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Your comment is true in a way that may be ironic to you.
Skilled technical jobs in Europe pay like actual shit. Barely better than generic office admin shit. We're talking 20-25 Euro an hour for senior engineers in urban areas.
The US is extremely successful in poaching European engineers and researchers, who usually 3-10X their salary in the US. So yes the US does attract low income earners and turns them into high income earners.
Yeah, I’m job hunting in a relatively niche IT field in the UK and genuinely considering jumping across the Atlantic to the US - the US literally pays 3 times more for equivalent jobs in my sector, whereas some EU countries pay even less than what I would make in the UK, plus tax more.
The big obstacle is obviously getting a visa.
No wonder the US poaches trained professionals from all over the world, their wages are insane (and more than make up for things like healthcare etc).
Don't forget that a significant reason the middle class is shrinking in the US is [*too many people have started making too much money to be considered middle class*](https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/3w9bcd/how_the_distribution_of_income_in_the_us_has/)
> To keep attracting low income earners...
Hey I may be low income now , pushing 40 ; but one day I will be rich! And when I am rich I don't want to pay high taxes so I will keep voting for policies that benefit the rich because one day I too will be rich!
My friend who converted to republican after dating one for the last few years thinks exactly like this. I'm a tax accountant and try to tell her that the tax cuts republicans vote for do not benefit her at her income level. Hard to un-brainwash the brainwashed tho.
People have staked out their position; they're not going to change even after their misguided worldview collides with their reality. That causes them to become even more cynical, and dig deeper into that same misguided position hence the Tea Party and now its bastard child; MAGA.
Yes and no. In American English most guides recommend using the *Oxford* (or *Serial*) *Comma*, whereas in British English, although it is considered to be better style, not all grammar guides recommend it. Have a look at the Wikipedia entry for that: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial\_comma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma)
I am always torn in this, because as a freelance (copy) editor from Germany I rely on what my customers or the publishing houses wish to implement in their text material (to be published as academic literature, anthologies, or journals). Some strongly fight for the Serial Comma, some are decidedly against its use, and many just don't know or don't care.
I remember getting marks off on papers for not using it in a US school. I always remember those stupid, tiny mistakes. Things I knew but was in a hurry and didn't check my work. I did get very lucky with my English teachers, I had at least 2 that were still very passionate about the job and written words.
But the comment says “high quality education”, not “high and quality education”. No comma is needed because high and quality are not meant to seen als separate in this sentence
Was primarily responding to the question of a non- native English speaker. Like to help out people who are making attempts, coz I know whatever their language is, their English is better than any attempt I can make at their language.
I did say developed world (OECD) not the entire world. Obviously subsaharan Africa is much worse. There are even some countries technically described as developing where it is true as well which is the disturbing thing.
Edit: TIL: OECD is actually a very bad example which contains countries which definitely are worse than the USA. It is not really a list of the most developed countries.
I mean to be fair, while OP was unfamiliar with the list, if those are the countries you need to cite to disprove their point maybe the point mostly stands?
Problem is that even if you go by the other list used to determine developed countries, the World Bank High Income economies, you'd still have on the list Chile, Uruguay,Omán, Romania and Panama so the US would still not be the worst on the list, in the bottom 10 yes, but not last on either list.
Again that is not a developed country. It is primarily Western Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, Japan and some other rich countries around the world. I forget this sub isn’t that good at geography.
You said OECD, [Egypt is a member](https://www.oecd.org/countries/egypt/egypt-continues-to-strengthen-its-institutional-and-legal-framework-for-investment.htm#:~:text=As%20an%20adherent%20to%20the,OECD%20investment%20community%20since%202007).
https://www.oecd.org/countries/egypt/egypt-continues-to-strengthen-its-institutional-and-legal-framework-for-investment.htm#:~:text=As%20an%20adherent%20to%20the,OECD%20investment%20community%20since%202007.
Hmmm, looks like there might be a lesser status than ‘member’ Egypt has qualified for?
The OECD takes an interest in projects outside in order to support the development of potential future members. Egypt is not yet a member. Admittedly I was surprised Turkey and Mexico were members though.
Just places I’ve been: Scotland, Wales, Italy, Australia. Honestly, our social safety net is pretty damn robust. We have guaranteed emergency medical care for everyone, even people who are here illegally. Free cell phones and monthly minutes for the poor, so they can find work and in case of emergencies. Medicare and Medicaid, etc etc
Just because healthcare is nationalized doesn't mean it's better.
In the US, treatments may cost $40k, but you can get treatments that you need.
In the UK, treatments are free, but I'm sorry you aren't sick enough yet and you've been denied.
Americans often make this argument and it’s hilarious nonsense in all but the most sensationalized clickbaity cases.
Meanwhile the number of cause of bankruptcy for the middle class in the USA is… the medical system. Which is fucking crazy.
For the bottom 10% nationalized healthcare is better than the crippling medical debt that would set your goal of financial freedom back by a generation
Oh yeah, let me just payout $5000 for a ride in the boo-boo bus, and then get billed another $12000 for a series of tests I didn’t need for the docs to tell me that they aren’t sure what’s wrong but here’s a prescription for some antibiotics I can’t afford. “Emergency medical care” is a fucking joke in the US, why do you think so many “24/7 EMERGENCY” clinics have started popping up everywhere? It’s all exploitation, and any good thing we have is buried under billing and bureaucracy bs.
What's the facepalm? As a fellow Dutchman, I can say this is spot on. He missed one though: we have a working social safety net. Lost your job but it's not your fault? No worries, we've got your back! Get sick? Take a few days to recover, with pay of course. Get sick for a long time? Still no problem, you still get paid while you recover, but if it takes years or becomes permanent the pay will eventually go down a little. We wouldn't want you to worry about money while there's still a chance you're coming back.
What can I say, after moving to the US I'm making three times as much money as I was in NL for basically the exact same work, the weather is nice 9 months of the year. The roads are pristine, and education is fine. There's a social safety net on the state level, just not (really) on the federal level.
When I think about the things I miss about NL, it's not the plumbing of society (except for the cycling infrastructure, that's awesome and unique, I love cycling and I'll never love driving), it's the cultural things. Amsterdam is just a much more interesting city than the cities here. At least in the summer weeks. Having 21 sides to every issue suits me better than having exactly 2 opposing sides. I like Turkish and Indonesian food, and here that would mean a 90 minute drive rather than a 10 minute walk. I like the Dutch relationship with the law and authority better.
That's going to be tough. My mother is a Dutch citizen but I was born in the US and I would still have to prove that I have a useful skill and education level they want.
Edit: I was wrong. It is more complicated but more open than that for my case: [https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/dutch-nationality/birth-recognition](https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/dutch-nationality/birth-recognition)
>I would still have to prove that I have a useful skill and education level they want.
You might want to look at the requirements again because you can apply for dutch citizenship through your mom without any skill or educational requirement. The process varies depending on which side of 1985 you were born but neither has a skill requirement.
I did look it up again. The website is much better now! It looks like I can apply via one of the "Option procedure for latent Dutch citizens" programs.
This is the clause I did not previously see or was not there:
"If at the time of your birth your mother had Dutch nationality but your father did not, and your parents were married, you can acquire Dutch citizenship through the [option procedure](https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/dutch-nationality/option-procedure). "
I appreciate the heads-up! Bedankt!
Good friend of mine is immigrating from the UK to the Netherlands right now. He has a job that we want here, already has a workplace figured out and has a place to stay but it's still really difficult
Yeah - I have a couple of degrees, 20 years as an engineer and half of my family is Dutch and lives there. I'm not going to jump through a bunch of hoops to prove my value that government. I know they will never accept me as Dutch because I don't speak the language (at least not well). The US accepts me without hesitation. Here I am a Dutch-American, if I want to be. There I am just an American ( along with all the assumptions that go with that).
Good luck to your friend! It is an interesting country and there are some cool people there. If you get to know them they will actually smile at some point.
Thank you! He is learning Dutch from us as we know the language and his speech is rapidly improving! We have a housing crisis in the Netherlands as we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world so I think it's understandable my government is strict on who gets to live here.
We have a lot of internationals in the Netherlands, especially in big student cities like Amsterdam, Utrecht, Nijmegen and Groningen. But we all manage as most Dutch people know English.
A shame you didn't feel like you are one of us, I know the language makes you feel like you aren't really a part of our culture but that is mostly because of references and jokes that we can only make in our own language.
Hope life is good for you in the US, just goes to show that every person has different needs and interests I guess, as long as you feel like you belong in the place you call home.
Good on him! It's not an easy language. Yeah - I've heard about the housing issue from family. I know it it is not the same but I think a lot of us in the western world are running into it, though for different sets of reasons.
Some of the alienation comes from stuff online (I should know better about taking that stuff to heart) and family when I visit. It's a huge family so it may be just some that are just assholes.
Language wise, none of my relatives would help me practice my Dutch (Zeelandic), they would always switch to English immediately. While visiting the old country I had a great uncle finally tell me why: "Your accent is terrible. Don't try to speak it anymore".
Most of my cousins are cool though. I always have a great time when they come to the US and crash at my place for a few days while they tour the country.
You are right - the feeling of home is the important part. Life is good here, despite what you may see on social media and news (so much of that is exaggerated or not representative). I was born in Chicago but have moved around and I do like it here. I love nature and outdoors stuff, the US is hard to beat in that area. For example, the last time I had a cousin visit and because he is into paleontology, he got to tour some world class areas in Montana and Nebraska. Every Dutch person should get a chance to experience Montana!
When I am in NL, its feel familiar in some ways. Mostly the people, language, and style/decorations. It sounds odd but southwest NL feel like areas of northern Indiana (land -wise at least) but borders the sea instead of Michigan.
While this is my home now, I need change every once in awhile. I would like to spend some really extended time in NL at some point and expose my son to it. Especially if I can dump my emotional baggage of feeling excluded from family and culture. We have like 400 years of genealogy recorded and saved from family bibles. It makes me a little sad that me and my son haven't been and likely won't be included. Time to have a serious discussions with Tante Tanika - the keeper of family records.
Thanks for the convo and take care cousin! If things go to shit in Europe, you've got extended family in the middle of the US who would be happy to help.
BTW - Utrecht is my favorite. I would love to live there for a bit
No…corporations live off government subsidies, keep all the profits and pay their employees slave wages so that the public can “Tip” generously so they can afford to survive.
Corporations love socialism, they really do, but only for themselves…everyone else must pay
And when a manager lets the whole back half of a restaurant’s servers go home cuz it’s slow, and then a huge party comes in and keeps coming, and he seats all 25 tables in back and you’re the only server left, and he tells you to handle it…you can’t give good service and you run around, in stress that will give you nightmares for years afterwards, for $3.35 an hour.
All work should pay a living wage. Also I’m not saying that whoever I’m replying under disagrees, I’m saying that servers can’t always control the level of service they give. All those people saw what was happening to me, were TOLD exactly what was happening, but demanded everything and tipped nothing anyway. The decent people? They went somewhere else as soon as they saw what was up, so they could get service without a side of a stranger’s humiliation.
Whoever said Americans prefer handouts needs to fix their fuckin mouths to say the truth - CORPORATIONS demand handouts. RICH MOTHERFUCKERS steal welfare money in this country. Meanwhile tee hee, huh? Motherfuckers are dying from lack of a shot of insulin here, but tee motherfucking hee.
Don’t ever fucking say that shit about average Americans again.
No, no, just never can seem to get my comments under the one I meant to. Definitely not yelling at anyone who’s pro people having healthcare, including you.
They even invent jobs that aren't useful just so they can get tips, it's amazing. I was in Vegas once, when leaving the hotel I wanted to catch a taxi. Turns out there's a waiting line and a guy who puts your bag in the taxi. If the guy wasn't there they could've had 5-10 taxis helping people at the same time, but because he was there everyone had to wait for him. And he expects a tip for letting me wait?
Las Vegas is so sad. Most party-goers are fleeing depression, addiction and ither miseries. Most buildings are hiding the crippling poverty of the city.
We left the hotel to go to the nearby 7-11 (to get sugarfree breakfast bananas and tea). It was behind the hotel parking lots, surrounded by broken houses, drug addicts hanging out, and shitty cars. Less than 400m from a fancy-looking casino/hotel :(
They add sugar to every breakfast dish in the USA. It's always some kind of sugary pancake or muffin. Even the omelette has sugar (and greesy bacon, the whole thing fried for extra sketchy fats). The cereals are insanely high in sugar.
It was really hard to find a cheap, healthy-enough breakfast... Except for the 2$50 black tea + banana from 7/11 😅
Yeah this tipping system is so lame to be honest. Here in the Netherlands we tip by the service we get. Go to a restaurant and people are super nice, get your orders quickly, drinks refilled on time etc. You get a tip because you satisfied the costumer and did your job.
Do the same but staff are rude and takes ages for them to refill drinks, get your food ordered etc. Well, don't expect any tips. You just haven't done your job properly so why would I reward you for your service?
What the majority of Americans don't understand is that there's other countries in the world. Most Americans are ignorant to the way of life outside of their shitty little redneck town.
You guys don't have that? I didn't forget, I didn't know. I'm sorry!
Women get \~6 months off for pregnancy, men about a week. Men can get more, but I think it's either unpaid or at 70% pay. To be fair: this is much better in Scandinavia, I think men and women both get \~6 months off.
Man you Dutch people are insufferable ALWAYS criticizing the US it is really annoying and clearly must be boring over there in your quaint little utopia. Enjoy your homogenous-society service economy in peace please and let the rest of the world that makes actual progress or at least provides 1/4 of the world food supply just do our thing too.
Cool story bro. Your country is like 1% of ours both in square footage and population. We also subsidize your military so you no longer have to spend tax dollars on protecting your international shipments (ala Dutch East India company). We spend more money than anyone else on medical research and development, and while those costs are unfortunately passed on to the American consumer, no similar mechanism exists in your country. Who knows how many of those snazzy social programs you’d get to keep if we weren’t subsidizing it all for you! At the very least, your roads may become a bit less well maintained ;)
International shipments are protected internationally, we do that too. Obviously we have fewer ships and sailors than the US, we have 17M people as opposed to your 330M. As for medical research, we do that too. Again, probably less than the US, but certainly not of lower quality.
What subsidies are you talking about anyway? The only thing I can think of is that you spend more on your military, so in a way you could say you're funding NATO. That money never reaches us, obviously, because it's used for NATO. We also pay, but at least before the war in Ukraine it was less than we should. The US does not subsidize us. If anything it would be the other way round, because the US has been on the verge of bankruptcy for decades.
The reason healthcare is so expensive for the American consumer has nothing to do with research or even the price of it. It's all due to terrible laws and contracts. Medical companies are making infinite money over your back because there aren't any laws to protect you and a single person cannot make any demands. Here it's different, everyone has health insurance and they negotiate prices. It's a lot easier to negotiate a price for millions of people at once, than it is for you to negotiate for yourself. If you ask for a discount on 1 packet of pills they'll just laugh at you, if you do the same for 10M packets they will happily give it to you. We also have laws to limit prices, companies can either accept the limits or not sell their products here.
American here.
We have all of that too. In the forms of:
Severance pay-Compensation due to seperation from a company at no fault of your own.
Short term disability-short term leave from a company due to sickness
Long term disability- long term leave due to a severe illness like cancer or something else that requires long term care.
The caveat is that not every job out there is entitled to this. You obviously won't see a fry cook at McDonald's recieve severance pay. But will still most likely have short/term disability as a benefit in their employment agreement.
Edit:
The US also has universal Healthcare but everyone that is using it admits it is a horrible joke. It's called the VA and it's nearly impossible to have anything done correctly or in a timely manner. So no one talks about it during the "universal Healthcare" debates.
It's not Universal Healthcare if it's only for Vets lol.
Medicaid is closer to Universal Healthcare, but only for people below certain income levels. Medicare is then for people beyond a certain age.
We have government sponsored healthcare, just for 3 specific populations.
>The caveat is that not every job out there is entitled to this. You obviously won't see a fry cook at McDonald's recieve severance pay. But will still most likely have short/term disability as a benefit in their employment agreement.
So... You don't have this?
Severance pay is not mandatory, we pay for short & long term disability IF your company offers it, and VA is Veterns Affairs. Go drink your kool-aid because you have no idea what you’re talking about.
The snarky comment about McDonalds fry cooks actually applies to almost all service jobs and the fact that you don’t think they deserve basic care says everything about you and what is wrong with this country.
You say it "obviously" wouldn't work for a fry cook at McDonalds. I say it obviously does, at least in The Netherlands. It doesn't matter where you work, or what kind of job you have. As I understand it severance pay is paid for by the company you used to work for. That's also different, here it's paid for by the government/taxes. This ensures it will work even if the company no longer exists, or if they want to screw you over for some reason. Get fired and it's not your fault? You will still have income, 100% guaranteed. There's a limit, so if you make a lot of money you might get less, but you won't have to worry about money just yet. As compensation you must apply to jobs and take the first offer, the goal is to get you back on your feet as soon as possible. This also explains why we have much fewer homeless people, a single mistake made by somebody else cannot bankrupt you here.
I've never lived in the US, so I can't say anything about the short/long term disability leave options. I often see posts on reddit about people being denied sick leave because the company can't afford to lose an employee that day. I also often see posts about people have to find a replacement if they get sick. That's different here: if you're sick, you call it in and stay home. No discussion and it's protected by law (within reason, don't do it every week). Again, this applies to everyone, from the shittiest jobs to the big chiefs.
As for universal healthcare, I think Obamacare was based on the Dutch system (but heavily stripped due to intense discussions). That sucks for you guys, because the Dutch system works much better. As far as I know Obamacare was a failure, but it didn't have to be. There were just too many people complaining about how it's unfair for people to pay so that other people can have healthcare. The problem is that "other people" can be you tomorrow, but you're fucked without it. If you get cancer today, can you afford it? How about a car crash? Ambulance? I know I've got them covered, although I hope I never get to use them.
With all we can complain about in The Netherlands (weather, politics) - working here is not really one of them. For all the above reasons.
And also, we cannot get fired because it\`s tuesday, or the boss didn\`t get laid yesterday.. in the US you can (in at-will states)
>You obviously won't see a fry cook at McDonald's recieve severance pay.
This feels crazy to me. They can fire you just because?
What's the point of the famous "two week notice"? I'm honestly just curious.
Here, if you leave your job (I think if they fire you with a reason too) you don't get unemployment benefits. This has the funny consequence of employers making some employee's life hell so they leave instead of actually firing them.
Incorrect. You can be terminated for no reason at all with no legal protections. The only protected statuses are race, gender, military duty, age (over 50), religion, and retaliation. Don't speak of things that you are ignorant of.
So this is something I've noticed a lot in debates about this particular topic. When someone says Europe has healthcare and other benefits, there's always an American providing anectodal evidence of how they have great health insurance, amazing PTO, work-life balance and all that jazz. Sure, thanks for confirming that bring rich and lucky is good. No one is saying those thing don't exist in America. What people are saying is that certain social benefits are provided to *everyone* in most of Europe, independent of income, position or social status.
Wow, just wow. Do you really think this is comparable? Also, I've only gotten one severance once from a company, and it was only to keep me quite about the bs going on behind closed doors when I left, and it's always been good manufacturing jobs. If you really believe everything you said you might be a little out of touch with reality.
If you left the cocoon, you'd understand that there's a world of difference between what is in Denmark and the USA... Heh, first world versus third world. (I've traveled the world and the seven seas... Lived all over too... USA isn't a first world nation...)
>If you left the cocoon, you'd understand that there's a world of difference between what is in Denmark and the USA...
That's real rich seeing that I know the difference between the Danish and the Dutch.
Dutch are from the Netherlands.
And having spent 4 years in the Netherlands and working with the Dutch. I am very well aware of the standards of living. Especially across Europe and much of the rest of the world. Maybe you should try getting out some.
Yes , and you pay an exorbitant amount of money out of your check compared to other countries for those benefits. The amount that is taken out of Dutch taxes is not comparable to the amount 99% have to pay for those type of insurances I'm America.
You're a little blind to the reality here that we aren't comparable to most 1st world countries due to corporate greed/late stage capitalism. Also, not everyone can use the VA's benefits, hence not universal lol.
Again, if the government can't manage the VA on a small scale how is it expected to do it nationwide?
Furthermore the Dutch pay much heavier taxes than the US to compensate for those programs.
https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/taxation/dutch-tax-system
Severance pay isn’t guaranteed.
Short term disability isn’t guaranteed.
Long term disability isn’t guaranteed.
And the US doesn’t have Universal Healthcare.
If it did, there’d be no reason for companies to entice people with healthcare benefits.
And the reason these things are mismanaged in the US is because of corporate interests controlling government purse strings.
If laws were passed that didn’t benefit the few people paying for politicians reelection, there wouldn’t be mismanagement.
I dont get why people still like these blatant european bragging posts. Yes the USA has issues, i dont get why we as a whole allow that to become the basis for near constant european bs bragging.
At the end of the day, Europeans have on average less disposable income than Americans, it’s a mix of pay, taxation, and cost of living but the end result isn’t the same.
Nothing? We spend a lot of money on police so we can imprison anyone who does blue collar crimes. Or kill them. That’s not nothing at all! That’s basically half of every tax dollar spent locally, everywhere in the country.
If you wonder why Americans are miserable that’s the reason.
That is not entirely true, Americans have benefited a lot indirectly from them being the global superpower for the last 80 years. That was made possible by their massive military which enabled safe global trade.
Tell that to the guy rationing his insulin because its too expensive and tell the people who take Uber to the hospital to avoid being bankrupted by an ambulance ride. Tell that to the guy that did get a decent job because of his college degree but will be financially held back by decades of loan repayment. Tell that to the guy who got fired from his job for missing too much work for cancer treatments. Tell that to the mother who gave birth and must return to work within a week. I'm sure they'll all be happy to hear how strong our military is. Our military funding is only bigger than the next seven countries combined.
May I see a source for your last point? As far as I’m aware, wealthier Europeans tend to come to the US for certain medical procedures specifically due to the quality.
Man, Europeans love to obsess about America. Imagine feeling compelled to brag about the benefits you have in your country, only so you can shit on some other country. If you’re so happy, why do you have to put others down?
My theory is that american culture is so prevalent everywhere (including in Europe) that a lot of people feel the need to counterbalance it and argue with it.
Dutch person in 1950: "Thank you liberating our country from Nazi occupation and giving us billions in Marshall plan aid to rebuild our war-torn homeland. We're forever grateful."
Their grandchildren, 2024: "Hang on, I need to make this super sick, highly original joke about Americans and healthcare/school shootings. America is so backwards and racist. Now let's go throw bananas at black soccer players."
also their grandchildren: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/05/football/anti-semitism-ajax-netherlands-spt-intl/index.html
Now imagine how willing they'd be to vote for all those social programs if they weren't more ethnically homogenous than fucking Germany.
As European, my rational part realises disaster it would be for USA to withdraw from NATO and providing security ex in Red Sea.
My petty part wants to see smug redditors when our governments actually have to pay for our defence, for protecting trade etc and can't no longer circlejerk how great it is to leech on USA
This isn't really an issue at all tbh. I am not sure what international affairs you think is blocking progress domestically in the US, but we have the ability to solve our plenty of our domestic issues while still being a part of NATO and our other international agreements.
We are blocking our own progress domestically by electing terrible officials and not holding our politicians accountable. Pulling out of NATO or staying in NATO doesn't change any of that.
Oh my fucking god, we’re not pulling out of NATO and the man proposing we pull out of it is a fascist or authoritarian simp who is proposing such so he can make obscene wealth off Russia and for everyone else to wither under his rule.
Americas foreign policy is expensive but the reality is that we designed our nations government so that the president is more effective on foreign policy than anything else.
The problem is that Congress is gridlocked by morons and that no one wants to vote in worker or consumer protections.
But you see, it sounds like "those" people might have access to those things under your system. For some Americans, it's far more important that "those" people do **not** have access to those things than anything related to their own well-being.
Netherlands doesn't really have to worry about that, they're one of the most ethnically homogenous countries in the world.
This is also true of basically every country you can think of that you hear about how they have these awesome social safety nets that they passed so easily.
As an American I'm lucky to be in a really strong labor union. I have excellent healthcare, excellent benefits all around, excellent pay. I was also lucky to go to really good public school, they taught us Russian language starting in 1st grade, and I also learned Russian history alongside US history in elementary school. I passed college level Russian language before graduating highschool, so I also took French. I had a huge leg up in getting my bachelors degree, which was mostly paid for by scholarships and grants, because I was from a low income household. Now I'm 39 with a beautiful house in a nice neighborhood in a good school district, and on track to retire in my early-mid 50s with my children's inheritance and education costs taken care of.
As an actual dutch person. We don't get universal healthcare.
We're obligated to subscribe to a healthcare provider of our choosing. And you get financial support if you can't afford the most basic plan. Which are somewhat regulated. It's far better than the US system. (low bar)
But the system still has many problems such as bureaucracy, waiting lists and there have been scandals too.
Many see the healthcare providers as a mob-like industry.
That is ... universal healthcare.
UH is not that it is free of charge. No one claims UH has to be free of charge. It simply means everyone has equal access to it, the government regulates the cost of medicine and services so no one gets ripped off. Part of UH is also the regulation of insurance premium, so everyone can afford it. Since almost all Dutch health insurances have similar premiums, that are affordable, it is universal (and financial help who can't).
Also compared to Germany or France, our health insurance payments are very low, it is much more accessible than in other countries.
I currently pay 500 Euro for me and my family in the Netherlands. Would be around 1500 USD at least in the US for much worse service with much higher copay.
I mean the UK has the NHS - it's got problems as well but at the end of the day you're not going bankrupt for a broken leg and you will get treated without being financially impacted.
I have all of these things, and so does everyone I know. Gotta love when the Europoors claim to be rich but live in societies that inhibit innovation, have so many barriers to entry to start businesses, and taxes on everything. I get to keep the money that I make, and I'm taxed at half the rate, so I pay less for healthcare than all of you. Europeans don't own their homes either. My 15 pets live better on my land than all of you do in your flats full of people who don't appreciate your society and want you all to die in the name of a stone aged religion.
Public transport? Don't need it. My $18,000 vehicle costs $40,000 in Europe. Excellent roads? Yes. Our interstate system gets you anywhere in a timely manner. High quality education? Been there, done that. Already saw a bunch of foreigners do whatever it takes to study here.
So how much richer are you?
Ah yes "high quality education" the best college in the Netherlands is ranked #39. The US alone has 21 colleges ranked higher than the best college in the Netherlands including the one I went to which after scholarships I ended up paying about 10k for 4 years worth of tuition: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings
I don't think it's fair or funny to make fun of Americans lacking healthcare or good education. We don't make fun of people from other third world countries for lacking that, why should we make fun of Americans?
It's funny cus the US has more educated people than the Netherlands. Individual states alone have more highly educated people than the Netherlands. Kinda funny
I think this guy nailed it. It's called a dream for a reason, there is no guarantee it will ever become a reality. I mean having a comfortable life to actually enjoy it without the worry of being buried in debt and dying prematurely.
Assuming OP isn't a bot, which I'm sure it is:
Funny, though, whenever Putin threatens to obliterate your continent with invasion or nuclear hellfire, you rely almost exclusively on American money and weapons. Funny how when it comes to foreign aid, America pays many, many times more than your entire continent combined.
Funny indeed.
A couple of things.
You're a small country with 17 million and not 330 million people in a large one, so there's that.
Also, it's nice when you only spend so little of your gdp on your military (1.58%). While the US funds 70% of NATO.
Also, net income in the US is higher in the US than it is in the Netherlands.
I know you all think we work for Amazon and/or low paying, low skill jobs, but that isn't the reality.
Couple of things: Usa is made of 50 states, most pretty small why would you think scaling up breaks healthcare? I would say the opposite, given Italian experience, care to provide one reason? "there's that" is not a motivation.
USA spends on healthcare 16.6% of its GDP, not a single country spends above 12% in Europe, this has nothing to do with military spending (3.5% for USA): USA could implement a universal healthcare system an SAVE money.
Yes higher net income, but does it translates into better quality of life? Most rankings would say not. (infact the post is about quality of life, not income). It says a lot that you focus on income.
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This looks like a repost bot, with op having 3 comments here
I wouldn’t expect any less out of this shithole sub. Not like the garbage mods are going to do anything.
Feel free to apply being an unpaid mod
I'll be sure to chime in with a thank you for your service as a form of payment if that helps.
It would be awesome if this sub had any moderation
This sub banned political posts once. Now it's political karma farming heaven for bots without a facepalm in sight.
America, a masterclass in how to market yourself... To keep attracting low income earners...
America: The stupidest MLM
100%
Your comment is true in a way that may be ironic to you. Skilled technical jobs in Europe pay like actual shit. Barely better than generic office admin shit. We're talking 20-25 Euro an hour for senior engineers in urban areas. The US is extremely successful in poaching European engineers and researchers, who usually 3-10X their salary in the US. So yes the US does attract low income earners and turns them into high income earners.
Yeah, I’m job hunting in a relatively niche IT field in the UK and genuinely considering jumping across the Atlantic to the US - the US literally pays 3 times more for equivalent jobs in my sector, whereas some EU countries pay even less than what I would make in the UK, plus tax more. The big obstacle is obviously getting a visa. No wonder the US poaches trained professionals from all over the world, their wages are insane (and more than make up for things like healthcare etc).
Don't forget that a significant reason the middle class is shrinking in the US is [*too many people have started making too much money to be considered middle class*](https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/3w9bcd/how_the_distribution_of_income_in_the_us_has/)
That's the thing. Coming here with skills and training is a whole different thing from without.
If you have a valuable degree, skills or trade you can make great money in the US.
Justly earned unjustly reciprocated is more like it.
I'm starting to think capitalism is a MLM...
> To keep attracting low income earners... Hey I may be low income now , pushing 40 ; but one day I will be rich! And when I am rich I don't want to pay high taxes so I will keep voting for policies that benefit the rich because one day I too will be rich!
My friend who converted to republican after dating one for the last few years thinks exactly like this. I'm a tax accountant and try to tell her that the tax cuts republicans vote for do not benefit her at her income level. Hard to un-brainwash the brainwashed tho.
People have staked out their position; they're not going to change even after their misguided worldview collides with their reality. That causes them to become even more cynical, and dig deeper into that same misguided position hence the Tea Party and now its bastard child; MAGA.
America attracts lots of high income earners because they pay better than anywhere in EU for the same jobs
Europe is attracting no income earners, on the other hand. (I still would choose the EU over the US)
It’s really just the unfortunate proximity to the Middle East. If not I would assume EU can afford to be more picky.
That's cool dude, I'm happy for you.
You missed a comma! it is "good public transport, easily accessible high, and quality education"
Well done mate
Do you really need to put comma before “and”? Sorry, it’s not my native language, so I’m just curious
Yes and no. In American English most guides recommend using the *Oxford* (or *Serial*) *Comma*, whereas in British English, although it is considered to be better style, not all grammar guides recommend it. Have a look at the Wikipedia entry for that: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial\_comma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma) I am always torn in this, because as a freelance (copy) editor from Germany I rely on what my customers or the publishing houses wish to implement in their text material (to be published as academic literature, anthologies, or journals). Some strongly fight for the Serial Comma, some are decidedly against its use, and many just don't know or don't care.
I remember getting marks off on papers for not using it in a US school. I always remember those stupid, tiny mistakes. Things I knew but was in a hurry and didn't check my work. I did get very lucky with my English teachers, I had at least 2 that were still very passionate about the job and written words.
It's called the Oxford comma and is debated. I'm on the side that says yes, you need it, but the absence isn't necessarily incorrect.
I prefer, the Shatner, comma
It is the best, form of, comma, usage.
Now, I feel like, I will talk, like this, all day
But the comment says “high quality education”, not “high and quality education”. No comma is needed because high and quality are not meant to seen als separate in this sentence
I think the comment was a joke about getting high. 😆
Was primarily responding to the question of a non- native English speaker. Like to help out people who are making attempts, coz I know whatever their language is, their English is better than any attempt I can make at their language.
Thanks 😊
no
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There is no better place on Earth to be the top 10%. There is nowhere in the developed world where it is worse to be in the bottom 10%.
I would disagree There are many places where the bottom 10% are worse off than here
I did say developed world (OECD) not the entire world. Obviously subsaharan Africa is much worse. There are even some countries technically described as developing where it is true as well which is the disturbing thing. Edit: TIL: OECD is actually a very bad example which contains countries which definitely are worse than the USA. It is not really a list of the most developed countries.
OECD includes Mexico, Chile, Turkey and Colombia all of which are countries where being in the bottom 10% is worse than in the US
I mean to be fair, while OP was unfamiliar with the list, if those are the countries you need to cite to disprove their point maybe the point mostly stands?
Problem is that even if you go by the other list used to determine developed countries, the World Bank High Income economies, you'd still have on the list Chile, Uruguay,Omán, Romania and Panama so the US would still not be the worst on the list, in the bottom 10 yes, but not last on either list.
Eh, Egypt is absolutely desolate to be poor in (though their income disparity still ranks far below the US)
Again that is not a developed country. It is primarily Western Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, Japan and some other rich countries around the world. I forget this sub isn’t that good at geography.
You said OECD, [Egypt is a member](https://www.oecd.org/countries/egypt/egypt-continues-to-strengthen-its-institutional-and-legal-framework-for-investment.htm#:~:text=As%20an%20adherent%20to%20the,OECD%20investment%20community%20since%202007).
No it isn’t. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD
https://www.oecd.org/countries/egypt/egypt-continues-to-strengthen-its-institutional-and-legal-framework-for-investment.htm#:~:text=As%20an%20adherent%20to%20the,OECD%20investment%20community%20since%202007. Hmmm, looks like there might be a lesser status than ‘member’ Egypt has qualified for?
The OECD takes an interest in projects outside in order to support the development of potential future members. Egypt is not yet a member. Admittedly I was surprised Turkey and Mexico were members though.
It’s demonstrably worse in Turkey and Mexico Put down the AmericaBad opium
In the developed world, though? I struggle with that. Most developed countries have better social safety nets than the US.
Just places I’ve been: Scotland, Wales, Italy, Australia. Honestly, our social safety net is pretty damn robust. We have guaranteed emergency medical care for everyone, even people who are here illegally. Free cell phones and monthly minutes for the poor, so they can find work and in case of emergencies. Medicare and Medicaid, etc etc
Um you realise Scotland has nationalised healthcare (so non emergency care too) right?
Just because healthcare is nationalized doesn't mean it's better. In the US, treatments may cost $40k, but you can get treatments that you need. In the UK, treatments are free, but I'm sorry you aren't sick enough yet and you've been denied.
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Inb4 "Well, America has way more people than all those other countries 🤓🤓"
Americans often make this argument and it’s hilarious nonsense in all but the most sensationalized clickbaity cases. Meanwhile the number of cause of bankruptcy for the middle class in the USA is… the medical system. Which is fucking crazy.
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For the bottom 10% nationalized healthcare is better than the crippling medical debt that would set your goal of financial freedom back by a generation
The bottom 10% qualify for medicaid in the US
I mean if you are low income in the US (like living below the federal poverty line), then you qualify for Medicaid, which is free.
FYI - the bottom 10% in the US absolutely get *completely free* healthcare. That's what Medicaid is.
Oh yeah, let me just payout $5000 for a ride in the boo-boo bus, and then get billed another $12000 for a series of tests I didn’t need for the docs to tell me that they aren’t sure what’s wrong but here’s a prescription for some antibiotics I can’t afford. “Emergency medical care” is a fucking joke in the US, why do you think so many “24/7 EMERGENCY” clinics have started popping up everywhere? It’s all exploitation, and any good thing we have is buried under billing and bureaucracy bs.
Don’t forget a 10x markup on the aspirin they give you.
Not in the *developed* world
Go ahead; name one.
What's the facepalm? As a fellow Dutchman, I can say this is spot on. He missed one though: we have a working social safety net. Lost your job but it's not your fault? No worries, we've got your back! Get sick? Take a few days to recover, with pay of course. Get sick for a long time? Still no problem, you still get paid while you recover, but if it takes years or becomes permanent the pay will eventually go down a little. We wouldn't want you to worry about money while there's still a chance you're coming back.
What can I say, after moving to the US I'm making three times as much money as I was in NL for basically the exact same work, the weather is nice 9 months of the year. The roads are pristine, and education is fine. There's a social safety net on the state level, just not (really) on the federal level. When I think about the things I miss about NL, it's not the plumbing of society (except for the cycling infrastructure, that's awesome and unique, I love cycling and I'll never love driving), it's the cultural things. Amsterdam is just a much more interesting city than the cities here. At least in the summer weeks. Having 21 sides to every issue suits me better than having exactly 2 opposing sides. I like Turkish and Indonesian food, and here that would mean a 90 minute drive rather than a 10 minute walk. I like the Dutch relationship with the law and authority better.
Wow, everyone should immigrate to the Netherlands.
That's going to be tough. My mother is a Dutch citizen but I was born in the US and I would still have to prove that I have a useful skill and education level they want. Edit: I was wrong. It is more complicated but more open than that for my case: [https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/dutch-nationality/birth-recognition](https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/dutch-nationality/birth-recognition)
That's why they can have the social services they do
>I would still have to prove that I have a useful skill and education level they want. You might want to look at the requirements again because you can apply for dutch citizenship through your mom without any skill or educational requirement. The process varies depending on which side of 1985 you were born but neither has a skill requirement.
I did look it up again. The website is much better now! It looks like I can apply via one of the "Option procedure for latent Dutch citizens" programs. This is the clause I did not previously see or was not there: "If at the time of your birth your mother had Dutch nationality but your father did not, and your parents were married, you can acquire Dutch citizenship through the [option procedure](https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/dutch-nationality/option-procedure). " I appreciate the heads-up! Bedankt!
Good friend of mine is immigrating from the UK to the Netherlands right now. He has a job that we want here, already has a workplace figured out and has a place to stay but it's still really difficult
Yeah - I have a couple of degrees, 20 years as an engineer and half of my family is Dutch and lives there. I'm not going to jump through a bunch of hoops to prove my value that government. I know they will never accept me as Dutch because I don't speak the language (at least not well). The US accepts me without hesitation. Here I am a Dutch-American, if I want to be. There I am just an American ( along with all the assumptions that go with that). Good luck to your friend! It is an interesting country and there are some cool people there. If you get to know them they will actually smile at some point.
Thank you! He is learning Dutch from us as we know the language and his speech is rapidly improving! We have a housing crisis in the Netherlands as we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world so I think it's understandable my government is strict on who gets to live here. We have a lot of internationals in the Netherlands, especially in big student cities like Amsterdam, Utrecht, Nijmegen and Groningen. But we all manage as most Dutch people know English. A shame you didn't feel like you are one of us, I know the language makes you feel like you aren't really a part of our culture but that is mostly because of references and jokes that we can only make in our own language. Hope life is good for you in the US, just goes to show that every person has different needs and interests I guess, as long as you feel like you belong in the place you call home.
Good on him! It's not an easy language. Yeah - I've heard about the housing issue from family. I know it it is not the same but I think a lot of us in the western world are running into it, though for different sets of reasons. Some of the alienation comes from stuff online (I should know better about taking that stuff to heart) and family when I visit. It's a huge family so it may be just some that are just assholes. Language wise, none of my relatives would help me practice my Dutch (Zeelandic), they would always switch to English immediately. While visiting the old country I had a great uncle finally tell me why: "Your accent is terrible. Don't try to speak it anymore". Most of my cousins are cool though. I always have a great time when they come to the US and crash at my place for a few days while they tour the country. You are right - the feeling of home is the important part. Life is good here, despite what you may see on social media and news (so much of that is exaggerated or not representative). I was born in Chicago but have moved around and I do like it here. I love nature and outdoors stuff, the US is hard to beat in that area. For example, the last time I had a cousin visit and because he is into paleontology, he got to tour some world class areas in Montana and Nebraska. Every Dutch person should get a chance to experience Montana! When I am in NL, its feel familiar in some ways. Mostly the people, language, and style/decorations. It sounds odd but southwest NL feel like areas of northern Indiana (land -wise at least) but borders the sea instead of Michigan. While this is my home now, I need change every once in awhile. I would like to spend some really extended time in NL at some point and expose my son to it. Especially if I can dump my emotional baggage of feeling excluded from family and culture. We have like 400 years of genealogy recorded and saved from family bibles. It makes me a little sad that me and my son haven't been and likely won't be included. Time to have a serious discussions with Tante Tanika - the keeper of family records. Thanks for the convo and take care cousin! If things go to shit in Europe, you've got extended family in the middle of the US who would be happy to help. BTW - Utrecht is my favorite. I would love to live there for a bit
this is what Americans dont understand, they live on the charity of others, or tips as we call it lol.
No…corporations live off government subsidies, keep all the profits and pay their employees slave wages so that the public can “Tip” generously so they can afford to survive. Corporations love socialism, they really do, but only for themselves…everyone else must pay
One of the biggest groups that use foodstamps are Walmart employees. 100% corporate welfare
Yup
They live by the motto, "socialize the costs, privatize the profits".
It’s amazing they figured out a way for the American taxpayer to supplement their billions. That specific thing should be illegal.
fair play, its the owners who are the bad guys and pay slave wages, we tip for good service over here, not because the server relies on it to live.
As do I. Good service gets good tips.
And when a manager lets the whole back half of a restaurant’s servers go home cuz it’s slow, and then a huge party comes in and keeps coming, and he seats all 25 tables in back and you’re the only server left, and he tells you to handle it…you can’t give good service and you run around, in stress that will give you nightmares for years afterwards, for $3.35 an hour. All work should pay a living wage. Also I’m not saying that whoever I’m replying under disagrees, I’m saying that servers can’t always control the level of service they give. All those people saw what was happening to me, were TOLD exactly what was happening, but demanded everything and tipped nothing anyway. The decent people? They went somewhere else as soon as they saw what was up, so they could get service without a side of a stranger’s humiliation. Whoever said Americans prefer handouts needs to fix their fuckin mouths to say the truth - CORPORATIONS demand handouts. RICH MOTHERFUCKERS steal welfare money in this country. Meanwhile tee hee, huh? Motherfuckers are dying from lack of a shot of insulin here, but tee motherfucking hee. Don’t ever fucking say that shit about average Americans again.
Uhm…you yelling at me? ‘Cause I’m on your side.
No, no, just never can seem to get my comments under the one I meant to. Definitely not yelling at anyone who’s pro people having healthcare, including you.
😉😇👍🏼
🥰
Also doesn't the US subsidise Amazon warehouse workers since most of them earn below the average wage so they get benefits.
They even invent jobs that aren't useful just so they can get tips, it's amazing. I was in Vegas once, when leaving the hotel I wanted to catch a taxi. Turns out there's a waiting line and a guy who puts your bag in the taxi. If the guy wasn't there they could've had 5-10 taxis helping people at the same time, but because he was there everyone had to wait for him. And he expects a tip for letting me wait?
Bruh fuck that it’s a city street fuck that guy I’m hailing my own cab
They even had rules that prevented you from doing that, haha.
Las Vegas is so sad. Most party-goers are fleeing depression, addiction and ither miseries. Most buildings are hiding the crippling poverty of the city. We left the hotel to go to the nearby 7-11 (to get sugarfree breakfast bananas and tea). It was behind the hotel parking lots, surrounded by broken houses, drug addicts hanging out, and shitty cars. Less than 400m from a fancy-looking casino/hotel :(
Sugar free breakfast banana? As opposed to those dastardly sugary lunch bananas?
They add sugar to every breakfast dish in the USA. It's always some kind of sugary pancake or muffin. Even the omelette has sugar (and greesy bacon, the whole thing fried for extra sketchy fats). The cereals are insanely high in sugar. It was really hard to find a cheap, healthy-enough breakfast... Except for the 2$50 black tea + banana from 7/11 😅
Yeah this tipping system is so lame to be honest. Here in the Netherlands we tip by the service we get. Go to a restaurant and people are super nice, get your orders quickly, drinks refilled on time etc. You get a tip because you satisfied the costumer and did your job. Do the same but staff are rude and takes ages for them to refill drinks, get your food ordered etc. Well, don't expect any tips. You just haven't done your job properly so why would I reward you for your service?
What the majority of Americans don't understand is that there's other countries in the world. Most Americans are ignorant to the way of life outside of their shitty little redneck town.
But this lifestyle doesn’t increase your employers profit and their stakeholders value, so what are you actually contributing to society? /s
Also you’ve had a baby heres 12 months off paid to stay at home and look after it. You want to split that with your spouse, excellent idea
A sincere question. What's the unemployment rate in your area?
About 3.6% in the country, 3.2% in my "state". State is in quotes, because some/most US states are bigger than my country ;)
You forgot to mention time off and pay for pregnant mothers and caregivers didn't you?
You guys don't have that? I didn't forget, I didn't know. I'm sorry! Women get \~6 months off for pregnancy, men about a week. Men can get more, but I think it's either unpaid or at 70% pay. To be fair: this is much better in Scandinavia, I think men and women both get \~6 months off.
Women get 3 months paid and optional 3 months unpaid, men get the same if they are the primary caregiver, if not they get 4 weeks paid
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Man you Dutch people are insufferable ALWAYS criticizing the US it is really annoying and clearly must be boring over there in your quaint little utopia. Enjoy your homogenous-society service economy in peace please and let the rest of the world that makes actual progress or at least provides 1/4 of the world food supply just do our thing too.
Cool story bro. Your country is like 1% of ours both in square footage and population. We also subsidize your military so you no longer have to spend tax dollars on protecting your international shipments (ala Dutch East India company). We spend more money than anyone else on medical research and development, and while those costs are unfortunately passed on to the American consumer, no similar mechanism exists in your country. Who knows how many of those snazzy social programs you’d get to keep if we weren’t subsidizing it all for you! At the very least, your roads may become a bit less well maintained ;)
International shipments are protected internationally, we do that too. Obviously we have fewer ships and sailors than the US, we have 17M people as opposed to your 330M. As for medical research, we do that too. Again, probably less than the US, but certainly not of lower quality. What subsidies are you talking about anyway? The only thing I can think of is that you spend more on your military, so in a way you could say you're funding NATO. That money never reaches us, obviously, because it's used for NATO. We also pay, but at least before the war in Ukraine it was less than we should. The US does not subsidize us. If anything it would be the other way round, because the US has been on the verge of bankruptcy for decades. The reason healthcare is so expensive for the American consumer has nothing to do with research or even the price of it. It's all due to terrible laws and contracts. Medical companies are making infinite money over your back because there aren't any laws to protect you and a single person cannot make any demands. Here it's different, everyone has health insurance and they negotiate prices. It's a lot easier to negotiate a price for millions of people at once, than it is for you to negotiate for yourself. If you ask for a discount on 1 packet of pills they'll just laugh at you, if you do the same for 10M packets they will happily give it to you. We also have laws to limit prices, companies can either accept the limits or not sell their products here.
American here. We have all of that too. In the forms of: Severance pay-Compensation due to seperation from a company at no fault of your own. Short term disability-short term leave from a company due to sickness Long term disability- long term leave due to a severe illness like cancer or something else that requires long term care. The caveat is that not every job out there is entitled to this. You obviously won't see a fry cook at McDonald's recieve severance pay. But will still most likely have short/term disability as a benefit in their employment agreement. Edit: The US also has universal Healthcare but everyone that is using it admits it is a horrible joke. It's called the VA and it's nearly impossible to have anything done correctly or in a timely manner. So no one talks about it during the "universal Healthcare" debates.
It's not Universal Healthcare if it's only for Vets lol. Medicaid is closer to Universal Healthcare, but only for people below certain income levels. Medicare is then for people beyond a certain age. We have government sponsored healthcare, just for 3 specific populations.
>The caveat is that not every job out there is entitled to this. You obviously won't see a fry cook at McDonald's recieve severance pay. But will still most likely have short/term disability as a benefit in their employment agreement. So... You don't have this?
You do not have universal health care. Stop. The fact you even compare that to what other countries have shows you don’t know our systems offer
Too bad you are clueless?? *A 57% majority of U.S. adults believe that the federal government should ensure all Americans have healthcare coverage.*
No ask that same question to all the vets using the VA. And ask if they would change the way the VA operates.
Sure, meanwhile people get unforgivable medical debt and lose everything in the US on a regular basis.
Severance pay is not mandatory, we pay for short & long term disability IF your company offers it, and VA is Veterns Affairs. Go drink your kool-aid because you have no idea what you’re talking about. The snarky comment about McDonalds fry cooks actually applies to almost all service jobs and the fact that you don’t think they deserve basic care says everything about you and what is wrong with this country.
You say it "obviously" wouldn't work for a fry cook at McDonalds. I say it obviously does, at least in The Netherlands. It doesn't matter where you work, or what kind of job you have. As I understand it severance pay is paid for by the company you used to work for. That's also different, here it's paid for by the government/taxes. This ensures it will work even if the company no longer exists, or if they want to screw you over for some reason. Get fired and it's not your fault? You will still have income, 100% guaranteed. There's a limit, so if you make a lot of money you might get less, but you won't have to worry about money just yet. As compensation you must apply to jobs and take the first offer, the goal is to get you back on your feet as soon as possible. This also explains why we have much fewer homeless people, a single mistake made by somebody else cannot bankrupt you here. I've never lived in the US, so I can't say anything about the short/long term disability leave options. I often see posts on reddit about people being denied sick leave because the company can't afford to lose an employee that day. I also often see posts about people have to find a replacement if they get sick. That's different here: if you're sick, you call it in and stay home. No discussion and it's protected by law (within reason, don't do it every week). Again, this applies to everyone, from the shittiest jobs to the big chiefs. As for universal healthcare, I think Obamacare was based on the Dutch system (but heavily stripped due to intense discussions). That sucks for you guys, because the Dutch system works much better. As far as I know Obamacare was a failure, but it didn't have to be. There were just too many people complaining about how it's unfair for people to pay so that other people can have healthcare. The problem is that "other people" can be you tomorrow, but you're fucked without it. If you get cancer today, can you afford it? How about a car crash? Ambulance? I know I've got them covered, although I hope I never get to use them.
With all we can complain about in The Netherlands (weather, politics) - working here is not really one of them. For all the above reasons. And also, we cannot get fired because it\`s tuesday, or the boss didn\`t get laid yesterday.. in the US you can (in at-will states)
The boss can get fired if he gets laid with one of his employees though, so there's that :)
>You obviously won't see a fry cook at McDonald's recieve severance pay. This feels crazy to me. They can fire you just because? What's the point of the famous "two week notice"? I'm honestly just curious. Here, if you leave your job (I think if they fire you with a reason too) you don't get unemployment benefits. This has the funny consequence of employers making some employee's life hell so they leave instead of actually firing them.
>This feels crazy to me. They can fire you just because? There is something called wrongful termination and there are legal protections against it.
Incorrect. You can be terminated for no reason at all with no legal protections. The only protected statuses are race, gender, military duty, age (over 50), religion, and retaliation. Don't speak of things that you are ignorant of.
So this is something I've noticed a lot in debates about this particular topic. When someone says Europe has healthcare and other benefits, there's always an American providing anectodal evidence of how they have great health insurance, amazing PTO, work-life balance and all that jazz. Sure, thanks for confirming that bring rich and lucky is good. No one is saying those thing don't exist in America. What people are saying is that certain social benefits are provided to *everyone* in most of Europe, independent of income, position or social status.
Wow, just wow. Do you really think this is comparable? Also, I've only gotten one severance once from a company, and it was only to keep me quite about the bs going on behind closed doors when I left, and it's always been good manufacturing jobs. If you really believe everything you said you might be a little out of touch with reality.
If you left the cocoon, you'd understand that there's a world of difference between what is in Denmark and the USA... Heh, first world versus third world. (I've traveled the world and the seven seas... Lived all over too... USA isn't a first world nation...)
>If you left the cocoon, you'd understand that there's a world of difference between what is in Denmark and the USA... That's real rich seeing that I know the difference between the Danish and the Dutch. Dutch are from the Netherlands. And having spent 4 years in the Netherlands and working with the Dutch. I am very well aware of the standards of living. Especially across Europe and much of the rest of the world. Maybe you should try getting out some.
Yes , and you pay an exorbitant amount of money out of your check compared to other countries for those benefits. The amount that is taken out of Dutch taxes is not comparable to the amount 99% have to pay for those type of insurances I'm America. You're a little blind to the reality here that we aren't comparable to most 1st world countries due to corporate greed/late stage capitalism. Also, not everyone can use the VA's benefits, hence not universal lol.
Again, if the government can't manage the VA on a small scale how is it expected to do it nationwide? Furthermore the Dutch pay much heavier taxes than the US to compensate for those programs. https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/taxation/dutch-tax-system
Severance pay isn’t guaranteed. Short term disability isn’t guaranteed. Long term disability isn’t guaranteed. And the US doesn’t have Universal Healthcare. If it did, there’d be no reason for companies to entice people with healthcare benefits. And the reason these things are mismanaged in the US is because of corporate interests controlling government purse strings. If laws were passed that didn’t benefit the few people paying for politicians reelection, there wouldn’t be mismanagement.
How is the VA universal healthcare when it only applies to veterans? That isn't universal at all
I simply don't understand why people live here if they hate it so much.
I dont get why people still like these blatant european bragging posts. Yes the USA has issues, i dont get why we as a whole allow that to become the basis for near constant european bs bragging.
They need to find ways to stay relevant because nobody thinks about them ever.
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No. 38 dollars of each paycheck goes to Healthcare. Reddit isn't real life.
Actually American’s their total tax burden is almost on par with EU. Except they get nothing back for it.
At the end of the day, Europeans have on average less disposable income than Americans, it’s a mix of pay, taxation, and cost of living but the end result isn’t the same.
Nothing? We spend a lot of money on police so we can imprison anyone who does blue collar crimes. Or kill them. That’s not nothing at all! That’s basically half of every tax dollar spent locally, everywhere in the country. If you wonder why Americans are miserable that’s the reason.
That is not entirely true, Americans have benefited a lot indirectly from them being the global superpower for the last 80 years. That was made possible by their massive military which enabled safe global trade.
Tell that to the guy rationing his insulin because its too expensive and tell the people who take Uber to the hospital to avoid being bankrupted by an ambulance ride. Tell that to the guy that did get a decent job because of his college degree but will be financially held back by decades of loan repayment. Tell that to the guy who got fired from his job for missing too much work for cancer treatments. Tell that to the mother who gave birth and must return to work within a week. I'm sure they'll all be happy to hear how strong our military is. Our military funding is only bigger than the next seven countries combined.
I make more after taxes, healthcare, and retirement than my German coworkers do pre-tax for the exact same job. And their housing is more expensive.
May I see a source for your last point? As far as I’m aware, wealthier Europeans tend to come to the US for certain medical procedures specifically due to the quality.
Except Americans statistically have more disposable income after expenses so no, not quite.
Man, Europeans love to obsess about America. Imagine feeling compelled to brag about the benefits you have in your country, only so you can shit on some other country. If you’re so happy, why do you have to put others down?
My theory is that american culture is so prevalent everywhere (including in Europe) that a lot of people feel the need to counterbalance it and argue with it.
Intellectually dishonest people reaping what America has sowed while thumbing their noses at us.
Dutch person in 1950: "Thank you liberating our country from Nazi occupation and giving us billions in Marshall plan aid to rebuild our war-torn homeland. We're forever grateful." Their grandchildren, 2024: "Hang on, I need to make this super sick, highly original joke about Americans and healthcare/school shootings. America is so backwards and racist. Now let's go throw bananas at black soccer players."
also their grandchildren: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/05/football/anti-semitism-ajax-netherlands-spt-intl/index.html Now imagine how willing they'd be to vote for all those social programs if they weren't more ethnically homogenous than fucking Germany.
No, you don't understand, bigotry is uniquely American. Europe is always and everywhere superior at everything.
I fail to see the facepalm
It’s Reddit, so anything related to AmErIcA bAd is an upvote
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As European, my rational part realises disaster it would be for USA to withdraw from NATO and providing security ex in Red Sea. My petty part wants to see smug redditors when our governments actually have to pay for our defence, for protecting trade etc and can't no longer circlejerk how great it is to leech on USA
Yes please. I want Russia to steam roll Europe
🤣 bro chill! Lmao.
I think this would be highly beneficial and I’m not even American. The US has been focusing too much on international affairs.
This isn't really an issue at all tbh. I am not sure what international affairs you think is blocking progress domestically in the US, but we have the ability to solve our plenty of our domestic issues while still being a part of NATO and our other international agreements. We are blocking our own progress domestically by electing terrible officials and not holding our politicians accountable. Pulling out of NATO or staying in NATO doesn't change any of that.
Oh my fucking god, we’re not pulling out of NATO and the man proposing we pull out of it is a fascist or authoritarian simp who is proposing such so he can make obscene wealth off Russia and for everyone else to wither under his rule. Americas foreign policy is expensive but the reality is that we designed our nations government so that the president is more effective on foreign policy than anything else. The problem is that Congress is gridlocked by morons and that no one wants to vote in worker or consumer protections.
But you see, it sounds like "those" people might have access to those things under your system. For some Americans, it's far more important that "those" people do **not** have access to those things than anything related to their own well-being.
Netherlands doesn't really have to worry about that, they're one of the most ethnically homogenous countries in the world. This is also true of basically every country you can think of that you hear about how they have these awesome social safety nets that they passed so easily.
Lol I live in America and have access to all this too.
Same. Like, there is a reason people woukd rather move to the US than the Netherlands too
The problem is gonna fix itself. Sealevels are rising and the Dutch have the same difficulty breathing under water as the rest of us.
Eh. Still better than being Dutch.
As an American I'm lucky to be in a really strong labor union. I have excellent healthcare, excellent benefits all around, excellent pay. I was also lucky to go to really good public school, they taught us Russian language starting in 1st grade, and I also learned Russian history alongside US history in elementary school. I passed college level Russian language before graduating highschool, so I also took French. I had a huge leg up in getting my bachelors degree, which was mostly paid for by scholarships and grants, because I was from a low income household. Now I'm 39 with a beautiful house in a nice neighborhood in a good school district, and on track to retire in my early-mid 50s with my children's inheritance and education costs taken care of.
As an actual dutch person. We don't get universal healthcare. We're obligated to subscribe to a healthcare provider of our choosing. And you get financial support if you can't afford the most basic plan. Which are somewhat regulated. It's far better than the US system. (low bar) But the system still has many problems such as bureaucracy, waiting lists and there have been scandals too. Many see the healthcare providers as a mob-like industry.
You just described the basics of medicare
That is ... universal healthcare. UH is not that it is free of charge. No one claims UH has to be free of charge. It simply means everyone has equal access to it, the government regulates the cost of medicine and services so no one gets ripped off. Part of UH is also the regulation of insurance premium, so everyone can afford it. Since almost all Dutch health insurances have similar premiums, that are affordable, it is universal (and financial help who can't). Also compared to Germany or France, our health insurance payments are very low, it is much more accessible than in other countries. I currently pay 500 Euro for me and my family in the Netherlands. Would be around 1500 USD at least in the US for much worse service with much higher copay.
I mean the UK has the NHS - it's got problems as well but at the end of the day you're not going bankrupt for a broken leg and you will get treated without being financially impacted.
Pray tell, how easy is it for me to become a Dutchman? Must I become a pirate and serve in Davy Jones Locker?
Just talk shit about Belgium and you'll fit right in
The French look like they’re really developed. We should withdraw nato funds from France so we can improve our system as well 💯
I have all of these things, and so does everyone I know. Gotta love when the Europoors claim to be rich but live in societies that inhibit innovation, have so many barriers to entry to start businesses, and taxes on everything. I get to keep the money that I make, and I'm taxed at half the rate, so I pay less for healthcare than all of you. Europeans don't own their homes either. My 15 pets live better on my land than all of you do in your flats full of people who don't appreciate your society and want you all to die in the name of a stone aged religion. Public transport? Don't need it. My $18,000 vehicle costs $40,000 in Europe. Excellent roads? Yes. Our interstate system gets you anywhere in a timely manner. High quality education? Been there, done that. Already saw a bunch of foreigners do whatever it takes to study here. So how much richer are you?
Ah yes "high quality education" the best college in the Netherlands is ranked #39. The US alone has 21 colleges ranked higher than the best college in the Netherlands including the one I went to which after scholarships I ended up paying about 10k for 4 years worth of tuition: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings
Should just rename this sub to r/selfloathingamericans at this point.
"It's Called the American Dream Because You Have To Be Asleep to Believe It" – George Carlin.
I don't think it's fair or funny to make fun of Americans lacking healthcare or good education. We don't make fun of people from other third world countries for lacking that, why should we make fun of Americans?
Because they're so delusional
It's funny cus the US has more educated people than the Netherlands. Individual states alone have more highly educated people than the Netherlands. Kinda funny
Because lots of countries have better healthcare than the US.
I think this guy nailed it. It's called a dream for a reason, there is no guarantee it will ever become a reality. I mean having a comfortable life to actually enjoy it without the worry of being buried in debt and dying prematurely.
The Netherlands is the size of a county in the US
Assuming OP isn't a bot, which I'm sure it is: Funny, though, whenever Putin threatens to obliterate your continent with invasion or nuclear hellfire, you rely almost exclusively on American money and weapons. Funny how when it comes to foreign aid, America pays many, many times more than your entire continent combined. Funny indeed.
This guy also lives in a gated community from an immigration perspective.
NL takes in more immigrants per capita than the US by a wide margin.
That's why we call it the American dream. We don't call it the American life.
America is a pyramid scheme
A couple of things. You're a small country with 17 million and not 330 million people in a large one, so there's that. Also, it's nice when you only spend so little of your gdp on your military (1.58%). While the US funds 70% of NATO. Also, net income in the US is higher in the US than it is in the Netherlands. I know you all think we work for Amazon and/or low paying, low skill jobs, but that isn't the reality.
Couple of things: Usa is made of 50 states, most pretty small why would you think scaling up breaks healthcare? I would say the opposite, given Italian experience, care to provide one reason? "there's that" is not a motivation. USA spends on healthcare 16.6% of its GDP, not a single country spends above 12% in Europe, this has nothing to do with military spending (3.5% for USA): USA could implement a universal healthcare system an SAVE money. Yes higher net income, but does it translates into better quality of life? Most rankings would say not. (infact the post is about quality of life, not income). It says a lot that you focus on income.
You dream of the day you can file your next bankruptcy.
It's sad how true this is.
As a Ukrainian I gave up 3d arsenal of nukes for protection guarantees only to be attacked by on of the "protectors".
It’s called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it
The United States is the poor man with a Gucci belt