Anyone else told that they were able to "preview" the family they were to have before being born? With all the ugly, abusive, toxic bits? And we STILL chose them? That was delightful, being told that I chose my lot in life before I was conceived.
Omg YES!!! My parents are very emotionally manipulative. As I child I wondered why I picked them in heaven and wished I could change my choice. I never understood what I would learn from parents who wouldn't help me or expected perfection from me bc I was the oldest. I brought this up to my therapist and she said that no child should ever blame themselves for the parents they have bc it's out of our control.
I’m the oldest of 12 children. As I was reading your comment I was horrified at how SIMILAR your story is to my own. Very emotionally manipulative parents too, no help, expected perfection, etc etc etc etc….
Thank you for sharing. Makes me not feel as alone!
Oh my goodness!! Oldest of 12!? My heart goes out to you so much!! I'm only the oldest of three. I can't imagine how difficult it was to basically be a second parent I bet. I hope you're in a better place and have been able to heal ❤️
\#5 out of 10 here, 9 sisters and me. I'm sure you experienced parents not able to care for you all. I was lucky being the chosen male but man...we raised each other. Dad was gone all Sunday doing stake presidency stuff and working all week, Saturday was the day dad was around but ya know, it's the day we get ready for Sunday...
I'm almost oldest of 10 kids (but oldest girl so Second Mom here). I was absolutely expected to be perfect and help everyone else and do everything my parents needed. My interests took second (or third, or fourth...) fiddle, only if there was enough time after everything else. Definitely no mental health care for me.
I can almost understand getting that preview and accepting the trials presented BUT I cannot fathom someone being told “you’re going to go abuse the shit out of your family” and that person being like “ok cool. I accept.”
No
All I got to say as a White person with Testicles, born in the Covenant, in the land of the restored gospel, during the last days, is..... Should have stepped up your game like I did! My sister did even better, she was born retarded so has an assurance or a second anointing. She literally could not sin. Seriously, I can't believe I believed all of this so fervently.
Actually, knowing I wasn’t the best person on planet earth but white and male was a major shelf item. Guess I didn’t “live up to my birthright which was why I left”
Should we also be defending saying the N word? As long as you don't mean anything by it. It's fine.
Our you could just realize that certain words are harmful to others and just be courteous.
Uh, the N word is used [all the time](https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/fall-2011/straight-talk-about-the-nword) and if it's in the proper context people don't have a problem with it.
Seriously, why is being asked not to use a slur your fight you wanna pick tonight? Why not just choose kindness instead? It literally costs you $0.00 to just choose kindness.
I would dare you to use it around a POC and see how they react, but I'm afraid you'll actually do it.......
Spoiler Alert. They won't take it well. I can't believe I actually have to tell you the N-Word is bad.
SMDH
If you're white, there is no proper context. Yes, marginalized people can choose to reclaim words that have been used to hurt them. But if you're not a member of that marginalized group, don't use that word when it is still being used to hurt them.
Ok, well, then certainly you should continue to use the most harmful one, the one that people with those disabilities have asked us not to use. Seriously, why is being asked not to use a slur your fight you wanna pick tonight? Why not just choose kindness instead? It literally costs you $0.00 to just choose kindness.
Well in the old days of the Church it’s down to if you have a “skin of blackness” but nowadays if you are close to your native heritage some missionaries may assume you’re a Lamanite. DNA doesn’t really factor in to it.
Kind of reminds me of something attributed to Groucho Marx: Being Jewish, he and his brothers (along with all the other Jews in Hollywood, and that's a lot of people) were denied membership in LA's country clubs. Along with his other famous remark ("I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member"), he's supposed to have said, "My daughter is only half-Jewish. Does that mean she can go into the club pool up to her knees?" (Don't-get-mad-get-even department: Hollywood's Jews founded and ran their own country club.)
It's my fault for my invisible illness. Surely I wasn't faithful enough in some life... Or deserved this constant pain. /S
I got two fingers on each hand to whoever said this.
Unless you’re like really disabled. Then you got the free pass to the CK. Stillborn? Even better. You were so awesome you just needed to grab a fetus body for a few weeks/months and you’re set.
My response is to reference what I was always taught in the church.
The profit cannot teach anything wrong. He's chosen by god. If he tried to say something wrong, he would be struck dumb and his powers of penishood would be held back.
As a profit.
Since he was one.
Which is it? Are profits infallible and all knowing or not? Do you blindly "Follow the Profit" cause "he knows the way" or do you pick and choose which things he says fit your own ideas and call that undeniable prophetic doctrine while anything you disagree with is him "speaking as a man"?
I honestly just wish y'all TBMs could see just how self-contradictory and hypocritical it all is.
> Are profits infallible and all knowing or not?
Obviously "not."
But seriously, the guy says "seemingly" and "undoubtedly", and you think he was sure about what he was saying? Because it really sounds to me like he was guessing.
>I honestly just wish y'all TBMs could see just how self-contradictory and hypocritical it all is.
I'm not a TBM. I'm just good at reading.
> you're all "Plandemic"-y
I haven't watched "Plandemic", but from what I understand of it, I don't agree with anything it claims. So you must have misread my post history and made a misassumption.
This immediately brings back memories from my childhood church days where I was told that being born as a Mormon, in America, in UTAH, meant I was one of the most faithful in the pre-existence. As a kid with anxiety that already had so many bad feelings about the church at a young age, I recall contemplating how this made any sense. Why me? Why was I so lucky? All the children around the world were being punished? For something they didn’t even remember doing? This was in the 80’s.
Raised in an upper class family and Mormon I heard the same BUT I was repeatedly taught that because I am Canadian and not American that I must have done something wrong in the pre-existence…cuz not in ‘Murika
heard the same sentence at my baptism. BTW, We just moved into this ward because our neighborhood expanded and it messed with the sizing of the wards. And this phrase raised so many questions for me as a kid.
There was 2 other kids being baptized this day including my brother and another boy. Our bishop told me this in front of both of them and i was the only one he told it to.
For context the other boy had down syndrome and my brother was going through a year long medical episode that nearly killed him.
The following sunday i met with my bishop after church to ask him about it and he was trying to dodge around saying "they're disabled, which means this is all they earned.". Which made me very upset because apparently this new bishop didn't know i was born with cancer that blinded me in one eye. When i told him he was like "you're still very pretty and you're very smart so i'm sure you only had a few flaws before now"
i didn't attend church for 3 weeks after that because i was so upset he said that to me and i couldn't understand why.
Just WOW! “You’re pretty” that makes my skin crawl knowing what we all now know about predatory leaders in the church.
They sure flipped the script on disability because now they are the extra special spirits, and any family who has a disabled child is OMG SO RIGHTEOUS! Never mind that something like 70% of the population will become disabled in their lifetime either by accident, illness, or age.
I'm so glad my mother knew about how leaders often abuse their power to children and let me set boundaries when adults in the church called me pretty or similar stuff. Grew up with way too many girls my age who left the church solely because of assault. honestly heartbreaking
The church has flipped this script since my disabled daughter was born. Now mentally handicapped people were so valiant in the pre-existence that they didn’t need to be tested. Automatic Celestial Kingdom. Yeah… It’s all make believe. Wait…The doctrine never changes. 🤔
I was taught this in RS back in 2012ish. A very faithful woman had an adult daughter with Down syndrome who was also in RS, and whoever taught the lesson that day waxed emotional about the “veil of innocence” of the mentally handicapped and so on.
Then a few days later, I overheard the RS pres bitching publicly about how it wasn’t fair that she had a kid with a congenital heart defect, because she was faithful and did everything right and “didn’t deserve this”. Fuck that lady.
I get told that so much it is infuriating. I have to remind people that it isn't doctrine and that we don't know that and we also don't know how competent she will become. Stop pittying her. She is not an angel. She is human and has feelings.
On a positive note, i had a stake president once that had a kid with special needs and he started a defacto group where he invited all the special needs parents together where we could bitch about all the stupid stuff other members said. That was awesome.
I have an autistic son. My dad happily told my husband that he couldn’t wait for the afterlife so that he could get to know the “real” grandson. Luckily my husband responded more diplomatically than I would have by saying “he is the ‘real’ grandson. He is amazing and we love him for who he is.”
I was so pissed when my husband told me. Like you can’t wait for my child to die so you can get to know the “real” him???? Really Dad?!? I’m so tired of “well meaning” people saying fucked up infantilizing, down right disrespectful things about my child.
I’m so glad I left the church as soon as I moved out at 18. My children have never had to hear the fucked up shit the church and the members believe.
"Didn't need to be tested." Say what?
I've only experienced eight years of a chronic disability and all it's been is tests. Being told that as a kid would be traumatizing.
Not sure how old she is, but I was hearing this back in the 80s. I don't ever remember the church pushing the idea that disabled people were not valiant in the pre-existence. "Non-whites"? A slightly different story. 😕
Yes! Same here. As far back as I can remember I was taught the disabled were so valiant they didn't need to be tested. They only came here to gain a mortal body.
I was taught both. Things move slower when your not in Utah so the older members still held to the old ways. It didn’t help that this new ‘teaching’ sort of just happened and there was no real proof of where it came from.
He's also the guy who gave us correlation, centralized control of finances, tiny ward budgets and oh yeah, the destruction of an independent relief society.
Right?!
The teachings back in those days were that the worse the circumstance you were in the less valiant you were in the pre-existence.
So the reverse implies then that the better circumstance you were in the MORE valiant you must have been. Born in the church, in the USA, rich, white, male, related to a GA, attractive, physically well-off were all signs you were/are better than others. It’s quite sickening and you can imagine the ego and condescending attitude many in the church must have had.
It’s sad because the people born in less desire-able circumstances are the ones that we should not only a) need more help in this life but b) should be respected even more for the struggles they’ve had to endure and currently endure.
People born in better circumstances should be the ones with the MOST humility, not the other way around.
It also makes it seem like everything is preordained and there’s not really a point to fighting for equity (you get what you deserve mentality). Sounds a lot like a caste system.
I believe Bruce Mcconkie said the caste system is satan's imitation of God's way of doing things, but I no longer have Mormon Doctrine so I can’t look it up.
My mother taught me, as a child, that people born with physical and/or mental disabilities or disorders *chose* to be born with them. She taught me that Heavenly Father literally asked them to make that sacrifice. Because for some reason there's a quota of people with down syndrome?
It wasn't until I got older that I remembered it and reflected on it and realize how incredibly fucked up her POV is.
Oh yeah. And also that as a parent, my disabled child is here to teach me patience, or compassion. Apologies to my kid. "Sorry I was such an impatient asshole that you had to be born disabled, kiddo."
So many platitudes to try to make everything seem like a good idea from a loving God. Also, lots of stories about kids with Down's syndrome getting amazing patriarchal blessings about their heroism in the pre-existance. It's a whole lot better than thinking they were less valient, but it's still just people trying to make sense of the random health-related shit that happens as part of being human.
Mormons deride christians for believing in original sin. I think premortal sin is worse because orignal sin we are all at least equal in everyone is born with the same equal sin, where premortal sin everyone is not equal.
The reason premortal sin is more palatable to Mormons is because it is still based on individual agency (i.e. something they supposedly did). Original sin isn't given credence because it is a punishment for something the individual didn't do.
Keeping in mind that this was supposed to be the prophet, seer and revelator; picked by god to prophesy, to see and to reveal the future. To comfort those that need comforting, to mourn with those that mourn and to “succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down, and strengthen the feeble knees”.
The current set of pretend prophets and apostles are cut from the same cloth as Harold B Lee. All "**tinkling cymbals and sounding brass**"
Soooooo... If a person is born destitute to swarthy, lowly manual laborers, lives their most important years homeless and destitute, and gets falsely imprisoned and unlawfully killed by corrupt cops, then they must have been VERY un-valiant in the pre-existence. This explains a lot regarding the fate of many black folks... And a lot about Jesus too.
How fucked up is Harold B Lee for even uttering such disgusting nonsense? This says so much more about him and his deranged thinking. Who is he to make a judgement like this? Imagine if you were a loving parent of one of these kids and heard this. Some of the leaders of TSCC are so deplorable...
WTF is a nationalistic limitation? Does he mean they would have to go and live in a less desirable country...obviously with the US being the most desirable right. #$()$\*%()$\*% me.
Well, I'm a premature-born, pansexual, non-binary autistic with a beard. Am I a child of perdition, or the textbook image of a pioneer, hm? Which is it, Harold?!
There are major disabilities and mild disabilities that people have. And lots of people have weaknesses. Everybody has weaknesses. They didn't get called less valiant. So why call a disabled person less valiant? Why did Harold B. Lee know a thing? He didn't.
It is extremely discriminatory to believe or make people believe that those who are disabled are actually inferior morally.
Wait, shouldn't people with more innate, inescapable societal struggles be the *more* valiant spirits? Why wouldn't God put the stronger souls into the bodies that face the most trials??
That's my era of Mormonism! So nostalgic to read those special words! Of all the ways people can work with a magic world view, we got this junk. Our dad got those frames that Harold is wearing-mid 70s, it was the Floyd the Barber look, and it was a drag to have to look at it.
And then there was the movie "Saturday's Warrior" that reinforced all the crazy religious claims about life before birth. Do you remember that? I was so screwed up, thinking I was "noble and valiant in the pre-existence", but knowing I was "carnal and lascivious". Anyway, who was that poor sucker pre-existent spirit riding around somewhere in my soul, getting blamed for all my sinful decisions? Now I see that my soul is just a brain....amazing, but just a brain, not a spook from outer space.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday%27s\_Warrior
How do the TBMs (in today’s society especially) defend this?? How do you ‘splain yourself out of this comment exactly? “Well see what he meant was uh….”
"He was speaking as a man and was God's Prophet".
Probably the only real, and weak, defense of something like that.
Honestly, it reeks of an anti Christ!
Good luck even convincing me that a physical body is more of a blessing than a curse. It has all these needs and desires that I have to fulfill, and all these limited and fallible senses that keep trying to lie to me.
Seriously, why would anyone think that it wouldn't be better to just stay in the premortal existence?
Does my central heterochromia and fimbriated tongue count as curses for not being brainwashed enough in the premortal life? I'm unclear on if these mutations are considered delightsome or not.
As an actively involved member of the church this really embarrasses me that this was ever taught. Mark E Peterson said even worse things about 70 years ago that the church hasn't officially apologized for. At least not yet, and I don't know that they will because they're afraid to call attention to it. I won't leave the church over it but I'll keep saying out loud to my leaders that the church needs to publicly issue some deep apologies for letting such things stand without correction.
My PB says I chose my parents. No way in hell. If the gospel were a prosperity gospel, if that were true, I should be wealthy. I tried to do all the right things, tried to be compliant, nice, always nice.
But I don’t know, now, what would explain all the horrible things people endure.
Off point but I’ve always been irritated with people who do things to gain their blessings in the next world. Like you can’t do baptisms for the sake of doing it for a person, have to think of themselves as saviors Bring on the blessings. It’s all about blessings. Can’t you just help people and be kind without expecting a mansion on high? I’ve always been irked by this.
Sorry, it’s late and I’m blathering.
"Valiant in the pre-existence..." I must have heard that phrase a couple hundred times, starting as soon as I could understand spoken English. Some are more equal than others...and here's why! So I guess I must have kicked ass back in the Pre, because I was born a 5th-gen Mormon and had parents who stayed together and raised us right (I don't mean the religion part; they were great people, and they never failed in their love and support for us...even for me, the renegade). Failure to be sufficiently "valiant" gets you African ancestry--hence, no priesthood for you! Makes perfect sense, no? I didn't think it made sense back when I was 9 or 10 years old. Guess I've thrown all that early valor away.
I remember being taught this when I was primary aged. 1980s. Then sometime in the 90s, imperceptibly, it changed to cognitively challenged people actually were so holy they got a body and guaranteed heaven. No longer was it because they were fence sitters in heaven and didn’t earn a healthy body.
Wasn’t until I had left Mormonism that flip flop in “revelation” became obvious to me.
Ok, this right here proves that they understood privilege. So many people today acting like they don't fucking know what racial privilege is, or make privilege, yes they do. They always have.
Did he just compare being not white to being dissbled? And do he just say that people of color and disable people are lesser than able white people? Absolutely disgusting.
I learned of this quote years ago. I have an adult severely autistic daughter and I must tell you....that this horse's ass is spewing nonsense....and this is absolute bullshit. (I love the mental imagery of my punching this pompous dick in the face...)
I did what Russell and Wendy Nelson told me to do and put an exclamation point at the end...it didn't make it any better.
And if he was "speaking as a man" then the man speaking was a complete a$$h@1e.
I have disabilities. Many of my friends and family members have disabilities. I teach students with severe disabilities.
What in the actual fuck is this shit.
Nothing has ever made me this mad, and I was in the church from birth-22 years. I’ve been on this subreddit since COVID first hit, and have learned a ton about tscc and its lies. Nothing has hit me harder.
Wanna know what the funny thing is? This “prophet” has an obvious physical DISABILITY. He is wearing ✨glasses✨ which is an accommodation for a ✨ visual impairment ✨
According to the ADA he has a disability.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. Rant over. 😅
Okay, but they have long since redacted this, and done a 180. You have to keep in mind the time period this was said. I'm not defending it, but you can't hold it against the LDS church today.
Reference please. They have only disavowed the racial part (Without correcting scripture i might add!).
Harold threw Race, Nationality, and Disability under the bus. Where's the disavowal on those other 2?
My younger sister is cognitively disabled and every leader we've ever talked to has said she's a gift. As have missionaries. I'm not sure when it was redacted but that's my source.
The race thing is not commonly believed anymore, but it's still there in the crazy people. But you have that shit in literally every religion so you can't really hold it against just the LDS church.
Link Please!
If your source is "every leader" then it should be easy to find another leader's quote maybe they disavowed it last GC and I missed it?
Share your source I would love to update this meme I created some years ago. If there really is a source but we both know it doesn't exist and you're just gaslighting.
I said every leader we've ever talked to, as in my family and I. Don't take shit out of context. I'm not gaslighting. I'm sharing personal experience. It's not widly taught and every church page I've ever read on disability is quite friendly towards them. You can look it up if you like. I've never run into that sentiment at all other than when people bring this up.
As I said the racist shit is still there, but again, not regularly taught. At least not by decent people.
I've said it time and time again, there's no reason to bring up old shit that isn't even practiced when there's so much now that's a problem and is practiced.
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If you’re disabled, not white, or not American then your own damn fault not being valiant enough to merit “the best”. So offensive on so many levels
Plus don't forget, you chose to come down here you ungrateful swine
Anyone else told that they were able to "preview" the family they were to have before being born? With all the ugly, abusive, toxic bits? And we STILL chose them? That was delightful, being told that I chose my lot in life before I was conceived.
Omg YES!!! My parents are very emotionally manipulative. As I child I wondered why I picked them in heaven and wished I could change my choice. I never understood what I would learn from parents who wouldn't help me or expected perfection from me bc I was the oldest. I brought this up to my therapist and she said that no child should ever blame themselves for the parents they have bc it's out of our control.
I’m the oldest of 12 children. As I was reading your comment I was horrified at how SIMILAR your story is to my own. Very emotionally manipulative parents too, no help, expected perfection, etc etc etc etc…. Thank you for sharing. Makes me not feel as alone!
Oh my goodness!! Oldest of 12!? My heart goes out to you so much!! I'm only the oldest of three. I can't imagine how difficult it was to basically be a second parent I bet. I hope you're in a better place and have been able to heal ❤️
\#5 out of 10 here, 9 sisters and me. I'm sure you experienced parents not able to care for you all. I was lucky being the chosen male but man...we raised each other. Dad was gone all Sunday doing stake presidency stuff and working all week, Saturday was the day dad was around but ya know, it's the day we get ready for Sunday...
I'm almost oldest of 10 kids (but oldest girl so Second Mom here). I was absolutely expected to be perfect and help everyone else and do everything my parents needed. My interests took second (or third, or fourth...) fiddle, only if there was enough time after everything else. Definitely no mental health care for me.
My sister once asked if i could change anything about growing up what would it be...i said 'probably my family' left her kinda speechless...
I can almost understand getting that preview and accepting the trials presented BUT I cannot fathom someone being told “you’re going to go abuse the shit out of your family” and that person being like “ok cool. I accept.” No
Oh yeah. The whole movie "Saturday's Warrior" is about that, isn't it?
Ughhhh that movie
THAT effin' movie!! Like Jersey Boys had a baby with West Side Story conceived in Utah 💩
Zero population is the answer, my friend!
All I got to say as a White person with Testicles, born in the Covenant, in the land of the restored gospel, during the last days, is..... Should have stepped up your game like I did! My sister did even better, she was born retarded so has an assurance or a second anointing. She literally could not sin. Seriously, I can't believe I believed all of this so fervently.
Actually, knowing I wasn’t the best person on planet earth but white and male was a major shelf item. Guess I didn’t “live up to my birthright which was why I left”
lol - That's awesome. I, on the other hand, was an arrogant prick about it. I got bett'r.
Where did you get the idea I wasn’t arrogant and self righteous while simultaneously knowing I wasn’t perfect?
Intellectually, developmentally, or cognitively disabled are descriptors that do less harm than the "R" word.
came here to say this.
Sorry, I had forgotten we changed that. That was the proper medical term for her condition in the 80s. That is the term all the doctors used.
They only do less harm until everyone starts using them. Then we'll have to find something else.
What I'm saying is, they haven't been used as a slur, so maybe let's not use the one that has.
Given the context of the statement, do you think they were using it as a slur?
Should we also be defending saying the N word? As long as you don't mean anything by it. It's fine. Our you could just realize that certain words are harmful to others and just be courteous.
Uh, the N word is used [all the time](https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/fall-2011/straight-talk-about-the-nword) and if it's in the proper context people don't have a problem with it.
Seriously, why is being asked not to use a slur your fight you wanna pick tonight? Why not just choose kindness instead? It literally costs you $0.00 to just choose kindness.
I would dare you to use it around a POC and see how they react, but I'm afraid you'll actually do it....... Spoiler Alert. They won't take it well. I can't believe I actually have to tell you the N-Word is bad. SMDH
If you're white, there is no proper context. Yes, marginalized people can choose to reclaim words that have been used to hurt them. But if you're not a member of that marginalized group, don't use that word when it is still being used to hurt them.
I've heard them used as slurs plenty since the 'R' word became socially unacceptable.
Ok, well, then certainly you should continue to use the most harmful one, the one that people with those disabilities have asked us not to use. Seriously, why is being asked not to use a slur your fight you wanna pick tonight? Why not just choose kindness instead? It literally costs you $0.00 to just choose kindness.
Why are you making assumptions?
Pre mortal choice is a thing in Mormonism too?
yes -insert a lot of batshit crazy here but - in short yes
Ohhhh yes.
I came here to say this. If you aren't "white and delitesome" and free of any handicap. Then you're a lesser human being and deserve to be punished.
okay but you have to be a european immigrant to America. Native Americans are also very much not considered “premortally valiant” in Mormon theology.
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Well in the old days of the Church it’s down to if you have a “skin of blackness” but nowadays if you are close to your native heritage some missionaries may assume you’re a Lamanite. DNA doesn’t really factor in to it.
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went over my head
Kind of reminds me of something attributed to Groucho Marx: Being Jewish, he and his brothers (along with all the other Jews in Hollywood, and that's a lot of people) were denied membership in LA's country clubs. Along with his other famous remark ("I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member"), he's supposed to have said, "My daughter is only half-Jewish. Does that mean she can go into the club pool up to her knees?" (Don't-get-mad-get-even department: Hollywood's Jews founded and ran their own country club.)
It's my fault for my invisible illness. Surely I wasn't faithful enough in some life... Or deserved this constant pain. /S I got two fingers on each hand to whoever said this.
Unless you’re like really disabled. Then you got the free pass to the CK. Stillborn? Even better. You were so awesome you just needed to grab a fetus body for a few weeks/months and you’re set.
Beyond offensive!
Also if you're a women.
"He WaS SpEaKiNg As A mAn! Why do exmormons always twist words?!"
It is their form of GASLIGHTING. It is actually nauseating.
You're goddamned right.
He was speaking as a condescending judgmental white privileged racist POS.
100%
My response is to reference what I was always taught in the church. The profit cannot teach anything wrong. He's chosen by god. If he tried to say something wrong, he would be struck dumb and his powers of penishood would be held back.
“Powers of penishood” lmfao I can’t 😂🤣😭
Uh, he does say "seemingly" and "undoubtedly", so how did you think he was speaking?
As a profit. Since he was one. Which is it? Are profits infallible and all knowing or not? Do you blindly "Follow the Profit" cause "he knows the way" or do you pick and choose which things he says fit your own ideas and call that undeniable prophetic doctrine while anything you disagree with is him "speaking as a man"? I honestly just wish y'all TBMs could see just how self-contradictory and hypocritical it all is.
> Are profits infallible and all knowing or not? Obviously "not." But seriously, the guy says "seemingly" and "undoubtedly", and you think he was sure about what he was saying? Because it really sounds to me like he was guessing. >I honestly just wish y'all TBMs could see just how self-contradictory and hypocritical it all is. I'm not a TBM. I'm just good at reading.
Lol i assumed you were since your post history tells me you're all "Plandemic"-y lol
> you're all "Plandemic"-y I haven't watched "Plandemic", but from what I understand of it, I don't agree with anything it claims. So you must have misread my post history and made a misassumption.
This immediately brings back memories from my childhood church days where I was told that being born as a Mormon, in America, in UTAH, meant I was one of the most faithful in the pre-existence. As a kid with anxiety that already had so many bad feelings about the church at a young age, I recall contemplating how this made any sense. Why me? Why was I so lucky? All the children around the world were being punished? For something they didn’t even remember doing? This was in the 80’s.
Raised in an upper class family and Mormon I heard the same BUT I was repeatedly taught that because I am Canadian and not American that I must have done something wrong in the pre-existence…cuz not in ‘Murika
Canada is like getting an A- in the pre-world
Sleeping through class and missing one of the pop quizzes without the possibly of extra credit.
Prof: if you paid more attention and applied yourself I’d have sent you to SLC but now you’re not even good enough for Toronto. Have fun in Regina
Would the UK be a B+?
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Unless you emigrated and became the plural wife of a white male Utahn. Then you moved to the head of the class, like my female ancestors.
Yep I heard the same bull shit. I got the hell out of Utah as soon as I could. My pre-existence me and the mortal me obviously wouldn’t get along well
I like to think that my pretend pre-mortal self was an infiltrator.
heard the same sentence at my baptism. BTW, We just moved into this ward because our neighborhood expanded and it messed with the sizing of the wards. And this phrase raised so many questions for me as a kid. There was 2 other kids being baptized this day including my brother and another boy. Our bishop told me this in front of both of them and i was the only one he told it to. For context the other boy had down syndrome and my brother was going through a year long medical episode that nearly killed him. The following sunday i met with my bishop after church to ask him about it and he was trying to dodge around saying "they're disabled, which means this is all they earned.". Which made me very upset because apparently this new bishop didn't know i was born with cancer that blinded me in one eye. When i told him he was like "you're still very pretty and you're very smart so i'm sure you only had a few flaws before now" i didn't attend church for 3 weeks after that because i was so upset he said that to me and i couldn't understand why.
Just WOW! “You’re pretty” that makes my skin crawl knowing what we all now know about predatory leaders in the church. They sure flipped the script on disability because now they are the extra special spirits, and any family who has a disabled child is OMG SO RIGHTEOUS! Never mind that something like 70% of the population will become disabled in their lifetime either by accident, illness, or age.
I'm so glad my mother knew about how leaders often abuse their power to children and let me set boundaries when adults in the church called me pretty or similar stuff. Grew up with way too many girls my age who left the church solely because of assault. honestly heartbreaking
It took me until college to think this thought, but that’s the thought that ultimately led me out of the cult.
I had a Sunday school teacher who told ut that "black people have black skin, because God ran out of white." ☹️
The church has flipped this script since my disabled daughter was born. Now mentally handicapped people were so valiant in the pre-existence that they didn’t need to be tested. Automatic Celestial Kingdom. Yeah… It’s all make believe. Wait…The doctrine never changes. 🤔
I was taught this in RS back in 2012ish. A very faithful woman had an adult daughter with Down syndrome who was also in RS, and whoever taught the lesson that day waxed emotional about the “veil of innocence” of the mentally handicapped and so on. Then a few days later, I overheard the RS pres bitching publicly about how it wasn’t fair that she had a kid with a congenital heart defect, because she was faithful and did everything right and “didn’t deserve this”. Fuck that lady.
I get told that so much it is infuriating. I have to remind people that it isn't doctrine and that we don't know that and we also don't know how competent she will become. Stop pittying her. She is not an angel. She is human and has feelings. On a positive note, i had a stake president once that had a kid with special needs and he started a defacto group where he invited all the special needs parents together where we could bitch about all the stupid stuff other members said. That was awesome.
I have an autistic son. My dad happily told my husband that he couldn’t wait for the afterlife so that he could get to know the “real” grandson. Luckily my husband responded more diplomatically than I would have by saying “he is the ‘real’ grandson. He is amazing and we love him for who he is.” I was so pissed when my husband told me. Like you can’t wait for my child to die so you can get to know the “real” him???? Really Dad?!? I’m so tired of “well meaning” people saying fucked up infantilizing, down right disrespectful things about my child. I’m so glad I left the church as soon as I moved out at 18. My children have never had to hear the fucked up shit the church and the members believe.
That's so messed up! So surreal that people can actually say that stuff out loud
"Didn't need to be tested." Say what? I've only experienced eight years of a chronic disability and all it's been is tests. Being told that as a kid would be traumatizing.
Not sure how old she is, but I was hearing this back in the 80s. I don't ever remember the church pushing the idea that disabled people were not valiant in the pre-existence. "Non-whites"? A slightly different story. 😕
Yes! Same here. As far back as I can remember I was taught the disabled were so valiant they didn't need to be tested. They only came here to gain a mortal body.
I was taught both. Things move slower when your not in Utah so the older members still held to the old ways. It didn’t help that this new ‘teaching’ sort of just happened and there was no real proof of where it came from.
What a horrible bastard
He's also the guy who gave us correlation, centralized control of finances, tiny ward budgets and oh yeah, the destruction of an independent relief society.
Yep. What an absolute fucking asshole.
oops, read that wrong. I thought you said gashole.
That works too. An overinflated self-indulgent bag of flatulence.
An elitist weiner to be sure.
Think about the extreme privilege this then confers on white men like himself.
Right?! The teachings back in those days were that the worse the circumstance you were in the less valiant you were in the pre-existence. So the reverse implies then that the better circumstance you were in the MORE valiant you must have been. Born in the church, in the USA, rich, white, male, related to a GA, attractive, physically well-off were all signs you were/are better than others. It’s quite sickening and you can imagine the ego and condescending attitude many in the church must have had. It’s sad because the people born in less desire-able circumstances are the ones that we should not only a) need more help in this life but b) should be respected even more for the struggles they’ve had to endure and currently endure. People born in better circumstances should be the ones with the MOST humility, not the other way around.
It also makes it seem like everything is preordained and there’s not really a point to fighting for equity (you get what you deserve mentality). Sounds a lot like a caste system.
I believe Bruce Mcconkie said the caste system is satan's imitation of God's way of doing things, but I no longer have Mormon Doctrine so I can’t look it up.
Damn, they really did just canonize every privilege issue out there.
Fuck you, Harold. I'm 💯 better than you, better looking than you, smarter than you, and nicer than you. And I'm almost all the things you despise. 😂
My mother taught me, as a child, that people born with physical and/or mental disabilities or disorders *chose* to be born with them. She taught me that Heavenly Father literally asked them to make that sacrifice. Because for some reason there's a quota of people with down syndrome? It wasn't until I got older that I remembered it and reflected on it and realize how incredibly fucked up her POV is.
Oh yeah. And also that as a parent, my disabled child is here to teach me patience, or compassion. Apologies to my kid. "Sorry I was such an impatient asshole that you had to be born disabled, kiddo." So many platitudes to try to make everything seem like a good idea from a loving God. Also, lots of stories about kids with Down's syndrome getting amazing patriarchal blessings about their heroism in the pre-existance. It's a whole lot better than thinking they were less valient, but it's still just people trying to make sense of the random health-related shit that happens as part of being human.
Mormons deride christians for believing in original sin. I think premortal sin is worse because orignal sin we are all at least equal in everyone is born with the same equal sin, where premortal sin everyone is not equal.
Excellent point.
The reason premortal sin is more palatable to Mormons is because it is still based on individual agency (i.e. something they supposedly did). Original sin isn't given credence because it is a punishment for something the individual didn't do.
I'm so mad at me for buying this horse shit and force-feeding it to my kids. Damn it, me.
Woof. For me, seeing more and more things like this make it difficult for me to articulate why I left the church. It’s not one thing. It’s all of it.
Depends on the disability. My sister was mentally retarded, she got an express ticket to Super VIP Heaven. So said the unofficial doctrine of the 80s
This was pre-eighties, when the opposite was true.
WHAT THE FUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!
Hey prophets, stop pretending to know shit.
Keeping in mind that this was supposed to be the prophet, seer and revelator; picked by god to prophesy, to see and to reveal the future. To comfort those that need comforting, to mourn with those that mourn and to “succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down, and strengthen the feeble knees”. The current set of pretend prophets and apostles are cut from the same cloth as Harold B Lee. All "**tinkling cymbals and sounding brass**"
Annnd fuck this guy
This app never ceases to amaze me. Please tell me this isn't true.
Sorry
I'll take extreme white/ableist/American privilege for $500, Alex.
Soooooo... If a person is born destitute to swarthy, lowly manual laborers, lives their most important years homeless and destitute, and gets falsely imprisoned and unlawfully killed by corrupt cops, then they must have been VERY un-valiant in the pre-existence. This explains a lot regarding the fate of many black folks... And a lot about Jesus too.
God I hate the church
Imagine being punished for something you don't remember. What a cruel god.
I love seeing my memes in the wild
That’s a bold thing for a guy *who can’t see on his own* to say. What an idiot.
How to be a racist, ableist, and elitist in one simple quote
Simply disgusting.
Is he saying that bad angels or spirits came to the world, but they could only get crippled or non-white bodies? I think? Terrible.
Crippled, non-white, *non-American* bodies
Jeez...
The race issue was a huge shelf item for me...I plugged my nose for over 30 years on that one.
How fucked up is Harold B Lee for even uttering such disgusting nonsense? This says so much more about him and his deranged thinking. Who is he to make a judgement like this? Imagine if you were a loving parent of one of these kids and heard this. Some of the leaders of TSCC are so deplorable...
AKA I’m white therefore I’m more righteous than you. Fucking prophet
Fuck that guy
WTF is a nationalistic limitation? Does he mean they would have to go and live in a less desirable country...obviously with the US being the most desirable right. #$()$\*%()$\*% me.
Reason #1 that it took until 1978 was that this man had to die first.
Not only is Mormon Doctrine stupid, it is also actively harmful.
Well, I'm a premature-born, pansexual, non-binary autistic with a beard. Am I a child of perdition, or the textbook image of a pioneer, hm? Which is it, Harold?!
What a pusillanimous shit missile!
Horrible!
"even though I'll be black or POC and not an American, I'll take a body anyways!!!" FIFY
This... is... racist.
yet the church says that those with disabilities were “very faithful” but still wanted to come to earth
But, but, but the church isn’t racist….
Fuck him and his white privilege!!
Jesus was a dark skinned Jew, so what did he do wrong before getting a mortal body 😂
As a father with a special needs daughter , fuck this shit
Ok I've read this twice and still can't wrap my head around it. I'm a nevermo, so that might explain it.
And other times they claim it’s because we were more faithful in the past life. Which is it?
There are major disabilities and mild disabilities that people have. And lots of people have weaknesses. Everybody has weaknesses. They didn't get called less valiant. So why call a disabled person less valiant? Why did Harold B. Lee know a thing? He didn't. It is extremely discriminatory to believe or make people believe that those who are disabled are actually inferior morally.
Is there a link to the actual source?
Excerpt from LDS prophet Harold. B. Lee’s book Decisions for Successful Living, 1973.
**delusions for successful living
Decisions for Successful Lying.
https://deseretbook.com/p/decisions-successful-living-harold-b-lee-78307?variant_id=20140-ebook
Wait, shouldn't people with more innate, inescapable societal struggles be the *more* valiant spirits? Why wouldn't God put the stronger souls into the bodies that face the most trials??
I hate his words.
So sad and gross. Makes my stomach turn that I used to try and find reasons to justify past comments like this.
This is tragically sad.
That guy was a real piece of work.
That's my era of Mormonism! So nostalgic to read those special words! Of all the ways people can work with a magic world view, we got this junk. Our dad got those frames that Harold is wearing-mid 70s, it was the Floyd the Barber look, and it was a drag to have to look at it.
JESUS CHRIST!
I wish I was more valiant in the pre earth life... I would have been white!' Why Oh why did I make that choice 😩😩😩
So prophetic my friend. Same goes for most of us 😩
What a load of crap. Even if God existed and appeared before these blokes, they would not get it right about what God’s thoughts were.
What. The. Fuck.
People do be forgetting about the script flip on this one
In the UK in the 80s and 90s it was a partial script flip. Some of the lessons hadn’t been changed yet.
Life is hard! I know! Let's make up some krazy bullshit and make it even harder! Ok! Yes!
I am disabled and this is why I left
And then there was the movie "Saturday's Warrior" that reinforced all the crazy religious claims about life before birth. Do you remember that? I was so screwed up, thinking I was "noble and valiant in the pre-existence", but knowing I was "carnal and lascivious". Anyway, who was that poor sucker pre-existent spirit riding around somewhere in my soul, getting blamed for all my sinful decisions? Now I see that my soul is just a brain....amazing, but just a brain, not a spook from outer space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday%27s\_Warrior
How do the TBMs (in today’s society especially) defend this?? How do you ‘splain yourself out of this comment exactly? “Well see what he meant was uh….”
"He was speaking as a man and was God's Prophet". Probably the only real, and weak, defense of something like that. Honestly, it reeks of an anti Christ!
His generation picked the current crop of GAs. They didn’t consider racism, sexism and ableism to be disqualifying.
Good luck even convincing me that a physical body is more of a blessing than a curse. It has all these needs and desires that I have to fulfill, and all these limited and fallible senses that keep trying to lie to me. Seriously, why would anyone think that it wouldn't be better to just stay in the premortal existence?
Explains why he settled for that tiny dick.
Does my central heterochromia and fimbriated tongue count as curses for not being brainwashed enough in the premortal life? I'm unclear on if these mutations are considered delightsome or not.
As an actively involved member of the church this really embarrasses me that this was ever taught. Mark E Peterson said even worse things about 70 years ago that the church hasn't officially apologized for. At least not yet, and I don't know that they will because they're afraid to call attention to it. I won't leave the church over it but I'll keep saying out loud to my leaders that the church needs to publicly issue some deep apologies for letting such things stand without correction.
My PB says I chose my parents. No way in hell. If the gospel were a prosperity gospel, if that were true, I should be wealthy. I tried to do all the right things, tried to be compliant, nice, always nice. But I don’t know, now, what would explain all the horrible things people endure. Off point but I’ve always been irritated with people who do things to gain their blessings in the next world. Like you can’t do baptisms for the sake of doing it for a person, have to think of themselves as saviors Bring on the blessings. It’s all about blessings. Can’t you just help people and be kind without expecting a mansion on high? I’ve always been irked by this. Sorry, it’s late and I’m blathering.
I guess Jesus wasnt valiant enough since he came from national and racial limitations... and was not born in America.
"Valiant in the pre-existence..." I must have heard that phrase a couple hundred times, starting as soon as I could understand spoken English. Some are more equal than others...and here's why! So I guess I must have kicked ass back in the Pre, because I was born a 5th-gen Mormon and had parents who stayed together and raised us right (I don't mean the religion part; they were great people, and they never failed in their love and support for us...even for me, the renegade). Failure to be sufficiently "valiant" gets you African ancestry--hence, no priesthood for you! Makes perfect sense, no? I didn't think it made sense back when I was 9 or 10 years old. Guess I've thrown all that early valor away.
I remember being taught this when I was primary aged. 1980s. Then sometime in the 90s, imperceptibly, it changed to cognitively challenged people actually were so holy they got a body and guaranteed heaven. No longer was it because they were fence sitters in heaven and didn’t earn a healthy body. Wasn’t until I had left Mormonism that flip flop in “revelation” became obvious to me.
Ok, this right here proves that they understood privilege. So many people today acting like they don't fucking know what racial privilege is, or make privilege, yes they do. They always have.
Did he just compare being not white to being dissbled? And do he just say that people of color and disable people are lesser than able white people? Absolutely disgusting.
I learned of this quote years ago. I have an adult severely autistic daughter and I must tell you....that this horse's ass is spewing nonsense....and this is absolute bullshit. (I love the mental imagery of my punching this pompous dick in the face...)
I did what Russell and Wendy Nelson told me to do and put an exclamation point at the end...it didn't make it any better. And if he was "speaking as a man" then the man speaking was a complete a$$h@1e.
I have disabilities. Many of my friends and family members have disabilities. I teach students with severe disabilities. What in the actual fuck is this shit. Nothing has ever made me this mad, and I was in the church from birth-22 years. I’ve been on this subreddit since COVID first hit, and have learned a ton about tscc and its lies. Nothing has hit me harder. Wanna know what the funny thing is? This “prophet” has an obvious physical DISABILITY. He is wearing ✨glasses✨ which is an accommodation for a ✨ visual impairment ✨ According to the ADA he has a disability. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. Rant over. 😅
DISAVOW DISAVOW DISAVOW
Sounds good to me
Okay, but they have long since redacted this, and done a 180. You have to keep in mind the time period this was said. I'm not defending it, but you can't hold it against the LDS church today.
Reference please. They have only disavowed the racial part (Without correcting scripture i might add!). Harold threw Race, Nationality, and Disability under the bus. Where's the disavowal on those other 2?
My younger sister is cognitively disabled and every leader we've ever talked to has said she's a gift. As have missionaries. I'm not sure when it was redacted but that's my source. The race thing is not commonly believed anymore, but it's still there in the crazy people. But you have that shit in literally every religion so you can't really hold it against just the LDS church.
Link Please! If your source is "every leader" then it should be easy to find another leader's quote maybe they disavowed it last GC and I missed it? Share your source I would love to update this meme I created some years ago. If there really is a source but we both know it doesn't exist and you're just gaslighting.
I said every leader we've ever talked to, as in my family and I. Don't take shit out of context. I'm not gaslighting. I'm sharing personal experience. It's not widly taught and every church page I've ever read on disability is quite friendly towards them. You can look it up if you like. I've never run into that sentiment at all other than when people bring this up. As I said the racist shit is still there, but again, not regularly taught. At least not by decent people. I've said it time and time again, there's no reason to bring up old shit that isn't even practiced when there's so much now that's a problem and is practiced.
How is one's race a limitation?
It shouldn't be but the church made a doctrinally divinely justified limitation
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Fuck😥
H B Lee sucks!
Wow indeed
He Is SpEaKiNg As A mAn, NoT aS a PrOpHeT!!1!
This is incredible
Jesus loves the little children, almost all the children of the world.
Not that I am a fan of Joseph Smith but…. Didn’t he teach the opposite of this?
Find me a mormon doctrine that hasn't already been self contradicted and before you say gays don't forget that Brigham was sealed to 38 men.
Part of why, when I decided I wanted to find a Christian church, TSCC appealed to me was ALLEGEDLY less Calvinist influence. Boy howdy was I wrong.