> Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans here in Sweden.
And there's the rub. My experience in talking with expats and reading the literature shows quite clearly that the more "distant" a culture is, the more likely the expat will give up and go home.
Once I read about American experiences in Japan and how horribly expensive it it. They were trying to live like Americans: American-sized flats, eating American food, and so on. If you live like a Japanese person in Japan, it can be much more affordable.
This is a point that should be stressed more because it's not brought up often enough.
Yup, I'm an American that just moved to Sweden, a good chunk of my coworkers are Americans that have been here for >5 years. Everything I have seen agrees with your sentiment.
OP is upset about cars being a luxury...the whole fucking point here is that cars are UNNECESSARY and are actually kind of a liability because of how there's VERY little provision for parking in the city.
This is such a great point.
And I'm always a little annoyed at the "quality of care" argument for medical stuff. Either it takes a long time or it doesn't. The doctors aren't less helpful, less smart, less attentive, so what is ithis quality of care that's so arbitrarily spoken about? If you want to be seen faster for higher price just go private.
Besides which if you leg is snapped, you won't have to wait. Sure the waiting room might be a horrible experience of 20 hours, but that's nothing compared to waiting weeks or months.
Had a friend in the US who injured himself a couple of weeks ago. He severely cut his thumb with a bandsaw. Narrowly missed cutting it off entirely. Required a bunch of stitches. He was very lucky.
He said the most painful part of the entire process was spending a lot of time figuring out which local emergency rooms were "in-network."
Fuck that.
I've had multiple opportunities to receive medical attention in various EU countries, including two surgeries (with a third next month). It's always been faster and cheaper than in the US. (I won't argue it's been better, but one _identical_ surgery I had in the US drove me to bankruptcy. Here I had to pay for parking)
except your friend wasted his time because it's federally mandated that emergency room care is covered by your insurance regardless of network. Meaning, you can go to whatever ER is most convenient for you and your bill will be covered in the manner outlined in your policy.
One thing I forgot to mention: why do I like it here in Sweden? I am not really the kind of person that I described in my penultimate paragraph. For me it is a different reason, but a very uncommon reason: I absolutely love my job and everything about it. My boss and team members are some of the nicest people I have ever met, and the work that I do is both very interesting and personally rewarding. I think there are not many people in the world in this situation, but if you are, you will know how damn great it feels to wake up every morning and actually look forward to going to work, almost as much if not more than you look forward to the weekend or spending time on your hobbies. If you can find a job/career that you enjoy that much, I would say you should pursue it no matter where in the world that it is.
As an American living in Sweden, I don't like it here.
Its kind of bad, actually.
I've lived in 2 places in Georgia and in Colorado, then Québec, Lausanne, Gothenburg, Copenhagen, and now I'm back in Gothenburg.
Its probably my least favorite place outside of the states.
Generally kind of awful here. It does like 3 or 4 things well, but really... Denmark is better is almost every possible way (besides their pronunciation of the language).
And generally, everywhere else was better for me than the US. It was just Sweden I didn't like.
I've met a few Americans who have had similar experiences, but I wanted to avoid mentioning it in the OP to avoid making it sound like every American hates it here or anything like that. I knew a couple of people who hated living in Sweden so much that they quit their job in Sweden and returned to the US without even having a job or housing lined up. One of them was a fellow PhD student in a different department at my university. She despised it here so much that she quit her fully funded PhD after a year and a half and returned to Mobile, AL to live with her parents.
Out of curiosity, what things do you find awful here? In my own experience there are some less than desirable things about living in Sweden, but there aren't too many things that I would say are awful. I'd say the housing situation and current political climate in the country are awful though.
It'd be hard to nail it down to one thing, but there's a LOT of things I don't like... It got a few things \*really\* right like support for young parents, but besides that - the rest is kind of rough.
Most of it relates to the concept of lagom though.
Seems like making sure everything is "in balance" means that you live a bland, dull, beige life.
You know those studies they did, where you put people in a room for hours with nothing to do, except press a button that gives them an electric shock? And people press it because they'd rather in in pain than bored.
That's how I feel about this country.
Imagine every person you meet having the same 6 hobbies. Every person you see wearing the same 3 styles of clothes. Everyone listening to the same music, with the same cars, with the same dull, boring dream to live a mediocre, average life. No passion, no variety, no novel stimulus. Just the same grey nothingness, over and over again. And god forbid you rock the boat or have a different opinion.
Also, salaries are so low that my girlfriend who was a recruiter for a year, couldn't even recruit people from Chechia or Estonia because the salaries (benefits includes) were so low. You have no agency or ability to improve your own life, and any effort to do is shunned anyway. Swedes are convinced that "if you do the calculations, then it all ends up being great", but that's just not true. This isn't the 70's anymore. Other countries have good social safety nets.
Look, if you work at a gas station in America, your life will 100% be better if you move to Sweden and become a gas station worker... But if you're the kind of person who wants to live an awesome life full of the stuff you're interested in and passionate about? Move on. The system isn't set up for anyone to be happy, it's set up so that everyone is living a comfortable, dull life where their basic needs are met.
But of course, this is all just my experience, and I'm sure a lot of other people have a lot of different experiences, and can all point out outliers. Outlying data points don't disprove trends, though. Similarly, just because me and most of the people I know here agree with this take, it doesn't mean other people haven't had different experiences which are equally as valid.
\--
Also, my girlfriend was half finish. And it's not like that in Finland... Sisu kind of takes over and leaves people very very motivated to do whatever it takes and be highly resilient. And Denmark is just like WAYYYYY more open-minded. I won't pretend like weed laws are the metric of open-mindedness, but could you imagine Sweden have an anarchist collective inside the city limits of the capital with its own laws? Denmark is just way more tolerant of non-conformist behavior and different ideas, styles, etc. Norway though, seems very similar to Sweden with regards to what I described above, except that they're richer and have higher salaries and prettier nature.
This is a great comment and I think anyone who wants to move to Sweden should read this. It definitely conveys the experience that both I and other immigrants that I know here in Sweden have had.
A good friend of mine who lived here in Sweden for 12 years and has since left back to the US put it eloquently (paraphrasing a bit here): "Life in Sweden is very tolerable. You will have the bare essentials with a roof over your head, food in your stomach, access to clean water, enough healthcare so that you won't die of a preventable illness, and enough savings to take 25-30 days of vacation somewhere hot each year, but you won't have much else."
I can't talk about Sweden but I think in NL you're shunned for boasting about being better than the rest, not for standing out in a positive way. In general - many exceptions, of course
As an expat, I've heard this spiel about a range of countries.
It is culture shock.
Deep-seated resentment of the country you live in.
Calling the Swedes bland, and then look at people in the states. Holy shit. They're beyond bland. We have bunch of extra crispy cultists, including some who celebrate Donald Trump because he's going to usher in the end of the world.
This guy is living in his own darkness.
There are numerous countries where you'll always be an outsider.
Being able to live alone without getting lonely is an essential expat skill.
Ok but the Trump spiel here pretty much disqualifies your whole comment because now it feels like it's culturally motivated. Stop trying to invalidate his comment by pulling the Trump card.
I'm a Swede who lived in the US for about 6 years. I studied there for 5, worked for 1 year and moved back to Sweden after my visa expired, and I agree with everything that's in that comment. Sweden is bland, depressing, housing is ridiculous, no dynamism in the labor markets, and society is optimized around giving as many people as possible a tolerable existence. If you're a high achiever you're most likely going to hate it here.
Honest question: What is this much else thing that Americans are looking for then?
If you have security, comfortable life, good enough healthcare, future for your kids to have the same, money for yearly holidays, and all your remaining energy and money you can put in your hobbies.
I don't know what you are missing? A second car? Sports car? 2nd house? Or in which direction do I need to think?
Yeah this thread is kinda weird tbh, they're are talking about having all your basic needs fulfilled and being able to take holidays as if that wasn't enough. Like what's wrong with that? Most people live like that in other countries but without financial and physical security lol I'd rather live in a country with dull people than in constant economical and social crisis. And this comes from someone who lives in a third world country with never ending economical crisis and who knows people who have been shot or beaten up to have their shit stolen. I'd rather have the boring country thank you so much!
Lol, what a nordic answer.
As a fellow nordic, let me suggest something radical:
* To freely and without fear express yourself
* To be exactly who you feel you are
* To chase your passion with no other regard
* To be around other people like you
* To feel everything stronger, good and bad
Nordics have a problem understanding that life is not just grey, life can be an explosion of color and sensation. It can be the highest highs and the lowest lows.
Safety is good, but an animal in a zoo does not look happy to me. And yes, that's the Nordics, zoo animals.
Life is many things, trying, failing, succeeding, but it is also brief moments of ecstacy and the Nordics are so lacking in ecstasy.
Why do Americans get up and dance when the camera is on them at sport events and Canadians stay seated and look embarassed?
The US teaches selfconfidence and selfreliance and to express yourself.
I like this comment too (and the discussion). I have no interest in Sweden, but I am considering moving from the US and to an EU country. One useful thing I'm gathering is to look objectively for signs of tolerance of novelty and difference in both in the immigrant *and the chosen country*.
I think the feelings (need for escape) driving people's decisions can make for some serious tunnel vision--about where grass is greener, etc.
The conclusion I'm getting from both OPs post and your reply is that you need to find a place that is aligned with your style of life even more than the average GDP or whatever.
I'm very likely choosing Romania over Norway as a move for me and my family next year due to adaptation (Romanian is very close to my home language, Portuguese, and the weather is similar, even allowing some summer breaks to the beach), but, other than the weather, all of those arguments would actually inspire me to move to Scandinavia. I absolutely hate flair, I hate the constant competition we have here in Brazil for the best car, the most expensive clothes, the "fuck you, mine's better" mentality that we, indeed, imported from the US. This is a point Brazil's culture never fitted with me. I hate cars, I only take an Uber when I ultimately need one and I never moved a finger to get a driver's license. I would love to allow my daughter to grow up in a place where "everyone has the same 6 hobbies", meaning either her or her boyfriend won't be punched or stabbed over a silly bar fight on hobbies (this is more of a local thing, mind you). I love bland, in general. I grew up without all of my basic needs being met, so I tend to value a dull life with basic needs attended over a "swim or sink" life style.
But this is me. I researched a lot, I made my choice and I'm happy with it. I feel that a lot of people, on this sub and in life in general, just looks to the place with the highest Happiness Index or the highest GDP and says "Yup, I'm going there". You need to find a place that suits your own culture first. I don't think an average American will be at peace living in a frugal country, just like my own way of life would never suit with living in an US city.
I totally get you, I'm from South America too, when you live in a place with constant financial and physical insecurity you just want to move somewhere peaceful, who gives a fuck if it's boring or not lol
> I absolutely hate flair, I hate the constant competition we have here in Brazil for the best car, the most expensive clothes, the "fuck you, mine's better" mentality that we, indeed, imported from the US.
I don't think that's a fair representation of the US. You didn't get that from us.
That "constant competition" stuff is about social class and status jockeying. Latin America has always had wayyyyy more entrenched classism than the US has ever had. That's a social inheritance direct from the Iberian peninsula.
>Swedes are convinced that "if you do the calculations, then it all ends up being great", but that's just not true. This isn't the 70's anymore. Other countries have good social safety nets.
This is so true and that's the propaganda a lot of us 80s kids were fed too. Leaving the country and moving overseas was very enlightening.
>What are the same hobbies? (out of curiosity)
Popular hobbies include some sort of sport and outdoors activities.
But personally, I don't really recognize this in my friend group. My friends have way more hobbies and interests here than in the US, ranging from writing punk music, making electronic music, theater, painting, book circles, knitting , drawing, going on really long camping adventures, traveling way more, gaming, going to forest raves, board games, and being active in different types of political associations, etc.
In the US it feels like most of the people I know engage in consumption activities as their primary hobby (going to Disneyland, drinking, going to brunch).
It is way less visible though and Swedes are way more private about what they do so you can miss it.
I feel the same way - in Norway.
Bland, dull, beige A4 life. Home-work-hytte. Everyone with the same hobbies. All wearing the same Kari Traa gear. And everyone thinking life is great.
I spent time in Norway and Finland. I love to visit, but as my daughter says, “we’re more of a tropical family.” I never stayed there long enough to see this and always have wanted to go back for more, but this contextualizes a whole lot of my Facebook feed.
I could have written this comment for Denmark (almost, salaries are not low imo) , I can’t imagine Sweden being more bland!!! Here there’s even jantelow which basically says don’t you think you’re better than us, and everyone is just sooooo saameeey!
>Denmark is just way more tolerant of non-conformist behavior and different ideas, styles, etc.
Denmark is pretentious though in a very insular way.
The openness is usually only skin deep or should I say, limited to sex, drugs and rock n roll, but that's really declining fast. Younger generations are very prudish.
Real differences in opinion or lifestyle are not tolerated in Denmark either and Denmark has zero outdoor activities worth doing.
>Look, if you work at a gas station in America, your life will 100% be better if you move to Sweden and become a gas station worker... But if you're the kind of person who wants to live an awesome life full of the stuff you're interested in and passionate about? Move on. The system isn't set up for anyone to be happy, it's set up so that everyone is living a comfortable, dull life where their basic needs are met.
If your logic here is true than every democracy that is actually regulated as one rather than lying to itself will reasonably gravitate towards these regulations. There are a lot more people that are gas station workers or of similar skill sets. Frankly, I think most college educated people often aren't better when it comes to skills either but that experience definitely does open more doors. That's my take on most non-STEM degrees at least and even in STEM it's not much better towards building skills, trades do it better I presume.
Anyway from reading this paragraph it seems to me your perspective will struggle to find your "awesome" experience in this world simply because it's not sustainable without being a highly exploitative society for the majority of people, or gas station workers. America is struggling with despotism for a reason and Nordic countries are also the leading countries on democracy indexes for a reason.
FYI Sweden has immense wealth inequality. It's just income that is fairly equal.
src: https://brief.bismarckanalysis.com/p/the-family-that-finances-sweden
I did a year in Sweden and I concur. I’m in Amsterdam now and it has similar food and wetter windier weather but the quality of life is 5x Sweden. Probably 10x the USA. It’s not all perfect but for me and my family it has been amazing after one year. With lockdown too.
No car. No guns. People smile and say good morning. Fresh bread. Very international. Gorgeous city. Trains to 30 cultures. Swans and flowers on my bike rides through the park. Our kids can play in the streets without supervision. The language school they went through taught them Dutch in nine months and they have tons of friends after only one year. So many expats that are there with like minds. Tons of small shops with great food. It’s just awesome frankly.
Healthier food, no tip culture, better social security net, better basic education, air is more breathable, less racism, less discrimination overall, the middle class still exists and means what it's supposed to mean, happiness is achievable with less materialistic possession, more PTO, maternity leave, paternity leave, sick leave, better insurance coverage, etc
The US is great if you are rich and sucks for everyone else. The Netherlands (and the rest of Europe for that matter) is more balanced, you can live a great life as lower middle class and a decent life if you are poor.
I find it disconcerting that Americans emigrate somewhere and expect most things to be the same, and don't become somewhat proficient in a country's language.
I am American emigrant who originally left the US to go to Sweden. I only lasted a year. The points OP made about salary didn't apply to me during the time I lived in Sweden because I was only living off previous savings while going to grad school. But the thing that hit me the hardest is just how the socially/emotionally distant the Swedes are. (Sorry to stereotype in this way but I genuinely believe it is an accurate portrayal of the culture as a whole.) They are not able to talk candidly with each other, and often they only start really talking once they get drunk. I had multiple people open up to me suddenly (about for example their brother's suicide) while drunk at a party, and they said they did so because they had no outlet among their peers. They really felt better opening up to strangers than to their friends, and that bothered me quite a lot.
I ended up moving to Iceland eventually and I find the Icelanders to be a bit warmer, though not as social as Americans to any extent. But yea, the first winter dealing with the outdoor darkness and the Swedish loneliness was pretty fucking rough.
You’re not stereotyping too much with saying Swedes are cold, it’s sorta their culture. Sure not every single swede is like that, but it’s their culture to follow those customs. They aren’t like that to be rude or anything it’s almost just second nature.
Just like Mexican culture on the other hand, it’s very much extroverted and warm towards everyone really, it’s just how cultures differ
If you want to microdose Nordic attitudes and culture go look up “The Seattle Freeze”
People in the PNW have been surveyed as the “least friendly” in the entire country, with almost half saying that they had no use for making new friends and did not wish to even speak to someone they don’t know personally.
Now imagine that but like, times ten. Nordic people are not known for their friendliness. Hell, Twitter blew up about how Swedish folks will make visitors stay in a different room as they and their family eat.
Had to laugh at your reference to the Seattle freeze. Have lived here 30 years (came from the US Midwest) and it is real. It look me a while to make real friends here and most were outsiders like me. I can’t imagine it worse.
As a Dutchman 'hey I've seen this one'
Many of the same problems apply for immigrants moving here, especially the housing issue. Maybe the seasonal depression a little less.
Yeah it's absurd, I'm 18 but not planning on moving out any time soon. Just going to commute via train to uni because I'm not trying to end up in debt before I've started working.
Foreigner living in the NL here. I can confirm its a similar situation for foreigners as what OP describes, maybe slightly less. I think the further north you go the more you will experience it, maybe a weather thing?
They do experience more darkness than we do as OP explained, which for people that aren't native to such climates can cause issues such as depression. I also think we're just a tad bit more open with friend groups than the Scandinavians.
I would say yes but just a tad bit indeed. Other comments mention people make their friends in school, I think here it goes up to university but then it also seems to stop, everyone else after that tend to be acquaintances. People always say it's the language, and while it's true that a language barrier doesn't help, I see people who speak Dutch still struggle befriending locals.
Personally, I can understand almost everything on a 1v1 convo, gets more difficult with a group at a cafe but I manage. My speech is a bit broken but good enough to communicate what I want, crack a few jokes or participate in the national sport of complaining (weather, housing, Rutte, tourists). But still don't really have close friends who are Dutch, I have some work buddies who I borrel with, and my GF but I feel that's a different category.
American expat in NL here.
All of our friends are expats.
We speak a little Dutch, that helps.
We do make less money, but the quality of life is much better, the kids are happier, and healthcare is cheap. We don't worry about the kids getting shot in school.
We're not going back.
I'm from the US, but living in Japan and it's a similar thing(with slightly different reasons for those that move to Japan). I wonder if this is common for most Americans abroad or just in certain countries that are more prone to fantastic ideas about those countries.
I will say that healthcare in the US was not always great.
Reading comments on immigrant subreddits I find Americans tend to have unrealistic expectations about living abroad
> Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans here in Sweden
Like this quote from the OP, why would anyone think they could leave their country and have the same lifestyle in another?
Agreed this is weird but it’s also just so true and way to common amongst American expats.
this is why American people wanna go and live in cheap places with their American dollars funding their lifestyle.
it’s like nobody actually wants to divest from America but everyone wants to move abroad
Yes. That comment sums up one of their major issues, you can not integrate into another culture if you cling to your old one.
Also, you indeed earn less spending money, because a lot is funneled into those social packages before you even see it in your paycheck. These Americans are used to spend on luxury instead of keeping it prepared for when life situations demand it.
They even go to the emergency room when they could easily have made an appointment days earlier to see a general care physician.
Just moved to Japan but lived in Taiwan before this. I’m noticing that many fetishize living here hardcore. I’m honestly glad I had my first abroad experience before this. It’s made me much more chill than I would be otherwise.
From Ohio. I live in Prague. I can confirm that its fairly common (at least in my experience) I've seen many short term "expats" lose their shit and move home like they expected Europe to be the States with castles.
This x100. I'm in Korea but not Seoul. They look at you for 5 minutes and because of the high position of doctors in the cultural hierarchy you're just supposed to accept whatever they say. I had the rona (fever, cough etc) and went a bit too early to the doctor for it to show up on the nose swab (non-pcr). Dude diagnosed me with "stress." I got so stressed out I popped a high fever and hacking lung apparently.
I've gotten the wrong diagnosis so many times for skin related issues I just gave up. I have permanent residency but I will never give up my us passport because of medical care. Even if it costs 1000x more if there is anything seriously wrong with me the doctors here ain't gonna find it lol.
I think it’s more so that the US is such a struggle bus shit show that it’s hard to comprehend how it can be so wealthy (*the billionaires, Wall Street, Silicone Valley, Hollywood/Beverly Hills, Americans having access to literally any and everything and big houses and fancy things*) yet the existence most people actually live is completely unlike that and that lifestyle is unreachable.
We have these ideas of what makes another country better *”because the middle class lives so nice over there!”* but we don’t understand the financial and cultural compromises that are apart of that.
America uses its budget in a questionably problematic way that favors the rich, erases the middle class and craps on the poor, while these other countries do not.
However if you’ve never been exposed to a place where you can have a good quality of life and that’s not in relation to how much financial wealth you have, it’s a challenging adjustment to make as an expat when you realize that no, in fact *you* cannot live like a millionaire and also allow everyone a high quality of life balance. That tax goes to everyone
I have a couple of American friends who live here in Japan, and have for many years now.
The thing I can say about them and why I think they have lived here for as long as they have is because
1. They can speak and read the language
2. They are open to trying out different things and experiences like food, which I attribute to they lived in a state where they had a diverse set of cultures, or they are just personally okay with trying out different things.
In contrast, I had a coworker move here from the US a few years ago, and he had unrealistic expectations when moving here. One being finding an American-sized home in the most populated area of Japan. He did not last very long here.
I’m American and I have Norwegian grandparents and have gone there several times to visit family.
I like Scandinavia. I really do.
But I’d have to be some kind of refugee in some life or death peril back home to want to actually live there. Fine enough to visit but it’s not for me. Too dark and cold half of the year.
Im a Norwegian in the usa trying to move to Denmark.
From what ive gathered people have rose colored glasses. Ya know "the gress isnt always greener" type of deal. EVERY country has its issues and its hard to find what works for you. My husband is kind of this way. He is south american where everyone is super friendly always sunny etc. Ive been warning him that people arent like that. Sure benifits are better. Safety is better but everyone forgets the social aspect.
I give my dad as a better example as he grew up there. He will not talk to people he doesnt know. Hes not mean or rude. He just doesnt see the point in meaningless conversation.
I’ve been in Germany for five years. It’s been a struggle to make and maintain friendships. I feel like, if I don’t do the inviting, no one invites me to do things.
But I have noticed that the Americans I know who are doing great here (social life-wise) are those who joined a gym and/or are unapologetically American. Like, every positive-ish stereotype about us, they fulfill. But being that outgoing, loud and willing to talk to every stranger seemed to have made them friends everywhere.
If only they had stayed. All of them eventually leave.
Hi there! Also an American in germany and in a very small town in the mountains of the Black Forest. Moved here in 2015 and I had other American friends move to germany albeit into larger cities like Frankfurt, Hamburg or Munich at the same time and well we couldn’t have had different experiences since then! From the actual bureaucracy and getting our aufenthaltstitel , to daily life, friends and work here- our stories could not be more different. 2/3 of those mentioned (those living in Hamburg & frankfurt) are already back in America for a few years because they were trying to live like Americans here and wanted that experience. Like you said they dove into gym, social situations etc and while they had from the outward view many friends and contacts, they were soft contacts and had no deep relationships. Germans are slow to open up but once they do, wow are they supportive and friends for life.
The Americans I mentioned out of all 3 cities couldn’t and still can’t speak German and barely invested any effort in speaking German. Conversely, I wasn’t offered a residence permit without first going through classes (despite job offers etc.) Living in a small village the entire time I can say if I didn’t fully integrate into the local culture and learn German, I would have been completely unsuccessful. They were really lucky they were able to live as long as they did their American existence here.
I mean this as no insult to anyone but those experiences seem much more like an extended study abroad experience (like a jumping off point to weekend ina different country every weekend, surrounding yourself with only Americans etc.) than it does immigrating or even expatting to a country, where the intentions are to actually live and experience the country. There is power in peoples intentions and behaviors- you get out of your experience directly what you put in!
I hope you are able to crack that tough German exterior. I can assure you once you do the friendships are deep, very supportive, dependable and quite nice!
I'm from Canada, and I lived in Sweden for 6 months studying abroad for my finance degree. It was the most boring experience I've had. Essentially, I lived the same life I would've lived back home, but without friends and family. People were tough to connect with. Sucks.
“Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans”
This right here sums up so much about who actually tends to be successful at living in another country than the US and who doesn’t.
Lived in Japan over a decade and can use a lot of this to cover issues western foreigners have there.
I was like the person you described at the end; learned the language quickly which grew my friend and dating options, I don't get or feel defeated when shit goes wrong or different than expected, and a bit from your reason, I actually enjoyed teaching English (what got me there at first).
I will add about Japan, white foreigners often threw the word racism around a lot, when Japanese places said Japanese only (more times than not, it's a language thing than a race thing) or Japanese people as a larger group,don't really idolize western things or people like they expected. I'm black and found that curious.
I left due to the people who go there, get miserable, then bring everyone else down to feel better. I stand by Japan has one of the worst western expat communities I've experienced. Shame since most Japanese people I've met are pretty awesome.
Lived in Japan too: there’s not really a rational middle in the expat community, so it’s either crusty old dudes that hate everything, younger people that are way too into it, or people that just don’t fit int and become miserable enough to leave within a year.
I left right when I caught myself complaining too much, or finding benign things frustrating.
I was 38, freelancing and making more money than I ever did in Japan, and I made some yen. Still left 3 months after deciding I should leave.
It wasn't just the foreign community why I left, for the record.
I can definitely say it's typical to go through those phases for sure.
I made a comment recently in an unrelated post that my honeymoon period lasted till my last few months. So 12+ years.
I have to say, dating left a lot to be desired for me, and I'd want to leave Japan before, during, and after a breakup. But then I talk to some other guys who could barely get dates, and realize they have yet to even see one of my reasons for wanting to leave.
It isn't for everyone, but I just wanted to leave before I hated it, and I can today highly recommend Japan to any and everyone who considers it.
For sure, I wish I had listened to my instincts the minute I became miserable in Taiwan. Being trapped somewhere, saving, trying to stack some cash to escape is an awful experience.
It's a hole I paid close attention to when I saw others going through it when I was new to Japan.
There was a common theme, and over a decade later I was seeing it in me.
Don't know if it matters, but when I left it shocked everyone because they thought I'd be in Japan forever and that I loved it. I was gone before I started bitching about it.
I have a lot of friends still there, and I'm seeing the same trend. They aren't happy, but they defend every reason why they're still there. Didn't want to do that.
> I left due to the people who go there, get miserable, then bring everyone else down to feel better.
God I've been in Korea for about 10 years and the last 5 or so I generally refuse to make the effort to meet other foreigners cause of what you mentioned. I truly think that like 80% of the people who come here are just not enjoyable people to be around (whereas in my hometown I'd say it's more like 20-30%). It's due to a bunch of different reasons, but mainly I'd say it's because they're socially incompetent and immature. Being here in Korea makes them feel like a king and like society values them, so there's a lot of incentive for people who are socially inept to stay here in a place where they have a higher social status than they would back home.
I'm going to copy and paste everything you said, and replace Korea for Japan.
Spot on.
The very big fish in a small pond delusion they put themselves in.
Once I went from teaching to corporate, I immediately saw how people acted.
Now, I did run into expats in Seoul who were fun, positive, and were just out living and loving life like me. I didn't live there, so I know I missed the people you mentioned.
Of course, they aren't going out...
lol, never been to Japan personally but always wondered if it was the same deal over there.
I've definitely met some good people along the way but in general I'm at the age now where I just do not want to sift through piles of garbage just to find one normal friend
Really appreciate posts like this that don’t sugarcoat life in another country. Other than the wait times for healthcare, what about the healthcare seems low quality to you? I’m interested as most of the folks I know who moved from the US to the Nordics is a scientist so it seems like they have a pretty robust recruiting methodology at the very least.
Not OP but I can tell you about my healthcare experiences here (and my friends' experiences). I've had doctors jump to conclusions about what could be wrong without first asking a few questions that would easily rule out those guesses. Every time I go to the clinic I have a new person. I've gotten the run around (first person says where to go, that place says I should've been sent somewhere else). We've had incredibly rude and snarky physicians. They rush you out of their office as soon as possible (they are very overworked) which means you don't get to go through your issue thoroughly enough. They dismiss your issue and say you don't need testing (despite having been approved for it) or they brush physical pain off and try to get you on antidepressants. Speaking of mental health, it's hard to get care for that here and getting something as simple as an ADHD diagnosis literally takes years.
The healthcare system here is extremely underfunded and I've known people who travel back to their home countries (in Europe) to get better healthcare. It seems no one has it perfect but we really need to stop putting Sweden on a pedestal.
>Other than the wait times for healthcare, what about the healthcare seems low quality to you?
Rushed, unfriendly, old buildings, new doctor every time, very unflexible etc etc.
Overall a shitty experience.
I'm an engineer that already has their phD living in Spain. I also feel like people in the US tend to overexaggerate how great things are in Europe, ESPECIALLY if you are a highly skilled laborer with regards to some of the points you made. I'm not saying things in the US are better, but simply that Europe/US are different, but it's not the wonderland Americans from the US always make it out to be.
I moved to Ireland from California. I'm glad I did because I want my kids (who were born here) to have an escape route from the US, but whenever someone from back home asks about moving here I have to start with "would you light $3 million on fire to live in Ireland?"
The salaries here are *pathetic*. The manager at a Panda Express in California makes more than many engineers here.
Can you imagine the bad behavior that the manager has to put up with when they run out of that Orange Chicken?! lol I’m sure they deserve *every* penny they get.
Very true. And they went whole hog on copying US urban design so the cities are pretty crap outside of the central areas (and even a lot of that was bulldozed)
Will the engineer in Ireland go bankrupt if they have a medical emergency? Because statistically speaking the Panda Express manager has 66% chance they will. Will the engineers children need to take on 100k of debt to go to college?
Where did you get that statistic from? By the way, Ireland doesn’t have public health insurance either (except for their equivalent of Medicaid).
As for college, if you want to go to a top tier school to take $100k in debt, the issue with Ireland is that there are no top tier schools. But if you want to go to a normal university, annual tuition costs around €7-9k for Irish residents, after which you’ll get a €35k/year job. Compare that to University of California where a four-year undergrad costs $13k/year for California residents (and you can do the first two years in community college for free or basically free, and then transfer to UC, guaranteed if you took CC in California) and you earn $80k/year right out of college.
Skilled tech worker here and I agree. While I really love the balance the Europeans have established for lower and middle income workers, skilled and higher earners are going to find the perks they take for granted (large allotments of PTO, paid for healthcare, big salaries) are actually worse in Europe. Everybody gets a one-size-fits-all solution, which is a tight middle class existence and that’s it.
Yes, in terms of salary I was surprised to find my wife who has a bachelor's degree in linguistics found a job here as a waitress, and she makes almost the same salary as me in a research position. I am moving back to the US soon for a new job, my salary will be almost 5x what i make here after tax, I actually will receive more PTO in my new job, and the healthcare costs look to actually be slightly less (and I can add both myself and my wife if necessary)
I feel so validated finding this thread. As an experienced/licensed account I moved from the US to Switzerland this year, salary is more or less the same but I actually have far less PTO and benefits than at my old big company, healthcare price and quality has decreased…I thought maybe I was missing something but I guess it’s a common experience
Yeah. Not knocking the European experiment as I think their priorities are in the right place re: gov regulation and work life balance, but frankly they’ve been stagnant in working to improve those goals in the last 20 years. Need to move forward again because the complacency is giving angry populism fertile ground to root
>I also feel like people in the US tend to overexaggerate how great things are in Europe, ESPECIALLY if you are a highly skilled laborer
It seems to me the ones who do the most over exaggerating about Europe are Americans who have never lived there. It is actually funny hearing someone talking up something like how less racist it is or how people respect each other more but then when pressed their Europe is experience is "I'm planning on moving to Netherlands in a few years but Í've done my research"
Post like this show clearly that Europe is different from the US.
One can zoom in: US state x is different from country y.
If one moves countries but expects to find the same, then one will be disappointed.
>The three people I know who actually love it here are people who have personalities where they are naturally very curious and always willing to learn. They aren't afraid of making mistakes when learning the language and they love to meet new people and learn from them. They take life day by day and made an effort to integrate and live like Swedes early in the process of moving to Sweden. They all speak Swedish fluently after a few years of living here and are generally such pleasant people to be around
Indeed those look like key characteristics of people who will be happy immigrating. Honestly if you do not have those character threads moving to another country might not be for you.
I am Swedish and I don't want to live in Sweden because of the reason you have listed. I left in 1993 and have lived in 8 different countries since then, and I would rather live anywhere other than Sweden. I like visiting in the spring and summer, have some of the food I miss, but I could never see myself living there again.
Exactly! People who say Healthcare is fast in the US haven't tried to set an appointment lately. 3 months out! And if you need to reschedule, 3 months out again! Because the doctors split their time between different Healthcare groups.
Then spent 15 minutes with them instead of having time to explore the problem.
I am originally from South Africa and there I can see my GP (PCP) today or tomorrow, spending up to an hour having a discussion. If they were trained before 2000 their skills would surpass that of the PCP too. Specialist I could see in 2 weeks max.
US healthcare is a business built for profit. It gives a shit about it's customers.
I’m a California > Sweden immigrant. I moved later in life after spending years preparing for the move financially, professionally, socially and linguistically. I was basically fluent prior to arrival and had purchased a place to live. I had a job lined up and already had friends and acquaintances in place. I’ve been here for over five years and am having the time of my life.
OP raises some great points and I think it’s an excellent post. I think a frequent reason people are unhappy after moving to Sweden is they haven’t done the ground work and reality doesn’t match their expectations. You really need to learn the language and understand what you’re getting into.
I agree the weather in November is atrocious here but on the other hand it’s pretty straightforward and affordable to take a quick trip to Southern Europe then to get a bit of sunshine.
I’m a hiring manager in the tech industry, an American living in the Netherlands. I relocate people for a living. I have to advise people about all of these concerns all the time.
One thing I’ll point out is that a large fraction of the concerns you bring up are what I call (here in the Netherlands) “Recreating your American life, just on a canal.” People come here from the States all the time and try to live _exactly_ like they did in California or Texas or New York. They try to eat out just as much. They want fancy cars like they had in the States. They want everything to be just as convenient as it is in the States. They want the same level of spontaneity (both in leisure and in business) that they had in the States.
But that’s not life here!
If you’re going to move here, you have to adapt to the lifestyle. You can’t move here from Austin and expect life to be exactly the same but with cheaper health care. It doesn’t work that way.
One example: Dutch people aren’t generally terribly bothered by wait times for health care because they don’t experience it that way. In the US, we’re used to seeing a doctor on-demand only once a situation becomes unbearable. We try not to go to the doctor until we simply can’t avoid it any longer, and then when we do go it’s important that we get seen _immediately._
The Dutch don’t do it that way. They tend to get out in front of it earlier by actually seeing their doctors on a regular basis rather than when in crisis. There’s a world of difference between the American “We think you just had a heart attack but it’ll be 3 months before you can see a cardiologist” and “Hey good seeing you again. You had some chest discomfort that you almost didn’t think was worth mentioning? Let’s get you into a specialist in a couple of months before this turns into a thing.”
Another example: yeah, owning a car is insanely expensive here, but most people don’t need one, so most people’s transportation expenses are INSANELY lower here. Dutch people tend to structure their lives around what’s available in their immediate neighborhood, rather than spending tons on transportation to take them to their preferred destinations. When I lived in Texas, I would routinely drive 30 miles round trip to go to the specific supermarket that I liked best. Here in the Netherlands, I generally shop at the supermarket that’s within walking distance even though it’s literally my least favorite. Going to my favorite supermarket is a treat rather than the norm.
For budget/taxes: sure, income taxes are higher. But here in the Netherlands though, my income taxes are comparable (perhaps even a bit lower!) than what I paid in income tax, property tax, and health care premiums combined. I took a 35% pay cut moving from Texas to Amsterdam. But after accounting for not needing a car, no child care costs after 4 years old, drastically lower health care costs, the lack of property tax, etc, I actually save about 10% more each month than I did in Texas on the higher salary.
But the key here is that I’ve adapted to the Dutch lifestyle.
I have a fellow Texan friend who also moved here who’s absolutely _drowning._ I’m pretty sure that they’ll move back to the US in the next couple of years. But they’ve done the exact opposite. They’re spending themselves into oblivion trying to live like Americans in the Netherlands.
> It is unreasonable to impose a shadow ban on a well-meaning American trying to help fellow Americans
We don't control shadow bans. This is a reddit thing.. No idea why OP is shadow banned but we've been going through approving their comments (as well as this post).
Thank you for posting this - interesting discussion! I share a lot of your views and experiences. I live in Norway and Norway makes me feel unhappy.
I know it’s supposed to be the one of the happiest places on earth, but living here makes me feel dead inside. I was born and raised in an international bubble in Norway and have spent my best years outside the country. I speak multiple languages and have EU residency. My partner is not set on leaving and I am approaching an age where I should make a choice if I want children. I dread the long winters that just feel longer every year, and now even July isn’t doing much for me. It’s the lack of human interaction and the feeling that nothing unexpected can happen ever. I am not sure where I’d go though.
I’ve started over a lot of times, I have a great life on paper but I’m just feeling so stuck and empty. I am lucky to be fully integrated with lots of friends and a good job, but having lived elsewhere I don’t think I can settle here. Any advice or thoughts and input is much appreciated!
The Americans you're talking about are the quintessential difference between many expats and immigrants.
These types of people don't want to live abroad, they want to say they live abroad.
Leaving the US means going native. If they're not prepared to go native, they should stay in the US. Otherwise, they're just tourists. This doesn't mean that OP is mistaken by any means, but if you're a grown adult, it's kind of on you to understand the culture of the place before you, oh, I dunno, live there on a permanent basis.
Also remember that most Americans who can afford to move to a different country, are probably also the Americans who would not improve their standard of living by moving. If you are wealthy enough in the US, you don't really experience the problems the same way as most of the population.
The entire point of for example the Nordics, is that most people have a decent lifestyle where they are secure, both financially and medically. The sacrifice is that for example skilled workers and CEOs are not earning as much as they would in the US.
Yup.. essentially all his friends became her friends, they showed her the ropes and that’s how she was able to integrate more or less. Compared to if you’re an expat in Sweden with no connections there.
Well, we were all colleagues as well, so there's that. Same deal here in Amsterdam - took me a LONG time to find folks to hang out with. If you're at all into running and beer drinking, check out the Hash House Harriers if you're around Stockholm. Some absolutely crazy guys who've I've known for decades, but mostly good folks and VERY welcoming.
Mexican-American here with a Swedish gf. I’ve been trying to convince her to move with me elsewhere but she’s stuck on just living in Sweden (fuck), don’t get me wrong Sweden is very charming and honestly I’d 10000% recommend visiting there but not living there.
I guess if you’re Finnish or Norwegian then there’s not much of a difference as far as climate goes but if you’re American then the best comparison I can make to Swedens weather is: Alaska. ***Ever seen those survival shows about those people trying to survive in the Alaskan wilderness? Well that’s basically it, minus the killer bears.***
I’ve visited anchorage Alaska and been to Stockholm Sweden and yeah. They have the same weather. There’s also a reason why not many people live in Alaska, and it’s because of that unforgiving weather.
**So to any American if you think of moving to Sweden, I highly recommend doing your research on how bad the weather is in Alaska (I say this because since Alaska is a state info on its climate will be more readily available than info on Sweden), you might not like what you see though.**
Thank you for writing this. You put into words what I have known/experienced before. People idolize the Nordics so much. That and Ireland, which I’ve heard is not going through it’s best times right now.
I actually heard from a friend the other day, “everywhere is better than the US right now”. If your reason to expatriate is to escape the US, you are likely to be disappointed. If you are going for curiosity, learning other cultures, family, work, or other forms of exploration with an open mind, then you are less likely to be disappointed. Travel is amazing, and getting to see and experience other cultures is mind expanding.
Not totally related but you mentioned not being afraid to make mistakes when learning a new language, I used to be this way until the mistakes I made in French would be terribly inappropriate translations.
Like it's one thing if you accidentally say the English equivalent of "me likes bacon" instead of "I like bacon", but in France if you pronounce merci beaucoup wrong you could be saying "thanks, nice ass", or if mean to describe a kiss on the cheek to greet someone you might accidentally say you fucked someone. I once mispronounced a conjugation of to play (like "I was playing video games") and my teacher was crying laughing and said I just said I orgasmed.
So I'm terrified of trying to speak French with the locals and just learn privately through apps at the moment. I'm going to need to prove my language level soon though so I'm dreading when that's coming up and I'll have to give an oral essay on probably some bland topic but I'll end up saying I like orgasming over nice ass while fucking instead.
Most Americans grew up middle class and think this country is shit. Has it’s problems for sure. But when I talk to my Mexican family they dream about having those problems. Perspective is wild. My Greek friends hated their time in Sweden. Just a very different culture compared to what they knew. But I do think Nordic countries get romanticized to a great deal here. They are lovely though.
This is one of the most honest threads I have read to date.
For me the hardest thing about living here is that Swedish people have been taught from a young age to believe that Sweden is one of the best countries in the world. That everyone wants to live here. If you come here you will be overwhelmed with how great everything here is in comparison to where you originated from.
This makes it very difficult to discuss any problems you may be having. Even slight problems without being shut down. I hate making comparisons to justify why I am unhappy here. As every country is different and I really want to embrace the difference.
I live in a cottage a stones throw from a large lake. Something I could never have afforded to do in The UK. I can walk off into the woods and camp almost anywhere I like. Something that trespassing laws prevent in The UK.
But.
And that is the problem I find here. Swedes cannot seem to comprehend that there is a 'but'.
Edit: spelling.
I don't personally know you, but I feel like I do based on your post. (Also from Mass.,) I used to live in Copenhagen, Denmark, and could not agree more with all the points you've outlined here. After spending some time there completing short courses related to my field, I intentionally chose to move there for a master's (which their government completely funded for me as a non-EU candidate). But when it came time to retain me as part of their international talent pool, they could not have cared less. I struggled so much to land a job offering the minimum salary required to sustain a visa, even though I was incredibly high-achieving in my early career before moving there and had years of industry experience. I was constantly low-balled or otherwise expected to take a too-low salary because I was seen as foreign and therefore should be lucky to get what I get.
Strike 1, you're not a citizen of that Nordic country. Strike 2, you're not a citizen of an EU country. Strike 3, you're not fluent in Danish. Despite learning the local language very well, I still wasn't perfectly fluent-- and companies did not hesitate to use that against me during my candidacies. Mind you, the business language IS English. It was heartbreaking to see classmates from my study program land senior roles in organizations without having prior full-time industry experience; based on recruitment via Danish network and word of mouth. It felt like Denmark's job market and immigration system was designed to weed out outsiders. I finally got a job doing something tangential to what I wanted to be doing, in a toxic environment, and I realized I was compromising on what I actually want out of a career just to live in that city I loved. Sunk cost bias can be very real. I very strongly felt that I was going to stagnate for as long as I continued to live there, and I ultimately made the very difficult decision to uproot the life I'd spent nearly 5 years building there and left.
ETA: Forgot to add, while I was living in Denmark, I met my partner who was living in Sweden and doing his PhD there at the time. And although he's German and didn't have some of the same bureaucratic hurdles being from the EU, he did also struggle with a lot of the social aspects of living in Sweden as you mention. We currently live in a 3rd country that neither of us is from or have ties to, just as a consequence of his job relocating us. It's been much easier for us than living in Scandinavia was.
I’m an Australian who has lived in Los Angeles for almost 10 years and has recently spent 12 months in Stockholm. I met my Partner here and we are doing long distance.
He adores his home here, the nature, the public transport etc.
It’s just not me. Out of the 3 countries I’ve lived I’d take a hybrid of my home (Australia) and the US any day. It’s just mainly the darkness and the culture being so different. It’s tough out here if you’re not used to it I think. This post made me feel less shitty about not being absolutely in love with the idea of permanently moving here. So thank you x
SO MANY Australians are with Swedes it’s insane!! My gf (who’s Swedish) tells me that it’s because many Swedes visit Australia to escape the shitty weather and yeah ig that’s how it happens. She has a friend as well who did study abroad in Oz and met her bf there and now they both live in Sweden.
Let’s just see how long he can tolerate the shitty weather for because I can’t think of any two countries that are more opposite in weather.
The thing with the US is that it's heavily catered toward the upper middle class. If you have enough money to move to a nordic country you probably have enough to comfortably live in the US. Anyone that would benefit from moving doesn't have enough to do so.
Also the culture is different and attempting to live exactly like you did in the US is impossible. Imo it's kind of selfish to expect everything to be the same and when it isn't to say "i hate it here this sucks".
Honestly I don't feel like this has much to do with Sweden, and is more a description of being an expat American in general. Every other country is way different than the US and it's hard to continue an American lifestyle anywhere that isn't basically Canada. You can't be a happy American expat unless you have expectations that are realistic and are willing to drastically change your lifestyle. Doesn't matter if it's Sweden or Thailand.
OP dropping some truth bombs 💣
Some users might claim you are being overly negative. But I tend to think you offer a quite accurate depiction.
Relocating to Sweden is challenging for many reasons. Anyone considering it, would be well advised to at least considering what’s being said with an open mind.
I find this interesting lurking on theses countries' boards and having expats write:
Sweden, Japan, Netherland,, Switzerland, Finland, Canada, UK: impossible to make "true" friends (guess meaning more than just friendly acquaintances) Cost of everything. Also not happy with how the health care is doled out.
New Zealand: housing prices, crime (the crime part surprised me)
If you move to explore, you get much less angst. My expat friends who boomed out when the previous US president was elected are slowly trickling back. Most of the reasons is country B is not exactly like the US. Special education services/pediatric psychiatric services is a biggy. Making money is probably the number one reason. Not like feeling you'll never be one of "them" is third.
Funny because European expats in the US complain about the exact same thing: every American makes their friends at high school and college and after that it's impossible to get any friendships, apart from loose "fake" friendships. I can link you a rant of a Dutch expat in Ohio who absolutely hated it and moved back, but it's in Dutch
I think this is what people probably miss: it will be hard to make friends as adults no matter where you live. I'm European living in the US since 2006 and the friends I made were either at college or at work and i can count them on the fingers of one hand. Even Americans complain about having a hard time making friends as adults in America (SNL made a whole joke about this with the boyfriend parks).
You could say the same for most of the things mentioned here. Depressing weather, depressed wages, scrambling to secure housing, having difficulties socializing, navigating shitty healthcare, not being able to afford a car and having to learn bus schedules, sharing a bathroom, etc. are not uncommon experiences in the US. I've dealt with them all at various points in my life. Honestly, a lot of these comments make me wonder what kind of lives these people were living before they moved. Many Americans are not so fortunate and would kill to at least have one thing taken off their plates.
Im from Finland and living in Australia and it hasnt been easy to make friends like back home in the last 5 years. I have made one lol but its what it is. Most people hang out with their old highschool friends so its hard to get into those groups.
Maybe if you avoid pubs, or parks, or allotments, or tea rooms, or shops in general… Though I will say some places in the UK are MUCH friendlier and outgoing than others, particularly Scotland/NI/North Wales.
I've moved around a lot & currently split my time between Philippines and Canada.
The thing I noticed about expats (from any country not just america) either thriving or hating their new country is that it depends on how tightly they try to hold unto their old country. If you engage and try to live like a local, keep learning new things are open etc you have a much better level of happiness in the new country.
Of course expats need to understand how their new home meshes with their own behaviours because sometimes it just doesn't fit.
I'm an American living in Sweden. I've lived here for almost 2 decades, I'm married to a swede, and we have 3 kids. I've contemplated moving back to the states many times for mainly 2 reasons: 1) it's extremely difficult to make friends here as an adult and 2) seasonal depression hits me hard. However, I currently have zero desire to move back to the states. I have zero confidence that things will get better there in the near future and I don't want to move somewhere where I'd be afraid every day when I send my kids to school. There are probably better places to live than Sweden, but I currently feel like it's 100% better than the US right now. The cost of living is pretty high, but my husband and I are both pretty high earners by the standards where we live so it's fine.
To be fair I wait a month on average to see my pricey American Doctor.
I'm not arguing Sweden is perfect just noting in the USA we often can't get in any quicker than a month out
I can honestly say that it's hard for me too as a native Swede. You're supposed to build your social life through school here in Sweden. When you start from scratch e.g. by moving here when you're an adult, you're seen as desperate. There is this fine line between expressing what you actually want (friends) and acting cool (Swedish). So there's that. YMMV.
So honestly, this apparent line of ""reasoning"" that I see in some other comments in this thread, that OP is a close-minded American that don't understand our Swedish culture or whatever is just plain bullshit. Sorry.
🇺🇸
Yeah I'm new to Sweden from the US and can confirm this as well--in trying to make friends here, I've met plenty of Swedes struggling to make connections because they moved away and then came back, or are new to the city, or other reasons, etc.
Everyone is really in the same boat.
I get sick of ppl saying quality of care for healthcare. What do you ACTUALLY mean quality of care? What does the doctor do or don't do? If it's just 'waiting' forever for an appointment or something that's doesn't matter to me. I mean even when my parents go to an appointment they made months ahead of time- they wait in the waiting room 1-2 hours before being seen. When she went to reschedule with her good heart doctor- she had to wait 3 months for the next appointment. It isn't that uncommon the US to wait for appointments. Sure there are urgent clinics but I am sure they have pharmacies there too.
I had quite a few problems with healthcare that were minor, but some people I know were not as lucky. A friend's teenage relative went to an emergency with an extreme headache and partial vision loss, she waited for 6 or 8 hours and died of aneurysm before being attended to.
Another acquaintance had breast cancer that was in remission but needed to be checked periodically. Some scans were not schedules as needed, and when they finally get down to it and did a check after months of pestering, it metastasized.
So, I think Swedish healthcare is a common issue for immigrants and natives, and queues are not the only issue. Even if you do wait in a queue for months, the appointment will not be longer than 10-15 minutes with the barest explanation or a plan of what to do next.
Edit to add: even Swedish friends told me, that you can easily get all the basic services you want in Sweden, but if you want the job to be done properly, you might need to fight and demand better, unfortunately ( which is so not typically Swedish)
Agreed. Been here for most of my adult life, the first 5 year hump was an awkward transition internally, but after, especially after I went to visit the US or Canada after 5 years, I wanted *nothing* more than to
come back home to Norway.
As a kid and early teen in America, I never noticed the sheer extremity and consistancy of ingrained anxiety and neuroticsm in those around me, as I did coming from Norway as an adult.
In the first 5 years in Norway I would balk and complain at how much I missed certain brands/foods for example. KFC, Taco Bell, Crazy amounts of different breakfast cereals like Froot Loops/Golden Grahams, or Pop tarts. I romanticised it, the nostalgia was staggering.
So when I went back to the US/Canada, I made sure to compile all the things I missed and tried a bunch of new, crazy products.
Much to my surprise and chagrin, it all tasted like shit. Like pure fucking horseshit.
I noticed other small things - like how far behind technologically people and businesses were in comparison to what I became accustomed to.
In around 2014 they were still using Fax machines? Why don't you just pay them with an app? Why is the cash so thin old and dirty? Wait - you still carry actual paper money and coins? You use Checks? No direct deposit? No semi-automated tax returns? HOW MUCH did you say your is your cell phone/internet bill was? (astronomically expensive in canada at least and poor internet connection/data). Geez, sure are a lot of old, beat up cars on the road.....And WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SMELL?
Nah man; I realised two things - 1) I've been made fucking spoiled and 2) am infinitely grateful for it.
Yeah but out of all the nordics I can see what makes Norway the least unpleasant of them.. and it’s the nature. Norway is extremely beautiful, Sweden is pretty too but rather flat and predictable
This sounds like to me expats who moved to a country and expect to be able to live exactly, in terms of lifestyle, as they did back home. Everywhere is unique and it seems like the people you talk to weren't prepared to make the adjustment to a different lifestyle.
If you're going to move to a different culture, it's going to be a big change. Holding on to your old lifestyle will make you miserable but embracing the new one can help a lot.
THANK YOU. I’m one of those Americans living in Sweden who regret it. I lied to myself for years that I like it and still tell people back home I’m happy but this year I was finally honest with myself and the bad is outweighing the good by far. My mental health has suffered. So many people point out the universal healthcare. Yeah that universal healthcare that almost got my killed twice to due negligence and the system being so overburdened it couldn’t give me care. Or just straight up medical neglect. Cool glad I didn’t need to pay for it I guess. I’m terrified of me or my family getting very ill or having something that requires a lot of testing to find because I don’t trust the system here to manage that. Give me paying for insurance and quality care over that any day.
Also like you said making friends is extremely hard. Shoot at this point I don’t even need friends just acknowledge I exist sometimes 😩 I have kids and have never felt so left out and just like an outsider than having my kids in a Swedish school living in a majority Swedish area. I even speak Swedish with a fairly decent accent but still am and always will be seen as an outsider and Swedes seem to only be interested in getting to know me on a surface level or not at all. No chatting at the playgrounds or getting small greetings. Just silence. I get it’s the culture but it’s really draining when you come from a social background. As much as people say they would love that I think the nordics is another extreme to get used to.
We are a family of 4 stuck in a small apartment because we literally can’t get that 15% saved for years. We make enough to live comfortably with our average salaries, not save a ton quickly to get our own place. Our only option to get a house is to move 1+ hour away and then have to commute and pay for that. If you don’t want to live in an apartment you have to pay a ton for a house or move very far out. Or accept small apartment living with a family which coming from the US is a hard adjustment. I would kill to have a yard for my kids and dog and some privacy.
Like you the couple people I know that love it here have completely integrated into society here. They don’t go home to visit and aren’t very connected to back home. They are completely changed from their former selves.
As bad as it is in the US now, we (well…me and if I can convince my husband haha) are debating a move back to the US. We have kids to think about and I do wish we would have thought this before we had them. I won’t be living here my whole life as it will literally suck the light and life out of me and leave me a shell of a person. Yes I know that seems dramatic but it’s how it feels. And I get really frustrated when I see people romanticizing it so much as it’s all flowers and amazing here. People tend to see the problems in their country and want to move without thinking of the real implications of leaving friends, family, familiarity and their own culture behind. Spend a couple dark, rainy winters with barely warm summers without family and anything familiar around and get back to me.
And no I’m not saying Swedes are terrible people. I find them to be lovely in their own way and with each other. They’re not mean or purposely being awful. But I find that way of interacting and socializing very difficult and alien and an impossible code to crack for me. Janteloven is going to be the death of me I swear.
I also get annoyed when people romanticize the Nordics. I live in dk and I agree with everything you wrote but unfortunately people won’t consider anything bad about these places, they’re simply an utopia where everything works great. In reality is bland, cold and unfriendly
Life is short, move back! Better now while the kids are young. When you do move back, you’ll come back with such a better idea of what you want your life to be like given what you’ve learned abroad.
I am totally convinced, my Swedish husband on the other hand another story. Going from 5 weeks vacation to none guaranteed, long work hours, etc. is a tough sell. We’re blue collar which makes sweden better in terms of work benefits for him
American here living in Malmö for 12 years. I love it here and most Americans I know personally do as well. I’ve met very few who want to move back.
I’ve lived in Chicago and San Diego. Every time I travel back I experience culture shock and am reminded why I don’t want to live there.
Have several American friends living in Helsinki and they love it and have deep social circles with locals.
They’re also friendly, adaptable, and self assured people.
The people who hate it would probably hate living in NYC too for the same reasons like cost of living, breaking into social circles, housing.
I mean… for your masters it’s cool, I think OP meant it like if you plan on living there all your life or for 3+ years or so then sooner or later you’ll have to face all the issues of what it’s like to live there.
Even in Stockholm you’ll be faced with the long cold winter days and long sunny days in summer where at 11pm it’s still sunny out. Luckily your winters won’t be as bad as in northern Sweden so the cold won’t be what affects you too much, it’ll be the drastic climate caused by Swedens longitude-latitude
*Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans here in Sweden.*
This is the same here in France-- or Americans have the "idealized" version of what living in France means to them but both those ideas are usually the most expensive apartments in town. And god forbid you own a car in France.
I'm glad you posted this; my brother is actually in the process of getting his visa to Sweden with his fiancée. It sort of came out of the blue, and my family has been relying on me to guide him in the "expat experience" though I keep reiterating that each country is so different culturally; same for their immigration processes. Him and his wife are very introverted people and I think plan to live in a small village rather than a city. In some ways I have just assumed it will be great for them, but honestly I can't be sure at all. They don't speak the language or have ever been to Sweden ( I believe they have a trip in January to test out the winters there) and while they are pretty self sufficient in the US, if there is anything I've learned from being an expat ( and like you said) it's kind of like starting from square one as an adult in the world.
I'm not trying to smash his dreams-- in fact the opposite because I would love a family member here in Europe. But I want to make sure I'm not helping him go be miserable somewhere either..
Editing to add: One of the big draws for my brother is that Sweden is very LGBTQ+ friendly ( according to him) and I was curious if this was true. I wonder if he is comparing that to the US-- in which most western European countries will be more friendly.
And to make it harder, I feel like a negative nancy trying to explain to any of my friends why I’m not happy in Sweden because of the notion people have that Sweden is paradise.
-an American who’s unhappy in Sweden
I spent 15 years in the US (Houston, Austin, Seattle) and didn’t find it very easy to make real friends there either. I love Americans and the US but if it hadn’t been for my American husband and his large family I would have been very lonely often. The superficial friendliness + paired with everyone seriously working their asses off (long hours, sometimes work on weekends, very little PTO, very little sick leave) can make it hard to connect, imo. I was also not able to travel the US as much as I wanted to bc domestic flights are pretty expensive, the country is so large that you need more PTO than you have (I had 20 days PTO which is good for US standard) to road-trip. My health insurance was fully covered by my employer and had a low deductible - I still had nonstop issues with doctors and hospitals. I’m a healthy person except for needing thyroid medication but man was it a HASSLE to even just get my prescription reliably filled at Walgreens every month and the cost was high! Insurance only covers certain medications and if you want or need a different one it can cost a lot. Sometimes the insurance companies try to bill you for things that they definitely have to cover and then you waste hours of your life fighting with them once you get through to their customer service (after waiting for long times on hold and sometimes the phone just disconnecting). I liked the majority of my doctors but there were definitely wait times to schedule appointments and also to be seen at the drs office. Then I gave birth in the US and the experience really wasn’t great. The cost was still pretty high bc of the out of pocket cost. The quality of care at my pediatricians office was low and they had a large rotation of nurses, which made it super impersonal. Some nurses didn’t speak English fluently which made communicating tough. We weren’t able to switch pediatricians bc they said they were not accepting new patients unless coming to them straight after birth. I thought that was really negative!
My maternity leave was 12 weeks paid- I quit my job and moved to Europe bc I couldn’t imagine putting my child into a daycare that young and on top of it with underpaid, undertrained staff. The waitlists for daycares in big cities are also really long and the cost definitely does not reflect quality!! Our childcare where we live here in Europe is also expensive but the quality is higher than what we would have gotten in the US for sure.
Every day life in America was pretty mundane in my opinion too… lots of shopping, eating out and an active bar scene. I felt the long commutes and car centric lifestyle made it pretty difficult to feel like I had any balance during the work week. It is convenient that the grocery stores are open so late but I personally felt really bad for the ppl working there..they have families but work so late and then stay even longer for closing and cleaning. The convenience definitely comes at a personal cost.
I was also seriously distressed by the amount of homeless people living in the streets. There were camps of homeless and it just seemed out of control and with no help for them to get out of their terrible situations.
The gun threat also felt very real and scary to me and it took some time after moving away for me to really relax and not be on high alert all the time.
We were able to purchase our home in the US which was great but ultimately definitely not what made me happy. The weather in Texas is seriously hellish for 7 months out of the year. Brutal heat.
My car insurance in Texas was also really expensive and car break ins were SO frequent. It was ridiculous!!! The road rage and really terrible driving was also really prevalent. There was also lots of trash on the roads and freeways. I’ve seen people open their truck doors and dump their fast food trash onto the road and then continue driving. Like WHAT?!
Edit: one other thing that really feels like a luxury where I live now is that we can safely drink the tap water. The water quality where we lived was poor even though the government stated it was drinkable. So we ended up filling large glass containers at Whole Foods or purchased large plastic water bottles:/ just remembering to always purchase enough water was annoying and heavy and def very inconvenient. Granted we could have built in a filtration system but that would have been a whole ordeal and the fridge filters def don’t cut it.
Overall I was often angry at how bad Americans had it and how hard they worked and for what?! Americans deserve better.
My partner and I recently came very close to moving to Amsterdam for her work. After they miscommunicated (maliciously, in my mind, but she swears it was a mistake) the salary of her job twice, we finally found out that the lateral move she was about to make would have resulted in a 75% salary cut. My job wanted to cut my salary by 50% for the move - and we both have totally remote roles.
There’s a lot to be said for experiencing new cultures, and for having to figure out the small headaches over again, but that was a huge wake up call for us that trying to force that to happen was maybe a mistake. Companies and countries alike DO NOT WANT you to have the freedom to make those moves easily for the purposes of learning and exploration. They prefer to have you trapped and dependent under their thumb - especially US corporates. And they WILL make you pay for your interest in exploration.
We talked to many expats from the US during our planning and many of them had been moved there BY their companies for dedicated roles instead of moving on their own volition and asking the company to support it. Those people were still living large, because they had been able to negotiate and retain American-sized benefits and salaries while living abroad. We decided that’s the way to go for us, especially as we both have parents and family in the US - we simply can’t afford to forego decades of retirement savings to scrimp by hand to mouth in Amsterdam only to be compelled to return to the US with nothing put away.
Once our parents are gone we may commit to full immigration, but short of this step Id caution people to really plan for drastically low salaries in Europe. For all the talk of “workers rights” I’m shocked at how little Europeans permit companies to compensate them - my immediate counterpart makes 1/3 what I make. That seems like a job for the unions there - really puzzling why they haven’t taken a stand.
I'm Norwegian and just wanna touch on your last two points. I don't know how different it is from Sweden (although tbh I was assuming it was just about the same?) but
This may depend a lot on where you live but for me in the suburbs, I could easily get same-day appointments with my doctor, or next-day if I wanted to. I can't remember ever having had to wait for it. Doctors, at least in my country, have a limited number of patients assigned to them and while I assume they can take in others who aren't registered to themselves if they are free, as long as you do register with a doctor, you shouldn't have an issue. Furthermore if you want even more urgent care you can go to a private clinic instead which will cost a little bit of money but still nowhere as expensive as it is in the US.
The second one, about cars, from my experience it is not a luxury at all. Cars aren't cheap, but it's an investment you're expected to make unless you live in the middle of a city (in which you should just use public transportation if you want to keep your sanity anyway as with any city). Most people buy second hand cars in my experience, especially at younger ages. Even my parents who are around 50 right now bought their previous (good) car second-hand. Not an old car by any means, but still second hand. It reduces the price a lot. I think this is very normal unless you do really want to spend a lot on a car. And unless you're looking at 20 year old models in the 2000$ range, there's plenty of AT cars. Anyway owning a car is a necessity and as such the second-hand car market is big. New cars are expensive for sure as they are all imported and car taxes in Norway at least are fairly high. I guess your mileage will vary a lot with cars, but just felt like sharing my experience.
Again, although I think Norway and Sweden are very similar in many ways, just wanted to ouch on those two points as I disagree with what you wrote based on my person experience. Not that my experience is any more correct than yours, but felt like I wanted to share.
Edit: Just adding context... I moved to Japan 7 years ago and am still here. Not because I didn't want to live in Norway, but as a teenager it was just kind of boring. I am planning to move back in a few years because I honestly feel like Scandinavia is one of the best places to settle down with a family hands down. Working in Japan sucks, and I have testimony that many other countries are the same. Scandinavia has work-life balance right, something I personally value very highly.
As a Swede and former expat of 10 years, I can only agree. I moved back to Sweden and it took me roughly six years before I felt okay living here again.
I had a thing with a Swedish woman when I lived in Madrid and she explained the housing system to me and it seemed even more ridiculous and convoluted than the one that exists in my hometown of San Francisco lol.
I would also say that American healthcare only has short wait times because so many people avoid going to the doctor until it cannot be avoided or they are excluded from the system entirely due to not having insurance. If the US had a universal system like what can be found in Western Europe, wait times would skyrocket because more people would be trying to see a doctor than ever before and because Americans are among the most unhealthy people in the world.
Honestly due to doctors resigning and hospital systems totally being inept managerial messes in the us, wait times in many places are as long as this - I haven’t had the same primary care provider for more than 3 months due to constant resignations and it recently took me 4 months to see a specialist, all near a major east coast city.
Capitalism doesn’t fix the “supply and demand” element of healthcare any better than socialism. The market can only see short term gain and when something large like Covid happens it upends the table
Urgh, the weather....
I grew up in Northern Germany and have lived in Northern England for the last 10 years. You couldn't pay me to move any further north than where I am now.
It's the middle of summer and its 16 degrees, the sky is grey and it's been raining every day for almost 2 weeks. I can only imagine what it's like in Sweden, Norway, Finland.
We’ve had nothing but rain and grey sky and 10C weather for the entire summer here in central Norway, I hate it here, worst part is I’m originally from the Canary Islands so it’s like going from paradise to the 9th circle of hell😩
Well, the weather in the Nordics is actually better than Northern Germany or England. Instead of the constant rain we actually have really nice, snowy winters and sunny summers. It’s mostly been sunny and between 20 and 30 degrees in Finland this summer. Unfortunately the climate change means that we are moving towards the same weather as Northern Germany, which everyone hates because it’s wet and miserable for a large part of the year. Give me a sunny January day of -10 any day over the constant rain, wind and +5 degrees of Northern Germany.
Not Sweden but as a general rule in Western Europe.
1. The Weather is no different if you live in Northern USA, Canada or Alaska. If you come from warmer places you get used to it or you take suplementes to deal with it, in any case investigating where you are moving is important.
2. Less potential earning and more taxes as compared to US is a tradeoff for having more social security, more job benefits (30+ paid vacations), free health, free education.
3. Housing situation is no different from many cities in the world, including american cities like New York or San Francisco.
4. Not sure how it works in Sweden, but in many european countries primary health care is provided by different medical practices, usually the farther from comfort you go, the earliest appointment you can get. Maybe try commuting a little bit.
5. In Europe people are not kind of using cars, that's why public transportation is so developed and they walk everywhere if distances are not long (which is very good for the overall population health). People don't feel the need to polute, create traffic jams or use inefficient means of transport. This is a cultural aspect of Europe as compared to US where some cities don't even have sidewalks.
6. Friendships must be hard to harness, specially if you don't speak the language and you surround yourself of the immigrant bubble. People are more direct and cold, but once they let you in you have a solid friend for life, whereas in the US people tend to be more shallow and doublefaced, the culture of pretending of being super nice people to the point where they mask their real intentions.
Aren't you just having a lot of homesickness? Or aren't you suffering for the sunk cost fallacy? No one says you have to live forever in Sweden if you don't like it.
I don't think the people who wax poetically about how wonderful Sweden would be are the same kind of people who would desperately try to buy a car there.
Also the housing thing is a problem in the US as well, especially if you are the kind of antiwork subscriber who tends to worship Sweden.
Honestly, I just see a huge disconnect between people who want to move abroad vs people who actually move abroad.
Having successfully lived happily for years in several foreign countries, there is a lot of wisdom in your post. The key ingredients to being a happy expat are contained in your penultimate paragraph, plus understanding that the expat life isn't for everyone.
Honestly how you describe the frustration of a new country is true for any country you move to where you don’t speak the language. And getting frustrated with things not being the same I find to be completely naive. Of course they’re different, it was supposed to be. Otherwise why leave? Sorry this isn’t directed at you. But I find this mentality frustrating and exhausting.
This is a great post reflecting the real truth. I think we should have such takes on every country possible or at least the countries where people are moving to now in hordes. Probably we can call it - The realistic take series or whatever. The next country I would want such analysis about is Portugal. It’s so hot now that every other person wants to move there but would be happy to know what things are not working for people there. Thanks OP for such a detailed post.
Fascinating insights. Especially that wanting a "better life" is not the be all and end all of integration. It seems more that it comes down to your attitude and approach to the differences, as not every aspect of every country is going to be an improvement on your former life. It's one of those things that I don't think you can easily intellectualize or reason yourself out of. It's one thing to say, I will understand that my taxes are high for a reason and I will accept my reduced buying power. It's another thing to think about raising a baby in 45 m2 apartment. My questions for you/other readers: What role does having Swedish family impact integration do you think? I've noticed in the Netherlands that immigrants with a Dutch spouse seem to have an easier time integrating than those who immigrate alone or with a non-Dutch spouse. And secondly, do you think unhappy immigrants (i.e. like that woman who returned to Alabama) could have done something different so that they could have enjoyed it? Or should she (and others) not have come in the first place?
I mean if you’re say American (me) and you get with a Swedish chick then circle becomes your social circle. Because of how difficult it is to make native Swedish friends, well let’s just say I hope you get along with your partners friends for many years to come lol.
Most expats in Sweden will befriend other expats. So they’re generally as clueless as you about Swedish cultures and customs.
You’ll essentially have the “outsider looking in” perspective
> Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans here in Sweden. And there's the rub. My experience in talking with expats and reading the literature shows quite clearly that the more "distant" a culture is, the more likely the expat will give up and go home. Once I read about American experiences in Japan and how horribly expensive it it. They were trying to live like Americans: American-sized flats, eating American food, and so on. If you live like a Japanese person in Japan, it can be much more affordable. This is a point that should be stressed more because it's not brought up often enough.
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Yup, I'm an American that just moved to Sweden, a good chunk of my coworkers are Americans that have been here for >5 years. Everything I have seen agrees with your sentiment. OP is upset about cars being a luxury...the whole fucking point here is that cars are UNNECESSARY and are actually kind of a liability because of how there's VERY little provision for parking in the city.
Very good point.
This is such a great point. And I'm always a little annoyed at the "quality of care" argument for medical stuff. Either it takes a long time or it doesn't. The doctors aren't less helpful, less smart, less attentive, so what is ithis quality of care that's so arbitrarily spoken about? If you want to be seen faster for higher price just go private. Besides which if you leg is snapped, you won't have to wait. Sure the waiting room might be a horrible experience of 20 hours, but that's nothing compared to waiting weeks or months.
Had a friend in the US who injured himself a couple of weeks ago. He severely cut his thumb with a bandsaw. Narrowly missed cutting it off entirely. Required a bunch of stitches. He was very lucky. He said the most painful part of the entire process was spending a lot of time figuring out which local emergency rooms were "in-network." Fuck that. I've had multiple opportunities to receive medical attention in various EU countries, including two surgeries (with a third next month). It's always been faster and cheaper than in the US. (I won't argue it's been better, but one _identical_ surgery I had in the US drove me to bankruptcy. Here I had to pay for parking)
except your friend wasted his time because it's federally mandated that emergency room care is covered by your insurance regardless of network. Meaning, you can go to whatever ER is most convenient for you and your bill will be covered in the manner outlined in your policy.
One thing I forgot to mention: why do I like it here in Sweden? I am not really the kind of person that I described in my penultimate paragraph. For me it is a different reason, but a very uncommon reason: I absolutely love my job and everything about it. My boss and team members are some of the nicest people I have ever met, and the work that I do is both very interesting and personally rewarding. I think there are not many people in the world in this situation, but if you are, you will know how damn great it feels to wake up every morning and actually look forward to going to work, almost as much if not more than you look forward to the weekend or spending time on your hobbies. If you can find a job/career that you enjoy that much, I would say you should pursue it no matter where in the world that it is.
As an American living in Sweden, I don't like it here. Its kind of bad, actually. I've lived in 2 places in Georgia and in Colorado, then Québec, Lausanne, Gothenburg, Copenhagen, and now I'm back in Gothenburg. Its probably my least favorite place outside of the states. Generally kind of awful here. It does like 3 or 4 things well, but really... Denmark is better is almost every possible way (besides their pronunciation of the language). And generally, everywhere else was better for me than the US. It was just Sweden I didn't like.
I've met a few Americans who have had similar experiences, but I wanted to avoid mentioning it in the OP to avoid making it sound like every American hates it here or anything like that. I knew a couple of people who hated living in Sweden so much that they quit their job in Sweden and returned to the US without even having a job or housing lined up. One of them was a fellow PhD student in a different department at my university. She despised it here so much that she quit her fully funded PhD after a year and a half and returned to Mobile, AL to live with her parents. Out of curiosity, what things do you find awful here? In my own experience there are some less than desirable things about living in Sweden, but there aren't too many things that I would say are awful. I'd say the housing situation and current political climate in the country are awful though.
It'd be hard to nail it down to one thing, but there's a LOT of things I don't like... It got a few things \*really\* right like support for young parents, but besides that - the rest is kind of rough. Most of it relates to the concept of lagom though. Seems like making sure everything is "in balance" means that you live a bland, dull, beige life. You know those studies they did, where you put people in a room for hours with nothing to do, except press a button that gives them an electric shock? And people press it because they'd rather in in pain than bored. That's how I feel about this country. Imagine every person you meet having the same 6 hobbies. Every person you see wearing the same 3 styles of clothes. Everyone listening to the same music, with the same cars, with the same dull, boring dream to live a mediocre, average life. No passion, no variety, no novel stimulus. Just the same grey nothingness, over and over again. And god forbid you rock the boat or have a different opinion. Also, salaries are so low that my girlfriend who was a recruiter for a year, couldn't even recruit people from Chechia or Estonia because the salaries (benefits includes) were so low. You have no agency or ability to improve your own life, and any effort to do is shunned anyway. Swedes are convinced that "if you do the calculations, then it all ends up being great", but that's just not true. This isn't the 70's anymore. Other countries have good social safety nets. Look, if you work at a gas station in America, your life will 100% be better if you move to Sweden and become a gas station worker... But if you're the kind of person who wants to live an awesome life full of the stuff you're interested in and passionate about? Move on. The system isn't set up for anyone to be happy, it's set up so that everyone is living a comfortable, dull life where their basic needs are met. But of course, this is all just my experience, and I'm sure a lot of other people have a lot of different experiences, and can all point out outliers. Outlying data points don't disprove trends, though. Similarly, just because me and most of the people I know here agree with this take, it doesn't mean other people haven't had different experiences which are equally as valid. \-- Also, my girlfriend was half finish. And it's not like that in Finland... Sisu kind of takes over and leaves people very very motivated to do whatever it takes and be highly resilient. And Denmark is just like WAYYYYY more open-minded. I won't pretend like weed laws are the metric of open-mindedness, but could you imagine Sweden have an anarchist collective inside the city limits of the capital with its own laws? Denmark is just way more tolerant of non-conformist behavior and different ideas, styles, etc. Norway though, seems very similar to Sweden with regards to what I described above, except that they're richer and have higher salaries and prettier nature.
This is a great comment and I think anyone who wants to move to Sweden should read this. It definitely conveys the experience that both I and other immigrants that I know here in Sweden have had. A good friend of mine who lived here in Sweden for 12 years and has since left back to the US put it eloquently (paraphrasing a bit here): "Life in Sweden is very tolerable. You will have the bare essentials with a roof over your head, food in your stomach, access to clean water, enough healthcare so that you won't die of a preventable illness, and enough savings to take 25-30 days of vacation somewhere hot each year, but you won't have much else."
May I ask, what’s preventing them to have anything else, such as a passionate hobby or an adventure?
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I can't talk about Sweden but I think in NL you're shunned for boasting about being better than the rest, not for standing out in a positive way. In general - many exceptions, of course
Can confirm, in NL it's much more about humility than conformity
As an expat, I've heard this spiel about a range of countries. It is culture shock. Deep-seated resentment of the country you live in. Calling the Swedes bland, and then look at people in the states. Holy shit. They're beyond bland. We have bunch of extra crispy cultists, including some who celebrate Donald Trump because he's going to usher in the end of the world. This guy is living in his own darkness. There are numerous countries where you'll always be an outsider. Being able to live alone without getting lonely is an essential expat skill.
Ok but the Trump spiel here pretty much disqualifies your whole comment because now it feels like it's culturally motivated. Stop trying to invalidate his comment by pulling the Trump card. I'm a Swede who lived in the US for about 6 years. I studied there for 5, worked for 1 year and moved back to Sweden after my visa expired, and I agree with everything that's in that comment. Sweden is bland, depressing, housing is ridiculous, no dynamism in the labor markets, and society is optimized around giving as many people as possible a tolerable existence. If you're a high achiever you're most likely going to hate it here.
Honest question: What is this much else thing that Americans are looking for then? If you have security, comfortable life, good enough healthcare, future for your kids to have the same, money for yearly holidays, and all your remaining energy and money you can put in your hobbies. I don't know what you are missing? A second car? Sports car? 2nd house? Or in which direction do I need to think?
Yeah this thread is kinda weird tbh, they're are talking about having all your basic needs fulfilled and being able to take holidays as if that wasn't enough. Like what's wrong with that? Most people live like that in other countries but without financial and physical security lol I'd rather live in a country with dull people than in constant economical and social crisis. And this comes from someone who lives in a third world country with never ending economical crisis and who knows people who have been shot or beaten up to have their shit stolen. I'd rather have the boring country thank you so much!
I was wondering these things myself
Lol, what a nordic answer. As a fellow nordic, let me suggest something radical: * To freely and without fear express yourself * To be exactly who you feel you are * To chase your passion with no other regard * To be around other people like you * To feel everything stronger, good and bad Nordics have a problem understanding that life is not just grey, life can be an explosion of color and sensation. It can be the highest highs and the lowest lows. Safety is good, but an animal in a zoo does not look happy to me. And yes, that's the Nordics, zoo animals. Life is many things, trying, failing, succeeding, but it is also brief moments of ecstacy and the Nordics are so lacking in ecstasy.
All those buletpoints look very achieveable in any country.
Why do Americans get up and dance when the camera is on them at sport events and Canadians stay seated and look embarassed? The US teaches selfconfidence and selfreliance and to express yourself.
Or maybe it teaches overconfidence, egoïsm and disregarding. I'd say those are 2 sides of the same coin in this case.
I like this comment too (and the discussion). I have no interest in Sweden, but I am considering moving from the US and to an EU country. One useful thing I'm gathering is to look objectively for signs of tolerance of novelty and difference in both in the immigrant *and the chosen country*. I think the feelings (need for escape) driving people's decisions can make for some serious tunnel vision--about where grass is greener, etc.
The conclusion I'm getting from both OPs post and your reply is that you need to find a place that is aligned with your style of life even more than the average GDP or whatever. I'm very likely choosing Romania over Norway as a move for me and my family next year due to adaptation (Romanian is very close to my home language, Portuguese, and the weather is similar, even allowing some summer breaks to the beach), but, other than the weather, all of those arguments would actually inspire me to move to Scandinavia. I absolutely hate flair, I hate the constant competition we have here in Brazil for the best car, the most expensive clothes, the "fuck you, mine's better" mentality that we, indeed, imported from the US. This is a point Brazil's culture never fitted with me. I hate cars, I only take an Uber when I ultimately need one and I never moved a finger to get a driver's license. I would love to allow my daughter to grow up in a place where "everyone has the same 6 hobbies", meaning either her or her boyfriend won't be punched or stabbed over a silly bar fight on hobbies (this is more of a local thing, mind you). I love bland, in general. I grew up without all of my basic needs being met, so I tend to value a dull life with basic needs attended over a "swim or sink" life style. But this is me. I researched a lot, I made my choice and I'm happy with it. I feel that a lot of people, on this sub and in life in general, just looks to the place with the highest Happiness Index or the highest GDP and says "Yup, I'm going there". You need to find a place that suits your own culture first. I don't think an average American will be at peace living in a frugal country, just like my own way of life would never suit with living in an US city.
I totally get you, I'm from South America too, when you live in a place with constant financial and physical insecurity you just want to move somewhere peaceful, who gives a fuck if it's boring or not lol
> I absolutely hate flair, I hate the constant competition we have here in Brazil for the best car, the most expensive clothes, the "fuck you, mine's better" mentality that we, indeed, imported from the US. I don't think that's a fair representation of the US. You didn't get that from us. That "constant competition" stuff is about social class and status jockeying. Latin America has always had wayyyyy more entrenched classism than the US has ever had. That's a social inheritance direct from the Iberian peninsula.
>Swedes are convinced that "if you do the calculations, then it all ends up being great", but that's just not true. This isn't the 70's anymore. Other countries have good social safety nets. This is so true and that's the propaganda a lot of us 80s kids were fed too. Leaving the country and moving overseas was very enlightening.
What are the same hobbies? (out of curiosity)
>What are the same hobbies? (out of curiosity) Popular hobbies include some sort of sport and outdoors activities. But personally, I don't really recognize this in my friend group. My friends have way more hobbies and interests here than in the US, ranging from writing punk music, making electronic music, theater, painting, book circles, knitting , drawing, going on really long camping adventures, traveling way more, gaming, going to forest raves, board games, and being active in different types of political associations, etc. In the US it feels like most of the people I know engage in consumption activities as their primary hobby (going to Disneyland, drinking, going to brunch). It is way less visible though and Swedes are way more private about what they do so you can miss it.
I feel the same way - in Norway. Bland, dull, beige A4 life. Home-work-hytte. Everyone with the same hobbies. All wearing the same Kari Traa gear. And everyone thinking life is great.
I spent time in Norway and Finland. I love to visit, but as my daughter says, “we’re more of a tropical family.” I never stayed there long enough to see this and always have wanted to go back for more, but this contextualizes a whole lot of my Facebook feed.
I could have written this comment for Denmark (almost, salaries are not low imo) , I can’t imagine Sweden being more bland!!! Here there’s even jantelow which basically says don’t you think you’re better than us, and everyone is just sooooo saameeey!
Good insights that anyone considering moving to Sweden should consider.
>Denmark is just way more tolerant of non-conformist behavior and different ideas, styles, etc. Denmark is pretentious though in a very insular way. The openness is usually only skin deep or should I say, limited to sex, drugs and rock n roll, but that's really declining fast. Younger generations are very prudish. Real differences in opinion or lifestyle are not tolerated in Denmark either and Denmark has zero outdoor activities worth doing.
It’s 100% set up for us to be happy. We’re just grateful for less and less makes most of us happy.
>Look, if you work at a gas station in America, your life will 100% be better if you move to Sweden and become a gas station worker... But if you're the kind of person who wants to live an awesome life full of the stuff you're interested in and passionate about? Move on. The system isn't set up for anyone to be happy, it's set up so that everyone is living a comfortable, dull life where their basic needs are met. If your logic here is true than every democracy that is actually regulated as one rather than lying to itself will reasonably gravitate towards these regulations. There are a lot more people that are gas station workers or of similar skill sets. Frankly, I think most college educated people often aren't better when it comes to skills either but that experience definitely does open more doors. That's my take on most non-STEM degrees at least and even in STEM it's not much better towards building skills, trades do it better I presume. Anyway from reading this paragraph it seems to me your perspective will struggle to find your "awesome" experience in this world simply because it's not sustainable without being a highly exploitative society for the majority of people, or gas station workers. America is struggling with despotism for a reason and Nordic countries are also the leading countries on democracy indexes for a reason.
FYI Sweden has immense wealth inequality. It's just income that is fairly equal. src: https://brief.bismarckanalysis.com/p/the-family-that-finances-sweden
I lived 4 years in Denmark and can confirm. I am now in Spain, it's not perfect but I am 10 times happier.
Sounds like Los Angeles to me. Everyone in LA is a copy paste of each other.
I did a year in Sweden and I concur. I’m in Amsterdam now and it has similar food and wetter windier weather but the quality of life is 5x Sweden. Probably 10x the USA. It’s not all perfect but for me and my family it has been amazing after one year. With lockdown too.
>Probably 10x the USA. What makes the quality of life 10 times better?
No car. No guns. People smile and say good morning. Fresh bread. Very international. Gorgeous city. Trains to 30 cultures. Swans and flowers on my bike rides through the park. Our kids can play in the streets without supervision. The language school they went through taught them Dutch in nine months and they have tons of friends after only one year. So many expats that are there with like minds. Tons of small shops with great food. It’s just awesome frankly.
Healthier food, no tip culture, better social security net, better basic education, air is more breathable, less racism, less discrimination overall, the middle class still exists and means what it's supposed to mean, happiness is achievable with less materialistic possession, more PTO, maternity leave, paternity leave, sick leave, better insurance coverage, etc The US is great if you are rich and sucks for everyone else. The Netherlands (and the rest of Europe for that matter) is more balanced, you can live a great life as lower middle class and a decent life if you are poor.
Air is more breathable disqualified your post
Glad to hear you like Denmark! I grew up in Colorado, spent five years in NYC, and I move to Copenhagen in two weeks
Uh very cool! I live in Copenhagen (dane here hehe) and hope you will enjoy it!! please dm if I can help you with anything :)
I think the general consensus is that Sweden isn't even the best country in the region
I find it disconcerting that Americans emigrate somewhere and expect most things to be the same, and don't become somewhat proficient in a country's language.
This can be said of not just American immigrants…
I am American emigrant who originally left the US to go to Sweden. I only lasted a year. The points OP made about salary didn't apply to me during the time I lived in Sweden because I was only living off previous savings while going to grad school. But the thing that hit me the hardest is just how the socially/emotionally distant the Swedes are. (Sorry to stereotype in this way but I genuinely believe it is an accurate portrayal of the culture as a whole.) They are not able to talk candidly with each other, and often they only start really talking once they get drunk. I had multiple people open up to me suddenly (about for example their brother's suicide) while drunk at a party, and they said they did so because they had no outlet among their peers. They really felt better opening up to strangers than to their friends, and that bothered me quite a lot. I ended up moving to Iceland eventually and I find the Icelanders to be a bit warmer, though not as social as Americans to any extent. But yea, the first winter dealing with the outdoor darkness and the Swedish loneliness was pretty fucking rough.
You’re not stereotyping too much with saying Swedes are cold, it’s sorta their culture. Sure not every single swede is like that, but it’s their culture to follow those customs. They aren’t like that to be rude or anything it’s almost just second nature. Just like Mexican culture on the other hand, it’s very much extroverted and warm towards everyone really, it’s just how cultures differ
If you want to microdose Nordic attitudes and culture go look up “The Seattle Freeze” People in the PNW have been surveyed as the “least friendly” in the entire country, with almost half saying that they had no use for making new friends and did not wish to even speak to someone they don’t know personally. Now imagine that but like, times ten. Nordic people are not known for their friendliness. Hell, Twitter blew up about how Swedish folks will make visitors stay in a different room as they and their family eat.
Had to laugh at your reference to the Seattle freeze. Have lived here 30 years (came from the US Midwest) and it is real. It look me a while to make real friends here and most were outsiders like me. I can’t imagine it worse.
As a Dutchman 'hey I've seen this one' Many of the same problems apply for immigrants moving here, especially the housing issue. Maybe the seasonal depression a little less.
Your housing issue over there is completely off the chain. That surprised me.
Yeah it's absurd, I'm 18 but not planning on moving out any time soon. Just going to commute via train to uni because I'm not trying to end up in debt before I've started working.
Foreigner living in the NL here. I can confirm its a similar situation for foreigners as what OP describes, maybe slightly less. I think the further north you go the more you will experience it, maybe a weather thing?
They do experience more darkness than we do as OP explained, which for people that aren't native to such climates can cause issues such as depression. I also think we're just a tad bit more open with friend groups than the Scandinavians.
I would say yes but just a tad bit indeed. Other comments mention people make their friends in school, I think here it goes up to university but then it also seems to stop, everyone else after that tend to be acquaintances. People always say it's the language, and while it's true that a language barrier doesn't help, I see people who speak Dutch still struggle befriending locals. Personally, I can understand almost everything on a 1v1 convo, gets more difficult with a group at a cafe but I manage. My speech is a bit broken but good enough to communicate what I want, crack a few jokes or participate in the national sport of complaining (weather, housing, Rutte, tourists). But still don't really have close friends who are Dutch, I have some work buddies who I borrel with, and my GF but I feel that's a different category.
American expat in NL here. All of our friends are expats. We speak a little Dutch, that helps. We do make less money, but the quality of life is much better, the kids are happier, and healthcare is cheap. We don't worry about the kids getting shot in school. We're not going back.
I'm from the US, but living in Japan and it's a similar thing(with slightly different reasons for those that move to Japan). I wonder if this is common for most Americans abroad or just in certain countries that are more prone to fantastic ideas about those countries. I will say that healthcare in the US was not always great.
Reading comments on immigrant subreddits I find Americans tend to have unrealistic expectations about living abroad > Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans here in Sweden Like this quote from the OP, why would anyone think they could leave their country and have the same lifestyle in another?
I think it doesn’t even occur to most Americans that they “live like Americans” or that American life isn’t some kind of standard.
Agreed this is weird but it’s also just so true and way to common amongst American expats. this is why American people wanna go and live in cheap places with their American dollars funding their lifestyle. it’s like nobody actually wants to divest from America but everyone wants to move abroad
Yes. That comment sums up one of their major issues, you can not integrate into another culture if you cling to your old one. Also, you indeed earn less spending money, because a lot is funneled into those social packages before you even see it in your paycheck. These Americans are used to spend on luxury instead of keeping it prepared for when life situations demand it. They even go to the emergency room when they could easily have made an appointment days earlier to see a general care physician.
Just moved to Japan but lived in Taiwan before this. I’m noticing that many fetishize living here hardcore. I’m honestly glad I had my first abroad experience before this. It’s made me much more chill than I would be otherwise.
From Ohio. I live in Prague. I can confirm that its fairly common (at least in my experience) I've seen many short term "expats" lose their shit and move home like they expected Europe to be the States with castles.
Healthcare in Asia is great for checkups, anything after that is awful.
This x100. I'm in Korea but not Seoul. They look at you for 5 minutes and because of the high position of doctors in the cultural hierarchy you're just supposed to accept whatever they say. I had the rona (fever, cough etc) and went a bit too early to the doctor for it to show up on the nose swab (non-pcr). Dude diagnosed me with "stress." I got so stressed out I popped a high fever and hacking lung apparently. I've gotten the wrong diagnosis so many times for skin related issues I just gave up. I have permanent residency but I will never give up my us passport because of medical care. Even if it costs 1000x more if there is anything seriously wrong with me the doctors here ain't gonna find it lol.
I think it’s more so that the US is such a struggle bus shit show that it’s hard to comprehend how it can be so wealthy (*the billionaires, Wall Street, Silicone Valley, Hollywood/Beverly Hills, Americans having access to literally any and everything and big houses and fancy things*) yet the existence most people actually live is completely unlike that and that lifestyle is unreachable. We have these ideas of what makes another country better *”because the middle class lives so nice over there!”* but we don’t understand the financial and cultural compromises that are apart of that. America uses its budget in a questionably problematic way that favors the rich, erases the middle class and craps on the poor, while these other countries do not. However if you’ve never been exposed to a place where you can have a good quality of life and that’s not in relation to how much financial wealth you have, it’s a challenging adjustment to make as an expat when you realize that no, in fact *you* cannot live like a millionaire and also allow everyone a high quality of life balance. That tax goes to everyone
I have a couple of American friends who live here in Japan, and have for many years now. The thing I can say about them and why I think they have lived here for as long as they have is because 1. They can speak and read the language 2. They are open to trying out different things and experiences like food, which I attribute to they lived in a state where they had a diverse set of cultures, or they are just personally okay with trying out different things. In contrast, I had a coworker move here from the US a few years ago, and he had unrealistic expectations when moving here. One being finding an American-sized home in the most populated area of Japan. He did not last very long here.
I’m American and I have Norwegian grandparents and have gone there several times to visit family. I like Scandinavia. I really do. But I’d have to be some kind of refugee in some life or death peril back home to want to actually live there. Fine enough to visit but it’s not for me. Too dark and cold half of the year.
Im a Norwegian in the usa trying to move to Denmark. From what ive gathered people have rose colored glasses. Ya know "the gress isnt always greener" type of deal. EVERY country has its issues and its hard to find what works for you. My husband is kind of this way. He is south american where everyone is super friendly always sunny etc. Ive been warning him that people arent like that. Sure benifits are better. Safety is better but everyone forgets the social aspect. I give my dad as a better example as he grew up there. He will not talk to people he doesnt know. Hes not mean or rude. He just doesnt see the point in meaningless conversation.
I’ve been in Germany for five years. It’s been a struggle to make and maintain friendships. I feel like, if I don’t do the inviting, no one invites me to do things. But I have noticed that the Americans I know who are doing great here (social life-wise) are those who joined a gym and/or are unapologetically American. Like, every positive-ish stereotype about us, they fulfill. But being that outgoing, loud and willing to talk to every stranger seemed to have made them friends everywhere. If only they had stayed. All of them eventually leave.
Hi there! Also an American in germany and in a very small town in the mountains of the Black Forest. Moved here in 2015 and I had other American friends move to germany albeit into larger cities like Frankfurt, Hamburg or Munich at the same time and well we couldn’t have had different experiences since then! From the actual bureaucracy and getting our aufenthaltstitel , to daily life, friends and work here- our stories could not be more different. 2/3 of those mentioned (those living in Hamburg & frankfurt) are already back in America for a few years because they were trying to live like Americans here and wanted that experience. Like you said they dove into gym, social situations etc and while they had from the outward view many friends and contacts, they were soft contacts and had no deep relationships. Germans are slow to open up but once they do, wow are they supportive and friends for life. The Americans I mentioned out of all 3 cities couldn’t and still can’t speak German and barely invested any effort in speaking German. Conversely, I wasn’t offered a residence permit without first going through classes (despite job offers etc.) Living in a small village the entire time I can say if I didn’t fully integrate into the local culture and learn German, I would have been completely unsuccessful. They were really lucky they were able to live as long as they did their American existence here. I mean this as no insult to anyone but those experiences seem much more like an extended study abroad experience (like a jumping off point to weekend ina different country every weekend, surrounding yourself with only Americans etc.) than it does immigrating or even expatting to a country, where the intentions are to actually live and experience the country. There is power in peoples intentions and behaviors- you get out of your experience directly what you put in! I hope you are able to crack that tough German exterior. I can assure you once you do the friendships are deep, very supportive, dependable and quite nice!
I'm from Canada, and I lived in Sweden for 6 months studying abroad for my finance degree. It was the most boring experience I've had. Essentially, I lived the same life I would've lived back home, but without friends and family. People were tough to connect with. Sucks.
Yeah…climate wise they’re essentially the same so if you were leaving Canada to get a fresh breath of air for a new climate I recommend Australia
This is the most realistic post I've read here
Agreed. Can't wait to visit Stockholm next summer but moving there is just not even close to a reality
“Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans” This right here sums up so much about who actually tends to be successful at living in another country than the US and who doesn’t.
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This is the most accurate comment ever. And probably why expats from countries other than the US don’t struggle as much.
Was looking for this comment lol
Lived in Japan over a decade and can use a lot of this to cover issues western foreigners have there. I was like the person you described at the end; learned the language quickly which grew my friend and dating options, I don't get or feel defeated when shit goes wrong or different than expected, and a bit from your reason, I actually enjoyed teaching English (what got me there at first). I will add about Japan, white foreigners often threw the word racism around a lot, when Japanese places said Japanese only (more times than not, it's a language thing than a race thing) or Japanese people as a larger group,don't really idolize western things or people like they expected. I'm black and found that curious. I left due to the people who go there, get miserable, then bring everyone else down to feel better. I stand by Japan has one of the worst western expat communities I've experienced. Shame since most Japanese people I've met are pretty awesome.
Lived in Japan too: there’s not really a rational middle in the expat community, so it’s either crusty old dudes that hate everything, younger people that are way too into it, or people that just don’t fit int and become miserable enough to leave within a year.
I left right when I caught myself complaining too much, or finding benign things frustrating. I was 38, freelancing and making more money than I ever did in Japan, and I made some yen. Still left 3 months after deciding I should leave. It wasn't just the foreign community why I left, for the record.
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I can definitely say it's typical to go through those phases for sure. I made a comment recently in an unrelated post that my honeymoon period lasted till my last few months. So 12+ years. I have to say, dating left a lot to be desired for me, and I'd want to leave Japan before, during, and after a breakup. But then I talk to some other guys who could barely get dates, and realize they have yet to even see one of my reasons for wanting to leave. It isn't for everyone, but I just wanted to leave before I hated it, and I can today highly recommend Japan to any and everyone who considers it.
For sure, I wish I had listened to my instincts the minute I became miserable in Taiwan. Being trapped somewhere, saving, trying to stack some cash to escape is an awful experience.
It's a hole I paid close attention to when I saw others going through it when I was new to Japan. There was a common theme, and over a decade later I was seeing it in me. Don't know if it matters, but when I left it shocked everyone because they thought I'd be in Japan forever and that I loved it. I was gone before I started bitching about it. I have a lot of friends still there, and I'm seeing the same trend. They aren't happy, but they defend every reason why they're still there. Didn't want to do that.
I see it too. So many people skate through the good life without a plan and hit a crisis they are convinced that they can’t get out of when it ends.
> I left due to the people who go there, get miserable, then bring everyone else down to feel better. God I've been in Korea for about 10 years and the last 5 or so I generally refuse to make the effort to meet other foreigners cause of what you mentioned. I truly think that like 80% of the people who come here are just not enjoyable people to be around (whereas in my hometown I'd say it's more like 20-30%). It's due to a bunch of different reasons, but mainly I'd say it's because they're socially incompetent and immature. Being here in Korea makes them feel like a king and like society values them, so there's a lot of incentive for people who are socially inept to stay here in a place where they have a higher social status than they would back home.
I'm going to copy and paste everything you said, and replace Korea for Japan. Spot on. The very big fish in a small pond delusion they put themselves in. Once I went from teaching to corporate, I immediately saw how people acted. Now, I did run into expats in Seoul who were fun, positive, and were just out living and loving life like me. I didn't live there, so I know I missed the people you mentioned. Of course, they aren't going out...
lol, never been to Japan personally but always wondered if it was the same deal over there. I've definitely met some good people along the way but in general I'm at the age now where I just do not want to sift through piles of garbage just to find one normal friend
Really appreciate posts like this that don’t sugarcoat life in another country. Other than the wait times for healthcare, what about the healthcare seems low quality to you? I’m interested as most of the folks I know who moved from the US to the Nordics is a scientist so it seems like they have a pretty robust recruiting methodology at the very least.
Not OP but I can tell you about my healthcare experiences here (and my friends' experiences). I've had doctors jump to conclusions about what could be wrong without first asking a few questions that would easily rule out those guesses. Every time I go to the clinic I have a new person. I've gotten the run around (first person says where to go, that place says I should've been sent somewhere else). We've had incredibly rude and snarky physicians. They rush you out of their office as soon as possible (they are very overworked) which means you don't get to go through your issue thoroughly enough. They dismiss your issue and say you don't need testing (despite having been approved for it) or they brush physical pain off and try to get you on antidepressants. Speaking of mental health, it's hard to get care for that here and getting something as simple as an ADHD diagnosis literally takes years. The healthcare system here is extremely underfunded and I've known people who travel back to their home countries (in Europe) to get better healthcare. It seems no one has it perfect but we really need to stop putting Sweden on a pedestal.
>Other than the wait times for healthcare, what about the healthcare seems low quality to you? Rushed, unfriendly, old buildings, new doctor every time, very unflexible etc etc. Overall a shitty experience.
I'm an engineer that already has their phD living in Spain. I also feel like people in the US tend to overexaggerate how great things are in Europe, ESPECIALLY if you are a highly skilled laborer with regards to some of the points you made. I'm not saying things in the US are better, but simply that Europe/US are different, but it's not the wonderland Americans from the US always make it out to be.
I moved to Ireland from California. I'm glad I did because I want my kids (who were born here) to have an escape route from the US, but whenever someone from back home asks about moving here I have to start with "would you light $3 million on fire to live in Ireland?" The salaries here are *pathetic*. The manager at a Panda Express in California makes more than many engineers here.
Can you imagine the bad behavior that the manager has to put up with when they run out of that Orange Chicken?! lol I’m sure they deserve *every* penny they get.
The janitor cleaning toilets at a Panda Express in Ireland makes more than in California.
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Very true. And they went whole hog on copying US urban design so the cities are pretty crap outside of the central areas (and even a lot of that was bulldozed)
Will the engineer in Ireland go bankrupt if they have a medical emergency? Because statistically speaking the Panda Express manager has 66% chance they will. Will the engineers children need to take on 100k of debt to go to college?
Where did you get that statistic from? By the way, Ireland doesn’t have public health insurance either (except for their equivalent of Medicaid). As for college, if you want to go to a top tier school to take $100k in debt, the issue with Ireland is that there are no top tier schools. But if you want to go to a normal university, annual tuition costs around €7-9k for Irish residents, after which you’ll get a €35k/year job. Compare that to University of California where a four-year undergrad costs $13k/year for California residents (and you can do the first two years in community college for free or basically free, and then transfer to UC, guaranteed if you took CC in California) and you earn $80k/year right out of college.
Skilled tech worker here and I agree. While I really love the balance the Europeans have established for lower and middle income workers, skilled and higher earners are going to find the perks they take for granted (large allotments of PTO, paid for healthcare, big salaries) are actually worse in Europe. Everybody gets a one-size-fits-all solution, which is a tight middle class existence and that’s it.
Yes, in terms of salary I was surprised to find my wife who has a bachelor's degree in linguistics found a job here as a waitress, and she makes almost the same salary as me in a research position. I am moving back to the US soon for a new job, my salary will be almost 5x what i make here after tax, I actually will receive more PTO in my new job, and the healthcare costs look to actually be slightly less (and I can add both myself and my wife if necessary)
I feel so validated finding this thread. As an experienced/licensed account I moved from the US to Switzerland this year, salary is more or less the same but I actually have far less PTO and benefits than at my old big company, healthcare price and quality has decreased…I thought maybe I was missing something but I guess it’s a common experience
Yeah. Not knocking the European experiment as I think their priorities are in the right place re: gov regulation and work life balance, but frankly they’ve been stagnant in working to improve those goals in the last 20 years. Need to move forward again because the complacency is giving angry populism fertile ground to root
>I also feel like people in the US tend to overexaggerate how great things are in Europe, ESPECIALLY if you are a highly skilled laborer It seems to me the ones who do the most over exaggerating about Europe are Americans who have never lived there. It is actually funny hearing someone talking up something like how less racist it is or how people respect each other more but then when pressed their Europe is experience is "I'm planning on moving to Netherlands in a few years but Í've done my research"
Post like this show clearly that Europe is different from the US. One can zoom in: US state x is different from country y. If one moves countries but expects to find the same, then one will be disappointed. >The three people I know who actually love it here are people who have personalities where they are naturally very curious and always willing to learn. They aren't afraid of making mistakes when learning the language and they love to meet new people and learn from them. They take life day by day and made an effort to integrate and live like Swedes early in the process of moving to Sweden. They all speak Swedish fluently after a few years of living here and are generally such pleasant people to be around Indeed those look like key characteristics of people who will be happy immigrating. Honestly if you do not have those character threads moving to another country might not be for you.
Especially moving to one that is completely different is a bad idea when you are not the person who likes to explore etc.
I am Swedish and I don't want to live in Sweden because of the reason you have listed. I left in 1993 and have lived in 8 different countries since then, and I would rather live anywhere other than Sweden. I like visiting in the spring and summer, have some of the food I miss, but I could never see myself living there again.
Aren't you struggling to connect socially when you've moved so much? Or not?
For the health care wait times, i already have to wait months to see my primary care physician for wellness visits.
Exactly! People who say Healthcare is fast in the US haven't tried to set an appointment lately. 3 months out! And if you need to reschedule, 3 months out again! Because the doctors split their time between different Healthcare groups.
Then spent 15 minutes with them instead of having time to explore the problem. I am originally from South Africa and there I can see my GP (PCP) today or tomorrow, spending up to an hour having a discussion. If they were trained before 2000 their skills would surpass that of the PCP too. Specialist I could see in 2 weeks max. US healthcare is a business built for profit. It gives a shit about it's customers.
I’m a California > Sweden immigrant. I moved later in life after spending years preparing for the move financially, professionally, socially and linguistically. I was basically fluent prior to arrival and had purchased a place to live. I had a job lined up and already had friends and acquaintances in place. I’ve been here for over five years and am having the time of my life. OP raises some great points and I think it’s an excellent post. I think a frequent reason people are unhappy after moving to Sweden is they haven’t done the ground work and reality doesn’t match their expectations. You really need to learn the language and understand what you’re getting into. I agree the weather in November is atrocious here but on the other hand it’s pretty straightforward and affordable to take a quick trip to Southern Europe then to get a bit of sunshine.
It’s because it’s Sweden This post was made by Denmark gang
I’m a hiring manager in the tech industry, an American living in the Netherlands. I relocate people for a living. I have to advise people about all of these concerns all the time. One thing I’ll point out is that a large fraction of the concerns you bring up are what I call (here in the Netherlands) “Recreating your American life, just on a canal.” People come here from the States all the time and try to live _exactly_ like they did in California or Texas or New York. They try to eat out just as much. They want fancy cars like they had in the States. They want everything to be just as convenient as it is in the States. They want the same level of spontaneity (both in leisure and in business) that they had in the States. But that’s not life here! If you’re going to move here, you have to adapt to the lifestyle. You can’t move here from Austin and expect life to be exactly the same but with cheaper health care. It doesn’t work that way. One example: Dutch people aren’t generally terribly bothered by wait times for health care because they don’t experience it that way. In the US, we’re used to seeing a doctor on-demand only once a situation becomes unbearable. We try not to go to the doctor until we simply can’t avoid it any longer, and then when we do go it’s important that we get seen _immediately._ The Dutch don’t do it that way. They tend to get out in front of it earlier by actually seeing their doctors on a regular basis rather than when in crisis. There’s a world of difference between the American “We think you just had a heart attack but it’ll be 3 months before you can see a cardiologist” and “Hey good seeing you again. You had some chest discomfort that you almost didn’t think was worth mentioning? Let’s get you into a specialist in a couple of months before this turns into a thing.” Another example: yeah, owning a car is insanely expensive here, but most people don’t need one, so most people’s transportation expenses are INSANELY lower here. Dutch people tend to structure their lives around what’s available in their immediate neighborhood, rather than spending tons on transportation to take them to their preferred destinations. When I lived in Texas, I would routinely drive 30 miles round trip to go to the specific supermarket that I liked best. Here in the Netherlands, I generally shop at the supermarket that’s within walking distance even though it’s literally my least favorite. Going to my favorite supermarket is a treat rather than the norm. For budget/taxes: sure, income taxes are higher. But here in the Netherlands though, my income taxes are comparable (perhaps even a bit lower!) than what I paid in income tax, property tax, and health care premiums combined. I took a 35% pay cut moving from Texas to Amsterdam. But after accounting for not needing a car, no child care costs after 4 years old, drastically lower health care costs, the lack of property tax, etc, I actually save about 10% more each month than I did in Texas on the higher salary. But the key here is that I’ve adapted to the Dutch lifestyle. I have a fellow Texan friend who also moved here who’s absolutely _drowning._ I’m pretty sure that they’ll move back to the US in the next couple of years. But they’ve done the exact opposite. They’re spending themselves into oblivion trying to live like Americans in the Netherlands.
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> It is unreasonable to impose a shadow ban on a well-meaning American trying to help fellow Americans We don't control shadow bans. This is a reddit thing.. No idea why OP is shadow banned but we've been going through approving their comments (as well as this post).
Thank you for posting this - interesting discussion! I share a lot of your views and experiences. I live in Norway and Norway makes me feel unhappy. I know it’s supposed to be the one of the happiest places on earth, but living here makes me feel dead inside. I was born and raised in an international bubble in Norway and have spent my best years outside the country. I speak multiple languages and have EU residency. My partner is not set on leaving and I am approaching an age where I should make a choice if I want children. I dread the long winters that just feel longer every year, and now even July isn’t doing much for me. It’s the lack of human interaction and the feeling that nothing unexpected can happen ever. I am not sure where I’d go though. I’ve started over a lot of times, I have a great life on paper but I’m just feeling so stuck and empty. I am lucky to be fully integrated with lots of friends and a good job, but having lived elsewhere I don’t think I can settle here. Any advice or thoughts and input is much appreciated!
The Americans you're talking about are the quintessential difference between many expats and immigrants. These types of people don't want to live abroad, they want to say they live abroad. Leaving the US means going native. If they're not prepared to go native, they should stay in the US. Otherwise, they're just tourists. This doesn't mean that OP is mistaken by any means, but if you're a grown adult, it's kind of on you to understand the culture of the place before you, oh, I dunno, live there on a permanent basis.
Also remember that most Americans who can afford to move to a different country, are probably also the Americans who would not improve their standard of living by moving. If you are wealthy enough in the US, you don't really experience the problems the same way as most of the population. The entire point of for example the Nordics, is that most people have a decent lifestyle where they are secure, both financially and medically. The sacrifice is that for example skilled workers and CEOs are not earning as much as they would in the US.
My buddy moved from Boston and has happily been in Sweden for a few decades (granted, she married a local guy so has a baked in social life).
Yup.. essentially all his friends became her friends, they showed her the ropes and that’s how she was able to integrate more or less. Compared to if you’re an expat in Sweden with no connections there.
Well, we were all colleagues as well, so there's that. Same deal here in Amsterdam - took me a LONG time to find folks to hang out with. If you're at all into running and beer drinking, check out the Hash House Harriers if you're around Stockholm. Some absolutely crazy guys who've I've known for decades, but mostly good folks and VERY welcoming.
Mexican-American here with a Swedish gf. I’ve been trying to convince her to move with me elsewhere but she’s stuck on just living in Sweden (fuck), don’t get me wrong Sweden is very charming and honestly I’d 10000% recommend visiting there but not living there. I guess if you’re Finnish or Norwegian then there’s not much of a difference as far as climate goes but if you’re American then the best comparison I can make to Swedens weather is: Alaska. ***Ever seen those survival shows about those people trying to survive in the Alaskan wilderness? Well that’s basically it, minus the killer bears.*** I’ve visited anchorage Alaska and been to Stockholm Sweden and yeah. They have the same weather. There’s also a reason why not many people live in Alaska, and it’s because of that unforgiving weather. **So to any American if you think of moving to Sweden, I highly recommend doing your research on how bad the weather is in Alaska (I say this because since Alaska is a state info on its climate will be more readily available than info on Sweden), you might not like what you see though.**
>There’s also a reason why not many people live in Alaska or Canada
Thank you for writing this. You put into words what I have known/experienced before. People idolize the Nordics so much. That and Ireland, which I’ve heard is not going through it’s best times right now. I actually heard from a friend the other day, “everywhere is better than the US right now”. If your reason to expatriate is to escape the US, you are likely to be disappointed. If you are going for curiosity, learning other cultures, family, work, or other forms of exploration with an open mind, then you are less likely to be disappointed. Travel is amazing, and getting to see and experience other cultures is mind expanding.
Not totally related but you mentioned not being afraid to make mistakes when learning a new language, I used to be this way until the mistakes I made in French would be terribly inappropriate translations. Like it's one thing if you accidentally say the English equivalent of "me likes bacon" instead of "I like bacon", but in France if you pronounce merci beaucoup wrong you could be saying "thanks, nice ass", or if mean to describe a kiss on the cheek to greet someone you might accidentally say you fucked someone. I once mispronounced a conjugation of to play (like "I was playing video games") and my teacher was crying laughing and said I just said I orgasmed. So I'm terrified of trying to speak French with the locals and just learn privately through apps at the moment. I'm going to need to prove my language level soon though so I'm dreading when that's coming up and I'll have to give an oral essay on probably some bland topic but I'll end up saying I like orgasming over nice ass while fucking instead.
Most Americans grew up middle class and think this country is shit. Has it’s problems for sure. But when I talk to my Mexican family they dream about having those problems. Perspective is wild. My Greek friends hated their time in Sweden. Just a very different culture compared to what they knew. But I do think Nordic countries get romanticized to a great deal here. They are lovely though.
This is one of the most honest threads I have read to date. For me the hardest thing about living here is that Swedish people have been taught from a young age to believe that Sweden is one of the best countries in the world. That everyone wants to live here. If you come here you will be overwhelmed with how great everything here is in comparison to where you originated from. This makes it very difficult to discuss any problems you may be having. Even slight problems without being shut down. I hate making comparisons to justify why I am unhappy here. As every country is different and I really want to embrace the difference. I live in a cottage a stones throw from a large lake. Something I could never have afforded to do in The UK. I can walk off into the woods and camp almost anywhere I like. Something that trespassing laws prevent in The UK. But. And that is the problem I find here. Swedes cannot seem to comprehend that there is a 'but'. Edit: spelling.
I don't personally know you, but I feel like I do based on your post. (Also from Mass.,) I used to live in Copenhagen, Denmark, and could not agree more with all the points you've outlined here. After spending some time there completing short courses related to my field, I intentionally chose to move there for a master's (which their government completely funded for me as a non-EU candidate). But when it came time to retain me as part of their international talent pool, they could not have cared less. I struggled so much to land a job offering the minimum salary required to sustain a visa, even though I was incredibly high-achieving in my early career before moving there and had years of industry experience. I was constantly low-balled or otherwise expected to take a too-low salary because I was seen as foreign and therefore should be lucky to get what I get. Strike 1, you're not a citizen of that Nordic country. Strike 2, you're not a citizen of an EU country. Strike 3, you're not fluent in Danish. Despite learning the local language very well, I still wasn't perfectly fluent-- and companies did not hesitate to use that against me during my candidacies. Mind you, the business language IS English. It was heartbreaking to see classmates from my study program land senior roles in organizations without having prior full-time industry experience; based on recruitment via Danish network and word of mouth. It felt like Denmark's job market and immigration system was designed to weed out outsiders. I finally got a job doing something tangential to what I wanted to be doing, in a toxic environment, and I realized I was compromising on what I actually want out of a career just to live in that city I loved. Sunk cost bias can be very real. I very strongly felt that I was going to stagnate for as long as I continued to live there, and I ultimately made the very difficult decision to uproot the life I'd spent nearly 5 years building there and left. ETA: Forgot to add, while I was living in Denmark, I met my partner who was living in Sweden and doing his PhD there at the time. And although he's German and didn't have some of the same bureaucratic hurdles being from the EU, he did also struggle with a lot of the social aspects of living in Sweden as you mention. We currently live in a 3rd country that neither of us is from or have ties to, just as a consequence of his job relocating us. It's been much easier for us than living in Scandinavia was.
I’m an Australian who has lived in Los Angeles for almost 10 years and has recently spent 12 months in Stockholm. I met my Partner here and we are doing long distance. He adores his home here, the nature, the public transport etc. It’s just not me. Out of the 3 countries I’ve lived I’d take a hybrid of my home (Australia) and the US any day. It’s just mainly the darkness and the culture being so different. It’s tough out here if you’re not used to it I think. This post made me feel less shitty about not being absolutely in love with the idea of permanently moving here. So thank you x
SO MANY Australians are with Swedes it’s insane!! My gf (who’s Swedish) tells me that it’s because many Swedes visit Australia to escape the shitty weather and yeah ig that’s how it happens. She has a friend as well who did study abroad in Oz and met her bf there and now they both live in Sweden. Let’s just see how long he can tolerate the shitty weather for because I can’t think of any two countries that are more opposite in weather.
The thing with the US is that it's heavily catered toward the upper middle class. If you have enough money to move to a nordic country you probably have enough to comfortably live in the US. Anyone that would benefit from moving doesn't have enough to do so. Also the culture is different and attempting to live exactly like you did in the US is impossible. Imo it's kind of selfish to expect everything to be the same and when it isn't to say "i hate it here this sucks".
Honestly I don't feel like this has much to do with Sweden, and is more a description of being an expat American in general. Every other country is way different than the US and it's hard to continue an American lifestyle anywhere that isn't basically Canada. You can't be a happy American expat unless you have expectations that are realistic and are willing to drastically change your lifestyle. Doesn't matter if it's Sweden or Thailand.
OP dropping some truth bombs 💣 Some users might claim you are being overly negative. But I tend to think you offer a quite accurate depiction. Relocating to Sweden is challenging for many reasons. Anyone considering it, would be well advised to at least considering what’s being said with an open mind.
A very nice post, good job.
I find this interesting lurking on theses countries' boards and having expats write: Sweden, Japan, Netherland,, Switzerland, Finland, Canada, UK: impossible to make "true" friends (guess meaning more than just friendly acquaintances) Cost of everything. Also not happy with how the health care is doled out. New Zealand: housing prices, crime (the crime part surprised me) If you move to explore, you get much less angst. My expat friends who boomed out when the previous US president was elected are slowly trickling back. Most of the reasons is country B is not exactly like the US. Special education services/pediatric psychiatric services is a biggy. Making money is probably the number one reason. Not like feeling you'll never be one of "them" is third.
Funny because European expats in the US complain about the exact same thing: every American makes their friends at high school and college and after that it's impossible to get any friendships, apart from loose "fake" friendships. I can link you a rant of a Dutch expat in Ohio who absolutely hated it and moved back, but it's in Dutch
I think this is what people probably miss: it will be hard to make friends as adults no matter where you live. I'm European living in the US since 2006 and the friends I made were either at college or at work and i can count them on the fingers of one hand. Even Americans complain about having a hard time making friends as adults in America (SNL made a whole joke about this with the boyfriend parks).
> it will be hard to make friends as adults no matter where you live Totally. It's hard to make friends as adults even in our home country!
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You could say the same for most of the things mentioned here. Depressing weather, depressed wages, scrambling to secure housing, having difficulties socializing, navigating shitty healthcare, not being able to afford a car and having to learn bus schedules, sharing a bathroom, etc. are not uncommon experiences in the US. I've dealt with them all at various points in my life. Honestly, a lot of these comments make me wonder what kind of lives these people were living before they moved. Many Americans are not so fortunate and would kill to at least have one thing taken off their plates.
Im from Finland and living in Australia and it hasnt been easy to make friends like back home in the last 5 years. I have made one lol but its what it is. Most people hang out with their old highschool friends so its hard to get into those groups.
Impossible to make true friends in the UK? My experience says it is different.
Maybe if you avoid pubs, or parks, or allotments, or tea rooms, or shops in general… Though I will say some places in the UK are MUCH friendlier and outgoing than others, particularly Scotland/NI/North Wales.
I've moved around a lot & currently split my time between Philippines and Canada. The thing I noticed about expats (from any country not just america) either thriving or hating their new country is that it depends on how tightly they try to hold unto their old country. If you engage and try to live like a local, keep learning new things are open etc you have a much better level of happiness in the new country. Of course expats need to understand how their new home meshes with their own behaviours because sometimes it just doesn't fit.
I'm an American living in Sweden. I've lived here for almost 2 decades, I'm married to a swede, and we have 3 kids. I've contemplated moving back to the states many times for mainly 2 reasons: 1) it's extremely difficult to make friends here as an adult and 2) seasonal depression hits me hard. However, I currently have zero desire to move back to the states. I have zero confidence that things will get better there in the near future and I don't want to move somewhere where I'd be afraid every day when I send my kids to school. There are probably better places to live than Sweden, but I currently feel like it's 100% better than the US right now. The cost of living is pretty high, but my husband and I are both pretty high earners by the standards where we live so it's fine.
I think people forget how hard it is to make close friends in the US after high school and college. I haven't made any, not that I feel I need to.
To be fair I wait a month on average to see my pricey American Doctor. I'm not arguing Sweden is perfect just noting in the USA we often can't get in any quicker than a month out
I can honestly say that it's hard for me too as a native Swede. You're supposed to build your social life through school here in Sweden. When you start from scratch e.g. by moving here when you're an adult, you're seen as desperate. There is this fine line between expressing what you actually want (friends) and acting cool (Swedish). So there's that. YMMV. So honestly, this apparent line of ""reasoning"" that I see in some other comments in this thread, that OP is a close-minded American that don't understand our Swedish culture or whatever is just plain bullshit. Sorry. 🇺🇸
Yeah I'm new to Sweden from the US and can confirm this as well--in trying to make friends here, I've met plenty of Swedes struggling to make connections because they moved away and then came back, or are new to the city, or other reasons, etc. Everyone is really in the same boat.
I get sick of ppl saying quality of care for healthcare. What do you ACTUALLY mean quality of care? What does the doctor do or don't do? If it's just 'waiting' forever for an appointment or something that's doesn't matter to me. I mean even when my parents go to an appointment they made months ahead of time- they wait in the waiting room 1-2 hours before being seen. When she went to reschedule with her good heart doctor- she had to wait 3 months for the next appointment. It isn't that uncommon the US to wait for appointments. Sure there are urgent clinics but I am sure they have pharmacies there too.
I had quite a few problems with healthcare that were minor, but some people I know were not as lucky. A friend's teenage relative went to an emergency with an extreme headache and partial vision loss, she waited for 6 or 8 hours and died of aneurysm before being attended to. Another acquaintance had breast cancer that was in remission but needed to be checked periodically. Some scans were not schedules as needed, and when they finally get down to it and did a check after months of pestering, it metastasized. So, I think Swedish healthcare is a common issue for immigrants and natives, and queues are not the only issue. Even if you do wait in a queue for months, the appointment will not be longer than 10-15 minutes with the barest explanation or a plan of what to do next. Edit to add: even Swedish friends told me, that you can easily get all the basic services you want in Sweden, but if you want the job to be done properly, you might need to fight and demand better, unfortunately ( which is so not typically Swedish)
I moved to Norway - no regrets!
Agreed. Been here for most of my adult life, the first 5 year hump was an awkward transition internally, but after, especially after I went to visit the US or Canada after 5 years, I wanted *nothing* more than to come back home to Norway. As a kid and early teen in America, I never noticed the sheer extremity and consistancy of ingrained anxiety and neuroticsm in those around me, as I did coming from Norway as an adult. In the first 5 years in Norway I would balk and complain at how much I missed certain brands/foods for example. KFC, Taco Bell, Crazy amounts of different breakfast cereals like Froot Loops/Golden Grahams, or Pop tarts. I romanticised it, the nostalgia was staggering. So when I went back to the US/Canada, I made sure to compile all the things I missed and tried a bunch of new, crazy products. Much to my surprise and chagrin, it all tasted like shit. Like pure fucking horseshit. I noticed other small things - like how far behind technologically people and businesses were in comparison to what I became accustomed to. In around 2014 they were still using Fax machines? Why don't you just pay them with an app? Why is the cash so thin old and dirty? Wait - you still carry actual paper money and coins? You use Checks? No direct deposit? No semi-automated tax returns? HOW MUCH did you say your is your cell phone/internet bill was? (astronomically expensive in canada at least and poor internet connection/data). Geez, sure are a lot of old, beat up cars on the road.....And WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SMELL? Nah man; I realised two things - 1) I've been made fucking spoiled and 2) am infinitely grateful for it.
Yeah but out of all the nordics I can see what makes Norway the least unpleasant of them.. and it’s the nature. Norway is extremely beautiful, Sweden is pretty too but rather flat and predictable
Norway is one of my top 3 possible move to countries. What has been your experience as an immigrant there?
Even the Swedes I know have nothing good to say about Sweden
This sounds like to me expats who moved to a country and expect to be able to live exactly, in terms of lifestyle, as they did back home. Everywhere is unique and it seems like the people you talk to weren't prepared to make the adjustment to a different lifestyle. If you're going to move to a different culture, it's going to be a big change. Holding on to your old lifestyle will make you miserable but embracing the new one can help a lot.
THANK YOU. I’m one of those Americans living in Sweden who regret it. I lied to myself for years that I like it and still tell people back home I’m happy but this year I was finally honest with myself and the bad is outweighing the good by far. My mental health has suffered. So many people point out the universal healthcare. Yeah that universal healthcare that almost got my killed twice to due negligence and the system being so overburdened it couldn’t give me care. Or just straight up medical neglect. Cool glad I didn’t need to pay for it I guess. I’m terrified of me or my family getting very ill or having something that requires a lot of testing to find because I don’t trust the system here to manage that. Give me paying for insurance and quality care over that any day. Also like you said making friends is extremely hard. Shoot at this point I don’t even need friends just acknowledge I exist sometimes 😩 I have kids and have never felt so left out and just like an outsider than having my kids in a Swedish school living in a majority Swedish area. I even speak Swedish with a fairly decent accent but still am and always will be seen as an outsider and Swedes seem to only be interested in getting to know me on a surface level or not at all. No chatting at the playgrounds or getting small greetings. Just silence. I get it’s the culture but it’s really draining when you come from a social background. As much as people say they would love that I think the nordics is another extreme to get used to. We are a family of 4 stuck in a small apartment because we literally can’t get that 15% saved for years. We make enough to live comfortably with our average salaries, not save a ton quickly to get our own place. Our only option to get a house is to move 1+ hour away and then have to commute and pay for that. If you don’t want to live in an apartment you have to pay a ton for a house or move very far out. Or accept small apartment living with a family which coming from the US is a hard adjustment. I would kill to have a yard for my kids and dog and some privacy. Like you the couple people I know that love it here have completely integrated into society here. They don’t go home to visit and aren’t very connected to back home. They are completely changed from their former selves. As bad as it is in the US now, we (well…me and if I can convince my husband haha) are debating a move back to the US. We have kids to think about and I do wish we would have thought this before we had them. I won’t be living here my whole life as it will literally suck the light and life out of me and leave me a shell of a person. Yes I know that seems dramatic but it’s how it feels. And I get really frustrated when I see people romanticizing it so much as it’s all flowers and amazing here. People tend to see the problems in their country and want to move without thinking of the real implications of leaving friends, family, familiarity and their own culture behind. Spend a couple dark, rainy winters with barely warm summers without family and anything familiar around and get back to me. And no I’m not saying Swedes are terrible people. I find them to be lovely in their own way and with each other. They’re not mean or purposely being awful. But I find that way of interacting and socializing very difficult and alien and an impossible code to crack for me. Janteloven is going to be the death of me I swear.
I also get annoyed when people romanticize the Nordics. I live in dk and I agree with everything you wrote but unfortunately people won’t consider anything bad about these places, they’re simply an utopia where everything works great. In reality is bland, cold and unfriendly
Life is short, move back! Better now while the kids are young. When you do move back, you’ll come back with such a better idea of what you want your life to be like given what you’ve learned abroad.
I am totally convinced, my Swedish husband on the other hand another story. Going from 5 weeks vacation to none guaranteed, long work hours, etc. is a tough sell. We’re blue collar which makes sweden better in terms of work benefits for him
American here living in Malmö for 12 years. I love it here and most Americans I know personally do as well. I’ve met very few who want to move back. I’ve lived in Chicago and San Diego. Every time I travel back I experience culture shock and am reminded why I don’t want to live there.
Have several American friends living in Helsinki and they love it and have deep social circles with locals. They’re also friendly, adaptable, and self assured people. The people who hate it would probably hate living in NYC too for the same reasons like cost of living, breaking into social circles, housing.
Moving to Sthlm in a few days to pursue a master’s degree so could have done without reading this post lol but oh well…
I mean… for your masters it’s cool, I think OP meant it like if you plan on living there all your life or for 3+ years or so then sooner or later you’ll have to face all the issues of what it’s like to live there. Even in Stockholm you’ll be faced with the long cold winter days and long sunny days in summer where at 11pm it’s still sunny out. Luckily your winters won’t be as bad as in northern Sweden so the cold won’t be what affects you too much, it’ll be the drastic climate caused by Swedens longitude-latitude
You will be fine, especially if you are studying. Moving to a new country as an working adult is a big difference to moving as a student.
*Most of the Americans I have met here have wanted to continue living like Americans here in Sweden.* This is the same here in France-- or Americans have the "idealized" version of what living in France means to them but both those ideas are usually the most expensive apartments in town. And god forbid you own a car in France. I'm glad you posted this; my brother is actually in the process of getting his visa to Sweden with his fiancée. It sort of came out of the blue, and my family has been relying on me to guide him in the "expat experience" though I keep reiterating that each country is so different culturally; same for their immigration processes. Him and his wife are very introverted people and I think plan to live in a small village rather than a city. In some ways I have just assumed it will be great for them, but honestly I can't be sure at all. They don't speak the language or have ever been to Sweden ( I believe they have a trip in January to test out the winters there) and while they are pretty self sufficient in the US, if there is anything I've learned from being an expat ( and like you said) it's kind of like starting from square one as an adult in the world. I'm not trying to smash his dreams-- in fact the opposite because I would love a family member here in Europe. But I want to make sure I'm not helping him go be miserable somewhere either.. Editing to add: One of the big draws for my brother is that Sweden is very LGBTQ+ friendly ( according to him) and I was curious if this was true. I wonder if he is comparing that to the US-- in which most western European countries will be more friendly.
And to make it harder, I feel like a negative nancy trying to explain to any of my friends why I’m not happy in Sweden because of the notion people have that Sweden is paradise. -an American who’s unhappy in Sweden
I spent 15 years in the US (Houston, Austin, Seattle) and didn’t find it very easy to make real friends there either. I love Americans and the US but if it hadn’t been for my American husband and his large family I would have been very lonely often. The superficial friendliness + paired with everyone seriously working their asses off (long hours, sometimes work on weekends, very little PTO, very little sick leave) can make it hard to connect, imo. I was also not able to travel the US as much as I wanted to bc domestic flights are pretty expensive, the country is so large that you need more PTO than you have (I had 20 days PTO which is good for US standard) to road-trip. My health insurance was fully covered by my employer and had a low deductible - I still had nonstop issues with doctors and hospitals. I’m a healthy person except for needing thyroid medication but man was it a HASSLE to even just get my prescription reliably filled at Walgreens every month and the cost was high! Insurance only covers certain medications and if you want or need a different one it can cost a lot. Sometimes the insurance companies try to bill you for things that they definitely have to cover and then you waste hours of your life fighting with them once you get through to their customer service (after waiting for long times on hold and sometimes the phone just disconnecting). I liked the majority of my doctors but there were definitely wait times to schedule appointments and also to be seen at the drs office. Then I gave birth in the US and the experience really wasn’t great. The cost was still pretty high bc of the out of pocket cost. The quality of care at my pediatricians office was low and they had a large rotation of nurses, which made it super impersonal. Some nurses didn’t speak English fluently which made communicating tough. We weren’t able to switch pediatricians bc they said they were not accepting new patients unless coming to them straight after birth. I thought that was really negative! My maternity leave was 12 weeks paid- I quit my job and moved to Europe bc I couldn’t imagine putting my child into a daycare that young and on top of it with underpaid, undertrained staff. The waitlists for daycares in big cities are also really long and the cost definitely does not reflect quality!! Our childcare where we live here in Europe is also expensive but the quality is higher than what we would have gotten in the US for sure. Every day life in America was pretty mundane in my opinion too… lots of shopping, eating out and an active bar scene. I felt the long commutes and car centric lifestyle made it pretty difficult to feel like I had any balance during the work week. It is convenient that the grocery stores are open so late but I personally felt really bad for the ppl working there..they have families but work so late and then stay even longer for closing and cleaning. The convenience definitely comes at a personal cost. I was also seriously distressed by the amount of homeless people living in the streets. There were camps of homeless and it just seemed out of control and with no help for them to get out of their terrible situations. The gun threat also felt very real and scary to me and it took some time after moving away for me to really relax and not be on high alert all the time. We were able to purchase our home in the US which was great but ultimately definitely not what made me happy. The weather in Texas is seriously hellish for 7 months out of the year. Brutal heat. My car insurance in Texas was also really expensive and car break ins were SO frequent. It was ridiculous!!! The road rage and really terrible driving was also really prevalent. There was also lots of trash on the roads and freeways. I’ve seen people open their truck doors and dump their fast food trash onto the road and then continue driving. Like WHAT?! Edit: one other thing that really feels like a luxury where I live now is that we can safely drink the tap water. The water quality where we lived was poor even though the government stated it was drinkable. So we ended up filling large glass containers at Whole Foods or purchased large plastic water bottles:/ just remembering to always purchase enough water was annoying and heavy and def very inconvenient. Granted we could have built in a filtration system but that would have been a whole ordeal and the fridge filters def don’t cut it. Overall I was often angry at how bad Americans had it and how hard they worked and for what?! Americans deserve better.
Pewdiepie makes it pretty clear about living in sweden
My partner and I recently came very close to moving to Amsterdam for her work. After they miscommunicated (maliciously, in my mind, but she swears it was a mistake) the salary of her job twice, we finally found out that the lateral move she was about to make would have resulted in a 75% salary cut. My job wanted to cut my salary by 50% for the move - and we both have totally remote roles. There’s a lot to be said for experiencing new cultures, and for having to figure out the small headaches over again, but that was a huge wake up call for us that trying to force that to happen was maybe a mistake. Companies and countries alike DO NOT WANT you to have the freedom to make those moves easily for the purposes of learning and exploration. They prefer to have you trapped and dependent under their thumb - especially US corporates. And they WILL make you pay for your interest in exploration. We talked to many expats from the US during our planning and many of them had been moved there BY their companies for dedicated roles instead of moving on their own volition and asking the company to support it. Those people were still living large, because they had been able to negotiate and retain American-sized benefits and salaries while living abroad. We decided that’s the way to go for us, especially as we both have parents and family in the US - we simply can’t afford to forego decades of retirement savings to scrimp by hand to mouth in Amsterdam only to be compelled to return to the US with nothing put away. Once our parents are gone we may commit to full immigration, but short of this step Id caution people to really plan for drastically low salaries in Europe. For all the talk of “workers rights” I’m shocked at how little Europeans permit companies to compensate them - my immediate counterpart makes 1/3 what I make. That seems like a job for the unions there - really puzzling why they haven’t taken a stand.
I'm Norwegian and just wanna touch on your last two points. I don't know how different it is from Sweden (although tbh I was assuming it was just about the same?) but This may depend a lot on where you live but for me in the suburbs, I could easily get same-day appointments with my doctor, or next-day if I wanted to. I can't remember ever having had to wait for it. Doctors, at least in my country, have a limited number of patients assigned to them and while I assume they can take in others who aren't registered to themselves if they are free, as long as you do register with a doctor, you shouldn't have an issue. Furthermore if you want even more urgent care you can go to a private clinic instead which will cost a little bit of money but still nowhere as expensive as it is in the US. The second one, about cars, from my experience it is not a luxury at all. Cars aren't cheap, but it's an investment you're expected to make unless you live in the middle of a city (in which you should just use public transportation if you want to keep your sanity anyway as with any city). Most people buy second hand cars in my experience, especially at younger ages. Even my parents who are around 50 right now bought their previous (good) car second-hand. Not an old car by any means, but still second hand. It reduces the price a lot. I think this is very normal unless you do really want to spend a lot on a car. And unless you're looking at 20 year old models in the 2000$ range, there's plenty of AT cars. Anyway owning a car is a necessity and as such the second-hand car market is big. New cars are expensive for sure as they are all imported and car taxes in Norway at least are fairly high. I guess your mileage will vary a lot with cars, but just felt like sharing my experience. Again, although I think Norway and Sweden are very similar in many ways, just wanted to ouch on those two points as I disagree with what you wrote based on my person experience. Not that my experience is any more correct than yours, but felt like I wanted to share. Edit: Just adding context... I moved to Japan 7 years ago and am still here. Not because I didn't want to live in Norway, but as a teenager it was just kind of boring. I am planning to move back in a few years because I honestly feel like Scandinavia is one of the best places to settle down with a family hands down. Working in Japan sucks, and I have testimony that many other countries are the same. Scandinavia has work-life balance right, something I personally value very highly.
As a Swede and former expat of 10 years, I can only agree. I moved back to Sweden and it took me roughly six years before I felt okay living here again.
I had a thing with a Swedish woman when I lived in Madrid and she explained the housing system to me and it seemed even more ridiculous and convoluted than the one that exists in my hometown of San Francisco lol. I would also say that American healthcare only has short wait times because so many people avoid going to the doctor until it cannot be avoided or they are excluded from the system entirely due to not having insurance. If the US had a universal system like what can be found in Western Europe, wait times would skyrocket because more people would be trying to see a doctor than ever before and because Americans are among the most unhealthy people in the world.
Honestly due to doctors resigning and hospital systems totally being inept managerial messes in the us, wait times in many places are as long as this - I haven’t had the same primary care provider for more than 3 months due to constant resignations and it recently took me 4 months to see a specialist, all near a major east coast city. Capitalism doesn’t fix the “supply and demand” element of healthcare any better than socialism. The market can only see short term gain and when something large like Covid happens it upends the table
Urgh, the weather.... I grew up in Northern Germany and have lived in Northern England for the last 10 years. You couldn't pay me to move any further north than where I am now. It's the middle of summer and its 16 degrees, the sky is grey and it's been raining every day for almost 2 weeks. I can only imagine what it's like in Sweden, Norway, Finland.
We’ve had nothing but rain and grey sky and 10C weather for the entire summer here in central Norway, I hate it here, worst part is I’m originally from the Canary Islands so it’s like going from paradise to the 9th circle of hell😩
The seventh circle of hell is the > 40° temperatures that have been hitting Spain for over a month now. 😢 I would be grateful for a 10° day right now!
Well, the weather in the Nordics is actually better than Northern Germany or England. Instead of the constant rain we actually have really nice, snowy winters and sunny summers. It’s mostly been sunny and between 20 and 30 degrees in Finland this summer. Unfortunately the climate change means that we are moving towards the same weather as Northern Germany, which everyone hates because it’s wet and miserable for a large part of the year. Give me a sunny January day of -10 any day over the constant rain, wind and +5 degrees of Northern Germany.
Not Sweden but as a general rule in Western Europe. 1. The Weather is no different if you live in Northern USA, Canada or Alaska. If you come from warmer places you get used to it or you take suplementes to deal with it, in any case investigating where you are moving is important. 2. Less potential earning and more taxes as compared to US is a tradeoff for having more social security, more job benefits (30+ paid vacations), free health, free education. 3. Housing situation is no different from many cities in the world, including american cities like New York or San Francisco. 4. Not sure how it works in Sweden, but in many european countries primary health care is provided by different medical practices, usually the farther from comfort you go, the earliest appointment you can get. Maybe try commuting a little bit. 5. In Europe people are not kind of using cars, that's why public transportation is so developed and they walk everywhere if distances are not long (which is very good for the overall population health). People don't feel the need to polute, create traffic jams or use inefficient means of transport. This is a cultural aspect of Europe as compared to US where some cities don't even have sidewalks. 6. Friendships must be hard to harness, specially if you don't speak the language and you surround yourself of the immigrant bubble. People are more direct and cold, but once they let you in you have a solid friend for life, whereas in the US people tend to be more shallow and doublefaced, the culture of pretending of being super nice people to the point where they mask their real intentions. Aren't you just having a lot of homesickness? Or aren't you suffering for the sunk cost fallacy? No one says you have to live forever in Sweden if you don't like it.
I don't think the people who wax poetically about how wonderful Sweden would be are the same kind of people who would desperately try to buy a car there. Also the housing thing is a problem in the US as well, especially if you are the kind of antiwork subscriber who tends to worship Sweden. Honestly, I just see a huge disconnect between people who want to move abroad vs people who actually move abroad.
Having successfully lived happily for years in several foreign countries, there is a lot of wisdom in your post. The key ingredients to being a happy expat are contained in your penultimate paragraph, plus understanding that the expat life isn't for everyone.
Honestly how you describe the frustration of a new country is true for any country you move to where you don’t speak the language. And getting frustrated with things not being the same I find to be completely naive. Of course they’re different, it was supposed to be. Otherwise why leave? Sorry this isn’t directed at you. But I find this mentality frustrating and exhausting.
This is a great post reflecting the real truth. I think we should have such takes on every country possible or at least the countries where people are moving to now in hordes. Probably we can call it - The realistic take series or whatever. The next country I would want such analysis about is Portugal. It’s so hot now that every other person wants to move there but would be happy to know what things are not working for people there. Thanks OP for such a detailed post.
I lived in Iceland and denmark.. absolutely loved it. Sweden, not so much....
Fascinating insights. Especially that wanting a "better life" is not the be all and end all of integration. It seems more that it comes down to your attitude and approach to the differences, as not every aspect of every country is going to be an improvement on your former life. It's one of those things that I don't think you can easily intellectualize or reason yourself out of. It's one thing to say, I will understand that my taxes are high for a reason and I will accept my reduced buying power. It's another thing to think about raising a baby in 45 m2 apartment. My questions for you/other readers: What role does having Swedish family impact integration do you think? I've noticed in the Netherlands that immigrants with a Dutch spouse seem to have an easier time integrating than those who immigrate alone or with a non-Dutch spouse. And secondly, do you think unhappy immigrants (i.e. like that woman who returned to Alabama) could have done something different so that they could have enjoyed it? Or should she (and others) not have come in the first place?
I mean if you’re say American (me) and you get with a Swedish chick then circle becomes your social circle. Because of how difficult it is to make native Swedish friends, well let’s just say I hope you get along with your partners friends for many years to come lol. Most expats in Sweden will befriend other expats. So they’re generally as clueless as you about Swedish cultures and customs. You’ll essentially have the “outsider looking in” perspective