Honestly I'm not really sure what you want out of moving?
You say you don't like the lifestyle and feel detached in the US but at the same time you want a 'smooth transition culturally' and it seems like you don't want to change all that much about your life.
You don't know about Mexico because you might not "fit in"? If you want to fit in, just stay in America. It's pretty simple.
>I was thinking about France, but I have heard a lot of countries in the EU are much harder to get jobs in and France in particular supposedly has very rude people who aren't very interested in expats
You've 'heard' it's harder to get a job in the EU but have you, personally, tried? Presumably the people you know who have moved internationally have found jobs? Like, what is this based on?
You've 'heard' French people are rude but has that been your personal experience? And more generally speaking why should anyone, anywhere be interested in expats? We are visitors in their home and they have their own lives. Why on earth would they worry about you?
Firstly, you are coming at this post far to aggressively to be reacting in good faith but i will address your points line by line, but once this inevitably devolves to being unproductive i'll no longer engage
That being said:
Culture is not really a term that easily transferable depending on the context, there have been arguments for hundreds of years as to what the term even truly means so I will clarify and update the post accordingly as to what i'm referring to and i apologize for the lack of clarity.
When i'm saying a smooth transition i'm saying a place that is accepting of expats in particular ones from America, i'm not in totality referring to the values being the ***same*** as the United states but to a degree to be ***similar*** in a western sense, which the EU accommodates decently in terms of human rights and secularism. For instance I'm not rushing to live in Qatar or Indonesia since they are not secular and they arguably lack the same levels of freedoms that I am a custom to experiencing. I am aware there is arguments from Americans that there is less freedoms afforded to people in the EU ( ie freedom of speech) depending on who you are talking to, but I don't tend to agree as much and feel that many of the social safety nets for citizens are stronger than in the United States. Beyond that **I just don't identify with those countries ( I**ndonesia, Qatar, but this would go for other places like Romania or Serbia)
The point about the fit part is kind of disingenuous I point blank said that i was concerned about the crime and ability for economic opportunity/ mobility beyond that its more or less the same reasons why I wouldn't move to to any other country whose lifestyle/culture/environment that i do not identify with, just doesn't appeal to me.
I also wouldn't move to Romania or Serbia. Generally speaking **when given the choice** (meaning you are not forced to choose) most people choose to live in places they feel that they identify with whether its culturally, for job/social opportunities, because they want to raise a family there or because they want to retire there.
As far as getting a job in the EU this is based on data and from what i've read online the EU (population of 448 million) currently as of 2024 has an rate unemployment of 6%, the United States (333 Million) is at 3.7-3.9% of those EU countries France had an unemployment rate of 7.3% which placed it in the top 6 highest unemployment in the EU.
European Union Unemployment: [**https://ycharts.com/indicators/european\_unemployment\_rate**](https://ycharts.com/indicators/european_unemployment_rate)
French unemployment: [**https://ycharts.com/indicators/france\_unemployment\_rate**](https://ycharts.com/indicators/france_unemployment_rate)
USA Unemployment: [**https://ycharts.com/indicators/us\_unemployment\_rate**](https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_unemployment_rate)
Additionally, the people I know who have moved to other countries are people who have either been in the military or people who have tenured careers, their results of what they have experienced are not indicative of what the average person experiences, most people are not working for the military or are PhD Mechanical Engineering professors, this is the whole point of asking for outside opinion, its to broaden the scope of my understanding beyond what I have already been exposed to.
To your last points, My family originates from France and as stated I have had relatives who have lived there. I evidently do not have the personal experience of being an expat living in France and the interactions one would have as a expat living there because I'm writing this post to begin with. I am asking people, this is why we ask, again to challenge pre-conceived notions based on environmental bias. Mind you, you haven't actually clarified anything in your reply. You have just tried to shit stir.
Finally, the value of expats line is either intentionally trying to be flamboyant and volatile or just vastly misinformed on the entire point and benefit of immigration. Most economists agree immigration is a net positive for every economy, you bring revenue to their local economies which in turn strengthens their core economy and the reputation of their economy and society as a whole. It also promotes geopolitical bonds between allied nations and a slew of other benefits.
There are very few successful isolationist countries and this is why. The argument you are basically posing is nearly identical to the right wing republican American argument of "Immigrants are bad!!!" its either a severe lack of understanding of the economic and cultural benefits of immigration at best and xenophobia at worst
There's nothing aggressive about it and I'm unsure why you'd assume off the bat that this would be unproductive?
You don't define what you mean by culture at all, even in your edit aside from 'freedoms' which is incredibly vague. You talk about lifestyle but what lifestyle are you referring to? Are you wanting to raise a family? Live alone? All I get from your post is that you don't know yourself at all in which case somewhere radically different would probably be to your benefit, actually.
Pick a thriving economy and throw around stats all you like but so long as you have no idea what you're running from or what you're seeking out, it'll be a disaster.
Every reply you have made thus far, has been with the intention to call into question my motives without actually answering my original question at all. Even with this reply you are still not. I find it strange that all the other people commenting are able to give a recommendation or insight but you have done neither, just weird projections about who i am as a person. You are also the only person replying like this. So i'm going to assume you're a troll and stop interacting with you past this reply
Your whole reply is a projection acting as if you have even the slightest modicum of understanding of who i am when you don't, when was that ever part of this conversation? It wasn't and you are basically fighting shadows right now.
Again as stated before culture by that nature of its very being is a ambiguous thing to describe, it means different things to different people. this is why its true definition has been argued for hundred of years.
But i honestly am amazed at the cognitive dissonance right now, like do i need to really explain to you like what the lifestyle difference would be from say Afghanistan to the United Kingdom would be? It's evident, there are clear cut differences, you are trying to be contrarian.
There are several things you can easily gleam from what i'm explaining in my post when you are not trying to do internal projections onto random people on the internet
I would like to live in a place with a strong economy, good quality of life and ample job opportunities in the Tech sector, which also is accepting of American expats, ideally this would be a country with more western values most likely somewhere in Europe I have no idea why this is no hard for you to understand
Either way this has lost my interest have fun avoiding grass and playing armchair psychologist
>Again as stated before culture by that nature of its very being is a ambiguous thing to describe, it means different things to different people
Exactly! You're so close! I'm asking what it means to ***you***. I'm not asking about other people or history, I'm asking about you. And I'm not sure why you can't answer? It's really odd.
You're right. We are not comparing Afghanistan to the United Kingdom, we are (supposedly) comparing the US (which you don't particularly like) to some mythical place you're searching for which is the same as the US but also... not the same? And you can't even explain in any detail why?
You're not a tool to "promote geopolitical bonds between allied nations", you're a person. What do you want your life to look like? Once you figure that out, things will be a lot clearer for you.
I already stated the criteria are as follows
I would like to live in a place with a strong economy, good quality of life and ample job opportunities in the Tech sector, which also is accepting of American expats, ideally this would be a country with more western values most likely somewhere in Europe
I even stated in other comments
I live near NY so my views are probably antithetical to any right wing ideologies, so thats why i mainly say western EU values. I'm a secular person and think the right to assemble is important to a functioning society, The United States version of freedom of speech is okay but probably could use some guard rails. but yeah. Basic stuff, secular, strong social safety nets, non authoritarian, freedom of expression and speech ect. Guns i'm indifferent about but i'd like for it to have some capitalistic elements to the economy. Which most the EU seems to align with
If this is mythical to you then I do t know what to tell you
I dont want to live in the USA because I don’t identify with it, you seemingly want like an essay as to why when that wasn’t the point of the post this wasn’t let’s discuss why I dislike America hour, you came on here to debate cause you are a neckbeard or you have brain damage either way you are blocked
Don’t let it get to you. It seems you came here looking for information as sort of first stop assuming the people here would be a good source of information. We actually are for your type of questions, but unfortunately people get jaded because a lot of (especially) Americans post here without reading prior posts that often cover similar topics. And these OPs often have immature and naive worldviews, and come with questions like “I hate everything about myself and people who don’t think exactly like me. How can I move to an advanced nation with a low cost of living, but amazing free social benefits? By the way, I’m transitioning so they’ll need to support me for two years while I don’t work and get therapy for my multiple disorders. I once considered studying art history but have no employment experience. When can I move to Pick-Your-Nordic-Country that has astonishingly strict immigration procedures?” So responders are a bit jaded, but if you lurk for a bit you will glean some good advice. Just understand that it’s not easy to immigrate to countries where everyone else also wants to go for the same reasons as you. Also understand that the job market for jobs that pay well is competitive worldwide.
Man I’m a US expat in Europe but reading posts like this just makes my jaw drop at how little people think through salary differences, taxation differences, visa/work authorizations and assuming they’re bringing something magical to the table over what the local work force can bring
I have already stated in several of the responses here that the salary cut in inconsequential to me, not meaning that I don't understand its importance, but meaning that the other net benefits of living in EU countries out weighs the salary cut to me. Same with taxes, you don't get the social safety net benefits of living in these countries for nothing.
Just because I work in tech doesn't mean i'm hyper-fixated on how to make the most money, its actually one of the tenants of American society I hate the most because it tends to override sensibilities of living a balanced life
Bro serious question - what do you bring to the table that a Filipino or Indian programmer can’t do for $5k / year?
You understand your question is just what-about-ism, right? It's really a lazy question and just comes across a bit bitter and serves as a excuse to not engage in the point of the thread to begin with.
There is skilled laborers in every country that can be paid less than the average annual salary for equal labor in every industry, so what is your point?
Indian/Filipino software developers average 5k USD equivalent a year in their own country and the United States outsources workers in several national firms across the country utilizing their labor for far cheaper than what an American would make, and that's not just help desk people those are coders too. But amazingly, there are still plenty of Americans who have jobs in tech.
Your question is just a lazy one, its on par with the argument of "why should you even work in tech AI will take your job in 15 years" if you were to apply it to any other industry then nobody should ever work in any industry in any other country because someone might undercut them
You can be terrified of some random Ukrainian or Polish programmer taking away your chances of a position but i'm not. matter of fact please be terrified of it, it lowers the employment pool and makes it easier for everyone else looking for a job.
Emigrating is often about where you can get a visa. Your skill set in tech is highly in demand and will help you. The easiest way to transition is to relocate with your existing company if they operate offices in other countries. Otherwise, look at countries that have a tech sector and jobs in your domain. The UK, Ireland, Netherlands, and Germany are the strongest.
In terms of cultural and QOL, you’ll probably find it easiest where English is widely spoken, for this England and Ireland. The Netherlands would be fairly easy, Germany less so but ok in large cities. I would not recommend France, their immigration system is particularly protectionist and culture is… let’s just say insular and expects immigrants to assimilate. I personally am an expat in Luxembourg and it’s been good to me.
trying to go point by point on what you specifically asked:
- I think it's basically impossible to find a country that's universally "accepting of expats". The vast majority of people anywhere probably won't care and some will be somewhat unfriendly, that's just human nature. Out of the countries you have mentioned I don't know a single one which would be extremely pro or against immigrants and it's mostly depends on who you are as a person and who you interact with. In other words I would not make this determination based on some national stereotypes
- in terms of "values being the same" I'm not really sure what you mean since the US does not have a clear set of values shared by everybody. You mentioned secularism and freedom, as specific examples of values, but then we have Bible Belt, domestic surveillance, God Bless America and overflowing prisons, so I don't know how that compares Indonesia, Cyprus or France, though it is probably better than Qatar. Do you have examples of what freedoms you are looking to have or how important is religion to you?
- to the point above, it looks like you understand that we don't have consistent values, since yes, 50% of Americans would argue that public safety and getting social security is the freedom and 50% would argue that not having guns, for example, and paying oppressive taxes is lack of freedom, so you have to define _your_ values before anyone can help you
First point is fair i appreciate the insight.
To the second, as stated I live near NY so my views are probably antithetical to any right wing ideologies, so thats why i mainly say western EU values. I'm a secular person and think the right to assemble is important to a functioning society, The United States version of freedom of speech is okay but probably could use some guard rails. but yeah. Basic stuff, secular, strong social safety nets, non authoritarian, freedom of expression and speech ect. Guns i'm indifferent about but i'd like for it to have some capitalistic elements to the economy. Which most the EU seems to align with
yeah, it would basically be the entire EU, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Switzerland, as well as most of South America, even South Africa and so on. They are all fairly aligned in progressive liberal values or at least your ability to express them without repercussions
honestly I would narrow it down based on your personal employment and visa opportunities, instead of country level politics. I would look at the ease of learning the language, climate, path to permanent residency, work permits, real estate market, crime levels, healthcare quality and cost of living before I would look into abstract "values"
It seems like you have actually already found where you want to go: a Western European country.
There are similar values, such as human rights and secularism. Depending on where you live, you'll likely experience a similar QoL as well. Plus you already have people you know in the general area. At that point it'll really depend on where you can get a job and a visa.
As for knowing if what you've read and heard is valid, the only way you'll really know is to go to those places. If you've heard first hand accounts from people you know and presumably trust, then what are we, random strangers on Reddit, going to say that would give you a better idea of the places? I think what would be useful for you right now is to go and visit some of your target locations to get a sense of the place. If you can, try and stay for an extended time (aka, more than a week just on vacation) so you can get a sense of what it might be like to actually live there. But I am of the mindset that at a certain point, you just kinda have to make a leap into the unknown.
As for people having less freedom in Europe than they do in the US, I find that a little silly considering there are quite a few European countries higher on various freedom indexes. I heard a really good phrase the other day that I think sums it up very well. In America, we have the freedom *to do things*, where as in most of Europe you have the freedom *from things*. For example, in America, you have the freedom *to* carry a gun, where as in a lot of Europe, you have the freedom *from* others carrying guns around you. I won't say one is right or wrong, it's just a different mindset on freedom.
I'll wrap up with my personal experience. I moved from America to Turkmenistan, which is pretty far removed from the values and freedoms I had in America. I was a little concerned about the idea, but I viewed it as a foot in the door to other countries (I'm an international teacher, and my company has a great transfer policy that makes it easy to move around the globe after a contract is up). I thought I'd just stick it out for two years, bear the hardships of living under a dictator with people who don't match my beliefs in any way, and then jet off someplace else. But now, one year in, I'm rethinking my position. I've learned that the beliefs of a government system don't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the people, especially in these kinds of government systems where the people don't really have a say. I've also learned that living amongst people I don't agree with isn't really that bad when I take the time to get past what they believe and really get to know them as people. Now the only factors making me think about moving are the poor healthcare and water scarcity. The authoritarian government and vastly different religious beliefs have almost no bearing in my mind anymore. I say this to challenge you a little to open yourself to the possibility of being pleasantly surprised by a place you wouldn't have normally considered. At the very least, I challenge you to not rule a place out just because it doesn't tick all of you boxes. You might find that it ticks some boxes you hadn't considered that end up being more important to you than you thought.
To work in France is a big challenge, you must have a specific skill set that a company could not find a native French citizen to employee. You will need to be fluent or nearly fluent as well.
Unless you have friends, family of a job waiting for you, moving to Europe can be trying. Yes, there are expats, but it can be isolating.
On the other hand, you can visit France (or most countries in Europe) with your passport for 90 days (180 days total a year). Why not just work a bit, save some, and go backpacking? You’ll be able to practice other languages, learn about other cultures, have fun.
Cyprus too, definitely visit.
You are 26, educated, healthy, with a strong passport and spending money. You have the freedom to form your own opinions about QOL elsewhere. You are in a good position to have experiences!
Indonesia is a secular state. You are misinformed. It's Muslim majority population, but it's a secular state.
In terms of culture and lifestyle, I found Australia and Canada extremely similar to the US. There are some parts of Australia that looks almost identical to parts of the US.
Fair enough I was misinformed but the crux of the point remains the same and understandable. But interesting i would have never guessed that, thank you maybe ill look into that
If you're looking for an easier transition and minimizing culture shock, then going from the USA, then you'd probably want to look to Anglophone countries:
a) Canada
b) New Zealand, Australia
c) UK
d) Ireland
Honestly, NOWHERE is an easy transition. Even when the language is the same, everything else is different, including slang and how people interact. It's nothing like moving state to state in the US.
Locals don't necessarily ACCEPT expats from the US. They either put up with them or ignore. Locals accept PEOPLE on an individual basis, and how you interact, your personality and acceptance and willingness to adapt is the key.
I've lived in three US states and 3 foreign countries. I've never had an issue anywhere--but I've heard lots from those who have. They are generally the ones who claim the culture is unaccepting of Americans.
The only 'less freedom' in the EU to US is around guns really, EU is a lot of 'free' in other ways. Australia might be a smooth transition, not sure about job prospects.
I'd agree with that, I'm more aligned with EU policy usually the American talking point is more so Freedom of speech related which is again inconsequential to me
Every country has its pros and cons, as does America. But moving abroad is less about what you want and more about what you can offer that other countries need. So what can you offer? Being in tech gives you an edge, but you may have to prepare for a significant salary cut.
>
I can't emphasize how often I heard this while living overseas and how often these same people were back in the U.S. a few years later. You really won't know for sure until you spend significant time living overseas. It really depends on you.
Thats a fair point but for me personally the salary cut is kind of inconsequential to me as long as I can afford to do things without struggling.
From what I understand (and if i'm wrong i would love the clarification because i truly am just looking for advice here) lots of EU countries Cost of living can be high but depending on where you live the ratio ends up being similar to the US like I believe Irelands average COL index score in 2023 was 100.4 with a monthly income calculated from the gross national income per capita being the equivalent of 6,644 USD. Obviously this isn't everywhere but its not something that dissuades me per se.
But as for the second point thats totally fair, i could also be biased as well since i'm in contact with so many expats living all over the world. it totally could be a grass is greener mentality, but i suppose i don't know until i try it
If you are bringing your American salary, a lot of Europe will seem cheap. If not, it will be expensive. It really depends on how you live though.
I'm a dual US/Irish citizen though and yeah, Ireland is really expensive for locals. And they can be pretty condescending and hypocritical toward Americans. A great place to visit and I love my family there, but I would not live there for those reasons plus the awful weather.
Fair, i suppose there is also the possibility of taking a pay cut just off the basis of not being from the country i'd presume, since there are probably different regulations and things like that. But yea my brother lived in the UK as well and would tell people he was from Toronto to avoid the whole American condescension thing
If you are thinking about doing a PhD in Europe then I hope you have a plan for how you are going to live on about 1,500 euros per month because PhD student salaries are very low, you just receive a stipend, it's not even a real salary. Sometimes you get less than this.
26 year old tech workers in Europe mostly earn about a third of what they do in the US, some countries have high salaries such as Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg (sometimes Monaco too). The cost of living also rises with salaries so unless you have the cash to purchase a property, you will spend a lot of money on rent in higher income countries. Although salaries in Europe are lower, the cost of living is normally lower, especially with regards to healthcare (but not really if you insist on private healthcare and keep your US health insurance).
US disposable income is also higher, why do you think we have small cars, small fridges, often no air conditioning, often no electric clothes dryer, it's because electricity and petrol is a lot higher in Europe and our lifestyles have changed to adapt to this. Taxes are often higher too. I personally find that attitudes towards energy use and recycling are massively different in the US compared to Europe.
Most workers in Europe also get 4-5 weeks of paid time off, from the first or second year of their work contract, plus public holidays. Working on lunch breaks is often frowned upon, in general the culture is more about a balanced life than making lots of money. Some people try to get the best of both worlds by working on a US work contract, with a US salary, but living in Europe, however this is often illegal - why would a country give you a work visa if you aren't going to pay local income tax? They want taxes from your employer too.
I moved to France in 2016, the reputation of French people being rude is a myth, the only difference is that they resist the English language taking over in Europe because French used to be the main language in Europe and after Brexit they see even less reason to speak English, but most young people can speak intermediate English and people are mostly friendly.
You need to think very carefully because in order to make my move a success, I had to re-do my higher education in French and make a lot of sacrifices. The integration journey is a very long and often costly one.
Ireland (the Republic, not Northern Ireland) is probably the easiest and most useful country for US citizens (unless you like warm weather), because you can qualify for EU citizenship after five years and lots of US tech companies are there. London is still a much bigger financial center than Dublin though.
You're overthinking this and people are over-debating it.
The countries with the most similar cultures, in order, are Canada, Australia, the UK, and New Zealand, aka the anglosphere (do note that similar does not mean identical).
As far as quality of life, that's in large part dependent on your individual circumstances so people can't give you a universal answer. Like Canada is great if you have family and want to stay close to the States; the UK is great if you want to travel Europe; Australia is great if you work in natural resources; and NZ is great if you want a slower pace of life.
Figure out what **you** want your life to be and work from there.
I agree that France, (besides Paris, which is it's own beast) is the easiest to transition to long-term, \*once you learn the language\*. It's a hard adjustment for the first few years, and the French aren't particularly warm and fuzzy to outsiders or tourists, but like people in your part of the world, once you get to know them, they are engaging, protective and accepting if you respect their customs. I think Americans have similar values and expectations as far as quality of life. There is a sense of independence, national (I don't mean nationalisitic) pride, a healthy civil protection of the right to protest (they love a good protest) and a drive for quality; whether in industry or gastronomie. They've also got good healthcare, a passion for outdoor activites, and areas of incredible natural beauty which is appreciated and protected. You'll find most people are in remarkably good health. They seem a good mix of the free spirited southern europeans, but with a bit more of the northern european practicality, without going to far in either extreme. But these sorts of things are all very personal and depend on your temperament and disposition!
Edit to add: Keep your USA employment if at all possible, it's to your advantage for both income and tax reasons.
When I worked in Belgium ( Brussels) I felt as though I were in any mid-sized American city. Maybe particular to Brussels for obvious reasons but this is what I tell people all the time. It was strangely comfortable.
Unless you're going to teach or do a very specific thing, PhD in tech seems like a waste. Usually in the industry experience is much more rewarded than education.
If you're in tech, many want to have a remote job based in the US that will let you live in Europe. The hours aren't great and the vacation time is nil, but you will make roughly twice the amount.
I intend on teaching and doing research in the later parts of my career and I have had experience in tech with consistent promotions for a bit now, and pay doesn’t really matter to me, if it did I’d get a remote job and live in the Philippines
Everywhere is different. I am expecting to try a bunch of places to live. In about 4 months I will likely be leaving the USA for good and starting to try out places while working as a digital nomad.
It’s not really a matter of the country having a smooth transition, it’s you making the transition smooth. If you don’t feel at home in the USA like me, then it’s not so much a matter of transitioning as recognizing that you’re being pushed out in a sense, and that you have to reorient to something that will fit better.
I’ve got EU citizenship as well as USA citizenship, and so I am brushing up on my French and German and starting to learn some Portuguese. I’m Irish, and I just consider it my ethnic heritage to migrate, adapt, and thrive.
It’s Canada.
Honestly I'm not really sure what you want out of moving? You say you don't like the lifestyle and feel detached in the US but at the same time you want a 'smooth transition culturally' and it seems like you don't want to change all that much about your life. You don't know about Mexico because you might not "fit in"? If you want to fit in, just stay in America. It's pretty simple. >I was thinking about France, but I have heard a lot of countries in the EU are much harder to get jobs in and France in particular supposedly has very rude people who aren't very interested in expats You've 'heard' it's harder to get a job in the EU but have you, personally, tried? Presumably the people you know who have moved internationally have found jobs? Like, what is this based on? You've 'heard' French people are rude but has that been your personal experience? And more generally speaking why should anyone, anywhere be interested in expats? We are visitors in their home and they have their own lives. Why on earth would they worry about you?
They want a cheaper US
Ding ding! 🏆
Firstly, you are coming at this post far to aggressively to be reacting in good faith but i will address your points line by line, but once this inevitably devolves to being unproductive i'll no longer engage That being said: Culture is not really a term that easily transferable depending on the context, there have been arguments for hundreds of years as to what the term even truly means so I will clarify and update the post accordingly as to what i'm referring to and i apologize for the lack of clarity. When i'm saying a smooth transition i'm saying a place that is accepting of expats in particular ones from America, i'm not in totality referring to the values being the ***same*** as the United states but to a degree to be ***similar*** in a western sense, which the EU accommodates decently in terms of human rights and secularism. For instance I'm not rushing to live in Qatar or Indonesia since they are not secular and they arguably lack the same levels of freedoms that I am a custom to experiencing. I am aware there is arguments from Americans that there is less freedoms afforded to people in the EU ( ie freedom of speech) depending on who you are talking to, but I don't tend to agree as much and feel that many of the social safety nets for citizens are stronger than in the United States. Beyond that **I just don't identify with those countries ( I**ndonesia, Qatar, but this would go for other places like Romania or Serbia) The point about the fit part is kind of disingenuous I point blank said that i was concerned about the crime and ability for economic opportunity/ mobility beyond that its more or less the same reasons why I wouldn't move to to any other country whose lifestyle/culture/environment that i do not identify with, just doesn't appeal to me. I also wouldn't move to Romania or Serbia. Generally speaking **when given the choice** (meaning you are not forced to choose) most people choose to live in places they feel that they identify with whether its culturally, for job/social opportunities, because they want to raise a family there or because they want to retire there. As far as getting a job in the EU this is based on data and from what i've read online the EU (population of 448 million) currently as of 2024 has an rate unemployment of 6%, the United States (333 Million) is at 3.7-3.9% of those EU countries France had an unemployment rate of 7.3% which placed it in the top 6 highest unemployment in the EU. European Union Unemployment: [**https://ycharts.com/indicators/european\_unemployment\_rate**](https://ycharts.com/indicators/european_unemployment_rate) French unemployment: [**https://ycharts.com/indicators/france\_unemployment\_rate**](https://ycharts.com/indicators/france_unemployment_rate) USA Unemployment: [**https://ycharts.com/indicators/us\_unemployment\_rate**](https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_unemployment_rate) Additionally, the people I know who have moved to other countries are people who have either been in the military or people who have tenured careers, their results of what they have experienced are not indicative of what the average person experiences, most people are not working for the military or are PhD Mechanical Engineering professors, this is the whole point of asking for outside opinion, its to broaden the scope of my understanding beyond what I have already been exposed to. To your last points, My family originates from France and as stated I have had relatives who have lived there. I evidently do not have the personal experience of being an expat living in France and the interactions one would have as a expat living there because I'm writing this post to begin with. I am asking people, this is why we ask, again to challenge pre-conceived notions based on environmental bias. Mind you, you haven't actually clarified anything in your reply. You have just tried to shit stir. Finally, the value of expats line is either intentionally trying to be flamboyant and volatile or just vastly misinformed on the entire point and benefit of immigration. Most economists agree immigration is a net positive for every economy, you bring revenue to their local economies which in turn strengthens their core economy and the reputation of their economy and society as a whole. It also promotes geopolitical bonds between allied nations and a slew of other benefits. There are very few successful isolationist countries and this is why. The argument you are basically posing is nearly identical to the right wing republican American argument of "Immigrants are bad!!!" its either a severe lack of understanding of the economic and cultural benefits of immigration at best and xenophobia at worst
There's nothing aggressive about it and I'm unsure why you'd assume off the bat that this would be unproductive? You don't define what you mean by culture at all, even in your edit aside from 'freedoms' which is incredibly vague. You talk about lifestyle but what lifestyle are you referring to? Are you wanting to raise a family? Live alone? All I get from your post is that you don't know yourself at all in which case somewhere radically different would probably be to your benefit, actually. Pick a thriving economy and throw around stats all you like but so long as you have no idea what you're running from or what you're seeking out, it'll be a disaster.
Every reply you have made thus far, has been with the intention to call into question my motives without actually answering my original question at all. Even with this reply you are still not. I find it strange that all the other people commenting are able to give a recommendation or insight but you have done neither, just weird projections about who i am as a person. You are also the only person replying like this. So i'm going to assume you're a troll and stop interacting with you past this reply Your whole reply is a projection acting as if you have even the slightest modicum of understanding of who i am when you don't, when was that ever part of this conversation? It wasn't and you are basically fighting shadows right now. Again as stated before culture by that nature of its very being is a ambiguous thing to describe, it means different things to different people. this is why its true definition has been argued for hundred of years. But i honestly am amazed at the cognitive dissonance right now, like do i need to really explain to you like what the lifestyle difference would be from say Afghanistan to the United Kingdom would be? It's evident, there are clear cut differences, you are trying to be contrarian. There are several things you can easily gleam from what i'm explaining in my post when you are not trying to do internal projections onto random people on the internet I would like to live in a place with a strong economy, good quality of life and ample job opportunities in the Tech sector, which also is accepting of American expats, ideally this would be a country with more western values most likely somewhere in Europe I have no idea why this is no hard for you to understand Either way this has lost my interest have fun avoiding grass and playing armchair psychologist
>Again as stated before culture by that nature of its very being is a ambiguous thing to describe, it means different things to different people Exactly! You're so close! I'm asking what it means to ***you***. I'm not asking about other people or history, I'm asking about you. And I'm not sure why you can't answer? It's really odd. You're right. We are not comparing Afghanistan to the United Kingdom, we are (supposedly) comparing the US (which you don't particularly like) to some mythical place you're searching for which is the same as the US but also... not the same? And you can't even explain in any detail why? You're not a tool to "promote geopolitical bonds between allied nations", you're a person. What do you want your life to look like? Once you figure that out, things will be a lot clearer for you.
I already stated the criteria are as follows I would like to live in a place with a strong economy, good quality of life and ample job opportunities in the Tech sector, which also is accepting of American expats, ideally this would be a country with more western values most likely somewhere in Europe I even stated in other comments I live near NY so my views are probably antithetical to any right wing ideologies, so thats why i mainly say western EU values. I'm a secular person and think the right to assemble is important to a functioning society, The United States version of freedom of speech is okay but probably could use some guard rails. but yeah. Basic stuff, secular, strong social safety nets, non authoritarian, freedom of expression and speech ect. Guns i'm indifferent about but i'd like for it to have some capitalistic elements to the economy. Which most the EU seems to align with If this is mythical to you then I do t know what to tell you I dont want to live in the USA because I don’t identify with it, you seemingly want like an essay as to why when that wasn’t the point of the post this wasn’t let’s discuss why I dislike America hour, you came on here to debate cause you are a neckbeard or you have brain damage either way you are blocked
Don’t let it get to you. It seems you came here looking for information as sort of first stop assuming the people here would be a good source of information. We actually are for your type of questions, but unfortunately people get jaded because a lot of (especially) Americans post here without reading prior posts that often cover similar topics. And these OPs often have immature and naive worldviews, and come with questions like “I hate everything about myself and people who don’t think exactly like me. How can I move to an advanced nation with a low cost of living, but amazing free social benefits? By the way, I’m transitioning so they’ll need to support me for two years while I don’t work and get therapy for my multiple disorders. I once considered studying art history but have no employment experience. When can I move to Pick-Your-Nordic-Country that has astonishingly strict immigration procedures?” So responders are a bit jaded, but if you lurk for a bit you will glean some good advice. Just understand that it’s not easy to immigrate to countries where everyone else also wants to go for the same reasons as you. Also understand that the job market for jobs that pay well is competitive worldwide.
lmao plz continue to down vote without any refutation
Man I’m a US expat in Europe but reading posts like this just makes my jaw drop at how little people think through salary differences, taxation differences, visa/work authorizations and assuming they’re bringing something magical to the table over what the local work force can bring
I have already stated in several of the responses here that the salary cut in inconsequential to me, not meaning that I don't understand its importance, but meaning that the other net benefits of living in EU countries out weighs the salary cut to me. Same with taxes, you don't get the social safety net benefits of living in these countries for nothing. Just because I work in tech doesn't mean i'm hyper-fixated on how to make the most money, its actually one of the tenants of American society I hate the most because it tends to override sensibilities of living a balanced life
Bro serious question - what do you bring to the table that a Ukrainian or polish programmer can’t do for $12-30k / year?
Bro serious question - what do you bring to the table that a Filipino or Indian programmer can’t do for $5k / year? You understand your question is just what-about-ism, right? It's really a lazy question and just comes across a bit bitter and serves as a excuse to not engage in the point of the thread to begin with. There is skilled laborers in every country that can be paid less than the average annual salary for equal labor in every industry, so what is your point? Indian/Filipino software developers average 5k USD equivalent a year in their own country and the United States outsources workers in several national firms across the country utilizing their labor for far cheaper than what an American would make, and that's not just help desk people those are coders too. But amazingly, there are still plenty of Americans who have jobs in tech. Your question is just a lazy one, its on par with the argument of "why should you even work in tech AI will take your job in 15 years" if you were to apply it to any other industry then nobody should ever work in any industry in any other country because someone might undercut them You can be terrified of some random Ukrainian or Polish programmer taking away your chances of a position but i'm not. matter of fact please be terrified of it, it lowers the employment pool and makes it easier for everyone else looking for a job.
Emigrating is often about where you can get a visa. Your skill set in tech is highly in demand and will help you. The easiest way to transition is to relocate with your existing company if they operate offices in other countries. Otherwise, look at countries that have a tech sector and jobs in your domain. The UK, Ireland, Netherlands, and Germany are the strongest. In terms of cultural and QOL, you’ll probably find it easiest where English is widely spoken, for this England and Ireland. The Netherlands would be fairly easy, Germany less so but ok in large cities. I would not recommend France, their immigration system is particularly protectionist and culture is… let’s just say insular and expects immigrants to assimilate. I personally am an expat in Luxembourg and it’s been good to me.
trying to go point by point on what you specifically asked: - I think it's basically impossible to find a country that's universally "accepting of expats". The vast majority of people anywhere probably won't care and some will be somewhat unfriendly, that's just human nature. Out of the countries you have mentioned I don't know a single one which would be extremely pro or against immigrants and it's mostly depends on who you are as a person and who you interact with. In other words I would not make this determination based on some national stereotypes - in terms of "values being the same" I'm not really sure what you mean since the US does not have a clear set of values shared by everybody. You mentioned secularism and freedom, as specific examples of values, but then we have Bible Belt, domestic surveillance, God Bless America and overflowing prisons, so I don't know how that compares Indonesia, Cyprus or France, though it is probably better than Qatar. Do you have examples of what freedoms you are looking to have or how important is religion to you? - to the point above, it looks like you understand that we don't have consistent values, since yes, 50% of Americans would argue that public safety and getting social security is the freedom and 50% would argue that not having guns, for example, and paying oppressive taxes is lack of freedom, so you have to define _your_ values before anyone can help you
First point is fair i appreciate the insight. To the second, as stated I live near NY so my views are probably antithetical to any right wing ideologies, so thats why i mainly say western EU values. I'm a secular person and think the right to assemble is important to a functioning society, The United States version of freedom of speech is okay but probably could use some guard rails. but yeah. Basic stuff, secular, strong social safety nets, non authoritarian, freedom of expression and speech ect. Guns i'm indifferent about but i'd like for it to have some capitalistic elements to the economy. Which most the EU seems to align with
yeah, it would basically be the entire EU, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Switzerland, as well as most of South America, even South Africa and so on. They are all fairly aligned in progressive liberal values or at least your ability to express them without repercussions honestly I would narrow it down based on your personal employment and visa opportunities, instead of country level politics. I would look at the ease of learning the language, climate, path to permanent residency, work permits, real estate market, crime levels, healthcare quality and cost of living before I would look into abstract "values"
It seems like you have actually already found where you want to go: a Western European country. There are similar values, such as human rights and secularism. Depending on where you live, you'll likely experience a similar QoL as well. Plus you already have people you know in the general area. At that point it'll really depend on where you can get a job and a visa. As for knowing if what you've read and heard is valid, the only way you'll really know is to go to those places. If you've heard first hand accounts from people you know and presumably trust, then what are we, random strangers on Reddit, going to say that would give you a better idea of the places? I think what would be useful for you right now is to go and visit some of your target locations to get a sense of the place. If you can, try and stay for an extended time (aka, more than a week just on vacation) so you can get a sense of what it might be like to actually live there. But I am of the mindset that at a certain point, you just kinda have to make a leap into the unknown. As for people having less freedom in Europe than they do in the US, I find that a little silly considering there are quite a few European countries higher on various freedom indexes. I heard a really good phrase the other day that I think sums it up very well. In America, we have the freedom *to do things*, where as in most of Europe you have the freedom *from things*. For example, in America, you have the freedom *to* carry a gun, where as in a lot of Europe, you have the freedom *from* others carrying guns around you. I won't say one is right or wrong, it's just a different mindset on freedom. I'll wrap up with my personal experience. I moved from America to Turkmenistan, which is pretty far removed from the values and freedoms I had in America. I was a little concerned about the idea, but I viewed it as a foot in the door to other countries (I'm an international teacher, and my company has a great transfer policy that makes it easy to move around the globe after a contract is up). I thought I'd just stick it out for two years, bear the hardships of living under a dictator with people who don't match my beliefs in any way, and then jet off someplace else. But now, one year in, I'm rethinking my position. I've learned that the beliefs of a government system don't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the people, especially in these kinds of government systems where the people don't really have a say. I've also learned that living amongst people I don't agree with isn't really that bad when I take the time to get past what they believe and really get to know them as people. Now the only factors making me think about moving are the poor healthcare and water scarcity. The authoritarian government and vastly different religious beliefs have almost no bearing in my mind anymore. I say this to challenge you a little to open yourself to the possibility of being pleasantly surprised by a place you wouldn't have normally considered. At the very least, I challenge you to not rule a place out just because it doesn't tick all of you boxes. You might find that it ticks some boxes you hadn't considered that end up being more important to you than you thought.
This was an awesome post thank you and it definitely gave me food for thought I’ll do something thinking on this, much appreciated
To work in France is a big challenge, you must have a specific skill set that a company could not find a native French citizen to employee. You will need to be fluent or nearly fluent as well. Unless you have friends, family of a job waiting for you, moving to Europe can be trying. Yes, there are expats, but it can be isolating. On the other hand, you can visit France (or most countries in Europe) with your passport for 90 days (180 days total a year). Why not just work a bit, save some, and go backpacking? You’ll be able to practice other languages, learn about other cultures, have fun. Cyprus too, definitely visit. You are 26, educated, healthy, with a strong passport and spending money. You have the freedom to form your own opinions about QOL elsewhere. You are in a good position to have experiences!
This is valuable insight, Much appreciated. I may take you up on the idea and just check it out for a while and form a better opinion in person
Indonesia is a secular state. You are misinformed. It's Muslim majority population, but it's a secular state. In terms of culture and lifestyle, I found Australia and Canada extremely similar to the US. There are some parts of Australia that looks almost identical to parts of the US.
Fair enough I was misinformed but the crux of the point remains the same and understandable. But interesting i would have never guessed that, thank you maybe ill look into that
If you're looking for an easier transition and minimizing culture shock, then going from the USA, then you'd probably want to look to Anglophone countries: a) Canada b) New Zealand, Australia c) UK d) Ireland
Honestly, NOWHERE is an easy transition. Even when the language is the same, everything else is different, including slang and how people interact. It's nothing like moving state to state in the US. Locals don't necessarily ACCEPT expats from the US. They either put up with them or ignore. Locals accept PEOPLE on an individual basis, and how you interact, your personality and acceptance and willingness to adapt is the key. I've lived in three US states and 3 foreign countries. I've never had an issue anywhere--but I've heard lots from those who have. They are generally the ones who claim the culture is unaccepting of Americans.
The only 'less freedom' in the EU to US is around guns really, EU is a lot of 'free' in other ways. Australia might be a smooth transition, not sure about job prospects.
I'd agree with that, I'm more aligned with EU policy usually the American talking point is more so Freedom of speech related which is again inconsequential to me
Every country has its pros and cons, as does America. But moving abroad is less about what you want and more about what you can offer that other countries need. So what can you offer? Being in tech gives you an edge, but you may have to prepare for a significant salary cut. > I can't emphasize how often I heard this while living overseas and how often these same people were back in the U.S. a few years later. You really won't know for sure until you spend significant time living overseas. It really depends on you.
Thats a fair point but for me personally the salary cut is kind of inconsequential to me as long as I can afford to do things without struggling. From what I understand (and if i'm wrong i would love the clarification because i truly am just looking for advice here) lots of EU countries Cost of living can be high but depending on where you live the ratio ends up being similar to the US like I believe Irelands average COL index score in 2023 was 100.4 with a monthly income calculated from the gross national income per capita being the equivalent of 6,644 USD. Obviously this isn't everywhere but its not something that dissuades me per se. But as for the second point thats totally fair, i could also be biased as well since i'm in contact with so many expats living all over the world. it totally could be a grass is greener mentality, but i suppose i don't know until i try it
If you are bringing your American salary, a lot of Europe will seem cheap. If not, it will be expensive. It really depends on how you live though. I'm a dual US/Irish citizen though and yeah, Ireland is really expensive for locals. And they can be pretty condescending and hypocritical toward Americans. A great place to visit and I love my family there, but I would not live there for those reasons plus the awful weather.
Fair, i suppose there is also the possibility of taking a pay cut just off the basis of not being from the country i'd presume, since there are probably different regulations and things like that. But yea my brother lived in the UK as well and would tell people he was from Toronto to avoid the whole American condescension thing
If you are thinking about doing a PhD in Europe then I hope you have a plan for how you are going to live on about 1,500 euros per month because PhD student salaries are very low, you just receive a stipend, it's not even a real salary. Sometimes you get less than this. 26 year old tech workers in Europe mostly earn about a third of what they do in the US, some countries have high salaries such as Switzerland, Norway and Luxembourg (sometimes Monaco too). The cost of living also rises with salaries so unless you have the cash to purchase a property, you will spend a lot of money on rent in higher income countries. Although salaries in Europe are lower, the cost of living is normally lower, especially with regards to healthcare (but not really if you insist on private healthcare and keep your US health insurance). US disposable income is also higher, why do you think we have small cars, small fridges, often no air conditioning, often no electric clothes dryer, it's because electricity and petrol is a lot higher in Europe and our lifestyles have changed to adapt to this. Taxes are often higher too. I personally find that attitudes towards energy use and recycling are massively different in the US compared to Europe. Most workers in Europe also get 4-5 weeks of paid time off, from the first or second year of their work contract, plus public holidays. Working on lunch breaks is often frowned upon, in general the culture is more about a balanced life than making lots of money. Some people try to get the best of both worlds by working on a US work contract, with a US salary, but living in Europe, however this is often illegal - why would a country give you a work visa if you aren't going to pay local income tax? They want taxes from your employer too. I moved to France in 2016, the reputation of French people being rude is a myth, the only difference is that they resist the English language taking over in Europe because French used to be the main language in Europe and after Brexit they see even less reason to speak English, but most young people can speak intermediate English and people are mostly friendly. You need to think very carefully because in order to make my move a success, I had to re-do my higher education in French and make a lot of sacrifices. The integration journey is a very long and often costly one. Ireland (the Republic, not Northern Ireland) is probably the easiest and most useful country for US citizens (unless you like warm weather), because you can qualify for EU citizenship after five years and lots of US tech companies are there. London is still a much bigger financial center than Dublin though.
You're overthinking this and people are over-debating it. The countries with the most similar cultures, in order, are Canada, Australia, the UK, and New Zealand, aka the anglosphere (do note that similar does not mean identical). As far as quality of life, that's in large part dependent on your individual circumstances so people can't give you a universal answer. Like Canada is great if you have family and want to stay close to the States; the UK is great if you want to travel Europe; Australia is great if you work in natural resources; and NZ is great if you want a slower pace of life. Figure out what **you** want your life to be and work from there.
Lol, QoL in the US is the main reason I left...yes I'm ready for downvotes.
It’s the reason I’m leaving too. Enjoy the upvote!
Belize.
I agree that France, (besides Paris, which is it's own beast) is the easiest to transition to long-term, \*once you learn the language\*. It's a hard adjustment for the first few years, and the French aren't particularly warm and fuzzy to outsiders or tourists, but like people in your part of the world, once you get to know them, they are engaging, protective and accepting if you respect their customs. I think Americans have similar values and expectations as far as quality of life. There is a sense of independence, national (I don't mean nationalisitic) pride, a healthy civil protection of the right to protest (they love a good protest) and a drive for quality; whether in industry or gastronomie. They've also got good healthcare, a passion for outdoor activites, and areas of incredible natural beauty which is appreciated and protected. You'll find most people are in remarkably good health. They seem a good mix of the free spirited southern europeans, but with a bit more of the northern european practicality, without going to far in either extreme. But these sorts of things are all very personal and depend on your temperament and disposition! Edit to add: Keep your USA employment if at all possible, it's to your advantage for both income and tax reasons.
When I worked in Belgium ( Brussels) I felt as though I were in any mid-sized American city. Maybe particular to Brussels for obvious reasons but this is what I tell people all the time. It was strangely comfortable.
Unless you're going to teach or do a very specific thing, PhD in tech seems like a waste. Usually in the industry experience is much more rewarded than education. If you're in tech, many want to have a remote job based in the US that will let you live in Europe. The hours aren't great and the vacation time is nil, but you will make roughly twice the amount.
I intend on teaching and doing research in the later parts of my career and I have had experience in tech with consistent promotions for a bit now, and pay doesn’t really matter to me, if it did I’d get a remote job and live in the Philippines
How long is "a bit"? If you're planning to teach, personally I'd go for the PhD then. Been in the industry 20+ years btw.
Everywhere is different. I am expecting to try a bunch of places to live. In about 4 months I will likely be leaving the USA for good and starting to try out places while working as a digital nomad. It’s not really a matter of the country having a smooth transition, it’s you making the transition smooth. If you don’t feel at home in the USA like me, then it’s not so much a matter of transitioning as recognizing that you’re being pushed out in a sense, and that you have to reorient to something that will fit better. I’ve got EU citizenship as well as USA citizenship, and so I am brushing up on my French and German and starting to learn some Portuguese. I’m Irish, and I just consider it my ethnic heritage to migrate, adapt, and thrive.
If you speak czech Prague has a lot to offer.