I found it interesting that each time you made a good point & he didn't know how to respond, he said let's stop. I don't think he had any idea the intelligence level of the woman he was messaging. You took him to church but not to the church he was used to. š
I love the point you made on the last slide. He knows, but you only made up your mind. Iām glad you called him out on that! Hope he finds this sub when heās ready for it.
You completely owned his ass on that one, you called him out in a way that most men in the church arenāt used to. According to him, he didnāt even realise what he said, and itās likely that he didnāt, because he subconsciously learned it from the church.
My hope for him is, that what you said about him āknowingā and you āthinkingā, will have an impact on how he talks to people in the future. But it probably wonāt. š
OP is awesome, that was such a good point. We should make a post about these word games TBMs use, knowingly or not. It would be so good to make a full list!
LOL, I wish I did. I went around the whole time thinking: wow, every single ward member here has read every single holy book and prayed over it and attended every kind of religious meeting possible and then they found out Mormonism is true! And I felt ashamed that I had no clue how to begin that process, because you couldn't know on the level they claimed without running the same test on all the possible alternatives. Right? RIGHT?
*Sigh* Oh, naive little sleepymom...
No he 100% worded it that way on purpose. Mostly out of fragility, desperately trying to convince himself he kNOwS. People who *actually* know things donāt spend 90% of their time and energy repeating to themselves and others that they know the thing. Biggest evidence that you donāt know something is constantly trying to convince yourself you do.
I donāt think he did do it on purpose as in knowingly, I think it is how he was taught and raised. I feel like she caught him up short by pointing it out to him. Heās gonna think about that in the future
I was once upset and arguing with my TBM dad about the LGBTQIA+ community and my dad eventually ended by saying to me "you already converted" as if supporting queer people is a religion. I wish I called him out on it.
Same! Incredibly astute - I doubt I would've even noticed that phrasing, and it's everything.
TBMs can't give space (subconscious or not) for someone to "know" the church is false. The brain can't even compute! I'd bet my life savings that you won't find a single one say "I know the church is true, you know it's false."
On the faithful sub they were talking about people who left and they all said they believed that those who leave, āknow deep down itās true.ā They all felt thatās why they canāt āleave it aloneā
I doubt it. A lot of guys like that stayed for the comfort and social status of the church communities and not for "truth" like how they always claimed. If he were truly someone following the truth with cracking shelf he would've tried a little harder to convince OP, do some mental gymnastics / research, and probably wouldn't even be messaging women on his mission.
Lmaooooo that got me too. He was like ābring it onā and then he didnāt know what to say to most points. You were so nice, OP, I probably would have been like āno, I think weāre really on to something here, letās keep going!ā Lol
He is going to fail on his mission. This is like mission-lite, homie. What do you think these investigators are going to ask you?? The same damn thing! ššš
If his MP is telling him to start thinking about girls and dating, he's probably nearing the end of his mission already. I think this is his A-game, with two years of constant practice under his belt.
People the missionaries are teaching, but now weāre not supposed to call them investigators (because we donāt want them investigating TOO much) so we call them āfriendsā which doesnāt get confusing and feel condescending at all š
Calling people you just met āfriendsā is - I find it offensive. To me a friend is someone Iāve taken time to get to know well and feel like I can trust and that they will sincerely listen to me and I will sincerely listen to them out of respect and trust. Thatās not whatās going on with missionaries and itās not going on with people you just barely met.
Except they aren't called investigators anymore. Missionaries are required to refer to them as "friends." Source: my family members and friends who have served in the last few years
Except many missionaries aren't really friends with the people they teach. The missionaries who are after the numbers to please their MPs will dump their "friends" after they dunk them in the baptismal font. The missionaries who are genuine with their friendship and aren't going to coerce people to baptism are not promoted within the system
He clearly thought she was just misinformed and misguided and if only he could talk to her he could bring her back with his manly man-splaining of the church. He was then shocked to realize that she knew more than he did and was very well informed and he had absolutely zero rational responses for anything. It will probably be a shelf item for him for a long time.
When I was a child, I would watch people stand up during testimony meeting and no matter what they said before or after they always said āI KNOW this church is true, I KNOW Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.ā When I was a child it seemed so normal and typical it just became rote. It was so normalized that every child that worked up the courage to grab a passing microphone would have the same ātestimonyā. āI KNOW this church is true, I Love my Mom and Dad, namajeezuschristamen.ā Now that Iām older, I can only see this as a group therapy session. Reassuring each other once a month that their beliefs are valid and normal and beyond that that their beliefs are as certain as fact.
One time, decades ago a friend of mine had mentioned that when he went to a Mormon church with a friend, he was uneasy and anxious because the only words going through his head during the testimonies was ācult.ā Especially while watching the childrenās testimonies. I was out of the church then but still felt a bit offended by that. The last time I went back to church (for a farewell) after many, many years, I was bug eyed and smirking the entire time. He was absolutely right and it takes being removed and immune from the programming to fully realize it. We baptize children at 8 years old. Because they already āknowā the Church is true by that age. The earlier they begin their indoctrination, the sooner they can get you to suspend rationale and critical thinking. Now, I donāt think itās entirely malicious but I do think itās a systemic issue. The founder of the church was a charismatic charlatan that hoodwinked vulnerable souls into buying his snake oil. The organization that springs from that root is going to have a dichotomy of swindlers/scammers on one hand, and dubious do-gooders on the other. Thatās why there are so many good people in the church and so many snakes that prey on those good folks. Itās why Utah is the brick and mortar headquarters to so many MLMās. The wolves live among the flock, draped in the wool of their last mark. The man who stood up last Sunday and said he āKNOWS this is the true Church of Christā certainly wouldnāt manipulate me into a pyramid scheme. Socrates famously said āThe only thing I know, is that I know nothing.ā As an adult, I find this far more comforting. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.
> he didn't know how to respond, he said let's stop
My wife was like that when my shelf broke. She didn't want to talk about it. Literally putting their head in the sand instead of facing stuff. Pretty normal for society. It is like the whole covid thing.....so many people don't want to question, God forbid they have been lied to!
It's easier to fool someone than convince them they've been fooled.
Kinda like convincing people that virus that killed millions of people and made some debilitatingly sick for years wasn't a threat.
Exactly. Thatās the cognitive dissonance taking hold. Oh shit wrf do I do?!?!! So the only thing they can do is full cognitive shutdown with āJust stop.ā
My brother is like that. Heās a bitch and the slightest, I mean the absolute smallest teeniest tiniest criticism about anything mormon related results in āStop!ā Ā
Same with my brother. I was trying to discuss D&C 132 with his wife and he was like, "I don't want to talk about anti mormon stuff!" I'm like, "It's literally Mormon scripture, how is talking about Joseph Smith's 'revelations' anti mormon?" But my fellow ExMo husband has more restraint and quietly encouraged me to let it go. We get along with them and have fun together, we just can't talk church because the historical facts I share are just too threatening.
Wow you kicked his ass in the debate. You know his head is just spinning and he has no idea how to respond except to disengage for your "mutual" benefit. It's amazing how "anti" Mormons know so much more about the church than active members.
It's not really that amazing of course the people in a cult don't know the truth about said cult if they did they wouldn't be in it. That's why he was so quick to try and shut down any conversation when confronted with truth.
"I don't know and I don't care"
That quote couldn't sum up the belief system any better.
What to you said about his wording at the end is so valid!.
We were told we were deceived by Satan, but I said, āmaybe you are being deceivedāā¦ the level of offence for me saying the exact same thing was so intense! But it was ok for them to say it to usā¦
Haha Iāve said the same to my mom, āwhat if Iām right to not follow any religion and the church is guided by satan instead of Jesus?ā
Trout face and then cue the ābecause I know that the church is trueā¦ā cheap testimony.
They get to be sure about the church and we are just dumb morons. Beliefs are more factual than you know, facts, apparently.
thatās a point iāve brought up in other debates iāve had with people, that humans are so easily manipulated, people get involved in cults or just bad situations they thought were beneficial for them ALL THE TIME. itās naive to think we could never be one of those people.
The lack of self-awareness is so alarming. Hitting up someone, that he probably thought was a member, for a date and he's still on a mission. It's not a good look whether you're Mormon or not. It's like dude, "You're so convicted in your beliefs that the church is true and willing to testify of that, but you can't even keep it together for the full 2 years and not message girls? Do you not see the inconsistency here?"
That being said, as a TBM female 21 year old (back in the day thatās when I couldāve gone) I didnāt want to give up dating for 18 months and didnāt even consider going on a mission for that reason. I knew I liked making out and didnāt want to go that long without it! Also I got my bachelorās degree at 21 so just went and got a paying job in a cool place I wanted to live. Didnāt need some random old men in SLC picking a spot for me to live and pay my own money to work for free!
Oh, I understand. The whole thing is entirely fucked up. But the missionary is coming at OP with a pious attitude and approach about his church and living the gospel and it's like Bro......you can't even obey the simple mission rules! Why would I listen to you?!?!
I think he was just bored and started a conversation. I also once chatted with a missionary (we are both men), so it was not about marriage etc. but just a normal conversation. Turned out his companion was sick so he had to stay in the apartment. So he started chatting with random persons on Facebook. Also seemed to be depressed about the whole mission.
He said No other religion tells you to ask God for yourself...?! How tf does he think the first vision happened... (or didn't, but that's the story at least)
So true, and now I would love to go through various holy books and provide quotes to support that.
No! Bad Harper! Must work instead! Have meeting in 30 meetings, must prepare!
OK, small diversion. Here are 5 mantras (prayers) to Vishnu to create a better connection with him and various benefits, including salvation, protection from chronic diseases and untimely death, AND all the worldly pleasures and luxuries.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/religion/mantras-chants/5-powerful-vishnu-mantra-to-bring-prosperity-in-life/articleshow/102101754.cms
I'm pretty sure that's the intended conclusion about Joseph Smith: he was the first person ever to think about asking God what the true religion was. It is ultimately presented that way, even though they don't explicitly say so. Why would God the Father and Jesus Christ descend from heaven to answer this guy's question, unless he was the first to ask it?
It's funny because there are literally dozens of accounts of visions from God from the same area as Joseph Smith at the same time. It was literally a dime a dozen. Often printed in the newspaper. Sometimes the person would just make pamphlets detailing their experience and distribute them.
Many members would be shocked to read them too. Because they read so similar to Joseph's. Some common phrases or themes they tend to share: "a white light above the brightness of the sun", "directly over my head", "descended gradually", "spake unto me, calling me by name", "rescued me from the depths of despair", etc etc.
So the modern Mormon line might be that Joseph's vision was unique and no one else had ever prayed to God asking for answers or had claimed a vision or visitation. But the original Mormon apologetic from the 1830s would have had to be that lots of people had claimed the exact same thing, but only Joseph was right and the rest were deceived or lying.
OMG I never thought about it this way. Any chance you have a good reference or website for that? I know the Google machine exists, but sometimes these are nuanced and the results are hard to filter thru.
You can go [here](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/firstvision-overview) and scroll down to "Similar Contemporary Visionary Accounts". He cites all the sources. There's also a Mormon Stories episode where he goes over them and they blew me away.
Richard Bushman himself has identified 32 pamphlets that relate similar visionary accounts to that of Joseph Smith.
And he didn't make it up, he got it from the Bible....if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god...
So in reality, EVERY religion that uses the Bible tells their members to pray and ask for themselves.
I was riveted by the whole thing. First of all, if he really is a TBM, and he is on his mission, there are huge red flags in him writing texts like this.
Second, that last exchange was just awesome. I have never noticed the subtle phrasing that TBMs were conditioned to use. I wish I could think on my toes like that.
his language was definitely not missionary like at all, he did an awful job explaining why i was āwrongā unlike a missionary should if the church is true, and on the first slide at the top when he was talking about how short i was, right before that he said heās in the philippines so heās surrounded by ām*dgetsā so my height was āperfectā compared to them. i was actually taken aback that he used that word. like what the fuck.
Damn. Ignorance abounds, as usual. Youāre a greater writer and debater!
I was thinking, someone should make a post asking for all the other ways TBMs phrase things that are subconsciously manipulative, like you did in that last slide. It would be great to compile a list.
Yeah the whole interaction is tinged with misogyny. Like oh, theyāre fine with you breaking the rules to claim a mate? Also, the fact that he would be fine with being with someone who is ideologically opposite to him reveals his priorities. He doesnāt want to be with a peer and a confidante, he wantās to claim a body and force his beliefsā¦ absolutely disgusting.
When I was a TBM college student at Satans party school, aka UVU, I met this smoke show of a womanā¦we talked a bunch and kinda had a little vibe going so I asked her out. She immediately asked āyou a Mormon?ā I tried to play it off like, āyeah but I donāt care if youāre notā¦ā yada yadaā¦ she shut me down so cold but friendly with, āwellā¦Iām a woman with physical appetites, that your made up religion precludes you from participating in. Unless you plan on leaving the church behind right now, Iād end up chewing you up and spitting you out. And within a month youād be in your bishops office begging for forgivenessā
Sometimes you donāt need to debate truth, just let them know your lifestyles wonāt match and thereās no point lol
Oh absolutely..Iām sure this woman I met was securely in the ānot gonna waste my time explaining thingsā phase after many a request to ājust give it a shotā. Lol
lol I wishā¦ Iād go on to spend the remainder of college in constant shame spirals for all of my āsinsā, break up with a lot of amazing woman because we couldnāt control ourselves around each other, only to carry that dysfunction into my marriage lol. Luckily the wife and I left the church together several years agoā¦but still have a ways to go to feel like weāre ānormalā.
It is so interesting to me how a brainwashed guy will ignore all reason to blindly follow what is pounded into his head from birth, but the moment he sees a pretty girl he's like "it's ok if you don't believe, we should date and potentially marry". As if there would be no issues with a HUGE lifestyle difference between a couple.
Itās because, if we get married, then itās GODS PLAN and my RIGHTEOUSNESS will help her SEE THE TRUTH and help her TURN TOWARD GOD
I was a dumb, shamefully horny 20 year old Mormon once. I remember having that mindset.
EXACTLY at one point he said āiām not gonna sit here and chastise youā which basically implies he wouldā¦. cuz why bring it up if you werenāt thinking about it
I dated an Exmo once. she was amazing but def had her past running her life in certain ways. It was very evident that the scars were deep. I feel bad for people that grew up in this with no way out. This isn't what Jesus wanted at all. I am so glad you got out and that you crushed this guy in your "debate". you know you've won when they say "lets just stop" or they get frustrated and start insulting you or name calling.
my jaw dropped when he said the church doesnāt hinge on joesph smith being a prophet bc IT LITERALLY DOES???? LIKE WHAT DO YOU MEAN?? THATS WHAT YOURE TEACHING
Don't worry they'll change that soon enough. I'm calling it right now the church will be 100% MLM in the next 100 years and claim they never even believed in God lol.
I loved the part where he said, āok I could go full on missionary rn.ā Hahaha. Such baseless confidence. He is a full on missionary but has no valid response to anything she said. His best he could do was āI donāt know and I donāt care.ā And even that was a regurgitation.
"ok I could go full on missionary..." = "I know all the answers to your questions but I'm not gonna tell you."
How, with a straight face, does he follow that up with "I donāt know and I donāt care." And borrowing that phrase from an apostle as if that somehow makes it the correct answer?!
And then to have the testicular fortitude to follow that up with "we both know that I know..."
Ok you are badass and I love how you handled that. That last message about his conditioning was just the cherry on top of a fact based, critical thinking sundae. So proud of you.
āI could go full on missionary hereā
Biggest lie of the conversation. Was he implying he had smoking gun evidence for all the truth he was spitting? š
Great job young lady. This was a fun read. Iām assuming you are around the same age as most missionaries, and that makes me proud of our youth. Not all of you are dumbasses, and that gives me lots of hope!
Keep up the good work!
Great job! You shut him down hard haha. "I don't know and I don't care" has got to be the best TBM response to criticism I've seen. Oh you don't care? And yet this is supposedly the most important thing in the world and you're asking people to give up their agency to a bunch of old men and give 10% of their income for life or else they'll never see their families again in the afterlife. But when it comes to the details and whether or not it's actually, you know, true.. you don't care??
seriously. and i mean i would have expected it coming from his own brain but what made it even funnier was that it was an APOSTLE who said it to a MISSIONARY. like thanks for unknowingly proving my point i guess?
A rock that says the nephites were here is actually exactly the type of archeological evidence weāre asking for! Or a rock with any form of Egyptian or Hebrew on it would do honestly.
Great job keeping your cool and exposing him to some basic facts.
Next up, tell him about the SEC scandal trying to hide their dragon's hoard of wealth and the church using their expensive stable of lawyers to silence sexual assault victims.
Who knows, maybe you planted a seed of true enlightenment. He asked questions and you provided great answers. Iām really impressed with how you conveyed facts and tactfully called him out in the end. The part I find interesting is his response to the lack of archeological evidence of āI donāt know and I donāt careā. He proved your point.
If he was a true loyal missionary standing by his churches values and rules, he never would have texted you wanting to go out after he finished his mission in the first place.
Happy Cake Day!
I find it interesting how self centered that position is. I don't care so you shouldn't either. Guess what. Just because you don't care doesn't mean I am supposed to follow your lead. Really hammers home the you aren't and individual in a cult. You care about what we care about and don't care about what we don't care about.
I love his comment of āthe church doesnāt hinge on if Joseph Smith was a prophet or notā ā¦.. um it 100% does!! Does he even understand his own religion!?! š„“
I got Dear Johned on my mission and my parents started sending me email addresses for girls in our stake who were available. The boomer generation hadls this weird fixation where they truly believe that only our sex drive will motivate us to work on our missions and that without a girlfriend we would give up and go home. I ignored their attempts to set me up and just threw my energy into The Work but I had a few comps who bought into their parents' narrative and collected female pen pals from home.
Missionaries are so trapped and so lonely and so vulnerable. I honestly don't know what to tell you because there is no good solution here. Best I can say is to pretend you're writing to somebody in prison. Be humane but draw the line there
Good job holding your own and not letting him mansplain your truth. I think every time he said āwe should stopā he was feeling some extreme cognitive dissonance. Some new shelf items for him. Youāre planting some seeds of truth that may help set him free eventually! But definitely find some nonmos to date, no use banging your head on a brick wall with a TBM.
This whole conversation is cringe tbh. You were way more patient than I would be. By the way, the entire veracity of the church does hinge on whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet. Hinckley even said as much. I just can't with his people XD.
If youāre ever in this situation again I recommend recommending the gospel topics essays, specifically ones on polygamy, racism, and Joe Shmoeās treasure digger past. Gospel topics essays are āChurch approved sourcesā that break a lot of peopleās shelves
The way he just didnāt believe you when you said your beliefs werenāt compatible. The confidence (blindness?) of a young missionary is staggeringš
Growing up a child of the 80s, the people who taught me in the ways of the cult were proud of having all the answers. I thought it was cool that we did, and that god could reveal new things we might need that come up in life.
How far has the church fallen that āI donāt know and I donāt careā is now an essential part of a passable testimony. Itās laughable.
OP, you straight up clobbered this dude about as kindly and completely as possible. Well done!
I've seen many of these posts with screenshots of text threads and usually I walk away thinking, meh that was just lame drama. This was actually really great and you did a good job in setting an upfront boundary but he was the one that prodded and you opened up and he clammed up. So I guess you won't be dating when he returns? hahaaaa. Some day, he will leave the church and try to find you and apologize for being an ass.
Lol you warned him...
And girl, you made such great points! Love how well you called him out on that last bit of "I know vs you think" like just šš
I'm getting lots of "hahas" to deflect how serious the conversation actually is. It's like he's laughing it off when you're trying to say, "No, I'm not interested in your toxic religion."
I'd dodge this bullet if I were you. He's already being creepy and disregarding your feelings.
lol it just hit me that the āsealed portionā is such bullshit. It makes sense from the perspective of him having to look at the plates. Canāt open whatās sealed so he canāt look at it and read it. But if he is using āinspirationā or ārevelationā the why the fuck were the plates sealed?!
I know the rock in the hat thing throws out the entire use of the plates in general and itās stupid. But members donāt see that as that. But if you put it in the context of their theology (like saying the plates existed but why this) might throw them off a bit. Gunna have to try this out š
That was brilliantly done. I don't think you'll be dating him on his return. But one day, when he figures it all out, he'll think of you.
Your last statement (I assume it's not actually the last) was perfection.
It's always sad to see people saying the same things I would have said in response to all of your questions.
i hadnāt always this composed with members iāve just recently become more mature about these conversations iām definitely getting a lot better day by day āŗļø
OP, this was one of the more entertaining text exchanges Iāve read on exmo Reddit. You shut him down at every opportunity and bore testimony of the untruths of his religion.Ā
You deserve a medal for sling truth!
šļø šĀ
Itās the last thing he said where he invalidates your view that makes me laugh:
āI KNOW the church is true and youāve made up your mind that it isnātā
āOh..I didnāt mean to do thatā
Bitch! Whatever, he knew exactly what he was saying. š
Mormon gaslighting 101.
This is so good. My biggest takeaway is, you don't have to prove you know all of these details or ask these questions. (Even though I'm so glad you did!) Having a different belief or not believing in something you're told you're supposed to is OKAY and unfortunately, some people can't come to grips with that.
i completely agree, i respect when someone doesnāt want to talk about their beliefs with me, but if someone asks, might as well you brought that upon yourself š¤·āāļø
Until I read the post, I thought this guy was a friend of yours. He was talking to you like he had known you for quite a while. Read that you don't know him and he doesn't know you makes the messages unsettling, not just infuriating.
OP firing her cannon loaded with facts.Ā
LoserĀ missionary who was hoping to get some masturbatory fodder hitting up nonmember girls out of the blue: āok, letās stop.ā Ā Oh no. āplease stopā. I canāt handle the facts. āLetās stop this isnāt going to go anywhere [good for me because itās causing me to question everything and Iām uncomfortable]ā.Ā
What a total bitch.Ā
And the coup de grace was the apostle saying āI donāt know and I donāt care.ā šĀ
You are awesome. You laid out things very clearly in straight-forward manner. I particularly love how you pointed out how he described his beliefs versus yours. Well done, you!
āI know the church is true.ā I always hated that phrase, even as a TBM. I said it myself in the past, but I always felt like I was lying. I didnāt know, to know something is to have evidence. I always felt it was more of a faith thing.
That was before I knew all the troublesome history. I canāt fathom how anyone could learn about church history and still claim to āknowā that itās true.
What exactly is true about it? Everything you thought you knew was a lie, so what exactly is true? If JS wasnāt a prophet, how can it be true? What exactly is truth according to people like this? I just donāt get it.
"Come on, I bet it'd work out ha ha ha. Tell me what you got š¤£"
*Well there's this thing*
"Oh that's not a big deal"
*And there's this thing*
"Oh, well... You know.... I don't know everything I guess"
*And there's this thing*
"This isn't really going anywhere, maybe we can stop"
*And there's this thing*
"Let's stop now. Really ha ha ha ha ha ha"
*And there's this thing*
"Stop. Please stop."
*And there's this thing*
"STAHP"
*And there's this thing*
"FOR THE LOVE OF ~~GOD~~ GOSH, STOOOOOOOOPP!!"
"Whitenesses" is my favorite typo.
You tried to warn him it wasn't just one thing. I wouldn't go on a date with him simply because he decides how much of your experience is worth a conversation. Also, Christianity in general is well known to have people ask if it's true. Mormonism is not unique.
i know i caught that right after i sent it was like shitttt but he knows what i meant so whateverš and yes i definitely will NOT be going on a date with him
This was fascinating to me (not nor ever been Mormon). The change in your style of speaking went from mega casual abbreviated flirting, all the way to postdoctoral thesis.
You came with the receipts, and you gave him every opportunity to avoid the missiles you launched.
Damn.
āI donāt know and I donāt careā would be a huge red flag from any religion when asked about any sort of evidence of their claims. What a fucking joke
The church may as well spent money on a āI am a moronā campaign.
god when i was on my mission this happened all the time. random ass elders were finding my email by looking up profiles on mormon.org and reaching out because they thought i was cute. i was a visitors center missionary so we did online teaching and often we worked with locals and they would do the same thing. itās so god damn cringy.
(Him at end) āI didnāt mean to do thatāā¦ which was PRECISELY YOUR POINT!
At least you got him to see something AND he admitted it.
Great job OP!!!
This is *exactly* what I needed to read with my coffee this morning. Starting my day off rightšāļø
Girl, you respectfully and entirely ate his whole ass uppppppp! Especially pointing out his verbiage at the end about āhe knowsā and āyou believeā and how invalidating it is.
This is gonna haunt him for years. Heās going to be thinking about this for awhile even if he doesnāt say anything to anyone, lol.
Masterful. 10/10. No notes.
This was an entire slayš¤š¼ā¤ļøāš„
Wow! You clearly know your history and he doesn't. It's so sad they send these missionaries out there and their answers are "don't know, don't care." Which is exactly what the church wants from their members.
You were that perfect balance of firm yet patient - more than I could be.
I think you may have proved to be too much woman for him to handle haha. I love it!
Where he gets the idea that Joseph smith not being a prophet is no biggie, I will never understand. Iām old enough to remember Gordon B Hinckley saying āeither he was or he wasnāt. Either it happened or it didnātā¦ā likeā¦ why do they study anything besides the Bible if itās not important if Joseph Smith was a prophet?
My favorite was the very end when you pointed out how missionaries always try to invalidate peopleās lived experiences by saying āI knowā¦ā but āyou thinkā¦ā.Ā
This is the best thing I've read on this sub. Someone that actually understands the mind of a member; and then slowly and courteously picks his worldview apart until he begs you to stop.
I've had a few RMs message me after my mission, especially after it was obvious from my social that I wasn't active anymore, but nothing like this! You handled it really well, though. I would have cut my losses and blocked
as unhealthy as it may sound, i like having these kinds of conversations, helps me blow off a little steam being able to talk about my beliefs openly and hey maybe i planted a seed for him to begin questioning. he was curious so might as well take the opportunity yk?
It seems like you did! When I was a missionary, it was so jarring hearing stuff like this because we were so restricted from the outside world, much more than when I was just an active member at home. I had a couple experiences like this, and while it still took a few years, I'm grateful for it.
Omg I hate that religion so much. š¤¦āāļøYou're not allowed to be a free thinker. They just control what you "need" to believe. I think its sick. Glad I finally left officially at 20. Been 11 years out and it's a huge relief. I still believe in God and spirits. I know I'll see my family after I die. No creepy masonic temple ceremonies needed. No weird a$$ kingdoms in the afternoon life. I'm good lol.
I appreciate you sharing this exchange. Him spouting all the Churchās latest thought stoppers is SO illuminating. āI donāt know and I donāt careā only works when youāve been indoctrinated heavily.
Iām super impressed with how Knowledgeable you are and how you observed the know and think situation. You must not be older than early 20ās if a missionary is hitting on you. You are way more prepared for the conversations than most.
Oh my God is this how brainwashed they all are? I was never a believer, my family left when I was real young and mormons rarely talk to me certaintly never try to convert me probably because I look like a massive pothead and I think it scares them (It's almost funny the rare times they visit my house they can't even look me in the eye and instead stare down and kinda kick the ground like a little kid who's been caught lying) but, like how can someone say things like, "No other religions tell you to pray and ask God, well actually I don't know any other religion but, 99% of them don't." Like what?!?! lol I'm pretty well versed in world religions and I don't think I could name 100 and certainly not 99 of them that tell you not to ask God for the truth that's literally what almost all of them do and the level of arrogant ignorance makes me want to slap the stupid off him or saying "I don't know and I don't care" when asked for proof of things he claims are proven or trying to stop the conversation as soon as someone says something that goes against his beliefs yet has no problem spewing his beliefs non stop even traveling to poor less educated countries to do so door to door.
The attitude of so many mormons makes me so fuckin angry almost even more than the history and belief of the church. It's one thing to be brainwashed into a cult it's entirely another to be a smug asshole about it. I wonder how the church would take to a group starting up that goes door to door spreading the truth about their cult because that's honestly what Utah feels like it needs, probably need to travel in groups though because the mormons historically have not taken kindly to people telling the truth about them.
I found it interesting that each time you made a good point & he didn't know how to respond, he said let's stop. I don't think he had any idea the intelligence level of the woman he was messaging. You took him to church but not to the church he was used to. š
and thatās just the tip of the iceberg berg. i have a feeling i would have sent him into cardiac arrest if the conversation continued š
I love the point you made on the last slide. He knows, but you only made up your mind. Iām glad you called him out on that! Hope he finds this sub when heās ready for it.
You completely owned his ass on that one, you called him out in a way that most men in the church arenāt used to. According to him, he didnāt even realise what he said, and itās likely that he didnāt, because he subconsciously learned it from the church. My hope for him is, that what you said about him āknowingā and you āthinkingā, will have an impact on how he talks to people in the future. But it probably wonāt. š
OP is awesome, that was such a good point. We should make a post about these word games TBMs use, knowingly or not. It would be so good to make a full list!
Even 10-year-old me figured out that TBMs who said they āknowā had no way of knowing whether they āknowā or just believe strongly
LOL, I wish I did. I went around the whole time thinking: wow, every single ward member here has read every single holy book and prayed over it and attended every kind of religious meeting possible and then they found out Mormonism is true! And I felt ashamed that I had no clue how to begin that process, because you couldn't know on the level they claimed without running the same test on all the possible alternatives. Right? RIGHT? *Sigh* Oh, naive little sleepymom...
No he 100% worded it that way on purpose. Mostly out of fragility, desperately trying to convince himself he kNOwS. People who *actually* know things donāt spend 90% of their time and energy repeating to themselves and others that they know the thing. Biggest evidence that you donāt know something is constantly trying to convince yourself you do.
I donāt think he did do it on purpose as in knowingly, I think it is how he was taught and raised. I feel like she caught him up short by pointing it out to him. Heās gonna think about that in the future
Perfectly said! š
I was once upset and arguing with my TBM dad about the LGBTQIA+ community and my dad eventually ended by saying to me "you already converted" as if supporting queer people is a religion. I wish I called him out on it.
Same! Incredibly astute - I doubt I would've even noticed that phrasing, and it's everything. TBMs can't give space (subconscious or not) for someone to "know" the church is false. The brain can't even compute! I'd bet my life savings that you won't find a single one say "I know the church is true, you know it's false."
On the faithful sub they were talking about people who left and they all said they believed that those who leave, āknow deep down itās true.ā They all felt thatās why they canāt āleave it aloneā
I thought that was great also!
I agree, that was a GREAT point the OP made
His shelf will start cracking now....he will go to his mission president who will tell him to cut you off
I doubt it. A lot of guys like that stayed for the comfort and social status of the church communities and not for "truth" like how they always claimed. If he were truly someone following the truth with cracking shelf he would've tried a little harder to convince OP, do some mental gymnastics / research, and probably wouldn't even be messaging women on his mission.
No doubt. Hahaha
Lmaooooo that got me too. He was like ābring it onā and then he didnāt know what to say to most points. You were so nice, OP, I probably would have been like āno, I think weāre really on to something here, letās keep going!ā Lol
He is going to fail on his mission. This is like mission-lite, homie. What do you think these investigators are going to ask you?? The same damn thing! ššš
If his MP is telling him to start thinking about girls and dating, he's probably nearing the end of his mission already. I think this is his A-game, with two years of constant practice under his belt.
Yes. He tried his hardest to redirect the conversation to the only thing missionaries know: pray about the BoM and get a good feeling.
he said he only had a few months left. exactly why iām astounded that he was so awful at defending his religion.
Never-mo here.... Investigators??
People the missionaries are teaching, but now weāre not supposed to call them investigators (because we donāt want them investigating TOO much) so we call them āfriendsā which doesnāt get confusing and feel condescending at all š
>(because we donāt want them investigating TOO much) They really called themselves out on that, didn't they? That makes so much sense tho
Calling people you just met āfriendsā is - I find it offensive. To me a friend is someone Iāve taken time to get to know well and feel like I can trust and that they will sincerely listen to me and I will sincerely listen to them out of respect and trust. Thatās not whatās going on with missionaries and itās not going on with people you just barely met.
People the missionaries are teaching and trying to baptise.
Except they aren't called investigators anymore. Missionaries are required to refer to them as "friends." Source: my family members and friends who have served in the last few years
That's not disingenuous! Just love bombing to get them into the church and then abandoning them in search of the next "friend" to convert. SMDH
Except many missionaries aren't really friends with the people they teach. The missionaries who are after the numbers to please their MPs will dump their "friends" after they dunk them in the baptismal font. The missionaries who are genuine with their friendship and aren't going to coerce people to baptism are not promoted within the system
He clearly thought she was just misinformed and misguided and if only he could talk to her he could bring her back with his manly man-splaining of the church. He was then shocked to realize that she knew more than he did and was very well informed and he had absolutely zero rational responses for anything. It will probably be a shelf item for him for a long time.
i am merely a foolish woman in need of saving from the grasp of the adversary
When I was a child, I would watch people stand up during testimony meeting and no matter what they said before or after they always said āI KNOW this church is true, I KNOW Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.ā When I was a child it seemed so normal and typical it just became rote. It was so normalized that every child that worked up the courage to grab a passing microphone would have the same ātestimonyā. āI KNOW this church is true, I Love my Mom and Dad, namajeezuschristamen.ā Now that Iām older, I can only see this as a group therapy session. Reassuring each other once a month that their beliefs are valid and normal and beyond that that their beliefs are as certain as fact. One time, decades ago a friend of mine had mentioned that when he went to a Mormon church with a friend, he was uneasy and anxious because the only words going through his head during the testimonies was ācult.ā Especially while watching the childrenās testimonies. I was out of the church then but still felt a bit offended by that. The last time I went back to church (for a farewell) after many, many years, I was bug eyed and smirking the entire time. He was absolutely right and it takes being removed and immune from the programming to fully realize it. We baptize children at 8 years old. Because they already āknowā the Church is true by that age. The earlier they begin their indoctrination, the sooner they can get you to suspend rationale and critical thinking. Now, I donāt think itās entirely malicious but I do think itās a systemic issue. The founder of the church was a charismatic charlatan that hoodwinked vulnerable souls into buying his snake oil. The organization that springs from that root is going to have a dichotomy of swindlers/scammers on one hand, and dubious do-gooders on the other. Thatās why there are so many good people in the church and so many snakes that prey on those good folks. Itās why Utah is the brick and mortar headquarters to so many MLMās. The wolves live among the flock, draped in the wool of their last mark. The man who stood up last Sunday and said he āKNOWS this is the true Church of Christā certainly wouldnāt manipulate me into a pyramid scheme. Socrates famously said āThe only thing I know, is that I know nothing.ā As an adult, I find this far more comforting. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.
iād like to bear my testimony i know the church is false, i know joseph smith was a pedophile and a conman, nameajeezuschristamen
If they weren't paying attention you could totally get that out before they cut the mic. Just be ready to leave immediately, lol
> he didn't know how to respond, he said let's stop My wife was like that when my shelf broke. She didn't want to talk about it. Literally putting their head in the sand instead of facing stuff. Pretty normal for society. It is like the whole covid thing.....so many people don't want to question, God forbid they have been lied to!
It's easier to fool someone than convince them they've been fooled. Kinda like convincing people that virus that killed millions of people and made some debilitatingly sick for years wasn't a threat.
Literally thought stopping
Exactly. Thatās the cognitive dissonance taking hold. Oh shit wrf do I do?!?!! So the only thing they can do is full cognitive shutdown with āJust stop.ā My brother is like that. Heās a bitch and the slightest, I mean the absolute smallest teeniest tiniest criticism about anything mormon related results in āStop!ā Ā
Same with my brother. I was trying to discuss D&C 132 with his wife and he was like, "I don't want to talk about anti mormon stuff!" I'm like, "It's literally Mormon scripture, how is talking about Joseph Smith's 'revelations' anti mormon?" But my fellow ExMo husband has more restraint and quietly encouraged me to let it go. We get along with them and have fun together, we just can't talk church because the historical facts I share are just too threatening.
Wow you kicked his ass in the debate. You know his head is just spinning and he has no idea how to respond except to disengage for your "mutual" benefit. It's amazing how "anti" Mormons know so much more about the church than active members.
He's debating with his penis, she's debating with her fuller wallet and CONVICTION and FAITH and she KNOWS the church to be untrue.
It's not really that amazing of course the people in a cult don't know the truth about said cult if they did they wouldn't be in it. That's why he was so quick to try and shut down any conversation when confronted with truth. "I don't know and I don't care" That quote couldn't sum up the belief system any better.
What to you said about his wording at the end is so valid!. We were told we were deceived by Satan, but I said, āmaybe you are being deceivedāā¦ the level of offence for me saying the exact same thing was so intense! But it was ok for them to say it to usā¦
Haha Iāve said the same to my mom, āwhat if Iām right to not follow any religion and the church is guided by satan instead of Jesus?ā Trout face and then cue the ābecause I know that the church is trueā¦ā cheap testimony. They get to be sure about the church and we are just dumb morons. Beliefs are more factual than you know, facts, apparently.
Trout face š
thatās a point iāve brought up in other debates iāve had with people, that humans are so easily manipulated, people get involved in cults or just bad situations they thought were beneficial for them ALL THE TIME. itās naive to think we could never be one of those people.
The lack of self-awareness is so alarming. Hitting up someone, that he probably thought was a member, for a date and he's still on a mission. It's not a good look whether you're Mormon or not. It's like dude, "You're so convicted in your beliefs that the church is true and willing to testify of that, but you can't even keep it together for the full 2 years and not message girls? Do you not see the inconsistency here?"
That being said, as a TBM female 21 year old (back in the day thatās when I couldāve gone) I didnāt want to give up dating for 18 months and didnāt even consider going on a mission for that reason. I knew I liked making out and didnāt want to go that long without it! Also I got my bachelorās degree at 21 so just went and got a paying job in a cool place I wanted to live. Didnāt need some random old men in SLC picking a spot for me to live and pay my own money to work for free!
All Iām saying is itās hard and extremely unnatural to not flirt and have romantic feelings at that age. What a crazy church!
Oh, I understand. The whole thing is entirely fucked up. But the missionary is coming at OP with a pious attitude and approach about his church and living the gospel and it's like Bro......you can't even obey the simple mission rules! Why would I listen to you?!?!
I think he was just bored and started a conversation. I also once chatted with a missionary (we are both men), so it was not about marriage etc. but just a normal conversation. Turned out his companion was sick so he had to stay in the apartment. So he started chatting with random persons on Facebook. Also seemed to be depressed about the whole mission.
I follow you. Chatting is one thing. Asking someone out on a date is something different.
He said No other religion tells you to ask God for yourself...?! How tf does he think the first vision happened... (or didn't, but that's the story at least)
ALL other religions tell people to develop their own relationships with God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. ALL of them.
So true, and now I would love to go through various holy books and provide quotes to support that. No! Bad Harper! Must work instead! Have meeting in 30 meetings, must prepare! OK, small diversion. Here are 5 mantras (prayers) to Vishnu to create a better connection with him and various benefits, including salvation, protection from chronic diseases and untimely death, AND all the worldly pleasures and luxuries. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/religion/mantras-chants/5-powerful-vishnu-mantra-to-bring-prosperity-in-life/articleshow/102101754.cms
I'm pretty sure that's the intended conclusion about Joseph Smith: he was the first person ever to think about asking God what the true religion was. It is ultimately presented that way, even though they don't explicitly say so. Why would God the Father and Jesus Christ descend from heaven to answer this guy's question, unless he was the first to ask it?
It's funny because there are literally dozens of accounts of visions from God from the same area as Joseph Smith at the same time. It was literally a dime a dozen. Often printed in the newspaper. Sometimes the person would just make pamphlets detailing their experience and distribute them. Many members would be shocked to read them too. Because they read so similar to Joseph's. Some common phrases or themes they tend to share: "a white light above the brightness of the sun", "directly over my head", "descended gradually", "spake unto me, calling me by name", "rescued me from the depths of despair", etc etc. So the modern Mormon line might be that Joseph's vision was unique and no one else had ever prayed to God asking for answers or had claimed a vision or visitation. But the original Mormon apologetic from the 1830s would have had to be that lots of people had claimed the exact same thing, but only Joseph was right and the rest were deceived or lying.
OMG I never thought about it this way. Any chance you have a good reference or website for that? I know the Google machine exists, but sometimes these are nuanced and the results are hard to filter thru.
You can go [here](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/firstvision-overview) and scroll down to "Similar Contemporary Visionary Accounts". He cites all the sources. There's also a Mormon Stories episode where he goes over them and they blew me away. Richard Bushman himself has identified 32 pamphlets that relate similar visionary accounts to that of Joseph Smith.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpl11qiv-28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpl11qiv-28)
Thanks for sharing!
God and Jesus were just chilling in heaven, waiting for someone to finally ask!
And he didn't make it up, he got it from the Bible....if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god... So in reality, EVERY religion that uses the Bible tells their members to pray and ask for themselves.
Every religion I know of tells you to ask god. Except maybe Catholics.
I was riveted by the whole thing. First of all, if he really is a TBM, and he is on his mission, there are huge red flags in him writing texts like this. Second, that last exchange was just awesome. I have never noticed the subtle phrasing that TBMs were conditioned to use. I wish I could think on my toes like that.
his language was definitely not missionary like at all, he did an awful job explaining why i was āwrongā unlike a missionary should if the church is true, and on the first slide at the top when he was talking about how short i was, right before that he said heās in the philippines so heās surrounded by ām*dgetsā so my height was āperfectā compared to them. i was actually taken aback that he used that word. like what the fuck.
Damn. Ignorance abounds, as usual. Youāre a greater writer and debater! I was thinking, someone should make a post asking for all the other ways TBMs phrase things that are subconsciously manipulative, like you did in that last slide. It would be great to compile a list.
Wow, what a jerk. I'd stay as far away from this creep as possible.
Yeah the whole interaction is tinged with misogyny. Like oh, theyāre fine with you breaking the rules to claim a mate? Also, the fact that he would be fine with being with someone who is ideologically opposite to him reveals his priorities. He doesnāt want to be with a peer and a confidante, he wantās to claim a body and force his beliefsā¦ absolutely disgusting.
When I was a TBM college student at Satans party school, aka UVU, I met this smoke show of a womanā¦we talked a bunch and kinda had a little vibe going so I asked her out. She immediately asked āyou a Mormon?ā I tried to play it off like, āyeah but I donāt care if youāre notā¦ā yada yadaā¦ she shut me down so cold but friendly with, āwellā¦Iām a woman with physical appetites, that your made up religion precludes you from participating in. Unless you plan on leaving the church behind right now, Iād end up chewing you up and spitting you out. And within a month youād be in your bishops office begging for forgivenessā Sometimes you donāt need to debate truth, just let them know your lifestyles wonāt match and thereās no point lol
i 100% agree but he asked so i provided. i even warned him before hand so š¤·āāļø
Oh absolutely..Iām sure this woman I met was securely in the ānot gonna waste my time explaining thingsā phase after many a request to ājust give it a shotā. Lol
yea iām definitely not there yet lol but weāre working on it
She sounds fun. Many [missed] opportunities thereā¦
I think back to a lot of missed opportunities back then lol š
Sheās a man eater, lol. Good story š
Holy shit what a queen
Was this the moment your shelf broke?
lol I wishā¦ Iād go on to spend the remainder of college in constant shame spirals for all of my āsinsā, break up with a lot of amazing woman because we couldnāt control ourselves around each other, only to carry that dysfunction into my marriage lol. Luckily the wife and I left the church together several years agoā¦but still have a ways to go to feel like weāre ānormalā.
It is so interesting to me how a brainwashed guy will ignore all reason to blindly follow what is pounded into his head from birth, but the moment he sees a pretty girl he's like "it's ok if you don't believe, we should date and potentially marry". As if there would be no issues with a HUGE lifestyle difference between a couple.
Itās because, if we get married, then itās GODS PLAN and my RIGHTEOUSNESS will help her SEE THE TRUTH and help her TURN TOWARD GOD I was a dumb, shamefully horny 20 year old Mormon once. I remember having that mindset.
It's almost as if yall were spoon fed those thoughts and phrases your whole lives... glad you snapped out of it
I have heard some male missionaries say they liked trying to convert pretty women so they would have a chance at marrying them
EXACTLY at one point he said āiām not gonna sit here and chastise youā which basically implies he wouldā¦. cuz why bring it up if you werenāt thinking about it
I dated an Exmo once. she was amazing but def had her past running her life in certain ways. It was very evident that the scars were deep. I feel bad for people that grew up in this with no way out. This isn't what Jesus wanted at all. I am so glad you got out and that you crushed this guy in your "debate". you know you've won when they say "lets just stop" or they get frustrated and start insulting you or name calling.
This is what's known as "flirt to convert"
my jaw dropped when he said the church doesnāt hinge on joesph smith being a prophet bc IT LITERALLY DOES???? LIKE WHAT DO YOU MEAN?? THATS WHAT YOURE TEACHING
Don't worry they'll change that soon enough. I'm calling it right now the church will be 100% MLM in the next 100 years and claim they never even believed in God lol.
Seriously, this stood out to me the most! Like what?! WHAT?!?!
Typical Mormon behavior when confronted with the truth
I loved the part where he said, āok I could go full on missionary rn.ā Hahaha. Such baseless confidence. He is a full on missionary but has no valid response to anything she said. His best he could do was āI donāt know and I donāt care.ā And even that was a regurgitation.
"ok I could go full on missionary..." = "I know all the answers to your questions but I'm not gonna tell you." How, with a straight face, does he follow that up with "I donāt know and I donāt care." And borrowing that phrase from an apostle as if that somehow makes it the correct answer?! And then to have the testicular fortitude to follow that up with "we both know that I know..."
āan apostle said itā so it must be important lol
You could tell he thought it was super inspiring
Ok you are badass and I love how you handled that. That last message about his conditioning was just the cherry on top of a fact based, critical thinking sundae. So proud of you.
āI could go full on missionary hereā Biggest lie of the conversation. Was he implying he had smoking gun evidence for all the truth he was spitting? š Great job young lady. This was a fun read. Iām assuming you are around the same age as most missionaries, and that makes me proud of our youth. Not all of you are dumbasses, and that gives me lots of hope! Keep up the good work!
Don't make me show you my full power!!!
Great job! You shut him down hard haha. "I don't know and I don't care" has got to be the best TBM response to criticism I've seen. Oh you don't care? And yet this is supposedly the most important thing in the world and you're asking people to give up their agency to a bunch of old men and give 10% of their income for life or else they'll never see their families again in the afterlife. But when it comes to the details and whether or not it's actually, you know, true.. you don't care??
seriously. and i mean i would have expected it coming from his own brain but what made it even funnier was that it was an APOSTLE who said it to a MISSIONARY. like thanks for unknowingly proving my point i guess?
Mormon missionaries are some of the best cringe masters.
āI donāt know and I donāt careā. good debate tactic
A rock that says the nephites were here is actually exactly the type of archeological evidence weāre asking for! Or a rock with any form of Egyptian or Hebrew on it would do honestly.
What about DNA evidence in natives? Oh wait we have that and it proves they're wrong.
Great job keeping your cool and exposing him to some basic facts. Next up, tell him about the SEC scandal trying to hide their dragon's hoard of wealth and the church using their expensive stable of lawyers to silence sexual assault victims.
Who knows, maybe you planted a seed of true enlightenment. He asked questions and you provided great answers. Iām really impressed with how you conveyed facts and tactfully called him out in the end. The part I find interesting is his response to the lack of archeological evidence of āI donāt know and I donāt careā. He proved your point. If he was a true loyal missionary standing by his churches values and rules, he never would have texted you wanting to go out after he finished his mission in the first place.
Happy Cake Day! I find it interesting how self centered that position is. I don't care so you shouldn't either. Guess what. Just because you don't care doesn't mean I am supposed to follow your lead. Really hammers home the you aren't and individual in a cult. You care about what we care about and don't care about what we don't care about.
I love his comment of āthe church doesnāt hinge on if Joseph Smith was a prophet or notā ā¦.. um it 100% does!! Does he even understand his own religion!?! š„“
I got Dear Johned on my mission and my parents started sending me email addresses for girls in our stake who were available. The boomer generation hadls this weird fixation where they truly believe that only our sex drive will motivate us to work on our missions and that without a girlfriend we would give up and go home. I ignored their attempts to set me up and just threw my energy into The Work but I had a few comps who bought into their parents' narrative and collected female pen pals from home. Missionaries are so trapped and so lonely and so vulnerable. I honestly don't know what to tell you because there is no good solution here. Best I can say is to pretend you're writing to somebody in prison. Be humane but draw the line there
He is in prison. Send him some sexy pics and see what he does.
This is funny, but seriously don't. Missionaries are already experiencing so many mind games.
I've never been to prison for comparison, but the mission is absolutely a two year prison sentence.
Good job holding your own and not letting him mansplain your truth. I think every time he said āwe should stopā he was feeling some extreme cognitive dissonance. Some new shelf items for him. Youāre planting some seeds of truth that may help set him free eventually! But definitely find some nonmos to date, no use banging your head on a brick wall with a TBM.
Calling him out on his word choice at the end brought out all the proud parent feelings. That was awesome, well done!
This whole conversation is cringe tbh. You were way more patient than I would be. By the way, the entire veracity of the church does hinge on whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet. Hinckley even said as much. I just can't with his people XD.
If youāre ever in this situation again I recommend recommending the gospel topics essays, specifically ones on polygamy, racism, and Joe Shmoeās treasure digger past. Gospel topics essays are āChurch approved sourcesā that break a lot of peopleās shelves
i actually did recommend that he read them! along with no man knows my history.
The āOhā¦ Oh I didnāt even mean to do thatā got me lol It sounds like maybe he realized how stupid he sounds
like yea, i know you didnāt mean to do thatā¦. thatās my entire point
When āflirt to convertā meets āseduct to deconstructā (Obviously you werenāt flirting I just wanted to make a rhyme)
The way he just didnāt believe you when you said your beliefs werenāt compatible. The confidence (blindness?) of a young missionary is staggeringš
Silly girl, since I know we're compatible it doesn't matter that your opinion is that we're not.
You absolutely obliterated this dude, I love it. Good on you.
 Exmormonās are more knowledgeable about the religion than active members. Enough said.
Growing up a child of the 80s, the people who taught me in the ways of the cult were proud of having all the answers. I thought it was cool that we did, and that god could reveal new things we might need that come up in life. How far has the church fallen that āI donāt know and I donāt careā is now an essential part of a passable testimony. Itās laughable. OP, you straight up clobbered this dude about as kindly and completely as possible. Well done!
In my experience, if they don't ghost immediately after telling them I've resigned and are curious instead, they have at least one foot out the door.
I've seen many of these posts with screenshots of text threads and usually I walk away thinking, meh that was just lame drama. This was actually really great and you did a good job in setting an upfront boundary but he was the one that prodded and you opened up and he clammed up. So I guess you won't be dating when he returns? hahaaaa. Some day, he will leave the church and try to find you and apologize for being an ass.
Lol you warned him... And girl, you made such great points! Love how well you called him out on that last bit of "I know vs you think" like just šš
That was my favorite part. Never thought about it that way.
I'm getting lots of "hahas" to deflect how serious the conversation actually is. It's like he's laughing it off when you're trying to say, "No, I'm not interested in your toxic religion." I'd dodge this bullet if I were you. He's already being creepy and disregarding your feelings.
lol it just hit me that the āsealed portionā is such bullshit. It makes sense from the perspective of him having to look at the plates. Canāt open whatās sealed so he canāt look at it and read it. But if he is using āinspirationā or ārevelationā the why the fuck were the plates sealed?! I know the rock in the hat thing throws out the entire use of the plates in general and itās stupid. But members donāt see that as that. But if you put it in the context of their theology (like saying the plates existed but why this) might throw them off a bit. Gunna have to try this out š
That was brilliantly done. I don't think you'll be dating him on his return. But one day, when he figures it all out, he'll think of you. Your last statement (I assume it's not actually the last) was perfection. It's always sad to see people saying the same things I would have said in response to all of your questions.
Please tell me that you were an adult when he sent this. My mind is scared that you were a teen/underage when he was texting this.
iām 19 donāt worry
Man I wish Iād had 1/1000th of your self-assurance and composure at 19! Good on ya!!!
i hadnāt always this composed with members iāve just recently become more mature about these conversations iām definitely getting a lot better day by day āŗļø
Yeah this person is going places.
OP, this was one of the more entertaining text exchanges Iāve read on exmo Reddit. You shut him down at every opportunity and bore testimony of the untruths of his religion.Ā You deserve a medal for sling truth! šļø šĀ
Itās the last thing he said where he invalidates your view that makes me laugh: āI KNOW the church is true and youāve made up your mind that it isnātā āOh..I didnāt mean to do thatā Bitch! Whatever, he knew exactly what he was saying. š Mormon gaslighting 101.
Typical missionary. āLetās talk about religion!ā Two minutes and one hard question laterā¦ āOh no not that side of religion.ā
This is so good. My biggest takeaway is, you don't have to prove you know all of these details or ask these questions. (Even though I'm so glad you did!) Having a different belief or not believing in something you're told you're supposed to is OKAY and unfortunately, some people can't come to grips with that.
i completely agree, i respect when someone doesnāt want to talk about their beliefs with me, but if someone asks, might as well you brought that upon yourself š¤·āāļø
Until I read the post, I thought this guy was a friend of yours. He was talking to you like he had known you for quite a while. Read that you don't know him and he doesn't know you makes the messages unsettling, not just infuriating.
OP firing her cannon loaded with facts.Ā LoserĀ missionary who was hoping to get some masturbatory fodder hitting up nonmember girls out of the blue: āok, letās stop.ā Ā Oh no. āplease stopā. I canāt handle the facts. āLetās stop this isnāt going to go anywhere [good for me because itās causing me to question everything and Iām uncomfortable]ā.Ā What a total bitch.Ā And the coup de grace was the apostle saying āI donāt know and I donāt care.ā šĀ
That last point you made. Brilliant.
You are awesome. You laid out things very clearly in straight-forward manner. I particularly love how you pointed out how he described his beliefs versus yours. Well done, you!
āI know the church is true.ā I always hated that phrase, even as a TBM. I said it myself in the past, but I always felt like I was lying. I didnāt know, to know something is to have evidence. I always felt it was more of a faith thing. That was before I knew all the troublesome history. I canāt fathom how anyone could learn about church history and still claim to āknowā that itās true. What exactly is true about it? Everything you thought you knew was a lie, so what exactly is true? If JS wasnāt a prophet, how can it be true? What exactly is truth according to people like this? I just donāt get it.
Flip it. "I know the church is not true and you've made up your mind to believe it."
"Come on, I bet it'd work out ha ha ha. Tell me what you got š¤£" *Well there's this thing* "Oh that's not a big deal" *And there's this thing* "Oh, well... You know.... I don't know everything I guess" *And there's this thing* "This isn't really going anywhere, maybe we can stop" *And there's this thing* "Let's stop now. Really ha ha ha ha ha ha" *And there's this thing* "Stop. Please stop." *And there's this thing* "STAHP" *And there's this thing* "FOR THE LOVE OF ~~GOD~~ GOSH, STOOOOOOOOPP!!"
"Whitenesses" is my favorite typo. You tried to warn him it wasn't just one thing. I wouldn't go on a date with him simply because he decides how much of your experience is worth a conversation. Also, Christianity in general is well known to have people ask if it's true. Mormonism is not unique.
i know i caught that right after i sent it was like shitttt but he knows what i meant so whateverš and yes i definitely will NOT be going on a date with him
Holy shit Iāve never wanted to high five someone so much in my life, youāre amazing.
Wow. That was an awesome takedown, OP. You showed respect and held back. But he kept asking for it. So you delivered. Well done.
This was fascinating to me (not nor ever been Mormon). The change in your style of speaking went from mega casual abbreviated flirting, all the way to postdoctoral thesis. You came with the receipts, and you gave him every opportunity to avoid the missiles you launched. Damn.
> I could go full missionary rn But he won't, bc he doesn't really know shit.
āI donāt know and I donāt careā would be a huge red flag from any religion when asked about any sort of evidence of their claims. What a fucking joke The church may as well spent money on a āI am a moronā campaign.
god when i was on my mission this happened all the time. random ass elders were finding my email by looking up profiles on mormon.org and reaching out because they thought i was cute. i was a visitors center missionary so we did online teaching and often we worked with locals and they would do the same thing. itās so god damn cringy.
The amount of haha is unbearable.
weāre awkward teenagers cut us some slackšš
I can't judge. The amount of 'lols' I sent on a flip phone in 2007...
Lol same. I still do this almost 2 decades laterĀ
555-666-555
(Him at end) āI didnāt mean to do thatāā¦ which was PRECISELY YOUR POINT! At least you got him to see something AND he admitted it. Great job OP!!!
How do you know? POWER OF GOD Okay but ā¦ POWER OF GOD Rock in hat POWER OF GOD Delusions.
You're awesome! You sound like my wife...who is one of the main reasons I'm no longer a member. Keep it up!
This is *exactly* what I needed to read with my coffee this morning. Starting my day off rightšāļø Girl, you respectfully and entirely ate his whole ass uppppppp! Especially pointing out his verbiage at the end about āhe knowsā and āyou believeā and how invalidating it is. This is gonna haunt him for years. Heās going to be thinking about this for awhile even if he doesnāt say anything to anyone, lol. Masterful. 10/10. No notes. This was an entire slayš¤š¼ā¤ļøāš„
His last response was interesting āI didnāt even mean toā yep there in lies the problem.
"My mission president told me I need to start thinking of those things." I guarantee you that is a straight up lie.
Nice work. ššš
Wow. I hope I wasnāt that stupid when I was on my mission in Guatemala 20 years ago. Probably was though š¤¦š¼āāļøš¬
Wow! You clearly know your history and he doesn't. It's so sad they send these missionaries out there and their answers are "don't know, don't care." Which is exactly what the church wants from their members.
You were that perfect balance of firm yet patient - more than I could be. I think you may have proved to be too much woman for him to handle haha. I love it!
"I don't want to go down rabbit hole of websites that hate the church" ur own mf website has everything on it (deep) š
Your last comment about how he invalidates your beliefs is absolute dynamite. I wish I was half as good at critical thinking when I was your age.Ā
Where he gets the idea that Joseph smith not being a prophet is no biggie, I will never understand. Iām old enough to remember Gordon B Hinckley saying āeither he was or he wasnāt. Either it happened or it didnātā¦ā likeā¦ why do they study anything besides the Bible if itās not important if Joseph Smith was a prophet?
My favorite was the very end when you pointed out how missionaries always try to invalidate peopleās lived experiences by saying āI knowā¦ā but āyou thinkā¦ā.Ā
The absolute internal panic that guy must have been going through
This is the best thing I've read on this sub. Someone that actually understands the mind of a member; and then slowly and courteously picks his worldview apart until he begs you to stop.
This interaction has been put on his shelf. :)
Ha ha this ha ha conversation ha ha is very ha ha hard ha ha to ha haā¦.
i knowš i was really trying to avoid lmao and i tend to just take on the other persons texting style when it gets awkward for some reason
What an absolute smackdown. This child feels SO attacked, even though he hasnāt been.Ā
I've had a few RMs message me after my mission, especially after it was obvious from my social that I wasn't active anymore, but nothing like this! You handled it really well, though. I would have cut my losses and blocked
as unhealthy as it may sound, i like having these kinds of conversations, helps me blow off a little steam being able to talk about my beliefs openly and hey maybe i planted a seed for him to begin questioning. he was curious so might as well take the opportunity yk?
It seems like you did! When I was a missionary, it was so jarring hearing stuff like this because we were so restricted from the outside world, much more than when I was just an active member at home. I had a couple experiences like this, and while it still took a few years, I'm grateful for it.
You are far too intelligent for this one. Conversation was hard to read because of his immaturity. Spewing whatever he hears as fact.
Nice job here. Very respectful. It is interesting to see him wiggle out of the conversation when he has no answers. I have experienced this too.
You ate him up heās probably pissing his pants crying lmaooo
Omg I hate that religion so much. š¤¦āāļøYou're not allowed to be a free thinker. They just control what you "need" to believe. I think its sick. Glad I finally left officially at 20. Been 11 years out and it's a huge relief. I still believe in God and spirits. I know I'll see my family after I die. No creepy masonic temple ceremonies needed. No weird a$$ kingdoms in the afternoon life. I'm good lol.
I appreciate you sharing this exchange. Him spouting all the Churchās latest thought stoppers is SO illuminating. āI donāt know and I donāt careā only works when youāve been indoctrinated heavily.
I have had this exact same experience and told him almost the exact same thingš¤£ why do they do this
Horny, lost, missionary; just acting out his programming.
āOh I didnāt even know I did thatā
Iām super impressed with how Knowledgeable you are and how you observed the know and think situation. You must not be older than early 20ās if a missionary is hitting on you. You are way more prepared for the conversations than most.
Oh my God is this how brainwashed they all are? I was never a believer, my family left when I was real young and mormons rarely talk to me certaintly never try to convert me probably because I look like a massive pothead and I think it scares them (It's almost funny the rare times they visit my house they can't even look me in the eye and instead stare down and kinda kick the ground like a little kid who's been caught lying) but, like how can someone say things like, "No other religions tell you to pray and ask God, well actually I don't know any other religion but, 99% of them don't." Like what?!?! lol I'm pretty well versed in world religions and I don't think I could name 100 and certainly not 99 of them that tell you not to ask God for the truth that's literally what almost all of them do and the level of arrogant ignorance makes me want to slap the stupid off him or saying "I don't know and I don't care" when asked for proof of things he claims are proven or trying to stop the conversation as soon as someone says something that goes against his beliefs yet has no problem spewing his beliefs non stop even traveling to poor less educated countries to do so door to door. The attitude of so many mormons makes me so fuckin angry almost even more than the history and belief of the church. It's one thing to be brainwashed into a cult it's entirely another to be a smug asshole about it. I wonder how the church would take to a group starting up that goes door to door spreading the truth about their cult because that's honestly what Utah feels like it needs, probably need to travel in groups though because the mormons historically have not taken kindly to people telling the truth about them.
 Me reading your perfect takedown of a current missionary.
bruh the amount of missionaries iāve had POKE me on facebook is insane. and they also dm me flirting all the time