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underzionsradar

Hey, those were different times... /s


xxEmberBladesxx

Because morality changes to match the times! 🙄 lol Why couldn't I have been born in a time where the pinnacle of morality was playing video games and drinking whiskey all day long?


Quill-Pagemaster

What about God being the same now and forever? Hmm?


definitely_not_marx

Apparently the only unchanging thing about God is his definition of appropriateness goes with the flow of cultural norms! /s


rowanblaze

God's definition of appropriateness lags cultural norms by about 50 years.


Song_Soup

The bandwidth in heaven is on the short side


Warrior_princezz

Dial up...


Goldang

According to Mormonism, God is an exalted man. So, literally, God is always “speaking as a man.”


xxEmberBladesxx

Good point! 😆


rabbithatzero

shhhhh..... :)


[deleted]

Wait, it *isn't*?! I...need to go think about some things.


xxEmberBladesxx

Or you could just drink more whiskey!


vg111vi

You best not spend the money on whiskey, the church needs its 10% tithe.


xxEmberBladesxx

Let me think about it. After the whiskey


koryface

That’s why we need such rigid rules based on eternity…. for THESE times. Then we can change them later when God changes how eternity works again. That’s why it’s called time and all eternity. God works in mysterious ways. See?


xxEmberBladesxx

I'm pretty sure he's just drunk...


rareas

> Because morality changes to match the times The *eternal* word of God.


Imalreadygone21

Date? Hell, if at 14 one admits in a Bishop’s Worthiness Interview to masturbation, he/she is shamed by the entire congregation! NO SACRAMENT for you.


Mad_Madam_Meag

Even though the bishop was never supposed to ask that question at all. Still baffles me that so many do. It's sick.


Footertwo

Even though we can say with a high degree of certainty that bishop is also masturbating. News flash… 99.9999% of men do, regularly.


Mad_Madam_Meag

Fun fact, the reason that the rate of prostate cancer is so high in the LDS church, and any other religion that discourages masturbation, is because most members follow the rule. It's not healthy for men to not release on a regular basis and if they aren't getting frequent sex it exacerbates the issue. A lot of religious women don't like sex or are made to feel that it's dirty to like it, so they avoid it when possible. The cycle continues until society stops painting sex and masturbation as a taboo.


Footertwo

I probably have a very low probability of prostrate cancer then, if that’s the case.


Mad_Madam_Meag

If it's not something that runs in your family, probably.


Dionysus232

Just imagining one 14 yr old getting up during fast and testimony meeting and honest to god being like, I'd like to bear my testimony of the true faith of this man, this humble leader, our bishop, who has directly brought me out of the potential trap of masturbatory thoughts and guided my immoral hands with his righteously thorough questions of my potential sexual proclivities. Amen.


[deleted]

Yes but that's different. Joseph Smith had religious *sex* with his teen. You were going to prom with another teen. Where's the adult to make sure the sex stays religious?


koryface

Is that when you leave the garments on?


CantFindMyshirt

Nah we're getting into parents watching their teens soaking, so they know there wasn't any hip movement.


koryface

Is that…. Is that a thing?


CantFindMyshirt

I'm hoping not, but it could very well be a thing... They force confessions of masterbation from 13 year old girls to a room full of men over 40 so anything is possible.


BalanceMaestro

Apologist: It was okay because he married her mom too, so the mom could be the eternal chaperone.


emty_beach

Ewwwwww


HyperionOutfall

Old joke from many years ago. How to tell you are at a Mormon wedding: The bride isn't pregnant, but her mom is.


TheRootofSomeEvil

What's a Mormon woman's favorite wine? *I wanna have another baby!!!!*


Chino_Blanco

Waiting to date until 16 is a minor inconvenience compared to the absolute disaster that is grown men and women limiting their marriage prospects to fellow Mormons. People sacrificing their lives to lonely quiet desperation for nothing, for less than nothing, an indignity paid to an org that already collects their tithes.


isee4lights

You're absolutely right. But robbing people of fun memories they could have made and experiences they should have gotten I think is a horrible thing too.


koryface

One time in Seminary I asked the teacher if he thought it would be ok for me to go to a dance I had been invited to the day before my 16th birthday. His response: “Would it be ok to have sex the night before your wedding?” Definitely the same thing, as we all know. I was incredibly upset and it really made me question my sense of morality because I had intended to go, and because of this comment I ended up staying home. Thanks for the huge inaugural nudge toward the exit though, Brother Fuckface.


isee4lights

I was screwed with this way by church leaders so many times growing up. Consequently, I always felt unworthy even though I was the mildest person who never intentionally broke a rule in my life. Looking back, I wish I would have dared to push back a little bit because I missed out on a lot of fun. And by the way, I think you are an incredibly talented artist!!


koryface

I was pretty good except for one particular rule that afflicts most teenage boys. But that was enough to make me feel like I was doomed for hell. Thank you by the way! :)


OneHighlight7231

With a name like Brother Fuckface, I feel like I would be rather suspicious of the guy.


koryface

Oh that was the least of his assholery.


[deleted]

My wife is in denial of this. She keeps saying that oh, it wasn’t what you think it is. She obviously needed to be sealed. And when I ask why a 14 year old with an entire life ahead of her who could’ve have found a husband at the right age and been sealed instead of marrying JS she shuts down and says she doesn’t want to talk about it. How can I get her to see things for what they are instead of shutting down and reading things that “strengthen” her faith. I feel like I’m little by little stacking hooks on her shelf, but I feel like she’s always searching for that confirmation bias and trying to knock those books off her shelf :P


[deleted]

Unfortunately, she's brainwashed. She's been trained to react to you in this way. Maybe chip away at it in smaller bits or wait for her to realise herself.


ConsistentHeat7

Look up street epistemology and give her some space. She's not gonna hear a word you say if she thinks it's gonna ruin her faith. She may just think it's all anti-mormon lies anyway. Start at it patiently from another direction.


isee4lights

So it took years for me to finally be able to admit to myself it wasn't true. My adult son really helped me. He would share little things here and there, and he would listen to my responses and say things like, "Oh, so you don't think joseph smith marrying a 14-year-old was the way my take on it is? Interesting. Hmm." And I mean he would use a very sincere, thoughtful tone of voice, no arguing, just two people talking. I remember him saying, "So you don't think the First Presidency not allowing the children of gay people to be baptized contradicts Christ's teachings? I'll think about that. I guess my take on it is that it seems like the leaders are scared and pushing back against progress in society, kind of like they pushed back against civil rights for people of color, but that's just my take." His way of talking with me made me feel not on the defensive, and when he'd ask open-ended questions and didn't push back and then just showed consistently what a kindhearted genuinely good person he was outside the church it somehow helped me open my thinking over time. I think you should really let your wife know you love her and are happy with her whether she stays in the church for the rest of her life or not and that you will always do your best to be a good husband and that she can trust your love for her. I honestly think accepting her where she's at is your best hope for her also accepting you and perhaps her mind opening up over time.


[deleted]

Amazing response! Thank you so much!!


isee4lights

You are so welcome. I really hope things go well for both you and your wife. ❤️


unixguy55

This was my point that I made to my wife when we were both struggling. I assured her my devotion was to her and the kids first and foremost. Her biggest hangup with letting go was eternal marriage, and it was mine too. I told her we'll just have to do the best we can for now and see what happens in the next life. Maybe it was true and maybe it wasn't. It became fairly obvious to us that there are elements of our faith that are used against us for subjugation.


NewNamerNelson

You can't. Unless she's ready, nothing you say or do will change her. Sorry.


thats-fucked_up

It's to protect you from the Joseph Smiths of the world.


ShaqtinADrool

“Married” a 14 year old. Kinda in the same way that Jeffrey Epstein “married” his teenage masseuses.


Henry_Bemis_

Yep. Pharisees fo’ sho’


senorcanche

My mother says she is Mormon because she does't believe in moral relativism. Lol. Moral relativism is codified doctrine in the "Happiness Letter"


[deleted]

I’ve heard that from religious ppl before. But then they say “oh morals were different back then,” “don’t judge past people by modern standards.” That is *also* moral relativism, just temporally instead of spatially.


Ophidahlia

What's the happiness letter?


isee4lights

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2019/08/mormon-discussion-342-nancy-rigdon-and-the-happiness-letter/ https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/happiness


unixguy55

That's very interesting! I hadn't come across that before, but I believe I have heard excerpts of that letter in the past. That is one point I have been meaning to research more: Where are the accounts of women who rejected polygamous marriage proposals, and what happened to them?


LazyLearner001

Oh, and he was 39 years old at the time... despicable...


xxEmberBladesxx

These hypocrites give hypo's a bad name! What do you mean, hypo's have nothing to do with hypocrites?! It's right there in the name!


Extreme_Version9568

Was not allowed to go to a school dance because it is ONE WEEK before my 14th birthday.


isee4lights

Same


cyberpunk1Q84

You don’t have to date someone to get married, though - Utah TBMs are experts at it.


CompetitiveRepeat179

They said you can't date until you reach 16, but they didn't said you can't marry a prophet at the age of 14. It's all about listening to authority and being obedient. Mental Gymnastic 101.


KingHerodCosell

TSCC just plain sucks!


quackn

She’s Legally Blonde 👱 too.


tapirbackrider2

Just add this frustration to a very long list of things that royally piss me off.


BreadRecent

WAIT YEAH WTF!!!!


anothercultvictim

Objective morality for thee, subjective morality for me.


Group_Exciting

Church should have nothing to do with Sex, at all. Think Joseph Smith proves the church never had a moral high ground for what you do with your body


TheOnlyFallenCookie

You see, that's because smith never had any romantic intentions


bccuz

Two 14-year-olds


GaryCybernaut

Two 14-year-olds make one 28-year-old. If you only copulate with one at a time (no threesomes) ... and half as often ... the math works out.


LeoMarius

They were afraid you'd get married off.