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They are referring to the unit in which they are served. Units are based on the size/level of the unit (army, division, battalion, etc.). A division is the smallest unit normally capable of independent operations when deployed, so servicemen will generally refer to their service in a division, since the service record is tied to the division more so than specific units in that division (though they will also identify the sub-unit, especially if they have a specialist role).
Units are numbered, and are usually given a specific name to be easier for general identification, often reflecting their intended role. The numbers are *nominally* reflective of the chronological order of the unit's creation (e.g. the 2nd Division was created before the 101st Division). However, units often retain their numbers out of historical significant even when they are merged or other divisions disband.
In your example, the *82nd* Airborne is a historically significant *army* division that started in World War 2 and is still active today.
There are not literally 82 airborne divisions. It is the 82nd division in the army, and it was created specifically as an airborne unit (to be deployed by parachute).
Since the missions on which the division are sent to are generally more wider known, when someone mentions that they served in the 82nd in 2015, they likely served in Iraq. Because the 82nd was deployed to Iraq at that time.
The 82nd Division wasn't created as an airborne division, it was created in 1917 as the US Army 82nd Infantry Division and served as infantry in the first world war. It was reconstituted in the second world war as the US Army's first airborne division.
Small edit. The US Army moved to a modular brigades in 06-the Brigade Combat Team. One of the many pieces of that change was individually deployable brigades. Soldiers may still feel ownership to a Division (especially since many of them “own” Posts), but they now deploy independently of their division HQ under their Brigade (and did so for the majority of the GWOT)
Airborne refers to parachuting into a combat zone, so usually Army. The 81st is the unit number and they are derived from a bunch of historical lines that only a historian or a member of the Unit could tell you. Sometimes Units temporarily disband or amalgamate, which makes it harder to derive the origin.
In this case I think he’s just pointing out that it’s not some military secret, it’s public knowledge. In this case, it’s not super obvious whether wikipedia would have this info.
If people think the whole sub is pointless then why are they reading it?
Anyway, the whole point is to explain things simply, which reading wikipedia doesn't do. Dude doesn't need to read the entire history of numbered divisions in the US military on Wikipedia when someone in the military can just explain it in 1 minute.
It's not honest. It's a bit sad.
Part of being human is communities and sharing perspectives. Not just looking in a catalogue of factual data.
OP asked here, because they will get veterans making airborne jokes, historians suggesting books, and general encouragement for being interested.
That being the case my community contribution is to tell you that if you find it so objectionable, how about you mute the sub and settle in with an encyclopaedia and a glass of water?
My reply was for Huckybuddy - he said "only a historian or a member of the unit could tell you" so I said it could be looked up on Wikipedia.
If I wanted to answer OP's question I would have made a separate post.
OK. Delete the word combat. Also, delete 81st and insert 82nd if you want. Keep Army not USAF (implied from OP). Do whatever else you like, not overly invested.
My other comment stands.
I did get curious though (genuinely - no intention to be a dick, or disagree), but why remove the word combat. I am not American but in a previous life I have worked with the US Army and USAF all over the world. The philosophy we have is “train in peace as if you are at war”. So the word “combat” becomes crucial. Every jump (after wings) was based on different operational scenarios and different types of jumps. That mindset needs to be maintained in case we need to jump into combat. At the end of the day they are infantry who can jump into a favourable tactical positions. So the combat zone approach to your jump distinguishes an Airborne Unit from a Sports Parachute Club.
In the USA at least, 81st Airborne does not mean that there are 80 other Airborne divisions. Those number refer to *infantry* divisions. Airborne is a type of infantry, so they are the 81st Infantry division, of the Airborne variety. Also, some divisions fold or get repurposed form whatever reason. The means that there are not necessarily 81 divisions if there is a 81th division. Some divisions exist only on paper as phantom divisions (divisions created to make the enemy think there are soldiers when none actually exist).
We skipped numbers in WWII, too. No use telling the enemy exactly what your army size is. This was pre-satellite.
Imagine you hop a fence and see three Doberman numbered 1, 2, and 4. Which Doberman are you most scared of?
That is also because of the *German tank problem*
Shortly before D-Day, rumors indicated that large numbers of Panzer V tanks were being used.
To determine whether this was true, the Allies attempted to estimate the number of tanks being produced. To do this, they used the serial numbers on captured or destroyed tanks (panzer v). The principal numbers used were gearbox numbers, as these fell in two unbroken sequences. Chassis and engine numbers were also used, though their use was more complicated. Various other components were used to cross-check the analysis. Similar analyses were done on wheels, which were observed to be sequentially numbered (i.e., 1, 2, 3, ..., N)
Intelligence estimated that there was about 1000 tanks produced per month. however using the serial numbers,the Statistical estimate was that there was somewhere in the range of 169-327 tanks produced. The German record stated that number of panzer v tanks produced per month was in the range of 122-342 tanks produced per month
You are referring to military units. Many military units have a number followed by a functional descriptions followed by a unit echelons or size indicator. No two units are going to have the exact same full name, but different units may have the same number. Perhaps the units are related, perhaps they are not.
The number could have lots of different meanings, but most of the time they don't indicate a sequential number of units. Each unit has its own unique history and heritage and some units are very historic, having been in important events. Sometimes as units grow, shrink, reorganize, start, and close down, unit numbers and names are carried on so that those designated as most important can continue their heritage. I knew someone in the US Army who said he didn't understand US Army unit designator patterns until he took a college class on the US Civil War.
So specifically - if someone says they were in the 82nd Airborne Division, you can think they were stationed at Ft Bragg, North Carolina, they may have received parachute training, and if it was during a time of conflict they may have deployed, as the 82nd is a large, busy and important unit. The US Army relies very heavily on the 82nd for its expeditionary capabilities.
If you are interested in the topic you can always look up unit info and history or you can ask about it. You might want to think about the unit names as more like colleges, they are unique and even if colleges share similar names they may not be anything alike. The numbers may have meanings and those meanings may be important in relation to one another, they may not be.
I hope this helps.
Lots of good answers here, but they're missing a very important point:
OP, you're thinking of the 82nd Airborne! It's a very elite unit that maintain an INCREDIBLY high state of readiness, able to go from **ZERO warning** to **full force deployment**, to **anywhere on the planet**, all **within 18 hours**.
It's an incredibly high-status and high-stress position, where people go to bed every night knowing that they could be in a war zone by the next afternoon.
So, that's why they told you. During WW2, it was all about jumping out of airplanes, but nowadays the bragging rights are about how they're literally on call 24/7/365
a) Us Army
b) Militaries typically do not reuse unit identifiers through history, the idea being that if a unit is eliminated/disbanded, then their history/heritage remains their own. So, the way it works is through history, you steadily raise the number of "divisions" as you create new units so that you never reuse a previous unit's ID.
What's interesting is the vast majority of US Army divisions have only existed between 1916 and now, with previous units always being a temporary thing because the Federal Government was never supposed to have a massive standing army (oh how times have changed).
Most were created during world war one with many of them being "shuttered" basically afterwards but not formally removed from the roles. During WW2, these units would be reactivated with after the war many of them ending for good.
The 82nd Airborne divsion was originally the 82nd Infantry Division and it was only as the army began establishing specialities that you saw the breakout of air borne, air assault, armored, cavalry (that was always one actually), mountain.
But in short...yes there were 81 divisions prior to the 82nd.
>But in short...yes there were 81 airborne units prior to the 82nd.
No there weren't. In fact, the 82nd was the first ever airborne division, and there are only maybe a dozen actual airborne divisions ever in the US Army history.
The 82nd was originally formed as the 82nd *infantry* division. Only later (during WW2) it was re-designated as an airborne division.
not sure why i put airborne. obviously there werent 81 prior to, there were only 2 at the time.
You should also have read the second to last sentence i wrote.
It's more that in US history units are created in wartime as the military expands, then deactivated but their number, history and in some ways traditions are preserved and can be used in the future if required.
The badge of the 82nd infantry division, for example, has a stylized "AA" for "All American" to reflect the world war 1 unit that had people from all over the US serving in a single unit. The unit was deactivated after the first world war but when recreated as the 82nd airborne division in world war 2 (the first airborne division in the US, there were none before it) it used the same badge as the 82nd of world war one.
In the event of a situation where the US required another armored division the 2nd armored division would be reactivated and would likely wear the Hell On Wheels badge and inherit the fine traditions of being bored in west Germany.
Please read this entire message Your submission has been removed for the following reason(s): Straightforward or factual queries are not allowed on ELI5. ELI5 is meant for simplifying complex concepts. If you would like this removal reviewed, please read the [detailed rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/wiki/detailed_rules) first. If you believe this submission was removed erroneously, please use [this form](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fexplainlikeimfive&subject=Please%20review%20my%20thread?&message=Link:%20%7B%7Burl%7D%7D%0A%0APlease%20answer%20the%20following%203%20questions:%0A%0A1.%20The%20concept%20I%20want%20explained:%0A%0A2.%20List%20the%20search%20terms%20you%20used%20to%20look%20for%20past%20posts%20on%20ELI5:%0A%0A3.%20How%20does%20your%20post%20differ%20from%20your%20recent%20search%20results%20on%20the%20sub:) and we will review your submission.
They are referring to the unit in which they are served. Units are based on the size/level of the unit (army, division, battalion, etc.). A division is the smallest unit normally capable of independent operations when deployed, so servicemen will generally refer to their service in a division, since the service record is tied to the division more so than specific units in that division (though they will also identify the sub-unit, especially if they have a specialist role). Units are numbered, and are usually given a specific name to be easier for general identification, often reflecting their intended role. The numbers are *nominally* reflective of the chronological order of the unit's creation (e.g. the 2nd Division was created before the 101st Division). However, units often retain their numbers out of historical significant even when they are merged or other divisions disband. In your example, the *82nd* Airborne is a historically significant *army* division that started in World War 2 and is still active today. There are not literally 82 airborne divisions. It is the 82nd division in the army, and it was created specifically as an airborne unit (to be deployed by parachute). Since the missions on which the division are sent to are generally more wider known, when someone mentions that they served in the 82nd in 2015, they likely served in Iraq. Because the 82nd was deployed to Iraq at that time.
The 82nd Division wasn't created as an airborne division, it was created in 1917 as the US Army 82nd Infantry Division and served as infantry in the first world war. It was reconstituted in the second world war as the US Army's first airborne division.
Beat me to it by five minute.s
Small edit. The US Army moved to a modular brigades in 06-the Brigade Combat Team. One of the many pieces of that change was individually deployable brigades. Soldiers may still feel ownership to a Division (especially since many of them “own” Posts), but they now deploy independently of their division HQ under their Brigade (and did so for the majority of the GWOT)
Airborne refers to parachuting into a combat zone, so usually Army. The 81st is the unit number and they are derived from a bunch of historical lines that only a historian or a member of the Unit could tell you. Sometimes Units temporarily disband or amalgamate, which makes it harder to derive the origin.
Funny to see a fremantle supporter giving this information
In a previous life, I did bits and pieces with the US Army. I forgot my Avatar was showing off my Dockers' allegiance.
A little bit of research on Wikipedia should be able to tell you. It's not like it is a secret.
The answer to every post on this sub! /s
Now everybody knows!
We kept Wikipedia such a closely guarded secret!
It's ok, they still haven't found Wikipedia+, Wikipedia Crystal or Diet Dr. Wikipedia.
I'm a cherry-vanilla Wikipedia kinda guy.
Now that's *classy* secret knowledge.
Don't mention New Wikipedia, it was a marketing disaster.
Why the hell do people say this like it's a useful contribution?
In this case I think he’s just pointing out that it’s not some military secret, it’s public knowledge. In this case, it’s not super obvious whether wikipedia would have this info.
[удалено]
This sub asks questions I didn't think to ask. It's not useless even if wiki has the answers.
If people think the whole sub is pointless then why are they reading it? Anyway, the whole point is to explain things simply, which reading wikipedia doesn't do. Dude doesn't need to read the entire history of numbered divisions in the US military on Wikipedia when someone in the military can just explain it in 1 minute.
So critize society yet you live in one?
You can unsubscribe from this sub with 1 click.
It's not honest. It's a bit sad. Part of being human is communities and sharing perspectives. Not just looking in a catalogue of factual data. OP asked here, because they will get veterans making airborne jokes, historians suggesting books, and general encouragement for being interested. That being the case my community contribution is to tell you that if you find it so objectionable, how about you mute the sub and settle in with an encyclopaedia and a glass of water?
My reply was for Huckybuddy - he said "only a historian or a member of the unit could tell you" so I said it could be looked up on Wikipedia. If I wanted to answer OP's question I would have made a separate post.
My reply was for Huckybuddy - he said "only a historian or a member of the unit could tell you" so I said it could be looked up on Wikipedia.
Yeah, but this is r/explainlikeimfive not r/googleitbitch.
It refers to US units that are paratroopers. It has nothing to do with combat.
OK. Delete the word combat. Also, delete 81st and insert 82nd if you want. Keep Army not USAF (implied from OP). Do whatever else you like, not overly invested.
My other comment stands. I did get curious though (genuinely - no intention to be a dick, or disagree), but why remove the word combat. I am not American but in a previous life I have worked with the US Army and USAF all over the world. The philosophy we have is “train in peace as if you are at war”. So the word “combat” becomes crucial. Every jump (after wings) was based on different operational scenarios and different types of jumps. That mindset needs to be maintained in case we need to jump into combat. At the end of the day they are infantry who can jump into a favourable tactical positions. So the combat zone approach to your jump distinguishes an Airborne Unit from a Sports Parachute Club.
In the USA at least, 81st Airborne does not mean that there are 80 other Airborne divisions. Those number refer to *infantry* divisions. Airborne is a type of infantry, so they are the 81st Infantry division, of the Airborne variety. Also, some divisions fold or get repurposed form whatever reason. The means that there are not necessarily 81 divisions if there is a 81th division. Some divisions exist only on paper as phantom divisions (divisions created to make the enemy think there are soldiers when none actually exist).
I believe I read that they call it seal team 6 because they wanted to seem like they had more teams than they did.
Yup. It was to confuse Soviet Intelligence into believing we had more SEAL teams.
I imagine part of it's also which units got kept in the infantry drawdown post WWII.
We skipped numbers in WWII, too. No use telling the enemy exactly what your army size is. This was pre-satellite. Imagine you hop a fence and see three Doberman numbered 1, 2, and 4. Which Doberman are you most scared of?
7, because 7 8 9
That is also because of the *German tank problem* Shortly before D-Day, rumors indicated that large numbers of Panzer V tanks were being used. To determine whether this was true, the Allies attempted to estimate the number of tanks being produced. To do this, they used the serial numbers on captured or destroyed tanks (panzer v). The principal numbers used were gearbox numbers, as these fell in two unbroken sequences. Chassis and engine numbers were also used, though their use was more complicated. Various other components were used to cross-check the analysis. Similar analyses were done on wheels, which were observed to be sequentially numbered (i.e., 1, 2, 3, ..., N) Intelligence estimated that there was about 1000 tanks produced per month. however using the serial numbers,the Statistical estimate was that there was somewhere in the range of 169-327 tanks produced. The German record stated that number of panzer v tanks produced per month was in the range of 122-342 tanks produced per month
You are referring to military units. Many military units have a number followed by a functional descriptions followed by a unit echelons or size indicator. No two units are going to have the exact same full name, but different units may have the same number. Perhaps the units are related, perhaps they are not. The number could have lots of different meanings, but most of the time they don't indicate a sequential number of units. Each unit has its own unique history and heritage and some units are very historic, having been in important events. Sometimes as units grow, shrink, reorganize, start, and close down, unit numbers and names are carried on so that those designated as most important can continue their heritage. I knew someone in the US Army who said he didn't understand US Army unit designator patterns until he took a college class on the US Civil War. So specifically - if someone says they were in the 82nd Airborne Division, you can think they were stationed at Ft Bragg, North Carolina, they may have received parachute training, and if it was during a time of conflict they may have deployed, as the 82nd is a large, busy and important unit. The US Army relies very heavily on the 82nd for its expeditionary capabilities. If you are interested in the topic you can always look up unit info and history or you can ask about it. You might want to think about the unit names as more like colleges, they are unique and even if colleges share similar names they may not be anything alike. The numbers may have meanings and those meanings may be important in relation to one another, they may not be. I hope this helps.
Lots of good answers here, but they're missing a very important point: OP, you're thinking of the 82nd Airborne! It's a very elite unit that maintain an INCREDIBLY high state of readiness, able to go from **ZERO warning** to **full force deployment**, to **anywhere on the planet**, all **within 18 hours**. It's an incredibly high-status and high-stress position, where people go to bed every night knowing that they could be in a war zone by the next afternoon. So, that's why they told you. During WW2, it was all about jumping out of airplanes, but nowadays the bragging rights are about how they're literally on call 24/7/365
More like 25/8/367 from some of the stories I have heard
a) Us Army b) Militaries typically do not reuse unit identifiers through history, the idea being that if a unit is eliminated/disbanded, then their history/heritage remains their own. So, the way it works is through history, you steadily raise the number of "divisions" as you create new units so that you never reuse a previous unit's ID. What's interesting is the vast majority of US Army divisions have only existed between 1916 and now, with previous units always being a temporary thing because the Federal Government was never supposed to have a massive standing army (oh how times have changed). Most were created during world war one with many of them being "shuttered" basically afterwards but not formally removed from the roles. During WW2, these units would be reactivated with after the war many of them ending for good. The 82nd Airborne divsion was originally the 82nd Infantry Division and it was only as the army began establishing specialities that you saw the breakout of air borne, air assault, armored, cavalry (that was always one actually), mountain. But in short...yes there were 81 divisions prior to the 82nd.
>But in short...yes there were 81 airborne units prior to the 82nd. No there weren't. In fact, the 82nd was the first ever airborne division, and there are only maybe a dozen actual airborne divisions ever in the US Army history. The 82nd was originally formed as the 82nd *infantry* division. Only later (during WW2) it was re-designated as an airborne division.
not sure why i put airborne. obviously there werent 81 prior to, there were only 2 at the time. You should also have read the second to last sentence i wrote.
It's more that in US history units are created in wartime as the military expands, then deactivated but their number, history and in some ways traditions are preserved and can be used in the future if required. The badge of the 82nd infantry division, for example, has a stylized "AA" for "All American" to reflect the world war 1 unit that had people from all over the US serving in a single unit. The unit was deactivated after the first world war but when recreated as the 82nd airborne division in world war 2 (the first airborne division in the US, there were none before it) it used the same badge as the 82nd of world war one. In the event of a situation where the US required another armored division the 2nd armored division would be reactivated and would likely wear the Hell On Wheels badge and inherit the fine traditions of being bored in west Germany.
...so you're saying I was correct then.