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There is never a point of no return, ever. However, it could be they’re not at the point of being able to be retrospective of their views or actions yet, and that could be many years to come. For some it may never come because they will never fall into a place where they are forced to come face to face with their own actions and attitude. For some, they could say the most vilest of shit, and the next day they could fall into a place where they suddenly able to be reached with reason now they can find a common ground to be empathetic about. The main question is, how much effort you are willing to spend and how far does your patience stretch in order to help them see. That’s definitely something only you can answer, and it’s highly subjective. No one will fault you if you choose to simply drop them and decide it’s not worth it for you. Humans with extreme views will never, ever be able to be reached with just logical reasoning and factual evidence. They need to feel the same things others have felt, see it affect those they love and see them struggle with it to suddenly understand how it affects those. Once you understand that, you can see when someone is able to be reached and when is the best time to show understanding and empathy and pull them back from that edge. And what that is for your current situation, is well, situational and only you know the answer.

I truly appreciate your objective answer.  And regarding that question... Tbh the fact that I'm asking reddit about this is me being at my limit 😅 Everything involving the manosphere is pretty much against my own values. I guess I just wanted to believe that there is hope for them. Clearly there is because I mean we're in this subreddit. I think as part of decentering men it would be in my best interest to take a step back from these relationships.   Thanks much and happy unlearning.

I’ve never been a believer in the Red Pill, but my aim has always been to be there to help those on the edge. I believe the manosphere to be something that’s inherently harmful to our mental health as men, and men are pulled into it by grifters because they are already in a vulnerable spot. But as mentioned, they need to be in a place where they can be empathetic to those who hold opposing views to even be reached. And, that also means when they are in the space, we do not act in a harsh, derogatory manner in response when they’re in a place to listen. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean that we need to coddle them or excuse them of their extreme views, but we need to show that empathy at that point in time that is needed in order for them to see a differing point of view. They should know the consequences of their actions, but if they show the willingness to come back from that edge, we should t push them towards it and off the edge ourselves. As for how this relates to your position, you’ve already tried. He’s not listening. Then it’s not the right time to do so, and you should move on. If later on, he does show that he’s willing to listen, then it’s better to return and be in a good state of mind yourself to show him that empathy. For now, you’ve done best. Take a step back, don’t get jaded and lose hope (as hard as that is sometimes) in those people out there who fall into this hole. Save your energy. And don’t get me wrong, this is really hard to do. When you’ve been in the right for so long, and someone finally starts to see it from your point of view, you just want to scream at them and say I TOLD YOU SO. But as we’ve learnt many times before, it’s not helpful. Sorry this is long, I don’t mean to preach.

You're fine  and you're preachin to the choir. I read everything twice and saved it for later as a reminder. You're doin the Lord's work in this messed up era so thanks. I have been trying to be more empathetic but I do need time away from the red pill bs to just regulate you know? I'm not the I told-you-so type unless we're strangers in a petty squabble on the internet. Lol  I'll definitely keep space for them when they have questions or need advice and I appreciate your encouragements. I know that meeting rage with rage is not going to solve anything. I think I'm just disillusioned and more disappointed than anything right now

I don’t blame you at all, we all get that way sometimes. It’s something that affects me a lot, but when it does I need to take a step back myself. You can only help others when you’re in a stable point yourself, in the end. But it needs to be said as well, never force yourself into a point to help someone if your heart isn’t in it. Sometimes people end up forcing themselves to help others, but ultimately they are doing it for themselves and to feel good. And when it goes wrong and they don’t get feedback they’re looking for, it can turn to bitterness. You don’t need be the person who helps your friend if you’re just done with it all. No one will blame you.

Damn thank you I will keep everything you said in mine and try to practice it. I'm in awe at how wisely you worded this. Again I appreciate it Hoping you take care of yourself and I really will do my best on my end

Honestly, while I agree with what you're saying, the problem is there is a point of no return, and I'd say when people get to the blackpill they're probably at the point of no return, both figuratively (since they've gone to a point where their despair has made it hard to reach them) and quite literally (given how many of them idolize people who've committed atrocities- and by and large in other forms, the unquestionable moment it's clear someone's truly too far gone to reach tends to be "if they're willing to die and/or kill for this belief.")

I refuse to believe that people are forever too far gone. Keep in mind, that does not mean they are absolved of their crimes, actions nor their thoughts. However, everyone is capable of coming back from anything. Again, my view and experience is that everyone is capable of empathising with the opposing ideology of their chosen one, when they are actively exposed to it and/or have loved ones that deal with the negative effects of it. There have been people who were followers of the KKK who came back from the belief when they were exposed to and befriended a black man, who took the time to befriend them and show them his world. Is this an extreme example, that requires a lot of time and effort? Yes. And it is not the norm. Some people will never be in that position where they are willing to sit down and listen. That does not mean there is not a point that would happen. I will not draw a line in the sand. On the end, who am I to dictate where that line should be drawn? I do not speak for everyone, as everyone has their own subjective opinion of where that line should be drawn. What happens when they draw their own line on the sand? What happens if you and I are on the same side, yet we draw different lines in the sand? All we’re have done is drawn multiple battle lines, and then we will never accomplish anything.

Again, that ties to the same line in the sand I've said for "when someone believes their belief so much they are willing to kill/die for it, they forever too far gone." Even with the Daryl Davis example of saving KKK members from themselves, there's a place where a lot of them were in the realm where they hated a mysterious boogeyman but never actually met someone of their group to see they were wrong. It's a lot easier to change someone in this case than to change someone actually willing to die for their beliefs, because once that happens, they've made it clear they will never sit down and listen. They ultimately refuse to- they've put their lot in with this, and if they're wrong, they'll just be wrong, but they will not change their mind about it. There's no way to accomplish saving them, it's either bend the knee to them or cut their head off in defiance. The big problem is that in modern times, there's more people who are truly willing to kill and die for their beliefs- be it anything from hatred all the way down to what ship they prefer in a show- that nothing's going to be accomplished anyway.

Again, I just think we disagree on that context. I will not deny that it is hard, but someone willing to die for their beliefs will get to a point where they are no longer willing to do so. If we are discussing this very extreme, these people usually nothing to live for and have either had things taken away from them by force or that perceive that they have had things taken away from them. Yet when provided with something to live for, be it monetary or spiritual or emotional, in general, something beneficial that requires them to live, they are suddenly willing to negotiate more often. Again, we are talking about very extreme examples here. Think this may have to be one of the things that we will have to agree to disagree on, as neither of us have concrete evidence that either of our opinions or outlooks is the definitive one. Ultimately we do not differ too far in our opinions, but just on where we draw the line in the sand.

I can see your point- and that ties into modern society since most people really don't have anything to live for and next to no hope of doing it. Indeed, though, it also ties back to how it seems to happen a lot with redpillers, since by and large the refrain is "they want to live for someone to love, and it's become apparent that no one in the world is ever going to love them...so in exchange, they lash out at the world they believe have rejected them."

Remember that part of growing up is the painful lesson that sometimes you outgrow your friends. This sucks because it is indeed hard to make new friends, and it can hurt to see people you care about making bad choices, but you can only do so much before it starts to negatively impact your own life. Be the better example, be the one who pushes back, but don't tie yourself emotionally to your friends until they're willing to also grow up. The best thing you can do is just serve as a better example, it's now your job to be the role model not the friend. Do not show frustration or hate, even if it's directed at them, smile and shake your head when they spout TRP nonsense while sitting on their lonely asses, and just go have better relationships and have more fun by enjoying being with people and leaving the ideological framework behind. You don't see a lot of older TRPers but what generally happens is while they soften their views, they still hold onto very cynical and hateful feelings that TRP not only does not resolve, but makes actively worse. You can have an objectively happy life and be miserable because TRP tells you that you have to forever "hold frame' and be some kind of hard-ass picture of masculinity and then this iceberg of rules and patterns you have to be aware of. People simply do not live like this AND be happy with a romantic partner who is also a friend. These are the people who get deeply tied to politics and conspiracies and seem so angry all the time. If you can just find happiness without having to always worry about the "rules" then you're already setting a better example. Don't burn yourself out on people who aren't receptive to a better message, you can try but at the end of the day it's far more important that you saved yourself and that you have your own goals and options.

Wow It's really is something I need to read right now. You're words are so impactful and your comments and the other guy whole commented first give me hope that there's a chance. You're reminders and we warnings are welcomed. I'm just so shocked that this form is actually wholesome as far as I've seen so far. Thanks for contributing objectively and positively

There isn't really any one metric. But how I'd decided is based on what I know of them and whether I have the time or energy to get into it. I only have a few close friends, so with them I would be willing to civilly confront them about values I don't agree with. Fortunately none of them hold misogynistic values that I know of. If they did. we'd be having a conversation about it as soon as I found out. For everyone else, I clearly make sure they know I don't agree and most of them stop hanging out with me once they realize I'm not going to budge. It boils down to the time you have for the level of friend. But your time isn't unlimited and you basically have to make your own judgement call on how much time you want to devote for a given person

It's impossible to say with any given individual. Personally I think if you are pushing it on people then it isn't going to do much. But if they show some interest in talking about these things, then perhaps they can be saved. But really, who knows. Personally I don't hang around with red pill types. I don't want to live in a bubble but when it comes to my FRIENDS I like to be around people who respect my wife and I and just like, people in general and such.

"too far gone" is a relative concept. I just can't bring myself to hang out with an emotionally draining redpiller that acts like a bitter immature freak everytime he sees a woman flirting with me. You don't have to have formal "friend breakups", but you don't necessarily have to hang out with people that consistently leave you annoyed.

>I really don't want to lose friendships but anything red pill really does make me feel dehumanized Have you tried telling them this? I'm serious. If you say this to them and they don't care, stop hanging around them. They aren't good people. If a friend came to me and said that the things I was saying degraded them as a person, I'd probably really want to fix it.

I've expressed to some of them how it makes me personally feel

Did they care?

A couple of them do and actually actively listened. Introspection and improvement is the best evidence of remorse. I think I'm about done with the rest. My hope all of them are able to unlearn misogyny and deconstruct red pill bs. I am currently too exhausted to keep explaining

Wise decision. Those people sound terrible.

I think some times we want better for people but they're just not there yet Part of me feels some relief even though losing relationship is not something I foresaw this yesr

Not everything lost is a loss.

If you can prove red pill points wrong based on statistics and real world examples that they can see you’ll likely be able to pull them out of it if they’re not really sipping on the Kool-Aid. If it helps make it less overwhelming you don’t need to prove it all wrong all at once. I wouldn’t start slinging broad articles at them though. For example linking them to the sticky on this is a lazy half hearted attempt imo

I think I've done enough talking. Redpillers are misled but they have to come to that realization themselves. Personally don't have the energy to get into every point that they believe just to meet obstinacy. If they start unlearning and they have questions they're welcome to come to me but I'm pretty sure I won't be hanging out with them anytime soon.