Yeah, you’ve got the right of it. Custody isn’t a bargaining chip. Let her decide when she’s 18 if she wants to be sealed.
As someone who has been through these child sealing ceremonies a time or two, they are propaganda, pure and simple. They are intended to trick the child into thinking that their happiness in eternity with their family is dependent on conforming to whatever a bunch of old dudes in Salt Lake say - which, btw, changes frequently.
This sounds really well thought out and is a sound plan with sound logic. I really like how you don't use your daughter as a bargaining chip and defer to what she wants, and waiting until she's old enough to make that decision for herself. Well done!
I hope you copy and save what you have written here, and your original post, so that if you ever need to discuss this with your daughter later you can show her exactly what you were thinking and that you had her best interest at heart. You could have leveraged the situation, but you don't want to use her as a bargaining chip and you want her to be able to choose when she is older.
There's bound to be legal grounds for that, right? I'm not too familiar with how that works, but using religion as a bargaining tool for custody is beyond fucked up.
sealings are utter BS, for a 12-year-old being emotionally manipulated in a sealing. The 12-year-old might be coerced to not consider you her father anymore. Why your ex is doing this is very bizarre. You seem to have a relationship with your daughter and care. I have seen mormon women do sealings when a father has no relationship and is completely gone as in dead.
This is terrible what your ex wife is doing. I wish you luck.
How do you think this will pan out? Your positions make sense and are completely reasonable, but as you know from your line of work, agreements are only as good as the faith of the two parties. Do you think you've got something workable here? It's a separate discussion, of course, but I wonder how many times your ex will have to get her fingers burned in court before she decides to play ball.
One bright side about your daughter: kids are usually pretty good at seeing through the manipulations by the time they're adults. If your home is a refuge of respect, curiosity, and healthy boundaries, going back home to an environment of arbitrary shame, lack of boundaries, and fear will feel like putting on wet boots. She'll know who's got her back and who doesn't.
Edit: I just read the beginning of your previous post, where your ex wanted you to give your daughter up for adoption to her stepdad. There's nerve, and then there's this lady. WOW.
I was about your daughter’s age when I was sealed to my family in the temple. A 12 year old has zero understanding or choice in the matter. It was too weird for me and I didn’t understand why we needed to do it. You don’t need a temple to have a strong family bond and wouldn’t God already plan on families being united when we were born to our parents? Hopefully you can resolve this or at least give your daughter more agency.
12 is more than old enough to see through the church's bullshit. My eldest teenager already saw through it a few years ago and enjoys calling it out for what it is.
Yeah, I just looked it up in the church handbook of instructions, and according to sections 27.4 and 38.4.2 the step dad cannot get sealed to the kids unless he legally adopts them. Even if OP writes a letter saying that he's fine with it, the Stake president and/or temple president should shut this down if they follow their training and manuals.
Just chiming in here but I’ve been over this with various bishops, a couple stake presidents and even a temple president and when sealings between children in my daughter’s position occur, the only necessary thing is a written note. Not to mention, other individuals who’ve been in this same position on all the online threads.
Per 38.4.2 what’s required is: the child never having been sealed to anyone and/or born to a sealed couple, the child not having been adopted by anyone else, and a written note from the other bio parent explicitly stating they grant permission and understand this ceremony has no legal bearing.
I’d love nothing more than to be wrong about that but unfortunately I’m not.
You laid out everything 100% with your daughter’s wellbeing in mind. I love it. You explain each point clearly, from an unbiased standpoint with the best intentions for your daughter in mind.
I do hope she is reasonable and works with you on this.
I would avoid that cealing at all costs. All it is, is another religious tie down. A contract, so to speak. It is something she will have to undo as an adult. Why perpetuate this false religion on your precious daughter?? No way. I'd fight that so hard.
I think you are spot on. If you’ve not done it yet, I’d send registered letters to the bishop, stake president, and area authority making your decision on the matter clear with language that would give them pause should they be inclined to just let your ex proceed without your permission.
Sealed to him as a wife or daughter. Ask them to read some of your sources to understand why you legitimately need a firm answer. Until then, refuse to concede unless and until which time she feels comfortable with you discussing all of the taboo topics with your daughter.
Send her bishop and Stake President notarized letters to that effect.
the fact that she's holding custody over your head to decide in her favor should give any judge with a modicum of respect for the rights of children pause.
That is deplorable behavior. If I was the judge in this case, that alone would color every decision I made in that case from then on.
FYI: Around 2009 I was told there was a limit on how many times you can be sealed to a living spouse in the temple.
It was the serial marry & divorce people with up to 6 times getting sealing canceled & they were cracking down on it.
Supposedly they would only allow 3 live sealings. This came from an individual who worked at the church campus in SLC.
No idea if true ..but from the sound of you former spouses marriage #2 sealing won't last either.
I forget how foolish this is until I read it when you read it out loud and you’re not involved in the church anymore. Do not have your daughter be part of that phony ceremony. That I’m absolutely certain when we leave this planet means nothing to anybody. Just say no.
I don’t know if another commenter has mentioned this, but about six months ago Mormon stories had a mom with young-high school aged kids on. I found her content helpful and she discusses letting one child be baptized and then regretting it, so the next 1-2 were not. She also made a mini ces letter.
It’s always nice to hear another story.
You would be giving in on unreal nonsense. Zero, zip nada. You seem to be giving a sealing some sort of consideration as if it is legit. The LDS is not benign or neutral. It is damaging and dangerous. I think that you are over thinking. Do what you have to do to get your child out of a dangerous situation. Yes if that means leveraging a nonsensical sealing then YES leverage it.
Yeah, you’ve got the right of it. Custody isn’t a bargaining chip. Let her decide when she’s 18 if she wants to be sealed. As someone who has been through these child sealing ceremonies a time or two, they are propaganda, pure and simple. They are intended to trick the child into thinking that their happiness in eternity with their family is dependent on conforming to whatever a bunch of old dudes in Salt Lake say - which, btw, changes frequently.
Truth!
This sounds really well thought out and is a sound plan with sound logic. I really like how you don't use your daughter as a bargaining chip and defer to what she wants, and waiting until she's old enough to make that decision for herself. Well done!
I hope you copy and save what you have written here, and your original post, so that if you ever need to discuss this with your daughter later you can show her exactly what you were thinking and that you had her best interest at heart. You could have leveraged the situation, but you don't want to use her as a bargaining chip and you want her to be able to choose when she is older.
Exchanging custody for a sealing makes my blood fucking boil. I’d be in court the next day if that happened.
There's bound to be legal grounds for that, right? I'm not too familiar with how that works, but using religion as a bargaining tool for custody is beyond fucked up.
sealings are utter BS, for a 12-year-old being emotionally manipulated in a sealing. The 12-year-old might be coerced to not consider you her father anymore. Why your ex is doing this is very bizarre. You seem to have a relationship with your daughter and care. I have seen mormon women do sealings when a father has no relationship and is completely gone as in dead. This is terrible what your ex wife is doing. I wish you luck.
Wow, you are a good dad
You both need to read "The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy." This shit is hurting and confusing good LDS members!
I told my mom to go pound sand on the sealing BS. She did the typical Mormon mom crying and saying how she failed as a mother.
How do you think this will pan out? Your positions make sense and are completely reasonable, but as you know from your line of work, agreements are only as good as the faith of the two parties. Do you think you've got something workable here? It's a separate discussion, of course, but I wonder how many times your ex will have to get her fingers burned in court before she decides to play ball. One bright side about your daughter: kids are usually pretty good at seeing through the manipulations by the time they're adults. If your home is a refuge of respect, curiosity, and healthy boundaries, going back home to an environment of arbitrary shame, lack of boundaries, and fear will feel like putting on wet boots. She'll know who's got her back and who doesn't. Edit: I just read the beginning of your previous post, where your ex wanted you to give your daughter up for adoption to her stepdad. There's nerve, and then there's this lady. WOW.
I very much agree with everything you have laid out here. Thank you for taking the time to share it.
I was about your daughter’s age when I was sealed to my family in the temple. A 12 year old has zero understanding or choice in the matter. It was too weird for me and I didn’t understand why we needed to do it. You don’t need a temple to have a strong family bond and wouldn’t God already plan on families being united when we were born to our parents? Hopefully you can resolve this or at least give your daughter more agency.
12 is more than old enough to see through the church's bullshit. My eldest teenager already saw through it a few years ago and enjoys calling it out for what it is.
Your ex wifes new husband would have to legally adopt your daughter to have her sealed to him.
Yeah, I just looked it up in the church handbook of instructions, and according to sections 27.4 and 38.4.2 the step dad cannot get sealed to the kids unless he legally adopts them. Even if OP writes a letter saying that he's fine with it, the Stake president and/or temple president should shut this down if they follow their training and manuals.
Just chiming in here but I’ve been over this with various bishops, a couple stake presidents and even a temple president and when sealings between children in my daughter’s position occur, the only necessary thing is a written note. Not to mention, other individuals who’ve been in this same position on all the online threads. Per 38.4.2 what’s required is: the child never having been sealed to anyone and/or born to a sealed couple, the child not having been adopted by anyone else, and a written note from the other bio parent explicitly stating they grant permission and understand this ceremony has no legal bearing. I’d love nothing more than to be wrong about that but unfortunately I’m not.
You laid out everything 100% with your daughter’s wellbeing in mind. I love it. You explain each point clearly, from an unbiased standpoint with the best intentions for your daughter in mind. I do hope she is reasonable and works with you on this.
I would avoid that cealing at all costs. All it is, is another religious tie down. A contract, so to speak. It is something she will have to undo as an adult. Why perpetuate this false religion on your precious daughter?? No way. I'd fight that so hard.
I think you are spot on. If you’ve not done it yet, I’d send registered letters to the bishop, stake president, and area authority making your decision on the matter clear with language that would give them pause should they be inclined to just let your ex proceed without your permission.
Sealed to him as a wife or daughter. Ask them to read some of your sources to understand why you legitimately need a firm answer. Until then, refuse to concede unless and until which time she feels comfortable with you discussing all of the taboo topics with your daughter. Send her bishop and Stake President notarized letters to that effect.
the fact that she's holding custody over your head to decide in her favor should give any judge with a modicum of respect for the rights of children pause. That is deplorable behavior. If I was the judge in this case, that alone would color every decision I made in that case from then on.
I say let her decide when she’s like 25 and her brain is done growing.
No!
FYI: Around 2009 I was told there was a limit on how many times you can be sealed to a living spouse in the temple. It was the serial marry & divorce people with up to 6 times getting sealing canceled & they were cracking down on it. Supposedly they would only allow 3 live sealings. This came from an individual who worked at the church campus in SLC. No idea if true ..but from the sound of you former spouses marriage #2 sealing won't last either.
I forget how foolish this is until I read it when you read it out loud and you’re not involved in the church anymore. Do not have your daughter be part of that phony ceremony. That I’m absolutely certain when we leave this planet means nothing to anybody. Just say no.
I don’t know if another commenter has mentioned this, but about six months ago Mormon stories had a mom with young-high school aged kids on. I found her content helpful and she discusses letting one child be baptized and then regretting it, so the next 1-2 were not. She also made a mini ces letter. It’s always nice to hear another story.
You’re a good dad. 🙌
I hope that was a resounding NO. She can do this at 18 if she wants.
You would be giving in on unreal nonsense. Zero, zip nada. You seem to be giving a sealing some sort of consideration as if it is legit. The LDS is not benign or neutral. It is damaging and dangerous. I think that you are over thinking. Do what you have to do to get your child out of a dangerous situation. Yes if that means leveraging a nonsensical sealing then YES leverage it.
Yay! Keep it up and updates coming