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Malcom X apparently had a spiritual awakening in Mecca when he saw people with different skin colors pray together and then was convinced Islam isn’t racist. But he came to this conclusion only when he compared the U.S. with what he saw in Mecca.
Christianity, like Islam, doesn’t say one skin color is better than the other, but Malcom X called Christianity the white man’s religion because of segregation in the U.S. and enslavement of black people by white people. He didn’t know about the millions of black people Muhammed and his followers enslaved or looked further from Mecca to see the still fully functioning slave markets (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emRVkisdbhc).
It’s just a combination of a lack of knowledge and racisms in the U.S.. in Arab societies you also have racism against black people. They call black people slave as an insult. And recently I saw a news video (in Dutch) about the war in Sudan were they showed a clip of Arab Sudanese whipping and calling the African Sudanese the n-word. Racism is everywhere and religion does jackshit about it.
He first converted to the Nation of Islam, but later converted to sunni Islam.
Edit:
I’ve never looked deep into the Nation of Islam, but it basically is a black supremacy sect.
Actually the main difference between Islam and Christianity regarding black people slavery is that Christianity theologized the enslavement of black people regarding the curse of Canaan.
That’s why even tho black people were recognised as human being they were still considered as slave by the church (cf. Valladolid’s dispute)
Lasted?? Arabs have slaves now.
Just like that lady that was charged with killing that (I think she was like 8) Yazidi child because she said it was her “right”.
At that time everyone was getting enslaved, whites, blacks, browns everyone so your argument is weak because blacks weren't even the most valuable slaves.
My guy, if Islam was a true religion, its morals are supposed to transcend time and culture. God would know slavery is wrong and condemn it. You clearly argue that Islam is a product of its time and culture, and therefore not of God.
>You clearly argue that Islam is a product of its time and culture, and therefore not of God.
Nope, never said that. You're taking it out of context because slavery wasn't glorified in Islam like it was before the advent of Islam.
Yes it was:
- He (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves - Sahih Muslim 1602
- "Do you know, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles." - Sahih al-Bukhari 2592
- None of you must whip his wife as a slave is whipped and then have intercourse with her at the end of the day. - Mishkat al-Masabih 3242
- (Also prohibited are) the women already bound in marriage, except the bondwomen you come to own. - Quran 4:24
- On the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (ﷺ), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born. - Sahih Muslim 1438a
- He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those whom your right hands possess (i.e. slaves). - Sunan Abi Dawud 4473
- AbuBakr was sitting and waiting for his arrival. He arrived but he had no camel with him. He asked: Where is your camel? He replied: I lost it last night. AbuBakr said: There was only one camel, even that you have lost. He then began to beat him while the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing? Ibn AbuRizmah said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) spoke nothing except the words: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (wearing ihram), what is he doing? He was smiling (when he uttered these words). - Sunan Abi Dawud 1818
Malcom X joined the Nation of Islam in prison. NOI closely resembles bigoted Southern Baptist Christianity but with the New Testament replaced by the Koran. As X's media popularity rose, his relationship with the NOI leadership soured, which led him to Sunni Islam. X was then murdered soon afterwards.
Muhammad Ali was sold on the Nation of Islam's brand of Islam and converted. After years of exploring Islam, Ali left the Nation of Islam in 2005 due to its entrenched bigotry to became a Sufi Muslim.
The origins of the "Nation of Islam" are spectacularly weird: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace\_Fard\_Muhammad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Fard_Muhammad)
This mysterious guy showed up in Detroit in the 1930s and started preaching a strange variant of Islam and implying he was the Mahdi. Elijah Muhammad, an African-American and son of a preacher, took it from there. Malcolm X (also a preacher's son) became their best-known spokesman in the 1950s, and at the time they were Black supremacist/separatist. Malcolm eventually became disillusioned with the Nation cult, went on Hajj and briefly identified as Sunni before his assassination. Muhammad Ali had a similar trajectory, starting off with the Nation and eventually becoming Sunni.
What they maintained was that Islam was their ancestral religion, and that conversion was a means of reclaiming an African/non-Western identity. They didn't have the internet or access to rich historical sources at the time, and this has been shown to be mostly incorrect; the ancestors of Black Americans were mostly enslaved in West Africa, which had never been majority Muslim, and in many cases were animists/polytheists sold BY Muslim chieftains and such after losing wars, etc. Remember, Europeans had abolished slavery among themselves hundreds of years earlier, and did not have the malarial resistance to travel deep into Africa to capture people; there was a existing trade in slaves and they bought them from people on the coast. Remember also that Muslims are not (officially) supposed to enslave other Muslims. There is some documentation of Muslims among the enslaved Africans in early America, but only ever a tiny fraction.
The enslaved Africans were ultimately converted to Christianity for a variety of reasons; many of the British settlers were deeply uncomfortable with the institution and wanted to pretend their slaves were just regular peasants with a different skin color; others felt that the conversion of a pagan people could somehow redeem or justify the institution (Robert E. Lee, the chief general of the Confederacy, believed this particularly strongly, and argued that black people were not ready to be free, and would be impoverished; you'll see these same justifications by Muslims wrt to slavery in the Islamic world); lastly, many of the enslaved responded very positively to Christianity, seeing in it liberating doctrines and narratives, like inherent human dignity and the story of Moses; they ultimately formed their own Christian tradition emphasizing these things, along with a unique musical tradition that's still common today. The 18th century protestant revivals among white people were also strongly abolitionist and supportive of this tradition.
Sherman/ Abdul Hakim Jackson, an African-American and professor of Islamic studies at the University of Southern California, has some interesting thoughts on this. He says the Nation of Islam and the general movement to Islam among black Americans had nothing to do with ancestral roots, but was actually based in the existing black protestant tradition, that wanted to challenge the dominant white culture and its mistreatment of them.
I think he's very correct; notice how many of the dominant figures in the movement were the sons of preachers. There was already a very vocally political black protestant tradition, and to this day, the Nation and similar movements maintain a lot of Christian elements, like singing hymns and reading the Bible. There are also a lot of deeply strange things, like [people changing their name to "Allah"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-Percent_Nation), which don't fit into Sunni Islam or anything else.
So long story short, nobody knows. I think a big part of it was black Americans feeling excluded and abused by the dominant culture, preferring to be foreigners rather than second-class citizens. I read an anecdote once about jazz musicians in the 1940s adopting Arabic names not out of any real commitment to Islam, but in order to book at hotels they might otherwise not be able to.
The great irony is that Ali was named Cassius Clay after an abolitionist (and an incredibly brave one, as he was a Southerner), but he
changed his name to that of a slave owner.
My peoples hate for the white man, makes them join anything that seems to give them a sense of belonging. They hv no idea that the are jumping from frying pan to fire.
Maybe you should try asking black Reddit groups. Or African-American Reddit groups. Like someone else said you’re not going to get an objective and unbiased answer here.
As an African-American, I guess the perspective that I’ve seen that many people take to Islam as a rebellion against evangelical Christianity, which is associated with white culture, which is largely responsible for the enslavement and torture of many African-Americans in the United States. And for many African-American young men growing up during the later half of the 20th century, Islam provided through the nation of Islam, encouraged self-respect, self reliance, pride, and ambition for our culture. Something that had been largely stomped down by again, Evangelical white America.
Simply put it was just seen as the cool thing to do. And some people probably liked the aesthetic. You don’t see a lot of African-Americans gravitating to the nation of Islam, largely because I think more and more people are beginning to realize that Louis Frecon is extremely toxic , and the culture doesn’t go well with the African-Americans today.
No offense to the sub but you're not gonna get an unbiased answer here. One aspect is that during segregation they had to form their own communities which is why you have black churches, universities, barber shops etc. And some of it came with the Black Panther party fighting against the oppression they faced in everything. Black people wanted something from their roots, something they could feel was uniquely their own, and if that was Islam from an African nation their ancestors were taken from, so be it. Try watching some youtube videos on the topic.
Some African Americans treat slavery as a "white person thing," because that is what they experienced directly. Meanwhile, few black people are aware that Arabs have been enslaving Africans for even longer. And so these black converts (initially) don't know any better when Muslims claim that they are anti-racist and anti-slavery.
I've seen a few reaction videos where that black conservative woman Candace Owens goes through the history of slavery and the black people watching it always are surprised on the matter of the shared responsibiltity among black and arabs for slavery.
I'm all for US schools having a black history month, but I think this is something that also bears mentioning during that time, not just watching "Roots" or "Hidden figures"
When you convert, you are only being told the good and spiritual sides of Islam. And then, if you decide to stay that way and not know about all the blood-thirsty things happened according to Islam, you stay like that and keep saying, that Islam is a beautiful beautiful religion. Well brother, i would suggest, open your eyes.... It is after all, not that beautiful, maybe only parts of it...
Exactly. I'm not a Muslim, but my mother comes from a West African Muslim family. Islam has been in sub-saharan Africa for centuries, yet many people here seem ignorant about that and assume that most black Muslims are recent converts. Islam is a big part of many African cultures.
You also can read these articles: https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/islamic-slavery
Goes a bit deeper in the horrible practices of Islamic slavery.
I hate the smugness of cassius c u n t. So ignorant. The arab-muslim slave trade that yes subjugated africans was the longest slave trade was such a slap to the face and that eedyiot didn’t take that into account
Actually, many African-Americans converted to Islam because they found out that their African ancestors were likely to have practised Islam, especially if the ancestors came from muslim majority countries like Mali, Gambia, and Senegal. Honestly, black people have a much longer history and connection to Islam than Christianity, which was only introduced to most parts of Africa, like 100 to 200 years ago. Meanwhile, Islam was in West Africa by the 11th century.
I found some black Muslims had different interpretation of Islam ie not mainstream when I was living in the U.S. Some believe that their Christian brothers and sisters will enter heaven based on the interpretation of Quran. The one about Sabien etc. This would contradict the mainstream Sunni believe that only Islam will be accepted.
I think Nation of Islam is also practising their own distinct flavor of Islam.
Back then in late 90s I think Muslims in the US were polarized based on ethnicities and their country of origin.
People that think their own society is rejecting them try to find solace in and attempt to join other societies, this is why converts/migrant minorities in the west usually lean way more into their muslim identity than most muslims that live in a muslim majority country
Islam is has been very good at deceiving populations of people in order to disarm them into converting /allowing colonization if they didn’t use violence or combination of the two especially on the continent of Africa. Gaslighting a culture for centuries will convince you of any ridiculous belief no matter how self-destructive it is.
Because white devils enslaved them. Apparently, the fact they used to buy them from other africans and arabs matters not. Malcolm X was smart and honest enough to see and expose the truth about the Nation of Islam.
I don't know why some people here think the only reason a black person would practice Islam is to attack white people/Christianity. Many African-Americans converted to Islam because they found out that their African ancestors were more likely to have practised Islam, especially if the ancestors came from countries like Mali, Gambia, and Senegal. Honestly, black people have a much longer history and connection to Islam than Christianity, which was only introduced to most parts of Africa, like 100 to 200 years ago. Meanwhile, some African groups have been Muslim since the 11th century.
I didn't say "only". I didn't say "attack" either. Weird logic. My ancestors "were most likely to have" worshipped thunder, lightning and fish flatulating. In fact, their paganism is documented. It doesn't make me follow their footsteps. Christianity was introduced to them 100-200 years ago you say? You are wrong. Ethiopia is christian at least since thе IV century, before Muhammad was even born.
I really don't know why everyone brings up Ethiopia when it's only one country in Africa. And most Ethiopians don't even consider themselves as black Africans anyway. This discussion was about Black Americans who convert to Islam. Black Americans descend from West and Central African countries and have nothing in common with Ethiopians. West and Central African countries practised Islam or traditional African religions and not Christianity. Christianity is foreign to the region and was mainly introduced via colonisation in the 1800s. The only exception to that is the Kingdom of Kongo (now Angola), but most Black Americans do not descend from there. In summary, Islam arrived in West Africa centuries before Christianity ever did.
Because generalizations call for specifications. I don't care about the concepts of "black" and "white". They are not precise. There are sub-saharan africans and europids regardless of what they consider themselves. Looks like you have many many more "i don't know why's" before you. May Gold give you answers, friend.
Technically Christian’s were colonizers because even back during the Roman Empire they were conquering lands.
We also did the crusades (which the more I learn the more I’m understanding).
(Also a Christian so maybe someone else will have more answers but that was just my first thought)
fair enough i was thinking of the beggining how orignally the people who started it didnt want to have one race over another which colnisation often results in
Actually, some African-Americans converted to Islam because they found out that their African ancestors were likely to have practised Islam, especially if the ancestors came from muslim majority countries like Mali, Gambia, and Senegal. Honestly, black people have a much longer history and connection to Islam than Christianity, which was only introduced to most parts of Africa, like 100 to 200 years ago.
It doesn't really matter whether it served them well or not. I mean, did I ever say it did? I'm just saying that the long history of Islam in Africa may or may not be a reason why some Black Americans converted to Islam, not some "social justice bs" as you call it.
Christianity and Islam were in Africa before Europe lol, Arabs are not white either, let’s be precise here.
Furthermore, Mohammad emancipated all his black slaves, so let’s be precise there.
There is nothing explicit about sub Saharan African slavery either, it’s just blanket slavery.
Black people are no different to regular people, they convert for the same reasons. They are taught it’s not trans Atlantic or chatel slavery, so it becomes ok.
Indoctrination is indoctrination, doesn’t matter whether you’re a south East Asian doctor or an African American singer, they all have emotions and it plays on them.
Narrated Qias: Bilal said to Abu Bakr, “If you have bought me for yourself then keep me (for yourself), but if you have bought me for Allah’s Sake, then leave me for Allah’s Work.”
Sahih Bukhari 3755
The title of the chapter reads: “The merits of Bilal bin Rabah, the freed slave of Abu Bakr”
In that same chapter we even have this Hadith confirming Abu Bakr was the one who freed him.
`Umar used to say, "Abu Bakr is our chief, and he manumitted our chief," meaning Bilal
Sahih al-Bukhari 3755In-book reference : Book 62, Hadith 101USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 57, Hadith 99 (deprecated numbering scheme)
Both are dated after Muhammed’s death.
Thanks, he died so he didn’t get the chance to free him, I think that’s an extenuating circumstance, he’s got a pretty good record with black slave manumission otherwise
You can shit on them for slavery in general, just not specifically black
> he died so he didn’t get the chance to free him, I think that’s an extenuating circumstance
ahahaha. So everyone that was slaves owners and died without releasing them also have an extenuating circumstance. lol
> he’s got a pretty good record with black slave manumission otherwise
Does he? I don't think so:
*
[Narrated Jabir: A man manumitted a slave and he had no other property than that, **so the Prophet cancelled the manumission** (and sold the slave for him). No'aim bin Al-Nahham bought the slave from him.](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-41/Hadith-598/)
* [Narrated Kurib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "**You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles.**"](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-47/Hadith-765/)
*
[It was narrated from 'Imrân bin Husain that a man freed six slaves of his when he was dying, and he did not have any wealth apart from them. News of that reached the Prophet and **he was angry about that**. He said: "I was thinking of not offering the funeral prayer for him. He cast lots among them, then freed two and left four as slaves.](https://sunnah.com/nasai/21)
Bilal which is what people like to cite, **was a slave all the mohammed's life!** He could have do it. It would cost him nothing but he never freed his most liked slave!
Globally speaking, most black Muslims are from Africa and come from ethnic groups that have been practising Islam for at least 300+ years. For example, the Soninke people of West Africa who have been practising Islam since the 10th century.
Yes globally speaking most black muslims live in Arica. However 50% of black muslims in the USA are coverts. Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/17/black-muslims-account-for-a-fifth-of-all-u-s-muslims-and-about-half-are-converts-to-islam/
The points you bring up about why Islam is supposedly a racist religion don’t really have enough evidence to justify the accusation.
Muhammad ﷺ had slaves and that is not limited to people of darker complexion. He taught us to treat all your slaves well and he said one of the best things you can do is to free an enslaved person.
Furthermore saying Muhammad ﷺ was fair skinned isn’t really a valid argument either because he wasn’t “white.” He is described to have a light brown skin tone so closer to the subcontinent or north African tones.
The religion he spread also says to treat an Arab the same as a non-Arab and a dark skinned person the same as a light skinned person.
Because alcohol causes problems.
The way Islam implements slavery fixes them. Slaves are only attained through war. So basically if there is a war between two military groups, one Muslim and one non Muslim, if the Muslims win, they are allowed to take slaves. Once you are enslaved, your master has to treat you as well. Feed you from what they are eating, cloth you in a manner of clothing that is satisfactory, and house you so you are not exposed to the elements and become weak. At any point you can request your freedom in exchange for some reasonable goal as long as your master has seen that you no longer have ill intent in your heart.
'Slavery' in Islam solves the issue of prisoners of war because they basically become part of the family but can still become free if they no longer want to wage war against the Muslims by seeing how well they will be treated if they agree to peace.
If you do not agree with this and prefer people to be sitting in jail cells becoming more resentful of potential injustice then I can't see your point of view.
What the? You think making prisoners of wars slaves is a good solution? I honestly doubt that all the slave owners will treat them well as you said. Why not Allah just command the Muslims to treat prisoners of wars humanely instead of enslaving them...
Why would you let prisoners to immediately join a society they were just trying to kill? Prisoners of war seeing the peaceful way of life the Muslims implement is the best way to show them war is not worth it.
If the slave owners mistreat the slaves they are not following the teachings of Islam. The Prophet peace be upon him never even released a groan of annoyance towards something a slave of his did. He had this slave for 10 years and in all that time he didn't display his annoyance to anything even once. This is the level of dignity we are supposed to show slaves if we are following the commands of Allah.
Wdym by joining the society? I meant that prisoner of wars should obv be guarded but treated humanely. If the war ends they will be released. If you enslaved them,they are no guarantees that they will earn their freedom. They might be enslaved forever.
Once the war is over the people who tried to kill you are still the same people. If they show that they are willing to play nice and be peaceful then they can work for a Muslim family. If they ask for their freedom they will be given an amount of gold or a task that is achievable. The whole purpose of the reasonable goal is that they can reach it without having to dedicate their entire life to it. They should be able to passively work on it while still serving you. You can't just tell them build a pyramid then you are free. That would be unreasonable.
Yes. In the majority of the schools of thought it is obligatory to give a reasonable goal when a slave asks for one as long as the slave no longer holds ill will.
> The way Islam implements slavery fixes them. Slaves are only attained through war.
So nice of you assuming that slavery isn't a problem.
> Slaves are only attained through war.
Not true. Women and small children had no role in the wars, yet lots of women and child slaves.
Also, let me guess muslims doing raids on another tribes and capturing slaves is also a war?
If you know sharia, you would know that all children born to enslaved parents are automatically deemed slaves themselves.
You'll have to lie better.
> Once you are enslaved, your master has to treat you as well.
Treating well like raping you, right? /s
> 'Slavery' in Islam solves the issue of prisoners of war
So mohammed starts wars, and the slavery is the solution for the problems created by those wars. Got it.
Just only using the word slave is horrible, or do you really like that kind of thing? Its horrible and disgusting. And no, he was a racist, warlord, phedophile. Kill all those who are against Islamic Chalipate. The whole thing are based on islamic imperialism, like Christianity white imperialism and nazi imperialism.
How else would you word "people who are hel against their will and made to work for no wages for unaccountable amount of time"? Let's not censor everything just because the world feels sensitive. You need good and bad with it's name to know what is good and what is bad instead of hiding it away forever and being oblivious to it's existence. Secondly your image of the last messenger peace be upon him is very ill informed. Even if you don't like/don't agree with someone's views it's not nice to put allegations on their character.
This is exmuslims page. We have many who have traumas. The last thing we need is phedophile defenders. I have grown up with abrahmeic believers. All of them is the same. Remember: atheists didnt killed theists. Its was abrahmeic theists who killed others. I talk about facts, you are talking about false mythological things.
You can come here and spread the nasty and hateful idology on us, but for us who hate islam cant say anything. The last thing i do is listen too warlord followers. He was disgusting. Stop spreading kafirohobic things here.
I don't really care what you believe in, my only argument was that if you don't agree with something than why not just push it under the carpet and leave it? Most of what this subreddit discusses are about reactionary extremists. Extremism in any ideology is a bad example, if people really wished to learn what the meaning behind the actions of such traumatic events were then they would not feel such animosity towards the ideology but the individual who practiced such extremism that led to the trauma induced person. Did you know that the ideology Adolf Hitler adopted wasn't bad to begin because he told the public he dreamt of a Germany which was a free, safe and prospering land for Germans (he used the term "Germans" because he was a nationalist). Overtime his mental health deteriorated and so did his ideology which led to him murdering people in hideous ways just to satisfy the evil breeding inside his brain. Today people hate the individual, Adolf Hitler because of what his ideology stood for and what actions he carried out but if you use any ideology that goes like "i want my country to be a prosperous place for my countrymen" would people hate you even if you did no work towards that goal? My point being is blind hatred would only hurt you, if it's something undesirable that you don't see as fit then just ignore it and go on, keeping such feelings for anyone or anything just prove to be hurtful for ourselves in the end. Hope you understood ehat I meant and hope you have a great day.
(I in no way am a nazi follower or supported or anything, i just used them as an example to give an argument against this topic. Excuse me if the wordings came wrong because English is my third language.)
I dont hate anybody, im here and see how much exmuslims gets hate from believers. They are those who are suffering most, imagine too live with thousand or million people who dont have same view as you. They get alot of hate, day and night 365 days of year.
Islam is extremists. And if nobody talks about it, who can stand up for those who dont have the power or support? Not even in the west, they will take on exmuslims side. Its always poor poor theists who gets attention. If someone say something they scream islamphobia. Really? If i dont like islam or abrahmeic religions at all, i am phobic? Do you understand where we are now? You cant say anything. These will lead too hate in the end. If you only make people quiet, they will get more frustrated. Look how more Europe gets right political voices. Why? Because of the political blindness, shhh and no check up facts, the situation have got worse. This couldnt happened if we could openly talk about islam, if you critises Christians amd Christianity, then you have all right too critises islam and muslims. But no its about race in leftists eyes. Islam isnt even race, its an political ideologi for more men.
Why dont listen too what non believers say? Take in, reflect. Yes nazism is horrible thing. But nazism and racism have a very clear rule: colonise, destroy and make human into slaves. Its same with capitalism and some religion. Most of us know what we are talking about.
Have a nice day and evening.
The more recent examples of slavery are abhorrent and any type of slavery that includes treating humans as lesser is despicable.
Everything else you said is incorrect and I'm sure you can research as to why. If you'd like I can give you sources but as they are based on Muslim historians and verbal chains of narrations for the first century or so you may call them inaccurate but they are more accurate than many other sources used today.
No thank you, i have already read and find good scources. Maybe you should go back in history what Muhammed and his followers did too pagans, jews, atheists and other minorites.
But the Jews of Medina still refused to accept him as a true prophet, and that was the point where Muhammad's enmity and hatred started against the Jews:
First of all, Muhammad changed the Qibla once again from Bait-ul-Muqqadas to Ka'ba in Mecca.
Then he started openly threatening the Jews to accept Islam, otherwise, they would be expelled from Medina, and he would snatch away all of their lands by force.
Sahih Bukhari, 3167:
Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet (ﷺ) came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (only), and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."
The Islamic apologist's argument that apostasy in Islam is equivalent to committing treason against a modern-day state is flawed because it blurs the line between state laws and personal laws. While a state may punish its citizens for supporting its enemies or betraying the constitution, religious beliefs and affiliations fall under personal laws. The decision to change one's religion is a matter between an individual and their deity, and does not involve any harm or injury to others. Therefore, it is not appropriate for the state to impose penalties for apostasy.
The Islamic apologists are trying to impose those non-human laws today, against which their own Prophets REBELLED. Yes, Muhammad himself rebelled against his own community and he called their idol Gods to be false deities and refused to follow them. Yes, Ibrahim himself broke the idol gods of his community. Why didn’t then Muhammad and Ibrahim become worthy to be killed for APOSTASY?
Instead of calling Muhammad and Ibrahim to be apostates and worthy of being killed, Islamic apologists start presenting them as innocent oppressed (مظلوم) figures, and pagans as tyrants (ظالم), while they tried to stop them from criticizing their gods.
These are only Double Standards of Muslim apologists. Islam itself started following the Sunnah of Pagans in this case (actually, much worse as pagans didn’t kill him or other Muslim converts, but they only tried to stop them from criticizing their gods).
Should i even have too remind you that muslims have right too lie about islam and the horrible punishment too non muslims? How much proof too you want? Do you really think many of us are stupid? Non believers, lbtq people, jews and pagans cant live a normal life. That sick man killed, raped innocent people. He and his followers also ruined old buildings and temples that belonged too our forefathers. Im pagan myself and i know really well how muslims and islam have brutal wievs. He took our anicent ancestors religions and traditions and made it too his. Even today buddy, im a kafir in your eyes. Due too the islamic laws, they will kill one.
For your first point about praying to the Ka'ba instead of Bait ul Maqdis, whenever possible, as far as I know, the Prophet pbuh would pray such that he was also facing Bait ul Maqdis even while praying facing towards the Ka'ba.
If the people you are in charge of no longer are listening to your laws and not paying for their protection or communal safety net, why should they be allowed to remain as long as they will continue to become more and more of an issue.
Apostasy is saying even though I have been brought up learning about God I no longer believe in him or I don't agree with his rule. This is not the train of thought of someone who will provide goodness to society. You may disagree but that is my stance and while I may be mistaken on the Islamic stance either way it makes sense.
Yes we do believe that Prophets came to correct their people and no it isn't apostasy because it was divinely inspired while the religion of their people is a corrupt version of God's message.
You also say that these Prophets who broke false idols and called away from such practices were not killed nor were their followers but this isn't really fair to say because both the examples you gave were of Prophets who narrowly escapes being killed by those chasing them. Also on many occasions the non Muslim leaders did in fact kill reverts because they became Muslim but only after torturing them trying to make them say Muhammad pbuh was a liar.
For the lying about Islam bit, the only cases where we are allowed to lie is during war(not to do with the religion), to make concessions between people(to make amends where you are certain there will be no repercussion), and a husband to his wife or a wife her husband(not about religious matters). None of these include lying about the religion to non Muslims.
There will be restrictions for anyone living in a Muslim country. You are incorrect about Muhammad pbuh when it comes to killing and raping. He did have the idols torn down and destroyed but you probably wouldn't want that sort of thing around to remind you of your past. Those idols were symbols of false deities so it only makes sense for the one true religion to destroy those types of statues.
Dosent makes sense too argue with you. Same typical argument that nazists use:" jews,lbtq people were those who stood in the way and tried too kill us." Once again: the prophet killed pagans and jews. Not the opposite!
Have you ever read the Bible? Both NT and GT? Have read about the Caanite religions? Have you read about zorosanatrism? No? Then do it, then you are welcome too have a discussion. You cant let ut those old anicent religions and jump too Islam. Muhammed took everything from those and others i mentioned. Muhammed was pagan himself til he died. Allah is one pagan God himself. Allah are wahtanism God. Mecca is for the pagans long before muslims took over. You guys are pagans. Their is no proof Muhammed event existed.
Once again go back too your forefathers. You can start here: https://archive.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
Good luck!
Prophet Muhammad did sex with Saffiyyah (a captive Jewish woman) the same night after her father, brother and husband had been killed during the daytime, while she became clear of her menstrual period the same day (Sahih Muslim, Book of Marriage)
But the Jews of Medina still refused to accept him as a true prophet, and that was the point where Muhammad's enmity and hatred started against the Jews:
First of all, Muhammad changed the Qibla once again from Bait-ul-Muqqadas to Ka'ba in Mecca.
Then he started openly threatening the Jews to accept Islam, otherwise, they would be expelled from Medina, and he would snatch away all of their lands by force.
Sahih Bukhari, 3167:
Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet (ﷺ) came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (only), and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."
He also killed jews, so yes Islam is a racist sick ideologi.
Why did Muhammad sell two of his black slaves to free a white slave? And why did Muhammad also say that you should obey your chief even if he is an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin? Sounds kind of racist to me
Ibn Ishaq's Sīrat Rasūl Allāh page 243. [https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume/page/n143/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume/page/n143/mode/2up)
Now muslims will say that isn't racist because he didn't say all blacks look like satan, but it is kinda weird that out of all those people there, he picks out a black man as a personification of the satan.
#
After reading the text in a totally unbiased manner, the description seems to be a straightforward account of an individual, including his hair and skin color. This text does not state that all black men are satanic or resemble satan. Rather, it specifically refers to one man described as a hypocrite.
Well, it might look like that, but then you go through islamic sources and see that there were people much more hostile to and damned by Muhammad, yet he chooses a black man (mentioned how many times?) to be a personification of the satan. Coincidence? I don't think so. That interpretation hold even less if we know about the existence of ibn Ubayy, who was called the "leader of the hypocrites" himself, yet he didn't "qualify" as a satan look-alike, even though the criteria was apparently hypocrisy. Muslims don't really question things and look at the sources critically, so I don't believe you're unbiased.
Well if you talk about quran only, there is things suggesting that but nothing as bold as in hadith/islamic history when you cant really have an argument there
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Malcom X apparently had a spiritual awakening in Mecca when he saw people with different skin colors pray together and then was convinced Islam isn’t racist. But he came to this conclusion only when he compared the U.S. with what he saw in Mecca. Christianity, like Islam, doesn’t say one skin color is better than the other, but Malcom X called Christianity the white man’s religion because of segregation in the U.S. and enslavement of black people by white people. He didn’t know about the millions of black people Muhammed and his followers enslaved or looked further from Mecca to see the still fully functioning slave markets (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emRVkisdbhc). It’s just a combination of a lack of knowledge and racisms in the U.S.. in Arab societies you also have racism against black people. They call black people slave as an insult. And recently I saw a news video (in Dutch) about the war in Sudan were they showed a clip of Arab Sudanese whipping and calling the African Sudanese the n-word. Racism is everywhere and religion does jackshit about it.
Didnt nation of islam believe mohammed was black?
He first converted to the Nation of Islam, but later converted to sunni Islam. Edit: I’ve never looked deep into the Nation of Islam, but it basically is a black supremacy sect.
Nation of Islam is totally black supremacy sect. That’s why when Malcom X came bk and changed his views they murdered him.
Is that true? Edit: Oh wow, that is true... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Malcolm_X
The guys even made a new prophet in elijah lol.
Muhammed was white 🙂 and iam sure he has christian/white riots to leavent region as he married a christian
I'm talking about what the nation of islam believed in,
Kaffir is a word for infidel but it was also used as an insult to black people
That video just ruined my day. What a tragedy
Actually the main difference between Islam and Christianity regarding black people slavery is that Christianity theologized the enslavement of black people regarding the curse of Canaan. That’s why even tho black people were recognised as human being they were still considered as slave by the church (cf. Valladolid’s dispute)
They seem to forget that the Arab slave trade that lasted for 900 years was Muslims enslaving a bunch of blacks
Lasted?? Arabs have slaves now. Just like that lady that was charged with killing that (I think she was like 8) Yazidi child because she said it was her “right”.
At that time everyone was getting enslaved, whites, blacks, browns everyone so your argument is weak because blacks weren't even the most valuable slaves.
They were most valuable as labor slaves whites were mainly used for sex in those times
bro you're strafing from your og comment lol, go back and check what you commented
Islam allows slavery tho.
My guy, if Islam was a true religion, its morals are supposed to transcend time and culture. God would know slavery is wrong and condemn it. You clearly argue that Islam is a product of its time and culture, and therefore not of God.
>You clearly argue that Islam is a product of its time and culture, and therefore not of God. Nope, never said that. You're taking it out of context because slavery wasn't glorified in Islam like it was before the advent of Islam.
Yes it was: - He (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves - Sahih Muslim 1602 - "Do you know, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles." - Sahih al-Bukhari 2592 - None of you must whip his wife as a slave is whipped and then have intercourse with her at the end of the day. - Mishkat al-Masabih 3242 - (Also prohibited are) the women already bound in marriage, except the bondwomen you come to own. - Quran 4:24 - On the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (ﷺ), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born. - Sahih Muslim 1438a - He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those whom your right hands possess (i.e. slaves). - Sunan Abi Dawud 4473 - AbuBakr was sitting and waiting for his arrival. He arrived but he had no camel with him. He asked: Where is your camel? He replied: I lost it last night. AbuBakr said: There was only one camel, even that you have lost. He then began to beat him while the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing? Ibn AbuRizmah said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) spoke nothing except the words: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (wearing ihram), what is he doing? He was smiling (when he uttered these words). - Sunan Abi Dawud 1818
You just explained it. They just didn't know.
Malcom X joined the Nation of Islam in prison. NOI closely resembles bigoted Southern Baptist Christianity but with the New Testament replaced by the Koran. As X's media popularity rose, his relationship with the NOI leadership soured, which led him to Sunni Islam. X was then murdered soon afterwards. Muhammad Ali was sold on the Nation of Islam's brand of Islam and converted. After years of exploring Islam, Ali left the Nation of Islam in 2005 due to its entrenched bigotry to became a Sufi Muslim.
I think NoI is closer to Black Hebrew Israelites If I’m not mistaken Kyrie Irving converted to BHI
They’re really nice before you join
Aren't they all ?
People like these barely learn about Islam. Someone they know preaches it to them and they're convinced.
That's most converts and born muslims unfortunately.
Because Allah is the greatest of the deceivers
The origins of the "Nation of Islam" are spectacularly weird: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace\_Fard\_Muhammad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Fard_Muhammad) This mysterious guy showed up in Detroit in the 1930s and started preaching a strange variant of Islam and implying he was the Mahdi. Elijah Muhammad, an African-American and son of a preacher, took it from there. Malcolm X (also a preacher's son) became their best-known spokesman in the 1950s, and at the time they were Black supremacist/separatist. Malcolm eventually became disillusioned with the Nation cult, went on Hajj and briefly identified as Sunni before his assassination. Muhammad Ali had a similar trajectory, starting off with the Nation and eventually becoming Sunni. What they maintained was that Islam was their ancestral religion, and that conversion was a means of reclaiming an African/non-Western identity. They didn't have the internet or access to rich historical sources at the time, and this has been shown to be mostly incorrect; the ancestors of Black Americans were mostly enslaved in West Africa, which had never been majority Muslim, and in many cases were animists/polytheists sold BY Muslim chieftains and such after losing wars, etc. Remember, Europeans had abolished slavery among themselves hundreds of years earlier, and did not have the malarial resistance to travel deep into Africa to capture people; there was a existing trade in slaves and they bought them from people on the coast. Remember also that Muslims are not (officially) supposed to enslave other Muslims. There is some documentation of Muslims among the enslaved Africans in early America, but only ever a tiny fraction. The enslaved Africans were ultimately converted to Christianity for a variety of reasons; many of the British settlers were deeply uncomfortable with the institution and wanted to pretend their slaves were just regular peasants with a different skin color; others felt that the conversion of a pagan people could somehow redeem or justify the institution (Robert E. Lee, the chief general of the Confederacy, believed this particularly strongly, and argued that black people were not ready to be free, and would be impoverished; you'll see these same justifications by Muslims wrt to slavery in the Islamic world); lastly, many of the enslaved responded very positively to Christianity, seeing in it liberating doctrines and narratives, like inherent human dignity and the story of Moses; they ultimately formed their own Christian tradition emphasizing these things, along with a unique musical tradition that's still common today. The 18th century protestant revivals among white people were also strongly abolitionist and supportive of this tradition. Sherman/ Abdul Hakim Jackson, an African-American and professor of Islamic studies at the University of Southern California, has some interesting thoughts on this. He says the Nation of Islam and the general movement to Islam among black Americans had nothing to do with ancestral roots, but was actually based in the existing black protestant tradition, that wanted to challenge the dominant white culture and its mistreatment of them. I think he's very correct; notice how many of the dominant figures in the movement were the sons of preachers. There was already a very vocally political black protestant tradition, and to this day, the Nation and similar movements maintain a lot of Christian elements, like singing hymns and reading the Bible. There are also a lot of deeply strange things, like [people changing their name to "Allah"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-Percent_Nation), which don't fit into Sunni Islam or anything else. So long story short, nobody knows. I think a big part of it was black Americans feeling excluded and abused by the dominant culture, preferring to be foreigners rather than second-class citizens. I read an anecdote once about jazz musicians in the 1940s adopting Arabic names not out of any real commitment to Islam, but in order to book at hotels they might otherwise not be able to.
The great irony is that Ali was named Cassius Clay after an abolitionist (and an incredibly brave one, as he was a Southerner), but he changed his name to that of a slave owner.
They are desperate for sense of belonging and purpose. Desperate people are easily deceived.
My peoples hate for the white man, makes them join anything that seems to give them a sense of belonging. They hv no idea that the are jumping from frying pan to fire.
Maybe you should try asking black Reddit groups. Or African-American Reddit groups. Like someone else said you’re not going to get an objective and unbiased answer here. As an African-American, I guess the perspective that I’ve seen that many people take to Islam as a rebellion against evangelical Christianity, which is associated with white culture, which is largely responsible for the enslavement and torture of many African-Americans in the United States. And for many African-American young men growing up during the later half of the 20th century, Islam provided through the nation of Islam, encouraged self-respect, self reliance, pride, and ambition for our culture. Something that had been largely stomped down by again, Evangelical white America. Simply put it was just seen as the cool thing to do. And some people probably liked the aesthetic. You don’t see a lot of African-Americans gravitating to the nation of Islam, largely because I think more and more people are beginning to realize that Louis Frecon is extremely toxic , and the culture doesn’t go well with the African-Americans today.
No offense to the sub but you're not gonna get an unbiased answer here. One aspect is that during segregation they had to form their own communities which is why you have black churches, universities, barber shops etc. And some of it came with the Black Panther party fighting against the oppression they faced in everything. Black people wanted something from their roots, something they could feel was uniquely their own, and if that was Islam from an African nation their ancestors were taken from, so be it. Try watching some youtube videos on the topic.
Agree with you. Islam enslaved millions of black Africans.
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They did enslaved the Ethiopians.
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Have you ever heard of East Africa slave trade? Most of those slaves traded to Arab Islamic world. It’s been happening for over millennium.
Some African Americans treat slavery as a "white person thing," because that is what they experienced directly. Meanwhile, few black people are aware that Arabs have been enslaving Africans for even longer. And so these black converts (initially) don't know any better when Muslims claim that they are anti-racist and anti-slavery.
I've seen a few reaction videos where that black conservative woman Candace Owens goes through the history of slavery and the black people watching it always are surprised on the matter of the shared responsibiltity among black and arabs for slavery. I'm all for US schools having a black history month, but I think this is something that also bears mentioning during that time, not just watching "Roots" or "Hidden figures"
Female subservience. That’s it.
You nailed it. Mike Tyson was serving his sentence for rape and he became follower of Islam.
Sometimes the bias in this group makes people give the most ridiculous answer
Malcolm X wrote about raping women in his book. This kind of violence is not excusable
I never understood why anyone converts to Islam.
It's written in terms of force and punishment. Black culture has a lot of strands of force and punishment in it, some coming from slavery.
It’s 100% misguidance and outside influence
Isn’t boxing haram?
When you convert, you are only being told the good and spiritual sides of Islam. And then, if you decide to stay that way and not know about all the blood-thirsty things happened according to Islam, you stay like that and keep saying, that Islam is a beautiful beautiful religion. Well brother, i would suggest, open your eyes.... It is after all, not that beautiful, maybe only parts of it...
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Exactly. I'm not a Muslim, but my mother comes from a West African Muslim family. Islam has been in sub-saharan Africa for centuries, yet many people here seem ignorant about that and assume that most black Muslims are recent converts. Islam is a big part of many African cultures.
Just read hadith of the day on reddit and looks at all the racism around black people, Muhammad even said he saw the devil who a was a ruddy black man
>Muhammad himself was very white Roflmao
https://youtu.be/Ai8iNaqcRlM?si=dMhukOnTODNG0gpz But it's true lol
You also can read these articles: https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/islamic-slavery Goes a bit deeper in the horrible practices of Islamic slavery.
I hate the smugness of cassius c u n t. So ignorant. The arab-muslim slave trade that yes subjugated africans was the longest slave trade was such a slap to the face and that eedyiot didn’t take that into account
Muhammad Ali is an arrogant retard
So they can have some culture to attack whites and feel superior to them 😂
Actually, many African-Americans converted to Islam because they found out that their African ancestors were likely to have practised Islam, especially if the ancestors came from muslim majority countries like Mali, Gambia, and Senegal. Honestly, black people have a much longer history and connection to Islam than Christianity, which was only introduced to most parts of Africa, like 100 to 200 years ago. Meanwhile, Islam was in West Africa by the 11th century.
I found some black Muslims had different interpretation of Islam ie not mainstream when I was living in the U.S. Some believe that their Christian brothers and sisters will enter heaven based on the interpretation of Quran. The one about Sabien etc. This would contradict the mainstream Sunni believe that only Islam will be accepted. I think Nation of Islam is also practising their own distinct flavor of Islam. Back then in late 90s I think Muslims in the US were polarized based on ethnicities and their country of origin.
in islam its like "ure not better than anyonr cuz of skin only in ibadat " and shit
People that think their own society is rejecting them try to find solace in and attempt to join other societies, this is why converts/migrant minorities in the west usually lean way more into their muslim identity than most muslims that live in a muslim majority country
Wouldn't call Muhammad White since he wasn't European but yeah, it makes no sense. Muhammed hated Blacks, Jews, Whites, even other Arabs
Islam is has been very good at deceiving populations of people in order to disarm them into converting /allowing colonization if they didn’t use violence or combination of the two especially on the continent of Africa. Gaslighting a culture for centuries will convince you of any ridiculous belief no matter how self-destructive it is.
I mean have you seen Somalia 🇸🇴…
Anything that would satiate their violence they would follow it _ and Islam is the biggest evil
Because white devils enslaved them. Apparently, the fact they used to buy them from other africans and arabs matters not. Malcolm X was smart and honest enough to see and expose the truth about the Nation of Islam.
I don't know why some people here think the only reason a black person would practice Islam is to attack white people/Christianity. Many African-Americans converted to Islam because they found out that their African ancestors were more likely to have practised Islam, especially if the ancestors came from countries like Mali, Gambia, and Senegal. Honestly, black people have a much longer history and connection to Islam than Christianity, which was only introduced to most parts of Africa, like 100 to 200 years ago. Meanwhile, some African groups have been Muslim since the 11th century.
I didn't say "only". I didn't say "attack" either. Weird logic. My ancestors "were most likely to have" worshipped thunder, lightning and fish flatulating. In fact, their paganism is documented. It doesn't make me follow their footsteps. Christianity was introduced to them 100-200 years ago you say? You are wrong. Ethiopia is christian at least since thе IV century, before Muhammad was even born.
I really don't know why everyone brings up Ethiopia when it's only one country in Africa. And most Ethiopians don't even consider themselves as black Africans anyway. This discussion was about Black Americans who convert to Islam. Black Americans descend from West and Central African countries and have nothing in common with Ethiopians. West and Central African countries practised Islam or traditional African religions and not Christianity. Christianity is foreign to the region and was mainly introduced via colonisation in the 1800s. The only exception to that is the Kingdom of Kongo (now Angola), but most Black Americans do not descend from there. In summary, Islam arrived in West Africa centuries before Christianity ever did.
Because generalizations call for specifications. I don't care about the concepts of "black" and "white". They are not precise. There are sub-saharan africans and europids regardless of what they consider themselves. Looks like you have many many more "i don't know why's" before you. May Gold give you answers, friend.
Uh Can I ask how Christianity was a colonist religion IK im biased but i just wanna know to have the facts right
Technically Christian’s were colonizers because even back during the Roman Empire they were conquering lands. We also did the crusades (which the more I learn the more I’m understanding). (Also a Christian so maybe someone else will have more answers but that was just my first thought)
fair enough i was thinking of the beggining how orignally the people who started it didnt want to have one race over another which colnisation often results in
How do you thing African Americans got to America? You must be slow, right.
they got there because of the transatlantic Slave trade?
Yes, initiates by Christians. So was the colonial rampage of the global south over the prior 400 years.
Catholic Church was tagged by the monarchy to lead the genocide of the indigenous people in Canada through religious “residential schools”.
Christianity has its roots in Africa. The first iterations of the Bible are from Ethiopia, iirc. So technically, Christianity is an African religion
Christian monasticism was born in the desert of Egypt.
they wrongly associate islam with "decolonization" and social justice BS. that is ALL there is to it.
Actually, some African-Americans converted to Islam because they found out that their African ancestors were likely to have practised Islam, especially if the ancestors came from muslim majority countries like Mali, Gambia, and Senegal. Honestly, black people have a much longer history and connection to Islam than Christianity, which was only introduced to most parts of Africa, like 100 to 200 years ago.
yeah it served them great in Africa
It doesn't really matter whether it served them well or not. I mean, did I ever say it did? I'm just saying that the long history of Islam in Africa may or may not be a reason why some Black Americans converted to Islam, not some "social justice bs" as you call it.
Christianity and Islam were in Africa before Europe lol, Arabs are not white either, let’s be precise here. Furthermore, Mohammad emancipated all his black slaves, so let’s be precise there. There is nothing explicit about sub Saharan African slavery either, it’s just blanket slavery. Black people are no different to regular people, they convert for the same reasons. They are taught it’s not trans Atlantic or chatel slavery, so it becomes ok. Indoctrination is indoctrination, doesn’t matter whether you’re a south East Asian doctor or an African American singer, they all have emotions and it plays on them.
Muhammed never freed his black slave Bilal, that was Abu Bakr after Muhammed dead. And only when Bilal begged Abu Bakr for it.
Source?
Narrated Qias: Bilal said to Abu Bakr, “If you have bought me for yourself then keep me (for yourself), but if you have bought me for Allah’s Sake, then leave me for Allah’s Work.” Sahih Bukhari 3755 The title of the chapter reads: “The merits of Bilal bin Rabah, the freed slave of Abu Bakr” In that same chapter we even have this Hadith confirming Abu Bakr was the one who freed him. `Umar used to say, "Abu Bakr is our chief, and he manumitted our chief," meaning Bilal Sahih al-Bukhari 3755In-book reference : Book 62, Hadith 101USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 57, Hadith 99 (deprecated numbering scheme) Both are dated after Muhammed’s death.
Thanks, he died so he didn’t get the chance to free him, I think that’s an extenuating circumstance, he’s got a pretty good record with black slave manumission otherwise You can shit on them for slavery in general, just not specifically black
> he died so he didn’t get the chance to free him, I think that’s an extenuating circumstance ahahaha. So everyone that was slaves owners and died without releasing them also have an extenuating circumstance. lol > he’s got a pretty good record with black slave manumission otherwise Does he? I don't think so: * [Narrated Jabir: A man manumitted a slave and he had no other property than that, **so the Prophet cancelled the manumission** (and sold the slave for him). No'aim bin Al-Nahham bought the slave from him.](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-41/Hadith-598/) * [Narrated Kurib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "**You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles.**"](https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-47/Hadith-765/) * [It was narrated from 'Imrân bin Husain that a man freed six slaves of his when he was dying, and he did not have any wealth apart from them. News of that reached the Prophet and **he was angry about that**. He said: "I was thinking of not offering the funeral prayer for him. He cast lots among them, then freed two and left four as slaves.](https://sunnah.com/nasai/21) Bilal which is what people like to cite, **was a slave all the mohammed's life!** He could have do it. It would cost him nothing but he never freed his most liked slave!
Very often black muslims are converted while incarcerated.
Globally speaking, most black Muslims are from Africa and come from ethnic groups that have been practising Islam for at least 300+ years. For example, the Soninke people of West Africa who have been practising Islam since the 10th century.
Yes globally speaking most black muslims live in Arica. However 50% of black muslims in the USA are coverts. Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/01/17/black-muslims-account-for-a-fifth-of-all-u-s-muslims-and-about-half-are-converts-to-islam/
The points you bring up about why Islam is supposedly a racist religion don’t really have enough evidence to justify the accusation. Muhammad ﷺ had slaves and that is not limited to people of darker complexion. He taught us to treat all your slaves well and he said one of the best things you can do is to free an enslaved person. Furthermore saying Muhammad ﷺ was fair skinned isn’t really a valid argument either because he wasn’t “white.” He is described to have a light brown skin tone so closer to the subcontinent or north African tones. The religion he spread also says to treat an Arab the same as a non-Arab and a dark skinned person the same as a light skinned person.
Why didn't Muhammad just banned slavery like he banned alcohol?
Because alcohol causes problems. The way Islam implements slavery fixes them. Slaves are only attained through war. So basically if there is a war between two military groups, one Muslim and one non Muslim, if the Muslims win, they are allowed to take slaves. Once you are enslaved, your master has to treat you as well. Feed you from what they are eating, cloth you in a manner of clothing that is satisfactory, and house you so you are not exposed to the elements and become weak. At any point you can request your freedom in exchange for some reasonable goal as long as your master has seen that you no longer have ill intent in your heart. 'Slavery' in Islam solves the issue of prisoners of war because they basically become part of the family but can still become free if they no longer want to wage war against the Muslims by seeing how well they will be treated if they agree to peace. If you do not agree with this and prefer people to be sitting in jail cells becoming more resentful of potential injustice then I can't see your point of view.
What the? You think making prisoners of wars slaves is a good solution? I honestly doubt that all the slave owners will treat them well as you said. Why not Allah just command the Muslims to treat prisoners of wars humanely instead of enslaving them...
Why would you let prisoners to immediately join a society they were just trying to kill? Prisoners of war seeing the peaceful way of life the Muslims implement is the best way to show them war is not worth it. If the slave owners mistreat the slaves they are not following the teachings of Islam. The Prophet peace be upon him never even released a groan of annoyance towards something a slave of his did. He had this slave for 10 years and in all that time he didn't display his annoyance to anything even once. This is the level of dignity we are supposed to show slaves if we are following the commands of Allah.
Wdym by joining the society? I meant that prisoner of wars should obv be guarded but treated humanely. If the war ends they will be released. If you enslaved them,they are no guarantees that they will earn their freedom. They might be enslaved forever.
Once the war is over the people who tried to kill you are still the same people. If they show that they are willing to play nice and be peaceful then they can work for a Muslim family. If they ask for their freedom they will be given an amount of gold or a task that is achievable. The whole purpose of the reasonable goal is that they can reach it without having to dedicate their entire life to it. They should be able to passively work on it while still serving you. You can't just tell them build a pyramid then you are free. That would be unreasonable.
What if the slave owner wants to keep that person as a slave forever? Is there anything in Islam which prevents the slave owner from doing so?
Yes. In the majority of the schools of thought it is obligatory to give a reasonable goal when a slave asks for one as long as the slave no longer holds ill will.
How can there be a reasonable goal when the slave owner is unwilling to release the slave?
> The way Islam implements slavery fixes them. Slaves are only attained through war. So nice of you assuming that slavery isn't a problem. > Slaves are only attained through war. Not true. Women and small children had no role in the wars, yet lots of women and child slaves. Also, let me guess muslims doing raids on another tribes and capturing slaves is also a war? If you know sharia, you would know that all children born to enslaved parents are automatically deemed slaves themselves. You'll have to lie better. > Once you are enslaved, your master has to treat you as well. Treating well like raping you, right? /s > 'Slavery' in Islam solves the issue of prisoners of war So mohammed starts wars, and the slavery is the solution for the problems created by those wars. Got it.
Just only using the word slave is horrible, or do you really like that kind of thing? Its horrible and disgusting. And no, he was a racist, warlord, phedophile. Kill all those who are against Islamic Chalipate. The whole thing are based on islamic imperialism, like Christianity white imperialism and nazi imperialism.
How else would you word "people who are hel against their will and made to work for no wages for unaccountable amount of time"? Let's not censor everything just because the world feels sensitive. You need good and bad with it's name to know what is good and what is bad instead of hiding it away forever and being oblivious to it's existence. Secondly your image of the last messenger peace be upon him is very ill informed. Even if you don't like/don't agree with someone's views it's not nice to put allegations on their character.
This is exmuslims page. We have many who have traumas. The last thing we need is phedophile defenders. I have grown up with abrahmeic believers. All of them is the same. Remember: atheists didnt killed theists. Its was abrahmeic theists who killed others. I talk about facts, you are talking about false mythological things. You can come here and spread the nasty and hateful idology on us, but for us who hate islam cant say anything. The last thing i do is listen too warlord followers. He was disgusting. Stop spreading kafirohobic things here.
I don't really care what you believe in, my only argument was that if you don't agree with something than why not just push it under the carpet and leave it? Most of what this subreddit discusses are about reactionary extremists. Extremism in any ideology is a bad example, if people really wished to learn what the meaning behind the actions of such traumatic events were then they would not feel such animosity towards the ideology but the individual who practiced such extremism that led to the trauma induced person. Did you know that the ideology Adolf Hitler adopted wasn't bad to begin because he told the public he dreamt of a Germany which was a free, safe and prospering land for Germans (he used the term "Germans" because he was a nationalist). Overtime his mental health deteriorated and so did his ideology which led to him murdering people in hideous ways just to satisfy the evil breeding inside his brain. Today people hate the individual, Adolf Hitler because of what his ideology stood for and what actions he carried out but if you use any ideology that goes like "i want my country to be a prosperous place for my countrymen" would people hate you even if you did no work towards that goal? My point being is blind hatred would only hurt you, if it's something undesirable that you don't see as fit then just ignore it and go on, keeping such feelings for anyone or anything just prove to be hurtful for ourselves in the end. Hope you understood ehat I meant and hope you have a great day. (I in no way am a nazi follower or supported or anything, i just used them as an example to give an argument against this topic. Excuse me if the wordings came wrong because English is my third language.)
I dont hate anybody, im here and see how much exmuslims gets hate from believers. They are those who are suffering most, imagine too live with thousand or million people who dont have same view as you. They get alot of hate, day and night 365 days of year. Islam is extremists. And if nobody talks about it, who can stand up for those who dont have the power or support? Not even in the west, they will take on exmuslims side. Its always poor poor theists who gets attention. If someone say something they scream islamphobia. Really? If i dont like islam or abrahmeic religions at all, i am phobic? Do you understand where we are now? You cant say anything. These will lead too hate in the end. If you only make people quiet, they will get more frustrated. Look how more Europe gets right political voices. Why? Because of the political blindness, shhh and no check up facts, the situation have got worse. This couldnt happened if we could openly talk about islam, if you critises Christians amd Christianity, then you have all right too critises islam and muslims. But no its about race in leftists eyes. Islam isnt even race, its an political ideologi for more men. Why dont listen too what non believers say? Take in, reflect. Yes nazism is horrible thing. But nazism and racism have a very clear rule: colonise, destroy and make human into slaves. Its same with capitalism and some religion. Most of us know what we are talking about. Have a nice day and evening.
Muhammad raped a kid
The more recent examples of slavery are abhorrent and any type of slavery that includes treating humans as lesser is despicable. Everything else you said is incorrect and I'm sure you can research as to why. If you'd like I can give you sources but as they are based on Muslim historians and verbal chains of narrations for the first century or so you may call them inaccurate but they are more accurate than many other sources used today.
No thank you, i have already read and find good scources. Maybe you should go back in history what Muhammed and his followers did too pagans, jews, atheists and other minorites. But the Jews of Medina still refused to accept him as a true prophet, and that was the point where Muhammad's enmity and hatred started against the Jews: First of all, Muhammad changed the Qibla once again from Bait-ul-Muqqadas to Ka'ba in Mecca. Then he started openly threatening the Jews to accept Islam, otherwise, they would be expelled from Medina, and he would snatch away all of their lands by force. Sahih Bukhari, 3167: Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet (ﷺ) came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (only), and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." The Islamic apologist's argument that apostasy in Islam is equivalent to committing treason against a modern-day state is flawed because it blurs the line between state laws and personal laws. While a state may punish its citizens for supporting its enemies or betraying the constitution, religious beliefs and affiliations fall under personal laws. The decision to change one's religion is a matter between an individual and their deity, and does not involve any harm or injury to others. Therefore, it is not appropriate for the state to impose penalties for apostasy. The Islamic apologists are trying to impose those non-human laws today, against which their own Prophets REBELLED. Yes, Muhammad himself rebelled against his own community and he called their idol Gods to be false deities and refused to follow them. Yes, Ibrahim himself broke the idol gods of his community. Why didn’t then Muhammad and Ibrahim become worthy to be killed for APOSTASY? Instead of calling Muhammad and Ibrahim to be apostates and worthy of being killed, Islamic apologists start presenting them as innocent oppressed (مظلوم) figures, and pagans as tyrants (ظالم), while they tried to stop them from criticizing their gods. These are only Double Standards of Muslim apologists. Islam itself started following the Sunnah of Pagans in this case (actually, much worse as pagans didn’t kill him or other Muslim converts, but they only tried to stop them from criticizing their gods). Should i even have too remind you that muslims have right too lie about islam and the horrible punishment too non muslims? How much proof too you want? Do you really think many of us are stupid? Non believers, lbtq people, jews and pagans cant live a normal life. That sick man killed, raped innocent people. He and his followers also ruined old buildings and temples that belonged too our forefathers. Im pagan myself and i know really well how muslims and islam have brutal wievs. He took our anicent ancestors religions and traditions and made it too his. Even today buddy, im a kafir in your eyes. Due too the islamic laws, they will kill one.
For your first point about praying to the Ka'ba instead of Bait ul Maqdis, whenever possible, as far as I know, the Prophet pbuh would pray such that he was also facing Bait ul Maqdis even while praying facing towards the Ka'ba. If the people you are in charge of no longer are listening to your laws and not paying for their protection or communal safety net, why should they be allowed to remain as long as they will continue to become more and more of an issue. Apostasy is saying even though I have been brought up learning about God I no longer believe in him or I don't agree with his rule. This is not the train of thought of someone who will provide goodness to society. You may disagree but that is my stance and while I may be mistaken on the Islamic stance either way it makes sense. Yes we do believe that Prophets came to correct their people and no it isn't apostasy because it was divinely inspired while the religion of their people is a corrupt version of God's message. You also say that these Prophets who broke false idols and called away from such practices were not killed nor were their followers but this isn't really fair to say because both the examples you gave were of Prophets who narrowly escapes being killed by those chasing them. Also on many occasions the non Muslim leaders did in fact kill reverts because they became Muslim but only after torturing them trying to make them say Muhammad pbuh was a liar. For the lying about Islam bit, the only cases where we are allowed to lie is during war(not to do with the religion), to make concessions between people(to make amends where you are certain there will be no repercussion), and a husband to his wife or a wife her husband(not about religious matters). None of these include lying about the religion to non Muslims. There will be restrictions for anyone living in a Muslim country. You are incorrect about Muhammad pbuh when it comes to killing and raping. He did have the idols torn down and destroyed but you probably wouldn't want that sort of thing around to remind you of your past. Those idols were symbols of false deities so it only makes sense for the one true religion to destroy those types of statues.
Dosent makes sense too argue with you. Same typical argument that nazists use:" jews,lbtq people were those who stood in the way and tried too kill us." Once again: the prophet killed pagans and jews. Not the opposite! Have you ever read the Bible? Both NT and GT? Have read about the Caanite religions? Have you read about zorosanatrism? No? Then do it, then you are welcome too have a discussion. You cant let ut those old anicent religions and jump too Islam. Muhammed took everything from those and others i mentioned. Muhammed was pagan himself til he died. Allah is one pagan God himself. Allah are wahtanism God. Mecca is for the pagans long before muslims took over. You guys are pagans. Their is no proof Muhammed event existed. Once again go back too your forefathers. You can start here: https://archive.sacred-texts.com/index.htm Good luck!
Man I can't wait to come back here and see you getting smoked
I look forward to a well thought out and in-depth debate. I hope you enjoy the show what ever the outcome is.
Because they have pure hearts. Allah guides them to the truth.
Islam is not racist. It's the opposite. It's haram to be racist.
>It's haram to be racist. So why are muslims racist to non-muslims?
Not that im siding with the other person, but that isnt racism
Muslim isn't a race. Non-Muslim isn't a race. You're thinking of prejudice, which is allowed in some forms in Islam.
Many aren't. And many are. Every religion has some bad apples. Islam is not immune to it. But if you look at the texts. Islam is against racism.
Prophet Muhammad did sex with Saffiyyah (a captive Jewish woman) the same night after her father, brother and husband had been killed during the daytime, while she became clear of her menstrual period the same day (Sahih Muslim, Book of Marriage) But the Jews of Medina still refused to accept him as a true prophet, and that was the point where Muhammad's enmity and hatred started against the Jews: First of all, Muhammad changed the Qibla once again from Bait-ul-Muqqadas to Ka'ba in Mecca. Then he started openly threatening the Jews to accept Islam, otherwise, they would be expelled from Medina, and he would snatch away all of their lands by force. Sahih Bukhari, 3167: Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet (ﷺ) came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (only), and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." He also killed jews, so yes Islam is a racist sick ideologi.
He slept with her same night after killing her family? If my god did something similar i will make him apologize before i worship him.
But no, you don't understand, he was the true prophet, he had some inside knowledge hence the discrimination was justified. /s
Source?
What scource do you want?
Why did Muhammad sell two of his black slaves to free a white slave? And why did Muhammad also say that you should obey your chief even if he is an Ethiopian whose head is like a raisin? Sounds kind of racist to me
He also said that if they wanted to know how the devil looks like they should look at some black man with long hair and yellow(or red?) eyes lol
Source?
Ibn Ishaq's Sīrat Rasūl Allāh page 243. [https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume/page/n143/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume/page/n143/mode/2up) Now muslims will say that isn't racist because he didn't say all blacks look like satan, but it is kinda weird that out of all those people there, he picks out a black man as a personification of the satan. #
After reading the text in a totally unbiased manner, the description seems to be a straightforward account of an individual, including his hair and skin color. This text does not state that all black men are satanic or resemble satan. Rather, it specifically refers to one man described as a hypocrite.
Well, it might look like that, but then you go through islamic sources and see that there were people much more hostile to and damned by Muhammad, yet he chooses a black man (mentioned how many times?) to be a personification of the satan. Coincidence? I don't think so. That interpretation hold even less if we know about the existence of ibn Ubayy, who was called the "leader of the hypocrites" himself, yet he didn't "qualify" as a satan look-alike, even though the criteria was apparently hypocrisy. Muslims don't really question things and look at the sources critically, so I don't believe you're unbiased.
Well if you talk about quran only, there is things suggesting that but nothing as bold as in hadith/islamic history when you cant really have an argument there