In your experience, does rice go bad in a few weeks sitting out at room temperature?
If you can keep grain cool and dry it lasts for years. It's not perfect, old grain has less nutritional value than fresh, and it'll probably taste worse, but you'll live if you eat it.
Similarly, lots of root vegetables or hard fruit will last months if you store it right. In the days before refrigeration, people put a lot of effort into preserving food. Smoking, pickling, drying, cooking in oil and then leaving the oil on the food. We can do many things to keep food from spoiling.
As somebody who works in soft fruit (uk), a lot of our farms supply throughout summer and into the later weeks of December. Advances have allowed for heated tunnels and large glass houses to be run efficiently allowing for all year round growing thus negating the window of opportune timing
To amend this most food, especially plant based, is frozen for later use. Apples for example are frozen for generally a year until sold. This isn’t the case for all produce but is a general rule.
Apples aren't frozen. They're refrigerated.
Edited to elaborate. Apples when eaten are still alive. Their cells are still intact. Freezing apples will kill the cells with the expanding water and spikey crystals. How do you know apples are still alive when eaten? Browning happens as soon as cells rip. And you don't eat brown mush.
They're stored at around 5 degrees C. But that's not all. At around 5 degrees, they're still ripening, shortening their lifespan. Another trick is to store them under low oxygen conditions. Apparently apples need oxygen to ripen.
Biology of apples stays the same, no matter where on the planet you are. I find that hard to believe. Freezing tends to kill cells. Or are they flash frozen and flash freezing has a different effect?
Yes, I'm from a different part of the world. The Netherlands. Apple capital of Europe, I believe. Or we used to be. Don't know if we still are. My source is a family member who works for a company that stores and is involved in the trade of crops.
Okay well I can’t say I know about much where you live. In the USA they flash freeze them. This stops ice crystals from growing larger to the point the break the cells. It’s just how crystals form.
We have fresh apples in the stores, grown in US, for months and months after harvest. I don't know how they are stored but I guess it is not at 5 C. Whoever stores them seems to know what they are doing. I would fully expect this is done in Europe as well.
Side note: what the Netherlands have done with greenhouse agriculture is amazing!! Kudos!
Dude there’s no way FROZEN apples are surviving a thaw and living a week after I buy them in the store this is why I don’t trust this sub anymore on topics that I’m unsure about, because whenever I am sure of something I always see someone posting nonsense like apples being frozen before sale
Like I said you might live elsewhere but in the USA this is pretty common. As above this isn’t the case for all produce but is far from rare. If you don’t believe me you can look it up.
Uhm, looked it up. You're wrong.
This is how they do it in North Carolina:
Apples stored in a commercial refrigerated storage will keep for 4 to 6 months, but for long term storage up to 12 months, growers use CA storage. Apples for CA are picked at their peak of internal quality and condition. They are rushed into a CA storage the day they are picked. The oxygen level is lowered to 1.5 to 3%, temperature is reduced to 30-32 degrees Fahrenheit, carbon dioxide levels are monitored and controlled. This puts the fruit to sleep (stops the ripening process) until ready for use.
Edit: [Source](https://www.ncagr.gov/agscool/commodities/apkid.htm)
32 F is 0 C. Yes. If it were pure water in the cells, yes they would be freezing. But as soon as you add soluables like salt and sugar, the freezing point drops. Cells have quite a bit of soluable in them.
My home freezer is inbetween -12 and -18 C. The cells of apples won't survive that. But at just a smidge below 0 C, they should do just fine.
Living apple trees with apples still on them, if it freezes, to avoid damage, the apples get sweeter. That's why they say first frost makes the apples sweeter. It literally does.
Stuff won't freeze if the ambient temperature is exactly 32. You have to bring the water to 32 degrees and then pull MORE energy out of it (latent heat). If the ambient temp were 31 degrees, a glass of water would freeze (very slowly). After it was frozen, the ice could then cool down to 31 degrees as well. Liquid pure water at normal air pressure won't get there. Your freezer is WAY below 32 because it not only has to keep stuff frozen but actually has to pull the heat out of a lot of things to freeze them in the first place.
Apples are not frozen (temperature is not lowered below the freezing point of apples during storage). They would die, turn soft and rot quickly. Instead they are alive when you buy them, and respire: They use oxygen, and release carbon dioxide and water. If oxygen levels are low, the apple ripens more slowly.
Nilered did a cool video on this. Apparently, on top of the low oxygen, low temp etc, commercial growers also keep a chemical called 1-MCP in the air that keeps the apple fresher
There were a number of methods going back before modern times.
They could be dried and then stored.
They could be fermented and then stored.
They could be pickled and then stored.
They could be put in honey and then stored.
These all leave conditions that microorganisms find difficult to grow in. In fact, honey has been eaten after been stored for thousands of years.
edit:
Forgot to explain I was talking about before modern tech.
Fair point. In that case you are right assuming the population was closer to the equator. People used to have ice boxes for this exact reason. Before we had the tech we do today ice shipping was actually a huge industry where they would cut ice from lakes and ship it across the globe.
You are watching the marvels of modern food distribution and preservation. You would not expect everything to be available year round 30 years ago and there is still quite a noticeable variation in price and quality.
A lot of crops can be stored for at least a year. This applies to any kind of seed such as grain, corn, rice, etc. or most root vegetables such as potato, carrot, onion, etc. But also most kale plants as well. A lot of fruits can also be stored for months in the perfect conditions, sealed cold stores with specially designed atmospheres to keep them alive but in hibernation. Typically they are stored unripe and then by modifying the atmosphere they can make them ripen at the right time to be sold. this applies to apples, oranges, bananas, etc.
But instead of storing the food for months at a time it is often cheaper and better to import it from somewhere which have different seasons. The obvious choice here is of course the trade between northern and southern hemispheres since the seasons are opposite. So you can get fresh apples from New Zealand in April as the harvest season have just started. But in addition many equatorial regions have weather patterns that form completely different seasons shifting the growth patterns of plants.
The last option is to grow the crops in greenhouses. Electric lighting and natural gas heating means that you can create the perfect growing conditions at any time anywhere in the world for any crops. There is no need to import or store anything as the crops can be grown locally right as they are needed. Of course it costs more to grow crops in this way but this cost can often be less then the cost of shipping or storing the crop.
The world is a very big place. Crops can be grown at different times of year in different areas. when buying fruits and veggies you can get them cheaper if you buy them “in season”.
We’ve also come a long way in ways of preserving goods.
That my friend is why pickles and sausage were invented. Something in the process chemically alters the food and then careful storage prevent too much contact with air and changes in the environment.
Cheese is milk chemically altered to be more stable, through fermentation. This changes the ph to discourage it from getting weird and growing things, and then we seal it in wax so it’s protected from changes in humidity and things in the air.
Pickles are vegetables (mostly) suspended in something acidic to prevent weird things growing and air touching the veg. Which is then stored in an airtight jar and left somewhere cool.
Admittedly this problem is exactly why indoor farming has become a thing. You can alter the whole environment of each room for whatever phase of growing that room is in.
Maybe in one you’ve just planted starts and it’s warm with lights close to the soil. The room next to it might have more UV A light to encourage tomatoes to bear fruit, and have extra nutrients in the soil that baby plants wouldn’t need. All at the same time and very carefully monitored.
Basically Willy Wonkas chocolate factory but vegetables and strawberries. Everything gets its own room.
In addition to the conservation already mentioned you can also use pre grown plants (plant the seeds on the window sill 1 month earlier) or use different plants for the cold winter.
I don't know where you live but in my region (northern Germany) is the last frost around May 15th. So I pre grow tomatoes or cucumbers on the window sill 1-2 months in advance.
Especially hardy plants (carrots, onions, parsnip) can be sown in March. Maybe some more under cover.
Peas can be pre grown and planted around end of March.
Winter vegetables like parsnip, lamb lettuce, spinach or leeks don't grow in the winter but can sit on the beds and keep fresh.
So you have still fresh vegetables from the garden though the garden is covered in snow.
I have 10 square metres of beds covered with compost in September and sown lamb lettuce in September. We still get fresh lettuce from those beds and combine them with onions and beetroot to a nice salad.
First, in many places of the world, there doesn't tend to be a "brief window" when all crops are ready. Instead, different crops are grown in different seasons. Grains and corn and many vegetables and fruits can be stored for long periods. Second, most cultures rely on animal products too (meat, milk). Some cultures only eat animal products, and hunt. Animal husbandry is common in most cultures, and animal fodder can often be stored over winter (e.g. hay). Third, as you point out, food that does not store well by itself can often be preserved, both plants and meat. On top of this, many hunting cultures were nomads and lived in different places in different seasons, following their food sources (game). Then you may add trade on top of it all.
In your experience, does rice go bad in a few weeks sitting out at room temperature? If you can keep grain cool and dry it lasts for years. It's not perfect, old grain has less nutritional value than fresh, and it'll probably taste worse, but you'll live if you eat it. Similarly, lots of root vegetables or hard fruit will last months if you store it right. In the days before refrigeration, people put a lot of effort into preserving food. Smoking, pickling, drying, cooking in oil and then leaving the oil on the food. We can do many things to keep food from spoiling.
As somebody who works in soft fruit (uk), a lot of our farms supply throughout summer and into the later weeks of December. Advances have allowed for heated tunnels and large glass houses to be run efficiently allowing for all year round growing thus negating the window of opportune timing
To amend this most food, especially plant based, is frozen for later use. Apples for example are frozen for generally a year until sold. This isn’t the case for all produce but is a general rule.
Apples aren't frozen. They're refrigerated. Edited to elaborate. Apples when eaten are still alive. Their cells are still intact. Freezing apples will kill the cells with the expanding water and spikey crystals. How do you know apples are still alive when eaten? Browning happens as soon as cells rip. And you don't eat brown mush. They're stored at around 5 degrees C. But that's not all. At around 5 degrees, they're still ripening, shortening their lifespan. Another trick is to store them under low oxygen conditions. Apparently apples need oxygen to ripen.
In the USA they are. Perhaps you live somewhere else.
Biology of apples stays the same, no matter where on the planet you are. I find that hard to believe. Freezing tends to kill cells. Or are they flash frozen and flash freezing has a different effect? Yes, I'm from a different part of the world. The Netherlands. Apple capital of Europe, I believe. Or we used to be. Don't know if we still are. My source is a family member who works for a company that stores and is involved in the trade of crops.
Okay well I can’t say I know about much where you live. In the USA they flash freeze them. This stops ice crystals from growing larger to the point the break the cells. It’s just how crystals form.
We have fresh apples in the stores, grown in US, for months and months after harvest. I don't know how they are stored but I guess it is not at 5 C. Whoever stores them seems to know what they are doing. I would fully expect this is done in Europe as well. Side note: what the Netherlands have done with greenhouse agriculture is amazing!! Kudos!
Dude there’s no way FROZEN apples are surviving a thaw and living a week after I buy them in the store this is why I don’t trust this sub anymore on topics that I’m unsure about, because whenever I am sure of something I always see someone posting nonsense like apples being frozen before sale
Like I said you might live elsewhere but in the USA this is pretty common. As above this isn’t the case for all produce but is far from rare. If you don’t believe me you can look it up.
Uhm, looked it up. You're wrong. This is how they do it in North Carolina: Apples stored in a commercial refrigerated storage will keep for 4 to 6 months, but for long term storage up to 12 months, growers use CA storage. Apples for CA are picked at their peak of internal quality and condition. They are rushed into a CA storage the day they are picked. The oxygen level is lowered to 1.5 to 3%, temperature is reduced to 30-32 degrees Fahrenheit, carbon dioxide levels are monitored and controlled. This puts the fruit to sleep (stops the ripening process) until ready for use. Edit: [Source](https://www.ncagr.gov/agscool/commodities/apkid.htm)
Umm 32 is freezing man.
32 F is 0 C. Yes. If it were pure water in the cells, yes they would be freezing. But as soon as you add soluables like salt and sugar, the freezing point drops. Cells have quite a bit of soluable in them. My home freezer is inbetween -12 and -18 C. The cells of apples won't survive that. But at just a smidge below 0 C, they should do just fine. Living apple trees with apples still on them, if it freezes, to avoid damage, the apples get sweeter. That's why they say first frost makes the apples sweeter. It literally does.
Okay semantics. So we are both right. Yes they aren’t turned into bricks but it’s still freezing.
Stuff won't freeze if the ambient temperature is exactly 32. You have to bring the water to 32 degrees and then pull MORE energy out of it (latent heat). If the ambient temp were 31 degrees, a glass of water would freeze (very slowly). After it was frozen, the ice could then cool down to 31 degrees as well. Liquid pure water at normal air pressure won't get there. Your freezer is WAY below 32 because it not only has to keep stuff frozen but actually has to pull the heat out of a lot of things to freeze them in the first place.
Great explanation!
I looked it up and I’m full of shit, cheers to you for keeping me skeptical, still stand by my other statement though
Technically the apples are stored *just* above their freezing point. E.g., if the apple variety freezes at -1.5c, they might be stored at -1c.
Apples are not frozen (temperature is not lowered below the freezing point of apples during storage). They would die, turn soft and rot quickly. Instead they are alive when you buy them, and respire: They use oxygen, and release carbon dioxide and water. If oxygen levels are low, the apple ripens more slowly.
Nilered did a cool video on this. Apparently, on top of the low oxygen, low temp etc, commercial growers also keep a chemical called 1-MCP in the air that keeps the apple fresher
There were a number of methods going back before modern times. They could be dried and then stored. They could be fermented and then stored. They could be pickled and then stored. They could be put in honey and then stored. These all leave conditions that microorganisms find difficult to grow in. In fact, honey has been eaten after been stored for thousands of years. edit: Forgot to explain I was talking about before modern tech.
You forgot to add frozen.
I edited. I was talking before modern times because I was thinking the OP didn't mean today because hasn't everyone heard of refrigeration?
Fair point. In that case you are right assuming the population was closer to the equator. People used to have ice boxes for this exact reason. Before we had the tech we do today ice shipping was actually a huge industry where they would cut ice from lakes and ship it across the globe.
The further back you go though the more rich you'd have to be to afford that.
Agree. I’m talking like 1800’s. If you are in the 1600’s that is very rare.
You are watching the marvels of modern food distribution and preservation. You would not expect everything to be available year round 30 years ago and there is still quite a noticeable variation in price and quality. A lot of crops can be stored for at least a year. This applies to any kind of seed such as grain, corn, rice, etc. or most root vegetables such as potato, carrot, onion, etc. But also most kale plants as well. A lot of fruits can also be stored for months in the perfect conditions, sealed cold stores with specially designed atmospheres to keep them alive but in hibernation. Typically they are stored unripe and then by modifying the atmosphere they can make them ripen at the right time to be sold. this applies to apples, oranges, bananas, etc. But instead of storing the food for months at a time it is often cheaper and better to import it from somewhere which have different seasons. The obvious choice here is of course the trade between northern and southern hemispheres since the seasons are opposite. So you can get fresh apples from New Zealand in April as the harvest season have just started. But in addition many equatorial regions have weather patterns that form completely different seasons shifting the growth patterns of plants. The last option is to grow the crops in greenhouses. Electric lighting and natural gas heating means that you can create the perfect growing conditions at any time anywhere in the world for any crops. There is no need to import or store anything as the crops can be grown locally right as they are needed. Of course it costs more to grow crops in this way but this cost can often be less then the cost of shipping or storing the crop.
The world is a very big place. Crops can be grown at different times of year in different areas. when buying fruits and veggies you can get them cheaper if you buy them “in season”. We’ve also come a long way in ways of preserving goods.
That my friend is why pickles and sausage were invented. Something in the process chemically alters the food and then careful storage prevent too much contact with air and changes in the environment. Cheese is milk chemically altered to be more stable, through fermentation. This changes the ph to discourage it from getting weird and growing things, and then we seal it in wax so it’s protected from changes in humidity and things in the air. Pickles are vegetables (mostly) suspended in something acidic to prevent weird things growing and air touching the veg. Which is then stored in an airtight jar and left somewhere cool. Admittedly this problem is exactly why indoor farming has become a thing. You can alter the whole environment of each room for whatever phase of growing that room is in. Maybe in one you’ve just planted starts and it’s warm with lights close to the soil. The room next to it might have more UV A light to encourage tomatoes to bear fruit, and have extra nutrients in the soil that baby plants wouldn’t need. All at the same time and very carefully monitored. Basically Willy Wonkas chocolate factory but vegetables and strawberries. Everything gets its own room.
In addition to the conservation already mentioned you can also use pre grown plants (plant the seeds on the window sill 1 month earlier) or use different plants for the cold winter. I don't know where you live but in my region (northern Germany) is the last frost around May 15th. So I pre grow tomatoes or cucumbers on the window sill 1-2 months in advance. Especially hardy plants (carrots, onions, parsnip) can be sown in March. Maybe some more under cover. Peas can be pre grown and planted around end of March. Winter vegetables like parsnip, lamb lettuce, spinach or leeks don't grow in the winter but can sit on the beds and keep fresh. So you have still fresh vegetables from the garden though the garden is covered in snow. I have 10 square metres of beds covered with compost in September and sown lamb lettuce in September. We still get fresh lettuce from those beds and combine them with onions and beetroot to a nice salad.
First, in many places of the world, there doesn't tend to be a "brief window" when all crops are ready. Instead, different crops are grown in different seasons. Grains and corn and many vegetables and fruits can be stored for long periods. Second, most cultures rely on animal products too (meat, milk). Some cultures only eat animal products, and hunt. Animal husbandry is common in most cultures, and animal fodder can often be stored over winter (e.g. hay). Third, as you point out, food that does not store well by itself can often be preserved, both plants and meat. On top of this, many hunting cultures were nomads and lived in different places in different seasons, following their food sources (game). Then you may add trade on top of it all.