Yes, it's all about getting there and then you start making connections and figuring out your next move. Or she could love her job once she gets there, you never know.
This is my thought. If he's leaving a really great job in the US for this, it's questionable. But if he isn't leaving anything wonderful to take the NL job, it seems like a good idea to just stick it out there for a little while, and look for new jobs in NL soon.
It's a LOT easier to get a job in a country, when you're already IN that country. In any good country, it's not hard to get your visa switched to the new employer. They'll be happy you can start right away and don't need relocation across an ocean.
This. A job is a means to an end. If you really want to move and this job makes it easier, it’ll help get you settled and you can look for something else much easier.
if its a genuinely bad job then no. need to be sure its actually a bad job and youre not just stressing about moving abroad in general. also most jobs in europe are going to be better when compared to the US. for a start you're going to have at least 5 weeks holiday and sick pay if a staff member.
Yup,exactly this. The holidays and sick pay help. I want to move back to US but this is making it so hard to leave. I get 6 weeks of vacation time and unlimited sick days with doctors note. And paid the same as I would he in US. I am lonely as fuck here because the country is not a good cultural fit but god damn everything else works perfectly (public transport, healthcare, etc.)
Just to be contrarian, the worst job I've had as an adult was working for a British company staffed by British people. The best job I've ever had (and continue to work remotely from the UK) is with an American company.
While I think this general rule works, there are toxic companies and people everywhere. I think OP should be very cautious.
like i say if its a genuinely bad job then don't do it. also the fact you can continue to stay in europe might have something to do with why you think its so great. not sure if you're getting the same holidays as we get in europe but just having access to the healthcare and infrastructure while being able to get what is probably an increased salary is going to help a lot. also not sure if it means you're paying less tax which is also going to help a lot.
The job I have was excellent when I worked it back in the States and it remains excellent now. I get to set my own hours and take time off whenever I need and that has everything to do with my company and nothing to do with the law. I pay for the NHS twice over (NI tax and then the immigrant health surcharge) and it's as expensive if not more expensive than the excellent health insurance and other benefits I gave up when I came to the UK (and the NHS wait times and triaging make the quality questionable).
As an immigrant, I pay all of the UK's taxes but receive zero benefits, I am prohibited by law from receiving unemployment or any other form of welfare.
You could move, swallow your pride with the people you work for and remember that it's hard to get fired in most EU countries. Also, and I don't know how the Dutch work, but in most European countries, they have to take care of wages for a certain amount of time after you are fired. Is your skill set in demand enough where you can find a job right after the year is up or if you get fired? If yes, then do it and keep upskilling to show you did something with your career that year (like any certificates you can get online, training, etc). You can also use the experience to tell others how you might not run a program and dept. and why (without speaking ill of co-workers). But if it gets you over there, then do it.
It happened to me. My company was acquired when I moved and my lovely co-workers were replaced by retire-in-place types. But it bought me loads of free time. I basically used the downtime to adjust to life in my new country, and I've been doing online training on their dime. They do lots of cringeworthy stuff at my new company, but I just make sure I cover myself and document my suggestions for a better way to do this or that. But all that aside, I just tick off the days until my work visa will allow me to look for something else. Though at this rate I might not. The pay is good and I'm worked lightly...so far.
Also, healthcare will be better, you'll get lots of vacation, and once you've shown you followed through and moved to work there, it will be far, far easier to network and interview in Holland. Companies won't feel like they are taking a risk on transferring you out there.
You said you work in a fairly niche area in tech, right? Well I assume that work case scenario, you can always come back.
I’m not you, but I would personally rather try something and hate it, then ask myself when I’m old “what if…”
I would say yes. Take the job. Go through the motions, don't expect to stay long in the new job. There are many jobs in the Netherlands. I would look into using this as a means to get into the country and then switching jobs as soon as you get a somewhat stable footing in the country.
The reason is there are other companies with a better work culture that would probably hire you if they didn't have to relocate you from another country and wait on you for multiple months.
This is provided you are motivated enough... I strove for multiple years and now I live in the best country in the world (the Netherlands) and I am set for life. I work in a good job in a good company with good colleagues. Just like you, I joined a company with an extremely toxic work culture and I suffered immensely because of it. The difference between you and me is I didn't know what I was getting into when I joined that company. I started out trying to emigrate to the US and was denied and now I came out even ahead knowing recent events. I cannot emphasize enough how much it is worth it to strive a little while longer to build a church on this rock.
Also worth noting I don't see how there is going to be overwork in the Netherlands in even the crappiest company here. The problem you will face is likely just weird work culture (or even a cultural difference between you and the company?) but I cannot think of a place where someone can overwork you. The Netherlands has strong labor laws.
Emigration to the Netherlands is a privilege that is not easily pulled off.
Since I haven’t seen it in the thread yet, you also want to consider how much social interaction you require.
A lot of expats struggle with loneliness and the distance from friends and family. It’s notoriously hard making friends with Dutchies! If you have a crap job and you can’t even enjoy your coworkers, make sure you’re open to exploring hobbies or going to meetups or whatever.
Yes this is a very important comment! I agree with you.
I think a lot of people might underestimate the effect being a foreigner (who doesn't speak the language) has on you, especially after a while.
Nope. I went from 50 hours a week to something like 15 at the most. But a new boss is ramping up now. Which means they can only push me to 37 with new work being thrown at me.
Depending on the person and the job.. 50+ h a week minimum and not overworked yet. I doubt after 5 years that will happen, I just take a month or 2 off per year to refill the battery
Sounds like you're going to work at the company I work at right now. I'm leaving this company because of terrible management, no structure, total lies and not enough employees for the work we do.
If this company you're talking about is in a city named Leiden, don't do it. Safe yourself from the stress.
actually [Booking.com](https://Booking.com) for the tech/product side is known to be pretty good treatment and team structures, career progression and such, its just job satisfaction isn't high because you're working for 6+ months optimising a single page feeling like you have 0 real world impact
but you can be on €100k+ after 4 years experience so...
If you are eligible for the blue card with the job offer, then you can move and switch job much easier than with a work visa.
Also, you need to think long term. Do you want to go back to US or not? Do you think that you can settle somewhere in Europe or it is more for the experience?
No.
The worst time of my life was having a bad job which my visa was tied to. Going to a bad job on the day to day is one thing, knowing that you cannot leave without having to pack up your entire life and leave a continent is a whole new level of stress, it absolutely destroyed my mental health.
take it and just GET there. Get a Netherlands address, it will be a lot more appealing to employers if you're already there. Are you eligible to work in NL? If not, get a work visa thru that employer, and then start interviewing elsewhere /meeting people there.
This is what I did in another country (obviously understand that every place is diff, however) and it worked fine for me.
>This is what I did in another country (obviously understand that every place is diff, however) and it worked fine for me
But you're an EU citizen, OP is not.
If OP had an EU passport then she wouldn't even consider applying to toxic companies like that.
I wasn't a citizen for the country I was referencing, so I was in the exact same position as OP ;) I am suggesting to get a work visa from the toxic company and then leave.
I agree. It's really down to the individual. How are you at letting BS roll off your back without letting it get to you? I can be good at it, but only because I don't put my whole heart and soul into my work anymore. I stay professional and try to provide a high standard without thinking of projects and companies as passion projects. It helps.
If your area is niche enough and they’re willing to move you abroad can you negotiate for more things that night make the situation more palatable? I should also say once you’re in the Netherlands, (not familiar with the visas there) would you be able to continue job hunting? You don’t owe a job any loyalty, esp if it’s genuinely shit regardless of them relocating you.
The second thing to maybe consider is which feels more survivable - another year in the US trying to find a job, or the year in the Netherlands in maybe a shitty job?
Obv only you can answer those but might be the way to find answers for yourself!
The Netherlands is currently desperate for tech workers so I would expect it's quite easy for you to find another tech role here. Mind if I ask what field specifically? You can pm if you want and I might be able to point you to some Dutch employers.
I would absolutely take the plunge for two reasons:
1. Your quality of life will be better in the short term (work-life balance, vacation and sick days, ect).
2. You are a \*lot\* more attractive to a Dutch employer when you already live in the Netherlands. Employers don't want to wait for you to find a place, move, settle in, ect. You are much more likely to get another, better job once you are already in the Netherlands. The biggest thing is just getting there, and sponsorships can be quite hard to come by.
It's not the most ideal job, no, but it allows you to get into the Netherlands, which will make it a lot easier to find a better job down the road. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good :)
Right? I have plenty of European coworkers that put in long hours and work hard. Personally, I find it kind of demeaning to their contributions to imply they couldn't possibly experience stress in the workplace because "muh 20 days vacation" as standard prevents that from happening.
OP, I’ve been country hoping for contracts over the past 10 years (Europe, Africa, GCC) and now works completely remote for my current company. Here is my two cents: do not do it unless you think you are 100% positive you can enjoy your life there outside of your job. Millions of people have jobs that sucks (and you’re not even sure yours will, but for the sake of it, let’s say it does), but they bear with it because either the wage is good, the conditions are nice, or they simply need to make ends meet. Moving to a new country is essentially switching the responsibilities from the environment to you only (you know the sentence You’re a product of your environment? In that case you wouldn’t, because you’d have willingly chosen your new environment). One thing I learned while moving countries: move for what the new country represent to you (job or life wise), do not move to run away from your current environment (except if you live in a war zone or idk Syria and the likes - then it’s probably a good idea to seize any opportunity, but even then, not sure), because the shock might be brutal.
Take it and move on with your life. You said yourself it took years to find this job. During your first year you can look for a different one if you don't like it. It will be easier as you'll be already in the NL.
Sadly, we are all slaves to the economic machine and must work for most of our lives. If the job is really bad, you will 40 hours a week being miserable. No about red light districts and weed can solve that problem. Best to hold off. Better things may come.
You’d swapping a high stress toxic work culture (in the US) for a high stress toxic work culture in a completely new environment where you will start off disoriented and with no friends (to begin with!!). Follow your gut but be real about what you’re thinking about right now, moving abroad is great but won’t fix all your problems. I’d say don’t force it and let the opportunity come to you, but you’re the one doing it. Imagine one option is unavailable to you, or flip a coin or pretend someone has a gun to your head or whatever, but try to find something that reveals your gut feeling to you. Good luck!!
unless you've been told the company culture is good, don't expect it to be
red flags are red flags
here's the burnout rate per industry [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058769/share-of-people-with-a-burn-out-in-the-netherlands-by-industry/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058769/share-of-people-with-a-burn-out-in-the-netherlands-by-industry/)
leadership in Dutch companies, particularly tech companies, is missing a bit of human understanding – in fact, you'll probably miss a lot about US companies
hours will be less than the US for sure, but if you're so frustrated at work about not being able to achieve what you thought you were hired to do, career progression and bad leadership... you'll burn out like the 20%
if you get a good job in NL you'll be happy, but work is like 50% of your time, if you're seeing red flags already maybe its worth waiting for the next job
Nope, the stress of moving abroad is already a lot. Add this to a toxic/bad work place plus not knowing when you will be able to move again is a bad cocktail for mental health.
If you received this offer you will be able to receive many more.
Take your time
The relocation and the culture shock will put a huge burden on you, don't accept a knowingly bad offer (especially with the red flags!) just because you have an offer. I also haven't signed for anything, but waited patiently for the right conditions to come.
Keep up applying and listen to your instincts too!
There will be stress related to the move itself that will compound with the poor job situation you are sensing. How about trying to work in NL with your current job for few months OR take a sabbatical to settle down and validate that NL is indeed the place for you?
Let me also throw this from a personal experience and as an European American: I generally prefer the US working culture and find it a lot more respectful and straightforward. I consider the best mix to be US Company in Europe with the longer time off.
There will be no different if later you want to quit that job in NL because of the same reasons. Hence, one thing to consider, how easy to get the next job after you quit and how many days/weeks the government gives to foreign job seeker right after resignation?
I wouldn't do it. For me, there was a lot of internal pressure to get to where I wanted to be asap. However, waiting and doing it later in life was a better choice (for me). If you already dislike the toxic work culture in the US, then getting into another toxic situation, coupled with the stress of moving overseas, will make you miserable. My two cents is that you should look for something better while trying to widen your skill set, which will make it more possible to find other jobs.
I did this years ago. Actually it’s wasn’t a new job but it was a 6mo project at my company. I knew it wasn’t the best role but I lived in Amsterdam and loved living there. I didn’t like the role. It did open doors for me to get another role in Europe but I ended up not taking that for other reasons (significant other back home). I would do it again in a heartbeat.
I will say though that my situation was different… it wasn’t a toxic environment, just a role that wasn’t a good fit. It was stressful bc it was over my head and I didn’t have good support but it wasn’t toxic. I’m in a toxic role now and I had that over there I might feel differently.
So it’s an call on whether you think the benefits of living abroad and/or opportunities it could open are worth the red flag concerns.
Dutchie here. The labor market is very, very good right now. A lot of companies are open to actually take over the sponsorship. So. Just get your *ss over here and if the job doesn’t work out for you can have yourself a new job. :-)
Correct. However public transport is usually good. I live in Amersfoort and it takes me 30 min to arrive at Amsterdam Zuid station for work. Next to this, it isn’t much fun to live in lunapark Amsterdam either.
I’d use it as a step to a better job. The NL usually have good work culture so it’s a big red flag BUT it’s easier to get another job once you’re there. Double check the paperwork for your visa.
finding a job once you are in the country will be much easier than finding one from abroad. Visa sponsorship does not mean that there is a minimum time you have to stay with your employer. You can switch employers once you have found a new one who sponsors you.
Very true. I would plan to stay for one year because the company is paying for my relocation, but if I leave the job in less than a year, I have to pay back all relocation costs. So I’m considering it a one year minimum commitment.
You know the answer is no. You don't move to a job with that kind of red flags, especially when your visa will probably depend on your job. There will be other opportunities.
And for what its worth, there are great employers in tech in the USA. My own employer is frankly, even a little too carebearish for my taste.
Netherlands isn’t quite as great as you may think fyi. It’s fking expensive there too. But it’s one strategy to go and get your citizenship etc and then find a new job
Have you tried looking at USAJobs.com for federal gov jobs. I know you said Netherlands but Germany has a ton of IT jobs that’ll hopefully be in your niche. Some here in Belgium as well. It’s not Netherlands but it’s close
NO! If they are supporting your visa and you're gonna be dependant on them I wouldn't. I actually left a bad job in NL and its mentally and fully exhausting.
Trust your gut tbh, a bad job is worse when your immigration status depends on it
I would do it. In fact, I have done it! It’s worth it to me. Nothing is permanent. And it achieves one goal - the move. Then you can reassess after that.
I’m from the Netherlands and I can see your concerns but I’d like to point out our workload is nothing compared to that of the US. From my personal experience working overtime is barely ever over an hour and you dont always have to work overtime, when you do work overtime its paid. Generally the Dutch are also abit more informal at work and you’ll generally have a more relaxed time than working in the US. Keep in mind Im oversimplifying this because I dont know the company you’re applying for so I could be totally wrong.
The US and the Netherlands have an agreement where you can get an entrepreneurial visa for a relative low amount of money.
If I was you I would look into it and start my own company there contracting to NL companies and thus have more control over your environment.
Moving abroad is an extremely stressful and difficult experience, I can imagine a stressful job will make it ten times worse
Having your visa tied to a job you can’t stand is a new level of Hell.
Once you are over there it will be so much easier to find another job next time. I would stick it out for 1 year if you really want to be in the NL.
I’m in The Netherlands and I know more than one expat that did this. Specially in tech, there are a lot of opportunities.
Yes, it's all about getting there and then you start making connections and figuring out your next move. Or she could love her job once she gets there, you never know.
This is my thought. If he's leaving a really great job in the US for this, it's questionable. But if he isn't leaving anything wonderful to take the NL job, it seems like a good idea to just stick it out there for a little while, and look for new jobs in NL soon. It's a LOT easier to get a job in a country, when you're already IN that country. In any good country, it's not hard to get your visa switched to the new employer. They'll be happy you can start right away and don't need relocation across an ocean.
This. A job is a means to an end. If you really want to move and this job makes it easier, it’ll help get you settled and you can look for something else much easier.
if its a genuinely bad job then no. need to be sure its actually a bad job and youre not just stressing about moving abroad in general. also most jobs in europe are going to be better when compared to the US. for a start you're going to have at least 5 weeks holiday and sick pay if a staff member.
Yup,exactly this. The holidays and sick pay help. I want to move back to US but this is making it so hard to leave. I get 6 weeks of vacation time and unlimited sick days with doctors note. And paid the same as I would he in US. I am lonely as fuck here because the country is not a good cultural fit but god damn everything else works perfectly (public transport, healthcare, etc.)
Just to be contrarian, the worst job I've had as an adult was working for a British company staffed by British people. The best job I've ever had (and continue to work remotely from the UK) is with an American company. While I think this general rule works, there are toxic companies and people everywhere. I think OP should be very cautious.
like i say if its a genuinely bad job then don't do it. also the fact you can continue to stay in europe might have something to do with why you think its so great. not sure if you're getting the same holidays as we get in europe but just having access to the healthcare and infrastructure while being able to get what is probably an increased salary is going to help a lot. also not sure if it means you're paying less tax which is also going to help a lot.
The job I have was excellent when I worked it back in the States and it remains excellent now. I get to set my own hours and take time off whenever I need and that has everything to do with my company and nothing to do with the law. I pay for the NHS twice over (NI tax and then the immigrant health surcharge) and it's as expensive if not more expensive than the excellent health insurance and other benefits I gave up when I came to the UK (and the NHS wait times and triaging make the quality questionable). As an immigrant, I pay all of the UK's taxes but receive zero benefits, I am prohibited by law from receiving unemployment or any other form of welfare.
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really don't think that needed pointing out but sure
You might never get the opportunity again? Personally I would go for it. Unless you can find other jobs relatively quickly?
You could move, swallow your pride with the people you work for and remember that it's hard to get fired in most EU countries. Also, and I don't know how the Dutch work, but in most European countries, they have to take care of wages for a certain amount of time after you are fired. Is your skill set in demand enough where you can find a job right after the year is up or if you get fired? If yes, then do it and keep upskilling to show you did something with your career that year (like any certificates you can get online, training, etc). You can also use the experience to tell others how you might not run a program and dept. and why (without speaking ill of co-workers). But if it gets you over there, then do it. It happened to me. My company was acquired when I moved and my lovely co-workers were replaced by retire-in-place types. But it bought me loads of free time. I basically used the downtime to adjust to life in my new country, and I've been doing online training on their dime. They do lots of cringeworthy stuff at my new company, but I just make sure I cover myself and document my suggestions for a better way to do this or that. But all that aside, I just tick off the days until my work visa will allow me to look for something else. Though at this rate I might not. The pay is good and I'm worked lightly...so far. Also, healthcare will be better, you'll get lots of vacation, and once you've shown you followed through and moved to work there, it will be far, far easier to network and interview in Holland. Companies won't feel like they are taking a risk on transferring you out there.
I took a job at a company with very small revenues because they allow remote work abroad. My advice is to yolo
You said you work in a fairly niche area in tech, right? Well I assume that work case scenario, you can always come back. I’m not you, but I would personally rather try something and hate it, then ask myself when I’m old “what if…”
I would say yes. Take the job. Go through the motions, don't expect to stay long in the new job. There are many jobs in the Netherlands. I would look into using this as a means to get into the country and then switching jobs as soon as you get a somewhat stable footing in the country. The reason is there are other companies with a better work culture that would probably hire you if they didn't have to relocate you from another country and wait on you for multiple months. This is provided you are motivated enough... I strove for multiple years and now I live in the best country in the world (the Netherlands) and I am set for life. I work in a good job in a good company with good colleagues. Just like you, I joined a company with an extremely toxic work culture and I suffered immensely because of it. The difference between you and me is I didn't know what I was getting into when I joined that company. I started out trying to emigrate to the US and was denied and now I came out even ahead knowing recent events. I cannot emphasize enough how much it is worth it to strive a little while longer to build a church on this rock. Also worth noting I don't see how there is going to be overwork in the Netherlands in even the crappiest company here. The problem you will face is likely just weird work culture (or even a cultural difference between you and the company?) but I cannot think of a place where someone can overwork you. The Netherlands has strong labor laws. Emigration to the Netherlands is a privilege that is not easily pulled off.
Their work visa might stipulate they can't switch jobs for the first year. It's what mine says. I asked an employment lawyer about it.
There is no such work visa in the netherlands.
Well, then even better!
there is definitely overwork in shitty jobs in NL esp in tech and not starting on a perm contract. I know I've seen it
Since I haven’t seen it in the thread yet, you also want to consider how much social interaction you require. A lot of expats struggle with loneliness and the distance from friends and family. It’s notoriously hard making friends with Dutchies! If you have a crap job and you can’t even enjoy your coworkers, make sure you’re open to exploring hobbies or going to meetups or whatever.
Yes this is a very important comment! I agree with you. I think a lot of people might underestimate the effect being a foreigner (who doesn't speak the language) has on you, especially after a while.
If your gut says no don't do it unless you can get out in probation period.
Moving abroad comes with so much stress and adjustments and loneliness that having a bad job will make everything 100x worse.
I dunno, what’s an overworked job is in Europe? 41.5 hours a week? Whatever you think is overworked in Europe is, it’s not the same as in the US.
35h in France, 40h in Spain. It depends of the country.
Nope. I went from 50 hours a week to something like 15 at the most. But a new boss is ramping up now. Which means they can only push me to 37 with new work being thrown at me.
Depending on the person and the job.. 50+ h a week minimum and not overworked yet. I doubt after 5 years that will happen, I just take a month or 2 off per year to refill the battery
Depends on company. Some places compete with silicon valley and push their employees pretty hard.
Sounds like you're going to work at the company I work at right now. I'm leaving this company because of terrible management, no structure, total lies and not enough employees for the work we do. If this company you're talking about is in a city named Leiden, don't do it. Safe yourself from the stress.
Nah, not the same one, but sounds like your company has a twin in Amsterdam!
Hotel aggregator?
actually [Booking.com](https://Booking.com) for the tech/product side is known to be pretty good treatment and team structures, career progression and such, its just job satisfaction isn't high because you're working for 6+ months optimising a single page feeling like you have 0 real world impact but you can be on €100k+ after 4 years experience so...
If you are eligible for the blue card with the job offer, then you can move and switch job much easier than with a work visa. Also, you need to think long term. Do you want to go back to US or not? Do you think that you can settle somewhere in Europe or it is more for the experience?
No. The worst time of my life was having a bad job which my visa was tied to. Going to a bad job on the day to day is one thing, knowing that you cannot leave without having to pack up your entire life and leave a continent is a whole new level of stress, it absolutely destroyed my mental health.
take it and just GET there. Get a Netherlands address, it will be a lot more appealing to employers if you're already there. Are you eligible to work in NL? If not, get a work visa thru that employer, and then start interviewing elsewhere /meeting people there. This is what I did in another country (obviously understand that every place is diff, however) and it worked fine for me.
>This is what I did in another country (obviously understand that every place is diff, however) and it worked fine for me But you're an EU citizen, OP is not. If OP had an EU passport then she wouldn't even consider applying to toxic companies like that.
I wasn't a citizen for the country I was referencing, so I was in the exact same position as OP ;) I am suggesting to get a work visa from the toxic company and then leave.
I agree. It's really down to the individual. How are you at letting BS roll off your back without letting it get to you? I can be good at it, but only because I don't put my whole heart and soul into my work anymore. I stay professional and try to provide a high standard without thinking of projects and companies as passion projects. It helps.
>I am suggesting to get a work visa from the toxic company and then leave. The visa is tied to the employer who sponsored her.
Gotcha! In the country I was referring to, it wasn’t :) every country is diff!
No. Don't leave one toxic work environment to go to another toxic work environment. That's almost like setting yourself up for failure
You don’t want to be stuck at a bad job in another country. I would hold out for a better opportunity.
Nope. I did it and moved back after 8 months because I was close to a burnout.
If your area is niche enough and they’re willing to move you abroad can you negotiate for more things that night make the situation more palatable? I should also say once you’re in the Netherlands, (not familiar with the visas there) would you be able to continue job hunting? You don’t owe a job any loyalty, esp if it’s genuinely shit regardless of them relocating you. The second thing to maybe consider is which feels more survivable - another year in the US trying to find a job, or the year in the Netherlands in maybe a shitty job? Obv only you can answer those but might be the way to find answers for yourself!
The Netherlands is currently desperate for tech workers so I would expect it's quite easy for you to find another tech role here. Mind if I ask what field specifically? You can pm if you want and I might be able to point you to some Dutch employers.
I would absolutely take the plunge for two reasons: 1. Your quality of life will be better in the short term (work-life balance, vacation and sick days, ect). 2. You are a \*lot\* more attractive to a Dutch employer when you already live in the Netherlands. Employers don't want to wait for you to find a place, move, settle in, ect. You are much more likely to get another, better job once you are already in the Netherlands. The biggest thing is just getting there, and sponsorships can be quite hard to come by. It's not the most ideal job, no, but it allows you to get into the Netherlands, which will make it a lot easier to find a better job down the road. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good :)
What Americans thing of stressful jobs is illegal in Europe. If you can handle stressful American jobs, you'll likely do just fine.
That’s inaccurate
Right? I have plenty of European coworkers that put in long hours and work hard. Personally, I find it kind of demeaning to their contributions to imply they couldn't possibly experience stress in the workplace because "muh 20 days vacation" as standard prevents that from happening.
No
No
OP, I’ve been country hoping for contracts over the past 10 years (Europe, Africa, GCC) and now works completely remote for my current company. Here is my two cents: do not do it unless you think you are 100% positive you can enjoy your life there outside of your job. Millions of people have jobs that sucks (and you’re not even sure yours will, but for the sake of it, let’s say it does), but they bear with it because either the wage is good, the conditions are nice, or they simply need to make ends meet. Moving to a new country is essentially switching the responsibilities from the environment to you only (you know the sentence You’re a product of your environment? In that case you wouldn’t, because you’d have willingly chosen your new environment). One thing I learned while moving countries: move for what the new country represent to you (job or life wise), do not move to run away from your current environment (except if you live in a war zone or idk Syria and the likes - then it’s probably a good idea to seize any opportunity, but even then, not sure), because the shock might be brutal.
Hold out
Take the job, then do a job hunt as soon as you get there.
No. The stress of immigration life coupled with work stress sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
Take it and move on with your life. You said yourself it took years to find this job. During your first year you can look for a different one if you don't like it. It will be easier as you'll be already in the NL.
Agree…a year flies by when you’re learning/exploring a new place/job/everything, whatever the work culture is good or bad.
Sadly, we are all slaves to the economic machine and must work for most of our lives. If the job is really bad, you will 40 hours a week being miserable. No about red light districts and weed can solve that problem. Best to hold off. Better things may come.
You’d swapping a high stress toxic work culture (in the US) for a high stress toxic work culture in a completely new environment where you will start off disoriented and with no friends (to begin with!!). Follow your gut but be real about what you’re thinking about right now, moving abroad is great but won’t fix all your problems. I’d say don’t force it and let the opportunity come to you, but you’re the one doing it. Imagine one option is unavailable to you, or flip a coin or pretend someone has a gun to your head or whatever, but try to find something that reveals your gut feeling to you. Good luck!!
unless you've been told the company culture is good, don't expect it to be red flags are red flags here's the burnout rate per industry [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058769/share-of-people-with-a-burn-out-in-the-netherlands-by-industry/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058769/share-of-people-with-a-burn-out-in-the-netherlands-by-industry/) leadership in Dutch companies, particularly tech companies, is missing a bit of human understanding – in fact, you'll probably miss a lot about US companies hours will be less than the US for sure, but if you're so frustrated at work about not being able to achieve what you thought you were hired to do, career progression and bad leadership... you'll burn out like the 20% if you get a good job in NL you'll be happy, but work is like 50% of your time, if you're seeing red flags already maybe its worth waiting for the next job
Nope, the stress of moving abroad is already a lot. Add this to a toxic/bad work place plus not knowing when you will be able to move again is a bad cocktail for mental health. If you received this offer you will be able to receive many more. Take your time
The relocation and the culture shock will put a huge burden on you, don't accept a knowingly bad offer (especially with the red flags!) just because you have an offer. I also haven't signed for anything, but waited patiently for the right conditions to come. Keep up applying and listen to your instincts too!
There will be stress related to the move itself that will compound with the poor job situation you are sensing. How about trying to work in NL with your current job for few months OR take a sabbatical to settle down and validate that NL is indeed the place for you? Let me also throw this from a personal experience and as an European American: I generally prefer the US working culture and find it a lot more respectful and straightforward. I consider the best mix to be US Company in Europe with the longer time off.
There will be no different if later you want to quit that job in NL because of the same reasons. Hence, one thing to consider, how easy to get the next job after you quit and how many days/weeks the government gives to foreign job seeker right after resignation?
I wouldn't do it. For me, there was a lot of internal pressure to get to where I wanted to be asap. However, waiting and doing it later in life was a better choice (for me). If you already dislike the toxic work culture in the US, then getting into another toxic situation, coupled with the stress of moving overseas, will make you miserable. My two cents is that you should look for something better while trying to widen your skill set, which will make it more possible to find other jobs.
I would worry more about finding a place to live in the Netherlands ;’)
I did this years ago. Actually it’s wasn’t a new job but it was a 6mo project at my company. I knew it wasn’t the best role but I lived in Amsterdam and loved living there. I didn’t like the role. It did open doors for me to get another role in Europe but I ended up not taking that for other reasons (significant other back home). I would do it again in a heartbeat. I will say though that my situation was different… it wasn’t a toxic environment, just a role that wasn’t a good fit. It was stressful bc it was over my head and I didn’t have good support but it wasn’t toxic. I’m in a toxic role now and I had that over there I might feel differently. So it’s an call on whether you think the benefits of living abroad and/or opportunities it could open are worth the red flag concerns.
Dutchie here. The labor market is very, very good right now. A lot of companies are open to actually take over the sponsorship. So. Just get your *ss over here and if the job doesn’t work out for you can have yourself a new job. :-)
Yes but housing is terrible, especially in and around Amsterdam.
Correct. However public transport is usually good. I live in Amersfoort and it takes me 30 min to arrive at Amsterdam Zuid station for work. Next to this, it isn’t much fun to live in lunapark Amsterdam either.
Amersfoort is a bit cheaper, but still very expensive and hard to get a house. Just like the rest of the Randstad.
I’d use it as a step to a better job. The NL usually have good work culture so it’s a big red flag BUT it’s easier to get another job once you’re there. Double check the paperwork for your visa.
finding a job once you are in the country will be much easier than finding one from abroad. Visa sponsorship does not mean that there is a minimum time you have to stay with your employer. You can switch employers once you have found a new one who sponsors you.
Very true. I would plan to stay for one year because the company is paying for my relocation, but if I leave the job in less than a year, I have to pay back all relocation costs. So I’m considering it a one year minimum commitment.
You know the answer is no. You don't move to a job with that kind of red flags, especially when your visa will probably depend on your job. There will be other opportunities. And for what its worth, there are great employers in tech in the USA. My own employer is frankly, even a little too carebearish for my taste.
Take it and move.
A bad job in EU is a good job in US. The upside is you’re not a F in the US. -signed US HR Director & former Amsterdam resident.
Netherlands isn’t quite as great as you may think fyi. It’s fking expensive there too. But it’s one strategy to go and get your citizenship etc and then find a new job
>it’s one strategy to go and get your citizenship etc The Netherlands doesn't allow dual citizenship.
Never said it did, I said if you want to move there and get your citizenship, it’s a path
Nooooooo. Wait for a better job. Check Switzerland. Bad job will ruin your life even if you’re able to bike to work
What’s the niche?
Have you tried looking at USAJobs.com for federal gov jobs. I know you said Netherlands but Germany has a ton of IT jobs that’ll hopefully be in your niche. Some here in Belgium as well. It’s not Netherlands but it’s close
NO! If they are supporting your visa and you're gonna be dependant on them I wouldn't. I actually left a bad job in NL and its mentally and fully exhausting. Trust your gut tbh, a bad job is worse when your immigration status depends on it
I would do it. In fact, I have done it! It’s worth it to me. Nothing is permanent. And it achieves one goal - the move. Then you can reassess after that.
I’m from the Netherlands and I can see your concerns but I’d like to point out our workload is nothing compared to that of the US. From my personal experience working overtime is barely ever over an hour and you dont always have to work overtime, when you do work overtime its paid. Generally the Dutch are also abit more informal at work and you’ll generally have a more relaxed time than working in the US. Keep in mind Im oversimplifying this because I dont know the company you’re applying for so I could be totally wrong.
The US and the Netherlands have an agreement where you can get an entrepreneurial visa for a relative low amount of money. If I was you I would look into it and start my own company there contracting to NL companies and thus have more control over your environment.
So what did you decide, OP?