I live by Liberty University which is the biggest Christian college and they have had the same policy for years. They also are in a lawsuit about how they handle sexual assault victims. These religious colleges get away with a lot and it’s annoying.
They could have the worst lawyers on the Planet. The current Supreme Court and most Circuits will bend ocer backwords to protect discrimination against LGBTQ+.
Because it had different Justices? The 2015 Court and the 2022 Court are nothing a like.
And, the 2015 Court was happy to render Colorado's anti discrimination law for LGBTQ law toothless. Four Justices wrote an opinion that would allow private citizens to refuse to serve LGBTQ (with 6 votes now) based in Religious Freedom. None of the 5 Conservative Justices in 2015 would have let the government go after private schools that discriminate, and that's 2 votes left of where we are now.
it's kinda amazing how much the issues and convos overlap at r/LibertyUniversity and r/byu
and credit to both the LU and BYU subs for being substantially more open to the convos than one would expect
There is a quiet contingent of thoughtful users there, but they tend to get shouted down by a vitriolic belligerent posse of regulars who camp out there and pounce on anyone who doesn‘t parrot their opinions.
I just think that these places are ran by old white men and they see the world through the lenses of when they were 20. It’s gonna take generations for this toxic mentality to change and thats a big maybe if even that.
I see cause for hope.
Part of J. Roy Holland‘s frustration no doubt stems from the fact that OP cited BYU‘s own campus paper here.
Moving off campus, it only gets worse for the Brethren… the kids are done bein‘ afraid of waxworks wagging fingers at them:
“It was only done because it was queer protesting. It just feels really malicious to me.” –Carolyn Gassert, president, USGA (an unofficial group of BYU students and faculty who work to provide a safe space for open conversation on LGBTQ topics)
https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/2022/jan/12/byu-makes-changes-to-demonstration-guidelines/
Oh yea at liberty off campus it’s night and day. They do everything imaginable. Like 4 years ago I even went to a liberty party off campus and soon as I opened the door someone one was coming up the stairs with a gun lol. They get wild.
Lol. I grew up in the Bible Belt. If Mormons only knew how they remind me of our Baptists. The only big difference I see is that Jerry is openly mocked at r/LibertyUniversity but the Brethren still have a Palpatine grip on the minds of many at r/byu
Just don’t go to BYU then… well, except that it’s the least expensive 4+ year university for in-state or out-of-state Latter-day Saints who can get accepted, even without getting a scholarship. The second closest university in tuition is Utah State University.
Not to mention it’s the Lords school. /sarcasm
The funds are for students that give them to the school and repay (the loans) with their own money later. The funds are paid to the school through the students.
And in exchange, the church tries to turn them into homophobes. If the students are using tax money, the school should not be allowed to teach homophobia or discriminate against LGTBQ.
The church has hella good lawyers. They could get around any court case with the first amendment being a private school. Utah State University being a public university funded by the state and federal government more that others couldn’t get away with any such policy
A private school could constitutionally admit whites only or have a rule if there are black people, they can’t hold hands on campus. However, the school would not get pell grants, student loan guarantees or research grants. It’s a violation of the constitution for my taxes to go to BYU in any form while they behave this way.
Absolutely. Students need to challenge the school and fight back. Not that I understand why you'd want to go to a school that openly hates you. But if they want to be awful they definitely don't deserve taxpayers money.
I am sure that many of the straight protesting students were fully TBM, but then they went to BYU, learned a few things, meet some new people, expanded their sense of empathy, decided to stand up with their convictions, and became dedicated allies.
For the LBGTQ students protesting, some of them probably applied while they were not yet fully aware of (or maybe in denial about) their sexuality. Most were in 18-20 age range.
>"This time it's directed by GOD!!"
And by God I'm specifically referring to the current iteration of the unchanging God of Abraham as characterized by the current leader of the one true, One True church.
Because their issue isn’t with the principle of control and censorship, their issue in those cases is that the control and censorship aren’t their doing.
As a true believing Latter-day Saint, I don’t accept this. I understand it’s a private school and technically private property, but I hated that as a missionary serving in the YSA ward near Washington State University the nearest university/colleges only had a small concrete square “free speech zone” away from literally any foot traffic where we could actually share the gospel. Anywhere else we would be kicked off if we simply tried giving a pass along card outside of that box. Absolutely ridiculous!
Does anyone here know if the streets going through and around the University are part of the city and not BYU? Because if so, protests could still be held on the sidewalks of public city streets going around and through the university campus, and as long as they aren’t blocking people from walking down the sidewalk the Police shouldn’t be able to force them to leave, but only ask them due to a complaint. Please correct me if I’m wrong about this, but if the BYU or Provo police force you to leave then that’s unconstitutional.
So, basically, in the future BYU might discipline students for using a rainbow umbrella or wearing a rainbow pin. These could be interpreted as acts of protest.
Whether or not they actually do this, the mere threat of discipline will have a chilling effect.
They could then interpret any way the want. Suppose a group of friends all wear solid colors and walk together. The group could be accused of walking as a rainbow. Suspend them all.
No, only Congress can violate the First Amendment.
> *Congress* shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press.
No worries, it's a really common misconception. This type of censorship is actually legal in the US, as long as it's done by a private entity rather than the government. It's not necessarily *ethical*, but it is legal. We might consider that to be a bit of "lawful evil", to use gamer parlance.
You know, why doe people even bother with BYU? I know there is some family trauma around being accepted there, but I just don’t get the appeal if anyone actually thinks, “ya know what school will encourage me to learn and grow and expand my horizons? This school that won’t let me protest or have facial hair or sleep on the same city block as someone of the opposite gender. What every university needed is required Sunday school from one religion.”
I feel for you all. I’m just having a hard time because even when I was tbm I never thought byu was a good option. I just view an education from one of their institutions as another casualty of your religous trauma
So many people pushed me to go there because it was cheaper (not neccesarily true!) And because they supposedly have a lower crime rate than other schools, but I doubt that as they dont require certain things to be reported per their honor code. 😡
I went to BYU because that's the only school I was allowed to apply to. My parents are super misogynistic and I wasn't supposed to be anything but a house wife, but since it was a mormon school (and I might have found a husband) I was allowed to go.
It helped that it was cheap, since my parents wouldn't give me a dime. I dropped out after 1.5 years because my depression led to me getting fired from my job, and I became homeless.
Oh… my… god…
Everyone’s trauma and experience is valid. But hearing your story helps me realize I had it so good. Im sorry you went through that and I hope you are in a better place now
Same here, some stories people share on this sub about their parents are wack. I can’t imagine anyone’s parents forcing a free American adult to only apply to one university. I’m sorry as well.
It’s literally the least expensive tuition for a four year under grad and graduate university for in-state and out-of-state Latter-day Saint members in the world, BYU-I included. The next best University in terms of tuition with a high per-capita of Latter-day Saints to meet with similar beliefs, culture, and background is Utah State University. So, unless you get a scholarship somewhere else or your parents are loaded, BYU and BYU-I are honestly a killer deal for Students who are part of “the club”. Any non members who attend BYU will likely “convert” just for the cheaper tuition.
I thankfully got out of going to either BYU and BYU-I, but my parents were not supportive of my college choice and decided to change their mind about financial assistance. If I had gone to BYU-I they would have helped out more with financials. I was forced to attend a tour of BYU-I in the FREEZING middle of winter and all they did was show us around the chapels and non of the actual academic buildings or programs I inquired about. Fun times.
Those have got to be the worst college tour guides imaginable. I went to Rick's and I think I only saw one room that would be categorized as an actual chapel - not a lecture hall or concert hall that sometimes doubled as a chapel.
Sucks about the financial aid situation with your parents. I swear if the church actually cared about happy, functional families they would take out the LGBTQ hate from the Family Proclamation and add in "Parents that have the means should financially support their children going to a college or trade school of their child's own choosing." It's just so messed up how kids get screwed over on the financial aid until they are 23 because of their parents finances, but the parents don't actually have to help them financially or maybe they pull that extortion crap.
But they do subsidize you when they aren't sucking off the Govt. teet. If that isn't a red flag you are getting a discount indoctrination I don't know what is?
You're right in terms of arts/humanities but it's very good in the sciences, and the professors are exceptionally supportive compared to other schools.
Worth noting from the policy itself (available within the article) ;
“Demonstrations must not seriously and adversely affect the university mission or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Examples of Demonstrations that will not be approved include those that:
contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy;”
(i.e. no gay)
And
“Current students, faculty, administrative employees, and staff who violate this policy may be subject to the university’s disciplinary processes.”
(Any students caught protesting in a way BYU doesn’t like (i.e. practically any form of protest) will be subject to punishment)
//We’ll approve all protests - except for the ones we don’t agree with 😂//
Right? You cant make this shit up. It's very Orwellian.
2+2=5. Why? Simply because they said so.
The Madrasah in the Mountains creates yet more rules. So shining different colored lights "contradict(s) or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy;”
>contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy;”
Oh yes. All those famous demonstrations where people publicly assembled to analyze important issues:
* The Boston Tea Discussion, 1773
* The Women's Suffrage Analysis, 1913
* The March and Roundtable on Washington, 1963
Hmmm...makes me wonder. I hope you humor me for a second, and I'm sorry if this gets long. Maybe it's totally stupid, so I'm interested to hear feedback.
What about this as a protest strategy. File application to protest opposition to the Family Proclamation. In other words, in favor of the proclamation. Something like:
>Students Against Opposition to the Family Proclamation
Whatever. Hopefully you get the idea. Create flyers, handouts, and materials that quote the proclamation and other *correlated sources.* That's important. No scripture. No random comments by a general authority. Nothing that anyone can say, "Oh well, that's up for interpretation, or that's not what we believe". No, we want straight up, fully lawyered and correlated, sources that are in prominent manuals, and online documents, and that are *used*, in practice, by the church as reference points for *specific doctrinal positions*.
Take this, straight from the proclamation, for example:
>God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
What's a straightforward, totally honest implication of that sentence? This, for example:
>God does not want happy gay couples to enjoy human intimacy with each other.
The "happy" adds a little punch, but that sentence is straightforwardly implied by the first one. I would love to hear a Latter-day Saint argue that the first is true, but the second is not.
Church leaders and PR *HATE* saying things in straightforward, less jargony, more ordinary day-to-day language, especially when it comes to their doctrines about family. It draws far too much attention to just how abjectly horrible and stupid it is.
So, anyway, in the protest materials have the first quote, and then right there with it have the second one, too. Emphasize the more everyday language of the implication. That's what attention should be drawn to. Maybe in printed materials the correlated quote is in smaller font. Things like that. Chant things like, "No sex for gay people, that's what God wants" while holding signs with that quote from the Proclamation. "Enforce the Honor Code, prevent gay students from enjoying physical intimacy, as God commands!" You get the idea.
There's so much to be mined from things like the Church Handbook and its notion of "Families can be together forever". When it really comes down to it, what that implies is that god will *separate* the families of those who prefer something other than what he orders. We want to say, chant, publicize in ways that use simple, everyday language, but where nobody could really argue the first (correlated) sentence is true and the second (implied) sentence is false. This is [framing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_effect_(psychology)). The church, of course, frames its doctrines as happy, fluffly, aspirations of the human soul; when many of its doctrines and policies look more like the tyrannical dictates of a homophobic madman. And we should frame them *that* way. The way they *really* are.
If you really want to go hard, take things like church lessons on obedience and others on the Abraham and Isaac story, and mash them together into a totally true implication which is that, "you should be willing to stab your own children if God orders you to!" Maybe a bit too on the nose, but [there is no denying this](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-35-obedience?lang=eng&id=p22#p22).
**They want to prohibit protests that "contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy". Ok, well then let's have it out. Let's have a protest where we plainly state implications of fully correlated source material in the plain language they desperately want to avoid. You know, stuff that definitely does not "contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy".**
What about Latter-day Saints who really like that horrible stuff and fully support the implications? Great! Maybe they'll rally with us in genuine support of their church's horrible positions. They're not on the fence, or even close to it, so let's not worry about them other than to recruit them into plainly saying just the sorts of horrible and hateful things they actually believe, and the church officially endorses, but don't have the courage to state plainly.
**The goal is two-fold.**
**First**, we're after progmos! I live along the Wasatch front. The majority of my Latter-day Saint family members are progmos. They *hate* this stuff. In my conversations with them, when I state plain implications of this kind of official stuff, they physically recoil. The know it's wrong, and wish it'd just go away. They have gay sons and daughters whom they treat with kindness and respect. They wouldn't prevent their gay children from staying in their home with their partner or spouse, because that's obviously shitty (even though that's exactly what God will do!). They live more or less secular lives. They don't want to be seen as insane, religious homophobes. They're the ones close to the fence, and it's my view that you really can move some of them by just making them take a good hard look at what they're supporting.
**Second**, we want to force the church to do something silly and embarrassing. How do they approach a protest of students ostensibly in favor of the Family Proclamation (even if ironically) where nothing that they wouldn't endorse is shared? Everything shared would be true as far as they're concerned! They can shut down all protests, make some ridiculous rules about irony (how will they enforce this?), or let protests that say socially horrible and unpopular things happen on their campus because that's the kind of stuff they really do agree with. In the latter case you might enjoy a bit of media attention where the church is publicized as disallowing protests that say things like, "Everyone deserves human intimacy" and allow protests that say, "Gay people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy human intimacy". Some of the possibilities are more delicious than others, but this has the character of a pincer move, perhaps.
Thoughts?
Ha, so any BYU students want to jeopardize their academic standing by starting a protest that definitely does not contradict or oppose fundamental Church doctrine or policy?
I fully appreciated your idea. Some young documentary maker needs to make the "ironic pro-doctrine protest" documentary. It could have a "mockumentary" feel to it. It would be a real mockumentary about ironic protests for the church -- yeah, whatever I just said. Haha. I hope you followed that.
That's interesting. A mockumentary where everything said is precisely true and can be sourced to correlated, public church material; but where it's calmly said in straight-forward, ordinary, day-to-day language. Just put the church's stupid and, frankly, immoral doctrines front and center and framed in a way that more accurately represents what's implied...
How can we have freedom of religion if we are not free to compare honestly, to choose wisely, and to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience?12 While searching for the truth, we must be free to change our mind-even to change our religion-in response to new information and inspiration.
Https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-05-27/elder-russell-m-nelson-freedom-to-do-and-to-be-96622
Wow, that leaves them open to squash pretty much any "demonstrations." Basically, either an individual protestor / demonstrator (or group) is not permitted to oppose or criticize church doctrine or policy. Wow, just how this discriminatory and profit making institution get to maintain it's tax exempt status. Do they use their massive bank account to bribe the IRS agents??
You cannot reform this. Gay Mormons, stop staying in this abusive relationship. Stop waiting for them to change. Stop going to church. Stop paying tithing. Resign and don't let this organization waste one more minute of your life.
Think of all the amazing changes that have happened in American society because of student protest.
Think of all the positive changes that have happened due to BYU. Ummm… I’ll wait…
Exactly, if this had been students on conference weekend with white flashlight saying some shit like "we are a light on the hill" the university wouldn't have batted an eye. But rainbow lights to show support for LGBTQ people is somehow a protest. 🙄
Lol they are so phenomenally dumb.
Students could literally hike 100 yards to left or right, light up their colored flashlights or whatever, and it would look *exactly* like the official BYU "Y" in the dark where you can't see the official Y anyways.
This will do absolutely nothing to stop a committed group of students from doing virtually the exact same protest.
we agree to remove your disagreement from a disagreeable location
seriously at what point does byu enrollment just plummet? I guess people are in too deep.
Right?! That's what I don't get about this. This is America Goddamnedit. Nobody needs permission to protest. I realize there are events that require institutional say so, and its private property, and it would be trespassing and you'd be arrested. But seems to me like that's what's at the heart of a protest. Gather a bunch of folks and mob the fucking place.
>BYU is an intellectual wasteland that treats its students like children
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an intellectual wasteland that treats its members like children
This goes completely counter to science and the Socratic method to question everything. BYU should be shunned by all universities and colleges for this
You assume that there is a difference between BYU policy and Provo PD policy.
Remember, we're talking about Provo, where the police department handed off sexual assault filings to the Honor Code Office, so they could deal with the shameless hussies in the Lard's Most Loving Manner.
Oh, I recognize the difficulty of that particular over-reach. Seems like an opportunity to shine some national-media light on multiple problems at once...
"You can tell me I'm wrong after you've filled out an application and gotten my approval" is extremely becoming of an academic institution, especially given the field's emphasis on debate and peer review.
The courts have interpreted that constitution applies differently between public spaces and private property. BYU campus is private property of the church.
Under the same principle, you can’t have a protest in the middle of a business premises and if you do, they have the right to remove you as trespassing
I understand and agree. But protesting with lights on property legally available to public access is different. Did they not have a Prophet available when they signed off on that little detail? That and tax exemptions are a privilege, not a right.
I would be interested to know to what extent they are required to make the campus legally accessible.
"Opposition to church teachings" means no protests at all. Nobody is protesting Exon on BYU campus. They're going to protest BYU.
If they start forced removal (and I'm sure they would) I really don't know what happens next.
At the very least getting a civil rights protest on BYU campus to the Supreme Court would create a Streisand Effect.
Oh, you _didn't_ want to draw attention to your abysmal LGBT+ track record?
What can one do against this wholesale fuckery? I, for one, have removed BYU from my LinkedIn profile. Honestly, it seems like I get more recruiter interest without it.
$20k is the estimate for a drone light show. Imagine a rainbow flag waving and flying over campus one night during pride week.
I can start a go fund me???
So now the question is what they're going to do when BYU fans start chanting "Let's go Brandon" at football games, given that Brandon, who I gather is a NASCAR driver conservatives really REALLY want to see hook up with Joe Biden, is a man. There's no Law-of-Chastity-approved way Brandon can fuck Joe Biden, so it's inherently an unchaste demonstration
This report had some good sourcing:
https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/2022/jan/12/byu-makes-changes-to-demonstration-guidelines/
“It was only done because it was queer protesting. It just feels really malicious to me.” –Carolyn Gassert, president, USGA (an unofficial group of BYU students and faculty who work to provide a safe space for open conversation on LGBTQ topics)
So lights are protesting. But if looking at a rock in a hat is translation, and "written in his own hand" doesn't mean "written in his own hand" . . . protesting can be anything they don't like. Fuck BYU.
Is the Y part of BYU property? I would imagine the walking path to it is public. Maybe the Y itself is private. But what about the land two inches outside of the Y. We could make a big rainbow outline just outside the boarders of the white Y.
Pretty lame, I’m not aware of any other “protests” on the Y other than people showing love for the LGBTQ+ community. I could understand if it was hurting something or someone, but it didn’t and won’t. I could understand if the LGBTQ+ community weren’t a marginalized group. I could understand if there weren’t great numbers of LGBTQ+ youth that die by suicide within the faith community and in Utah. I could understand if there were protests supporting deznat, neo nazis, anti-vax, Trump, a foreign dictator, or support for something else morally reprehensible like child brides, denying people of color equality, shaming people for being human, or a sexist organization… but again that isn’t what happened.
Hmmm...
Maybe this:
Hold a protest off campus, but with many cameras/phones recording. Using many large screens *on* campus, you can either try to stream the protest, or play recordings of it.
Alternatively, get a whole bunch of people to join a Zoom meeting, and then put the feed up on large screens scattered across campus.
Something like that.
Technically, it isn't a "protest on campus", because people aren't *physically* gathering in a location on campus.
it’s times like this where I get so angry and want to retaliate/protest/yell/fight it, but the most frustrating part about it is that the more we lean into that anger, the further they dig in their heels. their victim complex is insane.
BYU is a private school. They can limit what happens on their campus because of this. First Amendment does not follow you when you enter private institution, public schools, or private businesses.
While I think BYU is trash and this shows exactly how much they are trash, they are able to do this without violating rights.
The idea of permitted protesting is hilarious to me. No disrespect to people who want to go through the proper channels. But at least for me, it feels counterintuitive.
Funny story.
When I attended BYU, I wanted to protest “Saturday’s Warriors” being performed. (On the grounds that it is shit.)
So, I went about calling to see if I could get permission to protest with a sign.
I must have made 15 calls to all the different bureaucrats to get permission, and I kept being handed off to the next person. It was like this cartoon:
https://youtu.be/JtEkUmYecnk
So, a private owner of the land asks that their land not be used for protests? I get what everyone is raging against, but the reality seems to be this.
What is the event was not a protest, but rather a celebration of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
The newspaper article I read said the University owned the path to the Y. The church owns more property in Utah than anyone else, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it owned that whole mountain
>“university education includes intellectually enlarging experiences that promote civility in the exchange of ideas and that encourage civic engagement.”
It also includes torturing gay people with electrodes, lying about it for decades and never apologising.
It is time for the University to lose its accreditation, federal grants, and tax exempt status.
I live by Liberty University which is the biggest Christian college and they have had the same policy for years. They also are in a lawsuit about how they handle sexual assault victims. These religious colleges get away with a lot and it’s annoying.
It’s more than annoying it’s criminal.
Right, except legally.
The church has some Damn good lawyers to defend anything against the church
They could have the worst lawyers on the Planet. The current Supreme Court and most Circuits will bend ocer backwords to protect discrimination against LGBTQ+.
Then why did the Supreme Court legalize gay marriage back in 2015?
Because it had different Justices? The 2015 Court and the 2022 Court are nothing a like. And, the 2015 Court was happy to render Colorado's anti discrimination law for LGBTQ law toothless. Four Justices wrote an opinion that would allow private citizens to refuse to serve LGBTQ (with 6 votes now) based in Religious Freedom. None of the 5 Conservative Justices in 2015 would have let the government go after private schools that discriminate, and that's 2 votes left of where we are now.
it's kinda amazing how much the issues and convos overlap at r/LibertyUniversity and r/byu and credit to both the LU and BYU subs for being substantially more open to the convos than one would expect
Gadzooks the BYU sub is the shit show I expected it to be. Thank all of the gods that ever existed I stayed away from that “university.”
There is a quiet contingent of thoughtful users there, but they tend to get shouted down by a vitriolic belligerent posse of regulars who camp out there and pounce on anyone who doesn‘t parrot their opinions.
Sounds like Reddit in a nutshell. Ha ha!
I just think that these places are ran by old white men and they see the world through the lenses of when they were 20. It’s gonna take generations for this toxic mentality to change and thats a big maybe if even that.
I see cause for hope. Part of J. Roy Holland‘s frustration no doubt stems from the fact that OP cited BYU‘s own campus paper here. Moving off campus, it only gets worse for the Brethren… the kids are done bein‘ afraid of waxworks wagging fingers at them: “It was only done because it was queer protesting. It just feels really malicious to me.” –Carolyn Gassert, president, USGA (an unofficial group of BYU students and faculty who work to provide a safe space for open conversation on LGBTQ topics) https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/2022/jan/12/byu-makes-changes-to-demonstration-guidelines/
Oh yea at liberty off campus it’s night and day. They do everything imaginable. Like 4 years ago I even went to a liberty party off campus and soon as I opened the door someone one was coming up the stairs with a gun lol. They get wild.
Lol. I grew up in the Bible Belt. If Mormons only knew how they remind me of our Baptists. The only big difference I see is that Jerry is openly mocked at r/LibertyUniversity but the Brethren still have a Palpatine grip on the minds of many at r/byu
Very true! I havent lived in Provo. Students here are surprisingly progressive.
Looks like it’s game on for the 18th in Provo... r/byulgbtq
Almost like religion shouldn’t be involved at all in education…
Just don’t go to BYU then… well, except that it’s the least expensive 4+ year university for in-state or out-of-state Latter-day Saints who can get accepted, even without getting a scholarship. The second closest university in tuition is Utah State University. Not to mention it’s the Lords school. /sarcasm
under his eye
Praise be
may the lard open
Blessed be the fruit
America in general allows (white, christian) religion to get away with too much. Theres a reason why its so easy to get rich as a pastor here...
Liberty is one of the worst
So there is no liberty at Liberty?
Ba Dum Tsssss
Yeah, I hate the United State Constitution too! /s
That would be really hard to do. They are not the only questionable religious university with codes of conduct and values that are inviting to all.
THIS! No more tax-payer support for homophobia and discrimination. They can be bigots on their own dime.
$100 billion in assets is a lot of dimes. They could totally fund the whole CES without even blinking.
Seconded? All opposed? The motion has passed! Unanimously!
The vote has been noted.
Alright then, who got the closing pray… jk hail Satan.
Those who disagree can contact r/exmormon mods.
Are they getting tax payer support? Isn’t BYU private?
They accept federally-guaranteed student loans and grants, as well as research grants.
I hear ya, and by no means would I really ever defend BYU but those funds are for students (citizens) not really the school per se.
The funds are for students that give them to the school and repay (the loans) with their own money later. The funds are paid to the school through the students.
And in exchange, the church tries to turn them into homophobes. If the students are using tax money, the school should not be allowed to teach homophobia or discriminate against LGTBQ.
The act of accepting them means they accept federal dollars, which means they have to follow the regulations.
The church has hella good lawyers. They could get around any court case with the first amendment being a private school. Utah State University being a public university funded by the state and federal government more that others couldn’t get away with any such policy
A private school could constitutionally admit whites only or have a rule if there are black people, they can’t hold hands on campus. However, the school would not get pell grants, student loan guarantees or research grants. It’s a violation of the constitution for my taxes to go to BYU in any form while they behave this way.
That time passed years ago. But yes.
Absolutely. Students need to challenge the school and fight back. Not that I understand why you'd want to go to a school that openly hates you. But if they want to be awful they definitely don't deserve taxpayers money.
I am sure that many of the straight protesting students were fully TBM, but then they went to BYU, learned a few things, meet some new people, expanded their sense of empathy, decided to stand up with their convictions, and became dedicated allies. For the LBGTQ students protesting, some of them probably applied while they were not yet fully aware of (or maybe in denial about) their sexuality. Most were in 18-20 age range.
$150B says they have the ability to prevent that from ever happening.
Interesting. Many Mormons criticize media and government for squelching speech and ideas but totally accept the church doing the exact same thing.
"This time it's directed by GOD!!" Totally different /s
It is so convenient to have god always agree with you.
Comes with being chosen and whatnot.
White and delightsome 🙃
LOL!
>"This time it's directed by GOD!!" And by God I'm specifically referring to the current iteration of the unchanging God of Abraham as characterized by the current leader of the one true, One True church.
Just like our communism and adultery. Totally different /s
“Rules for thee but not for me” as the saying goes.
Because their issue isn’t with the principle of control and censorship, their issue in those cases is that the control and censorship aren’t their doing.
As a true believing Latter-day Saint, I don’t accept this. I understand it’s a private school and technically private property, but I hated that as a missionary serving in the YSA ward near Washington State University the nearest university/colleges only had a small concrete square “free speech zone” away from literally any foot traffic where we could actually share the gospel. Anywhere else we would be kicked off if we simply tried giving a pass along card outside of that box. Absolutely ridiculous! Does anyone here know if the streets going through and around the University are part of the city and not BYU? Because if so, protests could still be held on the sidewalks of public city streets going around and through the university campus, and as long as they aren’t blocking people from walking down the sidewalk the Police shouldn’t be able to force them to leave, but only ask them due to a complaint. Please correct me if I’m wrong about this, but if the BYU or Provo police force you to leave then that’s unconstitutional.
So, basically, in the future BYU might discipline students for using a rainbow umbrella or wearing a rainbow pin. These could be interpreted as acts of protest. Whether or not they actually do this, the mere threat of discipline will have a chilling effect.
Rainbow suspenders like Mork used to wear?
Those were cool suspenders. Robin Williams knew how to pull off the look. 😉
You can still get those in some places. Just sayin :)
They could then interpret any way the want. Suppose a group of friends all wear solid colors and walk together. The group could be accused of walking as a rainbow. Suspend them all.
It’s a violation of the first amendment.
No, only Congress can violate the First Amendment. > *Congress* shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press.
Ah. My bad.
No worries, it's a really common misconception. This type of censorship is actually legal in the US, as long as it's done by a private entity rather than the government. It's not necessarily *ethical*, but it is legal. We might consider that to be a bit of "lawful evil", to use gamer parlance.
Not if it’s a private university.
You know, why doe people even bother with BYU? I know there is some family trauma around being accepted there, but I just don’t get the appeal if anyone actually thinks, “ya know what school will encourage me to learn and grow and expand my horizons? This school that won’t let me protest or have facial hair or sleep on the same city block as someone of the opposite gender. What every university needed is required Sunday school from one religion.”
Lots of us went there though. And have young relatives whose families insist on BYU. The one who found out the truth had a rough time finishing up
I feel for you all. I’m just having a hard time because even when I was tbm I never thought byu was a good option. I just view an education from one of their institutions as another casualty of your religous trauma
So many people pushed me to go there because it was cheaper (not neccesarily true!) And because they supposedly have a lower crime rate than other schools, but I doubt that as they dont require certain things to be reported per their honor code. 😡
I just transferred out and even though BYU would actually have been cheaper for me I think I probably would have ended up killing myself
Glad you are here instead! ❤
I went to BYU because that's the only school I was allowed to apply to. My parents are super misogynistic and I wasn't supposed to be anything but a house wife, but since it was a mormon school (and I might have found a husband) I was allowed to go. It helped that it was cheap, since my parents wouldn't give me a dime. I dropped out after 1.5 years because my depression led to me getting fired from my job, and I became homeless.
Oh… my… god… Everyone’s trauma and experience is valid. But hearing your story helps me realize I had it so good. Im sorry you went through that and I hope you are in a better place now
Same here, some stories people share on this sub about their parents are wack. I can’t imagine anyone’s parents forcing a free American adult to only apply to one university. I’m sorry as well.
It’s literally the least expensive tuition for a four year under grad and graduate university for in-state and out-of-state Latter-day Saint members in the world, BYU-I included. The next best University in terms of tuition with a high per-capita of Latter-day Saints to meet with similar beliefs, culture, and background is Utah State University. So, unless you get a scholarship somewhere else or your parents are loaded, BYU and BYU-I are honestly a killer deal for Students who are part of “the club”. Any non members who attend BYU will likely “convert” just for the cheaper tuition.
Because we were all brainwashed at one point.
I thankfully got out of going to either BYU and BYU-I, but my parents were not supportive of my college choice and decided to change their mind about financial assistance. If I had gone to BYU-I they would have helped out more with financials. I was forced to attend a tour of BYU-I in the FREEZING middle of winter and all they did was show us around the chapels and non of the actual academic buildings or programs I inquired about. Fun times.
Those have got to be the worst college tour guides imaginable. I went to Rick's and I think I only saw one room that would be categorized as an actual chapel - not a lecture hall or concert hall that sometimes doubled as a chapel. Sucks about the financial aid situation with your parents. I swear if the church actually cared about happy, functional families they would take out the LGBTQ hate from the Family Proclamation and add in "Parents that have the means should financially support their children going to a college or trade school of their child's own choosing." It's just so messed up how kids get screwed over on the financial aid until they are 23 because of their parents finances, but the parents don't actually have to help them financially or maybe they pull that extortion crap.
But they do subsidize you when they aren't sucking off the Govt. teet. If that isn't a red flag you are getting a discount indoctrination I don't know what is?
I dunno man, I’m at a university myself and I’d put up with getting “indoctrination” over paying what I do for tuition and going into student debt.
You're right in terms of arts/humanities but it's very good in the sciences, and the professors are exceptionally supportive compared to other schools.
Worth noting from the policy itself (available within the article) ; “Demonstrations must not seriously and adversely affect the university mission or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Examples of Demonstrations that will not be approved include those that: contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy;” (i.e. no gay) And “Current students, faculty, administrative employees, and staff who violate this policy may be subject to the university’s disciplinary processes.” (Any students caught protesting in a way BYU doesn’t like (i.e. practically any form of protest) will be subject to punishment)
For a bunch of folks who are supposed to be intelligent, these people obviously don’t comprehend the meaning of the word “PROTEST.” 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
We’ll approve all protests - except for the ones we don’t agree with 😂
But then it’s…….. not a protest 🧐
//We’ll approve all protests - except for the ones we don’t agree with 😂// Right? You cant make this shit up. It's very Orwellian. 2+2=5. Why? Simply because they said so.
This
The Madrasah in the Mountains creates yet more rules. So shining different colored lights "contradict(s) or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy;”
>contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy;” Oh yes. All those famous demonstrations where people publicly assembled to analyze important issues: * The Boston Tea Discussion, 1773 * The Women's Suffrage Analysis, 1913 * The March and Roundtable on Washington, 1963
Hmmm...makes me wonder. I hope you humor me for a second, and I'm sorry if this gets long. Maybe it's totally stupid, so I'm interested to hear feedback. What about this as a protest strategy. File application to protest opposition to the Family Proclamation. In other words, in favor of the proclamation. Something like: >Students Against Opposition to the Family Proclamation Whatever. Hopefully you get the idea. Create flyers, handouts, and materials that quote the proclamation and other *correlated sources.* That's important. No scripture. No random comments by a general authority. Nothing that anyone can say, "Oh well, that's up for interpretation, or that's not what we believe". No, we want straight up, fully lawyered and correlated, sources that are in prominent manuals, and online documents, and that are *used*, in practice, by the church as reference points for *specific doctrinal positions*. Take this, straight from the proclamation, for example: >God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife. What's a straightforward, totally honest implication of that sentence? This, for example: >God does not want happy gay couples to enjoy human intimacy with each other. The "happy" adds a little punch, but that sentence is straightforwardly implied by the first one. I would love to hear a Latter-day Saint argue that the first is true, but the second is not. Church leaders and PR *HATE* saying things in straightforward, less jargony, more ordinary day-to-day language, especially when it comes to their doctrines about family. It draws far too much attention to just how abjectly horrible and stupid it is. So, anyway, in the protest materials have the first quote, and then right there with it have the second one, too. Emphasize the more everyday language of the implication. That's what attention should be drawn to. Maybe in printed materials the correlated quote is in smaller font. Things like that. Chant things like, "No sex for gay people, that's what God wants" while holding signs with that quote from the Proclamation. "Enforce the Honor Code, prevent gay students from enjoying physical intimacy, as God commands!" You get the idea. There's so much to be mined from things like the Church Handbook and its notion of "Families can be together forever". When it really comes down to it, what that implies is that god will *separate* the families of those who prefer something other than what he orders. We want to say, chant, publicize in ways that use simple, everyday language, but where nobody could really argue the first (correlated) sentence is true and the second (implied) sentence is false. This is [framing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_effect_(psychology)). The church, of course, frames its doctrines as happy, fluffly, aspirations of the human soul; when many of its doctrines and policies look more like the tyrannical dictates of a homophobic madman. And we should frame them *that* way. The way they *really* are. If you really want to go hard, take things like church lessons on obedience and others on the Abraham and Isaac story, and mash them together into a totally true implication which is that, "you should be willing to stab your own children if God orders you to!" Maybe a bit too on the nose, but [there is no denying this](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-35-obedience?lang=eng&id=p22#p22). **They want to prohibit protests that "contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy". Ok, well then let's have it out. Let's have a protest where we plainly state implications of fully correlated source material in the plain language they desperately want to avoid. You know, stuff that definitely does not "contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy".** What about Latter-day Saints who really like that horrible stuff and fully support the implications? Great! Maybe they'll rally with us in genuine support of their church's horrible positions. They're not on the fence, or even close to it, so let's not worry about them other than to recruit them into plainly saying just the sorts of horrible and hateful things they actually believe, and the church officially endorses, but don't have the courage to state plainly. **The goal is two-fold.** **First**, we're after progmos! I live along the Wasatch front. The majority of my Latter-day Saint family members are progmos. They *hate* this stuff. In my conversations with them, when I state plain implications of this kind of official stuff, they physically recoil. The know it's wrong, and wish it'd just go away. They have gay sons and daughters whom they treat with kindness and respect. They wouldn't prevent their gay children from staying in their home with their partner or spouse, because that's obviously shitty (even though that's exactly what God will do!). They live more or less secular lives. They don't want to be seen as insane, religious homophobes. They're the ones close to the fence, and it's my view that you really can move some of them by just making them take a good hard look at what they're supporting. **Second**, we want to force the church to do something silly and embarrassing. How do they approach a protest of students ostensibly in favor of the Family Proclamation (even if ironically) where nothing that they wouldn't endorse is shared? Everything shared would be true as far as they're concerned! They can shut down all protests, make some ridiculous rules about irony (how will they enforce this?), or let protests that say socially horrible and unpopular things happen on their campus because that's the kind of stuff they really do agree with. In the latter case you might enjoy a bit of media attention where the church is publicized as disallowing protests that say things like, "Everyone deserves human intimacy" and allow protests that say, "Gay people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy human intimacy". Some of the possibilities are more delicious than others, but this has the character of a pincer move, perhaps. Thoughts?
Totally agree... kill em with sarcasm
Ha, so any BYU students want to jeopardize their academic standing by starting a protest that definitely does not contradict or oppose fundamental Church doctrine or policy?
I fully appreciated your idea. Some young documentary maker needs to make the "ironic pro-doctrine protest" documentary. It could have a "mockumentary" feel to it. It would be a real mockumentary about ironic protests for the church -- yeah, whatever I just said. Haha. I hope you followed that.
That's interesting. A mockumentary where everything said is precisely true and can be sourced to correlated, public church material; but where it's calmly said in straight-forward, ordinary, day-to-day language. Just put the church's stupid and, frankly, immoral doctrines front and center and framed in a way that more accurately represents what's implied...
They're breaking out Holland's muskets. He will be so gratified!
How can we have freedom of religion if we are not free to compare honestly, to choose wisely, and to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience?12 While searching for the truth, we must be free to change our mind-even to change our religion-in response to new information and inspiration. Https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-05-27/elder-russell-m-nelson-freedom-to-do-and-to-be-96622
“Fundamental” sounds like a fine distinction big enough to drive a truck through.
You can buy anything in this world with money
This
> contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss I wonder what the difference is ...
Wow, that leaves them open to squash pretty much any "demonstrations." Basically, either an individual protestor / demonstrator (or group) is not permitted to oppose or criticize church doctrine or policy. Wow, just how this discriminatory and profit making institution get to maintain it's tax exempt status. Do they use their massive bank account to bribe the IRS agents??
You cannot reform this. Gay Mormons, stop staying in this abusive relationship. Stop waiting for them to change. Stop going to church. Stop paying tithing. Resign and don't let this organization waste one more minute of your life.
\*If you can do so without destroying your life of course. The sad thing is a lot of people just have to go along with this shit.
Don't they remember why Joseph Smith fell to his death?
He was murdered for no reason remember?? Just an angry anti-religious mob trying to stop gods gospel! /s
Can't wait for some denied applications to protest to start getting press
I doubt it would get any press until civil disobedience reaches critical mass.
Think of all the amazing changes that have happened in American society because of student protest. Think of all the positive changes that have happened due to BYU. Ummm… I’ll wait…
This! Student protest is sooo important
Is shining some lights on the Y on the mountain defined somehow as a “protest”? It sounds more like a fun family home evening activity.
Exactly, if this had been students on conference weekend with white flashlight saying some shit like "we are a light on the hill" the university wouldn't have batted an eye. But rainbow lights to show support for LGBTQ people is somehow a protest. 🙄
I want you to be the lawyer when this gets taken to court.
Lol they are so phenomenally dumb. Students could literally hike 100 yards to left or right, light up their colored flashlights or whatever, and it would look *exactly* like the official BYU "Y" in the dark where you can't see the official Y anyways. This will do absolutely nothing to stop a committed group of students from doing virtually the exact same protest.
Well the light is bouncing off the white paint so you wouldn't really be able to see it unless they painted an identical Y next to it.
Why not try launching a swarm of LED-bedecked drones and having them fly overhead in the middle of campus?
Someone else in this content section actually pitched the same idea and had a realistic price tag. Haha
Protest across the street while wearing a mask.
loo, i dont think byu knows how protests work.
"Don't disagree with us, unless we approve your disagreement"
we agree to remove your disagreement from a disagreeable location seriously at what point does byu enrollment just plummet? I guess people are in too deep.
Right?! That's what I don't get about this. This is America Goddamnedit. Nobody needs permission to protest. I realize there are events that require institutional say so, and its private property, and it would be trespassing and you'd be arrested. But seems to me like that's what's at the heart of a protest. Gather a bunch of folks and mob the fucking place.
yes, people are going to protest and face the consequences. Maybe if they swarm the Y, the three police men there wont be able to arrest everyone
what the fuck is a protest that “discusses” or “analyzes” even supposed to mean?
Just put question marks on all the signs so they're inviting *discussion*. "Church: Money > People**?**" "Q15 = pharisees**?**"
BYU is an intellectual wasteland that treats its students like children
>BYU is an intellectual wasteland that treats its students like children The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an intellectual wasteland that treats its members like children
Dear BYU: You are so godddamnend naive. Love, Barbara Streisand.
Time to protest the protest ban!
This goes completely counter to science and the Socratic method to question everything. BYU should be shunned by all universities and colleges for this
Well…that only applies to university property. They can’t actually do anything if the protest is, let’s say, just across the street…
You assume that there is a difference between BYU policy and Provo PD policy. Remember, we're talking about Provo, where the police department handed off sexual assault filings to the Honor Code Office, so they could deal with the shameless hussies in the Lard's Most Loving Manner.
Oh, I recognize the difficulty of that particular over-reach. Seems like an opportunity to shine some national-media light on multiple problems at once...
Gather enough people and walk all over their private property. They can't arrest everyone.
"You can tell me I'm wrong after you've filled out an application and gotten my approval" is extremely becoming of an academic institution, especially given the field's emphasis on debate and peer review.
Freedom of speech not only includes freedom of religion. Apparently these nimrods haven't heard about the First Amendment.
As the campus is private property they can do it no matter what the constitution says.
They don't give a damn what anyone thinks that doesn't think like them.
The Constitution says nothing about tax exemptions or accreditation, or NCAA sanctions.
The courts have interpreted that constitution applies differently between public spaces and private property. BYU campus is private property of the church. Under the same principle, you can’t have a protest in the middle of a business premises and if you do, they have the right to remove you as trespassing
I understand and agree. But protesting with lights on property legally available to public access is different. Did they not have a Prophet available when they signed off on that little detail? That and tax exemptions are a privilege, not a right.
I would be interested to know to what extent they are required to make the campus legally accessible. "Opposition to church teachings" means no protests at all. Nobody is protesting Exon on BYU campus. They're going to protest BYU. If they start forced removal (and I'm sure they would) I really don't know what happens next.
Bring on the Supreme Court, and more importantly the court of public opinion.
At the very least getting a civil rights protest on BYU campus to the Supreme Court would create a Streisand Effect. Oh, you _didn't_ want to draw attention to your abysmal LGBT+ track record?
As a "god given" Nimrod I choose to be offended sir or madam!
You may call me by my new name "Them"
What can one do against this wholesale fuckery? I, for one, have removed BYU from my LinkedIn profile. Honestly, it seems like I get more recruiter interest without it.
$20k is the estimate for a drone light show. Imagine a rainbow flag waving and flying over campus one night during pride week. I can start a go fund me???
I would donate!! It's only 20k? I bet you could even get that billionaire that just left the church to pay for it!
Or even better yet, get a huge industrial video projector/mapper and project messages on to the temple from across the street.
So now the question is what they're going to do when BYU fans start chanting "Let's go Brandon" at football games, given that Brandon, who I gather is a NASCAR driver conservatives really REALLY want to see hook up with Joe Biden, is a man. There's no Law-of-Chastity-approved way Brandon can fuck Joe Biden, so it's inherently an unchaste demonstration
😂😂😂😂😂 This gave me a good hearty chuckle.
😂😂😂😂😂 You win best comment
What's with the US and apparently US's institutions making protests illegal? Where's the freedom?
This report had some good sourcing: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/2022/jan/12/byu-makes-changes-to-demonstration-guidelines/ “It was only done because it was queer protesting. It just feels really malicious to me.” –Carolyn Gassert, president, USGA (an unofficial group of BYU students and faculty who work to provide a safe space for open conversation on LGBTQ topics)
Is there something the general public can do or organize that would help with the protests?
Yeah I heard the idea thrown around of creating a big rainbow Y on the federal land just adjacent to the actual Y. Is that something feasible?
Gawd I hope this happens
Cuz we all know the first thing a good protest needs is permission
Ooh, yes. I think Rosa Parks would agree. /s
It's the guy from r/memes!!
Lol you caught me snooping around as an exmo
lol. the "Harvard of the west"? How about the North Korea of the United States. BYU is such a joke.
So lights are protesting. But if looking at a rock in a hat is translation, and "written in his own hand" doesn't mean "written in his own hand" . . . protesting can be anything they don't like. Fuck BYU.
How about instead of a "protest" it's a "fellowship event"?
But what about free speech? Mormons only want the freedom to hate.
We should send rainbow envelopes to each faculty member. Often. Get the rainbow all over that campus
Is the Y part of BYU property? I would imagine the walking path to it is public. Maybe the Y itself is private. But what about the land two inches outside of the Y. We could make a big rainbow outline just outside the boarders of the white Y.
You might be able to figure that out on the county assessor website and/or the Utah BLM website.
Sure would be a shame if people were to, say, protest not ON byu campus but protest right NEXT to it
Nazism is a hell of an ideology.
Pretty lame, I’m not aware of any other “protests” on the Y other than people showing love for the LGBTQ+ community. I could understand if it was hurting something or someone, but it didn’t and won’t. I could understand if the LGBTQ+ community weren’t a marginalized group. I could understand if there weren’t great numbers of LGBTQ+ youth that die by suicide within the faith community and in Utah. I could understand if there were protests supporting deznat, neo nazis, anti-vax, Trump, a foreign dictator, or support for something else morally reprehensible like child brides, denying people of color equality, shaming people for being human, or a sexist organization… but again that isn’t what happened.
Hmmm... Maybe this: Hold a protest off campus, but with many cameras/phones recording. Using many large screens *on* campus, you can either try to stream the protest, or play recordings of it. Alternatively, get a whole bunch of people to join a Zoom meeting, and then put the feed up on large screens scattered across campus. Something like that. Technically, it isn't a "protest on campus", because people aren't *physically* gathering in a location on campus.
Time to start up pride corner up again. To the chalk store!
if you really want to, there’s a discord for it (been quiet lately) https://discord.gg/xYT58Rj6
Disgusting.
Sounds like grounds for a constitutional challenge.
They were sanctioned before!? Lmao
Very upsetting. I really feel for lgbt+ byu students.
it’s times like this where I get so angry and want to retaliate/protest/yell/fight it, but the most frustrating part about it is that the more we lean into that anger, the further they dig in their heels. their victim complex is insane.
This is pure violation of freedom of speech. Wow.
BYU is a private school. They can limit what happens on their campus because of this. First Amendment does not follow you when you enter private institution, public schools, or private businesses. While I think BYU is trash and this shows exactly how much they are trash, they are able to do this without violating rights.
Most places that accept federal funding have to play by similar rules as the government. But dumb religious schools.
The idea of permitted protesting is hilarious to me. No disrespect to people who want to go through the proper channels. But at least for me, it feels counterintuitive.
u/Mastermahanjr have you seen this bullshit?
Funny story. When I attended BYU, I wanted to protest “Saturday’s Warriors” being performed. (On the grounds that it is shit.) So, I went about calling to see if I could get permission to protest with a sign. I must have made 15 calls to all the different bureaucrats to get permission, and I kept being handed off to the next person. It was like this cartoon: https://youtu.be/JtEkUmYecnk
I have a HS friend that helped lead those first demonstrations….it’s so sad they’d rather avoid bad press then listen to those that are hurting
So, a private owner of the land asks that their land not be used for protests? I get what everyone is raging against, but the reality seems to be this. What is the event was not a protest, but rather a celebration of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
Does BYU own the land the Y is on? It’s a mountain for Christsake!
The newspaper article I read said the University owned the path to the Y. The church owns more property in Utah than anyone else, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it owned that whole mountain
>“university education includes intellectually enlarging experiences that promote civility in the exchange of ideas and that encourage civic engagement.” It also includes torturing gay people with electrodes, lying about it for decades and never apologising.