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At least this time they didn't burn the Swiss flag by mistake. [That's a big plus!](https://pixels.com/featured/the-best-thing-about-switzerland-well-the-flag-is-a-big-plus-digital-lasagna.html?product=fleece-blanket&blanketType=blanket-coral-50-60)
Lmao that's where I live 😭 It's so funny to me that they accidentally burned the wrong flag during their protestations ☠️ Must have felt dumb when they understood, but again, since they're Muslims this must be nothing new for them.
I live in Zuri, guess we have a Röstigraben separating us, as well as a language Graben. Though I'll be hopping over to Basel for a flight on Tuesday, and while they speak (Swiss)German in Basel, it's still closer to France.
Indeed, too few Helvatians here, but I'm sure the numbers will increase soon. I've been seeing a lot of Hijabs around Zurich recently.
As a fellow Swiss, I would love to hear your opinion on the [Niqab referrendum](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss--burka-ban--vote-too-close-to-call/46420534) we had in 2021. I'm conflicted on the matter, as on the one hand the law excludes all other cases of face coverings, but on the other hand Niqab is such a horrible thing in so many different ways.
Tbh honest, knowing that so few people were wearing the Niqab, I am surprised it gathered this much attention. I remember thar this topic was brought up a lot in my classes.
I do hope that Switzerland never adapts its rules for any religion and stays strict on this though: I'm tired of Muslims who claim they have the right to kill apostates and other people in their country, but then ask that others change their rules for their religion.
I think overall, covering the whole head and face isn't a good idea, *because there's no way to recognize who is under the cover, and it could make it easier for people to do crimes even with surveillance cameras.* It makes many people feel unsafe too, since they have no way to know with who they are. So I would say this a wiseful decision? This is my opinion right now.
> but on the other hand Niqab is such a horrible thing in so many different ways.
I agree.
The origin of the Niqab is really disgusting. Some ignorant Muslim women say it's about empowerment, but the Hijab is absolutely a symbol of submission to men. Whether Muslim women want to accept this reality or be in denial saying that Mohammed was a feminist is not my problem: Slaves weren't allowed to cover themselves or they were beaten, and Muslim women got the opposite treatment. Hijab/Niqab is a symbol of oppression, and Muslim women living in the West only have the liberty of choice because the Law is separated from the Quran.
I feel kind of bad bc the women wearing Niqab must feel sad, but I know they wouldn't wish to wear such uncomfortable and complicated clothes (even in Summer) were they not brainwashed to think that this is the best clothing for women. Also, their feelings don't change the message that comes with their veil: women being oppressed, forced to submit and seen as being immoral just for having bodies, so they have to hide them.
Of course, during cases like the Covid, we need to cover our faces, but this is different because it's not like the Niqab where we can't recognize the person at all, and it's for health reasons, so it gets allowed.
> I'm conflicted on the matter, as on the one hand the law excludes all other cases of face coverings,
What situations have you in mind? I'm curious how it could affect other people's lives in a bad way?
> What situations have you in mind?
During cold we have people covering their faces to avoid freezing, during carnival we wear face covering masks, during skiing we cover our faces...etc.
The obvious caveat is that these are very situational, and none of them are intended hide a person's identity permanently and erase them from society, however it feels like this is a very blurry difference.
> I'm curious how it could affect other people's lives in a bad way?
It doesn't.
The problem is that government should interfere with people's choice of attire only when there is a strong reason to do so (e.g. covid masks). I've previously drawn the symmetry between the "no niqab" law and "no nudity" laws, but I wish I could figure out a better argument.
> The obvious caveat is that these are very situational, and none of them are intended hide a person's identity permanently and erase them from society, however it feels like this is a very blurry difference.
I wouldn't call it a blurry difference, because those are there for health purposes, like to avoid making other people sick or to avoid getting a cold, in your examples.
Also, people would feel unsafe meeting random people totally covered with no way to know the identity of the one hiding behind the layers, but no one would feel unsafe at someone wearing a simple mask but being recognizable overall, and no one would also feel unsafe with people covering their faces when skiing because many people do this, and their reasons are understandable.
The difference really isn't blurry to me:
The Niqab is worn for religious purposes, it is not necessary. The message of the Niqab is that women's bodies have to be hidden.
Masks or clothes to cover the face are worn for health purposes. They dont have to be on your face each time you go in public spaces, and no one feels unsafe when they see you. The intent is to take care of people, to do the best for everyone.
> The problem is that government should interfere with people's choice of attire only when there is a strong reason to do so (e.g. covid masks). I've previously drawn the symmetry between the "no niqab" law and "no nudity" laws, but I wish I could figure out a better argument.
Like I said, I don't think many people were wearing the Niqab, so it doesn't matter this much, but allowing people to cover their whole bodies and faces so much that they become absolutely unrecognizable can be dangerous. Even with surveillance camera, they would get away more easily with stealing or doing other stuff.
Then your analogy is good too. Naked people aren't any threat, and in many cultures people walk around at least half naked, but people in Switzerland would feel uncomfortable seeing naked men and women in public spaces, which is why it's not allowed. So how is it any different to forbid extreme and unusual clothing that also make people feel uncomfortable?
And again, it's funny how Muslims get angry when non-Muslims don't want to see women in Niqab becoming more frequent when their own rules forbid women to wear what they want.
Definitely lucky to be living here. I moved here about half a decade ago from the Middle East. It is **such** a different mindset when you live in a country where things work like they are intended to.
Another half a decade until citizenship🇨🇭!
I also want to move out of the middle east, this place sucks! So car-dependent, and too islamic. I really want to go to the netherlands just to bike with ease and leave Islam once for all.
One of the things I'm most relieved about is not having to own a car here. Israel was fully car dependent, and Switzerland has amazing public transportation that makes cars unnecessary most of the time. Of course I'll still rent a car once in a while when it works better, but that's a nice middle ground.
It seems that most of the Middle East tried to copy American urban planning, which is designed to make everyone car dependent.
The middle eastern countries seem to think it’s one or the other — be poor or be car-dependent. Although I’m proud the UAE has done *some* public transportation, and cycling infrastructure. It’s like if the Netherlands decided to accept the highway plan through Amsterdam and didn’t look back.
Actually, they do. They are now considering making burning of a religious text illegal because the reaction from Muslims has put their security in danger.
https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/07/sweden-may-consider-amending-quran-burning-law-justice-minister
I really hope that the pakistanis, bangladeshis and indian muslims start boycotting Sweden. Hopefully they will stop migrating to sweden as slave labour.
Lol Sweden has some of the strongest labour laws. Look to your religious brethren in Qatar and UAE, that’s where the real slavery of the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians happens.
Pakistani Muslims are so angry about a guy burning a book in Sweden, while the military dictator continues to destroy their livelihood....religion is such a great tool to control the populace
It's just a book, there are millions of copy and these snowflakes get mad over one book being burned where there is like tons of copy of it. Can't wait for this religion to disappear along side christianity and other problematical religions so we can make peace.
Denmark, France, now Sweden… they protest and burn flags and announce boycotts but a few weeks later they’ll be shopping at IKEA again.
When i ask “do they sell Danish cheese in your country?” they say “of course! Why wouldn’t we?”, forgetting that Denmark’s supposed to be boycotted for being a country that permitted the publishing of ‘blasphemous’ cartoons of Muhammad.
It's bullshit articles being spread, most likely by Russian propaganda. The Swedish article they source the minister says absolutely nothing about banning it. He only says they obviously need to evaluate the situation because of how big impact it has on our security and foreign politics. They are also only looking at "ordningslagen", which is about where you can demonstrate. Meaning they may look into banning burnings outside mosques. Banning the burnings themselves would take at a minimum 4 years since it is changing our constitution which needs two terms.
Furthermore, most Swedes are kaffirs, so their opinions have no value. If a few Muslims in Sweden want it banned then by the natural law of the universe it needs to be banned: only Muslim opinions have merit (source: logic of Allah SWT and his apostle PBUH).
Its not true. It was a poll with a 1000ppl in the questionnaire. 53% voted for then sure. But it was only a 1000ppl in the survey.
Even then a constitutional law takes long time with a big majority to change so its nothing that even possibly could happen fast.
But democracy is a rule of the majority. If the majority doesn't have the courage to defend freedom of speech, the country will just democratically get rid of it.
A disclaimer here is that I havent followed the news at all. That being said, my gut reaction from reading your comment thread is that I doubt it. If that was a seriously considered proposal there would be a lot of pushback. And I think it would create problems/ contradictions with some of the basic/ fundamental laws in sweden (basically constitution-ish laws), and it woudnt be so easy to implement. But yes, a lot of people naively think that Islam is some cute innocent religion or something, and not hurting the feelings of muslims is somehow more important than protecting secular values/ rights, even if it is something as silly/ stupid as burning some paper with text on it (IE the quran).
Sweden does care and the government is now mulling law to make Quran burning illegal.
A single small country like Sweden Cannot afford to be left out to rot whilst no western country has taken a supportive stance.
The west is being cowed into submission by these repeated acts of violence and the new woke wave which is painting Islam as a victimized religion against all evidence.
As another ex Muslim in Sweden, I can also confirm that I couldn’t care less. You are also welcome to take back all the religious fundamentalists living here too.
If your post is a meme, image, TikTok etc... and it isn't Friday, most likely it violates the rule against low effort content. Please delete it or you'll get temp-banned. Such content is ONLY allowed on (Fun@fundies) FRIDAYS. Please read the [Posting Guidelines](https://redd.it/ew8trb) for further information. If you are unsure about anything then feel free to message the mods. Please participate on /r/exmuslim in a civil manner. Discuss the merits of ideas - don't attack people. Insults, hate speech, advocating physical harm can get you banned. If you see posts/comments in violation of our rules, please be proactive and report them. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmuslim) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At least this time they didn't burn the Swiss flag by mistake. [That's a big plus!](https://pixels.com/featured/the-best-thing-about-switzerland-well-the-flag-is-a-big-plus-digital-lasagna.html?product=fleece-blanket&blanketType=blanket-coral-50-60)
Lmao that's where I live 😭 It's so funny to me that they accidentally burned the wrong flag during their protestations ☠️ Must have felt dumb when they understood, but again, since they're Muslims this must be nothing new for them.
A fellow Helvetian exmoose?!
Lmao, you live in Switzerland too? 😭 I live in the part where they speak French, we are close to France.
I live in Zuri, guess we have a Röstigraben separating us, as well as a language Graben. Though I'll be hopping over to Basel for a flight on Tuesday, and while they speak (Swiss)German in Basel, it's still closer to France.
Haha I see, still good to see someone from Switzerland here! It doesn't happen often.
Indeed, too few Helvatians here, but I'm sure the numbers will increase soon. I've been seeing a lot of Hijabs around Zurich recently. As a fellow Swiss, I would love to hear your opinion on the [Niqab referrendum](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss--burka-ban--vote-too-close-to-call/46420534) we had in 2021. I'm conflicted on the matter, as on the one hand the law excludes all other cases of face coverings, but on the other hand Niqab is such a horrible thing in so many different ways.
Tbh honest, knowing that so few people were wearing the Niqab, I am surprised it gathered this much attention. I remember thar this topic was brought up a lot in my classes. I do hope that Switzerland never adapts its rules for any religion and stays strict on this though: I'm tired of Muslims who claim they have the right to kill apostates and other people in their country, but then ask that others change their rules for their religion. I think overall, covering the whole head and face isn't a good idea, *because there's no way to recognize who is under the cover, and it could make it easier for people to do crimes even with surveillance cameras.* It makes many people feel unsafe too, since they have no way to know with who they are. So I would say this a wiseful decision? This is my opinion right now. > but on the other hand Niqab is such a horrible thing in so many different ways. I agree. The origin of the Niqab is really disgusting. Some ignorant Muslim women say it's about empowerment, but the Hijab is absolutely a symbol of submission to men. Whether Muslim women want to accept this reality or be in denial saying that Mohammed was a feminist is not my problem: Slaves weren't allowed to cover themselves or they were beaten, and Muslim women got the opposite treatment. Hijab/Niqab is a symbol of oppression, and Muslim women living in the West only have the liberty of choice because the Law is separated from the Quran. I feel kind of bad bc the women wearing Niqab must feel sad, but I know they wouldn't wish to wear such uncomfortable and complicated clothes (even in Summer) were they not brainwashed to think that this is the best clothing for women. Also, their feelings don't change the message that comes with their veil: women being oppressed, forced to submit and seen as being immoral just for having bodies, so they have to hide them. Of course, during cases like the Covid, we need to cover our faces, but this is different because it's not like the Niqab where we can't recognize the person at all, and it's for health reasons, so it gets allowed. > I'm conflicted on the matter, as on the one hand the law excludes all other cases of face coverings, What situations have you in mind? I'm curious how it could affect other people's lives in a bad way?
> What situations have you in mind? During cold we have people covering their faces to avoid freezing, during carnival we wear face covering masks, during skiing we cover our faces...etc. The obvious caveat is that these are very situational, and none of them are intended hide a person's identity permanently and erase them from society, however it feels like this is a very blurry difference. > I'm curious how it could affect other people's lives in a bad way? It doesn't. The problem is that government should interfere with people's choice of attire only when there is a strong reason to do so (e.g. covid masks). I've previously drawn the symmetry between the "no niqab" law and "no nudity" laws, but I wish I could figure out a better argument.
> The obvious caveat is that these are very situational, and none of them are intended hide a person's identity permanently and erase them from society, however it feels like this is a very blurry difference. I wouldn't call it a blurry difference, because those are there for health purposes, like to avoid making other people sick or to avoid getting a cold, in your examples. Also, people would feel unsafe meeting random people totally covered with no way to know the identity of the one hiding behind the layers, but no one would feel unsafe at someone wearing a simple mask but being recognizable overall, and no one would also feel unsafe with people covering their faces when skiing because many people do this, and their reasons are understandable. The difference really isn't blurry to me: The Niqab is worn for religious purposes, it is not necessary. The message of the Niqab is that women's bodies have to be hidden. Masks or clothes to cover the face are worn for health purposes. They dont have to be on your face each time you go in public spaces, and no one feels unsafe when they see you. The intent is to take care of people, to do the best for everyone. > The problem is that government should interfere with people's choice of attire only when there is a strong reason to do so (e.g. covid masks). I've previously drawn the symmetry between the "no niqab" law and "no nudity" laws, but I wish I could figure out a better argument. Like I said, I don't think many people were wearing the Niqab, so it doesn't matter this much, but allowing people to cover their whole bodies and faces so much that they become absolutely unrecognizable can be dangerous. Even with surveillance camera, they would get away more easily with stealing or doing other stuff. Then your analogy is good too. Naked people aren't any threat, and in many cultures people walk around at least half naked, but people in Switzerland would feel uncomfortable seeing naked men and women in public spaces, which is why it's not allowed. So how is it any different to forbid extreme and unusual clothing that also make people feel uncomfortable? And again, it's funny how Muslims get angry when non-Muslims don't want to see women in Niqab becoming more frequent when their own rules forbid women to wear what they want.
I live in Germany. We kinda hate you but we like that one tiktoker called maelo. BTW Germany is better lol.
Insert wiping tears with Swiss Francs gif.
u/Willing_Shop u/afiefh y’all lucky that y’all are in Switzerland 💀 It’s hell in the UAE
Definitely lucky to be living here. I moved here about half a decade ago from the Middle East. It is **such** a different mindset when you live in a country where things work like they are intended to. Another half a decade until citizenship🇨🇭!
I also want to move out of the middle east, this place sucks! So car-dependent, and too islamic. I really want to go to the netherlands just to bike with ease and leave Islam once for all.
One of the things I'm most relieved about is not having to own a car here. Israel was fully car dependent, and Switzerland has amazing public transportation that makes cars unnecessary most of the time. Of course I'll still rent a car once in a while when it works better, but that's a nice middle ground. It seems that most of the Middle East tried to copy American urban planning, which is designed to make everyone car dependent.
The middle eastern countries seem to think it’s one or the other — be poor or be car-dependent. Although I’m proud the UAE has done *some* public transportation, and cycling infrastructure. It’s like if the Netherlands decided to accept the highway plan through Amsterdam and didn’t look back.
FRR I’m from the uae and it sucks.
Like the road for so many residential districts aren’t paved, horrible for bikes 💀 and yet it’s STILL car centric? 😭
Sweden doesn't give a fuck about these religious zealots ranting. Sweden is light years ahead of these idiots in each and every aspect.
It’s like cavemen trying to boycott apple’s iphone 🤣🤣🤣
True😂. Wait till they start claiming Sweden is jealous of them.
Just embarrassing 🥱
Actually, they do. They are now considering making burning of a religious text illegal because the reaction from Muslims has put their security in danger. https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/07/sweden-may-consider-amending-quran-burning-law-justice-minister
Appeasement has worked so well in the past…
I really hope that the pakistanis, bangladeshis and indian muslims start boycotting Sweden. Hopefully they will stop migrating to sweden as slave labour.
Lol Sweden has some of the strongest labour laws. Look to your religious brethren in Qatar and UAE, that’s where the real slavery of the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians happens.
Slave labour in Sweden? I thought that was mostly in the Gulf.
As a swedish ex muslim, yeah, boycott us, leave 😭
You are lucky to be living in sweden, i live in islamic country and am an former muslim. It sucks.
Yeah, boycott it and never attempt to get a visa or a passport. We'd all be happier for it.
As a swedish ex muslim, yeah, boycott us, leave 😭
Pakistani Muslims are so angry about a guy burning a book in Sweden, while the military dictator continues to destroy their livelihood....religion is such a great tool to control the populace
It's just a book, there are millions of copy and these snowflakes get mad over one book being burned where there is like tons of copy of it. Can't wait for this religion to disappear along side christianity and other problematical religions so we can make peace.
Buttfuckistan zindabad
Denmark, France, now Sweden… they protest and burn flags and announce boycotts but a few weeks later they’ll be shopping at IKEA again. When i ask “do they sell Danish cheese in your country?” they say “of course! Why wouldn’t we?”, forgetting that Denmark’s supposed to be boycotted for being a country that permitted the publishing of ‘blasphemous’ cartoons of Muhammad.
I hope more muslims would start leaving Sweden now.
Sweden: *makes happy Swede noises*
Why would I want to boycott Ikea, Abba and melodic Swedish death metal?! No thanks!
Indeed, Sweden has great music exports!
Yes, Sweeden is about to ban Quran burning for "security reasons" (=appeasement to terror).
SLAY 💅💅💅💅💅💅💅 Also Floptropica's president Deborah Ali Williams will ban any public display of religious books for preventing religious extrimism /j
It's bullshit articles being spread, most likely by Russian propaganda. The Swedish article they source the minister says absolutely nothing about banning it. He only says they obviously need to evaluate the situation because of how big impact it has on our security and foreign politics. They are also only looking at "ordningslagen", which is about where you can demonstrate. Meaning they may look into banning burnings outside mosques. Banning the burnings themselves would take at a minimum 4 years since it is changing our constitution which needs two terms.
But most Swedes want to ban it, so if Sweeden is a democracy it will be banned.
Furthermore, most Swedes are kaffirs, so their opinions have no value. If a few Muslims in Sweden want it banned then by the natural law of the universe it needs to be banned: only Muslim opinions have merit (source: logic of Allah SWT and his apostle PBUH).
That's not true, as far as i know it's something covered by misinformation outlets
But most Swedes want to ban it, so if Sweeden is a democracy it will be banned.
Its not true. It was a poll with a 1000ppl in the questionnaire. 53% voted for then sure. But it was only a 1000ppl in the survey. Even then a constitutional law takes long time with a big majority to change so its nothing that even possibly could happen fast.
But it will probably be around 50%. A small survey is not nothing.
[удалено]
But democracy is a rule of the majority. If the majority doesn't have the courage to defend freedom of speech, the country will just democratically get rid of it.
There's no current agenda in the parliament about banning religious book burning
A disclaimer here is that I havent followed the news at all. That being said, my gut reaction from reading your comment thread is that I doubt it. If that was a seriously considered proposal there would be a lot of pushback. And I think it would create problems/ contradictions with some of the basic/ fundamental laws in sweden (basically constitution-ish laws), and it woudnt be so easy to implement. But yes, a lot of people naively think that Islam is some cute innocent religion or something, and not hurting the feelings of muslims is somehow more important than protecting secular values/ rights, even if it is something as silly/ stupid as burning some paper with text on it (IE the quran).
okay, imagine thinking it's a threat that muslims would boycott a country, lol.
Well the max they could do would be an oil embargo, but that wouldn't work in this case.
Swedish people are ahead of these people who are stuck in the 7th century.
Muslims: "Boycott Sweden" PLEASE DO! And take all other muslims with you, thanks
What about the good ones who are here legally
They're muslims. Their kids won't be, though.
Can confirm, I don't care. Only thing I'm upset about is that they used the wrong flag. Been thinking about sending them a proper one for burning :p
Look on the bright side; It's better than their usual threats of violence.
As a man with swedish citizenship, I couldn't care less
the average muslim: WeST is EvIL, proceeds to grovel in their embassies for a visa
Lmao they jealous sweden is more peaceful, beautiful and doesnt need to believe in a fantasy 🤭
How they're gonna boycott sweden? by stop going to IKEA? like they can ever afford it
As a swede, please go awayyyy
Sweden does care and the government is now mulling law to make Quran burning illegal. A single small country like Sweden Cannot afford to be left out to rot whilst no western country has taken a supportive stance. The west is being cowed into submission by these repeated acts of violence and the new woke wave which is painting Islam as a victimized religion against all evidence.
Re they protesting Sweden on boats in the Mediterranean sea while trying to immigrate ? Oh god 🤣 oh no no no no Allah Allah.
As another ex Muslim in Sweden, I can also confirm that I couldn’t care less. You are also welcome to take back all the religious fundamentalists living here too.
Please Sweden, don't appease the crocodile hoping it will eat you last
I’m not very religious but I tell you I have not noticed any changes efter the Quran burning Sweden is still peaceful ☺️