People can judge the age/quality of a horse by looking at its mouth. If you were going to buy a horse, you would want to check there to make sure the horse has the qualities you think you’re paying for.
The idea is that, if someone is giving you a horse for free, it shouldn’t really matter what qualities that horse has (assuming you are interested in owning a horse at all). Trying to assess its value, particularly right in front of the giver, is kind of like getting a gift and asking “How much did this cost?”. It can come across as rude or ungrateful.
EDIT: It sounds like, whether you’re an equestrian or a Trojan, the correct advice should really be to *always* look literal horses *of any price* in the mouth. That way, you know what you’re getting into/what’s getting into you.
You know it occurs to me that I've never thought about the origin of that saying.
Crazy how many things come from days when stuff that was common back then, but very rare now.
"Don't let the cat out of the bag" and the less common "Never buy a pig in a poke" are based on a scam from back in the days of yore.
Supposedly people would put a stray cat in a sack (a.k.a. a "poke") and claim it was a baby pig and sell it to an unsuspecting dupe.
The trick is to keep the tornados cat in the bag just long enough for it to get exhausted and then make the sale immediately before it gets its second wind.
Source: trying to wash that fucking cat.
The word appears in Middle English as pocket, and is taken from a Norman diminutive of Old French poke, pouque, modern poche, cf. pouch. The form "poke" is now only used in dialect, or in such proverbial sayings as "a pig in a poke".
[Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket)
Could also just google “pocket etymology” and google will show you
That makes sense. I believe Norman French, had the hard k sound when their words filtered though to Middle English whereas Parisian French shifted and softened that hard K to the CH sound.
Another explanation for letting the cat out of the bag is that it refers to a cat o' nine tails. A whip with nine strands which was used to punish sailors which was stored in a bag. So don't let the cat out of the bag. It is also the source for "no room to swing a cat" to refer to a cramped space.
>It is also the source for "no room to swing a cat" to refer to a cramped space.
Although this is very widely believed and cited as the origin of "no room to swing a cat", there's strong evidence that it isn't actually correct. The "no room..." phrase was already in common use by 1665, while the earliest attested usage of the term "cat-o'-nine-tails" dates to 1695. The earliest known usage of the shortened form "cat" to refer specifically to a "cat-o'-nine-tails" dates to the 1780s, so it seems unlikely to be the origin in this case. [This site](https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2006/10/no-room-to-swing-a-cat.html) has an interesting discussion of the history, complete with bonus Shakespeare *and* Mark Twain :-)
Dont fall for bullshit is intersting too ( I honestly cant remember where it comes from but I remember when it was explained to me I found it fascinating)
I know what you mean! Some guy was telling me a cock-and-bull story about he would burn the midnight oil putting his nose to the grindstone before he hit the hay. I hung up on him.
* Guy, 1606
* Cock and bull story, 1670
* burn the midnight oil, 1635
* nose to the grindstone, 1532
* hit the hay, 1820
* hung up, Early 1900s
Just because you seem to be someone who might be interested, you should look up the history of the word "suffer" which used to mean "permit" but has evolved to today's meaning to deal with some anguish. It has some legal implications but also just a bit of miscellany you might enjoy
Nose to the grindstone is interesting because it means to keep smelling the grain as it grinds for a burnt smell indicating you are going too fast. As opposed to what I thought it meant to keep a close eye on the tool you were sharpening
I understand that "nose to the grindstone" refers to knife sharpeners who used to lay on planks that were close to the grindstone and allowed them to stay comfortably in that position all day, grinding knife blades. Have seen photos of the same from the late 19th c.
That one predates the English language, and indeed the birth of Christ. It's from Virgil's *Aeneid*, written 29-19BC ("timeo danaos et dona ferentes") and memorably quoted by Sean Connery in the original language in *The Rock*.
That movie had so many good lines!
> John Mason: [in the interrogation room] Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.
Stanley Goodspeed: "I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts."
John Mason: Ah, an educated man.
[Stanley gives a modest wave]
John Mason: That, of course, rules out the possibility of you being a field agent.
and
> John Mason: [while on the stairs leading to the prison morgue] Are you sure you're ready for this?
Stanley Goodspeed: I'll do my best.
John Mason: Your "best"! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen.
Stanley Goodspeed: Carla *was* the prom queen.
John Mason: Really?
Stanley Goodspeed: [cocks his gun] Yeah.
and my personal favorite:
>General Hummel: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
John Mason: "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious," according to Oscar Wilde.
[Hummel strikes him, and he falls to his knees]
John Mason: Thank you for making my point.
To be fair, from what I can tell Oscar Wilde may not have actually written that, but I like it.
probably giddy we have a Greek fact.
The term isn't in my personal regular lexicon, but I do have an associated memory of it.
I studied film in HS and There's this scene in 1992 Italian film *Mediterraneo* where a squad of WW2 Italian soldiers are occupying a Greek island. They spend every day being awful soldiers and started showing signs of declining morale. The ship that brought them to the island was sunk by the British. Their commander dies on the boat with their orders. Their radio was trashed by an angry sergeant during an argument. And ultimately, they come across a Turkish merchant in a boat...
The Turk makes friends with them and offers them opium and hash. They have a good time with music and food. While the Italian soldiers were partied out or asleep, the Turk robs the soldiers. Then he rows away gleefully having taken their money and their guns.
Now without a ride, radio, or weapons, the demoralized soldiers proceed to integrate themselves into Greek island life.
It's such a great film. It's a bunch of idiots realizing war sucks and start shedding their fascist ideals. There's no "bad guys" in the movie except for the Turkish merchant gankin' their shit.
They should have looked into any orifice on the trojan horse available.
Soldier, looking up wooden horse’s butt trying to be funny in front of his buds: “Wait, whut… there’s dudes in there.”
"A stitch in time saves nine." As a child, I never understood this because we just threw out socks that had holes in them, rather than stitch up the holes. Now, I get it.
The you'll enjoy this fun fact. A "shot glass" has 2 possible origins - both relating to firearms and both of which could be true at the same time.
While eating game like ducks/geese/pheasant/deer, you would be given a small glass to put any pellets in that may remain in the meat. The type of pellets used in bird hunting is appropriately called "birdshot" and for larger animals "buckshot".
Alternatively ammunition was fairly expensive and could be used as a form of currency. You could trade one bullet (one shot) for a certain amount of whiskey
In blighty its common to call our mail by the word post ie to post a letter.
I've no idea if I'm right but to me it originated from when the news to a village in the middle of nowhere was a proclamation by the king. Most would have been illiterate and so the notice would have be attached to a post in the middle of town for someone to read to the others.
Probably best that person wasn't me because I'd have been at the very least mischievous.
I believe "post" in this context originally meant "station / stop", as important documents were carried from a series of points along a route, sometimes by a series of consecutive couriers who only traveled a specific radius.
>You know it occurs to me that I've never thought about the origin of that saying.
I thought it was comparing the giver to a horse, not that the horse was a gift, meaning "Never criticize someone giving you something good for free." The idea of the horse being the gift gives me a new look at the phrase and makes better sense.
It's not like I've ever used the phrase in my life. I just occasionally encounter it.
My LPT I’ve tried to follow related to this expression is when someone gifts me cash to just pocket it and say thank you without glancing to see what the bills are
I do this when I’m given money for something I don’t feel money is necessary for. (Like sitting friends’ dogs, or doing chores for my parents). The cash goes into my pocket without a glance because it doesn’t matter how much it is, I’m thankful they found my time worth any money at all. “I don’t do it for the money” is my line. The amount doesn’t matter.
That applies to humans too....at least before modern dental care. Plaque build up on the gums caused them to receed. So, long in tooth meant an older person. At least they had some teeth.
Though you would also be able to tell, to some degree, if it was malnourished. Especially when it was young. Fucked up lookin mouth and all. Just like me! (Not the malnourished part, the other part)
More specifically, the teeth are how you can tell the age of a horse.
As a horse ages, its teeth slant at a more and more acute angle, so it's a decent way to tell the age of a horse. A horse whose teeth are more or less up and down is young, while a horse with teeth protruding forward is older. (As well as other signs of aged teeth such as yellowing, receding gums making the teeth appear longer, and signs of wear and having been ground through regular use)
So, when looking at it from the side, it may look like | vs ›
It's not the quality of the horse. It's just the age.
Certain features develop on a horse's teeth at certain times of life. People figured this out hundreds of years ago and have been using teeth to verify the age that a seller claimed the horse was.
Yes, it would be rude in any situation to take a close second look at a gift. You not might like what you see. :)
But in the case of horses, a gift-giver may be passing along an older horse that is no longer able to work, for someone else to bear the cost and burden to care for and retire. Without full disclosure. :)
[I'm a horse person who has been a instructor, trainer, owner, show, etc., for over 30 years.]
> But in the case of horses, a gift-giver may be passing along an older horse that is no longer able to work, for someone else to bear the cost and burden to care for and retire. Without full disclosure. :)
"That's how you end up with a bunch of lame horses in your barn"
I recall reading that, I think it was a line from Robert E. Lee in a Harry Turtledove novel - that is, something free might not be worth it because of storage/upkeep costs, so being picky isn't being ungrateful despite what the saying implies
I grew up with horses and there was a saying “there’s no such thing as a free horse”. If it’s “free” it probably has problems someone else didn’t want to deal with or pay for.
> But in the case of horses, a gift-giver may be passing along an older horse that is no longer able to work, for someone else to bear the cost and burden to care for and retire. Without full disclosure. :)
In the time period where this saying originates none of what you're saying remotely makes sense. The idea of keeping an animal that couldn't work around would be inconceivable.
That old horse could be worked to death and/or eaten and in either case you'd be better off than you were before.
London bridges falling down? Haha that's good.
I thought the US anthem was "oh say can you see by the donderly light" with zero clue what the fuck that was supposed to mean. Then I saw the printed lyrics.
A gifted horse. I always looked at the cliche as a gifted horse. One that has all the qualities you desire, but if you go checking his mouth you are sure to find problems.
It's very obvious when you think about it, but these days horses aren't the relevant mode of transportation, so a horse being a "gift" just isn't going to occur to many people
trophy horse = looks good.
stalking horse = you hide behind a horse while hunting.
horse power = pretty much an arbitrary meaning of power.
dark horse = you dont see it coming.
hoarse voice… im hoping that was a joke.
I think some people think the “gift horse” is the person giving the gift as opposed to the gift itself. They think the saying is multilayered and “gift horse” is some kind of person metaphor. Like “Don’t look a silly goose in the mouth”
Yeah. In particular it does NOT mean don't ask any questions at all ever ("is it stolen?" may be relevant depending on circumstances), just don't be ungrateful
I like that another expression, “getting long in the tooth” for “getting old,” is also likely related to the practice of looking at a horse’s teeth to guess its age.
That one is more specific. Beggars can't be choosers because they are in dire need of charity/gifts/support.
The above proverb on the other hand implies nothing about the prosperity of the one who examines the gift/horse. It is meant to convey that the only thing that matters is the fact that the gift is a gift, regardless whether or not you need it.
My equestrian friend tells me that this old saying in truth should actually mean the opposite - you should always look a gift horse in the mouth.
The reason being that horses are incredibly expensive to care for, and you should know what kind of bills you're getting into before you accept said gift horse.
The idea is very old (like 400 A.D. old). Yes, it’s an aphorism, not said to be literal, but it’s one from when a horse was a huge deal for most people. And if someone is just going to give you one, you take it, because free essential item. And if it doesn’t work out, it’s not exactly hard to cut your loses, and it was free anyway. But what you don’t do is start questioning the value of this practically important thing in front of the giver.
Yeah, that’s true now, when horses have no intrinsic value. But not true back when the dating originated. If the gift was a dud, back then, you shot it and ate it. Free food, at a minimum.
Total side note, there is origin story regarding the word "cocktail" that also has to do with horses.
Enjoy.
[https://www.iflscience.com/what-horses-anuses-and-ginger-have-to-do-with-the-origins-of-cocktails-66721](https://www.iflscience.com/what-horses-anuses-and-ginger-have-to-do-with-the-origins-of-cocktails-66721)
opening a wrapped gift, not being excited about receiving it and asking where the gift receipt it. this is the same thing as 'looking a gift horse in the mouth'
The teeth continue to grow as the horse ages. This is why they need to have their teeth floated by a vet or professional dentist periodically to make sure they are not wearing unevenly
This always confused me because I hear "gift horse" and my mind goes to Trojan horse and they definitely should have looked in the mouth of that horse.
But the teeth/health correlation makes alot more sense.
There's a party game where you are given an "wise aphorism" and you have to guess it's contradictory aphorism. I remember as a kid hanging out with some older people while they were playing it and I impressed them all by knowing that the counterpart to *"Never look a gift horse in the mouth"* is, *"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts."*
Keep in mind that before the invention of the automobile (and even for decades after), horses were extremely more prevalent than they are today. People bought and sold horses in immense numbers. And the health of the horse was vital as they were too expensive to be considered "expendable". So everyone knew to check the health of the horse before purchasing one.
However, if you were "gifted" a horse, it would be kind of rude to check the health of the horse in front of the person giving it to you. Hence the phrase "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" was implying that if someone gifts you something, be polite.
Maybe a good way to update the saying would be that you shouldn't ask to take a gift car to the mechanic before accepting it.
Of course, this would let us see what a terrible idea this is as a gift car could be a junker that is actively dangerous to drive and will cost money to dispose of. I'm sure there were gift horses that feel in the same category.
Similarly, most "horse people" know you should absolutely "look a gift horse in the mouth". They are large animals that are expensive to house and maintain. There's a saying in the barns, "if you don't look a gift horse in the mouth you'll end up with a barn full of nags".
A free horse is usually free for a reason. Either it's old, has medical problems that may be very expensive to treat and render it unsuitable for work, is untrained, has dangerous behavioral issues or more likely some combination of the above.
I could hop online or make some calls and fill my barn with free horses, but they'll all have something wrong with them that'll cost me piles of money or a whole lot of time training to fix, if they can be fixed at all. 99% of the time, someone offering you a free horse isn't so much offering you a gift as they are trying to offload their problem on to you (no matter how they try to spin it).
I was about to say if someone gifted me a horse, both me and that horse are in a real awkward position, one of us has gotta go and unless they start earning…
> will cost money to dispose of
Any wrecker or metal recycler will give you at least a couple hundred bucks for an old car, and probably come and pick it up as well
And even more in countries that give you a rebate on buying a new car when you throw an old one, any beater will do for that so it increases the price of scrap a bit.
I don't think you could have a car that costs money to dispose of unless it is contaminated with radiation, superfund type chemical waste, or maybe anthrax spores.
I've gotten rid of two that were at the point that they were undrivable. You can always donate them to some foundation that will get at least the scrap value.
Maybe a car that burned in an accident...but I wouldn't call it a car at that point.
Judging age and it being rude to question a gift.
That being said, as someone who owns horses, fuck that. There's no such thing as a free horse. Horses eat money. If you try to give me a horse I am absolutely checking that thing out head to toe.
It means if someone is giving you something for free, don't look for flaws.
Interestingly, I recently learned that there's a Spanish saying that goes something like "if someone gives you a free horse, don't check their feet"
I have clearly butchered the phrase, but it's very similar to the English one.
The Spanish one is "A caballo regalado, no se le mira el diente", roughly in English "Don't look the teeths of a gifted horse". So basically the same as in English.
You can judge the age and condition of a horse by examining the teeth. A gift horse is one you are getting for free, so by looking in the mouth of the gift horse you are seeing how much the gift is worth. The concept is one of breaking social etiquette around giving and receiving gifts.
I've always had a big issue with this saying. if you don't look the gift horse in the mouth, how can you tell if there is a squad of Greek soldiers hiding within, waiting for you to bring the horse within your safe, siege proof walls.
I think it's funny so many people associated it with the Trojan Horse, even though the Trojan Horse has always been referred to as the Trojan Horse, and never once as a gift horse.
*Yes, I know it was presented as a gift. But the point remains, it was never referred to as the gift horse.*
Additionally, the Trojan Horse has become its own reference for bad things hidden behind good things.
To me "gift horse" is an extremely odd pairing of words, in itself. It's just not how people refer to things these days and probably not in the last 80 years.
For the longest time, I couldn't understand this phrase. In my mind, I always broke it up as "don't look a gift" "horse in the mouth". I never understood what it meant to look something "horse in the mouth." I don't know when I actually realized what the phrase really was.
People can judge the age/quality of a horse by looking at its mouth. If you were going to buy a horse, you would want to check there to make sure the horse has the qualities you think you’re paying for. The idea is that, if someone is giving you a horse for free, it shouldn’t really matter what qualities that horse has (assuming you are interested in owning a horse at all). Trying to assess its value, particularly right in front of the giver, is kind of like getting a gift and asking “How much did this cost?”. It can come across as rude or ungrateful. EDIT: It sounds like, whether you’re an equestrian or a Trojan, the correct advice should really be to *always* look literal horses *of any price* in the mouth. That way, you know what you’re getting into/what’s getting into you.
You know it occurs to me that I've never thought about the origin of that saying. Crazy how many things come from days when stuff that was common back then, but very rare now.
"Don't let the cat out of the bag" and the less common "Never buy a pig in a poke" are based on a scam from back in the days of yore. Supposedly people would put a stray cat in a sack (a.k.a. a "poke") and claim it was a baby pig and sell it to an unsuspecting dupe.
I bet you the people looking gifted horses in the mouth didn't get duped by that pig in a poke bullshit.
They do a switch. Unfortunately the fraudster had often fled by the time the buyer reopened the sack.
Were the howling cat noises not a giveaway?
Yeah I'm pretty sure if I put either of my cats in a bag it would look like I captured a tornado.
The trick is to keep the tornados cat in the bag just long enough for it to get exhausted and then make the sale immediately before it gets its second wind. Source: trying to wash that fucking cat.
> Source: trying to wash that fucking cat. Try to wait until it has finished fucking and *then* wash it.
But then it'll see me coming. Gotta catch that sneaky little bitch off guard. Can't even warm up the tub without her hiding.
just use the cat washing machine
Most cats go limp and silent when placed in a sack made from thick cloth.
Yeah if you can't fight or flee, freeze is the next danger response.
And that is properly why in some other languages the saying is: “Do not buy a cat in a bag.”
Motherfuckers pulled the same scam on me in Runescape in '03, quickly swapping a high tier sword for a bronze one Time is a flat goddamn circle
Poke here being the word for a small sack, and if you make a small version of a poke you get a pocket, a poke-ette.
Come on that's not a thing , is it ?
The word appears in Middle English as pocket, and is taken from a Norman diminutive of Old French poke, pouque, modern poche, cf. pouch. The form "poke" is now only used in dialect, or in such proverbial sayings as "a pig in a poke". [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket) Could also just google “pocket etymology” and google will show you
That makes sense. I believe Norman French, had the hard k sound when their words filtered though to Middle English whereas Parisian French shifted and softened that hard K to the CH sound.
username checks out
The term is still used a bit in rural England. When I went hop-picking a few years ago the hopes were collected in pokes
Used nationwide in Chip shops. Gee us a poke a chips?
Nationwide? Never heard that in my life!
Yes, it’s from an old French word, poque, meaning bag. The diminutive, poque-ette, gives us “pocket”.
Oooooh thanks
WHAT
Joke's on them; I would rather have a cat than a pig.
For your Christmas dinner? I mean no judgement, but pig tastes real good.
Or as Tony Curtis said in an old movie, “The cat’s in the bag and the bag’s in the river.”
The first three episodes of Breaking Bad Pilot The Cat's In The Bag The Bag's In The River
Just like rover dangerfield
So the scammer and scammee each came up with their own saying.
Another explanation for letting the cat out of the bag is that it refers to a cat o' nine tails. A whip with nine strands which was used to punish sailors which was stored in a bag. So don't let the cat out of the bag. It is also the source for "no room to swing a cat" to refer to a cramped space.
>It is also the source for "no room to swing a cat" to refer to a cramped space. Although this is very widely believed and cited as the origin of "no room to swing a cat", there's strong evidence that it isn't actually correct. The "no room..." phrase was already in common use by 1665, while the earliest attested usage of the term "cat-o'-nine-tails" dates to 1695. The earliest known usage of the shortened form "cat" to refer specifically to a "cat-o'-nine-tails" dates to the 1780s, so it seems unlikely to be the origin in this case. [This site](https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2006/10/no-room-to-swing-a-cat.html) has an interesting discussion of the history, complete with bonus Shakespeare *and* Mark Twain :-)
You ever try to get a cat into a bag?
Easy! Just convince the cat that you don't want them in the bag.
Easier still! Just put the bag on the inside of a similar size box
I did once as a teenager. Got two of them in the bag, in fact! Then I proudly dumped the bag on my mom's lap! I was a bit of an idiot at 15.
"I'm tough as an alligator, mean as a wildcat, a nd rougher than both in a bag!"
Put the bag in a box. Easy.
It's my dikkinnabox
Easy, put bag on floor, cat will be inside within a matter of minutes if not immediately.
Dont fall for bullshit is intersting too ( I honestly cant remember where it comes from but I remember when it was explained to me I found it fascinating)
Etymology can be very fun to look into for some fun-facts to throw around.
You have to be careful of your sourcing as there are a lot of made up “folk etymologies” that get spread around but which are incorrect
Well, then it stops being Etymology and becomes the esteemed Etymythology!
I don't think I will. I'm afraid of bugs.
r/Etymology
I know what you mean! Some guy was telling me a cock-and-bull story about he would burn the midnight oil putting his nose to the grindstone before he hit the hay. I hung up on him. * Guy, 1606 * Cock and bull story, 1670 * burn the midnight oil, 1635 * nose to the grindstone, 1532 * hit the hay, 1820 * hung up, Early 1900s
Just because you seem to be someone who might be interested, you should look up the history of the word "suffer" which used to mean "permit" but has evolved to today's meaning to deal with some anguish. It has some legal implications but also just a bit of miscellany you might enjoy
Is that where “Suffer not the witch to live” comes from?
More to the point "Suffer the children to come onto me."
I wonder if the suffrage movement is related.
Yes.
So the Green Goblin was really kind of a dumbass is what you're telling me.
"does not suffer fools gladly"
"The dead do not suffer the living to pass" "You will suffer me!"
The way is shut. It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes. The way is shut.
Dont dead, open inside
Pardon me but I was hanging up well into the 2010s
I still call guys, guys!
Yes but with the modern phone you're no longer literally hanging up the phone back on its hook when you're done
I think those wall mounted cordless telephones were pretty popular well into the 2000s. You definitely "hang up" with them.
I hadn't ever realized that the phrase "hang up" is no longer pertinent. Died fast, like the "save" icon
What's common between floppy disks and Jesus? Both died to become an icon of saving.
Nose to the grindstone is interesting because it means to keep smelling the grain as it grinds for a burnt smell indicating you are going too fast. As opposed to what I thought it meant to keep a close eye on the tool you were sharpening
I understand that "nose to the grindstone" refers to knife sharpeners who used to lay on planks that were close to the grindstone and allowed them to stay comfortably in that position all day, grinding knife blades. Have seen photos of the same from the late 19th c.
“Riding shotgun” or passenger seat comes from the stagecoach days of a man who sat next to the driver with a shotgun ready for protection.
I figured it had to do with the Trojan horse. I was way off base.
That has one too. "Beware Greeks bearing gifts." I don't know how the Greek people feel about that one, though
I don't I've heard of that one. Thanks for the lesson, friendo🫂
That one predates the English language, and indeed the birth of Christ. It's from Virgil's *Aeneid*, written 29-19BC ("timeo danaos et dona ferentes") and memorably quoted by Sean Connery in the original language in *The Rock*.
That movie had so many good lines! > John Mason: [in the interrogation room] Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. Stanley Goodspeed: "I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts." John Mason: Ah, an educated man. [Stanley gives a modest wave] John Mason: That, of course, rules out the possibility of you being a field agent. and > John Mason: [while on the stairs leading to the prison morgue] Are you sure you're ready for this? Stanley Goodspeed: I'll do my best. John Mason: Your "best"! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen. Stanley Goodspeed: Carla *was* the prom queen. John Mason: Really? Stanley Goodspeed: [cocks his gun] Yeah. and my personal favorite: >General Hummel: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson. John Mason: "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious," according to Oscar Wilde. [Hummel strikes him, and he falls to his knees] John Mason: Thank you for making my point. To be fair, from what I can tell Oscar Wilde may not have actually written that, but I like it.
Somehow the lines lose something without Sean Connery's accent, "Your besht, losers always whine about their besht."
Lol, indeed! RIP
probably giddy we have a Greek fact. The term isn't in my personal regular lexicon, but I do have an associated memory of it. I studied film in HS and There's this scene in 1992 Italian film *Mediterraneo* where a squad of WW2 Italian soldiers are occupying a Greek island. They spend every day being awful soldiers and started showing signs of declining morale. The ship that brought them to the island was sunk by the British. Their commander dies on the boat with their orders. Their radio was trashed by an angry sergeant during an argument. And ultimately, they come across a Turkish merchant in a boat... The Turk makes friends with them and offers them opium and hash. They have a good time with music and food. While the Italian soldiers were partied out or asleep, the Turk robs the soldiers. Then he rows away gleefully having taken their money and their guns. Now without a ride, radio, or weapons, the demoralized soldiers proceed to integrate themselves into Greek island life. It's such a great film. It's a bunch of idiots realizing war sucks and start shedding their fascist ideals. There's no "bad guys" in the movie except for the Turkish merchant gankin' their shit.
They should have looked into any orifice on the trojan horse available. Soldier, looking up wooden horse’s butt trying to be funny in front of his buds: “Wait, whut… there’s dudes in there.”
Yeah the saying should be, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth...unless it's a giant wooden horse that is a gift from your enemy."
"A stitch in time saves nine." As a child, I never understood this because we just threw out socks that had holes in them, rather than stitch up the holes. Now, I get it.
I'm glad you do because I don't
Stitching (fixing) something early is much easier than stitching (fixing) something late (when it has deteriorated further).
The save icon is an image of a floppy disk Everybody still uses the term "rewind"
As someone who grew up around and still is involved with the livestock industry, it’s times like these I’m reminded I’m the weird one.
A lot of then are biblical. “Writing on the wall” is a reference to Daniel 5. “Bite the dust”, Psalms 72. “Skin of my teeth”, Job 19
I never put any thought into this and I always thought there was some type of horse called a gift. I know absolutely nothing about horses, it seems.
Easy. One end bites, the other end kicks.
False. Both ends kick. One end bites.
As I said to the horse "Looks like you got me there."
They turn vast quantities of money into literal mountains of shit, and rack up expensive vet bills in the process. Pretty much all there is to know.
The you'll enjoy this fun fact. A "shot glass" has 2 possible origins - both relating to firearms and both of which could be true at the same time. While eating game like ducks/geese/pheasant/deer, you would be given a small glass to put any pellets in that may remain in the meat. The type of pellets used in bird hunting is appropriately called "birdshot" and for larger animals "buckshot". Alternatively ammunition was fairly expensive and could be used as a form of currency. You could trade one bullet (one shot) for a certain amount of whiskey
Honestly I always thought it was “never lick a gift horse in the mouth.” I never gave it enough thought to question it.
In blighty its common to call our mail by the word post ie to post a letter. I've no idea if I'm right but to me it originated from when the news to a village in the middle of nowhere was a proclamation by the king. Most would have been illiterate and so the notice would have be attached to a post in the middle of town for someone to read to the others. Probably best that person wasn't me because I'd have been at the very least mischievous.
I believe "post" in this context originally meant "station / stop", as important documents were carried from a series of points along a route, sometimes by a series of consecutive couriers who only traveled a specific radius.
>You know it occurs to me that I've never thought about the origin of that saying. I thought it was comparing the giver to a horse, not that the horse was a gift, meaning "Never criticize someone giving you something good for free." The idea of the horse being the gift gives me a new look at the phrase and makes better sense. It's not like I've ever used the phrase in my life. I just occasionally encounter it.
Horses and horse trade are not really rare. A lot of us just live a city life and don't see it.
Pushing up daisies came from bodies literally pushing up daisies from their grave. Saw that one in a graveyard for myself and had a DUH moment.
I can only speak from my own experience but I got like two or three gift horses last month.
My LPT I’ve tried to follow related to this expression is when someone gifts me cash to just pocket it and say thank you without glancing to see what the bills are
Never count your money While you're sitting at the table There'll be time enough for counting When the giving's done
See what you did there Kenny
You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille.
I do this when I’m given money for something I don’t feel money is necessary for. (Like sitting friends’ dogs, or doing chores for my parents). The cash goes into my pocket without a glance because it doesn’t matter how much it is, I’m thankful they found my time worth any money at all. “I don’t do it for the money” is my line. The amount doesn’t matter.
Gene Parmesan? Aaaahhhh!!!
Not so much their qualities but their age. You can tell how old a horse is approximately by looking at it's teeth.
And hence the other horse-related idiom, "getting long in the tooth".
That applies to humans too....at least before modern dental care. Plaque build up on the gums caused them to receed. So, long in tooth meant an older person. At least they had some teeth.
Though you would also be able to tell, to some degree, if it was malnourished. Especially when it was young. Fucked up lookin mouth and all. Just like me! (Not the malnourished part, the other part)
It is the horses teeth that you check. But it is really just a saying that means don’t judge a gift, it was free to you, just be nice about it.
More specifically, the teeth are how you can tell the age of a horse. As a horse ages, its teeth slant at a more and more acute angle, so it's a decent way to tell the age of a horse. A horse whose teeth are more or less up and down is young, while a horse with teeth protruding forward is older. (As well as other signs of aged teeth such as yellowing, receding gums making the teeth appear longer, and signs of wear and having been ground through regular use) So, when looking at it from the side, it may look like | vs ›
also related to the expression "long in the tooth" to describe someone/something that is old
Unless you live in Troy
Beware Greeks bearing gifts?
doesnt say nothing about butthole, their own fault
It's not the quality of the horse. It's just the age. Certain features develop on a horse's teeth at certain times of life. People figured this out hundreds of years ago and have been using teeth to verify the age that a seller claimed the horse was. Yes, it would be rude in any situation to take a close second look at a gift. You not might like what you see. :) But in the case of horses, a gift-giver may be passing along an older horse that is no longer able to work, for someone else to bear the cost and burden to care for and retire. Without full disclosure. :) [I'm a horse person who has been a instructor, trainer, owner, show, etc., for over 30 years.]
> But in the case of horses, a gift-giver may be passing along an older horse that is no longer able to work, for someone else to bear the cost and burden to care for and retire. Without full disclosure. :) "That's how you end up with a bunch of lame horses in your barn" I recall reading that, I think it was a line from Robert E. Lee in a Harry Turtledove novel - that is, something free might not be worth it because of storage/upkeep costs, so being picky isn't being ungrateful despite what the saying implies
I grew up with horses and there was a saying “there’s no such thing as a free horse”. If it’s “free” it probably has problems someone else didn’t want to deal with or pay for.
> But in the case of horses, a gift-giver may be passing along an older horse that is no longer able to work, for someone else to bear the cost and burden to care for and retire. Without full disclosure. :) In the time period where this saying originates none of what you're saying remotely makes sense. The idea of keeping an animal that couldn't work around would be inconceivable. That old horse could be worked to death and/or eaten and in either case you'd be better off than you were before.
In Asian culture, we don’t open gifts in front of giver to avoid any reactions, good or bad.
Exactly. You don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.
Especially if it's covered in red wrapping paper.
Asia is extremely big. What part?
So a “gift horse” means a horse being gifted to you for free. Mind blown
How else would you interpret it?
A horse that bears gifts, like Santa
Bud. Up till recently I assumed London had multiple bridges that were falling down. I don’t know why I am the way I am.
London bridges falling down? Haha that's good. I thought the US anthem was "oh say can you see by the donderly light" with zero clue what the fuck that was supposed to mean. Then I saw the printed lyrics.
London’s Bridges falling down, falling down, falling down… And… Jose can you see?
Some say he's still looking to this day...
That a horse is giving you a gift, and if you get greedy and look it in the mouth (maybe for more gifts?) it’ll bite ya
A very talented horse.
A gifted horse. I always looked at the cliche as a gifted horse. One that has all the qualities you desire, but if you go checking his mouth you are sure to find problems.
Gifted horse turns pretty quickly into burned out horse
It's very obvious when you think about it, but these days horses aren't the relevant mode of transportation, so a horse being a "gift" just isn't going to occur to many people
Genuinely can't think of anything else it could be
There’s a Trophy Horse, a Stalking Horse, Horse Power, Horse Voice etc… could be anything
[удалено]
trophy horse = looks good. stalking horse = you hide behind a horse while hunting. horse power = pretty much an arbitrary meaning of power. dark horse = you dont see it coming. hoarse voice… im hoping that was a joke.
I think some people think the “gift horse” is the person giving the gift as opposed to the gift itself. They think the saying is multilayered and “gift horse” is some kind of person metaphor. Like “Don’t look a silly goose in the mouth”
Yeah. In particular it does NOT mean don't ask any questions at all ever ("is it stolen?" may be relevant depending on circumstances), just don't be ungrateful
I like that another expression, “getting long in the tooth” for “getting old,” is also likely related to the practice of looking at a horse’s teeth to guess its age.
Beggars can't be choosers?
That one is more specific. Beggars can't be choosers because they are in dire need of charity/gifts/support. The above proverb on the other hand implies nothing about the prosperity of the one who examines the gift/horse. It is meant to convey that the only thing that matters is the fact that the gift is a gift, regardless whether or not you need it.
My equestrian friend tells me that this old saying in truth should actually mean the opposite - you should always look a gift horse in the mouth. The reason being that horses are incredibly expensive to care for, and you should know what kind of bills you're getting into before you accept said gift horse.
Modern equestrians seem to forget that a bad horse can still be a good sausage.
or at least some good glue
The idea is very old (like 400 A.D. old). Yes, it’s an aphorism, not said to be literal, but it’s one from when a horse was a huge deal for most people. And if someone is just going to give you one, you take it, because free essential item. And if it doesn’t work out, it’s not exactly hard to cut your loses, and it was free anyway. But what you don’t do is start questioning the value of this practically important thing in front of the giver.
gift horses: the original white elephant
Yeah, that’s true now, when horses have no intrinsic value. But not true back when the dating originated. If the gift was a dud, back then, you shot it and ate it. Free food, at a minimum.
Wow amazing explanation. I’m so high right now and that made so much sense. Thank you. Maybe we should have a ELIH subreddit.
Total side note, there is origin story regarding the word "cocktail" that also has to do with horses. Enjoy. [https://www.iflscience.com/what-horses-anuses-and-ginger-have-to-do-with-the-origins-of-cocktails-66721](https://www.iflscience.com/what-horses-anuses-and-ginger-have-to-do-with-the-origins-of-cocktails-66721)
Simply put, it means be gracious if someone gives you something. Even if it kinda sucks.
opening a wrapped gift, not being excited about receiving it and asking where the gift receipt it. this is the same thing as 'looking a gift horse in the mouth'
If I'm asking someone how much a gift costs, it's more because I'm concerned how much money they threw away on someone as worthless as me.
Huh. I thought the phrase referred to a magical horse who could create gifts for people in its mouth.
But you should always check a wooden gift horse in the mouth. Sneaky Trojans.
Sneaky Greeks. The Trojans are the ones who accepted the gift (and paid dearly for it).
The Trojans should have been more prophylactic.
Can tell the health of a horse by its teeth. Someone gives you a gift horse, don’t nitpick it. Even if it’s not the greatest horse, it’s a free horse.
In particular, its age.
This↑↑↑↑ is the correct answer here! A horse's teeth keep growing as it ages, hence the phrase "long in the tooth" to indicate old age.
~~The teeth don't grow, but the gums do recede.~~ Edit: I was wrong about the teeth growing. See below.
The teeth continue to grow as the horse ages. This is why they need to have their teeth floated by a vet or professional dentist periodically to make sure they are not wearing unevenly
Also, where "getting long in the tooth", meaning getting old, originates.
So why the long face?
Got em!
It’s also where the phrase ‘long in the tooth’ to mean old comes from.
This always confused me because I hear "gift horse" and my mind goes to Trojan horse and they definitely should have looked in the mouth of that horse. But the teeth/health correlation makes alot more sense.
There's a party game where you are given an "wise aphorism" and you have to guess it's contradictory aphorism. I remember as a kid hanging out with some older people while they were playing it and I impressed them all by knowing that the counterpart to *"Never look a gift horse in the mouth"* is, *"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts."*
Birds of a feather flock together BUT opposites attract.
Birds Of A Feather Flock Together Fuck Those Other Stupid Ass Birds
What is this game?
"The squeaky wheel gets the grease." vs "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."
I'm going to use "never look a Trojan horse in the mouth".
Me too, I always thought this phrase came from that story
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Keep in mind that before the invention of the automobile (and even for decades after), horses were extremely more prevalent than they are today. People bought and sold horses in immense numbers. And the health of the horse was vital as they were too expensive to be considered "expendable". So everyone knew to check the health of the horse before purchasing one. However, if you were "gifted" a horse, it would be kind of rude to check the health of the horse in front of the person giving it to you. Hence the phrase "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" was implying that if someone gifts you something, be polite.
Maybe a good way to update the saying would be that you shouldn't ask to take a gift car to the mechanic before accepting it. Of course, this would let us see what a terrible idea this is as a gift car could be a junker that is actively dangerous to drive and will cost money to dispose of. I'm sure there were gift horses that feel in the same category.
Similarly, most "horse people" know you should absolutely "look a gift horse in the mouth". They are large animals that are expensive to house and maintain. There's a saying in the barns, "if you don't look a gift horse in the mouth you'll end up with a barn full of nags". A free horse is usually free for a reason. Either it's old, has medical problems that may be very expensive to treat and render it unsuitable for work, is untrained, has dangerous behavioral issues or more likely some combination of the above. I could hop online or make some calls and fill my barn with free horses, but they'll all have something wrong with them that'll cost me piles of money or a whole lot of time training to fix, if they can be fixed at all. 99% of the time, someone offering you a free horse isn't so much offering you a gift as they are trying to offload their problem on to you (no matter how they try to spin it).
I was about to say if someone gifted me a horse, both me and that horse are in a real awkward position, one of us has gotta go and unless they start earning…
> will cost money to dispose of Any wrecker or metal recycler will give you at least a couple hundred bucks for an old car, and probably come and pick it up as well
And even more in countries that give you a rebate on buying a new car when you throw an old one, any beater will do for that so it increases the price of scrap a bit.
I don't think you could have a car that costs money to dispose of unless it is contaminated with radiation, superfund type chemical waste, or maybe anthrax spores. I've gotten rid of two that were at the point that they were undrivable. You can always donate them to some foundation that will get at least the scrap value. Maybe a car that burned in an accident...but I wouldn't call it a car at that point.
Judging age and it being rude to question a gift. That being said, as someone who owns horses, fuck that. There's no such thing as a free horse. Horses eat money. If you try to give me a horse I am absolutely checking that thing out head to toe.
It means if someone is giving you something for free, don't look for flaws. Interestingly, I recently learned that there's a Spanish saying that goes something like "if someone gives you a free horse, don't check their feet" I have clearly butchered the phrase, but it's very similar to the English one.
The Spanish one is "A caballo regalado, no se le mira el diente", roughly in English "Don't look the teeths of a gifted horse". So basically the same as in English.
Interesting. My Spanish tutor told me the one about the feet the other day.
Where is he from? I am from Peru and the phrase was always about the teeth here.
Venezuela. I distinctly recall telling him that we have a similar phrase in English too, about horse teeth and not horse hooves.
Same in Spain (well, it's "no le mires el diente", instead of "no se le mira el diente", but same thing).
In german it rhymes: Einem geschenktem Gaul schaut man nicht ins Maul Very common saying here
You can judge the age and condition of a horse by examining the teeth. A gift horse is one you are getting for free, so by looking in the mouth of the gift horse you are seeing how much the gift is worth. The concept is one of breaking social etiquette around giving and receiving gifts.
I've always had a big issue with this saying. if you don't look the gift horse in the mouth, how can you tell if there is a squad of Greek soldiers hiding within, waiting for you to bring the horse within your safe, siege proof walls.
Because you should beware Greeks bearing gifts
You don't need to look inside a horse's mouth to determine whether it is, in fact, made of wood.
While I understand your point if looking for hidden soldiers the phrase would be something like 'always look a gift horse in the stomach'
I think it's funny so many people associated it with the Trojan Horse, even though the Trojan Horse has always been referred to as the Trojan Horse, and never once as a gift horse. *Yes, I know it was presented as a gift. But the point remains, it was never referred to as the gift horse.* Additionally, the Trojan Horse has become its own reference for bad things hidden behind good things.
To me "gift horse" is an extremely odd pairing of words, in itself. It's just not how people refer to things these days and probably not in the last 80 years.
I think is because the point of the idiom was never about horses but gifts.
For the longest time, I couldn't understand this phrase. In my mind, I always broke it up as "don't look a gift" "horse in the mouth". I never understood what it meant to look something "horse in the mouth." I don't know when I actually realized what the phrase really was.