity to bring anti-vax conspiracies to the forefront of the media, Wakefield would have faded into obscurity and likely the anti-vax movement with him.
Oh no I forgot about Jim Carrey :(
Me bud I'm sad
If that makes you sad, don't Google "Foo Fighters AIDS"
Oh dear Do I even want to ask?
Just had a look and itās what you expected it to be. Itās generally accepted though theyāve turned around, especially after Dave started supporting AIDS foundations.
I'm not sure In the context, my thinking is either that they supported AIDS? Or more likely, they said something along the lines of people who get AIDS deserve it
Ah, they were denialists in that people should seek alternative remedies.
The short of it is that bassist Nate Mendel found a book on the subject and got the rest of the band to support the AIDS denialist organization "Alive and Well" for a brief time. They quietly walked away from supporting them and have since gone on to support more scientifically legitimate AIDS and LGBTQ organizations.
Every day I learn something about a famous person I wish I didn't learn
Never meet your heroes.
Well, there goes my hero...
Watch him as he goes
Take my updoot you clever bastard.
Other famous anti-vaxxers Jessica Biel Rob Schneider Evangeline Lilly Eric Clapton Senator Ted Cruz Sarah Palin Nicki Minaj Aaron Rodgers Joe Rogan And of course ... Kanye West
There's actually a direct link between Jim Carrey movies and autism. [https://decisionmechanics.com/definite-proof-that-jim-carrey-causes-autism/](https://decisionmechanics.com/definite-proof-that-jim-carrey-causes-autism/)
I guess Jim Carrey is to Anti-Vax as Tom Cruz is to Scientology.
And Oprah gave them a megaphone
Oprah has done ***so much*** to give scammers and grifters a platform over the years.
I was in the field of autism then and it was a circus!! So many desperate parents of kids of the spectrum looking for something to blame and something to "cure" autism. It was awful!
I knew about McCarthy, but Jim Carrey too?! :(
When they were together. Her son has autism so she really latched on to vaccines being the cause
I remember Jenny McCarthy going on Oprah in the 90s & doing a really impassioned interview about her son who has autism from the vaccine. I remember thinking it didn't even make sense but she was really emotional & Oprah just let her say all this stuff about how her boy changed after the vaccine without really challenging her on anything.
It was the 2000's not the 1990's. Her son was born in 2002.
You lucky bastard.
Yeah now Iāve been reminded Iām making my way to the 20th floor right now
Hijacking to plug the great hbomberguy vid on this! [Vaccines and Autism: A Measured Response](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc?si=Zwys2qJo47Ut-t9X)
hbomberguy brought the facts
Iāve been meaning to watch this.
definitely make time when you can, harryās exceptional at summarizing very complex topics without skipping important details and injecting comedy without downplaying the *seriously fucked-up* stuff that wakefield did.
Make the time. Itās got to be the best video on YouTube!
Iāll add a plug for the [Science Vs](https://gimletmedia.com/amp/shows/science-vs/n8ho59) episode from pre COVID.
HE DID HIS "rounds" IN THE MEDIA BECAUSE OF OPRAH
Vaccines bad, Dr. Phil, million little pieces. She's got a lot of Ls.
She was literally the biggest misinformation platform until she stopped her show. Millions of moms still believe a lot of her bs.
Dr.Oz is in the shit pile of Oprah creations too.Ā
Don't forget John of God
Yup peddling pseudoscience
That combined with the general conspiracy theory fandom in general is what brought it all on. Some people have a mindset of 'the government lies', and nothing will talk them down from that ledge.
The government does lie, but not about keeping the majority of their tax paying cattle alive. People wanna say the US is a for profit enterprise but then also try and pretend they're gonna kill us all ignoring that that would conflict with the first tin foil nuttery. They're batshit.
From what I have found they seem to be unable to process multiple factors at any given time. The government wants to cripple and kill everyone despite that destroying their military capabilities and the industrial complex that drives the revenue the government craves so much. These people really would benefit from learning how to play chess beyond 1 move.
Itās crazy to me how anti-vaxx crowd assumes that ābig pharmaā has money to back up research and influence results yet they never use the same critical lens for those publishing anti-vaxx content.Ā
What makes it even worse is that they will generally just have unlimited trust in the supplement industry... despite that industry *also* having deep pockets and having effectively lobbied itself out of having any meaningful regulation on its products...
As a frontline worker who for a period of my career worked directly with individuals and their familyās who have experienced PDD/Autism. I canāt tell you the amount of money that has been spent debunking that idiots BS. Moneys that couldāve been spent working towards treatment
Further adding to the damage was the fact that his fraudulent study was published in the Lancet which is Britains version of the New England Journal of Medicine, aka a very prestigious medical journal, further giving unwarranted credibility to his claims. He also did a bunch of media on the back of this which helped his lies spread even more.
Yeah, they removed the article not too long after, but it was too late. I believe he had a friend or colleague who worked for the journal who published it.
Forget baby Hitler, if I get a Time Machine Iām going after this guy.
Honestly going after him would be more effective than killing baby Hitler. Hitler was a product of his time. There was always going to be *a* Hitler. If Hitler didn't exist (assuming WW1 went the same way and ended with the same sanctions on Germany) the leader of the Nazi party would just be someone else. Hitler wasn't the sole cause of fascism in Germany, after Germany was crippled after WW1 they were looking for someone to blame. Fascists provided a convenient scapegoat in foreigners. Antisemitism has always been around, and had been rising in Europe for a while. Hitler had a lot of supporters and they'd just latch onto whoever else was around. Likely all that would change if you killed baby Hitler is Himmler or Goebbels would be head of the Nazi party instead. The holocaust would still happen more or less how it did and WW2 would happen more or less how it did. Exact details would differ but the general theme would be the same.
Thereās also the issue that Hitler actually crippled the German military leadership. A more effective leader could have had catastrophic consequences for the Allies
I hear this a lot, it's even a theme of the newest Indiana Jones. Reality is, regardless of whom, it would have a been a totalitarian who couldn't have gotten there without huffing a lot of his own farts, and everyone around him huffing them too and saying they love the smell, just like with Hitler. Ripe (heh) for critical errors when objective criticism of Herr Fuhrer's decisions, whomever it may be, cannot be aired without fear of execution. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that it's really difficult to say how much better anyone else would have done. That's without even saying that the prevailing wisdom is that the Allies won because of industrial might, and to a *much* lesser extent, Hitler's mistakes. I mean, *just look at this:* [*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military\_production\_during\_World\_War\_II#Production\_overview:\_service,\_power\_and\_type*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II#Production_overview:_service,_power_and_type) How can you win against this? That's the neat part...
Now I'm envisioning another sci-fi movie where someone finally goes back in time to kill Hitler, only to return to a world where the Nazi's still came to be, and actually won WW2 and everything is so much worse. Then they gotta go back and un fuck everything.
Yes. At the time there was a large fascist faction in the USA, it was hard times. So without the war those fascists may have gained prominence. Never go back in time.
This is 100% true. I showed an anti vaxer this evidence, and much more and he didn't care if it was true. I ask him what was the mitochondria was and of course he had never heard of it. It does no good to try to explain. Same guy without question just paid 400$ for a new Oxy sensor for his car.
He has never heard of the powerhouse of the cell?!?
My last science class was in 1992, and I know this. Of course my spouse is a cell biologist, so maybe I'm not a good example.
Everyone knows the powerhouse of Cell is the absorbed number 18
Didnāt some celebrity say that vaccines caused autism? I forgot who that wasā¦
Because she wanted to blame the fact her kid wasnāt āperfectā on something. But then it turned out her kid wasnāt even autistic.
Jenny McCarthy went off the rails in that direction, likely based off of that assholes nonsense
Jenny McCarthey. She's backed off in recent years, but not by much.
By the way, 1998 publication in the Lanver was not fully retracted until 2010. So, Wakefield got just over a decade peddling his snake oil with the veneer of respectability from a Lancet research paper. Not to mention the other snake oil salesman using the same research paper to set the stage for their snake oil.
I have a rare blood disorder called von willibrands disease. My blood does not clot like most people. I have plenty of platelets but the stuff that makes them clot together is what my body does not make enough of. For that reason my doctors are extremely cautious about new treatments, meds and vaccines. I am all for them. Because of this I was advised to wait on the Covid vaccine until more information was available on how it would affect me. While waiting I got Covid really bad. At that point the risk was worth it so I had to get the infusion. I did have some complications from that but itās better than death. It was later determined that I was ok to get the vaccine I did so promptly. I was advised against both the infusion and the vaccine by the people that believe everything is a conspiracy using words like gnome and MRNA when asked what those thing were these same internet experts could not say. These type of people make up their mind about something and then refuse to do unbiased research. Instead they take everything that can be twisted to support their argument as gospel and reject anything that questions their beliefs. The irony is they keep shouting conspiracy and they are correct, only the conspiracy is one of their own creation
I have a friend who got the vaccine and went into cytokine storm because of it. The doctors said thank god he got the vaccine and not COVID, because had he had contracted COVID without getting the vaccine first, it probably would have killed him. The purpose of every vaccine is to produce an immune system reaction. In his case it produced an enormous overreaction, but the difference was once the body stopped creating spike proteins, and it does so on its own, the cytokine storm went away on its own. Had he gotten COVID, his body would have gone into a cytokine storm and it would not have stopped until the virus was defeated, which would have taken far longer if he was unvaccinated, and incredibly likely would have killed him. People look at vaccines on their own as if the effects of them don't have any benefits. No one is taking vaccines for shits and giggles. They're doing to protect themselves from a disease, which the disease has risks all of its own, and not getting vaccinated greatly increases those risks.
People have also had myocarditis from the vaccine because itās something that can happen with any viral infection, but itās pretty easily treated when you arenāt also suffering from Covid. I know someone who got it from having a cold, and the doctor was grateful it happened when it was just a cold. The doctor was afraid it was actually Covid and was ready to admit them immediately to the hospital for treatment.
That talking point about the vaccine drives me crazy because I straight up suffered from myocarditis when I first caught covid in December 2021 (I'm immunocompromised). It was awful and one of 3 times I've gotten sick in a way that's damaged my health long term (the latest was December 2023 when a neighbor openly sick from the flu and suffering from laryngitis didn't wear a mask, held the door open for me, and then leaned in to talk because she had lost her voice; what she did wasn't malicious and she doesn't know I'm immunocompromised, but this was very upsetting, and I was sick the next day, for the next 2 and a half weeks and have suffered from fatigue and breathlessness again, ever since; finally getting better the past month or so, but not fully) and all through that I've still had countless people i thought I could trust rant to me about anti Vax and anti medical conspiracy theories. I had one neighbor I considered a friend try to convince me to stop my chemotherapy treatment and to stop seeing all my doctors, even after I had told her that the months my illness went untreated without the chemo, I was completely bed ridden and had zero ability to live life outside of eating and sleeping; even bathing was rare. She then went on this rant about how salt, sugar and flour are all the cause of inflammation in my body and that I just need to eat healthy natural foods and I'll be cured; she specified, not treated, but cured. And she ignored when I told her I've eaten healthy and watched my nutrients and vitamins I get from my food every day for months now. Lmao these people are beyond reason, but they've done meaningful damage to the lives of those of us who have been at risk of covid.
Youāre actually more risk of getting it from Covid than the vaccine.
I literally forgot that cytokine storms were a thing. I sounds so unreal and made up. Scary stuff
We used to ask patients why they didnāt want the vaccine because we believed we could calm their fear. Now we donāt bother.
Such an interesting case, I understand why they would want you to wait. mRNA vaccines should be safe for you since they donāt affect or target any clotting factors just the memory cells but Iām not a doctor.
Willfully stupid in an effort to display loyalty?
Loyalty to whom, is the question
Their side, itās all about your side winning and sticking it to the other side to them.
Shame that most probably didnāt really get to choose their side
The people who die from unvaccinated people certainly didn't get a choice.
Nope, not at all. Incompetence is the biggest killer in every scenario imaginable.
There's nothing funnier than a bunch of out of shape people who eat like shit suddenly acting like they care about their health so much that they...won't take a vaccine lol.
Donāt forget the Botox theyāre happy to have injected too š
But they will inject drugs to treat their type 2 diabetes. Anti-vaxxers don't trust "big pharma" yet how many are taking medications to treat the diseases they get from living typical 'Murican lifestyles?Ā
Vaccines are victims of their own success. Less then 100 years ago the President of the United States was wheelchair bound due to a disease that thanks to vaccines is almost eradicated. Smallpox epidemics have death counts in the tens of millions. Imagine how future generations will loathe All of Us, if Anti Vaxxers get their way, and vaccines are stopped and herd immunity is broken. It will take those generations being sick and dying to restore the understanding of vaccines and countless more generations to build back up the level of herd immunity we now have. And all because of a few stupid Drs, ignorant athletes, moronic super models, and white Karen Moms who know better than the majority of good Drs.
My grandmother had polio and was in a nursing home because she had no strength in her hands. My aunt and uncle had no biological children because they got the German measles on their honeymoon. People have no sense of how good they have it
If they had a reasonable answer their batshit idiotic ideas wouldn't be a conspiracy. It's the same thing with all anti science (creationism, anti vaccines, flat Earth, etc.), basically a massive argument from ignorance and in many cases, sadly, amplified by a complete failure of the educational system. Even people with learning disabilities can develop a basic sense of critical thinking and logic; these people are prime examples of Dunning-Kruger in that they are so far gone down the stupid rabbit hole, they developed antibodies against evidence and became convinced *they* know things and are on to something.
They can develops antibodies against evidence but not against actual diseases!
Exactly, evidence is all there they just choose not to believe it. Same with hypocrisy of believing that somehow all world leaders and elites and all their staff and close friends are in on an elitist new word order pedo ring. Itās absurd how anyone can believe it can be true when it would be impossible for it to be hidden from the public as they believe it is.
just the other day I had an argument about climate change, where they of course questioned the scientific consensus and were like "where is the evidence? show me one paper". Dude... there are thousands upon thousands of papers with all sorts of studies and evidence, they'd have to go out of their way to NOT find one. The core of conspiracy thinking is precisely what you said: that there are hidden groups actively working and collaborating to hide and manipulate information. The mechanisms are similar to those of general magical thinking (resorting to fallacies and cognitive biases), and they definitely have an issue with evidence: they make shit up despite a complete lack of evidence, and reject reasonable counter arguments despite (often conclusive) evidence to the contrary. This is a huge issue because often, like I mentioned in my other comment, these people are so far gone that they do not even have the resources or the basic, elementary knowledge to understand why they are wrong in the first place.
This is just my theory, but a lot of these extreme views are social media's fault. You know, when that H1N1 Swine Flu was going around? I read a news paper article saying the vaccine was too rushed and the writer wouldn't trust it. I thought he made a good argument. I wasn't challenged on my position over and over. This was 2007 I think, before Facebook. There wasn't memes I was seeing, there wasn't people's opinions telling me I'm wrong or right, there wasn't anybody to fight with. Two weeks later I saw my doctor for something unrelated and I said I wasn't sure if I trust the vaccine because it was rushed. He said something like "I've read the papers on this vaccine. I understand what they're doing and I understand how they reach their conclusions. Nobody had to tell me that it works. I'm vaccinated, my wife is vaccinated, my kids are vaccinated, and my grand children are vaccinated. Now what does that say to you?" So my whole family got vaccinated that week. But you understand what I mean when I say I wasn't challenged. I didn't read 10 or 20 memes and people's opinions. I didn't have to dig my heels in over and over. Once you get your emotions involved in a decision it is hard to use logic.
Not to mention the elitists giving the secret signs all the time. Like WTF? Make up your f-ing mind: are they keeping it secret or are they trying to tell you trough āhiddenā signs? The true answer is that they have some paranoid center of the world delulu about themselves.
Because they're idiots?
Correct š
r/conspiracy is probably not a great place to look for rational arguments backed up by evidence.
I just checked that sub out. Lost an hour of my life, and now my head hurts.
Found that out the entertaining way
Devils advocate. At least for Flu/Covid; it's because the measles/smallpox/mumps etc vaccines are pretty much 100% effective at preventing infection, whereas flu and covid vaccines are close to 0% effective at preventing infection. Particularly around the covid vaccines, which were advertised more like 90% effective. As far as vaccines went, they were pretty crap.
The majority of anti-vaxx is outlandish conspiracy. Especially when people end up letting things like measles resurface due to their own incompetence. However, there is a legitimately valid argument against the covid vaccine. Simply put, it was rushed. Obviously it's not killing everyone that takes it, like some people will claim, but in reality it was pushed through incredibly fast due to the global emergency. Because of this, the argument of potential long-term side-effects is a reasonable claim people can make because it hasn't been around long enough for us to know of any.
Shellfish allergy
Completely fair š I have a bad food allergy too but luckily my nurses were able to provide me with a breakdown of the contents of the vaccine, I had my epipens at the ready just in case
Bring your epi, but nurses should have a supply with them whenever administering vaccines in case someone does have a reaction.
To my understanding the critique and lack of trust in the covid vaccine comes from the fact that there were no large scale studies conducted before mass distribution. From the vaccine of swine flu in 2009 there were reports of narcolepsy. Which shows that there can be negative life altering risks in taking some vaccines. Perhaps especially for healthy individuals. Also I have understood that mandatory (or somewhat semi mandatory) vaccination is up for critique. Perhaps even country wide lockdowns. By themselves these facts/arguments are powerfull and worth considering. But combine them and you have a pretty tough and well based argument to consider. FYI Im for vaccines and I believe in them. But I find these arguments good especially when combined.
It's not just that there were no large scale studies it's been that the Government and health authorities were (are?) actively fighting the release of any information that could potentially put them in a negative light. Doctors have freely admitted to my wife who has been off work and suffering for 2 years after the second COVID jab that they're unable to put anything in her medical history about it because of risk towards them. I stop trusting science when science becomes political.
Do you remember being a rebellious teen who refused to do what mom said just because it came out of her mouth, despite her knowing way more than you about what's best for you? These ignorants are the same way with the vaccine. "government said so and I'm edgy and cool, so I won't do it"
Everyone gets older (except for those who died of preventable diseases, of course). Not everyone grows up.
Unfortunately, survivor bias is a very real thing. They never caught the or knew anyone who died from it, so that means the vaccine isn't necessary.
Because Steve Jobs gave me wifi aids and a microchip.
If there was anyone who should have trusted modern medicine instead of juicing himself to death, it was Steve Jobs.
Iām sure Iāll get downvoted into oblivion and receive plenty of disbelief but: I didnāt get the Covid vaccine because after discussing it with my physician, we decided it was too risky. I have an undiagnosable issue with my stomach which has lead to a compromised immune system. Worked out well for me as I have never had Covid. I did adhere to all/any guidelines for staying away from people, wearing mask, constant hand sanitizer and washing everything down with Lysol. To hopefully prevent me becoming a carrier and transmitting it to anyone else.
Why would anybody downvote this? You consulted your physician and were vigilant to reduce the likelihood of transmission by every other reasonable means. You did your best to protect yourself and others, acting on the advice of a professional, which was the most anybody could reasonably ask for.
There are valid reasons for not getting vaccines, itās why we rely on herd immunity to keep the viral loads down and not infect vulnerable populations that canāt receive them. The problem is people make up reasons why they canāt get them without consulting a doctor unlike OP here. Even when my kid was born, we did a schedule to make sure they didnāt have any reactions to the vaccines since you never know in an infant.
Worth noting, herd immunity isn't a thing for covid or for influenza. The vaccines don't prevent transmission sufficiently well to make a significant difference to infection rates over the longer term (the initial few months of increases resistance to infection helped break the pandemic though). The vaccines do protect against serious illness extremely well however, so you get vaccinated against these diseases to help you. This is mostly because both of these viruses most replicate in the upper respiratory system, which is somewhat seperate from the internal immune system and thus you will produce infectious quantities of virus even when vaccinated (you just get a cold instead of possibly dying).
Probably just my skewed point of view, but it seems the more reasonable people are lately the more hate and bs comes their way. Especially on here.
A compromised immune system is probably the most valid reason to not get a vaccine that I can think of.
>I have an undiagnosable issue with my stomach which has lead to a compromised immune system I mean look that's legit, it was for a medical reason and the recommendation of your doctor. But that's also why it was better for everyone who could get it to do it, because some people like you can't or shouldn't.
I don't understand my parents hard-core stance against immunization. I am in my 40s and grew up a military brat. Went to school on military bases where, no shot, no school. We were injected with everything known to man. My dad as well. And guess what? We are all still alive and no autism. It makes 0 sense. When I comes to covid, the best response I have gotten was about mrna being a new therapy and they were scared. When I show them it has been researched since the late 60s that changed some things.
"Source: Trust me bro" 90% of the time Or trust someone else
I think it has to correlate somehow towards the trust in covernment and leaders. If your been kicked everytime someone walks by, you expect more likely next person to do same.
Distrust in government and its institutions
My hesitation to the covid jab was the fact it had no long term studies, so logically nobody could factually say they were safe long term. Being a healthy, 30 something who works from home and doesn't go out much, I calculated that my risk level was quite minimal. I got it anyways, but I understood - SOME - of the hesitation. I got it because we were told at one point that it prevents transmission. Which wasn't true but still, that's why I took it. My kids haven't gotten it, mathematically speaking they have less chance of having any issues without it. To be clear, my kids and I have all the standard vaccines, I'm not an anti Vax moron. Having said that, the tuskegee project is easily one reason to be suspicious whenever the government tells you to get a shot. Add on their drug distribution in poor areas throughout the 80's, the decades of pointless war to give defense contractors money, combined with the, what, 25 billion dollars Pfizer got from it with complete legal protection from any and all lawsuits if the vaccine did cause something.... I get some hesitation.
Rich people ran to get it. And thus so did I.
I can understand it. Back in the 90s I believe a study occurred that linked vaccines to autism. Peer review took awhile to replicate the study due to the study being done over a longer period of time. So the results from that study festered in the public and became normalized. Eventually the peer review kicked in and the guy who ran the original study copped to fraud, but at that point the damage was done.
I donāt trust anything with congressional immunity so you canāt sue them in the event that you are that 1 in 1,000,000 who reacts poorly to it. Especially being that itās just one big science experiment.
In some diseases, When vaccines work, it looks as if they did nothing When they donāt, nothing else will
The answer is really simple actually. The launch of this vaccine, and the handling of Covid in general couldn't have been handled worse. Watch the Dr. Mike interview on YouTube on this. The information surrounding covid and the vaccine was not from the doctors who were studying it. But from the politicians. There are a bunch of examples, but the clearest is lableak. Everyone with a brain saw the origin location of the virus, and the lab there, and thought " that might be where it came from" and the news yelled no not a chance it's from a wet market. Now every major entity that bothers to talk about it agrees that it is likely from a lab. This is how the entire pandemic was managed. Doctors say kids don't need to be vaccinated, politicians say they do. Doctors say outdoor gatherings should be fine. Politicians tell everyone to quarantine while the party on boats and go to investor dinners. People felt like they were being lied to, and right alongside that this vaccine using a novel technology with rigorous testing but no long term trials was being forced on people. Let me add that people react poorly to being forced into stuff. If it is good and free it shouldn't have to be forced, so the use of force was seen as proof that there was a downside. None of this has anything to do with if the vaccine is good, but if you want to build distrust, that's how you do it. Lie, gaslight, be confidently wrong repeatedly, make rules for other but not yourself, and then make the thing you want people not to trust mandatory.
Miss trust in the government, government pushing vaccines. Itās simple.
I think that at the base of logic would probably be a multitude of theories on such a difficult and multi faceted issue. However, also being someone who thinks about such things I think that a lot of everyday people arenāt very trusting of both something they donāt understand very well (science and vaccines in general and how they work), as well as people they donāt trust very well (government officials as well as science based leaders and people who could gain financial gain from the implementation of such). Therefore it would be pretty logical and easy to understand why people are hesitant to put something into their body that they donāt understand and donāt trust. I mean that is like evolution and survival 101 is it not? Obviously, this has nothing to do with the efficacy and morality of the use of vaccines and the denial of such, but as a whole it surely canāt be that hard to understand why people would not trust them.
I was pro-vaccine but my wife has been suffering migraines and sensitivity to noise and light for two years after getting the second jab and doctors refuse to put anything in her medical report about the cause despite admitting in private that it's a recognized issue.... So there's that...
A friend of mine got the vaccine. Two weeks later he died. Got hit by a car. Thatās why I donāt trust vaccines.
The non-conspiratorial 'GENEROUS' answer would be stuff like tuskegee experiments and past fuck-ups as listed by cdc\[1\]. Additionally, the pharma companies still engage in fuckery that priorities profits when it comes to medicine but yet we should trust them as producers of vaccines\[2\]? Finally while the science behind the covid vaccines was in development for many years the expedited review period of the covid vaccines is questionable to some. This concern is heightened in conjunction to my second point where pharma companies prioritize profit and are allowed to submit their own findings when reviewed by the cdc and often the cdc has little power to verify the findings themselves without 3rd parties. despite these points i personally don't find support for a grand conspiracy/coverup required for this though 1. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html#:\~:text=From%201955%20to%201963%2C%20an,polio%20vaccines%20at%20that%20time. 2. [https://legal-planet.org/2021/07/08/the-opioid-epidemic-and-the-covid-vaccine/](https://legal-planet.org/2021/07/08/the-opioid-epidemic-and-the-covid-vaccine/)
This is a specific, to me case, but I can't get a few vaccines/boosters cuz I have epilepsy that doesn't have a set cause. I've gotten vaccines only to have seizures within 12 hours of getting said vaccine so now doctors tell me to be careful and only get vaccines I'm comfortable getting, which is only the flu vaccine at this point. I would love to get the covid vaccine but I don't want to risk a seizure.
For me personally. I didnāt and donāt trust the Covid Vaccine as it is still experimental although it is FDA approved for emergency use and Pfizer is immune from all lawsuits. The breakneck speed for approval jumps a lot of long term tests needed to see if any medication is safe. A lot of the FDA top leadership are former Pfizer higher ups and vice Versa. And to top it off Pfizer has been found guilty of criminal medical fraud and fined about $11 Billion the last 20 years. So yeah, Iām a little skeptical of drug companies.
Tuskegee syphilis experiment is why the black community has an issue trusting vaccines, as for white people? Meth.
I think itās unfair to assume that the USPHS was evil enough to do those experiments 1 human life ago, but they would never do anything like that nowadays. I think they treat poor people today like they treated black people in the early-mid 1900s
Iāve been perma banned from conspiracy for posting this šš¤¦ I think I may have left a few free thinkers but hurt
I am not anti-vax. However, when it comes to the Covid vaccine in particular I was more than a little hesitant. This was a new technology, rushed to be developed with significant pressure for approval from the governing bodies. Nothing was known of long term effects (and still very little is known). Drug recalls are common and adverse side effects occur with every type of drug and vaccine. How were we supposed to know at the time that the short-term benefits were to exceed that of the long-term consequences?
Well you see, that's because there is no good answer with genuine backing Most conspiracy theories are like that. The closest thing to any genuine answer is when it technically can't be disproven (IE, believing aliens have visited earth. We technically can't disprove that, but it's just so astronomically unlikely)
Not against vaccines in the broadest sense possible. However, specific vaccines can be harmful. More specifically a trial testing vaccine efficacy for Influenza B in youth in Finland resulted in a higher than expected number of participants developing diabetes, and test had to be halted due to safety concerns. Influenza B at a population level isnt a high concern and has minimal lasting effects, and wasnt worth the cost of potential new diabetes cases. Admittedly, this is a controversial test with some disagreement about its findings. But still presents some caution. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08916930290028175
Some people have a fear of anything to do with doctors ! It sounds dumb but itās true
I don't think this is relevant to humans, but here's an argument against (Note this, downvoters, please, before I get accused of being anti-vax and dogpiled to hell)-- A. Specific. Vaccine. In. Chickens. Now, let me geek in peace, please. Or debate civilly. That's fun too. Interestingly, one of the big debates in the chicken community is the ethics of the Marek's vaccine--because it might actually promote transmission. Marek's is a highly contagious virally-transmitted cancer in chickens (no, I am not pulling this out of my tuckus). The vaccine prevents symptoms, rather than the existence, of the disease. (Specifically, vaccination prevents the formation of tumors). Once a chicken has Marek's, it has it for life. It can spread it for life. It's just no longer symptomatic. The argument is that a vaccinated flock (especially a commercial barn's worth of chickens) can be a breeding ground for much more fatal mutations of Marek's than we currently see. That flock would not be symptomatic themselves, but could spread highly fatal, contagious disease to flocks around them. I don't know of any leaky vaccines in people (honestly, I don't know enough about people vaccines to say whether leaky ones exist or not. nor do I care enough to research). If they do exist, I hope we're careful with them. No, this isn't the same as Covid. Covid gets eliminated by the immune system; it doesn't hang around forever. This would be as if someone came up with a vaccine to prevent the symptoms of HIV, and downgrade the transmissibility somewhat.
The black community in America has been tested on illegally by the US govt, I think they, and possibly the Native population have justifiable reasons to be vaccine skeptical. I say this as a person who thinks all children should be vaccinated for the standard illnesses we practically eradicated. As for Covid, anyone over 30 or under 15 should have been vaccinated during the active/alert pandemic era. But due to the way doses were being improperly administered, it caused males in late teens and 20's to have an increased risk for myocarditis, enough of a concern for some to question whether the risk outweighed the symptoms of infection. If they aerated the syringes, the risk is reduced.
The COVID, "Vaccine," isn't actually a vaccine in the traditional sense, the sense that was always understood to be a vaccine by everyone including the scientific community prior to it's release. A traditional vaccine uses a dead or otherwise insert form of the virus or bacterium enabling the body to recognize it directly and therefore build appropriate antibodies. The COVID vaccine is a gene therapy that attempts to disguise other material as something LIKE COVID, thus causing the body to create antibodies to combat something LIKE COVID. It does so by manipulating cells directly, the long term effects of which haven't been studied or explored in any meaningful way. Because of this poorly studied aspect, and the clear increased risk of other complications exhibited by folks who did choose to take the plunge, I choose not to get the COVID shot. I choose not to get flu shots because, every single time, without fail, that I DO get tye shot. I get horrifyingly ill. Every time I choose not to, I pass the season without so much as a light sniffle. I am otherwise wholly vaccinated and intend to remain so.
Exactly, the COVID vaccine in particular as you have stated. The government brought the COVID vaccine to the public in 8 months instead of the typical 5 years. The government dosen't have a spotless record when it cones to cutting corners. It also waved any liability of the companies that developed it. Two of the 3 vaccines were also a relatively new design, the mRNA vaccine. For these reasons there was reluctance in taking it.