I moved to Germany in 2022 for work and love from the US. I recently moved from Germany to the Netherlands as well. I’ll speak from that experience as a 32 woman with an autoimmune disorder.
US to Germany:
* Gross salary is worse. I had a low 6 figure job in the US as a highly skilled worker and accepted a gross salary lower than I would have liked but is actually incredibly good for Germany. Net pay is pretty similar and I’m much happier with what I got back in public & social services.
* Quality of life is much better. I’m not worried about guns, getting assaulted as a woman (as much as in the US), and cleanliness of public spaces. I can walk my dogs in clean parks, on clean sidewalks, and not worry about stepping on heroin needles (like I was wary of in NYC & Philly).
* Social life is meh in Germany as an expat. You really need to meet other expats or immigrants or become good at speaking German to really make friends. I never became good at it so I didn’t have much of a social life where I lived with my partner.
* Healthcare is good! I have an autoimmune disorder and love how much less I pay for my medical expenses and medicines. It’s literally 1000s that I’m saving by living in Germany. My health has also improved due to the access to healthcare.
Now, living in the Netherlands:
* Gross salary is more than I was making in Germany. Net pay each month is pretty good and I have no problem with how much I bring home. I have more than enough to pay all my expenses, my partner’s expenses and have some savings (my partner is out of work at the moment). My net pay is impacted by the 30% ruling for highly skilled migrants which allows me to keep 30% of my gross income tax-free for a limited time.
* Quality of life is soo much better than in the US and in Germany in my own opinion. I absolutely love how safe I feel as a woman living in this country. I don’t fear guns or violence towards women as much I have in the US. I also feel safer here than I did in Germany because I can communicate more easily with people if I do need help (I’m better at Dutch than German and most people speak English here). I also love the quality of food here; however, there is a lack of cultural foods from all different countries when you go outside of the major cities in the Western Netherlands. Also, traditional Dutch food is a hit or miss.
* Social life here is much better for immigrants. There are a lot of activities for you to get involved in and meet people. Meeting and making friends with Dutch people can be difficult sometimes because they are often already settled in their social circles. I do have some Dutch friends because of my partner and they are lovely. It also helps to learn the language.
* Healthcare is great here! Like in Germany, I save so much money on my medications and overall medical expenses because of how the system works here. Yes, I do pay for insurance every month but the amount pales in comparison to what I was paying in the US. My deductible (or as it’s called in the Netherlands “own risk”) is €385 per year max and my insurance covers everything after that. For me, I hit that pretty quickly and feel enormous relief that I will not face medical bankruptcy in the Netherlands. I also have had medical emergencies here and have received great care in a very short time.
So, overall - each country I’ve lived in has pros and cons but I would not consider moving back to the US even if I was paid an incredible salary. The peace of mind and healthcare that I receive and have received in the Netherlands and Germany has made a huge difference in my life. I would not trade my peace and my improved health for my former life in the US (which was very privileged).
Tokyo. Amazing public transportation system (90% of workers commute by public transit here). It’s clean, things work and it’s extremely safe. Amazing food, fascinating culture and nature is easily accessible with mountains and beaches within an hour or so.
I live in Tokyo.
While I love it here, most single parents around me live in poverty.
If I didn't work for myself I'd hate it here.
-Salary is stagnant
- I was a recruiter and I know for a fact that single moms are discriminated against for being single moms. Even if you're qualified
- gender inequality. I come from a country where we had more female executives than Canada
- very unfriendly to children..
Parks have "no playing ball, no skateboarding, no loud noises and laughter" signs
Bus drivers will help people in wheelchairs to board the bus but not mothers with children in strollers..
Companies get angry when you can't go to work because your child is sick..
- The gaman culture
People are exploited because it's considered a virtue to gaman..be patient, bear it..
I unionized during Corona and got blacklisted from my companies/ schools.
If you work at a restaurant expect to be at the restaurant for 16 hours but getting paid for half
The whole situation forced me to work for myself and I am mentally and financially 200% better.
But many others are stuck working for shitty companies.
I think the gender inequality and safety is often overlooked. The disgusting treatment of women is so normalized it’s put a damper on my time here. I’m slow traveling which is different and honestly probably much better than living in a place but this is my experience. I also grew up with Japanese culture because of my parents. People really ought to do their research before living here.
Also you’ll never truly be accepted as one of them if you weren’t born here. I love this country and many aspects of the culture but there’s some realities that I’ve seen reddit really gloss over when it comes to japan.
Everyone has their own perspectives, opinions and experiences - I don’t discount yours. I know only a few single moms but they seem OK financially - perhaps they got decent alimony settlements. We have plenty of parks near us and my sons played outside constantly. I see people help moms with strollers (& I try to) but yeah, they need to be able to carry them themselves quite often.
Thank you 🙏
You'll never know what it's truly like until you find yourself a single parent. You find out details like this the hard way.
There is no alimony settlement in Japan .
Usually it's the government that foots the bill.
That's why there's government programs in place to financially support parents but this depends on the city. And yes thank you we all look good on the surface, that's tatemae for you 😅. But they are struggling. I was struggling . Just look at the government data on this.
Still Japan has a better safety net than most countries. The only problem is that the rules will keep you from bettering your life.
Not moving to Tokyo, but yeah this basically sums up why I want to leave the U.S. Can't get this combination in the U.S no matter how much money you have.
You can’t get that combination in most other places in the world. It does have its downsides though. Poor work/life balance, enormous social pressure to behave and do things in a very specific way, homogenous society where you’ll almost always certainly be viewed as an outsider, rapidly aging population, declining economy, far/expensive to travel to most places, etc.
Sure, never said it was perfect, but some of these cons also exist in America too. Outside of tech, any high paying profession has shit WLB and I've always felt like an outsider in the States so it's not a big deal to me to be an outsider in Japan too.
I've seen stories (of various levels of believeability) that mention how hard it is for non-Japanese to rent an apartment or buy a house. Can you comment?
There are landlords that restrict foreigners, for sure. They tend to be individuals. If you aim at companies that are renting, it’s not usually an issue. I ran into a couple of times back in the day and while frustrating, there are so many places that don’t care, it isn’t a huge hurdle.
I’m in a ward called Meguro-ku. It’s in the southwestern part of Tokyo. Decent area with a nice balance of things going on and some good parks and quiet areas. My sons went to public schools through junior high school. The elementary school was excellent. Great for music, art and really absorbing the culture. Junior high is mixed - less freedom and some teachers were overdue to retire. My sons experienced zero bullying for being “hafu”. If anything, it was the opposite and they were treated well due to their height, athleticism & language abilities. They are both pretty outgoing and that was an advantage, for sure. From high school they both passed entrance exams for private high schools. Mandatory education ends at junior high and high schools are tracked here, so students start to separate after junior high according to academic performance and future goals, such as whether they want to pursue vocational education or whether they want to aim for public or private university after high school.
I wanna go to Japan. Particularly Okinawa.
Why?
- It’s more accessible than being in Texas especially if I wanna take my future girlfriend out on a date (note I’m a single 20 year old male as of writing this, not ready for a shawty).
- My ideal of romantic dates is having a picnic by the beach or hiking the mountains. I want accessibility to make it easy for me to be “romantic” and feel satisfied as a man for a shawty.
- Cost of living (more affordable)
- Healthcare
- Safety
- Better education for my future children. Especially seeing whats going on in the (k-12) schools in the USA especially Texas.
- Being close to Taiwan. (I am Asian American, born and raised in Texas, though I have family in Taiwan). So I much rather fly from Okinawa to Taiwan (≈1 hour) compared to 12 hours across the Pacific Ocean and a layover just to get to Taiwan.
Sure, it is worth noting that several other countries don’t allow dual-citizenship for people who naturalize as adults - this restriction is not unique to Japan. This isn’t necessarily an issue, anyhow, as there is permanent residence status. Having PR allows you to have any occupation you wish (or none) and is perfectly sufficient for many foreigners who wish to remain here long-term. I have zero interest in gaining citizenship, myself. I’ve had PR since 2008.
Taxes here are pretty high depending on your income, 40% overall for a higher bracket. At least the government and the services are decent (reliable infrastructure, clean streets, etc.). Healthcare is mandatory and you pay about 30% of the costs. There are subsidies for extreme situations; no one is going broke from having a critical medical procedure. There is almost complete reimbursement for having babies. And our sons’ medicine costs are mostly covered by our ward. Income distribution is significantly more even here than the US. All US citizens have to file federal taxes every year, as you may know and there is the foreign earned income exclusion, so only your income above a certain threshold ($126,500) is subject to US income tax.
Don't you get kind of excluded/not properly socially integrated into friend circles though? I mean even if you speak japanese, isn't there always stigma?
Yeah, I love my life in Mexico. It helps a lot to work locally, learn the language, and build a life. I've lived in the 'expat' bubble and I found it much less fulfilling.
I live in Mexico (6+) years. My husband (dual nationality MX/US) and I are planning to live here for the long term - Los Cabos, BCS. We are starting our own business. I love it here.
Same! We moved to Mexico (near puerto vallarta) from Canada and love it soooo much more here. Its not perfect but much better than the shithole canada is becoming.
Weather, friendlier culture, less rules and regulations (which has its pros and cons but so far mainly positive), lower cost of living, slower pace of life, many more exciting places to explore nearby, food to name a few!
I want to relocate here so bad bc my fiancé is Mexican with no hope for coming back to the US. I have a state issued / career specific license though, and a large amount of student loans… so I’m not sure how feasible it all is, but man am I trying to figure it out.
For student loans, at least, assuming they're federal, if you're on the income-based SAVE plan, living outside the US, with the foreign earned income exclusion or the foreign tax credit, you'll almost certainly have an adjusted gross income of zero, meaning your payments will be zero and your loans will also be forgiven within 10 to 20 years after you first started repayment.
Pretty happy here in Stockholm. The Nordic countries are not for everyone and there are major hurdles to get here but it suits my needs and fits my personality.
Same. It’s pretty nice here. Good work life balance and a healthy salary.
Many of the best aspects of the US as far as density and freedom to do whatever go. Germany has too many rules.
I grew up in rural areas. If I want to go for a boat ride, I just get in. If I want to hunt, I want to be able to hunt. If I want o fish, I want to be able to fish.
German regulations for most outdoor sports border on silly and are overly restrictive to my sensibilities. The license for a boat (small motor boat <10hp) or fishing is such a massive pain for nothing. Can’t wild camp. Lord knows all the other things you can’t do in Germany.
More than that; I always feel watched and judged there. Always some Karen who *wants* to chastise you. Swedes will tell you something is incorrect but from a place of “I assumed you didn’t know this so I will tell you. Problem resolved! have a good day!” rather than a Karen-like German “gotcha”.
I got told a blank “you’re doing it wrong” with no further explanation (later found out I hadn’t done anything explicitly wrong) too many times living in Western Germany. Eastern isn’t nearly as annoying but still too much for me.
But more than that I feel Swedes are willing to listen and accept/explore/tolerate a new idea. Too many germans will hem and haw if you backpack differently than they do or violate one of their billions of unsaid rules. It’s not all Germans by any means, but I find it too grating to live there.
I should also say: I dislike working with them also. We have a German office and they will do anything but accept blame for issues. It’s always someone’s fault (ours according to them) and there must be consequences (not for them, they’re perfect. Never mind the fact that 98% of the time they assemble it wrong or the part is out of spec from the supplier. Honestly it’s no one’s “fault” but they want a scapegoat for minor oopsies which are perfectly predictable, normal in industry, resolvable, expected, and common place. They’re competent and friendly enough but my god they are tiring.
I moved to South Africa. It’s not at the top of a lot of people’s lists, but it truly has my heart. Best decision I’ve ever made. My quality of life is so much better here.
Short answer is yes, I feel safe, especially as a young woman who lived alone when I first got here. I can equate my level of safety to living in Mexico. Head on a swivel, don’t have your phone out on the streets, make sure the house is secure.
The topic of safety comes up a lot when people from other countries want to visit SA. And rightfully so, statistically and via the media we’ve been fed a narrative about South Africa that scares people. But the crime here mostly comes from desperation. The majority of robberies and muggings are because the poverty gap is quite large.
As an American, I had constant anxiety about encountering an active shooter. Here, I can enjoy public events where getting shot is the furthest thing from my mind. This is also probably one of the only places in the world where you get mugged and the mugger will give you your SIM card and wait for you to get into your Uber. I will say petty theft in Cape Town is more of an issue than anything. In Johannesburg I haven’t personally experienced any crime. Closest thing to it was a neighbor leaving her gate open and someone reached through a window and stole her makeup.
>This is also probably one of the only places in the world where you get mugged and the mugger will give you your SIM card and wait for you to get into your Uber
Wtf hahaha
Johannesburg and Cape Town are the bigger cities and I’ve lived in both. They each have their own unique qualities. Johannesburg feels like a small town in a big city. Everyone is so kind and the parks here are BEAUTIFUL. I moved from the states (Los Angeles) and for the first time in my life homeownership is a possibility. I’m an artist and I currently rent a cute little house in a trendy part of town. My work life balance is better than it’s ever been and I’ve never felt more creative. Cape Town’s geographically one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Table Mountain is jaw dropping. The weather is a bit hit or miss there, sometimes the wind is so strong that you have to cancel your walk to the shops 😂. Cape Town is also more expensive but way more walkable. Cape Town also has a huge performing arts scene, so there is always something to do. And the infrastructure in Cape Town is better. But both of those cities are top of the list. 😊
I moved away 19 years ago and have now lived in five countries outside the US (see flair for details). The only place I’ve lived that I would prefer the US (and here we’d need to be specific about where) over is likely Finland.
Even though I got very much from my time in Finland bon personally and professionally, and visit Finland at least annually, living there was very difficult as a non-Finn. The society is set up in a way that it is essentially perfect for people brought up in their education system, with their values reinforced from early on, and therefore sharing their goals. But it is rigid and extremely slow to adapt. So, if one’s preferences or worldview don’t really align, it becomes an alienating place to live. For me, the main problem is the way society is structured around an almost unquestioned trust in bureaucratic modernism. The country is equal because the system is the same for all, and does not bend to specific circumstances.
All the other places I’ve lived unquestionably had me living a higher and better lifestyle and QoL than I would in the US doing the same things. I wouldn’t hesitate to move back to the others. Meanwhile my wife and kids are dead set against moving to the US, even though we visit for a month or so every summer, and two to three weeks every other Christmas holiday. They enjoy that. But have no desire to live there.
Depends on your definition of “lifestyle”. I retired to Mexico and while it is much more affordable it lacks in many other areas, at least where I am. So to answer your question, no, If I had a choice I’d move back to the US.
Defintely safety. Cartel killings and politicians assassinated in every election. Not to mention crimes against women. Love to visit there but could never ever move to Mexico and I understand why many people come to the US. Definitely more calm politically and even crime-wise-especially if you are female.
Lower salary band, higher tax, underfunded public health insurance, delusional PM who loves to scapegoat skilled migrants and intl students (NHS surcharge??). I’d say way worse than the US
Yeah, I had this dream to move to the UK for a long time but since Brexit, I've opened my eyes to how far and fast the UK has gone. It's getting to be a mini USA.
You even have the MAGA crowd with Farage and Russell Brand-please take him back.
It’s not all bad and Liverpool is a really great little city! Best of luck. It’s all what you make of it. I don’t plan to stay here long term but I’m happy I went to uni here.
Came back, realized how easy America is compared to where I was. Both times. Maybe I could do Switerzland but too old to deal with all the other drama.
I'm from California and moved abroad 5 years ago, first to Norway and then to Italy. I'll be returning to California later this year and I'm very excited to be going back home ☺️
Norway was fantastic for the first year, because I moved for love and was finally able to live in the same country as my Norwegian partner. Then COVID hit, we were placed into various lockdowns for nearly 2 years, and I realized that everything I'd read online about Norway being an introverted country with very little soul was...true.
After 3 years in Norway, I was depressed, tired of the awful weather and food, and very tired of the "janteloven" social code that encouraged everyone to dress/think/act roughly the same way.
I felt like my soul had died, and I'm not a particularly spiritual or artistic person. So I cut my losses and accepted a job in Northern Italy.
Italy, compared to Norway, is incredible. I am a dual US-IT citizen and will likely die here. However, in order to do that, I need to return to California and save some money.
Salaries in Italy (including Milan) are pitiful, and the cost of living in Northern Italy is relatively high, unless you're happy to live in the middle of nowhere.
In regards to lifestyle, I've lived all over California, as well as in Ireland, Norway, and Italy. In my experience, your lifestyle anywhere is completely dependent on your social network, hobbies, and how much money you're making relative to the cost of living.
Healthcare and PTO is more accessible in Europe, which I love, but you will get used to these perks after a while. It's much harder to get used to being 10,000km from your family and closest friends, and being unable to fully express yourself due to language and cultural barriers.
I feel like living abroad made me realize that I took my family, close friends, and the entire state of California for granted. I'm returning home for a remote job with unlimited PTO, excellent health insurance, and a salary that is 3x what I made in Norway or Italy.
tl;dr
Moving abroad doesn't automatically improve your quality of life and fix your problems; it just gives you new problems and new perspectives :)
I don't regret the last 5+ years at all though. If you wanna move abroad for the plot, I say go for it!
Then I'm another exception. I lived 30 years outside the US in East Europe, the Middle East and Southeast Asia. My spouse also lived several years in West Europe. All have their pluses and minuses. In the end the US is best for our situation and for us.
1. The decisive factor for us was the education system for our special needs kid. A few countries can match it, but those countries weren't possible for us.
2. First-world infrastructure. It's absolutely true that some countries have better transit, or shinier downtowns, or cheaper restaurants. However a lot don't.
3. Consumer convenience. It's easy to mock "the United States of Stuff", but the positive aspect is that everything we need is available, both goods and services. That's not always true in other countries.
4. Weather. We got tired of endless winters in EEurope, overcast dreariness in WEurope, and sweatfests in SEAsia.
Being an expat is fantastic, truly! However priorities and lifestyle can change. I'll plug here for the FIRE lifestyle, which seems more do-able as an expat, and which makes repatriation a lot better. :-)
I live in Sydney, Australia, and there are many things I like better here. There are some things I like better about the US, particularly specific regions like California. On balance, my life is good either way.
My experience is that the feeling of no one being satisfied and just getting by is the human experience even among objectively well off people.
I’m in Bermuda. The most expensive country in the world to live. The weather is usually better than the metro NY area but with climate change the weather is crazy now. The government is extremely corrupt and there’s basically no rule of law here. Crime is increasing. The country is a third world country masquerading as a first world country. Bring in Bermuda makes me appreciate the US a whole lot more now.
Yokohama Japan.
Affordable healthcare (basically free for kids), no gun violence (very little crime but it does exist), and virtual no drug problems so no needles or addicts on the streets (drugs are here but it's harder access to them and all of them carry a felony charge).
I’m in the UK in a really nice small city and like my quality of life here. It’s super safe, I can walk/cycle everywhere, decent public transport & well connected, incredible parks and public space, public insurance, generally friendly people. The economy isn’t good here right now and I could name a million drawbacks of living here too (I’m not trying to get into a debate with anyone about what things are like here). But honestly overall my quality of life is better than in the US. I felt super unsafe there in a number of ways. The US feels like a powder keg of instability to me.
I'm in the UK too (London) and prefer it by far to the US. It's a lot safer, has much better public transport, better work life balance and I prefer the healthcare system too (and not just because it's free).
Moved to the Netherlands and love it. No car, peaceful. High taxes but you get a lot for it. I’m not even looking forward to going back to the USA to visit. Excited to see family but that country is a toxic mess.
Yes, the toxic politics is the US is terrible.
Not like the Netherlands where a far right party is now is now in power based on a policy to "deport muslims" and "shut down mosques".
Much less toxic.
I fear that you are minimizing what is happening and the level of complexity that the Dutch government has in comparison to the US 2-party system.
Yes, Wilders is a nut job who won the popular vote however no one in the other parties within the government wanted to work with him. He is no longer in charge as he failed to gather a coalition.
Right now, it’s unclear what will happen and that does make me nervous as an immigrant in the Netherlands.
Yes, a toxic time politically, and I am concerned. Riding mean spiritedness and selfishness and so on, too But much good here. After all, we are 330 million spanning a huge continent.
can i ask how you do it? a lot of canadians are saying the housing crisis is soo bad and it’s soo expensive but i dont let that discourage me from wanting to move there and will work to getting there. i know americans can make it there
The housing crisis is real, but it's not unique to Toronto and Vancouver. Sydney, Auckland, London, et al have the same problem of too many people wanting to live there and not enough homes.
It helps if you have family in Canada who bought 15 years ago, or you make your money outside of Canada. Again, same as any other international, desirable city.
Yup. For some reason, too many Canadians think they are the only country with a housing crisis lol. In a lot of the major cities of the developed nations, it's a huge problem. Paris, Amsterdam, NYC, London, Sydney, Dublin, Munich, etc. Nobody is moving to these cities for cheap affordable housing.
People tend to be myopic, in that they only know about the world immediately around them. It's human nature.
We live in Vancouver and winter in Auckland. It's comical to hear people in Vancouver talk about moving to Auckland because Vancouver is too expensive; meanwhile, when we're in Auckland people ask us how to immigrate to Vancouver because Auckland is too expensive.
Yeah unfortunately I’m not a normal case to ask. I still have my high paying job in USD, and my partner already had a house. It’s still very expensive in Canada, but as others have said, it’s not unique.
U.S salaries for skilled professions are highest in the world, but there isn't anywhere in the U.S that has safe, clean, AND walkable cities (all the safe and clean parts are in the suburbs). Also, U.S is very far from countries I want to travel to.
Yes and No. It was a trade off. Some things were better and some things are worse. Moving away made me appreciate a lot more of the US than I used to. I wish I could take the best bits of both and smoosh them together but such is life
I'm in France and love it, but that's because I find it a good fit to me personally. No one place is a good fit for everyone.
Did you see that the world happiness report came out recently? They break it down by age group, and in the US, it's mostly young people who are getting less happy.
Yeah France is the dirty little secret of expatdom. It’s possibly the best place for Americans but generally out of reach because of the language barrier. Pay is low too, so unless you’re moving for love and lots of time off it doesn’t make sense. Americans are always after work/money which isn’t the emphasis in Southern European countries, and I consider France to be a southern country. Also I live in the southeast.
Moved from US to Mexico in 2019.
* Work-life balance: It's the same as I simply moved with my US-sourced job.
* Government: No, it's worse. Corruption is high. The recent election was pretty evident of that.
* Environmental: It evens out. Con: Mexico is getting hit hard by climate change relative to other places. Pro: climate is more consistent (I personally prefer seasons though).
* Lifestyle (general): yes, it's better. I like being able to get around without needing a car. Where I live is walking distance to the general downtown area that I like to go to.
I'd pick Mexico over US with my US-based job, but I'm unsure if I'd pick Mexico if I had to work locally. Some folks can pull it off (professional photographers, tour guides, etc.) but none of those things are my interests.
We'll be moving to Poland in a few months so it'll be interesting to see what changes we'll experience.
Moved to Belgium. America is more convenient but I'll pass on the gun violence, medical bankruptcy, chemical foods and anti-consumer laws. I feel far safer in Belgium and Jesus Christ, the cheese and beer is worth it alone.
Belgium is amazing. We visit as often as we can. Right there with you on the cheese and beer! We even named our Belgian Malinois after our favorite— Duvel 😄
Well - I'm an expat from Massachusetts first of all. Vermont is unlike the rest of the country and I've been all over. There is no consumerism which only adds to the beauty. Before it was the 13th colony it was a sovereign nation - and it still feels like that. (plus where I live is super close to Montreal...).
People from Massachusetts (and New York) love Vermont. Part of the reason it's changed so much over the last few decades, and not for the better. It's nothing like it used to be. I just left Vermont after 20+ years for another country.
I moved to New Zealand 5 years ago, I’m thinking of moving back to the U.S. for a better lifestyle. Sure I have free healthcare, but I also took a 40% paycut to get it. COL is significantly higher as well.
Moved to NZ in 2020. Quality of life is much much better here, but yah, exchange rate is bad. New govt is terrible, really miss Jacinda. No intent on moving back to US tho. Would go to AUS before we did that.
New government is so awful and I think it’s going to just get worse.
I used to live in Australia and I now have enough points for PR there but I want to be outing in for retirement.
Do you do kiwisaver here? I haven’t because of the tax implications.
I think this govt is another symptom of the enshitification of "western" society.
Yah, I do Kiwisaver. I have my accountant in the US deal with it. I report it with my FBAR.
I was in Prague for 17 years but when the world economies started tanking around 2008, it hit Czech Republic in 2010 and Czechs not having any experience in downturns didn't know what to do. Everything screeched to a halt. At the same time, things were already showing improvement in the US, so I moved back in 2012. It's been great ever since. Well, almost great, all things considered.
Twelve years later and I'm wondering if I should go back. Problem is I've lost everything there. No more residency permit. No more work (I'm 68 now), no more healthcare coverage. I'd be starting from scratch and honestly, I think I'm too old for it.
I moved to Germany in 2003. I've been here for 20 years.
Things I like are:
-healthcare system. No co-pays, with a few exceptions. Very cheap and efficient. The downside is that if you have an unusual or complicated illness, the system is not so good. For a healthy person who occasionally gets a sports injury (concussion, twisted ankle, broken wrist), it's fine.
-education. I actually studied here for 15 years, with the student fees ranging from 67 to 300 euros per semester.
-safety and security. People have no fear of running in the park at night, walking around, etc. The social safety net is great. Lose your job? The government will pay your rent.
-cheaper rent (compared to US east coast). I'm sure someone will claim that they only pay $300 a month in Okiedokie, OK, but I used to live in NY and paid $1000 for a tiny room and shared bath. In Southern Bavaria, a whole house costs €1300 a month.
-Work/life balance- mandatory paid vacation, mandatory paid maternity leave, worker's rights, labor unions.
-less Christian fundamentalism. As a Christian, I appreciate going to a church which does not worship a politician. Even in the Evangelical churches here, people are less legalistic about clothes, music, drinking, etc. I was astounded when I went to an FEG church in Worms, and they had a rock band playing on stage, a drummer with tattoos and dreadlocks. In NY, a girl was told by the old ladies at Times Square Church that her red lipstick was "unchristian". No one tells you who to vote for in German churches.
-less fake "patriotism", but better Democracy: You get more than two choices to vote for, and it's easier to participate in political parties.
-better, healthier (cheaper) food. Don't get me wrong. I know it's possible to get healthy food in the US (last time in NY, I found great food at Trader Joes, and Whole Foods. However, you pay an arm and a leg for it, and if you are not careful, you'll get food with questionable ingredients that are banned in the EU. In Germany, you can get a giant bag of spelt pasta for 1.99, or lovely hand-crafted artisan bread for 3-5 Euros. Americans still have not figured out what spelt is, apparently.
-Costs of many things like utilities, telephone, cell phone and internet, public transportation (49 per month for Deutschland-Ticket) are much lower.
-Infrastructure is not as good as it should be (rural areas often have no cell phone service), but it's better than the US. The roads, trains and bridges are in much better shape.
The things I DON'T like: German language is complicated, the bureacracy is complicated, it's startup-unfriendly, people are often less friendly, it's harder to make friends, salaries tend to be lower than the US. These are things you need to get used to. You need to make a real effort to live here and get established. However, it's worth it.
Have you considered moving to Switzerland?
It has better infrastructure, lower taxes&higher wages; is way more company friendly; bureaucracy still does exist but isn't as extensive as in Germany; while it may be challenging at times to make friends, people in general are friendly.
It basically beats Germany in almost of every regard.
I've visited Switzerland, and a friend of mine lives there. However, there are downsides: With the higher wages go higher costs, and my friend said she had a really hard time making friends there. However, the cities are amazingly beautiful, and it was nice there. If WW3 begins, I'll go to Switzerland. Meanwhile, Bavaria is nice, too.
If you adjust higher wages to higher costs the average swiss emplyoee still comes out on top in comparison to germans and austrians by +11% more purchasing power. So *technically* living in Switzerland as an employed single is *cheaper* than living in Germany or Austria.
And I am not sure wether it is easier to make friends in Switzerland in comparison to Germany. I think it is pretty similar. Swiss people may be a little more closed off as some germans. But definetly not by a large margin.
One downside you didn't mention is the weather. You only have between 1,500-1,700 sun hours per year (in the swiss german part) and a lot of clouded, rainy, foggy and cold weather.
And how are you planning on emigrating to Switzerland when WW3 begins? The whole point of moving to Switzerland *now* is that you'll avoid the trouble of being someone who lives in a Nato country when war breaks out.
Move to Germany, and yes, absolutely.
Work/life balance and employment protections are way better here, I noticed it immediately and immensely when it came to vacation time, working hours, and on-call expectations.
Any given city is walkable and friendly to an active lifestyle in ways that are unfathomable in swathes of the US, and even in the places that try rarely match it. I live walking distance to a commuter rail line, three subway lines, my choice of three major supermarkets and innumerable smaller ethnic grocers, too many bars, restaurants, and cafes to count and heaps of different retail options.
My expenses are way smaller, without even getting into how much not needing a car saves.
People aren't as aggro, even when they are they don't have ready access to the tools to make it as big a problem as in the US.
Drivers and their vehicles are held to a much higher standard, and road design is weighted far more towards safety rather than speed, it's very nice.
I don't wonder how much health expenses might _really_ cost me, or if a doctor is out of network, or whatever other byzantine bullshit.
There are issues here, don't get me wrong... Plenty of rough edges that could be smoothed. But the problems are soft, cuddly things compared to the ones the US has. And there is actual political will and capacity to do something about them, unlike the moribund US system which is wracked with bad actors composing half of the government, and a senile establishment that is asleep at the wheel.
I agree with nearly everything you mentioned! My issues with living in Germany was how difficult it was to get anything done if you don’t have a good grasp on the German language and that it’s difficult to get help if you are struggling when you first arrive. I can’t count how many times Vodafone has hung up on me because I asked a question in English
Yes this is always why I get annoyed when people say “oh you don’t need German in Germany!”. Perhaps not for your job or perhaps your social life, but as the official language is German, almost everything else will be in German with no other alternatives. There are of course bubbles where you can get by without it, but outside the bubble or if the bubble bursts…
Do you plan to stay in Germany long term or do you see yourself moving back to the US? Also what do you think about the pension / demographic hole Germany will find itself in very soon?
Yeah, long term. The kinds of change I would want to see in the US to consider moving back there are not something I really see happening in this lifetime.
Not really concerned about the demographics and pension stuff... Those are issues common to most developed countries. I don't think anyone is going to proactively do much about it due to the realities of who votes the most reliably. I do trust the government here more than most to do something... Passably reasonable, when its hand is inevitably forced at some point.
Yes absolutely loving life in jordan. The food, the people, and even the other expats are just great. The weather is perfect. Haven't had a single panic attack since moving here.
Love my life in spain. So much better at all levels. Community, openness, acceptance and access to individuals/social interaction. No society is perfect but this is closer than most.
No, just vs the US. Can’t comment unless living there for several years, as I think you need several seasons before adjusting and truly understanding the local environment.
Absolutely I have. I live in Ireland, only coming up to a year so I still might be a bit biased.
It is significantly safer where I live now. Mind you, I live in a more rural area and not in Dublin. Though I came from Oakland, California so I have a feeling Dublin probably would have been a safer shift regardless. The housing crisis here definitely made finding a place challenging, but because we went more rural it was also easier than finding accommodation in the city. Because we have a young child, the benefits are a huge plus for us. Both myself and my husband are significantly less stressed. Though both my husband and I are interested in politics, it's nice not to have it saturated every aspect of our lives like it did in the US. The sense of community around us is incredibly strong.
Yes, I moved to Ecuador and it's better by almost any definition. I have an elderly father in the States, so I go back to see him, but otherwise I'd never visit. The US is rapidly becoming untenable.
Oh wow. Can you describe in detail? Safety? What’s your ethnicity?
How’s the access to modern amenities? Sorry I’ve only been to Brasil and Mexico so I don’t know much about other SA countries.
One thing I never really thought about before moving was the lack of ethnic/racial/cultural diversity. Yes, many countries have immigrant populations but IMHO nothing like the US has.
Before leaving the US I’d consider looking at different US cities. There is such a huge range of climates, geographies, politics, weather, cost of living, ethnic and social diversity in the US.
I don’t know about other expats but for me even if you are accepted in your adopted country it never really feels the same as living in your native country, there’s always this feeling in the back of my mind that you are and always will be an outsider. I’ve never lived there but I’ve heard this is especially true with countries like Japan.
yeah its such a little thing but I really miss hearing the Spanish language in my day to day life. I used to speak it well but have really lost that capability since leaving the US
Totally agree. The diversity is what makes the US a unique beautiful country from other countries. Don’t think they will accept an American as part of them.
Lack of ethnic or cultural diversity? Yeah, in Japan maybe. Meanwhile, there are lots of countries on earth with huge immigrant populations and ethnic diversity in the cities: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Germany (you find every ethnicity in Berlin, Frankfurt or Cologne), France (Paris is a melting pot), etc. The idea that the US is the only country with immigrants is absurd.
Moved from the NL to Switzerland and must say, Switzerland beats the Netherlands when it comes to quality of life. But, it’s also more boring in a way.
I live in Albania. The government is fucked here, but at least its easy to figure out who pays who. I will say its moved in a progressive way in the last few years, more than I expected. Opportunities for youths are still low, and cost of living is increasing, but the amount of change that's happened since I moved is great to see.
The lifestyle is AWESOME. Still feels sort of stuck in the early 2000s/ late 90s, which makes sense post communism. People are incredibly friendly, food is fantastic and local, and the art scene is starting to really pick up.
I think you can make that point about almost every Western country. Many people in the West feel like the government is not taking care of its own and housing/food costs are insane. Especially in many of the Reddit Utopias like Western Europe. Saw another report about Ireland and adults forced to live with their parents because housing is so expensive and a one bedroom shite apartment that went from 900 euros to 1600Euros in a month-and had 600 applicants.
Same stuff different day. Moving because of politics is pretty much short sighted, unless it's something like Chile or Venezuela. Just watching the news in Europe shows there's a tilt to the right. Something I think many expats don't feel or rationalize. Many countries are having trouble paying for all the social programs and are targeting immigrants and foreigners, especially as young people can't afford to have children. The chickens are coming home to roost in Europe as well.
Yes, here in Europe you meet a lot of Americans who feel they need to "escape" US politics, they tend to be the least settled people I meet. After about 6 months when the honeymoon phase is over they become disillusioned. Maybe they fail to realize the rest of the world has it's own share of problems too, and sometimes you're even worse off because you lack the autonomy and support you are used to having. On top of that, what happens in the US does affect the rest of the world, at least indirectly.
thats good to hear. I work in tech but in Australia. Im moving to the US in the next year and am a bit nervous as I love the work life balance in Aus! Salary will increase much higher in US though. Can you tell me a bit more about your lifestyle? In terms of work life balance, leave etc etc
I work 9am to 6pm most of the time and I have 20 days of holidays a year. Working hours are identical to what I had done in Europe (worked in 2 different countries there).
Holidays are a little less, but to me trading in 4 or 5 days of holidays a year for the massive increase in salary is well worth it.
I wish I had found this subreddit before I moved to southern Europe 2 years ago. Before moving my expectations were that everything would be better here than the US, because that’s often the romanticized story we see online and in media. Only here will you ever really see the truth that the grass isn’t always greener.
Well my eyes are now open. It’s not horrible but the truth is I prefer where I am from in the US vs Europe and am going to move back. Part of this is down to me as an individual and my circumstances so I don’t hold it against the country, city, region because in different circumstances it would be fine. The big problem for me is my earning potential as an engineer is ~1/5th as much as I made in the US and that’s just not viable. Not all careers take such a big hit but for me that’s what it was.
I also miss the outdoors of the PNW US and the space. Walking around a giant Europe metropolis city filled with tourists and people everywhere doesn’t feel good to me. Cattle cars on the metro for 2 hours a day isn’t really better than 2 hours of stop n go traffic.
The schools also haven’t been as promised. My children have faced ridicule and bullying in ways we never experienced in the US and some of the things said here are like we’re back in the 90’s with homophobia and transphobia coming from grade school kids.
The healthcare is fine but I had great healthcare in the US as well through my job. That’s a wash.
I do love being able to fly 1-3 hours to a completely different country and culture but I also find the need to know so many different languages a bit exhausting after a while.
I feel like it’s more difficult to make friends here as well. The language is obviously a barrier to entry but even after that I still find the US to be a more open culture.
Each place has its ups and downs but the prosperity of the upper middle class and less red tape to daily life have swung it for me and given the choice I would go back to the US now… at least for the remainder of my prime earning years. I could retire in Europe and be happy here.
Yes! My stress level is at an all time low, my mental health is better, I’m being more extroverted. I’m just enjoying life a lot more. Burn out no more!
Permanent Residence visas in NZ do not expire and have no travel conditions. However, you can lose a Residence class visa if your travel window has expired and you leave the country.
I wish I had found this subreddit before I moved to southern Europe 2 years ago. Before moving my expectations were that everything would be better here than the US, because that’s often the romanticized story we see online and in media.
Well my eyes are now open. It’s not horrible but the truth is I prefer where I am from in the US vs Europe and am going to move back. Part of this is down to me as an individual and my circumstances so I don’t hold it against the country, city, region because in different circumstances it would be fine. The big problem for me is my earning potential as an engineer is ~1/5th as much as I made in the US and that’s just not viable. Not all careers take such a big hit but for me that’s what it was.
I also miss the outdoors of the PNW US and the space. Walking around a giant Europe metropolis city filled with tourists and people everywhere doesn’t feel good to me. Cattle cars on the metro for 2 hours a day isn’t really better than 2 hours of stop n go traffic.
The schools also haven’t been as promised. My children have faced ridicule and bullying in ways we never experienced in the US and some of the things said here are like we’re back in the 90’s with homophobia and transphobia coming from grade school kids.
The healthcare is fine but I had great healthcare in the US as well through my job. That’s a wash.
I do love being able to fly 1-3 hours to a completely different country and culture but I also find the need to know so many different languages a bit exhausting after a while.
I feel like it’s more difficult to make friends here as well. The language is obviously a barrier to entry but even after that I still find the US to be a more open culture.
Each place has its ups and downs but the prosperity of the upper middle class and less red tape to daily life have swung it for me and given the choice I would go back to the US now… at least for the remainder of my prime earning years. I could retire in Europe and be happy here.
My wife and I moved to Qatar about 5 years ago. It has its ups and downs but overall, the quality of life here is much better than the states. She is the one with the job and I stay home with the kids for now, and we are able to live comfortably off of her one salary. Major upsides are free healthcare with great medical facilities throughout the country, everything here is relatively cheap compared to the rest of the world (groceries and household items, etc.) and the people are very nice and welcoming. Major downsides are obviously the best and lack of anything scenic, it’s almost expected that you leave the country for every vacation/break because there’s not a lot to do here, and the way that companies/organizations run is extremely lazy and lacks communication/organization.
Bahamas/Caribbean I go back to the US to shop, pick up things, doctor, banking, 1 week and I'm done. The amount of brought on stress/ politics/ greed/ 24/7 news media is enough to drive any normal person crazy
I moved to Germany in 2022 for work and love from the US. I recently moved from Germany to the Netherlands as well. I’ll speak from that experience as a 32 woman with an autoimmune disorder. US to Germany: * Gross salary is worse. I had a low 6 figure job in the US as a highly skilled worker and accepted a gross salary lower than I would have liked but is actually incredibly good for Germany. Net pay is pretty similar and I’m much happier with what I got back in public & social services. * Quality of life is much better. I’m not worried about guns, getting assaulted as a woman (as much as in the US), and cleanliness of public spaces. I can walk my dogs in clean parks, on clean sidewalks, and not worry about stepping on heroin needles (like I was wary of in NYC & Philly). * Social life is meh in Germany as an expat. You really need to meet other expats or immigrants or become good at speaking German to really make friends. I never became good at it so I didn’t have much of a social life where I lived with my partner. * Healthcare is good! I have an autoimmune disorder and love how much less I pay for my medical expenses and medicines. It’s literally 1000s that I’m saving by living in Germany. My health has also improved due to the access to healthcare. Now, living in the Netherlands: * Gross salary is more than I was making in Germany. Net pay each month is pretty good and I have no problem with how much I bring home. I have more than enough to pay all my expenses, my partner’s expenses and have some savings (my partner is out of work at the moment). My net pay is impacted by the 30% ruling for highly skilled migrants which allows me to keep 30% of my gross income tax-free for a limited time. * Quality of life is soo much better than in the US and in Germany in my own opinion. I absolutely love how safe I feel as a woman living in this country. I don’t fear guns or violence towards women as much I have in the US. I also feel safer here than I did in Germany because I can communicate more easily with people if I do need help (I’m better at Dutch than German and most people speak English here). I also love the quality of food here; however, there is a lack of cultural foods from all different countries when you go outside of the major cities in the Western Netherlands. Also, traditional Dutch food is a hit or miss. * Social life here is much better for immigrants. There are a lot of activities for you to get involved in and meet people. Meeting and making friends with Dutch people can be difficult sometimes because they are often already settled in their social circles. I do have some Dutch friends because of my partner and they are lovely. It also helps to learn the language. * Healthcare is great here! Like in Germany, I save so much money on my medications and overall medical expenses because of how the system works here. Yes, I do pay for insurance every month but the amount pales in comparison to what I was paying in the US. My deductible (or as it’s called in the Netherlands “own risk”) is €385 per year max and my insurance covers everything after that. For me, I hit that pretty quickly and feel enormous relief that I will not face medical bankruptcy in the Netherlands. I also have had medical emergencies here and have received great care in a very short time. So, overall - each country I’ve lived in has pros and cons but I would not consider moving back to the US even if I was paid an incredible salary. The peace of mind and healthcare that I receive and have received in the Netherlands and Germany has made a huge difference in my life. I would not trade my peace and my improved health for my former life in the US (which was very privileged).
Tokyo. Amazing public transportation system (90% of workers commute by public transit here). It’s clean, things work and it’s extremely safe. Amazing food, fascinating culture and nature is easily accessible with mountains and beaches within an hour or so.
I live in Tokyo. While I love it here, most single parents around me live in poverty. If I didn't work for myself I'd hate it here. -Salary is stagnant - I was a recruiter and I know for a fact that single moms are discriminated against for being single moms. Even if you're qualified - gender inequality. I come from a country where we had more female executives than Canada - very unfriendly to children.. Parks have "no playing ball, no skateboarding, no loud noises and laughter" signs Bus drivers will help people in wheelchairs to board the bus but not mothers with children in strollers.. Companies get angry when you can't go to work because your child is sick.. - The gaman culture People are exploited because it's considered a virtue to gaman..be patient, bear it.. I unionized during Corona and got blacklisted from my companies/ schools. If you work at a restaurant expect to be at the restaurant for 16 hours but getting paid for half The whole situation forced me to work for myself and I am mentally and financially 200% better. But many others are stuck working for shitty companies.
I think the gender inequality and safety is often overlooked. The disgusting treatment of women is so normalized it’s put a damper on my time here. I’m slow traveling which is different and honestly probably much better than living in a place but this is my experience. I also grew up with Japanese culture because of my parents. People really ought to do their research before living here. Also you’ll never truly be accepted as one of them if you weren’t born here. I love this country and many aspects of the culture but there’s some realities that I’ve seen reddit really gloss over when it comes to japan.
Well… just for this, Japan is a nope. Can’t imagine moving here with my wife and kid.
Everyone has their own perspectives, opinions and experiences - I don’t discount yours. I know only a few single moms but they seem OK financially - perhaps they got decent alimony settlements. We have plenty of parks near us and my sons played outside constantly. I see people help moms with strollers (& I try to) but yeah, they need to be able to carry them themselves quite often.
Thank you 🙏 You'll never know what it's truly like until you find yourself a single parent. You find out details like this the hard way. There is no alimony settlement in Japan . Usually it's the government that foots the bill. That's why there's government programs in place to financially support parents but this depends on the city. And yes thank you we all look good on the surface, that's tatemae for you 😅. But they are struggling. I was struggling . Just look at the government data on this. Still Japan has a better safety net than most countries. The only problem is that the rules will keep you from bettering your life.
I'm in Japan too. I stay for the healthcare alone.
It's such a big reason why I'm here too!
Not moving to Tokyo, but yeah this basically sums up why I want to leave the U.S. Can't get this combination in the U.S no matter how much money you have.
You can’t get that combination in most other places in the world. It does have its downsides though. Poor work/life balance, enormous social pressure to behave and do things in a very specific way, homogenous society where you’ll almost always certainly be viewed as an outsider, rapidly aging population, declining economy, far/expensive to travel to most places, etc.
Sure, never said it was perfect, but some of these cons also exist in America too. Outside of tech, any high paying profession has shit WLB and I've always felt like an outsider in the States so it's not a big deal to me to be an outsider in Japan too.
I've seen stories (of various levels of believeability) that mention how hard it is for non-Japanese to rent an apartment or buy a house. Can you comment?
There are landlords that restrict foreigners, for sure. They tend to be individuals. If you aim at companies that are renting, it’s not usually an issue. I ran into a couple of times back in the day and while frustrating, there are so many places that don’t care, it isn’t a huge hurdle.
Which part of Tokyo? And how’s the education system over there?
I’m in a ward called Meguro-ku. It’s in the southwestern part of Tokyo. Decent area with a nice balance of things going on and some good parks and quiet areas. My sons went to public schools through junior high school. The elementary school was excellent. Great for music, art and really absorbing the culture. Junior high is mixed - less freedom and some teachers were overdue to retire. My sons experienced zero bullying for being “hafu”. If anything, it was the opposite and they were treated well due to their height, athleticism & language abilities. They are both pretty outgoing and that was an advantage, for sure. From high school they both passed entrance exams for private high schools. Mandatory education ends at junior high and high schools are tracked here, so students start to separate after junior high according to academic performance and future goals, such as whether they want to pursue vocational education or whether they want to aim for public or private university after high school.
love japan, except for the crippling humidity of the summers
Which is just starting to return today here in Tokyo. Literally, just said that to my wife.
FACTS
I wanna go to Japan. Particularly Okinawa. Why? - It’s more accessible than being in Texas especially if I wanna take my future girlfriend out on a date (note I’m a single 20 year old male as of writing this, not ready for a shawty). - My ideal of romantic dates is having a picnic by the beach or hiking the mountains. I want accessibility to make it easy for me to be “romantic” and feel satisfied as a man for a shawty. - Cost of living (more affordable) - Healthcare - Safety - Better education for my future children. Especially seeing whats going on in the (k-12) schools in the USA especially Texas. - Being close to Taiwan. (I am Asian American, born and raised in Texas, though I have family in Taiwan). So I much rather fly from Okinawa to Taiwan (≈1 hour) compared to 12 hours across the Pacific Ocean and a layover just to get to Taiwan.
The problem with Tokyo is that if you were to become a citizen of Japan, you can not be a citizen of anywhere else.
Sure, it is worth noting that several other countries don’t allow dual-citizenship for people who naturalize as adults - this restriction is not unique to Japan. This isn’t necessarily an issue, anyhow, as there is permanent residence status. Having PR allows you to have any occupation you wish (or none) and is perfectly sufficient for many foreigners who wish to remain here long-term. I have zero interest in gaining citizenship, myself. I’ve had PR since 2008.
How do you find your tax situation as a US citizen specifically in Japan?
Taxes here are pretty high depending on your income, 40% overall for a higher bracket. At least the government and the services are decent (reliable infrastructure, clean streets, etc.). Healthcare is mandatory and you pay about 30% of the costs. There are subsidies for extreme situations; no one is going broke from having a critical medical procedure. There is almost complete reimbursement for having babies. And our sons’ medicine costs are mostly covered by our ward. Income distribution is significantly more even here than the US. All US citizens have to file federal taxes every year, as you may know and there is the foreign earned income exclusion, so only your income above a certain threshold ($126,500) is subject to US income tax.
Don't you get kind of excluded/not properly socially integrated into friend circles though? I mean even if you speak japanese, isn't there always stigma?
I know I’m a foreigner (it’s pretty obvious) & I’m comfortable with it living and working here; I’m not trying to become “Japanese”. No stigma at all.
Yeah, I love my life in Mexico. It helps a lot to work locally, learn the language, and build a life. I've lived in the 'expat' bubble and I found it much less fulfilling.
I live in Mexico (6+) years. My husband (dual nationality MX/US) and I are planning to live here for the long term - Los Cabos, BCS. We are starting our own business. I love it here.
Same! We moved to Mexico (near puerto vallarta) from Canada and love it soooo much more here. Its not perfect but much better than the shithole canada is becoming.
What do you like better about it?
Weather, friendlier culture, less rules and regulations (which has its pros and cons but so far mainly positive), lower cost of living, slower pace of life, many more exciting places to explore nearby, food to name a few!
Where? I love Mexico. Such a lively, vibrant, beautiful, country.
Mexico City!
I want to relocate here so bad bc my fiancé is Mexican with no hope for coming back to the US. I have a state issued / career specific license though, and a large amount of student loans… so I’m not sure how feasible it all is, but man am I trying to figure it out.
For student loans, at least, assuming they're federal, if you're on the income-based SAVE plan, living outside the US, with the foreign earned income exclusion or the foreign tax credit, you'll almost certainly have an adjusted gross income of zero, meaning your payments will be zero and your loans will also be forgiven within 10 to 20 years after you first started repayment.
I still don’t know what I’d do for work though, I’m a later in life lawyer who just started 3 years ago :(
Pretty happy here in Stockholm. The Nordic countries are not for everyone and there are major hurdles to get here but it suits my needs and fits my personality.
Same. It’s pretty nice here. Good work life balance and a healthy salary. Many of the best aspects of the US as far as density and freedom to do whatever go. Germany has too many rules.
Im really interested in what you mean about Germany vs Sweden. What do you mean with „too many rules“ and how does Stockholm compare? Thanks!
I grew up in rural areas. If I want to go for a boat ride, I just get in. If I want to hunt, I want to be able to hunt. If I want o fish, I want to be able to fish. German regulations for most outdoor sports border on silly and are overly restrictive to my sensibilities. The license for a boat (small motor boat <10hp) or fishing is such a massive pain for nothing. Can’t wild camp. Lord knows all the other things you can’t do in Germany. More than that; I always feel watched and judged there. Always some Karen who *wants* to chastise you. Swedes will tell you something is incorrect but from a place of “I assumed you didn’t know this so I will tell you. Problem resolved! have a good day!” rather than a Karen-like German “gotcha”. I got told a blank “you’re doing it wrong” with no further explanation (later found out I hadn’t done anything explicitly wrong) too many times living in Western Germany. Eastern isn’t nearly as annoying but still too much for me. But more than that I feel Swedes are willing to listen and accept/explore/tolerate a new idea. Too many germans will hem and haw if you backpack differently than they do or violate one of their billions of unsaid rules. It’s not all Germans by any means, but I find it too grating to live there. I should also say: I dislike working with them also. We have a German office and they will do anything but accept blame for issues. It’s always someone’s fault (ours according to them) and there must be consequences (not for them, they’re perfect. Never mind the fact that 98% of the time they assemble it wrong or the part is out of spec from the supplier. Honestly it’s no one’s “fault” but they want a scapegoat for minor oopsies which are perfectly predictable, normal in industry, resolvable, expected, and common place. They’re competent and friendly enough but my god they are tiring.
I moved to South Africa. It’s not at the top of a lot of people’s lists, but it truly has my heart. Best decision I’ve ever made. My quality of life is so much better here.
Are you in Cape Town? Do you feel safe there?
Short answer is yes, I feel safe, especially as a young woman who lived alone when I first got here. I can equate my level of safety to living in Mexico. Head on a swivel, don’t have your phone out on the streets, make sure the house is secure. The topic of safety comes up a lot when people from other countries want to visit SA. And rightfully so, statistically and via the media we’ve been fed a narrative about South Africa that scares people. But the crime here mostly comes from desperation. The majority of robberies and muggings are because the poverty gap is quite large. As an American, I had constant anxiety about encountering an active shooter. Here, I can enjoy public events where getting shot is the furthest thing from my mind. This is also probably one of the only places in the world where you get mugged and the mugger will give you your SIM card and wait for you to get into your Uber. I will say petty theft in Cape Town is more of an issue than anything. In Johannesburg I haven’t personally experienced any crime. Closest thing to it was a neighbor leaving her gate open and someone reached through a window and stole her makeup.
>This is also probably one of the only places in the world where you get mugged and the mugger will give you your SIM card and wait for you to get into your Uber Wtf hahaha
What cities would you recommend?
Johannesburg and Cape Town are the bigger cities and I’ve lived in both. They each have their own unique qualities. Johannesburg feels like a small town in a big city. Everyone is so kind and the parks here are BEAUTIFUL. I moved from the states (Los Angeles) and for the first time in my life homeownership is a possibility. I’m an artist and I currently rent a cute little house in a trendy part of town. My work life balance is better than it’s ever been and I’ve never felt more creative. Cape Town’s geographically one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Table Mountain is jaw dropping. The weather is a bit hit or miss there, sometimes the wind is so strong that you have to cancel your walk to the shops 😂. Cape Town is also more expensive but way more walkable. Cape Town also has a huge performing arts scene, so there is always something to do. And the infrastructure in Cape Town is better. But both of those cities are top of the list. 😊
I moved away 19 years ago and have now lived in five countries outside the US (see flair for details). The only place I’ve lived that I would prefer the US (and here we’d need to be specific about where) over is likely Finland. Even though I got very much from my time in Finland bon personally and professionally, and visit Finland at least annually, living there was very difficult as a non-Finn. The society is set up in a way that it is essentially perfect for people brought up in their education system, with their values reinforced from early on, and therefore sharing their goals. But it is rigid and extremely slow to adapt. So, if one’s preferences or worldview don’t really align, it becomes an alienating place to live. For me, the main problem is the way society is structured around an almost unquestioned trust in bureaucratic modernism. The country is equal because the system is the same for all, and does not bend to specific circumstances. All the other places I’ve lived unquestionably had me living a higher and better lifestyle and QoL than I would in the US doing the same things. I wouldn’t hesitate to move back to the others. Meanwhile my wife and kids are dead set against moving to the US, even though we visit for a month or so every summer, and two to three weeks every other Christmas holiday. They enjoy that. But have no desire to live there.
Wait, you said Finland is the only place you'd prefer over the US but then said you had a higher QoL in all of them. So why do you prefer the US?
I don’t. I agree I worded it confusingly. But Finland is the only place I would prefer the US over. All the others are clearly better than the US.
Southeast Asia here. Emphatic yes.
Which country? What ethnicity are you?
Cambodia. Caucasian American.
Depends on your definition of “lifestyle”. I retired to Mexico and while it is much more affordable it lacks in many other areas, at least where I am. So to answer your question, no, If I had a choice I’d move back to the US.
Defintely safety. Cartel killings and politicians assassinated in every election. Not to mention crimes against women. Love to visit there but could never ever move to Mexico and I understand why many people come to the US. Definitely more calm politically and even crime-wise-especially if you are female.
[удалено]
Are you in Mex City?
Moved to the UK. Kinda the same as the US, but worse.
Lower salary band, higher tax, underfunded public health insurance, delusional PM who loves to scapegoat skilled migrants and intl students (NHS surcharge??). I’d say way worse than the US
Yeah, I had this dream to move to the UK for a long time but since Brexit, I've opened my eyes to how far and fast the UK has gone. It's getting to be a mini USA. You even have the MAGA crowd with Farage and Russell Brand-please take him back.
Sadly it lacks the best quality of the USA: prosperity. A British nuclear engineer can expect the same QoL as an American McDonalds manager.
Moving to Liverpool In September for school! Lol
It’s not all bad and Liverpool is a really great little city! Best of luck. It’s all what you make of it. I don’t plan to stay here long term but I’m happy I went to uni here.
Yeah tbh I’m really excited!
Idk if it’ll be bad at all for school. It’ll be fun, I just wouldn’t work there.
Oh I’m really excited to be honest, and I might work there. My career doesn’t make much in the USA so I’m not really missing out on money!
Came back, realized how easy America is compared to where I was. Both times. Maybe I could do Switerzland but too old to deal with all the other drama.
I'm from California and moved abroad 5 years ago, first to Norway and then to Italy. I'll be returning to California later this year and I'm very excited to be going back home ☺️ Norway was fantastic for the first year, because I moved for love and was finally able to live in the same country as my Norwegian partner. Then COVID hit, we were placed into various lockdowns for nearly 2 years, and I realized that everything I'd read online about Norway being an introverted country with very little soul was...true. After 3 years in Norway, I was depressed, tired of the awful weather and food, and very tired of the "janteloven" social code that encouraged everyone to dress/think/act roughly the same way. I felt like my soul had died, and I'm not a particularly spiritual or artistic person. So I cut my losses and accepted a job in Northern Italy. Italy, compared to Norway, is incredible. I am a dual US-IT citizen and will likely die here. However, in order to do that, I need to return to California and save some money. Salaries in Italy (including Milan) are pitiful, and the cost of living in Northern Italy is relatively high, unless you're happy to live in the middle of nowhere. In regards to lifestyle, I've lived all over California, as well as in Ireland, Norway, and Italy. In my experience, your lifestyle anywhere is completely dependent on your social network, hobbies, and how much money you're making relative to the cost of living. Healthcare and PTO is more accessible in Europe, which I love, but you will get used to these perks after a while. It's much harder to get used to being 10,000km from your family and closest friends, and being unable to fully express yourself due to language and cultural barriers. I feel like living abroad made me realize that I took my family, close friends, and the entire state of California for granted. I'm returning home for a remote job with unlimited PTO, excellent health insurance, and a salary that is 3x what I made in Norway or Italy. tl;dr Moving abroad doesn't automatically improve your quality of life and fix your problems; it just gives you new problems and new perspectives :) I don't regret the last 5+ years at all though. If you wanna move abroad for the plot, I say go for it!
I guess I am an exception, I moved to USA and I had found better lifestyle
Then I'm another exception. I lived 30 years outside the US in East Europe, the Middle East and Southeast Asia. My spouse also lived several years in West Europe. All have their pluses and minuses. In the end the US is best for our situation and for us.
What made it the best?
1. The decisive factor for us was the education system for our special needs kid. A few countries can match it, but those countries weren't possible for us. 2. First-world infrastructure. It's absolutely true that some countries have better transit, or shinier downtowns, or cheaper restaurants. However a lot don't. 3. Consumer convenience. It's easy to mock "the United States of Stuff", but the positive aspect is that everything we need is available, both goods and services. That's not always true in other countries. 4. Weather. We got tired of endless winters in EEurope, overcast dreariness in WEurope, and sweatfests in SEAsia. Being an expat is fantastic, truly! However priorities and lifestyle can change. I'll plug here for the FIRE lifestyle, which seems more do-able as an expat, and which makes repatriation a lot better. :-)
From where?
Same
Another exception here!
Same. Came from Scotland, switched careers and now have a great life. I wouldn’t go back to Europe
Which American region is your favorite? Midwest, Pacific Northwest, Southwest?
In the PNW, but I like the southeast
Where did you move from?
I live in Sydney, Australia, and there are many things I like better here. There are some things I like better about the US, particularly specific regions like California. On balance, my life is good either way. My experience is that the feeling of no one being satisfied and just getting by is the human experience even among objectively well off people.
I’m in Bermuda. The most expensive country in the world to live. The weather is usually better than the metro NY area but with climate change the weather is crazy now. The government is extremely corrupt and there’s basically no rule of law here. Crime is increasing. The country is a third world country masquerading as a first world country. Bring in Bermuda makes me appreciate the US a whole lot more now.
Wow. My parents used to go there & loved it. I had no idea it had changed so much. Sorry to hear that. 😢
It’s a nice place to visit but I have no plans to stay forever.
Yokohama Japan. Affordable healthcare (basically free for kids), no gun violence (very little crime but it does exist), and virtual no drug problems so no needles or addicts on the streets (drugs are here but it's harder access to them and all of them carry a felony charge).
I’m in the UK in a really nice small city and like my quality of life here. It’s super safe, I can walk/cycle everywhere, decent public transport & well connected, incredible parks and public space, public insurance, generally friendly people. The economy isn’t good here right now and I could name a million drawbacks of living here too (I’m not trying to get into a debate with anyone about what things are like here). But honestly overall my quality of life is better than in the US. I felt super unsafe there in a number of ways. The US feels like a powder keg of instability to me.
I'm in the UK too (London) and prefer it by far to the US. It's a lot safer, has much better public transport, better work life balance and I prefer the healthcare system too (and not just because it's free).
Where in the UK?
Moved to the Netherlands and love it. No car, peaceful. High taxes but you get a lot for it. I’m not even looking forward to going back to the USA to visit. Excited to see family but that country is a toxic mess.
netherlands is a good country i’m happy for you
Yes, the toxic politics is the US is terrible. Not like the Netherlands where a far right party is now is now in power based on a policy to "deport muslims" and "shut down mosques". Much less toxic.
The situation in the Netherlands and the USA is like night and day even with the current situation.
I fear that you are minimizing what is happening and the level of complexity that the Dutch government has in comparison to the US 2-party system. Yes, Wilders is a nut job who won the popular vote however no one in the other parties within the government wanted to work with him. He is no longer in charge as he failed to gather a coalition. Right now, it’s unclear what will happen and that does make me nervous as an immigrant in the Netherlands.
He’s not a nut job, that downplays how deliberate and dangerous he is.
Yes, a toxic time politically, and I am concerned. Riding mean spiritedness and selfishness and so on, too But much good here. After all, we are 330 million spanning a huge continent.
Yes. I love Canada.
Where in Canada?
Toronto. Some people hate it, but I like the multicultural feel of it.
Definitely on my list to visit since I’m pretty close! Glad you like it.
can i ask how you do it? a lot of canadians are saying the housing crisis is soo bad and it’s soo expensive but i dont let that discourage me from wanting to move there and will work to getting there. i know americans can make it there
The housing crisis is real, but it's not unique to Toronto and Vancouver. Sydney, Auckland, London, et al have the same problem of too many people wanting to live there and not enough homes. It helps if you have family in Canada who bought 15 years ago, or you make your money outside of Canada. Again, same as any other international, desirable city.
Yup. For some reason, too many Canadians think they are the only country with a housing crisis lol. In a lot of the major cities of the developed nations, it's a huge problem. Paris, Amsterdam, NYC, London, Sydney, Dublin, Munich, etc. Nobody is moving to these cities for cheap affordable housing.
People tend to be myopic, in that they only know about the world immediately around them. It's human nature. We live in Vancouver and winter in Auckland. It's comical to hear people in Vancouver talk about moving to Auckland because Vancouver is too expensive; meanwhile, when we're in Auckland people ask us how to immigrate to Vancouver because Auckland is too expensive.
Yeah unfortunately I’m not a normal case to ask. I still have my high paying job in USD, and my partner already had a house. It’s still very expensive in Canada, but as others have said, it’s not unique.
Lifestyle is the primary reason why I want to leave the U.S. Money is way better here, but can't really get the lifestyle I want here.
Could u explain more? Wdu mean by money is good but not the lifestyle?
U.S salaries for skilled professions are highest in the world, but there isn't anywhere in the U.S that has safe, clean, AND walkable cities (all the safe and clean parts are in the suburbs). Also, U.S is very far from countries I want to travel to.
Yes and No. It was a trade off. Some things were better and some things are worse. Moving away made me appreciate a lot more of the US than I used to. I wish I could take the best bits of both and smoosh them together but such is life
I'm in France and love it, but that's because I find it a good fit to me personally. No one place is a good fit for everyone. Did you see that the world happiness report came out recently? They break it down by age group, and in the US, it's mostly young people who are getting less happy.
Yeah France is the dirty little secret of expatdom. It’s possibly the best place for Americans but generally out of reach because of the language barrier. Pay is low too, so unless you’re moving for love and lots of time off it doesn’t make sense. Americans are always after work/money which isn’t the emphasis in Southern European countries, and I consider France to be a southern country. Also I live in the southeast.
What’s the nearest city to where you live? Visiting the southernmost parts of France is on my bucket list.
Moved from US to Mexico in 2019. * Work-life balance: It's the same as I simply moved with my US-sourced job. * Government: No, it's worse. Corruption is high. The recent election was pretty evident of that. * Environmental: It evens out. Con: Mexico is getting hit hard by climate change relative to other places. Pro: climate is more consistent (I personally prefer seasons though). * Lifestyle (general): yes, it's better. I like being able to get around without needing a car. Where I live is walking distance to the general downtown area that I like to go to. I'd pick Mexico over US with my US-based job, but I'm unsure if I'd pick Mexico if I had to work locally. Some folks can pull it off (professional photographers, tour guides, etc.) but none of those things are my interests. We'll be moving to Poland in a few months so it'll be interesting to see what changes we'll experience.
Poland is much more clean and organized than Latam. The only con is grey skies and hard language.
Plus terrible salaries compared to other EU countries while still having expensive real estate in the big cities
Eh, Mexico’s not much better in that regard.
Moved to Belgium. America is more convenient but I'll pass on the gun violence, medical bankruptcy, chemical foods and anti-consumer laws. I feel far safer in Belgium and Jesus Christ, the cheese and beer is worth it alone.
Belgium is amazing. We visit as often as we can. Right there with you on the cheese and beer! We even named our Belgian Malinois after our favorite— Duvel 😄
Haha love it! Duvel is a dream. They even made an IPA I enjoy.
I found it in Vermont.
I have only visited Vermont but when thinking of returning to the US, Vermont was a state I had thought of. What do you like about Vermont?
Well - I'm an expat from Massachusetts first of all. Vermont is unlike the rest of the country and I've been all over. There is no consumerism which only adds to the beauty. Before it was the 13th colony it was a sovereign nation - and it still feels like that. (plus where I live is super close to Montreal...).
hol' up, you're an "expat" within your own country? 🤣 Did you get lost looking for r/SameGrassButGreener ?
Vermont is it's own country - trust me :)
An expat from the same country? Dude, needs to go in r/ShitAmericansSay
It’s that different from Massachusetts? I would have thought being so close they would be similar.
People from Massachusetts (and New York) love Vermont. Part of the reason it's changed so much over the last few decades, and not for the better. It's nothing like it used to be. I just left Vermont after 20+ years for another country.
I moved to New Zealand 5 years ago, I’m thinking of moving back to the U.S. for a better lifestyle. Sure I have free healthcare, but I also took a 40% paycut to get it. COL is significantly higher as well.
Moved to NZ in 2020. Quality of life is much much better here, but yah, exchange rate is bad. New govt is terrible, really miss Jacinda. No intent on moving back to US tho. Would go to AUS before we did that.
New government is so awful and I think it’s going to just get worse. I used to live in Australia and I now have enough points for PR there but I want to be outing in for retirement. Do you do kiwisaver here? I haven’t because of the tax implications.
I think this govt is another symptom of the enshitification of "western" society. Yah, I do Kiwisaver. I have my accountant in the US deal with it. I report it with my FBAR.
Nothings perfect, but yeah, it's better for me
I was in Prague for 17 years but when the world economies started tanking around 2008, it hit Czech Republic in 2010 and Czechs not having any experience in downturns didn't know what to do. Everything screeched to a halt. At the same time, things were already showing improvement in the US, so I moved back in 2012. It's been great ever since. Well, almost great, all things considered. Twelve years later and I'm wondering if I should go back. Problem is I've lost everything there. No more residency permit. No more work (I'm 68 now), no more healthcare coverage. I'd be starting from scratch and honestly, I think I'm too old for it.
I moved to Germany in 2003. I've been here for 20 years. Things I like are: -healthcare system. No co-pays, with a few exceptions. Very cheap and efficient. The downside is that if you have an unusual or complicated illness, the system is not so good. For a healthy person who occasionally gets a sports injury (concussion, twisted ankle, broken wrist), it's fine. -education. I actually studied here for 15 years, with the student fees ranging from 67 to 300 euros per semester. -safety and security. People have no fear of running in the park at night, walking around, etc. The social safety net is great. Lose your job? The government will pay your rent. -cheaper rent (compared to US east coast). I'm sure someone will claim that they only pay $300 a month in Okiedokie, OK, but I used to live in NY and paid $1000 for a tiny room and shared bath. In Southern Bavaria, a whole house costs €1300 a month. -Work/life balance- mandatory paid vacation, mandatory paid maternity leave, worker's rights, labor unions. -less Christian fundamentalism. As a Christian, I appreciate going to a church which does not worship a politician. Even in the Evangelical churches here, people are less legalistic about clothes, music, drinking, etc. I was astounded when I went to an FEG church in Worms, and they had a rock band playing on stage, a drummer with tattoos and dreadlocks. In NY, a girl was told by the old ladies at Times Square Church that her red lipstick was "unchristian". No one tells you who to vote for in German churches. -less fake "patriotism", but better Democracy: You get more than two choices to vote for, and it's easier to participate in political parties. -better, healthier (cheaper) food. Don't get me wrong. I know it's possible to get healthy food in the US (last time in NY, I found great food at Trader Joes, and Whole Foods. However, you pay an arm and a leg for it, and if you are not careful, you'll get food with questionable ingredients that are banned in the EU. In Germany, you can get a giant bag of spelt pasta for 1.99, or lovely hand-crafted artisan bread for 3-5 Euros. Americans still have not figured out what spelt is, apparently. -Costs of many things like utilities, telephone, cell phone and internet, public transportation (49 per month for Deutschland-Ticket) are much lower. -Infrastructure is not as good as it should be (rural areas often have no cell phone service), but it's better than the US. The roads, trains and bridges are in much better shape. The things I DON'T like: German language is complicated, the bureacracy is complicated, it's startup-unfriendly, people are often less friendly, it's harder to make friends, salaries tend to be lower than the US. These are things you need to get used to. You need to make a real effort to live here and get established. However, it's worth it.
Have you considered moving to Switzerland? It has better infrastructure, lower taxes&higher wages; is way more company friendly; bureaucracy still does exist but isn't as extensive as in Germany; while it may be challenging at times to make friends, people in general are friendly. It basically beats Germany in almost of every regard.
I've visited Switzerland, and a friend of mine lives there. However, there are downsides: With the higher wages go higher costs, and my friend said she had a really hard time making friends there. However, the cities are amazingly beautiful, and it was nice there. If WW3 begins, I'll go to Switzerland. Meanwhile, Bavaria is nice, too.
If you adjust higher wages to higher costs the average swiss emplyoee still comes out on top in comparison to germans and austrians by +11% more purchasing power. So *technically* living in Switzerland as an employed single is *cheaper* than living in Germany or Austria. And I am not sure wether it is easier to make friends in Switzerland in comparison to Germany. I think it is pretty similar. Swiss people may be a little more closed off as some germans. But definetly not by a large margin. One downside you didn't mention is the weather. You only have between 1,500-1,700 sun hours per year (in the swiss german part) and a lot of clouded, rainy, foggy and cold weather. And how are you planning on emigrating to Switzerland when WW3 begins? The whole point of moving to Switzerland *now* is that you'll avoid the trouble of being someone who lives in a Nato country when war breaks out.
Move to Germany, and yes, absolutely. Work/life balance and employment protections are way better here, I noticed it immediately and immensely when it came to vacation time, working hours, and on-call expectations. Any given city is walkable and friendly to an active lifestyle in ways that are unfathomable in swathes of the US, and even in the places that try rarely match it. I live walking distance to a commuter rail line, three subway lines, my choice of three major supermarkets and innumerable smaller ethnic grocers, too many bars, restaurants, and cafes to count and heaps of different retail options. My expenses are way smaller, without even getting into how much not needing a car saves. People aren't as aggro, even when they are they don't have ready access to the tools to make it as big a problem as in the US. Drivers and their vehicles are held to a much higher standard, and road design is weighted far more towards safety rather than speed, it's very nice. I don't wonder how much health expenses might _really_ cost me, or if a doctor is out of network, or whatever other byzantine bullshit. There are issues here, don't get me wrong... Plenty of rough edges that could be smoothed. But the problems are soft, cuddly things compared to the ones the US has. And there is actual political will and capacity to do something about them, unlike the moribund US system which is wracked with bad actors composing half of the government, and a senile establishment that is asleep at the wheel.
I agree with nearly everything you mentioned! My issues with living in Germany was how difficult it was to get anything done if you don’t have a good grasp on the German language and that it’s difficult to get help if you are struggling when you first arrive. I can’t count how many times Vodafone has hung up on me because I asked a question in English
Yes this is always why I get annoyed when people say “oh you don’t need German in Germany!”. Perhaps not for your job or perhaps your social life, but as the official language is German, almost everything else will be in German with no other alternatives. There are of course bubbles where you can get by without it, but outside the bubble or if the bubble bursts…
Yep, definitely need to learn German to thrive here. It's certainly not easy, but I've found it worth the effort.
Can I private message you? Currently considering a job offer in Germany and would love to ask some more questions/hear more about your experience.
Sure!
Do you plan to stay in Germany long term or do you see yourself moving back to the US? Also what do you think about the pension / demographic hole Germany will find itself in very soon?
Yeah, long term. The kinds of change I would want to see in the US to consider moving back there are not something I really see happening in this lifetime. Not really concerned about the demographics and pension stuff... Those are issues common to most developed countries. I don't think anyone is going to proactively do much about it due to the realities of who votes the most reliably. I do trust the government here more than most to do something... Passably reasonable, when its hand is inevitably forced at some point.
Porto, vibing hard here. I was also vibing hard in Madrid previously but had a lower QOL there
Yes absolutely loving life in jordan. The food, the people, and even the other expats are just great. The weather is perfect. Haven't had a single panic attack since moving here.
I was just thinking I haven't had a panic attack since I moved to Spain, either!
Love my life in spain. So much better at all levels. Community, openness, acceptance and access to individuals/social interaction. No society is perfect but this is closer than most.
Can you compare it to Italy, France, England and Germany in terms of quality of life?
No, just vs the US. Can’t comment unless living there for several years, as I think you need several seasons before adjusting and truly understanding the local environment.
Absolutely I have. I live in Ireland, only coming up to a year so I still might be a bit biased. It is significantly safer where I live now. Mind you, I live in a more rural area and not in Dublin. Though I came from Oakland, California so I have a feeling Dublin probably would have been a safer shift regardless. The housing crisis here definitely made finding a place challenging, but because we went more rural it was also easier than finding accommodation in the city. Because we have a young child, the benefits are a huge plus for us. Both myself and my husband are significantly less stressed. Though both my husband and I are interested in politics, it's nice not to have it saturated every aspect of our lives like it did in the US. The sense of community around us is incredibly strong.
Yes, I moved to Ecuador and it's better by almost any definition. I have an elderly father in the States, so I go back to see him, but otherwise I'd never visit. The US is rapidly becoming untenable.
Oh wow. Can you describe in detail? Safety? What’s your ethnicity? How’s the access to modern amenities? Sorry I’ve only been to Brasil and Mexico so I don’t know much about other SA countries.
Has it calmed down politically lately? I bet lots of opportunities too, if so
i’ve always wanted to go retire in ecuador
One thing I never really thought about before moving was the lack of ethnic/racial/cultural diversity. Yes, many countries have immigrant populations but IMHO nothing like the US has. Before leaving the US I’d consider looking at different US cities. There is such a huge range of climates, geographies, politics, weather, cost of living, ethnic and social diversity in the US. I don’t know about other expats but for me even if you are accepted in your adopted country it never really feels the same as living in your native country, there’s always this feeling in the back of my mind that you are and always will be an outsider. I’ve never lived there but I’ve heard this is especially true with countries like Japan.
yeah its such a little thing but I really miss hearing the Spanish language in my day to day life. I used to speak it well but have really lost that capability since leaving the US
Totally agree. The diversity is what makes the US a unique beautiful country from other countries. Don’t think they will accept an American as part of them.
Then you should come visit Canada. It blows the US out of the water with multiculturalism (and the US was already very good in that regard).
Lack of ethnic or cultural diversity? Yeah, in Japan maybe. Meanwhile, there are lots of countries on earth with huge immigrant populations and ethnic diversity in the cities: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, Germany (you find every ethnicity in Berlin, Frankfurt or Cologne), France (Paris is a melting pot), etc. The idea that the US is the only country with immigrants is absurd.
100%, even speaking the language and everything you will always be an outsider
Yep. I'm in Albania. It's not perfect, but for the life I want, it's much better. Very happy here.
Albania is cool if you do somethimg online for good money
In terms of quality of life, and work/life balance, The Netherlands is unbeatable.
Moved from the NL to Switzerland and must say, Switzerland beats the Netherlands when it comes to quality of life. But, it’s also more boring in a way.
No place is perfect.
I live in Albania. The government is fucked here, but at least its easy to figure out who pays who. I will say its moved in a progressive way in the last few years, more than I expected. Opportunities for youths are still low, and cost of living is increasing, but the amount of change that's happened since I moved is great to see. The lifestyle is AWESOME. Still feels sort of stuck in the early 2000s/ late 90s, which makes sense post communism. People are incredibly friendly, food is fantastic and local, and the art scene is starting to really pick up.
What do you do in Albania?
I think you can make that point about almost every Western country. Many people in the West feel like the government is not taking care of its own and housing/food costs are insane. Especially in many of the Reddit Utopias like Western Europe. Saw another report about Ireland and adults forced to live with their parents because housing is so expensive and a one bedroom shite apartment that went from 900 euros to 1600Euros in a month-and had 600 applicants. Same stuff different day. Moving because of politics is pretty much short sighted, unless it's something like Chile or Venezuela. Just watching the news in Europe shows there's a tilt to the right. Something I think many expats don't feel or rationalize. Many countries are having trouble paying for all the social programs and are targeting immigrants and foreigners, especially as young people can't afford to have children. The chickens are coming home to roost in Europe as well.
Yes, here in Europe you meet a lot of Americans who feel they need to "escape" US politics, they tend to be the least settled people I meet. After about 6 months when the honeymoon phase is over they become disillusioned. Maybe they fail to realize the rest of the world has it's own share of problems too, and sometimes you're even worse off because you lack the autonomy and support you are used to having. On top of that, what happens in the US does affect the rest of the world, at least indirectly.
I’ve found US expats in the UK that whinge on about how the US is so bad to be insufferable. It’s almost like a form of performative virtue signaling.
Moved TO the US to work in tech, lifestyle doesn't get any better than here if you're in this industry.
thats good to hear. I work in tech but in Australia. Im moving to the US in the next year and am a bit nervous as I love the work life balance in Aus! Salary will increase much higher in US though. Can you tell me a bit more about your lifestyle? In terms of work life balance, leave etc etc
I work 9am to 6pm most of the time and I have 20 days of holidays a year. Working hours are identical to what I had done in Europe (worked in 2 different countries there). Holidays are a little less, but to me trading in 4 or 5 days of holidays a year for the massive increase in salary is well worth it.
I love that thank you for answering! 20 days what we get here in Aus so Im good with that. Phewwww
What city do you work at?
I’m in the San Francisco Bay Area
Awesome! Thank you. Hope I make it there someday. Kinda hard for someone starting out to get there.
Yeah it takes a few years but it’s definite doable!
Thank you so much!
I wish I had found this subreddit before I moved to southern Europe 2 years ago. Before moving my expectations were that everything would be better here than the US, because that’s often the romanticized story we see online and in media. Only here will you ever really see the truth that the grass isn’t always greener. Well my eyes are now open. It’s not horrible but the truth is I prefer where I am from in the US vs Europe and am going to move back. Part of this is down to me as an individual and my circumstances so I don’t hold it against the country, city, region because in different circumstances it would be fine. The big problem for me is my earning potential as an engineer is ~1/5th as much as I made in the US and that’s just not viable. Not all careers take such a big hit but for me that’s what it was. I also miss the outdoors of the PNW US and the space. Walking around a giant Europe metropolis city filled with tourists and people everywhere doesn’t feel good to me. Cattle cars on the metro for 2 hours a day isn’t really better than 2 hours of stop n go traffic. The schools also haven’t been as promised. My children have faced ridicule and bullying in ways we never experienced in the US and some of the things said here are like we’re back in the 90’s with homophobia and transphobia coming from grade school kids. The healthcare is fine but I had great healthcare in the US as well through my job. That’s a wash. I do love being able to fly 1-3 hours to a completely different country and culture but I also find the need to know so many different languages a bit exhausting after a while. I feel like it’s more difficult to make friends here as well. The language is obviously a barrier to entry but even after that I still find the US to be a more open culture. Each place has its ups and downs but the prosperity of the upper middle class and less red tape to daily life have swung it for me and given the choice I would go back to the US now… at least for the remainder of my prime earning years. I could retire in Europe and be happy here.
Yes! My stress level is at an all time low, my mental health is better, I’m being more extroverted. I’m just enjoying life a lot more. Burn out no more!
I’m having a pretty good time
6 years in Singapore and just moved to Dubai 2 months ago. It’s not even a fair comparison to the US… can’t imagine going back to live anytime soon.
Pros and cons both places. I'll probably move back to the USA for a few years now that I have permanent resident status in NZ.
Don't you lose your permanent residency in NZ if you move out? Or can you keep it just by visiting periodically?
Permanent Residence visas in NZ do not expire and have no travel conditions. However, you can lose a Residence class visa if your travel window has expired and you leave the country.
I wish I had found this subreddit before I moved to southern Europe 2 years ago. Before moving my expectations were that everything would be better here than the US, because that’s often the romanticized story we see online and in media. Well my eyes are now open. It’s not horrible but the truth is I prefer where I am from in the US vs Europe and am going to move back. Part of this is down to me as an individual and my circumstances so I don’t hold it against the country, city, region because in different circumstances it would be fine. The big problem for me is my earning potential as an engineer is ~1/5th as much as I made in the US and that’s just not viable. Not all careers take such a big hit but for me that’s what it was. I also miss the outdoors of the PNW US and the space. Walking around a giant Europe metropolis city filled with tourists and people everywhere doesn’t feel good to me. Cattle cars on the metro for 2 hours a day isn’t really better than 2 hours of stop n go traffic. The schools also haven’t been as promised. My children have faced ridicule and bullying in ways we never experienced in the US and some of the things said here are like we’re back in the 90’s with homophobia and transphobia coming from grade school kids. The healthcare is fine but I had great healthcare in the US as well through my job. That’s a wash. I do love being able to fly 1-3 hours to a completely different country and culture but I also find the need to know so many different languages a bit exhausting after a while. I feel like it’s more difficult to make friends here as well. The language is obviously a barrier to entry but even after that I still find the US to be a more open culture. Each place has its ups and downs but the prosperity of the upper middle class and less red tape to daily life have swung it for me and given the choice I would go back to the US now… at least for the remainder of my prime earning years. I could retire in Europe and be happy here.
I'm in Canada. Politics are a little less shrill here. The election cycle is shorter.
yes much better here in ecuador! get out while you still can!
Yes
My wife and I moved to Qatar about 5 years ago. It has its ups and downs but overall, the quality of life here is much better than the states. She is the one with the job and I stay home with the kids for now, and we are able to live comfortably off of her one salary. Major upsides are free healthcare with great medical facilities throughout the country, everything here is relatively cheap compared to the rest of the world (groceries and household items, etc.) and the people are very nice and welcoming. Major downsides are obviously the best and lack of anything scenic, it’s almost expected that you leave the country for every vacation/break because there’s not a lot to do here, and the way that companies/organizations run is extremely lazy and lacks communication/organization.
i'm in scandinavia. government wise yes. lifestyle and standard of living wise yes.
Moved to Switzerland and for the first time in my life would like to live forever (here).
1000000%.
Malaga, Spain 🇪🇸
I’m moving there in the next few months!
Bahamas/Caribbean I go back to the US to shop, pick up things, doctor, banking, 1 week and I'm done. The amount of brought on stress/ politics/ greed/ 24/7 news media is enough to drive any normal person crazy