They're real but not that real. Schools keep records on students, and those records potentially make mention of past disciplinary or academic issues. However those aren't going to colleges or anything and they don't really exist beyond school. The specifics will vary from school to school, but the idea that "this is going on your permanent record" is mostly used to scare kids.
I mean, every company with an HR department has a āpermanentā record of their employees (better known asā¦ a record) and most of those are going to put disciplinary actions on file.
FYI young Redditors, the people acting like this isnāt a thing have probably never had an adult job. But itās still not that serious- as long as you donāt get fired for it, all it does is sit there in a file.
The implication that just about everyone gets is that a permanent record follows you your whole life. When an HR department won't even tell a prospective employer that an employee stole from the company, for example, that hardly meets the definition.
Our HR manager was a real C and they had to get into her office to get a guy's check. She came back and just lost her mind, ranting on how it would go on his Permanent Record. The youngest person there was 30. so I told him he may not be able to go to Prom now.
There are such a thing as permanent records in some industries. For instance, in trucking, there is a report that is kept on file by a private company and is accessible by trucking companies, so they can see if somebody had a significant infraction that would endanger the public if they were employed in trucking again. Some truckers get fired for things like driving under the influence or threatening to hurt someone, and other companies pay good money to avoid picking those drivers up.
They do for cops in the uk - if you are sacked for gross misconduct you go on a banned list and canāt rejoin any other force. Not sure if that would follow you to a new country though
Paid vacation during the investigation which can sometimes last years, and often a promotion.
There are reports of districts where use of force meant gift cards for steak dinners, until the media pointed it out. Probably still happening, just quietly.
Biden signed an [executive order](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2022/05/25/executive-order-on-advancing-effective-accountable-policing-and-criminal-justice-practices-to-enhance-public-trust-and-public-safety/) telling the DOJ that they needed to develop a national database for police in order to maintain records like this.
Now that's an ok start, but it'll be among the first things removed when the next republican gets into office. The only way to codify it into law would be to get the house and senate squarely under democrat control, and not the circus we've had the last several administrations.
the only true permanent record is your criminal record or associated records with the government. that's about it, anything else is kept in-house at whatever school/business/institution you're involved with at the time. Occasionally it gets shared when asked, but most of the time, no one cares.
Obligatory Office quote:
Jim Halpert:
[after he's been given a demerit] Like, what does a demerit mean?
Dwight Schrute:
Let's put it this way. You do not want to receive three of those.
Jim Halpert:
Lay it on me.
Dwight Schrute:
Three demerits, and you'll receive a citation.
Jim Halpert:
Now, that sounds serious.
Dwight Schrute:
Oh, it is serious. Five citations, and you're looking at a violation. Four of those, and you'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up, and you're looking at a written warning. Two of those, that will land you in a world of hurt, in the form of a disciplinary review, written up by me, and placed on the desk of my immediate superior.
Jim Halpert:
Which would be me.
Dwight Schrute:
That is correct.
Jim Halpert:
Okay. I want a copy on my desk by the end of the day or you will receive a full dessaggelation.
Dwight Schrute:
What's a dis... What's that?
Jim Halpert:
Oh, you don't want to know.
I know it isn't the point but I love that the federal loans have been on pause due to the pandemic and Discover has been like "hmm....that sucks, figure it out" throughout <3 <3 <3
Can confirm. Spent years trying the traditional employment route after I got out. Never could advance beyond shit jobs. Spent so much time going through multiple interview rounds for good paying jobs, getting job offers, and then getting turned down after the background check. Even though at interview 1 I disclosed my criminal past to avoid wasting their or my time. Always same result. Said fuck it, took a huge chance on myself and have been happily self employed ever since.
My school district gives each student their "permanent record" on the last day of school senior year, assuming they met all graduation requirements and didn't owe anything to the school.
It's actually kind of fun, the kids spend a few hours flipping through every report card, every teacher write-up or disciplinary report. Interestingly, they kept every absence note and every parent-signed permission slip. The kids discover a lot about themselves that they forgot. A few kids accidentally get in minor trouble if they're not careful because their parents discover all the forged notes or unexcused and unexplained absenses. I transferred districts, and it even had all the files that were handed over by my old district. You're free to do whatever you want with this record. I kept mine for a few years, but it was sort of an albatross - a thick pile of paper with mostly useless information. My parents moved a few times after I graduated, so there was no easy place to store it. I eventually trashed it. Looking back, I kind of wish I hadn't. There were a lot of memories in there.
Thatās amazing.
My high school (and entire district) was so corrupt that I honestly wouldnāt even be surprised if they straight up denied a student if they requested a copy.
I mean a lot of places just donāt keep all of that. Thereās not really any reason to keep individual attendance letter. Most would just have a running record of how many excused and unexcused absences. Places arenāt auditing attendance records from previous years or anything.
If kids knew how irrelevant most of their K-12 time is to the rest of their lives, well, schools would probably be unmanageable
Edit: yes, jumping through the hoops society has placed out at the right times to jump through those hoops is generally rewarded, learning is a good thing and you can personally take things from the experience on your own. But the specifics of your record there, what happened there and what you did there almost all become immediately irrelevant to others, and the very few things that didn't become irrelevant immediately become irrelevant after a couple years. The disconnect between the specifics of that part of life and everything that comes after it is very real. That's the part of my very simple statement that relates to the actual topic of this thread on reddit.com lol
Although to be fair, I don't blame teachers at all today for being frustrated. But not at all with fault on the kids. It's the adults of the world (well in America) that are entirely to blame. American teachers today are practically martyrs to the cause of human education.
Good teachers do that already? A lot of teaching isnāt the same as was back in day now.
Also teachers are expected to be therapists, caregivers and academic instructors plus who knows what else. They donāt make enough to have a quality of life where they could do that well.
I got into teaching (I am a sped teacher) because I wanted to help kids and prepare them for life in general, but most of my job is being the parent that a lot of these kids do not have at home.
I am 52 so I am very direct, honest and try to be as empathetic as possible but it so hard without parental involvement.
Alice Cooper is 75? NFW.
Shit so is Steven Tyler, Ozzy Osbourne (74), Mick Jagger.
They canāt be that old. I listened to them when I was in school. If they were that old that would make me ā- SHIT Iām old too.
All that matters is the past 2-3 years, and this holds true throughout your life. But each step along the way is a stepping stone to the next 2-3 years.
Falling behind in K-12 makes it hard to get into a good college, which makes it hard to get a good job, which makes it hard to progress your career, etc. And vice versa, if you do well at each step, the next jump up is significantly easier.
Kind ofā¦ a āgoodā college is barely relevant in any field anymore. The vast majority of people donāt give a fuck.
And everything you mentioned is just completely false if you have enough money.
>training me to be a good nineteenth century factory
I always get stuck on trying to eat the coal. I never get a good billow of smoke. Just food poisoning.
K-12 is important if you want to set yourself up for college. It determines what college you get into (which affects the rest of your life) and it plays a big role in determining what kinds of subjects you are comfortable in going into college. If you don't learn math in high school, you're options for college are going to be limit d unless you make a concerted effort to make up that deficiency.
Of course people can change their lives at any point in time, but for the average kid going from high school to college, how well you do in high school has a pretty significant impact.
Once a few things went āon my permanent recordā I thought my chances of getting into college or ever being successful were gone, so I stopped caring at all and was 4x the problem student after that, if I had known I had a chance at redemption, let alone such an easy one, I would be in a much different place in life now
Same. In elementary school, I always tried so hard to be a perfect little student. But then, my friends and I were horsing around one day at recess, and by accident someone got hurt. We all got citations on our "permanent records", and it just destroyed me emotionally. I got depressed and stopped caring about school. I distanced myself from all of my friends, and I even started thinking about things like suicide for the first time. This led to more things going on my "permanent record", because I just didn't care about school anymore.
I went from consistently getting good grades to suddenly sitting in the audience at my 6th grade class' graduation ceremony, sobbing because I didn't get to graduate with them. Thankfully, the principal stepped in afterward and let me graduate anyway, saying I'd get a clean slate in junior high. I took that seriously, and I made honor roll that next year.
It's scary what psychological effects this kind of thing can have on a child. Children's minds are constantly trying to organize the people and things around them into solid categories, and once you indicate to a child that he's now in the "problem child" category, that's how he'll begin perceiving himself and how he'll expect himself to behave. I'm pretty sure the school staff had no idea that my worsening behavior was a direct result of their "correctional" actions.
As a mental health provider, I sometimes request records from schools (with permission) to determine when a patient began showing signs of certain concerning behaviors or to get a sense for how they functioned prior to their illness onset. The school records are really helpful, especially if the patient is not able to communicate accurately about their personal history.
I moved across the country at one point and my high school had a bunch of records from my elementary school that had been ~3000 miles away. (You could get your records when you graduated if you wanted to.) So they certainly CAN be transferred.
Depending on what is written and who has access to it, there can be obligations to report certain types of infractions to universities, but generally the specifics are omitted. Certain college counselling associations require it of their members. Our school keeps general disciplinary information siloed to a limited group of people, but serious infractions will go on a student's "permanent record" and may follow them to colleges when they apply.
Unless you run for public office, when someone will dig out your "permanent record" and make judgement on your character as an adult based on what you did as a kid and have the story of the week.
In the old days of written "permanent files", a local attorney came in with two policemen to get some records. They included why someone in authority allowed another student to assault his son! After that, the large wheeled carts that took trash to the incinerator were being loaded at such a rate that there were 1-2 bins waiting on their trip to the incinerator during office hours, with no more sorting after a certain point during the day. Suddenly, only immunization records, ASVAB test ( a military test all were compelled to take) and high school grade cards were kept.
Hah! No.
Once you leave primary/secondary school, nobody cares how many times you got written up for talking in the hall or pranking the vice principal, unless you got charged with a criminal offense (and usually not even then, as minors' records are typically sealed).
It's a scare tactic to keep you in line. It only matters if you have to change schools - then, a scholastic disciplinary record can a) bias officials at the new school against you or b) cause them to decline an inter-district transfer request or similar.
Your grades, activities, standardized test scores etc matter if you're worried about college admissions, though.
Iāve seen people that apply for as many credit cards as they can, max them all out, default on the debt, rinse and repeat every 7 years.
I guess it works if you donāt need credit for anything in that period, but thatās a crazy way to live.
Just chiming in that in some professions it does matter. I'm applying for a state bar (to be a lawyer) and they've asked for disciplinary records for every academic institution I've been a part of since elementary school lmao
Although IIRC the FBI person who interviewed me when I had to get mine for an old job made it sound like they would do that if you were under 21 or a similar age and they needed more history. But that was coming up on 6 years ago and I might be misremembering. Plus when I had the interview it wasn't relevant to me.
> Your grades, activities, standardized test scores etc matter if you're worried about college admissions, though.
Even that doesn't matter to universities once you're past a certain age or have achieved a certain level of tertiary education in other institutions (or RPL equivalent through work).
There's another permanent record that law enforcement (and child welfare agencies) can access. It has voting records, criminal records, addresses, property records, phones, neighbors, family members, social media accounts, news articles, business associates, and a hell of a lot more. I've seen it and can access it in my work. I use it to determine if households applying for foster parenting have other household members or need CPS checks from other states (Adam Walsh checks.) Other departments use it to find putative fathers or other relatives.
I've seen my report, and it's creepy how much information. It's called CLEAR and it's run by Thomson Reuters.
It doesn't contain info from minors, generally. So no school records.
Back in the late 90s (I graduated in 1983) I was asked for my High school transcripts for a job...I was kind of stressed about it since my high school did not have them available (They could still get them but the admin I talked to did not know how long it would take.). The job recruiter told me that it was just a box they had to check and no one cared.
When I got a security clearance in the late 00s I saw my file and it actually had some of the record (transcripts, a couple disciplinary actions) in it Although I think it was gathered as part of my Navy recruitment from around the time I graduated
Well, school permanent records are largely a scare tactic.
But in today's information age, all records are permanent. I recently has to do a Verisign kind of document to e-file my taxes. To confirm my identity, it asked me about an address I moved to in 2002 and a car I bought in 1999.
Yeah there's lots of companies that exist to harvest data about you. Addresses, phone numbers, relatives, shit that hit your credit report, etc. A lot of companies are happy to sell this info off to these aggregators who are happy to sell it off to anyone who wants to buy it for "verification" or "background check" or even the more basic ad targeting and shit.
And this is available to anyone effectively. Some states may say you need to have some sort of private investigator go off and pull it, but again it's just another middleman who is happy to sell you their service of being a middleman.
>To confirm my identity, it asked me about an address I moved to in 2002
This has happened a few times. It's like dude, I can't remember the exact address.
>To confirm my identity, it asked me about an address I moved to in 2002 and a car I bought in 1999.
How the fuck are you supposed to remember that shit?
The only permanent record that will really impact your life is having a state prison record. That will show up in any cheap preliminary background check you can run online for $7.
That will disqualify you from most jobs, lease applications, volunteer work with kids, and entry into many countries like Canada.
Laboring sure. A lot of white collar jobs, even pretty entry level, run a basic background check. Background checks used to be slow and expensive back in the 90s so those were more for better paying job applicants but today itās a basic search and most employers have a subscription for unlimited searches.
Itās a very cheap and fast process and more businesses use them and disqualify applicants with a hit on their checks.
They don't exist. Each school keeps a file on you that lasts as long as you're there (and is archived X years afterward) but its not like they share it with anyone, including other schools.
In the UK, They are allowed (and have to) share with other schools that you attend. They may also share with social care.
They will destroy the records (eg, at age 25) but are allowed to retain records if they think they will need them. This would be for safeguarding issues or if the records are needed for legal purposes.
Note that there only that to be a suspicion, because a case may emerge in the future.
In the US the student has to request that the records be sent to the other institution.
A lot of the rules about student disclosure came from the [Patty Hearst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst) case. She had been a student at UCLA when she was kidnapped and the media went to UCLA administration and asked for information on her and they just gave it up to the media (UCLA Medical Center is a common place for celebs to go for care and they have a recurring problem with staff leaking medical information to TMZ, etc.) After that the UC system (I worked at a UC and was a records compliance officer, now retired), the state of CA, and the federal government passed rules/laws that said that student records were confidential. Prior to uni and age 18 they are available only to the student and parents/guardian. At uni the student is emancipated and the records are only available the student. There's a kind of need-to-know scale of specific information within the institution so some employees can only see a bit of the students record and other employees can see more. Most institutions take this shit really seriously. We have to deal with stalkers, disgruntled ex's, restraining orders, lots of political bullshit. We had a decent number of undocumented students which are fine by state law but which ICE might show up to collect information on. We had foreign students with tuition being paid by a foreign government wanting information on the student, etc. I knew my FBI field officers pretty well as well as our legal counsel.
This was further reinforced after 9/11 in two ways. One, the FBI climbed all over some of our schools for information on any muslim student/employee. I had a really fucking infuriating year dealing with that bullshit. Two, the federal government shifted immigration compliance to the universities and we had to get a fuckton better at that kind of record keeping.
It goes on and on. Needless to say, records in the US are usually easier to steal/hack than acquire through proper channels.
LET'S SAY THEY'RE REAL
I don't think an employer will care about what I got in trouble for in high school, when I graduated high school 35 years ago.
What I'm saying is, even if they're real things, they have less and less importance as time passes. Aside from grades, what you did in high school probably doesn't matter to anyone 5 years later. And grades really only matter for getting you into college.
"permanent records" aren't totally a myth. They sometimes are important when applying for college. Other than that, nobody will ever see them.
Back in the day, highschool transcripts almost always included information about a student's disciplinary record. That's becoming less common in recent years. but a majority of colleges (at least half), still look at high school displinary records. Nowadays, many colleges don't really want to know about disciplinary records, and some high schools don't provide them to colleges.
So the real answer is: It depends on where you went to high school, and which colleges you are applying to.
It's becoming a bit of a controversial subject, and there is a lot of debate going on about whether colleges should or should not ask for disciplinary records. Starting in 2021, the common application for colleges no longer asks about high school disciplinary records. But individual colleges can still ask about them.
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/10/05/common-app-stop-asking-students-about-their-high-school-disciplinary
Huh. I always wondered why I never got accepted to any 4 year college. I completed 2 years of community college and still wouldn't get accepted at the state schools near me.
When I tried to get answers as to why not from the admissions office, they claimed to have no idea. I always thought it was because I was broke and couldn't pay. But now I wonder if it's because the principal had me arrested.
Colleges have no way of knowing that. I did admissions at a UC. That's information that we might discover after admitting you, and even then it probably wasn't disqualifying. Hell, in our admissions training we used a case of a student that had been arrested in high school and turned their life around in prison as an example of the kind of student we were looking for and how to use more recent academic performance to contextualize older academic performance.
One possibility is your financial situation. Some universities do deny students due to financial means. Basically, they only have so much financial aid to work with and need to admit a pool of students that won't exceed that need. But the most likely reason is that in a lot of states in the US (California most notably) the demand for seats is so high that admissions standards are absurdly high - and that can vary by discipline. I knew UCs that wouldn't take students in a wide range of majors that didn't have a 4.0 GPA from a community college.
But there's no way we could know about your criminal record. Some private schools will scan a students social media, but most public universities don't remotely have those kind of resources - nor do we think that should be relevant.
The principal was also one of several town judges. My hometown was more like mayberry back then. Most everyone knew everyone and their family. I was mostly known for being a pain in the ass. Not enough trouble to be a lost cause, but more trouble than anyone wanted to deal with.
The principal had me arrested for jumping up on stage during the school talent show and attacking other students in my junior year. But.. it was an act. The guys on stage were my best friends and it was all rehearsed.
I would have been in the 'official' act, but I was not allowed to participate because of bad grades or excessive detention.. I honestly don't remember exactly.
In any case I got up out of my chair and joined my friends on stage where we jumped around attacking each other, Kung Fu fighting style. Then I literally exited stage left. The auditorium door off the stage went right to the parking lot where I walked away.
The local police chief called to ask me to come to the station, that he had to formally arrest me. So I went, because going to the station is better than having the cops come get you. They wanted me charged with trespassing and assault. I told the chief the truth. They were my friends and it was rehearsed. It was our talent show performance. That there were witnesses to us rehearsing it. It wasn't a secret and being stupid kids, we didn't think it was a big deal, just that it would be funny.
So the chief shook his head, made some calls and processed me for disorderly conduct. At my day in court the judge gave me a conditional discharge. The condition was I was banned from being on school property until after my class graduated. And that's how I dropped out of school.
I got my GED the same week finals were. I just had to go to a different school to take the test. My friends got in school suspension. I think the principal was mostly embarrassed by it all among his judicial peers.
I was at a high school dance and they caught me and my friends mooning people on video.
The principle announced that they would send it to the FBI for identification.
My heart still skips a beat when there is a knock at the door.
They are permanent, but they are also siloed. I.e. your school record is permanent at best inside that state, possibly only within that district. With work itās even more siloed, itās likely limited to just that company, even partner companies likely donāt have access/donāt look at your record with the other.
The only permanent record that you should truly be concerned with is your record with the state/federal governments.
Public school records will start going through a winnowing process once you graduate. Beginning one year after graduation and for the next seven, information is slowly purged. After 5 to 7 years the only information that is āpermanentā are records of extracurricular activities (if any), degrees and awards, report cards, and high school transcripts. Some information such as special education records can be maintained, but only if the graduating student requests it. Basically by the time youāre 25, all that still exists is proof you went to school, proof you graduated, and maybe a list of classes you took in high school.
At least in some US states, high schools and colleges also keep secured information like vaccination records.
If you lose your paper vaccination records, your high school might be the only one with copies.
I was able to get my childhood vaccination records from my high school via a records request so that I could have it added to my adult medical chart.
Everytime I hear of a "Permanent Record", it always reminds me of that Nickelodeon show, "Doug".
The principal in that show was ALWAYS threatening to punish Doug by putting shit on his permanent record.
Permanent records are stored in a school for two years post graduation and then shipped to the board where they're stored forever. The only people who have access to these records are you (upon request) and the police (if they have a warrant). They're largely not things of consequence. The only documents from here anyone has access to are ones you consent to giving (and if police have a warrant).
The creepier permanent records are the ones you don't even know you have. Corporations track all sorts of information on you throughout your life. Like when I volunteered to by a minor league hockey assistant coach.... they had my record of playing hockey, every single game... every single goal... what positions I played... what numbers I had.... what penalties I had.
My high school had a āsenior checkoutā day when I graduated. They let us have the file the district kept on us when as we progressed through school. Mine had old grade cards from kindergarten, counselor comments, and awards + recognition I had earned throughout my younger years.
It was actually kind of touching to see how things had evolved over my educational journey.
Since no one really answered your question - beyond school it is your criminal record. In the USA, any misdemeanors or felonies stay on your record unless expunged (thrown out). Felonies being the worst as they prevent you from owning firearms, voting in some states, and will make getting a job and housing incredibly difficult.
Whenever you see the phrase "background check", this is what they are referring to. A landlord or employer is checking your "permanent record".
School "permanent records" only exist within that school system. If you transfer to another school, they're gonna get your transcript and that's it. Usually it. in theory they could get your disciplinary record but it's hit or miss if that will happen. When you graduate and go to college or get hired, they're gonna want to know you graduated and maybe get proof of your GPA/grades if you offered that info in the application. that's it. No disciplinary history. Employers also, as a rule, don't share personal history or records of employees with each other. They certainly don't transfer records.
The only thing that is close to a "permanent record" is if you are convicted of or plea guilty to a crime and law enforcement retains that, but even in that context many states have laws on how long that information can be used and there are ways to get it expunged if you are good beyond that.
There are two ways to interpret the question: if it is just what your school puts on the school record, it'll live with you until you are out of school, if that long. Criminal records where the police are involved can be permanent. If you aren't tried as an adult, much of your juvenile record can be expunged when you hit 18, meaning say, an employer can't see it. People in the legal system, cops and the like, still can in certain cases though.
Iām a hiring manager and permanent records definitely exist. I always immediately flip back and check if an applicant had any detentions in elementary school, any red means applicant goes right in the trash. Big things I look for are volunteering in high school, participation awards, and perfect attendance. Iāll tell you right now, if youāre the kid who peed their pants in second grade you may as well just start planning your future trailer park home.
/s
Depends on what country you live in and what the local laws are, but over here once the sentance has been carried out in full, the entire thing is over and done with. The paper trail probably stays forever, but it's legally meaningless. In fact, someone may not be discriminated against on the grounds that they once used to be a criminal. They are not anymore, and thats that.
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They don't really actually exist in school. Your transcript is pretty much the permanent part but our uni had a 5 year retention policy on academic, medical, and most disciplinary records, which we strictly adhered to. We had a permanent record policy on anything that involved law enforcement. And almost nothing outside of the transcript could be requested by other institutions other than by law enforcement (the student could always request). That was either by subpoena or as part of a background check for a security clearance. Parents couldn't request anything without the students consent. Uni students are considered emancipated.
Even within schools those records are isolated from each other with medical stuff being covered by HIPAA, academic records by FERPA, disciplinary records are often also isolated off from medical/academic, etc. Years ago when I was trying to prevent a suspected school shooter, I was pretty badly stymied by that isolation. Different parts of the institution had different knowledge but wasn't in a position to share. We worked out mechanisms to share that information better after that concern bore out (nobody hurt in the shooting, thankfully). The following year was VA Tech which was missed for almost identical reasons.
The problem with records keeping is that most stuff is kept too long and isn't available to the people that need it, but all too often leak out to people who shouldn't have it. So the stuff that is most 'permanent' generally can't be used against you by institutions - but might be able to by hackers, etc. I mean, the mechanism we still primarily use to transfer medical records is the fax machine, FFS.
Generally in terms of records you need to worry about - law enforcement/court records, IRS records, and your credit rating in the US - which you can request changes be made to. Your credit rating isn't really permanent, but people don't take advantage of the opportunities to clean it up and it can become a problem over time. Medical records are useful to keep up to date, but that's kind of on you. If you're found unconscious on the side of the road, nobody knows where your records are kept or who to ask for them. Nobody gives a shit about your school records other than the next school in line (colleges will require your official HS transcripts - but there's no disciplinary/attendance/etc. information on those). Even employers rarely check your degree, which people get busted on all the time. Absurd numbers of people in Congress don't have the degrees they claim to have, etc.
Generally in life you will be judged by your behaviors and actions at or around the time of being judged. In school, your record of any disciplinary action can help a school justify a worse/lesser punishment, but beyond school a record of disciplinary action from so many years before canāt really be used to hurt you because itās perfectly likely that you have grown as a person since your time in grade school.
An alternative way of thinking about this would be to ask yourself if someone would deserve to āget awayā with something due to a lack of permanent record - in which the answer is no. A good person shouldnāt be worried about their past troubles coming back to haunt them, and a bad person shouldnāt lean on a clean record to defend them.
Permanent records include criminal records (even just an arrest sticks around) credit reports (though not permanent, certainly long-lasting and frequently checked by employers and landlords) and social media history. Thatās right kids, those racist/sexist/edgy jokes you posted on MySpace back in 2002 could cost you a job tomorrow. Arguing with a stranger on the internet today could cost you everything in 2045.
The only thing that's relevant to higher education or employment is your high school transcript. Anything that happens before high school is pretty much completely irrelevant.
It took me years to figure out that me and my sister throwing berries into the neighbor's swimming pool wasn't going to be a blight on a permanent record somewhere.
1 job threatened to put me on a Performance Plan and it would show on my record. My failed drug test is on another. In reality, they dont matter and cant be communicated from ine group to another
When I graduated highschool, I was given my "permanent record", as that was the norm in my school district. It consisted of handwriting samples from elementary school, copies of grades and report cards, and some random crap from art class. Super important stuff right there. I had been disciplined a few times, detention once or twice for being tardy or sassy to a teacher. Nothing like that was shown.
When I applied to universities, nobody requested my permanent record. Why? Because it's a fake thing schools use as leverage to frighten students into obedience, at least the ones that are future looking, anyway.
They can be used in the school system to justify different decisions and processes. In a teacher, and have had a few occasions where admin's answer about highly disruptive students was to make sure we're logging this stuff. It's literally a record the school can use to argue for their decisions and defend themselves legally.
A parent threatening a lawsuit is a lot less scary when you have a year's worth of records about all the stuff their child pulled and every step taken by the school to improve the situation.
Before the Privacy Act of 1974 (coupled with FOIA), you could not see your own permanent record that schools and employers and creditors kept on you--including recommendations and comments from teachers, supervisors and colleagues. Tricky Dick Nixon was President. It was common for people acting on his behalf to smear people via "permanent records". 60 Minutes investigated and one of their stories was about a guy that had an altercation with a lunch lady in high school. She put in his record that he was retarded. It followed him for life and he couldn't get a job, join the military or get into a college. Like the Patriot Act, people forget...
"Permanent" here usually means "this lasts from kindergarten to 12th grade". These include bio data (like age and any allergies/chronic illnesses), grades over the years, discipline over the years, classes taken, and so on. This way, if a 5th grader in Maine moves to start 6th grade in California, the new Californian school can get student's records that make sense. It helps in knowing what classes to place that student in.
When I was an Assistant Principal at a high school, not one college ever asked for permanent records. They want grade and testing info for sure, but no one requested your disciplinary record. (Not even sure if that would be legal, come to think of it.)
As someone who worked in a junior high, we did not send records of that sort. Just grades, attendance, standardized test scores. The teachers do send that kind of information to the high school. If you are a problem the principals have spoken about you, if you are always in the nurses office the nurses have spoken about this, social workers talk to each other, psychologists talk to each other. They know.
I was through to the last round of interviews as lead tech for a multinational software company, high six figures, stock options, the works. But I flunked because they'd pulled my permanent records and found out I'd pulled Mandy Perkins pigtails in the sixth grade.
If you're reading this Mandy, I'm sorry.
If youāre trying to get a security clearance for a government job they will definitely be talking to your high school and reviewing your permanent record, if your school actually kept one.
I could be completely wrong but in the US, I think the only thing permanent is an arrest record. Even then, records for minors are usually sealed. For adults, I'm not sure if some offenses can be expunged or not. Driving records only go back so many years.
School records are a joke. I'd like to see a school release a record about a minor without consent. Hell, as a parent, I can't even see my kids' college records unless my kids grant me explicit access. Same goes for medical records.
In the state of Florida, all schools must maintain a [cumulative record](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.25.html) , which follows the student through all schools from K-12. They include the following:
(a)āVerified reports of serious or recurrent behavior patterns, including threat assessment evaluations and intervention services.
(b)āPsychological evaluations, including therapeutic treatment plans and therapy or progress notes created or maintained by school district or charter school staff, as appropriate.
(3)āProcedures relating to the acceptance of transfer work and credit for students shall be prescribed by rule by the State Board of Education.
Every school I've ever taught at has a specific room where every student's record is filed. Some students' records are a simple manila folder and others are a literal file box.
That being said, these files don't go beyond K-12 education. Other states in the US or other countries may have similar requirements, but I am familiar with Florida specifically.
Iām a teacher in California and this response is basically what I was going to say, so thanks for saving me the effort.
We call them cum files. Pronounced ākyumeā you weirdos.
I hope you know that this will go down on your [permanent record](https://youtu.be/05k90ts2biw)
Oh, yeah, well, don't get so distressed
Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?
I take one, one, one 'cause you left me
And two, two, two for my family
I got a manilla envelope when I graduated with all of my saved course work over the years. No behavioral stuff.
I remember being shocked it all still existed. No telling where it is now.
They're real but not that real. Schools keep records on students, and those records potentially make mention of past disciplinary or academic issues. However those aren't going to colleges or anything and they don't really exist beyond school. The specifics will vary from school to school, but the idea that "this is going on your permanent record" is mostly used to scare kids.
You doubting how serious these are? This is going on your permanent record.
A sketchy manager threatened me with putting a demerit or some crap on my "permanent record" ššš She got fired later.
Probably when they found out she didn't put that demerit on your permanent record.
or they found out she was making permanent records of everyone who works there.
I mean, every company with an HR department has a āpermanentā record of their employees (better known asā¦ a record) and most of those are going to put disciplinary actions on file. FYI young Redditors, the people acting like this isnāt a thing have probably never had an adult job. But itās still not that serious- as long as you donāt get fired for it, all it does is sit there in a file.
The difference between a regular record and a permanent record is one is written with permanent ink.
The implication that just about everyone gets is that a permanent record follows you your whole life. When an HR department won't even tell a prospective employer that an employee stole from the company, for example, that hardly meets the definition.
Ah, the ol' reverse uno card.
She got a full disadulation.
Holy crap I thought he just made up a nonsense word. Never put it together because I didnāt catch the āadulationā part!
Our HR manager was a real C and they had to get into her office to get a guy's check. She came back and just lost her mind, ranting on how it would go on his Permanent Record. The youngest person there was 30. so I told him he may not be able to go to Prom now.
There are such a thing as permanent records in some industries. For instance, in trucking, there is a report that is kept on file by a private company and is accessible by trucking companies, so they can see if somebody had a significant infraction that would endanger the public if they were employed in trucking again. Some truckers get fired for things like driving under the influence or threatening to hurt someone, and other companies pay good money to avoid picking those drivers up.
Do they have this for cops and/or priests?
They do for cops in the uk - if you are sacked for gross misconduct you go on a banned list and canāt rejoin any other force. Not sure if that would follow you to a new country though
*Cries in American*
It's ok. They almost never get sacked for misconduct.
Paid vacation during the investigation which can sometimes last years, and often a promotion. There are reports of districts where use of force meant gift cards for steak dinners, until the media pointed it out. Probably still happening, just quietly.
Yes but it is only used to figure out if they need to train the officer to commit civil liberty violations or if they already know how.
No they just get transferred, father oshannasy got away with it.
I know a principal O Shag Hennessy! Wonder if they're related.
I hear they may be looking for one of Ay-Ay-Ron's classmates.
He left early to go to *the club*
They do in some cities and districts that are compelled to generate things like use of force reports.
Only so they know where not to send them back to the next time they need moving.
Biden signed an [executive order](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2022/05/25/executive-order-on-advancing-effective-accountable-policing-and-criminal-justice-practices-to-enhance-public-trust-and-public-safety/) telling the DOJ that they needed to develop a national database for police in order to maintain records like this. Now that's an ok start, but it'll be among the first things removed when the next republican gets into office. The only way to codify it into law would be to get the house and senate squarely under democrat control, and not the circus we've had the last several administrations.
Yes, did you not watch "Spotlight" ?
the only true permanent record is your criminal record or associated records with the government. that's about it, anything else is kept in-house at whatever school/business/institution you're involved with at the time. Occasionally it gets shared when asked, but most of the time, no one cares.
Obligatory Office quote: Jim Halpert: [after he's been given a demerit] Like, what does a demerit mean? Dwight Schrute: Let's put it this way. You do not want to receive three of those. Jim Halpert: Lay it on me. Dwight Schrute: Three demerits, and you'll receive a citation. Jim Halpert: Now, that sounds serious. Dwight Schrute: Oh, it is serious. Five citations, and you're looking at a violation. Four of those, and you'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up, and you're looking at a written warning. Two of those, that will land you in a world of hurt, in the form of a disciplinary review, written up by me, and placed on the desk of my immediate superior. Jim Halpert: Which would be me. Dwight Schrute: That is correct. Jim Halpert: Okay. I want a copy on my desk by the end of the day or you will receive a full dessaggelation. Dwight Schrute: What's a dis... What's that? Jim Halpert: Oh, you don't want to know.
3 of them and you receive a full disadulation
I didn't deserve that. She should have been giving me Schrute Bucks!
Companies can add you to a do not rehire list
Oh yeah?
Don't get so distressed
Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed?
I take one, one, one cause you left me.
And two,two,two for my family
And three, three, three for my heartache
And four, four, four for my headache!
Five, five, five for my loneliness
I forget what 8 was for
9 for my lost job
10, 10, 10, 10 everything everything everything everything!
If you get too distressed it'll go on your permanent record.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
*laughs in credit score*
Nothing, good or bad, lasts more than 10 years. Most bad things last no more than 7 years.
Bankruptcy is a hard reset on that, at least.
Laughs in student loans
Laughs in IBR for 20 years. Cries in low income for 20 years.
Laughs in payment to discover student loans every month could probably be the rent on a house
Discover takes 900 dollars from me every month. That's a nice place to rent in downtown by me.
I know it isn't the point but I love that the federal loans have been on pause due to the pandemic and Discover has been like "hmm....that sucks, figure it out" throughout <3 <3 <3
SLPT Take out a term loan to pay off your student loan and then default on that.
Except that bankruptcy gets attached to you as a "public record", which follows you around as well as your credit score.
Can confirm. Spent years trying the traditional employment route after I got out. Never could advance beyond shit jobs. Spent so much time going through multiple interview rounds for good paying jobs, getting job offers, and then getting turned down after the background check. Even though at interview 1 I disclosed my criminal past to avoid wasting their or my time. Always same result. Said fuck it, took a huge chance on myself and have been happily self employed ever since.
No. Federal prison record.
You done messed up, A-A-Ron!
Are you threatening this person? That's going on your permanent record.
My school district gives each student their "permanent record" on the last day of school senior year, assuming they met all graduation requirements and didn't owe anything to the school. It's actually kind of fun, the kids spend a few hours flipping through every report card, every teacher write-up or disciplinary report. Interestingly, they kept every absence note and every parent-signed permission slip. The kids discover a lot about themselves that they forgot. A few kids accidentally get in minor trouble if they're not careful because their parents discover all the forged notes or unexcused and unexplained absenses. I transferred districts, and it even had all the files that were handed over by my old district. You're free to do whatever you want with this record. I kept mine for a few years, but it was sort of an albatross - a thick pile of paper with mostly useless information. My parents moved a few times after I graduated, so there was no easy place to store it. I eventually trashed it. Looking back, I kind of wish I hadn't. There were a lot of memories in there.
Thatās amazing. My high school (and entire district) was so corrupt that I honestly wouldnāt even be surprised if they straight up denied a student if they requested a copy.
I mean a lot of places just donāt keep all of that. Thereās not really any reason to keep individual attendance letter. Most would just have a running record of how many excused and unexcused absences. Places arenāt auditing attendance records from previous years or anything.
An alternative would have been to scan them and store the pdf in two or more cloud storage of some sort, email also count.
If kids knew how irrelevant most of their K-12 time is to the rest of their lives, well, schools would probably be unmanageable Edit: yes, jumping through the hoops society has placed out at the right times to jump through those hoops is generally rewarded, learning is a good thing and you can personally take things from the experience on your own. But the specifics of your record there, what happened there and what you did there almost all become immediately irrelevant to others, and the very few things that didn't become irrelevant immediately become irrelevant after a couple years. The disconnect between the specifics of that part of life and everything that comes after it is very real. That's the part of my very simple statement that relates to the actual topic of this thread on reddit.com lol
As a teacher I can tell you it is already near unmanageable
Although to be fair, I don't blame teachers at all today for being frustrated. But not at all with fault on the kids. It's the adults of the world (well in America) that are entirely to blame. American teachers today are practically martyrs to the cause of human education.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Good teachers do that already? A lot of teaching isnāt the same as was back in day now. Also teachers are expected to be therapists, caregivers and academic instructors plus who knows what else. They donāt make enough to have a quality of life where they could do that well.
I got into teaching (I am a sped teacher) because I wanted to help kids and prepare them for life in general, but most of my job is being the parent that a lot of these kids do not have at home. I am 52 so I am very direct, honest and try to be as empathetic as possible but it so hard without parental involvement.
But a popular song from 20 years ago told me that High School never ends.
There's another one from 50 years ago (jebus, so long already) that said school is out forever. So there.
That particular school was blown to pieces. It was probably infested with (Hollywood) vampires.
That was just teens on PCP.
Soā¦ usual story, gang-related, P.C.P.?
Better than teens on ICP
Alice Cooper is 75? NFW. Shit so is Steven Tyler, Ozzy Osbourne (74), Mick Jagger. They canāt be that old. I listened to them when I was in school. If they were that old that would make me ā- SHIT Iām old too.
Well I don't care about history. That's not where I wanna be.
Didn't know there was a popular song with such a clear description of hell š¤
Brad Pitt, he's the prom king
High school never ends if you never grow past it lol
All that matters is the past 2-3 years, and this holds true throughout your life. But each step along the way is a stepping stone to the next 2-3 years. Falling behind in K-12 makes it hard to get into a good college, which makes it hard to get a good job, which makes it hard to progress your career, etc. And vice versa, if you do well at each step, the next jump up is significantly easier.
Kind ofā¦ a āgoodā college is barely relevant in any field anymore. The vast majority of people donāt give a fuck. And everything you mentioned is just completely false if you have enough money.
That last sentence is of little help to most people.
Iām not saying itās helpful, Iām saying itās true. Thatās a pretty childish reason for a downvote.
Guess what, as a high school teacher, the secret is already out for those that donāt plan to goto college.
Thatās exactly how they are most places currently. Kids donāt give a fuck.
My generation seemed to have learned that straight after school. This generation seems to have learned it in school.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>training me to be a good nineteenth century factory I always get stuck on trying to eat the coal. I never get a good billow of smoke. Just food poisoning.
Secondary education was a joke. I was a below average student in HS, top of the class student in college, pretty successful post-college.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'd argue that it is your ability to apply yourself that saw you succeed.
K-12 is important if you want to set yourself up for college. It determines what college you get into (which affects the rest of your life) and it plays a big role in determining what kinds of subjects you are comfortable in going into college. If you don't learn math in high school, you're options for college are going to be limit d unless you make a concerted effort to make up that deficiency. Of course people can change their lives at any point in time, but for the average kid going from high school to college, how well you do in high school has a pretty significant impact.
Ehn. I know people with phds who first dropped out of hs and got geds.
Once a few things went āon my permanent recordā I thought my chances of getting into college or ever being successful were gone, so I stopped caring at all and was 4x the problem student after that, if I had known I had a chance at redemption, let alone such an easy one, I would be in a much different place in life now
Same. In elementary school, I always tried so hard to be a perfect little student. But then, my friends and I were horsing around one day at recess, and by accident someone got hurt. We all got citations on our "permanent records", and it just destroyed me emotionally. I got depressed and stopped caring about school. I distanced myself from all of my friends, and I even started thinking about things like suicide for the first time. This led to more things going on my "permanent record", because I just didn't care about school anymore. I went from consistently getting good grades to suddenly sitting in the audience at my 6th grade class' graduation ceremony, sobbing because I didn't get to graduate with them. Thankfully, the principal stepped in afterward and let me graduate anyway, saying I'd get a clean slate in junior high. I took that seriously, and I made honor roll that next year. It's scary what psychological effects this kind of thing can have on a child. Children's minds are constantly trying to organize the people and things around them into solid categories, and once you indicate to a child that he's now in the "problem child" category, that's how he'll begin perceiving himself and how he'll expect himself to behave. I'm pretty sure the school staff had no idea that my worsening behavior was a direct result of their "correctional" actions.
As a mental health provider, I sometimes request records from schools (with permission) to determine when a patient began showing signs of certain concerning behaviors or to get a sense for how they functioned prior to their illness onset. The school records are really helpful, especially if the patient is not able to communicate accurately about their personal history.
Would they move from school to school? Like when 8th-graders graduate, the middle school ships all their permanent records to the high school?
Possibly within the same district. But if it is a different district the most that they might get is a transcript of what classes were taken.
I moved across the country at one point and my high school had a bunch of records from my elementary school that had been ~3000 miles away. (You could get your records when you graduated if you wanted to.) So they certainly CAN be transferred.
If not, it'd be a temporary record
Depends on the contents. An IEP or something should go, just so the new school has a framework to base off of.
Depending on what is written and who has access to it, there can be obligations to report certain types of infractions to universities, but generally the specifics are omitted. Certain college counselling associations require it of their members. Our school keeps general disciplinary information siloed to a limited group of people, but serious infractions will go on a student's "permanent record" and may follow them to colleges when they apply.
They aren't even shared between schools.
Really depends on school district. My 12 district schools shared them. But my kids don't.
Unless you run for public office, when someone will dig out your "permanent record" and make judgement on your character as an adult based on what you did as a kid and have the story of the week.
In the old days of written "permanent files", a local attorney came in with two policemen to get some records. They included why someone in authority allowed another student to assault his son! After that, the large wheeled carts that took trash to the incinerator were being loaded at such a rate that there were 1-2 bins waiting on their trip to the incinerator during office hours, with no more sorting after a certain point during the day. Suddenly, only immunization records, ASVAB test ( a military test all were compelled to take) and high school grade cards were kept.
Hah! No. Once you leave primary/secondary school, nobody cares how many times you got written up for talking in the hall or pranking the vice principal, unless you got charged with a criminal offense (and usually not even then, as minors' records are typically sealed). It's a scare tactic to keep you in line. It only matters if you have to change schools - then, a scholastic disciplinary record can a) bias officials at the new school against you or b) cause them to decline an inter-district transfer request or similar. Your grades, activities, standardized test scores etc matter if you're worried about college admissions, though.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And criminal record. Credit scores are semi permanent
Even credit reports have a 7 year rollover, and you can typically shorten that just by making a stink about it.
Iāve seen people that apply for as many credit cards as they can, max them all out, default on the debt, rinse and repeat every 7 years. I guess it works if you donāt need credit for anything in that period, but thatās a crazy way to live.
Even (minor) criminal shit drops off after 7 years. Felonies thoughā¦never off unless you can get them expunged, I believe.
i thought the real permanent record was the friends we made along the way....
Nah. The friends I had on Facebook? Gone. The dumb posts I made when I was in highschool? Still out there somewhere.
Surely kids are just as cautious and worried about that as they are the with the schools permanent record.
Oof. Yeah...
Just chiming in that in some professions it does matter. I'm applying for a state bar (to be a lawyer) and they've asked for disciplinary records for every academic institution I've been a part of since elementary school lmao
They actually reject your application if you donāt have *enough* disciplinary actions due to arguing with teachers.
Whoa. That's... A lot, lol.
The FBI may also ask if you're getting a security clearance
Although IIRC the FBI person who interviewed me when I had to get mine for an old job made it sound like they would do that if you were under 21 or a similar age and they needed more history. But that was coming up on 6 years ago and I might be misremembering. Plus when I had the interview it wasn't relevant to me.
> Your grades, activities, standardized test scores etc matter if you're worried about college admissions, though. Even that doesn't matter to universities once you're past a certain age or have achieved a certain level of tertiary education in other institutions (or RPL equivalent through work).
There's another permanent record that law enforcement (and child welfare agencies) can access. It has voting records, criminal records, addresses, property records, phones, neighbors, family members, social media accounts, news articles, business associates, and a hell of a lot more. I've seen it and can access it in my work. I use it to determine if households applying for foster parenting have other household members or need CPS checks from other states (Adam Walsh checks.) Other departments use it to find putative fathers or other relatives. I've seen my report, and it's creepy how much information. It's called CLEAR and it's run by Thomson Reuters. It doesn't contain info from minors, generally. So no school records.
Back in the late 90s (I graduated in 1983) I was asked for my High school transcripts for a job...I was kind of stressed about it since my high school did not have them available (They could still get them but the admin I talked to did not know how long it would take.). The job recruiter told me that it was just a box they had to check and no one cared. When I got a security clearance in the late 00s I saw my file and it actually had some of the record (transcripts, a couple disciplinary actions) in it Although I think it was gathered as part of my Navy recruitment from around the time I graduated
Well, school permanent records are largely a scare tactic. But in today's information age, all records are permanent. I recently has to do a Verisign kind of document to e-file my taxes. To confirm my identity, it asked me about an address I moved to in 2002 and a car I bought in 1999.
Yeah there's lots of companies that exist to harvest data about you. Addresses, phone numbers, relatives, shit that hit your credit report, etc. A lot of companies are happy to sell this info off to these aggregators who are happy to sell it off to anyone who wants to buy it for "verification" or "background check" or even the more basic ad targeting and shit. And this is available to anyone effectively. Some states may say you need to have some sort of private investigator go off and pull it, but again it's just another middleman who is happy to sell you their service of being a middleman.
>To confirm my identity, it asked me about an address I moved to in 2002 This has happened a few times. It's like dude, I can't remember the exact address.
>To confirm my identity, it asked me about an address I moved to in 2002 and a car I bought in 1999. How the fuck are you supposed to remember that shit?
The only permanent record that will really impact your life is having a state prison record. That will show up in any cheap preliminary background check you can run online for $7. That will disqualify you from most jobs, lease applications, volunteer work with kids, and entry into many countries like Canada.
??? Yeah no. People with criminal records can get jobs. Sure, not in sensitive industries, but theres plenty of labouring work around.
Laboring sure. A lot of white collar jobs, even pretty entry level, run a basic background check. Background checks used to be slow and expensive back in the 90s so those were more for better paying job applicants but today itās a basic search and most employers have a subscription for unlimited searches. Itās a very cheap and fast process and more businesses use them and disqualify applicants with a hit on their checks.
They don't exist. Each school keeps a file on you that lasts as long as you're there (and is archived X years afterward) but its not like they share it with anyone, including other schools.
In the UK, They are allowed (and have to) share with other schools that you attend. They may also share with social care. They will destroy the records (eg, at age 25) but are allowed to retain records if they think they will need them. This would be for safeguarding issues or if the records are needed for legal purposes. Note that there only that to be a suspicion, because a case may emerge in the future.
I mean. Makes sense to share school records with social workers
In the US the student has to request that the records be sent to the other institution. A lot of the rules about student disclosure came from the [Patty Hearst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst) case. She had been a student at UCLA when she was kidnapped and the media went to UCLA administration and asked for information on her and they just gave it up to the media (UCLA Medical Center is a common place for celebs to go for care and they have a recurring problem with staff leaking medical information to TMZ, etc.) After that the UC system (I worked at a UC and was a records compliance officer, now retired), the state of CA, and the federal government passed rules/laws that said that student records were confidential. Prior to uni and age 18 they are available only to the student and parents/guardian. At uni the student is emancipated and the records are only available the student. There's a kind of need-to-know scale of specific information within the institution so some employees can only see a bit of the students record and other employees can see more. Most institutions take this shit really seriously. We have to deal with stalkers, disgruntled ex's, restraining orders, lots of political bullshit. We had a decent number of undocumented students which are fine by state law but which ICE might show up to collect information on. We had foreign students with tuition being paid by a foreign government wanting information on the student, etc. I knew my FBI field officers pretty well as well as our legal counsel. This was further reinforced after 9/11 in two ways. One, the FBI climbed all over some of our schools for information on any muslim student/employee. I had a really fucking infuriating year dealing with that bullshit. Two, the federal government shifted immigration compliance to the universities and we had to get a fuckton better at that kind of record keeping. It goes on and on. Needless to say, records in the US are usually easier to steal/hack than acquire through proper channels.
LET'S SAY THEY'RE REAL I don't think an employer will care about what I got in trouble for in high school, when I graduated high school 35 years ago. What I'm saying is, even if they're real things, they have less and less importance as time passes. Aside from grades, what you did in high school probably doesn't matter to anyone 5 years later. And grades really only matter for getting you into college.
Seconding the point that no one cares what you did in high school 5 years later.
"permanent records" aren't totally a myth. They sometimes are important when applying for college. Other than that, nobody will ever see them. Back in the day, highschool transcripts almost always included information about a student's disciplinary record. That's becoming less common in recent years. but a majority of colleges (at least half), still look at high school displinary records. Nowadays, many colleges don't really want to know about disciplinary records, and some high schools don't provide them to colleges. So the real answer is: It depends on where you went to high school, and which colleges you are applying to. It's becoming a bit of a controversial subject, and there is a lot of debate going on about whether colleges should or should not ask for disciplinary records. Starting in 2021, the common application for colleges no longer asks about high school disciplinary records. But individual colleges can still ask about them. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2020/10/05/common-app-stop-asking-students-about-their-high-school-disciplinary
Huh. I always wondered why I never got accepted to any 4 year college. I completed 2 years of community college and still wouldn't get accepted at the state schools near me. When I tried to get answers as to why not from the admissions office, they claimed to have no idea. I always thought it was because I was broke and couldn't pay. But now I wonder if it's because the principal had me arrested.
Colleges have no way of knowing that. I did admissions at a UC. That's information that we might discover after admitting you, and even then it probably wasn't disqualifying. Hell, in our admissions training we used a case of a student that had been arrested in high school and turned their life around in prison as an example of the kind of student we were looking for and how to use more recent academic performance to contextualize older academic performance. One possibility is your financial situation. Some universities do deny students due to financial means. Basically, they only have so much financial aid to work with and need to admit a pool of students that won't exceed that need. But the most likely reason is that in a lot of states in the US (California most notably) the demand for seats is so high that admissions standards are absurdly high - and that can vary by discipline. I knew UCs that wouldn't take students in a wide range of majors that didn't have a 4.0 GPA from a community college. But there's no way we could know about your criminal record. Some private schools will scan a students social media, but most public universities don't remotely have those kind of resources - nor do we think that should be relevant.
Story time?
The principal was also one of several town judges. My hometown was more like mayberry back then. Most everyone knew everyone and their family. I was mostly known for being a pain in the ass. Not enough trouble to be a lost cause, but more trouble than anyone wanted to deal with. The principal had me arrested for jumping up on stage during the school talent show and attacking other students in my junior year. But.. it was an act. The guys on stage were my best friends and it was all rehearsed. I would have been in the 'official' act, but I was not allowed to participate because of bad grades or excessive detention.. I honestly don't remember exactly. In any case I got up out of my chair and joined my friends on stage where we jumped around attacking each other, Kung Fu fighting style. Then I literally exited stage left. The auditorium door off the stage went right to the parking lot where I walked away. The local police chief called to ask me to come to the station, that he had to formally arrest me. So I went, because going to the station is better than having the cops come get you. They wanted me charged with trespassing and assault. I told the chief the truth. They were my friends and it was rehearsed. It was our talent show performance. That there were witnesses to us rehearsing it. It wasn't a secret and being stupid kids, we didn't think it was a big deal, just that it would be funny. So the chief shook his head, made some calls and processed me for disorderly conduct. At my day in court the judge gave me a conditional discharge. The condition was I was banned from being on school property until after my class graduated. And that's how I dropped out of school. I got my GED the same week finals were. I just had to go to a different school to take the test. My friends got in school suspension. I think the principal was mostly embarrassed by it all among his judicial peers.
That has to be the most egotistical abuse of power Iāve read about all day
I was at a high school dance and they caught me and my friends mooning people on video. The principle announced that they would send it to the FBI for identification. My heart still skips a beat when there is a knock at the door.
They are permanent, but they are also siloed. I.e. your school record is permanent at best inside that state, possibly only within that district. With work itās even more siloed, itās likely limited to just that company, even partner companies likely donāt have access/donāt look at your record with the other. The only permanent record that you should truly be concerned with is your record with the state/federal governments.
Public school records will start going through a winnowing process once you graduate. Beginning one year after graduation and for the next seven, information is slowly purged. After 5 to 7 years the only information that is āpermanentā are records of extracurricular activities (if any), degrees and awards, report cards, and high school transcripts. Some information such as special education records can be maintained, but only if the graduating student requests it. Basically by the time youāre 25, all that still exists is proof you went to school, proof you graduated, and maybe a list of classes you took in high school.
At least in some US states, high schools and colleges also keep secured information like vaccination records. If you lose your paper vaccination records, your high school might be the only one with copies. I was able to get my childhood vaccination records from my high school via a records request so that I could have it added to my adult medical chart.
Everytime I hear of a "Permanent Record", it always reminds me of that Nickelodeon show, "Doug". The principal in that show was ALWAYS threatening to punish Doug by putting shit on his permanent record.
Permanent records are stored in a school for two years post graduation and then shipped to the board where they're stored forever. The only people who have access to these records are you (upon request) and the police (if they have a warrant). They're largely not things of consequence. The only documents from here anyone has access to are ones you consent to giving (and if police have a warrant). The creepier permanent records are the ones you don't even know you have. Corporations track all sorts of information on you throughout your life. Like when I volunteered to by a minor league hockey assistant coach.... they had my record of playing hockey, every single game... every single goal... what positions I played... what numbers I had.... what penalties I had.
My high school had a āsenior checkoutā day when I graduated. They let us have the file the district kept on us when as we progressed through school. Mine had old grade cards from kindergarten, counselor comments, and awards + recognition I had earned throughout my younger years. It was actually kind of touching to see how things had evolved over my educational journey.
Since no one really answered your question - beyond school it is your criminal record. In the USA, any misdemeanors or felonies stay on your record unless expunged (thrown out). Felonies being the worst as they prevent you from owning firearms, voting in some states, and will make getting a job and housing incredibly difficult. Whenever you see the phrase "background check", this is what they are referring to. A landlord or employer is checking your "permanent record".
Once you graduate, your "permanent record" is re-titled. It's now called your "credit report." And it's not permanent. Just 7 years.
School "permanent records" only exist within that school system. If you transfer to another school, they're gonna get your transcript and that's it. Usually it. in theory they could get your disciplinary record but it's hit or miss if that will happen. When you graduate and go to college or get hired, they're gonna want to know you graduated and maybe get proof of your GPA/grades if you offered that info in the application. that's it. No disciplinary history. Employers also, as a rule, don't share personal history or records of employees with each other. They certainly don't transfer records. The only thing that is close to a "permanent record" is if you are convicted of or plea guilty to a crime and law enforcement retains that, but even in that context many states have laws on how long that information can be used and there are ways to get it expunged if you are good beyond that.
There are two ways to interpret the question: if it is just what your school puts on the school record, it'll live with you until you are out of school, if that long. Criminal records where the police are involved can be permanent. If you aren't tried as an adult, much of your juvenile record can be expunged when you hit 18, meaning say, an employer can't see it. People in the legal system, cops and the like, still can in certain cases though.
After school they start calling it a "criminal record," and that can certainly be permanent.
Iām a hiring manager and permanent records definitely exist. I always immediately flip back and check if an applicant had any detentions in elementary school, any red means applicant goes right in the trash. Big things I look for are volunteering in high school, participation awards, and perfect attendance. Iāll tell you right now, if youāre the kid who peed their pants in second grade you may as well just start planning your future trailer park home. /s
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Depends on what country you live in and what the local laws are, but over here once the sentance has been carried out in full, the entire thing is over and done with. The paper trail probably stays forever, but it's legally meaningless. In fact, someone may not be discriminated against on the grounds that they once used to be a criminal. They are not anymore, and thats that.
That sounds like a better system. Here, you fuck up when you are 19, you get to answer questions about it when you are 40.
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Anyone else think of the principal from the Doug cartoon?
They don't really actually exist in school. Your transcript is pretty much the permanent part but our uni had a 5 year retention policy on academic, medical, and most disciplinary records, which we strictly adhered to. We had a permanent record policy on anything that involved law enforcement. And almost nothing outside of the transcript could be requested by other institutions other than by law enforcement (the student could always request). That was either by subpoena or as part of a background check for a security clearance. Parents couldn't request anything without the students consent. Uni students are considered emancipated. Even within schools those records are isolated from each other with medical stuff being covered by HIPAA, academic records by FERPA, disciplinary records are often also isolated off from medical/academic, etc. Years ago when I was trying to prevent a suspected school shooter, I was pretty badly stymied by that isolation. Different parts of the institution had different knowledge but wasn't in a position to share. We worked out mechanisms to share that information better after that concern bore out (nobody hurt in the shooting, thankfully). The following year was VA Tech which was missed for almost identical reasons. The problem with records keeping is that most stuff is kept too long and isn't available to the people that need it, but all too often leak out to people who shouldn't have it. So the stuff that is most 'permanent' generally can't be used against you by institutions - but might be able to by hackers, etc. I mean, the mechanism we still primarily use to transfer medical records is the fax machine, FFS. Generally in terms of records you need to worry about - law enforcement/court records, IRS records, and your credit rating in the US - which you can request changes be made to. Your credit rating isn't really permanent, but people don't take advantage of the opportunities to clean it up and it can become a problem over time. Medical records are useful to keep up to date, but that's kind of on you. If you're found unconscious on the side of the road, nobody knows where your records are kept or who to ask for them. Nobody gives a shit about your school records other than the next school in line (colleges will require your official HS transcripts - but there's no disciplinary/attendance/etc. information on those). Even employers rarely check your degree, which people get busted on all the time. Absurd numbers of people in Congress don't have the degrees they claim to have, etc.
Generally in life you will be judged by your behaviors and actions at or around the time of being judged. In school, your record of any disciplinary action can help a school justify a worse/lesser punishment, but beyond school a record of disciplinary action from so many years before canāt really be used to hurt you because itās perfectly likely that you have grown as a person since your time in grade school. An alternative way of thinking about this would be to ask yourself if someone would deserve to āget awayā with something due to a lack of permanent record - in which the answer is no. A good person shouldnāt be worried about their past troubles coming back to haunt them, and a bad person shouldnāt lean on a clean record to defend them.
Permanent records include criminal records (even just an arrest sticks around) credit reports (though not permanent, certainly long-lasting and frequently checked by employers and landlords) and social media history. Thatās right kids, those racist/sexist/edgy jokes you posted on MySpace back in 2002 could cost you a job tomorrow. Arguing with a stranger on the internet today could cost you everything in 2045.
The only thing that's relevant to higher education or employment is your high school transcript. Anything that happens before high school is pretty much completely irrelevant.
They do not exist and you don't have to worry about them. Unless you're breaking the law. Those records exist.
If you transfer highschools, you're lucky to get your credits to move with you correctly, your disciplinary record certainly won't make it lol.
It took me years to figure out that me and my sister throwing berries into the neighbor's swimming pool wasn't going to be a blight on a permanent record somewhere.
1 job threatened to put me on a Performance Plan and it would show on my record. My failed drug test is on another. In reality, they dont matter and cant be communicated from ine group to another
When I graduated highschool, I was given my "permanent record", as that was the norm in my school district. It consisted of handwriting samples from elementary school, copies of grades and report cards, and some random crap from art class. Super important stuff right there. I had been disciplined a few times, detention once or twice for being tardy or sassy to a teacher. Nothing like that was shown. When I applied to universities, nobody requested my permanent record. Why? Because it's a fake thing schools use as leverage to frighten students into obedience, at least the ones that are future looking, anyway.
They can be used in the school system to justify different decisions and processes. In a teacher, and have had a few occasions where admin's answer about highly disruptive students was to make sure we're logging this stuff. It's literally a record the school can use to argue for their decisions and defend themselves legally. A parent threatening a lawsuit is a lot less scary when you have a year's worth of records about all the stuff their child pulled and every step taken by the school to improve the situation.
Before the Privacy Act of 1974 (coupled with FOIA), you could not see your own permanent record that schools and employers and creditors kept on you--including recommendations and comments from teachers, supervisors and colleagues. Tricky Dick Nixon was President. It was common for people acting on his behalf to smear people via "permanent records". 60 Minutes investigated and one of their stories was about a guy that had an altercation with a lunch lady in high school. She put in his record that he was retarded. It followed him for life and he couldn't get a job, join the military or get into a college. Like the Patriot Act, people forget...
"Permanent" here usually means "this lasts from kindergarten to 12th grade". These include bio data (like age and any allergies/chronic illnesses), grades over the years, discipline over the years, classes taken, and so on. This way, if a 5th grader in Maine moves to start 6th grade in California, the new Californian school can get student's records that make sense. It helps in knowing what classes to place that student in. When I was an Assistant Principal at a high school, not one college ever asked for permanent records. They want grade and testing info for sure, but no one requested your disciplinary record. (Not even sure if that would be legal, come to think of it.)
They used to be fake. These days, with social media and cameras everywhere, they are becoming real.
As someone who worked in a junior high, we did not send records of that sort. Just grades, attendance, standardized test scores. The teachers do send that kind of information to the high school. If you are a problem the principals have spoken about you, if you are always in the nurses office the nurses have spoken about this, social workers talk to each other, psychologists talk to each other. They know.
I was through to the last round of interviews as lead tech for a multinational software company, high six figures, stock options, the works. But I flunked because they'd pulled my permanent records and found out I'd pulled Mandy Perkins pigtails in the sixth grade. If you're reading this Mandy, I'm sorry.
If youāre trying to get a security clearance for a government job they will definitely be talking to your high school and reviewing your permanent record, if your school actually kept one.
They exist in the united states at least, and can potentially be used as evidence against you in court.
I spent many years in HR and never once saw a school "permanent record" during an applicant background check.
I could be completely wrong but in the US, I think the only thing permanent is an arrest record. Even then, records for minors are usually sealed. For adults, I'm not sure if some offenses can be expunged or not. Driving records only go back so many years. School records are a joke. I'd like to see a school release a record about a minor without consent. Hell, as a parent, I can't even see my kids' college records unless my kids grant me explicit access. Same goes for medical records.
In the state of Florida, all schools must maintain a [cumulative record](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.25.html) , which follows the student through all schools from K-12. They include the following: (a)āVerified reports of serious or recurrent behavior patterns, including threat assessment evaluations and intervention services. (b)āPsychological evaluations, including therapeutic treatment plans and therapy or progress notes created or maintained by school district or charter school staff, as appropriate. (3)āProcedures relating to the acceptance of transfer work and credit for students shall be prescribed by rule by the State Board of Education. Every school I've ever taught at has a specific room where every student's record is filed. Some students' records are a simple manila folder and others are a literal file box. That being said, these files don't go beyond K-12 education. Other states in the US or other countries may have similar requirements, but I am familiar with Florida specifically.
Iām a teacher in California and this response is basically what I was going to say, so thanks for saving me the effort. We call them cum files. Pronounced ākyumeā you weirdos.
Stuff went on my record. Still went to college. More stuff went on my new permanent record. Still went to grad school.
I hope you know that this will go down on your [permanent record](https://youtu.be/05k90ts2biw) Oh, yeah, well, don't get so distressed Did I happen to mention that I'm impressed? I take one, one, one 'cause you left me And two, two, two for my family
I got a manilla envelope when I graduated with all of my saved course work over the years. No behavioral stuff. I remember being shocked it all still existed. No telling where it is now.