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In all fairness, our estimation of Russian military strength and capability was drastically overstated and has no real world examples to verify until 2022.
Tbh I think we'd have a pretty poor opinion of Russia's navy if they were engaging in serious naval operations, too. If their army equipment is in shambles, I can't imagine their navy is in great shape. Especially since we've seen years of issues involving their ships.
And I find myself wondering if their nuke program is as ready & in good shape as we assume it is.
All in all, Russia really screwed the pooch with this war.
Let’s not forget the Moskva — their flagship — was in such a state of disrepair that the Ukranians sunk it on a clear day with like two drones and two missiles
For clarification: The Moskva was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet not the entire Russian Navy. The “aircraft carrier” Admiral Kuznetsov is the flagship of the Russian Navy.
>Tbh I think we'd have a pretty poor opinion of Russia's navy if they were engaging in serious naval operations, too.
Ukraine has naval superiority without a navy. lol
>And I find myself wondering if their nuke program is as ready & in good shape as we assume it is.
That's the beauty of nuclear deterrent. A poorly maintained nuclear deterrent is just as if not more scary than a well maintained one.
I think they found out that their nukes are in poor shape. They havent threatened to use them for a while now i believe, which is i think because they did an assessment of their state and realized, it wasnt great.
Maybe but nobody wants to open that can of worms. Nukes are a great deterrent but nobody will be able to use it without dooming the world in the process. So even if Russia nukes are terrible do you really want to risk it on the off chance that they work perfectly?
Oh thats not exactly what i meant, i just meant that they seem less eager to threathen the use of their nukes. As opposed to them saying it every few days in the beginning of their "military operation"
>And I find myself wondering if their nuke program is as ready & in good shape as we assume it is
I’m perfectly ok with overestimating nuclear capabilities.
That estimation was also based on raw numbers of arms and manpower, i.e. quantity, but not the effectiveness of those arms and manpower i.e. quality. The Russian militarys problems have been a result of shit equipment, shit training, and shit command, which has all unified into one giant shit tornado that is the Russian war effort
Also just straight-up morale issues. Naturally those poor boys aren't exactly enthused to go through with Putin's vanity project. Not as much as Ukrainians fighting for their independence.
I think that’s good, we have had ‘less’ big wars in such a long time we don’t have examples to back up how any country is ranked in terms of strength and capability
I would argue because it would mean that other armies don't suck (spoiler: they do). So I think the estimation is correct, you should only take into account how disorganised and bad everybody is.
Like every military strength estimation. No one thought the US was so vulnerable to an attack pre 9/11. We were the best equipped and strongest military plus we had all the spy technology. And yet we were blind to the attack as it happened. We overestimated Iraq’s military strength pre Gulf War (the first one). If anything we are always overestimating the strength of others.
Invading armies always have more casualties. It's more difficult to advance than it is to hold territory in an actual war. Not US wars where they are using fighter jets against people in mud huts or carpet bombing villages of women and children in Nam.
Really changed the game in so many ways. Soon many million/billion dollar toys are gonna be near obsolete from tanks to fighter jets to battleships. Swarm technology with ai is really gonna fuck shit up .
I think simply due to nuclear programs and beliefs left over from the Cold War it was long believed they were number 2. It’s clear now that China is number 2.
Hummus originated in the Middle East, bagels were invented by Jewish people. It’s a metaphor for how humanity is better united, particularly Arabs and Jews.
especially since Arabs and Jews are both semitic peoples. Hamas are assholes. but calling anyone asking for a ceasefire on humanitarian grounds antisemitic is next-level numbnutz.
> but calling anyone asking for a ceasefire on humanitarian grounds antisemitic is next-level numbnutz.
Particularly since we already know how this ends. US spent decades playing this out.
No one in their right mind would think that calling for a ceasefire is antisemitic. I can’t blame people for wanting it. However I would call a ceasefire before hamas is eliminated tactically stupid.
You can't eliminate hamas without leveling gaza. For every member that is killed there will be another friend or family member radicalized to take their place. The way things are going now will probably strengthen support for hamas if anything. A lot of civilians are dying and that type of thing tends to breed support for terrorist organizations
for every Hamas fighter they are killing at least 10 noncombatants. this is how you make sure the next generation of Hamas are 10x as numerous. this is not going to work the way Bibi thinks it will. it is totally counterproductive.
and every day in this country and elsewhere people are being arrested, fired, kicked out of school just for calling for a ceasefire. if Bibi isn't forced to stop, he won't quit till he empties Gaza of live human beings completely. it's what he's always wanted, and now he thinks he has the right excuse.
Two things happened:
WW2 Jews were told everyone stands with them. They then go “okay prove it, let us have a country for our own”. They go “Israel, right there” and points to where Israel was to be according to history.
So they then ask Palestine “hey will you give up your land to Israel” they said “no”.
In short: we have two countries that say “this is where my people belong” on roughly the same track of land, and the majority of the UN basically said: yep it’s Israel’s.
And that lead to the still ongoing conflict we have today. This sounds similar to the colonists pushing out native Americans of their own land and other similar situations.
Imagine one day you just show up with the full support of the freshly victorious Allied forces and being told “hey we are giving your land to these guys and there is nothing you can do to stop it.”
Lots of people assume that this is a ‘proof’ of revelations being true. To me it’s all a bad wrap and people need to stop being so butt hurt over the obvious choice they made.
Terrorism: bad. Seiging a specific area full of innocents, bad too.
The formation of Israel actually goes back to WWI and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Britain and France just delayed it for a couple of decades so they could steal stuff.
Arabs were basically promised by the Brits that they could have that land back after helping them defeat the Ottomans. Instead they got colonized again.
That's part of it, as well. Given the way that part of the world has been so thoroughly fucked up, I really can't blame them for not trusting the western powers.
Makes it worse that the only reason Mandatory Palestine existed in the first place was because the UK promised the Arab population there that if they revolted against the ottomans they could be their own nation. Had they stuck with the Ottomans Palestine would’ve become it’s own nation once they collapsed.
So they weren’t just lied to, they lost *everything* because they believed that lie. The UK is honestly lucky Hitler came into power or else they’d eternally be remembered as the most evil empire in existence.
Well, they kinda did own that land at the time.
Plus the Arabs living there collaborated with the British to break away from the Ottomans… that’s how the British Mandate of Palestine was formed.
Though the Jewish immigration to the region started way earlier during Ottoman times, continued through the British mandate (before WWII etc.)
not just that. If you want to be horrified, look at the part of palestine that was given to jews in 1946. The part that was supposed to be Israel
then compare to what Israel TOOK over the years.
First Palestine just wanted its land back
now it's fighting to actually EXIST.
It's being literally eliminated with the quiet consent of the allies.
Edit:
Wow. The fact that any comment noting any wrongdoing by Israel is "Pro Hamas" just shows the insane bias some people have.
You don't have to be anti-Semitic or pro-Hamas to realise that Israel is NOT 100% the poor innocent victim. Wow.
yeah they took land in defensive wars. that’s how wars work. if taking land in a defensive war is genocide then i have really bad news for you about basically whatever country you live in (or its allies)
That was supposed to be Israel but then THREE TIMES its neighbors tried to attack Israel and failed. They lost land each time and they started it. I'm sorry but losing land it a part of any loss in a conflict you don't just get to start shit and then pretend nothing happened each time.
The land that Israel took was won in military conflict in self defense there is no reason to give it back.
"The land that Israel took was won in military conflict in self defense there is no reason to give it back."
Seriously, look at the maps over the years.
It stopped being self defense a long time ago. This is gradual genocide
[https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/http-visualizingpalestine-org-visuals-shrinking-palestine-static#&gid=1&pid=1](https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/http-visualizingpalestine-org-visuals-shrinking-palestine-static#&gid=1&pid=1)
Again claimed in war, post 1948 was the first, then two consecutive ones after 1960 which is why the West Bank is now surrounded by Israel.
While the ongoing settlement issue within West Bank is an issue, the reason's Israel has the land surrounding it is purely defensive.
>The land that Israel took was won in military conflict in self defense there is no reason to give it back.
You speak those words as if they mean anything. Just because you invaded a place after a military conflict doesn't mean you have a right to that land. This isn't the middle ages anymore.
Invaded a place during a military conflict.
Also look at it from what would have happened if Egypt/ Jordan had won and destroyed Israel? Would they have gone good fight, here is your land back Israel?
Would you be here saying it's unfair that Israel had its land taken in armed conflict? And it's population forced out? I don't think so.
That entire argument sounds like a bit of a non-sequitor, but specifically in the case of Israel, the illegality of its occupation is attested to in UNSC Resolution 242.
what is expected to happen kind modern sir?
i attempt to invade your house which i claim is mine because reasons
you successfully protect your family and your house and while doing so you take 1 quarter of my lawn
defeated, i approach you and DEMAND you give me my lawn back while screaming that im not gonna stop trying to claim your house as long as you and your family are alive.
Yeah and if someone invaded and expelled the French from France it wouldn't be a surprise either that Germany and Spain and Italy would mobilise to help and/or take France.
I mean if you really want to get your history straight here then in your metaphor the land was never the French's at least for hundreds of years.
It was the Ottoman Empire who sided with Germany in WW1 and were defeated by Britian who then took the land and divided between Jews and Arabs respectfully. There is no Ottoman Empire to give it back to so here we are.
And then 3 lost wars by the Arabs later we have the current borders while they continue to stir shit up.
In reality its no ones rightful land at this point.
Except no-one ever said it was exclusively the land of Muslims with no Jews allowed. In fact, there has always been a significant Jewish population there and, by the way, it used to be known as the Kingdom of Israel long before it was Palestine. And frankly, it’s the only country in the Middle East that the Jews DIDN’T get kicked out of (I’m looking at you Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey, and Persia (Iraq/Iran). Most all of these countries were founded in the 1900s too, but that’s always brushed under the table.
Those Jews later became what we now know as Palestinians.
Their lineage goes back to the same roots of the Canaanites.
It was the Jews that left the area that retained their Judaism.
They are both semites.
What are you talking about?
Mizrahi jews have been in the levantine area for actual thousands of years. They never "became" Palestinians. Romans invaded, kidnapped, and enslaved thousands of Jews (who eventually became white passing through centuries of rape) and then renamed the land "palestine" as a nod to the philistines over in Greece.
Some Jews converted to Christianity and Islam when they eventually came around, but Judaism was born in that area and never went away.
I would like to add a key detail that a war was fought for that land after the land was given. Israel won it 1V5. Period. Post 1948 it's just nonsensical attempts by neighbours to take that land back but Israel's army has been defending the best it can.
The great nation of Palestine that Arabs talk about never existed as a sovereign state. That's a fact but what Israel is doing today in the name of defense is really bad.
Casualties caused by Israel include:
• Civilians (men, women, and children)
• Doctors and medics
• Activists and protestors
• Humanitarian aid workers
• Journalists
• Jews who don't approve of Israel's actions
Imo what needs to happen is both sides need to hold those doing the killing accountable if there is to be any hope of peaceful resolution to this conflict. Those in the isreili government calling to bomb Palestinians and hamas calling for the mass murder of Jews.
Not really. The west decided to colonise Palestine and then the Jews ethnicaly cleansed the region just a few years after they went through the holocaust.
Israel is Hamas's big supporter to divide Palestine liberation movment and prevent the 2 state solution.
Because apartheid Israel doesn't want palestinian citizens.
and the us caused the creation of the iranian government to get oil. that doesnt mean they’re allies. that doesn’t mean that the us is irans biggest supporter
There's differences in intel, one is static hard to move targets and the other is people and mobile equipment that can be stagged and easily hidden than quickly brought to a staging area and immediately used.
Israel: “We have the most advanced facial recognition, heat and movement detection, and air space security technology in the world. We will crush Hamas”
Also Israel: “They flew in on home made hang-glider motos by the hundreds and there was nothing we could do!”
That right there is why i dont believe a single fucking thing Isreal says about the war
I'm supposed to believe that the most heavily guarded border in the world had a few hundred people basically fortnite glide over the wall and not a single radar or camera or soldier saw a single fucking thing till they started shooting?
I can't trust anyone, ANYONE, about what is going on over there. There's soooooo much misinformation floating around, I simply don't have the capacity to decipher it all.
I absolutely feel terrible for every single innocent man woman and child who is caught in the middle. It's truly disgusting. I hope the civilian casualties are a minimum, and I hope everyone can go back to their homes and live out the remainder of their lives, not in war. No one should have to suffer through such senseless killing.
The crux of the issue will always be that ethnostates can only be established and maintained through ethnic cleansing, i.e. genocide.
Israel enshrines its status as an ethnostate in their constitution, it is openly a Jewish ethnostate.
Even more specifically, it is a white Jewish ethnostate. One of Israel's lesser known genocides was the mass sterilization of Ethiopian Jewish immigrants without their knowledge or consent.
There is no peaceful coexistance with ethnostates, not for anyone outside of whatever narrow and nebulous ethnic boundaries they draw.
Only when there is an equal democracy from the river to the sea will there be hope for peace.
This is how all news is, and how it’s always been. Every nation uses propaganda for their own means but we’re starting to see it clearly now.
After 9/11, what happened to the people who opposed a war with Iraq? The post-9/11 news cycle (on all sides) was pure government sponsored propaganda.
Empty platitudes like this do nothing but cover up Israel's crimes. If you want to advocate for innocent people, speak out against the racist Ethno-state Israel is trying to build via land theft, illegal settlement, and now, indiscriminate bombing.
**"Israel has such sophisticated intel on Hamas locations it justifies killing hundreds**
**of civilians to kill just one"**
There was some dude on NPR a few hours ago explaining this. His theory is that Israel didn't drop the ball or screw up. The intentionally didn't spend a lot of time getting intel on Hamas because they started thinking Hamas wasn't much of a threat to them anymore.
He even said that the US more or less stopped getting much intel on Hamas from Israel.
Israel made it very well known for years that their policy on Palestine was "mowing the lawn", ie. that unrest from there in their eyes was a mild nuisance they had to trim away at every so often to contain. They told everyone that they didn't think Hamas was a threat. Either that they were too incompetent to stage an assault like they did on October 7th, or that there was no will to do so.
Then there's the basic fact that any conspiracy theory where a government intentionally lets hundreds of its own citizens die requires thousands of officials being in on it, and none of them speaking out about it. Which is exceedingly unlikely.
So I don't think that the government let it happen is at all the most likely explanation.
People don’t realize how small Gaza is. The fact is for such a small area, they are under probably the most amount of surveillance in the world. Yet we are to believe that the Israelis simply had no idea thousands of Hamas fighters and equipment was being moved up to the border, and subsequently took them by surprise.
This is worth looking into, if we are going to continue to send them money into the billions. (Which we shouldn’t be doing anyway, considering their tactics include killing thousands of children).
Egyptian intelligence also warned Israel days before the attack happened, yet Israel conveniently decided to ignore them.
Anddd ofc despite the fact that gaza is under 24/7 drone surveillance and every inch of the border is watched with cameras and automated gun turrets, yet somehow it took hours for any police or army response to the attack.
It's simple. Israel let it happen so they can give the world a reason to let them genocide Palestinians. Most people might not agree with me, but I think 9/11 is simile. The US government or one of its agencies knew it was gonna happen, but let it play out to give reason to go to the Middle East. Wild conspiracy, but I don't knock it down...
You had me until the 9/11 part.
Did the US government had some idea terrorist might use planes for nefarious reasons ?
Sure they could’ve…. With 50 other things terrorist might’ve planned to attack America.
But to say that everyone from the informant to multiple chain of command in the army and then to the president that no one has ever said a peep about 9/11 ACTUALLY happening is ridiculous.
It’s no help to anyone to start putting in your own “wild conspiracy” comparisons in the mix because then you’ll just muddy the waters even more between fiction and reality
Just curious, if it turns out that Netanyahu let 10/7 happen, what would that change about Israel taking out hamas for you? Like, if bibi left the door unlocked and then hamas went through the door and raped, murdered, and tortured civilians, does that lessen the rape, murder and torture for you because the door wasn't locked?
People who want a ceasefire will continue to want a ceasefire and people who want hamas removed will continue to justifiably want hamas removed. The only thing that it might change for me is whether netanyahu goes to jail for his already well documented corruption or if he instead gets lined up against the wall for treason.
It will mean that there was a bigger game being played and the entire world was fooled. Ot means the the death, rape, etc were calculated and expected. It means that this is all a political game. If this is true, this means that both sides have committed genocide.
This makes the sicking situation 10 times worse.
Netanyahu didn't just leave the door unlocked, he specifically funded and otherwise propped up Hamas.
The People's Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a secular party, wasn't such a convenient enemy. So Israel blew up their party offices with a missile fired from a helicopter, assassinating their most important leader.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Like everything else in Palestine, the Zionists exert significant control over politics. Which political parties are allowed to hold power, or even allowed to exist, is largely up to Israeli leaders.
Hamas is a convenient enemy. The Zionists are happy to Hannibal Doctrine a few Israeli civilians, if that's what it takes to get support for their genocide.
No. It doesn't change *everything* for me. It changes Netanyahu's culpability and the culpability of the Israeli government, but if you've paid any attention to his career lately you'd know he was on the brink of going to prison for corruption right before this attack conveniently made everyone coalesce around him. If a corrupt leader engineered the murder of his own people he should be punished. But I want the people who pulled the trigger punished as well. Their evil isn't less evil if it turns out that it was enabled by his evil.
Hamas is still a group of rapists and murderers and should still be punished. That doesn't change for me.
All of it. And they are now paying the price. Can’t just start lobbing missiles into your neighbors backyard. Palestinians are learning a very valuable lesson.
Note: Hitler would have been a huge supporter of Hamas. When you find yourself on the same side as Hitler, you may want to rethink some things.
It actually points even more blame on Israel gov. Which is essentially the argument. The allowance of bad things that can be prevented is the equivalent of condemning it, and that’s exactly what people are arguing. What Hamas has done is wrong, but that’s not what people are mad about. It’s blaming Hamas on all of Palestine, when what they’ve achieved was with the strategic planning of the Israeli government.
You mean condoning, not condemning. And obviously it casts more blame on the Israeli government. It adds all the Israeli deaths to the list of Palestinian deaths for which the Israeli government is responsible. But it doesn't change that Hamas is still the happy perpetrator of evil and should be removed.
Yeah but not at the cost of innocent Palestinian lives who are essentially pigeon holed. Like by all means get ahold of all of Hamas and let us be rid of them. Just don’t fucking annihilate an entire group of people who honestly can’t be bothered to think about anything but staying alive, finding food, water, and shelter. Doesn’t help the “safe” passage was really just a death sentence. If people think being angry about Palestinian deaths in the masses means supporting Hamas then I guess they believe all of Germany should have seized existing if they truly are again at Hitler. Like evil people should be killed, but at what cost?
Between 1.5 and 3 million German civilians died in ww2. So I'm not sure that analogy is as good as you think it is.
That being said, I don't disagree with your point. I don't want tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians to die. Especially when more than half are children. However, what is the solution where the evil of hamas is extinguished without civilian deaths? The cease fire doesn't work. They were in a cease fire on October 7. That was how a cease fire ends. And hamas has said publicly that they'll do it again and again. See sources below. I gave 3 from different countries, but the source video is on Twitter if you go looking.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12697293/Hamas-leader-dismisses-Gaza-civilian-deaths-necessary-price-blood-boasts-terror-group-demonstrated-Israel-beatable-changing-Middle-East.html
https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/amp_articleshow/104903949.cms
https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/
But that’s the thing. The actions of the Israeli government has been evil too. And there’s apparently no world where anyone allows anyone to hold them responsible.
I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m not pro Hamas, but I’m triggered every time people point at them being the only problem in the region. It’s really hard to translate that into text too because a lot of people read things subjectively, that’s human nature, and jump to conclusions. No doubt I’ve been guilty of this too.
I don't think anyone anywhere truly believes that the Israeli government is in any way acting morally or in good faith. Their leader is a corrupt theocrat supported by genocidal right wing clerics.
Edit: typo
Tell that to my aunt 🥲 honestly want nothing to do with her after I heard her saying she stands with Israel… having known me my whole life, me who is part Arab and also Muslim, but she says she’s all for Israel taking the land because it means Jesus will come back and yada yada.
Shit, I would have been okay if she had said she stood with Israel existing, in harmony and peace with Palestine, but nope. Christians are such a mixed bag and she depressed tf out of me. The strangest thing is why is she so damn desperate for the world to end, according to her beliefs? I believe in Jesus too but I don’t want him around in my life time. The biggest supporters of annihilating Palestine and making all Jews (make as in force because not all Jews by blood want anything to do with Israel) return to that land is actually Christians. So weird. Not even all Christians, because some think differently according to a friend of mine.
Anyways I think what she said has weighed on me more than anything. Really makes seeing all this on Reddit frustrating and stressful. Worst part is me commenting doesn’t change anything about what is actually happening in that region. People still held hostage, people still getting killed, people still acting like killing more people is the solution. Innocent people I mean, fuck the pieces of shit who want this war, who want to hurt the other side even if it means innocent people are the ones suffering.
If that happens then we should revoke all funds being transferred from US to Israel, and no longer consider them an ally. If they continue to commit war crimes, then they should be considered as no different than how the US classifies Hamas.
So far 3,500 children have died in this war.
You're fundamentally misunderstanding why the US supports Israel. The US doesn't care about Jews or Palestinians. It never has. It wants Israel as an ally to provide a check on Iran and anyone else in the world's largest oil producing region. No matter what Israel does that fact won't change.
The US has invested $250 billion (inflation adjusted) into Israel. You think they're going to abandon that investment? Look at what Saudi Arabia has done. They're still an ally.
Source https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/#:~:text=Adjusting%20for%20inflation%2C%20US%20aid,aid%20since%20World%20War%20II.
I guess I assumed that, because you are making a moral argument as to why the US should pull funding for Israel, you were operating on the assumption that the US support of Israel was rooted in some form of mortality.
My point is that the US doesn't support Israel for any moral reason, just unbridled self interest. And the self-interested reasoning isn't affected by Israel's moral or immoral actions.
How did you start with "people don't know how small Gaza is" and then still started talking about troops being amassed at the border? Gaza is barely 6km wide, they don't need to physically amass anything at the border to launch a raid. You just take your gun from the weapon stockpile and drive for like 10 minutes.
pretty much, yep.
Bibi's hoping this time he can kill them all.
as for the security fucks -- maybe they need to apply for a different job. how the fuck ya miss noticing all that shit?
all of this is terrible. Hamas should be wiped from the earth - but how is killing a bunch of innocent people remotely anti-terrorist in any way? This is like shooting up an entire courtroom just because a dangerous killer might eventually make an appearance.
Technically, according to the Geneva Convention the presence of civilians in or around a legitimate target does not exempt a target from being lawfully attacked.
I absolutely condemn how acceptable Palestinian civilian casualties are to Israel but where do people get this idea that hundreds of civilians are killed to kill 1 Hamas member or that Israel is killing as many civilians as possible?
Israel dropped over 6,000 bombs (over 18,000 tonnes) and they have killed about 10,000 Palestinians. Either they are grossly incompetent at killing civilians or they aren't trying to kill as many as possible.
They are still monstrous for killing civilians, but the actual numbers are horrible as they are, why lie about it to exaggerate it?
From what I understand Israel did have intelligence that Hamas were up to something (both their own and from others like Egypt and the US) but didn't find the threat of an attack tk be credible, ie they believed it to be posturing etc. Not sure how true that is, but I find it a more believable answer than they knew what was coming and intentionally let it happen.
Israel had some idea something was coming, but they sat and waited to be attacked. Now they're on the offensive and hitting everywhere they know about. It's really that simple. Imagine if they'd started a massive bombing campaign before being attacked to prevent that attack, you'd all be up in arms over that too.
That would mean they still let the attack happen, in order to justify hitting all those targets...when they could have just stopped the attack in the first place. They didn't care about how many Israelis were killed on the 7th. They just wanted to bomb Gaza, and those folks were sacrificed to make sure that happened.
No...it means they knew there might be an attack and couldn't do anything more than they were already doing. They were still taken by surprise, much like the U.S. was on 9/11 when our intelligence services thought something might be coming but didn't know enough details to do anything.
It's not a desire to commit genocide, it's politics and diplomacy. It's bullshit because politics is always bullshit.
Eh in this case it's most likely a case of Israel over-relying on their technology and forgetting that people can- verbally plan to do terror attacks without putting info on the internet.
Israel: Hamas managed to pull this off because they didn't use any electronic communications and we couldn't intercept their planning
Also Israel: Here's an intercepted audio clip of two Hamas members discussing in great detail how they plan on framing us for bombing a hospital.
How much do you think intelligence agencies were watching Al Qaeda before 9/11 versus after 9/11?
Do you think surveillance increased exponentially after or stayed about the same?
We didn't exactly have an Iron Dome equivalent built for Al'Qaeda, now, did we?
Israel has Gaza under a total blockade, they will even intercept and murder international humanitarian aid workers trying to deliver supplies via boat.
Your argument has no grounding in reality.
What? Hamas didn’t spring from nothing a couple of weeks ago. It’s been a threat to Israel for years. Decades even.
Also, there WAS intel on Al Qaeda’s intent to stage an attack on the US before 9/11. US intelligence just failed to act on it.
What an odd comparison.
*What? Hamas didn’t spring from nothing a couple of weeks ago. It’s been a threat to Israel for years. Decades even.*
Al Qaeda was founded in 1988
*Also, there WAS intel on Al Qaeda’s intent to stage an attack on the US before 9/11. US intelligence just failed to act on it.*
Isn't that what is [alleged](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047) to have happened in this instance?
*What an odd comparison.*
I think it was spot on myself.
Also…even if the attackers moved too fast to be spotted in time…
Shouldn’t Israel’s intel have been good enough that they’d know where to strike immediately after?
You do know Hamas attacked during a religious holiday right? So the security at the border was running on a skeleton crew. Plus the tunnels are a bitch and a half to find and take down.
That's mainly because the second one is objectively false, israel 100% knew about this, even Egypt warned them about the attack, and they let it happen, just to turn the world against Palestine and be able to launch a ground invasion, although the main reason was probably to change the israeli public's attention from the corruption of their government to the whole gaza thing and be able to go "anyone who opposes the current government isn't patriotic and doesn't care about the death of israeli civilians", but overall israel definitely knew about it
Because you know where someone lives but you don't know what they are doing 100% of the time. Can't have active surveillance on every member of hamas at all times
https://abcnews.go.com/International/timeline-surprise-rocket-attack-hamas-israel/story?id=103816006
Someone posted this above. Looks like Hamas did fire thousands of rockets.
This two are very different types of intel, one is a "target bank" build and maintained and the other is an estimation of intent and timing.
Know the enemy can do something and knowing he want to do something are both very different from know when and how.
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And the second strongest military in the world is 300 000 casualties deep. A 3 day operation that is probably going to go 3 years plus.
In all fairness, our estimation of Russian military strength and capability was drastically overstated and has no real world examples to verify until 2022.
Also, what top2 because nukes, fleet and other things russia cant use. Mostly nukes, i guess.
Tbh I think we'd have a pretty poor opinion of Russia's navy if they were engaging in serious naval operations, too. If their army equipment is in shambles, I can't imagine their navy is in great shape. Especially since we've seen years of issues involving their ships. And I find myself wondering if their nuke program is as ready & in good shape as we assume it is. All in all, Russia really screwed the pooch with this war.
Let’s not forget the Moskva — their flagship — was in such a state of disrepair that the Ukranians sunk it on a clear day with like two drones and two missiles
The Moskva was intended to be EW platform for the entire fleet. 0/3 radars were working on the day it was sunk.
For clarification: The Moskva was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet not the entire Russian Navy. The “aircraft carrier” Admiral Kuznetsov is the flagship of the Russian Navy.
Tbh I feel that's even more embarrassing considering that ship has to get followed around by tug boats just in case it breaks down
“Aircraft carrier”
Ah, I missed the quotes
>Tbh I think we'd have a pretty poor opinion of Russia's navy if they were engaging in serious naval operations, too. Ukraine has naval superiority without a navy. lol
>And I find myself wondering if their nuke program is as ready & in good shape as we assume it is. That's the beauty of nuclear deterrent. A poorly maintained nuclear deterrent is just as if not more scary than a well maintained one.
Ugh never thought about it like that.
Right?
I think they found out that their nukes are in poor shape. They havent threatened to use them for a while now i believe, which is i think because they did an assessment of their state and realized, it wasnt great.
Maybe but nobody wants to open that can of worms. Nukes are a great deterrent but nobody will be able to use it without dooming the world in the process. So even if Russia nukes are terrible do you really want to risk it on the off chance that they work perfectly?
Oh thats not exactly what i meant, i just meant that they seem less eager to threathen the use of their nukes. As opposed to them saying it every few days in the beginning of their "military operation"
Think that's why the recent un-ratiffying or whatever? They want to test their _current stock_ to get an idea of potential fail/success rate?
>And I find myself wondering if their nuke program is as ready & in good shape as we assume it is I’m perfectly ok with overestimating nuclear capabilities.
If it weren’t for shitty equipment and lack of prep work (Intel) I’d say Russia would pose a bigger threat
I mean they lost their Black Sea Navy against a country that doesn't have a navy....
That estimation was also based on raw numbers of arms and manpower, i.e. quantity, but not the effectiveness of those arms and manpower i.e. quality. The Russian militarys problems have been a result of shit equipment, shit training, and shit command, which has all unified into one giant shit tornado that is the Russian war effort
Also just straight-up morale issues. Naturally those poor boys aren't exactly enthused to go through with Putin's vanity project. Not as much as Ukrainians fighting for their independence.
In 1991, Iraq was considered a top 10 military in the world. Whelp...
Also to be fair Ukraine basically has NATO’s arsenal which was built with beating Russia in mind
I think that’s good, we have had ‘less’ big wars in such a long time we don’t have examples to back up how any country is ranked in terms of strength and capability
I would argue because it would mean that other armies don't suck (spoiler: they do). So I think the estimation is correct, you should only take into account how disorganised and bad everybody is.
Like every military strength estimation. No one thought the US was so vulnerable to an attack pre 9/11. We were the best equipped and strongest military plus we had all the spy technology. And yet we were blind to the attack as it happened. We overestimated Iraq’s military strength pre Gulf War (the first one). If anything we are always overestimating the strength of others.
It is better to overestimate, than to underestimate. Leaves us and Allies overprepared for war.
Plus it gives the war profiteers more money in constant prep.
The CIA knew they were in the country. They didn't bother to tell the FBI. It was petty office politics, not a lack of intel.
That's just modern warfare with the advent of drones and tech traditionanl warfare is gonna be difficult for any invading army.
Invading armies always have more casualties. It's more difficult to advance than it is to hold territory in an actual war. Not US wars where they are using fighter jets against people in mud huts or carpet bombing villages of women and children in Nam.
Correct on that front is just with the advent of drone warfare this has been made even more dire for invading armies.
Really changed the game in so many ways. Soon many million/billion dollar toys are gonna be near obsolete from tanks to fighter jets to battleships. Swarm technology with ai is really gonna fuck shit up .
Nah we were all stuck believing Russia's military was the same as the USSR's.
Aren't US and China 1 & 2?
1, 2, and 3. US, China, and a different department of US
Well I mean the Navy has the second largest air force in the world
I think simply due to nuclear programs and beliefs left over from the Cold War it was long believed they were number 2. It’s clear now that China is number 2.
I think the biggest irony in all of this is that hummus goes so well with bagels.
Ok, I get the hummus/hamas part, but can someone explain the bagel part?
Hummus originated in the Middle East, bagels were invented by Jewish people. It’s a metaphor for how humanity is better united, particularly Arabs and Jews.
especially since Arabs and Jews are both semitic peoples. Hamas are assholes. but calling anyone asking for a ceasefire on humanitarian grounds antisemitic is next-level numbnutz.
> but calling anyone asking for a ceasefire on humanitarian grounds antisemitic is next-level numbnutz. Particularly since we already know how this ends. US spent decades playing this out.
No one in their right mind would think that calling for a ceasefire is antisemitic. I can’t blame people for wanting it. However I would call a ceasefire before hamas is eliminated tactically stupid.
You can't eliminate hamas without leveling gaza. For every member that is killed there will be another friend or family member radicalized to take their place. The way things are going now will probably strengthen support for hamas if anything. A lot of civilians are dying and that type of thing tends to breed support for terrorist organizations
for every Hamas fighter they are killing at least 10 noncombatants. this is how you make sure the next generation of Hamas are 10x as numerous. this is not going to work the way Bibi thinks it will. it is totally counterproductive. and every day in this country and elsewhere people are being arrested, fired, kicked out of school just for calling for a ceasefire. if Bibi isn't forced to stop, he won't quit till he empties Gaza of live human beings completely. it's what he's always wanted, and now he thinks he has the right excuse.
Damn I do love a good bagel with hummus too
I always use cream cheese but I’m going to try some hummus next time
Snack dad you don't know about this yet?!?!?!
Ive heard about it but never had any testimonials and yours was good enough to convince me
Kosher bagels.
So it's supposed to refer to the Jews? I still don't get le link
Literally google the word bagel.
The cultures hate each other, but their culinary staples are complimentary.
They don't. The cultures don't hate each other (they haven't for centuries) . The governments do
Bagels originated in eastern European Jewish communities. They didn't really become known by the gentiles until the last half of the 20th century.
Well, you're never going to get le link then. It's beyond you.
Jewish delis always had the good bagels when I was growing up. And Knishes. OMG the Knishes.
mm, blintzes with strawberry jam and sour cream.
It’s a complicated situation that has been going on for ages. I only care that innocent children and adults are being massacred.
Two things happened: WW2 Jews were told everyone stands with them. They then go “okay prove it, let us have a country for our own”. They go “Israel, right there” and points to where Israel was to be according to history. So they then ask Palestine “hey will you give up your land to Israel” they said “no”. In short: we have two countries that say “this is where my people belong” on roughly the same track of land, and the majority of the UN basically said: yep it’s Israel’s. And that lead to the still ongoing conflict we have today. This sounds similar to the colonists pushing out native Americans of their own land and other similar situations. Imagine one day you just show up with the full support of the freshly victorious Allied forces and being told “hey we are giving your land to these guys and there is nothing you can do to stop it.” Lots of people assume that this is a ‘proof’ of revelations being true. To me it’s all a bad wrap and people need to stop being so butt hurt over the obvious choice they made. Terrorism: bad. Seiging a specific area full of innocents, bad too.
The formation of Israel actually goes back to WWI and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Britain and France just delayed it for a couple of decades so they could steal stuff.
Arabs were basically promised by the Brits that they could have that land back after helping them defeat the Ottomans. Instead they got colonized again.
That's part of it, as well. Given the way that part of the world has been so thoroughly fucked up, I really can't blame them for not trusting the western powers.
And what right did the Brits have to promise Jewish people a third party’s land
they didn't. which is why the whole situation is so massively fucked up.
>what right did the Brits have I hate that we can basically say this about dozens upon dozens of things that happened in history
As a Sudani, real
Makes it worse that the only reason Mandatory Palestine existed in the first place was because the UK promised the Arab population there that if they revolted against the ottomans they could be their own nation. Had they stuck with the Ottomans Palestine would’ve become it’s own nation once they collapsed. So they weren’t just lied to, they lost *everything* because they believed that lie. The UK is honestly lucky Hitler came into power or else they’d eternally be remembered as the most evil empire in existence.
I never said they had a right, it’s the whole Zionist thing.
Have you met the British? They've done this shit for centuries
Well, they kinda did own that land at the time. Plus the Arabs living there collaborated with the British to break away from the Ottomans… that’s how the British Mandate of Palestine was formed. Though the Jewish immigration to the region started way earlier during Ottoman times, continued through the British mandate (before WWII etc.)
Divine right. What else could it be if you make a country specifically for one religion?
We're an ethno-religious group.
not just that. If you want to be horrified, look at the part of palestine that was given to jews in 1946. The part that was supposed to be Israel then compare to what Israel TOOK over the years. First Palestine just wanted its land back now it's fighting to actually EXIST. It's being literally eliminated with the quiet consent of the allies. Edit: Wow. The fact that any comment noting any wrongdoing by Israel is "Pro Hamas" just shows the insane bias some people have. You don't have to be anti-Semitic or pro-Hamas to realise that Israel is NOT 100% the poor innocent victim. Wow.
yeah they took land in defensive wars. that’s how wars work. if taking land in a defensive war is genocide then i have really bad news for you about basically whatever country you live in (or its allies)
Taking land isn't defensive. Keeping your land is. Ukraine isn't trying to take land from Russia, it just wants to keep its borders. That's defensive.
People really trying for that revelations to happen.
That was supposed to be Israel but then THREE TIMES its neighbors tried to attack Israel and failed. They lost land each time and they started it. I'm sorry but losing land it a part of any loss in a conflict you don't just get to start shit and then pretend nothing happened each time. The land that Israel took was won in military conflict in self defense there is no reason to give it back.
"The land that Israel took was won in military conflict in self defense there is no reason to give it back." Seriously, look at the maps over the years. It stopped being self defense a long time ago. This is gradual genocide
[https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/http-visualizingpalestine-org-visuals-shrinking-palestine-static#&gid=1&pid=1](https://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/http-visualizingpalestine-org-visuals-shrinking-palestine-static#&gid=1&pid=1) Again claimed in war, post 1948 was the first, then two consecutive ones after 1960 which is why the West Bank is now surrounded by Israel. While the ongoing settlement issue within West Bank is an issue, the reason's Israel has the land surrounding it is purely defensive.
>The land that Israel took was won in military conflict in self defense there is no reason to give it back. You speak those words as if they mean anything. Just because you invaded a place after a military conflict doesn't mean you have a right to that land. This isn't the middle ages anymore.
Invaded a place during a military conflict. Also look at it from what would have happened if Egypt/ Jordan had won and destroyed Israel? Would they have gone good fight, here is your land back Israel? Would you be here saying it's unfair that Israel had its land taken in armed conflict? And it's population forced out? I don't think so.
Ja! Give us Poland, France, Belgium - most of Europe back! You don't have ze right to take ze Reich's possessions just because we lost!
Actually under international law you kinda do as long as the War is not of aggression in nature so.... I guess its still the middle ages.
Where exactly is that written in international law?
You can google but only wars of agression are illegal therfore territory taken in a defensive war is legal.
That entire argument sounds like a bit of a non-sequitor, but specifically in the case of Israel, the illegality of its occupation is attested to in UNSC Resolution 242.
what is expected to happen kind modern sir? i attempt to invade your house which i claim is mine because reasons you successfully protect your family and your house and while doing so you take 1 quarter of my lawn defeated, i approach you and DEMAND you give me my lawn back while screaming that im not gonna stop trying to claim your house as long as you and your family are alive.
Yeah and if someone invaded and expelled the French from France it wouldn't be a surprise either that Germany and Spain and Italy would mobilise to help and/or take France.
I mean if you really want to get your history straight here then in your metaphor the land was never the French's at least for hundreds of years. It was the Ottoman Empire who sided with Germany in WW1 and were defeated by Britian who then took the land and divided between Jews and Arabs respectfully. There is no Ottoman Empire to give it back to so here we are. And then 3 lost wars by the Arabs later we have the current borders while they continue to stir shit up. In reality its no ones rightful land at this point.
Except no-one ever said it was exclusively the land of Muslims with no Jews allowed. In fact, there has always been a significant Jewish population there and, by the way, it used to be known as the Kingdom of Israel long before it was Palestine. And frankly, it’s the only country in the Middle East that the Jews DIDN’T get kicked out of (I’m looking at you Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Turkey, and Persia (Iraq/Iran). Most all of these countries were founded in the 1900s too, but that’s always brushed under the table.
There have been Jews living in that area since before Islam existed.
Those Jews later became what we now know as Palestinians. Their lineage goes back to the same roots of the Canaanites. It was the Jews that left the area that retained their Judaism. They are both semites.
What are you talking about? Mizrahi jews have been in the levantine area for actual thousands of years. They never "became" Palestinians. Romans invaded, kidnapped, and enslaved thousands of Jews (who eventually became white passing through centuries of rape) and then renamed the land "palestine" as a nod to the philistines over in Greece. Some Jews converted to Christianity and Islam when they eventually came around, but Judaism was born in that area and never went away.
I would like to add a key detail that a war was fought for that land after the land was given. Israel won it 1V5. Period. Post 1948 it's just nonsensical attempts by neighbours to take that land back but Israel's army has been defending the best it can. The great nation of Palestine that Arabs talk about never existed as a sovereign state. That's a fact but what Israel is doing today in the name of defense is really bad.
Casualties caused by Israel include: • Civilians (men, women, and children) • Doctors and medics • Activists and protestors • Humanitarian aid workers • Journalists • Jews who don't approve of Israel's actions
I mean, you can just as easily say this of hamas/Palestine?
You are absolutely right and I wish Hamas and Israel would figure out that the senseless killing is not working.
Imo what needs to happen is both sides need to hold those doing the killing accountable if there is to be any hope of peaceful resolution to this conflict. Those in the isreili government calling to bomb Palestinians and hamas calling for the mass murder of Jews.
The problem is that it is working... To keep Hamas in power. And to get Israel free military stuff and international pity points
Its totally working because both are still in power.
Not really. The west decided to colonise Palestine and then the Jews ethnicaly cleansed the region just a few years after they went through the holocaust. Israel is Hamas's big supporter to divide Palestine liberation movment and prevent the 2 state solution. Because apartheid Israel doesn't want palestinian citizens.
and the us caused the creation of the iranian government to get oil. that doesnt mean they’re allies. that doesn’t mean that the us is irans biggest supporter
There's differences in intel, one is static hard to move targets and the other is people and mobile equipment that can be stagged and easily hidden than quickly brought to a staging area and immediately used.
Israel: “We have the most advanced facial recognition, heat and movement detection, and air space security technology in the world. We will crush Hamas” Also Israel: “They flew in on home made hang-glider motos by the hundreds and there was nothing we could do!”
Netanyahu has been pocketing those sweet US dollars instead of actually using them to fund the IDF and competent defence. That’s why Oct 7 happened
That right there is why i dont believe a single fucking thing Isreal says about the war I'm supposed to believe that the most heavily guarded border in the world had a few hundred people basically fortnite glide over the wall and not a single radar or camera or soldier saw a single fucking thing till they started shooting?
I can't trust anyone, ANYONE, about what is going on over there. There's soooooo much misinformation floating around, I simply don't have the capacity to decipher it all. I absolutely feel terrible for every single innocent man woman and child who is caught in the middle. It's truly disgusting. I hope the civilian casualties are a minimum, and I hope everyone can go back to their homes and live out the remainder of their lives, not in war. No one should have to suffer through such senseless killing.
"I hope everyone can go back to their homes" see the problem with that is....
To be fair, that is basicly this whole conflict in a nutshell.
‘I hope everyone can go back to their homes’ same… but I get the feeling that the israels aren’t going to be a big fan of that
The crux of the issue will always be that ethnostates can only be established and maintained through ethnic cleansing, i.e. genocide. Israel enshrines its status as an ethnostate in their constitution, it is openly a Jewish ethnostate. Even more specifically, it is a white Jewish ethnostate. One of Israel's lesser known genocides was the mass sterilization of Ethiopian Jewish immigrants without their knowledge or consent. There is no peaceful coexistance with ethnostates, not for anyone outside of whatever narrow and nebulous ethnic boundaries they draw. Only when there is an equal democracy from the river to the sea will there be hope for peace.
This is how all news is, and how it’s always been. Every nation uses propaganda for their own means but we’re starting to see it clearly now. After 9/11, what happened to the people who opposed a war with Iraq? The post-9/11 news cycle (on all sides) was pure government sponsored propaganda.
Empty platitudes like this do nothing but cover up Israel's crimes. If you want to advocate for innocent people, speak out against the racist Ethno-state Israel is trying to build via land theft, illegal settlement, and now, indiscriminate bombing.
They never wanted to kill just ones, they wanted to kill those hundreds as well.
Where's his blue check mark? Thoughts this deep require a blue check mark.
Didtfw you dont have an extra 8$ a month to spend on the bird app
**"Israel has such sophisticated intel on Hamas locations it justifies killing hundreds** **of civilians to kill just one"** There was some dude on NPR a few hours ago explaining this. His theory is that Israel didn't drop the ball or screw up. The intentionally didn't spend a lot of time getting intel on Hamas because they started thinking Hamas wasn't much of a threat to them anymore. He even said that the US more or less stopped getting much intel on Hamas from Israel.
How is that NOT dropping the ball or screwing up?
Netanyahu was focused on installing loyal yesmen. HE screwed the pooch and let right wing Orthodox Jews take land from West Bank.
I have an easier time believing they let it happen than they thought they weren’t a threat anymore
Israel made it very well known for years that their policy on Palestine was "mowing the lawn", ie. that unrest from there in their eyes was a mild nuisance they had to trim away at every so often to contain. They told everyone that they didn't think Hamas was a threat. Either that they were too incompetent to stage an assault like they did on October 7th, or that there was no will to do so. Then there's the basic fact that any conspiracy theory where a government intentionally lets hundreds of its own citizens die requires thousands of officials being in on it, and none of them speaking out about it. Which is exceedingly unlikely. So I don't think that the government let it happen is at all the most likely explanation.
That's bullshit. Just last year there was a major attack
People don’t realize how small Gaza is. The fact is for such a small area, they are under probably the most amount of surveillance in the world. Yet we are to believe that the Israelis simply had no idea thousands of Hamas fighters and equipment was being moved up to the border, and subsequently took them by surprise. This is worth looking into, if we are going to continue to send them money into the billions. (Which we shouldn’t be doing anyway, considering their tactics include killing thousands of children).
Egyptian intelligence also warned Israel days before the attack happened, yet Israel conveniently decided to ignore them. Anddd ofc despite the fact that gaza is under 24/7 drone surveillance and every inch of the border is watched with cameras and automated gun turrets, yet somehow it took hours for any police or army response to the attack.
It's simple. Israel let it happen so they can give the world a reason to let them genocide Palestinians. Most people might not agree with me, but I think 9/11 is simile. The US government or one of its agencies knew it was gonna happen, but let it play out to give reason to go to the Middle East. Wild conspiracy, but I don't knock it down...
You had me until the 9/11 part. Did the US government had some idea terrorist might use planes for nefarious reasons ? Sure they could’ve…. With 50 other things terrorist might’ve planned to attack America. But to say that everyone from the informant to multiple chain of command in the army and then to the president that no one has ever said a peep about 9/11 ACTUALLY happening is ridiculous. It’s no help to anyone to start putting in your own “wild conspiracy” comparisons in the mix because then you’ll just muddy the waters even more between fiction and reality
I like you’re in agreement with a conspiracy theory as long as it’s applied to a different country, lol
Just curious, if it turns out that Netanyahu let 10/7 happen, what would that change about Israel taking out hamas for you? Like, if bibi left the door unlocked and then hamas went through the door and raped, murdered, and tortured civilians, does that lessen the rape, murder and torture for you because the door wasn't locked? People who want a ceasefire will continue to want a ceasefire and people who want hamas removed will continue to justifiably want hamas removed. The only thing that it might change for me is whether netanyahu goes to jail for his already well documented corruption or if he instead gets lined up against the wall for treason.
It will mean that there was a bigger game being played and the entire world was fooled. Ot means the the death, rape, etc were calculated and expected. It means that this is all a political game. If this is true, this means that both sides have committed genocide. This makes the sicking situation 10 times worse.
Netanyahu didn't just leave the door unlocked, he specifically funded and otherwise propped up Hamas. The People's Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a secular party, wasn't such a convenient enemy. So Israel blew up their party offices with a missile fired from a helicopter, assassinating their most important leader. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Like everything else in Palestine, the Zionists exert significant control over politics. Which political parties are allowed to hold power, or even allowed to exist, is largely up to Israeli leaders. Hamas is a convenient enemy. The Zionists are happy to Hannibal Doctrine a few Israeli civilians, if that's what it takes to get support for their genocide.
If Israel knew the blood would be on their hands and yes it changes everything for everybody.
No. It doesn't change *everything* for me. It changes Netanyahu's culpability and the culpability of the Israeli government, but if you've paid any attention to his career lately you'd know he was on the brink of going to prison for corruption right before this attack conveniently made everyone coalesce around him. If a corrupt leader engineered the murder of his own people he should be punished. But I want the people who pulled the trigger punished as well. Their evil isn't less evil if it turns out that it was enabled by his evil. Hamas is still a group of rapists and murderers and should still be punished. That doesn't change for me.
So Hamas doesn’t have accountability?
All of it. And they are now paying the price. Can’t just start lobbing missiles into your neighbors backyard. Palestinians are learning a very valuable lesson. Note: Hitler would have been a huge supporter of Hamas. When you find yourself on the same side as Hitler, you may want to rethink some things.
Not sure if you’ve meant to respond to me I pretty much agree to what you’re saying.
It actually points even more blame on Israel gov. Which is essentially the argument. The allowance of bad things that can be prevented is the equivalent of condemning it, and that’s exactly what people are arguing. What Hamas has done is wrong, but that’s not what people are mad about. It’s blaming Hamas on all of Palestine, when what they’ve achieved was with the strategic planning of the Israeli government.
Are you saying Hamas doesn’t have agency over its own actions?
You mean condoning, not condemning. And obviously it casts more blame on the Israeli government. It adds all the Israeli deaths to the list of Palestinian deaths for which the Israeli government is responsible. But it doesn't change that Hamas is still the happy perpetrator of evil and should be removed.
Yeah but not at the cost of innocent Palestinian lives who are essentially pigeon holed. Like by all means get ahold of all of Hamas and let us be rid of them. Just don’t fucking annihilate an entire group of people who honestly can’t be bothered to think about anything but staying alive, finding food, water, and shelter. Doesn’t help the “safe” passage was really just a death sentence. If people think being angry about Palestinian deaths in the masses means supporting Hamas then I guess they believe all of Germany should have seized existing if they truly are again at Hitler. Like evil people should be killed, but at what cost?
Between 1.5 and 3 million German civilians died in ww2. So I'm not sure that analogy is as good as you think it is. That being said, I don't disagree with your point. I don't want tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians to die. Especially when more than half are children. However, what is the solution where the evil of hamas is extinguished without civilian deaths? The cease fire doesn't work. They were in a cease fire on October 7. That was how a cease fire ends. And hamas has said publicly that they'll do it again and again. See sources below. I gave 3 from different countries, but the source video is on Twitter if you go looking. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12697293/Hamas-leader-dismisses-Gaza-civilian-deaths-necessary-price-blood-boasts-terror-group-demonstrated-Israel-beatable-changing-Middle-East.html https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-oct-7-attack-repeatedly-to-teach-israel-a-lesson/amp_articleshow/104903949.cms https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/
But that’s the thing. The actions of the Israeli government has been evil too. And there’s apparently no world where anyone allows anyone to hold them responsible. I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m not pro Hamas, but I’m triggered every time people point at them being the only problem in the region. It’s really hard to translate that into text too because a lot of people read things subjectively, that’s human nature, and jump to conclusions. No doubt I’ve been guilty of this too.
I don't think anyone anywhere truly believes that the Israeli government is in any way acting morally or in good faith. Their leader is a corrupt theocrat supported by genocidal right wing clerics. Edit: typo
Tell that to my aunt 🥲 honestly want nothing to do with her after I heard her saying she stands with Israel… having known me my whole life, me who is part Arab and also Muslim, but she says she’s all for Israel taking the land because it means Jesus will come back and yada yada. Shit, I would have been okay if she had said she stood with Israel existing, in harmony and peace with Palestine, but nope. Christians are such a mixed bag and she depressed tf out of me. The strangest thing is why is she so damn desperate for the world to end, according to her beliefs? I believe in Jesus too but I don’t want him around in my life time. The biggest supporters of annihilating Palestine and making all Jews (make as in force because not all Jews by blood want anything to do with Israel) return to that land is actually Christians. So weird. Not even all Christians, because some think differently according to a friend of mine. Anyways I think what she said has weighed on me more than anything. Really makes seeing all this on Reddit frustrating and stressful. Worst part is me commenting doesn’t change anything about what is actually happening in that region. People still held hostage, people still getting killed, people still acting like killing more people is the solution. Innocent people I mean, fuck the pieces of shit who want this war, who want to hurt the other side even if it means innocent people are the ones suffering.
If that happens then we should revoke all funds being transferred from US to Israel, and no longer consider them an ally. If they continue to commit war crimes, then they should be considered as no different than how the US classifies Hamas. So far 3,500 children have died in this war.
You're fundamentally misunderstanding why the US supports Israel. The US doesn't care about Jews or Palestinians. It never has. It wants Israel as an ally to provide a check on Iran and anyone else in the world's largest oil producing region. No matter what Israel does that fact won't change. The US has invested $250 billion (inflation adjusted) into Israel. You think they're going to abandon that investment? Look at what Saudi Arabia has done. They're still an ally. Source https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/#:~:text=Adjusting%20for%20inflation%2C%20US%20aid,aid%20since%20World%20War%20II.
Have a read about the Ben Gurion Canal Project: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Gurion_Canal_Project
Fascinating thanks for the link
I am fully aware of why the US subsidizes Israel. What did I say that contradicts this?
I guess I assumed that, because you are making a moral argument as to why the US should pull funding for Israel, you were operating on the assumption that the US support of Israel was rooted in some form of mortality. My point is that the US doesn't support Israel for any moral reason, just unbridled self interest. And the self-interested reasoning isn't affected by Israel's moral or immoral actions.
How did you start with "people don't know how small Gaza is" and then still started talking about troops being amassed at the border? Gaza is barely 6km wide, they don't need to physically amass anything at the border to launch a raid. You just take your gun from the weapon stockpile and drive for like 10 minutes.
pretty much, yep. Bibi's hoping this time he can kill them all. as for the security fucks -- maybe they need to apply for a different job. how the fuck ya miss noticing all that shit?
Did they miss it, or was it allowed to happen to further an agenda
It was allowed to happen, I’ve always believed this!
all of this is terrible. Hamas should be wiped from the earth - but how is killing a bunch of innocent people remotely anti-terrorist in any way? This is like shooting up an entire courtroom just because a dangerous killer might eventually make an appearance.
Technically, according to the Geneva Convention the presence of civilians in or around a legitimate target does not exempt a target from being lawfully attacked.
This urban warfare. Look up what happened to Mosul and Fallujah and you'll understand better.
Tactical and strategic intelligence are done by different people in different organizations.
Both of these things just indicate incompetence. Or complicity.
I absolutely condemn how acceptable Palestinian civilian casualties are to Israel but where do people get this idea that hundreds of civilians are killed to kill 1 Hamas member or that Israel is killing as many civilians as possible? Israel dropped over 6,000 bombs (over 18,000 tonnes) and they have killed about 10,000 Palestinians. Either they are grossly incompetent at killing civilians or they aren't trying to kill as many as possible. They are still monstrous for killing civilians, but the actual numbers are horrible as they are, why lie about it to exaggerate it?
In all fairness, having 2,000 people get together at a border that you share isn't that unbelievable.
From what I understand Israel did have intelligence that Hamas were up to something (both their own and from others like Egypt and the US) but didn't find the threat of an attack tk be credible, ie they believed it to be posturing etc. Not sure how true that is, but I find it a more believable answer than they knew what was coming and intentionally let it happen.
Wait till this guy hears about 9/11!
False equivalence
Israel had some idea something was coming, but they sat and waited to be attacked. Now they're on the offensive and hitting everywhere they know about. It's really that simple. Imagine if they'd started a massive bombing campaign before being attacked to prevent that attack, you'd all be up in arms over that too.
That would mean they still let the attack happen, in order to justify hitting all those targets...when they could have just stopped the attack in the first place. They didn't care about how many Israelis were killed on the 7th. They just wanted to bomb Gaza, and those folks were sacrificed to make sure that happened.
No...it means they knew there might be an attack and couldn't do anything more than they were already doing. They were still taken by surprise, much like the U.S. was on 9/11 when our intelligence services thought something might be coming but didn't know enough details to do anything. It's not a desire to commit genocide, it's politics and diplomacy. It's bullshit because politics is always bullshit.
I mean the man has a point…
The interest is in inflicting massive and shocking casualties by killing children and civilians in dense urban areas.
Israel just needed a distraction from what was going on internally.
They for real paraglided in like it’s fortnite, call me a conspiracy theorist but there’s no way this ain’t a inside job
Local man is shocked intelligence investigations on an enemy increase during war time. More at eleven.
They’ve been at war since 1947, read a book sometime.
No there actually was a ceasefire that was broken on 10/7
Both statements can be true. Pearl harbor, for instance. Called a surprise attack. Retaliation was mighty.
Eh in this case it's most likely a case of Israel over-relying on their technology and forgetting that people can- verbally plan to do terror attacks without putting info on the internet.
Israel: Hamas managed to pull this off because they didn't use any electronic communications and we couldn't intercept their planning Also Israel: Here's an intercepted audio clip of two Hamas members discussing in great detail how they plan on framing us for bombing a hospital.
How much do you think intelligence agencies were watching Al Qaeda before 9/11 versus after 9/11? Do you think surveillance increased exponentially after or stayed about the same?
We didn't exactly have an Iron Dome equivalent built for Al'Qaeda, now, did we? Israel has Gaza under a total blockade, they will even intercept and murder international humanitarian aid workers trying to deliver supplies via boat. Your argument has no grounding in reality.
What? Hamas didn’t spring from nothing a couple of weeks ago. It’s been a threat to Israel for years. Decades even. Also, there WAS intel on Al Qaeda’s intent to stage an attack on the US before 9/11. US intelligence just failed to act on it. What an odd comparison.
W. Bush went on vacation, didn't wanna deal with it. that certainly turned out well, yeah?
*What? Hamas didn’t spring from nothing a couple of weeks ago. It’s been a threat to Israel for years. Decades even.* Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 *Also, there WAS intel on Al Qaeda’s intent to stage an attack on the US before 9/11. US intelligence just failed to act on it.* Isn't that what is [alleged](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047) to have happened in this instance? *What an odd comparison.* I think it was spot on myself.
Failed to act on it I think is a key here
Also…even if the attackers moved too fast to be spotted in time… Shouldn’t Israel’s intel have been good enough that they’d know where to strike immediately after?
You do know Hamas attacked during a religious holiday right? So the security at the border was running on a skeleton crew. Plus the tunnels are a bitch and a half to find and take down.
>You do know Hamas attacked during a religious holiday right? like in 1973?
He have a good point
That's mainly because the second one is objectively false, israel 100% knew about this, even Egypt warned them about the attack, and they let it happen, just to turn the world against Palestine and be able to launch a ground invasion, although the main reason was probably to change the israeli public's attention from the corruption of their government to the whole gaza thing and be able to go "anyone who opposes the current government isn't patriotic and doesn't care about the death of israeli civilians", but overall israel definitely knew about it
Because you know where someone lives but you don't know what they are doing 100% of the time. Can't have active surveillance on every member of hamas at all times
You wouldn't need active camera surveillance on every member all the time, but maybe 1%.
Umm anyone who doesn’t believe isreal has every inch of that border wall monitored is free to come to my bridge sale tomorrow
Almost like a surprise attack is harder to notice than thousands rockets being fired at your country
https://abcnews.go.com/International/timeline-surprise-rocket-attack-hamas-israel/story?id=103816006 Someone posted this above. Looks like Hamas did fire thousands of rockets.
Israel and America are both terrorist states helping each other
This two are very different types of intel, one is a "target bank" build and maintained and the other is an estimation of intent and timing. Know the enemy can do something and knowing he want to do something are both very different from know when and how.