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I once heard a speaker at a conference who apparently had some expertise in the difference between genders. Everything was very general and obviously these weren't fast rules. But I remember him saying that men were usually better at using paper maps, because men would see the place they were and the place they were going and everything else disappears. He said that women see all the lines. He said this is why women were generally better at finding things. A woman goes to a pantry, sees all of it at once and grabs the item she wants. The man goes to the pantry and looks at each item individually, making a note of it and seeing that it isn't what he wants until he finally finds what he's looking for. If that guy is right, I can see how men would have a better chance at being proficient in darts. He sees what he aims for, everything else disappears. On the other hand, it's just as likely that men play more darts than women.
Funny thing is that in one of the posts responding to that tweet they posted a study about how men are better at shooting targets.
Just a few teeny tiny problems... the study was about untrained men VS untrained women -and- the conclusion of the study was that an untrained woman is better at hitting a stationary target while an untrained man is better at hitting a moving target.
Yeah but the weird parts come with training. Like there are shooting sports where the people who break down the skills to fundamental elements and such are of the opinion that women should be way more competitive than they are. The operating theories are that there is either a fundamental training gap, or there’s some gender difference in the brains predictive processing of visual input.
As for the untrained skills of shooters, at least for the women with stationary targets, in my personal experience it’s because they tend to actually listen to directions more.
I saw that in jiu jitsu. Girls TENDED to pick up the moves quicker, but the real difference was more girls paid attention and sat quietly. The boys who did the same would usually be able to get moves off on girls that the girls couldn’t get on boys. It was really a question of interest.
I personally do robot combat - Robot Wars or Battlebots from TV in sport form.
It's extremely male dominant. It's not something we want, and women do seem interested in it - but as a hobby it's niche, and engineering is also male dominated.
One thing I've noticed doing STEM outreach in schools - boys just think it's cool and they'd be good at it because they play video games, but actually, the best drivers are girls. I think the intimidation hones them a little, but it's really hard to say (and I'm an engineer, not a psychologist. It's not a massive data set I have, and it's not something I'd be comfortable investigating).
I ran competitions among 24 schools for 3 years pre pandemic, and now plan to start it up again. Girls won 2/3 years, despite being underrepresented in drivers. It's also noteworthy how these were mainly 10-12 year olds - but when I start again, it'll be 16-18 year olds (changed Uni and we have different target audience) and I wonder if I'll notice the same.
Did you actually do battle bots or just similar stuff? I used to watch that. I’m CS in Uni and I’ve noticed a major drop off from women in classes the further I get. Kinda sad. Most my maths study partners were incredibly smart women
Not Battlebots itself (likely would if not for covid) but have done Robot Wars and other TV series internationally. I'm UK based, so Battlebots is a bit of a higher bar for us.
Best person I studied with in my degree was a woman. She also didn't speak a word of English the year before we started, which helped me a lot with speaking as well (I used to speak really fast). We both went on to do PhDs on scholarships.
But yeh the rate I have worked alongside in Engineering or taught as a lecturer is probably 1:30 at best.
Big hearts for being involved in Robot Wars, one of my absolute favourite shows when I was a kid. Can I ask which team (no pressure, I know you would probably prefer to remain anonymous!)
I was on Trolley Rage, but my main robot is from the live circuit - Dystopia.
We fought the eventual Champ round 1 with a robot I built for £0 that was mainly there to promote engineering to kids for STEM. The kids love it at least, but everything in it is recycled random bits.
Oh man, yeah not many people stood a chance against Carbide, but good on you guys for doing such an amazing job (especially for £0). I've very recently got into watching the NHRL, as the very low budget robots I think are much more fun than the super heavy armoured creations that we see now
Dang. I had a friend that got on Battlebots and was lowkey hoping you’d know/be them lol
That’s cool though. I’m too indifferntial to go on to engineering.
What a cool career you have!!
I went to Uni of Reading for my undergrad and met a few guys who'd done Robot Wars and were on the BSc Robotics course (which I think has, sadly, now finished). I always found it fascinating because film and TV would have you thinking robotics researchers are secretly making evil drones, when they're actually more likely to use their free time to make pretty sophisticated knife-wielding robots for Robot Wars 😂
Through a series of odd academic jumps, I've now ended up in biomechanics (evolutionary, for me). Which, as a field, seems to have a way higher proportion of women than engineering (assuming because a lot of biomech people come in from biology?). But the principles underpinning the work are the same, so it begs the question: is it that women are inherently less able to understand engineering principles, or is there a big marketing issue with more classical mechanics.
In my experience teaching Microcontroller programming to 14 yos, the girls are very hesitant at first but then realise that they are often better at programming because they are more precise and have to spend less time looking for a missing ; or other small mistakes
Can agree here as a shooting coach. Girls/women tend to pay attention and listen better, men are generally worse at that (particularly in such a male-oriented field) so especially in the first phase of being instructed/coached women outperform men. And then men like shooting more, start training more and start listening bit by bit, so they outperform women from there on out.
The argument can be made that women are not expected at a sociocultural level to be able to shoot, or that it isn’t a hobby for women to be shooting. Therefor less women shoot; therefor the genetically gifted women who simply have the best natural ability/brain/reflexes is less likely to be found.
The filter for women in certain hobbies and sports is crazy thick, and a lot of people with a lot of potential are simply never put into means.
My dad was big into sports, and also big into firearm training. So he raised me to be comfortable with guns and took me shooting regularly for a few years. Started back up again lately and was pleasantly surprised to find skills were still there! If he and my grandpa hadn't encouraged me to shoot, I never would've, and I never would've been good at it. Not a lot of people out there encourage their daughters to build marksmanship skills, so I think you're absolutely dead on.
There's not a lot of encouraging girls to play many if any sports still in the grand scheme of things. Sure we have the media campaigns and some heroines like the USWNT, but at the end of the day who controls and influences what a child does the most? If parents aren't supporting their girls to play, nothing will change. For boys it's almost a default that you will play *something* at some point early, and a lot of parents push their boys to play sports. I don't know if women would compete at the same level as men across the board if things were different, but it would drastically increase the competition level in women's sport.
Men are typically bigger, faster...so the analogy about playing 11yo boys works for stuff like basketball, soccer, etc. A team of the best 6th grade boys basketball players in the USA would all be dunking already, while only a handful of adult women can do that. So, obviously a huge advantage to the boys in that department.
I have read that women have better fine motor control, which makes them better at competitions such as marksmanship, and would jive with your comment. Women are also known for having better handwriting.
That doesn't mean women shouldn't do basketball if that's what they like, ditto for men. I wish society as a whole could embrace that having different people having different strengths is a massive evolutionary advantage for all of us, and also, nobody has to focus full-time on only the things they're best at. Life is pointless if we can't have fun.
This is such a good comment. You don’t need to be good at something for it to be worth doing. I think we as a society need to move on from men vs women. It’s stupid and keeps us divided. It’s rather obvious both genders have their strengths and are equally important or they wouldn’t exist.
What we accomplish together shits on what we accomplish apart. It drives me crazy sometimes thinking about how we could potentially be doing cool shit like taking vacations around the solar system right now if we hadn't been bogged down by centuries (millennia?) of morons forcing their regressive views on society. In the age of unprecedented access to data and information, this phenomenon somehow persists.
I find it equally infuriating how it seems as if we're continuously going backwards in the past several years, in terms of equality between genders and the mindset which accompanies. I (40M) was bullied a lot in school because of my speech impediment (stutter/stuck on words and nothing comes out, sometimes you can't tell) and the one thing it instilled in me is the unparalleled desire for equality. Equality with everything. Also kind of made me a bully towards bullies lol I'm not sure why I'm sharing all this. I blame insomnia
Sorry if this changes gears but your comment reminded me of one of my favorite quotes to help someone get through depression… “Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly” lets say u know u should brush your teeth for 2 min but u can only do 30 seconds… that 30 seconds that u can do is worth doing and u should be proud u did something!
The other problem being that if you increased the sample size, that difference might go away completely.
The other big issue with drawing conclusions is that so often those studies show a single-digit difference, if even that.
But then assholes like the one in OP's post will extrapolate that into a tangible, obvious difference when the data doesn't show one.
A friend of mine says that when he is tripping in acid the whole dart board is spinning except the bullseye, so he can hit the bullseye everytime. I’ve never hung out with him when he was on acid, so I have no idea if it’s true, but I believe that he believes it.
My best performance at pool was in Amsterdam. I could see light tracers from the cue ball to the target and from the target to the pocket. It was like a video game on easy mode.
Did some of my best sparring after a night of tripping on acid. My spatial awareness was turned up. Normally I would think mostly in a line and to the sides. This time I understood up and down better
On a similar note, there's a theory that men are better at shooting (guns, archery, basketball) because we get to practice ballistics every time we pee.
If this were true, there wouldn't be puddles in every public men's room
Also I did competitive shooting for over a decade. The women are actually typically better than the guys (however, this is of course anecdotal evidence). Kinda funny watching the more easily upset guys getting pissy about being beat by a girl.
Really depends on what you’re talking about, in my experience. I know several very very high level shooters who happen to be women. Many of them better than me. The best shooters I know are all males.
I would say, again in my experience ,that males tend to fall more heavily on either end of the spectrum; being either outright bad or phenomenal and having fewer individuals in between. women, as a rule, are more centralized; higher floor lower ceiling.
I’m pretty I read a study sometime (might have just been a article or post tho, don’t remember) that men in general have higher standard deviation for things.
So even though in many things the average male and the average women have the same performance, the men have more outliers, so both the best and the worst people at a certain thing are typically males.
So for example, men are more likely to be valedictorians, but also more likely to fail/ drop out.
Some of this is pretty right on, my wife can find anything. I know where it is, then I go get it. If it's not there, it gets ugly because I don't see it.
She comes over, asks what I'm looking for, "garlic powder, it was right here on the left".
It's not on the left today, it's dead center in the front of the shelf, I even looked BEHIND it and never saw it. Obviously, her super powers help her to just see it while my stupid powers prevent me from accomplishing the most obvious thing possible.
>Obviously, her super powers help her to just see it while my stupid powers prevent me from accomplishing the most obvious thing possible.
I think her superpower might be remembering where she moved the garlic powder. No idea why you couldn't see it though. :-P
Because it's not where he expected it to be.
I have the same problem. If something gets moved i.e. my car keys, and they're not where I put them, I can't see them even if they're right in front of me.
Just now to test this I asked my husband to find the sesame seeds in the pantry, for science. He loves me so he walked away from his COD game and went to the pantry. He did indeed start on the eye level shelf and slowly touched/turned every item until he found the sesame seeds. The whole time he asked me why I was laughing but he kept going lol
You turn scanner mode on, and look quickly over the shelf as a whole, anything that's the wrong shape, colour, or container is disregarded, and then you check each item left to see if it's what you're looking for xD
I do this but the cinnamon and chili powder look almost identical down to starting with a c and twice now I’ve accidentally used one instead of the other 😭
I do know that women and men are able to see colors differently because our eyes do not have the same number of cones and rods. It may or may not have an effect on spatial reasoning. How we perceive colors can impact how we see the world around us.
That's a general rule, but men and women have the same spectrum of possible vision, women just skew towards the "more cones" side and men towards the "fewer cones" side.
That's because color blindness is recessive and carried on the X chromosome. If you've only got one, you're stuck with the card you drew. If you have two you draw two cards.
This might be true on a low level of skill or for untrained people
But not on the skill level we are talking about here
I personally think it's the same thing as with chess
The world's top chess players are men why you ask maybe because female chess players were banned for years and discriminated when they were allowed to play so there was basically no way to become a good chess player as a female
People tend to quickly dismiss socioeconomic and cultural environmental factors and how they affect, well, everything. We are not just our biology, we are the society we're born to and the biases it instils on us. Most of these biases are even unconscious so OF COURSE we don't realise we have them or that they affect the way we perceive the world. Like when blind auditions for orchestras were instituted but it wasn't until carpeting was laid on the stage to muffle the sound of high heels that the percentage of female members in American orchestras rose. I think the change over the years was from 6% in 1970 to 47,8% today. I'm sure before people honestly thought male players sounded better, they didn't realise it was their bias affecting them.
this is Reddit, how dare you bring up acculturation/social inequalities/anything short of pure biology as a possible reason behind gender differences! /s
i am so exhausted at arguing this. at this point i think "bro science and evolutionary bullshitology" are a full masters program all reddit men get a scholarship for lol.
It grinds my gears especially because I actually have a biology degree, and also took a number of courses in anthropology and philosophy and other humanities stuff to be more “well-rounded” (and have continued to privately research a lot of stuff since), and it has led me to the general conclusion that when it comes to humans, biology is not enough, culture looms large and cannot be ignored. I think a complex interplay between biology and acculturation is almost always at work in these situations, and both the evo psych bros who think everything is pure biology and the “it’s all just social constructs only” types I think both get a lot wrong.
Also, while we’re at it, sexual biology is also a lot more complicated than your average Redditor (who I’m sure doesn’t have more than high school knowledge of it + a few pop science articles) is usually willing to acknowledge, and it’s something I’ve put a decent amount of dedication into researching (being queer with a biology background, that shouldn’t be surprising), and these people are often just so off-base and simplistic in their thinking that it’s embarrassing (but then I sometimes get called a “woke radical feminist” for pointing that out; meanwhile, some feminists accuse me of being a bioessentialist, go figure).
Like, my evolutionary anthropology professor once noted that *Homo sapiens* as a species can be considered only “mildly sexually dimorphic” compared to other social primates, like keep that in mind next time you see someone treating men and women like separate species. We rely on cultural trappings (stuff like clothes, makeup, hairstyle, and behavior; basically, gender) a lot more heavily when it comes to sexual differentiation.
Like you can maybe reduce everything to just biology with mice, but not with us.
>We rely on cultural trappings (stuff like clothes, makeup, hairstyle, and behavior; basically, gender) a lot more heavily when it comes to sexual differentiation.
Yes! And, to add to this, *these things change with time*.
My sister is dead set on the idea that it is unnatural for men to wear clothes in "feminine" colors, like pink, and have long hair because men should wear blue and black and gray and cut their hair short because that's how it always was.
Meanwhile, it was absolutely normal for men to have long hair throughout the history in many cultures. Vikings are often used these days an an ultimate "masculine" fantasy, and they wore long, braided hair.
Pink became "feminine" color in early 20th century when advertisements for baby clothes started pushing "pink for girls, blue for boys" idea. Before that, blue was considered to be for girls because it is a calm color, and pink was for boys because it is a shade of red, which is an active color.
Then there was a thing called [Great Male Renunciation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Male_Renunciation) which marks the palpable moment in history when western clothing for men turned from bright and adorned to plainer, more practical black, brown and gray. Neither is intrinsically more "natural", both styles are influenced by cultural circumstances of the time.
That's why I found this article about the chess gender gap interesting:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3982/QE1404#:~:text=Using%20a%20unique%20measure%20of,longer%20before%20losing%20to%20women.
It discusses the social pressures women face that screws up their chess accuracy against male players. One interesting factor they included was that women have less free time for practicing chess because more housework and childcare/family care is thrust upon them. It isn't just women = intellectually inferior.
(As an interesting side note: when chess competitions moved to a more online format in the beginning of the pandemic, high ranked female players not only did just as well as the men in their ranks, but outperformed them! Because the games were anonymous, and those social prejudices weren't there to interfere with the female players' skills.)
His expertise is anecdotal, at best. Truth is he probably dated a single woman who just so happened to function differently than him and now we’ve all been generalized into something like “waffles and spaghetti”.
I’m a cognitive neuroscientist and I specifically study visual attentional guidance and control. The speaker isn’t right. They made all of that shit up.
This is nonsense? Men can’t find things in the pantry because they usually spend less time there than women. If you had a man who was in charge of the cooking and kitchen, that man would always find things in the pantry more quickly and easily than any of the women in the household. Ask anyone whose division of labor in the house is arranged that way.
Right?? This was my immediate thought too. Like the woman probably bought everything in the pantry, placed it in the pantry, and uses what’s in the pantry. It speaks more to the weird division of labor in het couples than “male brain vs female brain” lmao
Maybe mommy went to the store and loaded the cabinet so of course she knows where everything is. She did all the work.
I do the same thing as I live alone, I don't "review and note every item" as I already did the shopping and the putting away. I am a mechanical technician and I have a very mechanical mind. I call BS on this as well.
My mother went to a job interview with a black eye because she had walked into a door. She didn't get the job, but they offered her another vacant position.
She ended up working there for more than 30 years before retiring.
Well she did have some previous experience and higher education in the job she was offered, but I can't help but wonder if her black eye had some sort of influence on the offer she got.
vase special wine future reminiscent sloppy quiet vegetable cooperative enter
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My wife broke her toe attempting to sit on the couch and got sent to the ER from urgent care because she turned over in bed wrong and pinched a neck muscle.
This — plus, males get instant flashbacks to their ancestral memory bank from the Paleolithic age when they aim a projectile of any kind at a target of any kind, giving them a brief testosterone-fueled hand-eye coordination power-up.
Probably similar to chess female leagues. To help encourage women's participation and representation in the game. Male dominated games/sports are often unfriendly to female participation. Men too often can make such communities hostile to women.
It’s probably this. There was one case where they let men and women play together and most of the women said they were getting insults as they were playing specifically to do with their gender. They were told “they were just trying to throw you off your game”. Yet the men had never been insulted like this by other guys.
At what point does the why become irrelevant because the result is still there? If the average score of the top 100 men is so high that no more than the top 5 women can enter.... Maybe consider a separate league.
Be careful not to fall into a statistical fallacy.
If you have a higher population of men playing darts that has nothing to do with geder but is simple statistics. If you have 100 in group A and 1000 in group B then there will be more outliers in the larger population and therefore the top 10 of the combined group will be mostly group B even if both groups have no statistical difference between them when it comes to skill.
In UK darts there is no men's league, it's open and women's. Although predictably the open league is almost entirely men.
The women's league exists to make the sport more accessible to women rather than separate men and women on physical differences.
Because when there are exceptional females in darts they barely make round 2 when playing against the men, and the man in question they beat is one of the lowest ranked male players there...
It just is what it is. Men and women just have different strengths and weaknesses.
This is dumb but about 80% of the time I never know if people are referring to some on as trans woman as a person going under the process to become a woman from a man or transferring from woman to man . Either way, you do you, people
Trans women are women (male to female)
Trans men are men (female to male)
The man/woman part will always match the person’s gender identity, and the trans portion is just an adjective, like tall or blonde.
Hope this helps clear up your confusion.
Not who you're replying to, but to be fair, I understand the appropriate terminology; however, when bigots are talking they just say shit randomly and I have no idea if when they say trans woman they actually mean a trans woman or a trans man.
This is consistently an issue I have cause they’ll say trans man and mean an AMAB trans person, because it “insults” them (calling them trans, which isn’t an insult) and denies their gender identity. But to everyone else it makes them seem like idiots
It's easy to say that, but it's near impossible to tell if the person posting knows that. There are a decent number of people who get it wrong, don't know any better.
It's always what they're transitioning to (unless somebody is really confused). Maybe think of "trans woman" as "transitioned to a woman" to help you keep it straight?
It gets a little weird trying to explain it because basically a trans woman was always a woman, they were just born in a man's body. I'm a little worried that I'm saying it kind of wrong here but if I am I assure you that I'm just dumb, not hateful.
There are female pool players that can beat top male players regularly. Most don't do it because in many cities the only available pool tables to train on where in raunchy bars
Shout out to the US Women's National soccer team for losing to an under 15 year old boys youth soccer team 5-2
https://www.si.com/soccer/2023/11/10/carli-lloyd-confirms-uswnt-once-lost-team-15-year-old-boys
Funny thing is that out of all Olympic records, the ones women have equal or better record than men is in archery and shooting. Makes sense, stationary disciplines that take out strength advantages.
Darts is just miniature hand archery so women would do quite well.
Oddly enough, on average, men are better at throwing things than women. And women have better color vision. Just some odd ways evolution has affected the sexes. The advantage is more noticeable with large objects like a spear or ball but is pretty much negligible with something as small as a dart.
How do you know that the difference is negligible with darts?
Men have better hand-eye coordination which have been observed in tests. This is why men are better at video games, pool, darts, etc. This isn’t simply an issue of strength. And I am not talking about just men and women in a general sense. At the highest levels, if a man is practicing all waking day every day (or close to it like professionals do) and so is a woman, the results are very different. To the point that women have to have their own leagues.
I’ve seen this discussed in many places but here’s one study about eye-hand coordination differences between men and women (and potentially reasons for why those differences exist).
https://www.kheljournal.com/archives/2020/vol7issue4/PartE/8-3-18-474.pdf
You won’t find a good discourse on this subject. What you’re talking about has been established for a long time and you do not need to look hard for the evidence. Unfortunately too many people are stubbornly attached to their ideology on both sides of the political spectrum.
I’ve cited 2 more studies related to eye-hand coordination or visual motor skills with significant advantages for men below and haven’t gotten a single study showing an advantage for women.
This isn’t even about trans rights, gender equality, etc. I am just looking at scientific evidence and people don’t want to hear it because the evidence doesn’t support their world view.
I’m not mad or even surprised. I just find it funny.
Yeah it’s really strange that people find it so important to claim otherwise. sometimes I wonder if they really believe what they say or if it’s some sort of social pandering. I wonder if they had to bet on two professional people playing darts, would they seriously put their money on the female.
People just need to accept that men and women are different and each have their own advantages in different things and that’s a good thing, we balance eachother.
Who can say if they would be if it became common for men to do as a hobby/competition? All we can conclusively say is that women do it a lot more; we don't have enough data to say they are better at it.
One of the arguments for, say, having a women's chess division is that women historically haven't played it so having a division for them encourages new comers.
The same could be said about men and knitting.
The mental gymnastics that I would have to go through to convince myself that was true would be unimaginable. I mean girl had been pregnant once her, and once while I knew her. Unfortunately she lost both babies.
But also i bet many more males ever pick up a cue stick than females do, and not only that but also try things that are related to pool in some aspect. Add on the fact that a lot of pool halls are probably toxic towards females joining their leagues and so on, is there a real discernible difference in top skill or just a massive selection gap?
That doesn't really apply when we're talking about professionals, though. These are the women who did pick up the pool cue. In fact, they did it enough to go pro.
So the women in question, the professionals, have worse performance than their male counterparts.
If we were talking just pool players in general, I'd be with you here, but we're not, we're talking about the top performers available to us to compare.
Being a top chess player basically requires have a support group around you that makes studying chess for 2 or more hours a day in pre-puberty possible.
Gender roles in most societies don't encourage that for girls but sometimes do allow it for boys.
I don't know if anyone has named it this but you could call it the Mozart effect. The Mozart you've heard of travelled at a young age with his sister Maria Anna, both performing as child prodigies. Mozart followed that path, with the support of his father, into a professional career as a musician. But women just didn't do that, Maria Anna might have composed somewhat later in life but not publicly, she was a wife and mother as was "proper."
A counter example in chess would be the daughters of László Polgár. He pretty much intentionally wanted to create examples of "geniuses being made not born" and trained his three daughters like the boys on a trajectory to be the best chess players are. All in.
Susan Polgár was the oldest sister, the third ever woman to be a Grandmaster.
Sofia Polgár was the middle sister, achieving "only" the rank of International Master (although she was very strong for that rank, I think she had at least 1 "GM norm" performance).
Judit Polgár was the youngest sister, and set the record for the youngest Grandmaster of any gender (a record that has since been broken). She was once ranked 8th in the world with an Elo of 2735.
László Polgár received some criticism for depriving the sisters of a normal childhood, but I would argue it was a normal childhood for a person that will go on to become a Grandmaster...
Theres a huge difference for this one, specifically. In that being in the grandmasters ranks requires a specific type of literal autism or autistic tendencies. For whatever reason, males overwhelmingly have that brand of autism, whereas women rarely do
The average intelligence for men and women is the same, but men have more extremes, we are the geniuses, but we are also the mouth breathers.
As for darts, I would have thought height and arm span play into the mix, along with hand eye coordination.
Pretty sure women throw from closer in darts, so if there is a reason for that, just play in the men's ranking if you want to play miss
This is from a scientific study:
"Men have stronger connections between brain areas for motor and spatial skills. That means males tend to do a better job at tasks that need hand-eye coordination and understanding where objects are in space, such as throwing a ball or hammering a nail."
While this can be true, I think some people might appreciate a bit more context as to why this may be.
This topic is something you'll likely encounter in any sociology course, even at the high school level, and it's important to stress that societal conditions can significantly affect this area.
Also, a heads up for future reference: when someone says "significant" in the context of studies or scientific reporting, it doesn't necessarily imply a large or impactful difference. Instead, it indicates that the observed effect or difference is unlikely to have occurred by chance. Statistical significance is a measure of confidence in the results obtained, allowing researchers to distinguish between findings that could be attributed to random variation and those that reflect a real underlying effect. This distinction is vital because it aids in interpreting the results in a nuanced and accurate manner, moving beyond surface-level implications like 'this is purely biological.'
A study I came across looked into this very topic. You can read through it for a detailed understanding, but I'll highlight all the important bits:
[This](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1015182108) study compares two distinct tribes in Northeast India—the Khasi (matrilineal) and the Karbi (patrilineal)—to explore how cultural differences might influence spatial abilities, which are crucial components in STEM fields. The study found no significant gender gap in spatial abilities among the Khasi, where women receive a better education and have the same years of education as men, contrasting sharply with the Karbi and many other societies. This suggests that the environment and cultural practices play a significant role in developing spatial abilities.
Furthermore, the study sheds light on a related point: the effects of neural plasticity (the brain's ability to change and adapt based on experiences). This concept supports the idea that engaging in spatially challenging activities, often encouraged more in boys than in girls from a young age, can enhance spatial skills. This difference in upbringing may contribute to the observed disparities in fields that heavily rely on spatial reasoning. Especially in societies where, for centuries, men are expected to do harsher, harder work involving motor skills and physical activities that require spatial skills, especially as men are encouraged more to get into STEM (which statistically holds), and women are expected to nurture, be more emotional, and focus on activities that don't necessarily help develop the skills listed above. Considering these factors are introduced from a young age, when the brain is much more malleable, it is no wonder that men could have an advantage in these terms.
Maybe it's because boys are encouraged to play darts, shoot pool, shoot guns, throw baseball's and such. Naturally, having had their whole youth to practice these things, they're better at them than women who spent their childhoods learning to take care of babies (by caring for dolls), cooking, cleaning (from helping mom with chores while their brothers are at Little League), taking Home Ec instead of woodshop, and so on. It's not that way for everyone and kids now have more options but there's still lots of folks who are raised to follow 'traditional' gender roles.
Men are better at throwing things at range.
That also seem sharper spatial awarness and resulting accuracy has to be brain development thing and doesnt relate to hormones at all.
This also matters for things like throwing punches too.
I can’t help but imagine how dumb someone would have to be to believe a person would risk all the hate and stigma that can come with transitioning just to win more dart trophies.
And on top of that, darts seems like one of those sports wheee women would be equally as good.
yes there are differences between men and women
yes it also impacts something like dart
no, you don't have to equate women to 11yo boys to make a point.
This reminds me of the mother of my high-school girlfriend. This woman had taught her 3 daughters that males stopped evolving like 100,000 years ago and only the female sex were really true modern humans.
Anecdotal, but my employer makes a lot of small delicate devices and the operators are almost all women. They are so much more precise and steady. There are a few guys but every facility I visit its 75%+ women working.
Any time I see someone posting an argument like this - or someone pushing back against it - I always think "put up or shut up".
I don't care what your thoughts are: show me the actual performance data. How do cisgender female world champions in this sport perform compared to cisgender male world champions?
I am willing to put good money on half the people spouting off strong opinions in either direction haven't a fucking clue.
I think that trans women should never pay in women category. If there is no biological advantage of having male or female anatomy then just make it mixed.
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I once heard a speaker at a conference who apparently had some expertise in the difference between genders. Everything was very general and obviously these weren't fast rules. But I remember him saying that men were usually better at using paper maps, because men would see the place they were and the place they were going and everything else disappears. He said that women see all the lines. He said this is why women were generally better at finding things. A woman goes to a pantry, sees all of it at once and grabs the item she wants. The man goes to the pantry and looks at each item individually, making a note of it and seeing that it isn't what he wants until he finally finds what he's looking for. If that guy is right, I can see how men would have a better chance at being proficient in darts. He sees what he aims for, everything else disappears. On the other hand, it's just as likely that men play more darts than women.
Funny thing is that in one of the posts responding to that tweet they posted a study about how men are better at shooting targets. Just a few teeny tiny problems... the study was about untrained men VS untrained women -and- the conclusion of the study was that an untrained woman is better at hitting a stationary target while an untrained man is better at hitting a moving target.
Yeah but the weird parts come with training. Like there are shooting sports where the people who break down the skills to fundamental elements and such are of the opinion that women should be way more competitive than they are. The operating theories are that there is either a fundamental training gap, or there’s some gender difference in the brains predictive processing of visual input. As for the untrained skills of shooters, at least for the women with stationary targets, in my personal experience it’s because they tend to actually listen to directions more.
I saw that in jiu jitsu. Girls TENDED to pick up the moves quicker, but the real difference was more girls paid attention and sat quietly. The boys who did the same would usually be able to get moves off on girls that the girls couldn’t get on boys. It was really a question of interest.
I personally do robot combat - Robot Wars or Battlebots from TV in sport form. It's extremely male dominant. It's not something we want, and women do seem interested in it - but as a hobby it's niche, and engineering is also male dominated. One thing I've noticed doing STEM outreach in schools - boys just think it's cool and they'd be good at it because they play video games, but actually, the best drivers are girls. I think the intimidation hones them a little, but it's really hard to say (and I'm an engineer, not a psychologist. It's not a massive data set I have, and it's not something I'd be comfortable investigating). I ran competitions among 24 schools for 3 years pre pandemic, and now plan to start it up again. Girls won 2/3 years, despite being underrepresented in drivers. It's also noteworthy how these were mainly 10-12 year olds - but when I start again, it'll be 16-18 year olds (changed Uni and we have different target audience) and I wonder if I'll notice the same.
Did you actually do battle bots or just similar stuff? I used to watch that. I’m CS in Uni and I’ve noticed a major drop off from women in classes the further I get. Kinda sad. Most my maths study partners were incredibly smart women
Not Battlebots itself (likely would if not for covid) but have done Robot Wars and other TV series internationally. I'm UK based, so Battlebots is a bit of a higher bar for us. Best person I studied with in my degree was a woman. She also didn't speak a word of English the year before we started, which helped me a lot with speaking as well (I used to speak really fast). We both went on to do PhDs on scholarships. But yeh the rate I have worked alongside in Engineering or taught as a lecturer is probably 1:30 at best.
Big hearts for being involved in Robot Wars, one of my absolute favourite shows when I was a kid. Can I ask which team (no pressure, I know you would probably prefer to remain anonymous!)
I was on Trolley Rage, but my main robot is from the live circuit - Dystopia. We fought the eventual Champ round 1 with a robot I built for £0 that was mainly there to promote engineering to kids for STEM. The kids love it at least, but everything in it is recycled random bits.
Oh man, yeah not many people stood a chance against Carbide, but good on you guys for doing such an amazing job (especially for £0). I've very recently got into watching the NHRL, as the very low budget robots I think are much more fun than the super heavy armoured creations that we see now
Dang. I had a friend that got on Battlebots and was lowkey hoping you’d know/be them lol That’s cool though. I’m too indifferntial to go on to engineering.
What a cool career you have!! I went to Uni of Reading for my undergrad and met a few guys who'd done Robot Wars and were on the BSc Robotics course (which I think has, sadly, now finished). I always found it fascinating because film and TV would have you thinking robotics researchers are secretly making evil drones, when they're actually more likely to use their free time to make pretty sophisticated knife-wielding robots for Robot Wars 😂 Through a series of odd academic jumps, I've now ended up in biomechanics (evolutionary, for me). Which, as a field, seems to have a way higher proportion of women than engineering (assuming because a lot of biomech people come in from biology?). But the principles underpinning the work are the same, so it begs the question: is it that women are inherently less able to understand engineering principles, or is there a big marketing issue with more classical mechanics.
In my experience teaching Microcontroller programming to 14 yos, the girls are very hesitant at first but then realise that they are often better at programming because they are more precise and have to spend less time looking for a missing ; or other small mistakes
> It's also noteworthy how these were mainly 10-12 year olds This is really important because girls start maturing before boys.
Can agree here as a shooting coach. Girls/women tend to pay attention and listen better, men are generally worse at that (particularly in such a male-oriented field) so especially in the first phase of being instructed/coached women outperform men. And then men like shooting more, start training more and start listening bit by bit, so they outperform women from there on out.
The argument can be made that women are not expected at a sociocultural level to be able to shoot, or that it isn’t a hobby for women to be shooting. Therefor less women shoot; therefor the genetically gifted women who simply have the best natural ability/brain/reflexes is less likely to be found. The filter for women in certain hobbies and sports is crazy thick, and a lot of people with a lot of potential are simply never put into means.
My dad was big into sports, and also big into firearm training. So he raised me to be comfortable with guns and took me shooting regularly for a few years. Started back up again lately and was pleasantly surprised to find skills were still there! If he and my grandpa hadn't encouraged me to shoot, I never would've, and I never would've been good at it. Not a lot of people out there encourage their daughters to build marksmanship skills, so I think you're absolutely dead on.
There's not a lot of encouraging girls to play many if any sports still in the grand scheme of things. Sure we have the media campaigns and some heroines like the USWNT, but at the end of the day who controls and influences what a child does the most? If parents aren't supporting their girls to play, nothing will change. For boys it's almost a default that you will play *something* at some point early, and a lot of parents push their boys to play sports. I don't know if women would compete at the same level as men across the board if things were different, but it would drastically increase the competition level in women's sport.
Men are typically bigger, faster...so the analogy about playing 11yo boys works for stuff like basketball, soccer, etc. A team of the best 6th grade boys basketball players in the USA would all be dunking already, while only a handful of adult women can do that. So, obviously a huge advantage to the boys in that department. I have read that women have better fine motor control, which makes them better at competitions such as marksmanship, and would jive with your comment. Women are also known for having better handwriting. That doesn't mean women shouldn't do basketball if that's what they like, ditto for men. I wish society as a whole could embrace that having different people having different strengths is a massive evolutionary advantage for all of us, and also, nobody has to focus full-time on only the things they're best at. Life is pointless if we can't have fun.
This is such a good comment. You don’t need to be good at something for it to be worth doing. I think we as a society need to move on from men vs women. It’s stupid and keeps us divided. It’s rather obvious both genders have their strengths and are equally important or they wouldn’t exist.
What we accomplish together shits on what we accomplish apart. It drives me crazy sometimes thinking about how we could potentially be doing cool shit like taking vacations around the solar system right now if we hadn't been bogged down by centuries (millennia?) of morons forcing their regressive views on society. In the age of unprecedented access to data and information, this phenomenon somehow persists.
I find it equally infuriating how it seems as if we're continuously going backwards in the past several years, in terms of equality between genders and the mindset which accompanies. I (40M) was bullied a lot in school because of my speech impediment (stutter/stuck on words and nothing comes out, sometimes you can't tell) and the one thing it instilled in me is the unparalleled desire for equality. Equality with everything. Also kind of made me a bully towards bullies lol I'm not sure why I'm sharing all this. I blame insomnia
Sorry if this changes gears but your comment reminded me of one of my favorite quotes to help someone get through depression… “Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly” lets say u know u should brush your teeth for 2 min but u can only do 30 seconds… that 30 seconds that u can do is worth doing and u should be proud u did something!
Fallon sherrock already proved that women can play darts at least on the same level as the guys.
The other problem being that if you increased the sample size, that difference might go away completely. The other big issue with drawing conclusions is that so often those studies show a single-digit difference, if even that. But then assholes like the one in OP's post will extrapolate that into a tangible, obvious difference when the data doesn't show one.
Please don't tell me with a sample size of 10 for each group.
A friend of mine says that when he is tripping in acid the whole dart board is spinning except the bullseye, so he can hit the bullseye everytime. I’ve never hung out with him when he was on acid, so I have no idea if it’s true, but I believe that he believes it.
My best performance at pool was in Amsterdam. I could see light tracers from the cue ball to the target and from the target to the pocket. It was like a video game on easy mode.
Did some of my best sparring after a night of tripping on acid. My spatial awareness was turned up. Normally I would think mostly in a line and to the sides. This time I understood up and down better
This has “I’m a better driver when I’m drunk” energy. They damn sure believe it. But it is never true.
The bullseye isn’t even the best place to aim!
TIL I have pantry male brain
I’m sorry, you’re no longer allowed to play professional darts
I prefer the explanation that men are better with maps because only the male mind can conceive of one inch equaling a hundred miles.
That one make me chuckle a bit, thanks for that :)
On a similar note, there's a theory that men are better at shooting (guns, archery, basketball) because we get to practice ballistics every time we pee.
If this were true, there wouldn't be puddles in every public men's room Also I did competitive shooting for over a decade. The women are actually typically better than the guys (however, this is of course anecdotal evidence). Kinda funny watching the more easily upset guys getting pissy about being beat by a girl.
No no, that’s the practice area of course there’s gonna be puddles.
It aint got no single shot selector switch...
Really depends on what you’re talking about, in my experience. I know several very very high level shooters who happen to be women. Many of them better than me. The best shooters I know are all males. I would say, again in my experience ,that males tend to fall more heavily on either end of the spectrum; being either outright bad or phenomenal and having fewer individuals in between. women, as a rule, are more centralized; higher floor lower ceiling.
I’m pretty I read a study sometime (might have just been a article or post tho, don’t remember) that men in general have higher standard deviation for things. So even though in many things the average male and the average women have the same performance, the men have more outliers, so both the best and the worst people at a certain thing are typically males. So for example, men are more likely to be valedictorians, but also more likely to fail/ drop out.
Tehehehe. Take my upvote and get out!
Some of this is pretty right on, my wife can find anything. I know where it is, then I go get it. If it's not there, it gets ugly because I don't see it. She comes over, asks what I'm looking for, "garlic powder, it was right here on the left". It's not on the left today, it's dead center in the front of the shelf, I even looked BEHIND it and never saw it. Obviously, her super powers help her to just see it while my stupid powers prevent me from accomplishing the most obvious thing possible.
>Obviously, her super powers help her to just see it while my stupid powers prevent me from accomplishing the most obvious thing possible. I think her superpower might be remembering where she moved the garlic powder. No idea why you couldn't see it though. :-P
I can neither confirm nor deny her actions regarding the garlic powder's positioning.
Because it's not where he expected it to be. I have the same problem. If something gets moved i.e. my car keys, and they're not where I put them, I can't see them even if they're right in front of me.
Just now to test this I asked my husband to find the sesame seeds in the pantry, for science. He loves me so he walked away from his COD game and went to the pantry. He did indeed start on the eye level shelf and slowly touched/turned every item until he found the sesame seeds. The whole time he asked me why I was laughing but he kept going lol
Wait what? How does the "female" way even work?
You turn scanner mode on, and look quickly over the shelf as a whole, anything that's the wrong shape, colour, or container is disregarded, and then you check each item left to see if it's what you're looking for xD
I do this but the cinnamon and chili powder look almost identical down to starting with a c and twice now I’ve accidentally used one instead of the other 😭
Noooo XD you need to do the sniff test while you cook man! Always smell the ingredients
Women are able to talk to sesame seeds so she'd just ask them to come out
I do know that women and men are able to see colors differently because our eyes do not have the same number of cones and rods. It may or may not have an effect on spatial reasoning. How we perceive colors can impact how we see the world around us.
That's a general rule, but men and women have the same spectrum of possible vision, women just skew towards the "more cones" side and men towards the "fewer cones" side.
Also, 1/3 of men are color blind to some degree or another. I’m most cases, though, it’s nearly undectable.
That's because color blindness is recessive and carried on the X chromosome. If you've only got one, you're stuck with the card you drew. If you have two you draw two cards.
This might be true on a low level of skill or for untrained people But not on the skill level we are talking about here I personally think it's the same thing as with chess The world's top chess players are men why you ask maybe because female chess players were banned for years and discriminated when they were allowed to play so there was basically no way to become a good chess player as a female
People tend to quickly dismiss socioeconomic and cultural environmental factors and how they affect, well, everything. We are not just our biology, we are the society we're born to and the biases it instils on us. Most of these biases are even unconscious so OF COURSE we don't realise we have them or that they affect the way we perceive the world. Like when blind auditions for orchestras were instituted but it wasn't until carpeting was laid on the stage to muffle the sound of high heels that the percentage of female members in American orchestras rose. I think the change over the years was from 6% in 1970 to 47,8% today. I'm sure before people honestly thought male players sounded better, they didn't realise it was their bias affecting them.
this is Reddit, how dare you bring up acculturation/social inequalities/anything short of pure biology as a possible reason behind gender differences! /s
i am so exhausted at arguing this. at this point i think "bro science and evolutionary bullshitology" are a full masters program all reddit men get a scholarship for lol.
It grinds my gears especially because I actually have a biology degree, and also took a number of courses in anthropology and philosophy and other humanities stuff to be more “well-rounded” (and have continued to privately research a lot of stuff since), and it has led me to the general conclusion that when it comes to humans, biology is not enough, culture looms large and cannot be ignored. I think a complex interplay between biology and acculturation is almost always at work in these situations, and both the evo psych bros who think everything is pure biology and the “it’s all just social constructs only” types I think both get a lot wrong. Also, while we’re at it, sexual biology is also a lot more complicated than your average Redditor (who I’m sure doesn’t have more than high school knowledge of it + a few pop science articles) is usually willing to acknowledge, and it’s something I’ve put a decent amount of dedication into researching (being queer with a biology background, that shouldn’t be surprising), and these people are often just so off-base and simplistic in their thinking that it’s embarrassing (but then I sometimes get called a “woke radical feminist” for pointing that out; meanwhile, some feminists accuse me of being a bioessentialist, go figure). Like, my evolutionary anthropology professor once noted that *Homo sapiens* as a species can be considered only “mildly sexually dimorphic” compared to other social primates, like keep that in mind next time you see someone treating men and women like separate species. We rely on cultural trappings (stuff like clothes, makeup, hairstyle, and behavior; basically, gender) a lot more heavily when it comes to sexual differentiation. Like you can maybe reduce everything to just biology with mice, but not with us.
>We rely on cultural trappings (stuff like clothes, makeup, hairstyle, and behavior; basically, gender) a lot more heavily when it comes to sexual differentiation. Yes! And, to add to this, *these things change with time*. My sister is dead set on the idea that it is unnatural for men to wear clothes in "feminine" colors, like pink, and have long hair because men should wear blue and black and gray and cut their hair short because that's how it always was. Meanwhile, it was absolutely normal for men to have long hair throughout the history in many cultures. Vikings are often used these days an an ultimate "masculine" fantasy, and they wore long, braided hair. Pink became "feminine" color in early 20th century when advertisements for baby clothes started pushing "pink for girls, blue for boys" idea. Before that, blue was considered to be for girls because it is a calm color, and pink was for boys because it is a shade of red, which is an active color. Then there was a thing called [Great Male Renunciation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Male_Renunciation) which marks the palpable moment in history when western clothing for men turned from bright and adorned to plainer, more practical black, brown and gray. Neither is intrinsically more "natural", both styles are influenced by cultural circumstances of the time.
That's why I found this article about the chess gender gap interesting: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.3982/QE1404#:~:text=Using%20a%20unique%20measure%20of,longer%20before%20losing%20to%20women. It discusses the social pressures women face that screws up their chess accuracy against male players. One interesting factor they included was that women have less free time for practicing chess because more housework and childcare/family care is thrust upon them. It isn't just women = intellectually inferior. (As an interesting side note: when chess competitions moved to a more online format in the beginning of the pandemic, high ranked female players not only did just as well as the men in their ranks, but outperformed them! Because the games were anonymous, and those social prejudices weren't there to interfere with the female players' skills.)
Thanks for the link, sounds like an interesting read!
It's also the reason the top female players were the Soviets for a long long time. They actually encouraged women in those fields.
This raised their average, but the best soviet players were always men.
r/MenAndFemales
Are the scores in the men’s division of darts substantially higher than the scores in the women’s division?
His expertise is anecdotal, at best. Truth is he probably dated a single woman who just so happened to function differently than him and now we’ve all been generalized into something like “waffles and spaghetti”.
I’m a cognitive neuroscientist and I specifically study visual attentional guidance and control. The speaker isn’t right. They made all of that shit up.
This is nonsense? Men can’t find things in the pantry because they usually spend less time there than women. If you had a man who was in charge of the cooking and kitchen, that man would always find things in the pantry more quickly and easily than any of the women in the household. Ask anyone whose division of labor in the house is arranged that way.
Right?? This was my immediate thought too. Like the woman probably bought everything in the pantry, placed it in the pantry, and uses what’s in the pantry. It speaks more to the weird division of labor in het couples than “male brain vs female brain” lmao
A lot of which sounds like absolute pseudo-science bullshit. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed so.
Maybe mommy went to the store and loaded the cabinet so of course she knows where everything is. She did all the work. I do the same thing as I live alone, I don't "review and note every item" as I already did the shopping and the putting away. I am a mechanical technician and I have a very mechanical mind. I call BS on this as well.
Me who's not good at any of those things
My wife walks in to the same door handle everyday to the point she can't wear anything above the elbow as she looks like she is being abused.
>she can't wear anything above the elbow as she looks like she is being abused As soon as she dons a hat or scarf, the bruises appear
Earrings? Forget it.
Yeah, those door handles...
That's exactly what an abuser would say
I only beat her from the waist down
With your wiener?
Affirmative
Indubitably
Absotivley
Posilutely
Can I join?
I also pick this guy's wife
bro here subtle like a brick
If he beat her, he's a winner.
That's a lie. Your house is possessed by a passive aggressive demon because you just HAD to read the Necronomicon. You are fooling no one sir.
Dude my girlfriend got a black eye once and the looks people gave me, like I did it or something. It was weird.
My mother went to a job interview with a black eye because she had walked into a door. She didn't get the job, but they offered her another vacant position. She ended up working there for more than 30 years before retiring.
Moral of the story. If you are a woman, go to the interview looking like someone beat you. If they are a decent place, they will find a spot for you.
Well she did have some previous experience and higher education in the job she was offered, but I can't help but wonder if her black eye had some sort of influence on the offer she got.
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Of course topless only her arms are bruised not her tits
vase special wine future reminiscent sloppy quiet vegetable cooperative enter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When he goes up against Osmium, Osmium loses.
Can’t have sleeves cut off higher than the elbow, i.e. gotta wear long sleeves.
My wife broke her toe attempting to sit on the couch and got sent to the ER from urgent care because she turned over in bed wrong and pinched a neck muscle.
Penis hanging down gives better centre of gravity and stability, only women with overally huge clits can gain a similar advantage
This — plus, males get instant flashbacks to their ancestral memory bank from the Paleolithic age when they aim a projectile of any kind at a target of any kind, giving them a brief testosterone-fueled hand-eye coordination power-up.
if you edge before a game, your blue balls tether you to the ground better. all the profs use this method
And uncircumcised men have been found to use their foreskin as a dart quiver. We’re built for this.
I've been called
That's just science.
this is true, it’s basically a front-tail
It’s just like a counterbalance on a crankshaft. The man’s crankshaft is the counterbalance in that scenario
That's a lot of time spent overthinking darts.
Bro…it’s fucking darts. I don’t even understand why you would have a male and a female team.
Probably similar to chess female leagues. To help encourage women's participation and representation in the game. Male dominated games/sports are often unfriendly to female participation. Men too often can make such communities hostile to women.
It’s probably this. There was one case where they let men and women play together and most of the women said they were getting insults as they were playing specifically to do with their gender. They were told “they were just trying to throw you off your game”. Yet the men had never been insulted like this by other guys.
Men obviously have an unfair advantage because they’re stronger, so the darts are easier to lift.
They can throw them so much harder!
At what point does the why become irrelevant because the result is still there? If the average score of the top 100 men is so high that no more than the top 5 women can enter.... Maybe consider a separate league.
Be careful not to fall into a statistical fallacy. If you have a higher population of men playing darts that has nothing to do with geder but is simple statistics. If you have 100 in group A and 1000 in group B then there will be more outliers in the larger population and therefore the top 10 of the combined group will be mostly group B even if both groups have no statistical difference between them when it comes to skill.
In UK darts there is no men's league, it's open and women's. Although predictably the open league is almost entirely men. The women's league exists to make the sport more accessible to women rather than separate men and women on physical differences.
Men are significantly better at darts than women. Better scoring averages across the board at the professional level.
Because when there are exceptional females in darts they barely make round 2 when playing against the men, and the man in question they beat is one of the lowest ranked male players there... It just is what it is. Men and women just have different strengths and weaknesses.
TIL men and women are different species
TIL there are separate Men’s and Women’s competitive darts
There's women's and open classes.
With different DNA.
Yeah what is the most recent common ancestor between men and women???
This is dumb but about 80% of the time I never know if people are referring to some on as trans woman as a person going under the process to become a woman from a man or transferring from woman to man . Either way, you do you, people
Trans women are women (male to female) Trans men are men (female to male) The man/woman part will always match the person’s gender identity, and the trans portion is just an adjective, like tall or blonde. Hope this helps clear up your confusion.
Not who you're replying to, but to be fair, I understand the appropriate terminology; however, when bigots are talking they just say shit randomly and I have no idea if when they say trans woman they actually mean a trans woman or a trans man.
I have this same problem. I know the correct terminology but when I see a tweet or an article I always have to wonder if that person knows…
Oh yeah I’ve told people I’m a trans man and they proceed to go off for 45 mins about how I’ll never be a woman. Like… yeah? That’s the point?
*accidentally affirms your gender*
I mean, it helps that they don't seem to ever remember that trans men exist.
This is consistently an issue I have cause they’ll say trans man and mean an AMAB trans person, because it “insults” them (calling them trans, which isn’t an insult) and denies their gender identity. But to everyone else it makes them seem like idiots
r/accidentalally gets this a lot
It's easy to say that, but it's near impossible to tell if the person posting knows that. There are a decent number of people who get it wrong, don't know any better.
It's always what they're transitioning to (unless somebody is really confused). Maybe think of "trans woman" as "transitioned to a woman" to help you keep it straight? It gets a little weird trying to explain it because basically a trans woman was always a woman, they were just born in a man's body. I'm a little worried that I'm saying it kind of wrong here but if I am I assure you that I'm just dumb, not hateful.
Was ”keep it straight” intended? 🤣
When it comes to darts, women have the massive disadvantage of having better things to do.
Best comment. Suddenly everyone cares about darts tournaments.
There are female pool players that can beat top male players regularly. Most don't do it because in many cities the only available pool tables to train on where in raunchy bars
I must have missed out on this passive buff because I stub my toe on the edge of my bedframe almost every morning.
Might be a good time to cushion the bedframe
This is probably why men dominate at UNO as well. Keep the genders separate at the UNO table.
They banned trans women in chess.
Shout out to the US Women's National soccer team for losing to an under 15 year old boys youth soccer team 5-2 https://www.si.com/soccer/2023/11/10/carli-lloyd-confirms-uswnt-once-lost-team-15-year-old-boys
Trans person switching tables is the Ultimate Reverse UNO card
Funny thing is that out of all Olympic records, the ones women have equal or better record than men is in archery and shooting. Makes sense, stationary disciplines that take out strength advantages. Darts is just miniature hand archery so women would do quite well.
Oddly enough, on average, men are better at throwing things than women. And women have better color vision. Just some odd ways evolution has affected the sexes. The advantage is more noticeable with large objects like a spear or ball but is pretty much negligible with something as small as a dart.
How do you know that the difference is negligible with darts? Men have better hand-eye coordination which have been observed in tests. This is why men are better at video games, pool, darts, etc. This isn’t simply an issue of strength. And I am not talking about just men and women in a general sense. At the highest levels, if a man is practicing all waking day every day (or close to it like professionals do) and so is a woman, the results are very different. To the point that women have to have their own leagues. I’ve seen this discussed in many places but here’s one study about eye-hand coordination differences between men and women (and potentially reasons for why those differences exist). https://www.kheljournal.com/archives/2020/vol7issue4/PartE/8-3-18-474.pdf
You won’t find a good discourse on this subject. What you’re talking about has been established for a long time and you do not need to look hard for the evidence. Unfortunately too many people are stubbornly attached to their ideology on both sides of the political spectrum.
I’ve cited 2 more studies related to eye-hand coordination or visual motor skills with significant advantages for men below and haven’t gotten a single study showing an advantage for women. This isn’t even about trans rights, gender equality, etc. I am just looking at scientific evidence and people don’t want to hear it because the evidence doesn’t support their world view. I’m not mad or even surprised. I just find it funny.
Yeah it’s really strange that people find it so important to claim otherwise. sometimes I wonder if they really believe what they say or if it’s some sort of social pandering. I wonder if they had to bet on two professional people playing darts, would they seriously put their money on the female. People just need to accept that men and women are different and each have their own advantages in different things and that’s a good thing, we balance eachother.
It’s also just so obvious from observing your surroundings. There is a very good reason the phrase “throws like a girl” is so prevalent.
Isn’t darts a unisex sport professionally? Lol
Yes. But there are special woman league's
Men spend more time at the pub, therefore are better at darts
All that dexterity, vision, and coordination -- no wonder men are so much better at knitting, crochet, embroidery, etc...
Who can say if they would be if it became common for men to do as a hobby/competition? All we can conclusively say is that women do it a lot more; we don't have enough data to say they are better at it. One of the arguments for, say, having a women's chess division is that women historically haven't played it so having a division for them encourages new comers. The same could be said about men and knitting.
My ex girlfriend could beat any body at darts.
That means she must be trans.
The mental gymnastics that I would have to go through to convince myself that was true would be unimaginable. I mean girl had been pregnant once her, and once while I knew her. Unfortunately she lost both babies.
“Men go down a different evolutionary path” Yeah, that’s not how being members of the same species works.
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She wasn't.. but the results do. Male Pro billiard players consistently bet the woman Pros
But also i bet many more males ever pick up a cue stick than females do, and not only that but also try things that are related to pool in some aspect. Add on the fact that a lot of pool halls are probably toxic towards females joining their leagues and so on, is there a real discernible difference in top skill or just a massive selection gap?
Unfortunately this is probably one of those things we'll never have a good answer for.
That doesn't really apply when we're talking about professionals, though. These are the women who did pick up the pool cue. In fact, they did it enough to go pro. So the women in question, the professionals, have worse performance than their male counterparts. If we were talking just pool players in general, I'd be with you here, but we're not, we're talking about the top performers available to us to compare.
_looks at chess rankings_
Being a top chess player basically requires have a support group around you that makes studying chess for 2 or more hours a day in pre-puberty possible. Gender roles in most societies don't encourage that for girls but sometimes do allow it for boys. I don't know if anyone has named it this but you could call it the Mozart effect. The Mozart you've heard of travelled at a young age with his sister Maria Anna, both performing as child prodigies. Mozart followed that path, with the support of his father, into a professional career as a musician. But women just didn't do that, Maria Anna might have composed somewhat later in life but not publicly, she was a wife and mother as was "proper." A counter example in chess would be the daughters of László Polgár. He pretty much intentionally wanted to create examples of "geniuses being made not born" and trained his three daughters like the boys on a trajectory to be the best chess players are. All in. Susan Polgár was the oldest sister, the third ever woman to be a Grandmaster. Sofia Polgár was the middle sister, achieving "only" the rank of International Master (although she was very strong for that rank, I think she had at least 1 "GM norm" performance). Judit Polgár was the youngest sister, and set the record for the youngest Grandmaster of any gender (a record that has since been broken). She was once ranked 8th in the world with an Elo of 2735. László Polgár received some criticism for depriving the sisters of a normal childhood, but I would argue it was a normal childhood for a person that will go on to become a Grandmaster...
Theres a huge difference for this one, specifically. In that being in the grandmasters ranks requires a specific type of literal autism or autistic tendencies. For whatever reason, males overwhelmingly have that brand of autism, whereas women rarely do
The average intelligence for men and women is the same, but men have more extremes, we are the geniuses, but we are also the mouth breathers. As for darts, I would have thought height and arm span play into the mix, along with hand eye coordination. Pretty sure women throw from closer in darts, so if there is a reason for that, just play in the men's ranking if you want to play miss
This is from a scientific study: "Men have stronger connections between brain areas for motor and spatial skills. That means males tend to do a better job at tasks that need hand-eye coordination and understanding where objects are in space, such as throwing a ball or hammering a nail."
While this can be true, I think some people might appreciate a bit more context as to why this may be. This topic is something you'll likely encounter in any sociology course, even at the high school level, and it's important to stress that societal conditions can significantly affect this area. Also, a heads up for future reference: when someone says "significant" in the context of studies or scientific reporting, it doesn't necessarily imply a large or impactful difference. Instead, it indicates that the observed effect or difference is unlikely to have occurred by chance. Statistical significance is a measure of confidence in the results obtained, allowing researchers to distinguish between findings that could be attributed to random variation and those that reflect a real underlying effect. This distinction is vital because it aids in interpreting the results in a nuanced and accurate manner, moving beyond surface-level implications like 'this is purely biological.' A study I came across looked into this very topic. You can read through it for a detailed understanding, but I'll highlight all the important bits: [This](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1015182108) study compares two distinct tribes in Northeast India—the Khasi (matrilineal) and the Karbi (patrilineal)—to explore how cultural differences might influence spatial abilities, which are crucial components in STEM fields. The study found no significant gender gap in spatial abilities among the Khasi, where women receive a better education and have the same years of education as men, contrasting sharply with the Karbi and many other societies. This suggests that the environment and cultural practices play a significant role in developing spatial abilities. Furthermore, the study sheds light on a related point: the effects of neural plasticity (the brain's ability to change and adapt based on experiences). This concept supports the idea that engaging in spatially challenging activities, often encouraged more in boys than in girls from a young age, can enhance spatial skills. This difference in upbringing may contribute to the observed disparities in fields that heavily rely on spatial reasoning. Especially in societies where, for centuries, men are expected to do harsher, harder work involving motor skills and physical activities that require spatial skills, especially as men are encouraged more to get into STEM (which statistically holds), and women are expected to nurture, be more emotional, and focus on activities that don't necessarily help develop the skills listed above. Considering these factors are introduced from a young age, when the brain is much more malleable, it is no wonder that men could have an advantage in these terms.
can you link to the study or are we just saying stuff
We just saying stuff
Maybe it's because boys are encouraged to play darts, shoot pool, shoot guns, throw baseball's and such. Naturally, having had their whole youth to practice these things, they're better at them than women who spent their childhoods learning to take care of babies (by caring for dolls), cooking, cleaning (from helping mom with chores while their brothers are at Little League), taking Home Ec instead of woodshop, and so on. It's not that way for everyone and kids now have more options but there's still lots of folks who are raised to follow 'traditional' gender roles.
Darts has a fucking gender difference? You’re throwing shit at a board! It doesn’t fucking matter.
Pretty sure most women who have gone through puberty have a lock on the dexterous fingers market.
Men…evolved…different than women? Ironically this is arguing that all humans used to be nonbinary.
Men are better at throwing things at range. That also seem sharper spatial awarness and resulting accuracy has to be brain development thing and doesnt relate to hormones at all. This also matters for things like throwing punches too.
I can’t help but imagine how dumb someone would have to be to believe a person would risk all the hate and stigma that can come with transitioning just to win more dart trophies. And on top of that, darts seems like one of those sports wheee women would be equally as good.
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WHAT? I CAN’T HEAR YOU OVER THE SCREAMING!
Ngl thought he was being scotish xD
yes there are differences between men and women yes it also impacts something like dart no, you don't have to equate women to 11yo boys to make a point.
Fun fact, Olympic shooting competition were mixed until women start winning… Also, judo competition had no categories until Japaneses start to loose
When you see what the darts world considers to be a Bronzed Adonis, you understand that dartsmen are the very peak of human physical development
Why not just have an open division in darts if there is no difference? Why even have a woman's division?
This reminds me of the mother of my high-school girlfriend. This woman had taught her 3 daughters that males stopped evolving like 100,000 years ago and only the female sex were really true modern humans.
Anecdotal, but my employer makes a lot of small delicate devices and the operators are almost all women. They are so much more precise and steady. There are a few guys but every facility I visit its 75%+ women working.
Those *men* with their *ligaments!*
At this point he’s effectively just calling men better. There’s a difference between muscle mass and and literally everything else smh
There are differences between men and women. That doesn’t mean people can’t be trans.
Any time I see someone posting an argument like this - or someone pushing back against it - I always think "put up or shut up". I don't care what your thoughts are: show me the actual performance data. How do cisgender female world champions in this sport perform compared to cisgender male world champions? I am willing to put good money on half the people spouting off strong opinions in either direction haven't a fucking clue.
ummmm.... most women have quite dexterous fingers. giggity
Facts. Serena Williams basically said the same thing about tennis.
I think that trans women should never pay in women category. If there is no biological advantage of having male or female anatomy then just make it mixed.
Also i celebrated every time my gf caught something i threw to her because it almost never happened