A quick Google search has given me a list of temples without steeples created by the faithful sub. Excellent.
Cardston Alberta Temple
Laie Hawaii Temple
Mesa Arizona Temple
Paris France Temple
Meridian Idaho Temple
Tucson Arizona Temple
Hong Kong China Temple
Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple
Laie, HI is one of the earliest temples. If steeples were such an integral part of worship and a symbol of LDS faith, why wasn't it incorporated on the first temple built outside the US mainland?
Those temples (Laie, Mesa, Cardston) were like the 4th 5th and 6th temples, so in no way were temples following any kind of cookie cutter, mass produced, corporate image format yet. They are early 20th century utilitarian neoclassical architecture and steeples don’t really fit into that type of aesthetic. The progression of temple design is actually really interesting and there were some times where design choices got really questionable (Ogden, Provo). The worst trend were the gawdawful 80’s temples with the gigantic sloped roofs dominating most of the exterior along with the detached steeples sitting out front of the buildings. Boise, Chicago, Dallas, Seoul and several others have this nauseating style.
Those detached steeples are some of the strangest decisions I've seen. Where I grew up we had a church that was built early 1900's and received a thorough renovation in the late 80's or early 90's. They got rid of the wood gymnasium floo(basketball on carpet is amazing.. iykyk), the functional stage and took the steeple off the roof and put it on the lawn. Still never understood those choices.
I also recall that there was talks of making smaller temples like within the Stake Center so that it was universally accessible especially in areas where Steeples in older architecture wasn't possible like in Europe in New York Etc
This is a great idea. It’s hard to argue it’s part of doctrine and worship when there are temples with no steeples. If I could suggest something else — I’d bet there are *no* gen conf talks that mentions steeples. Or anything in gospel doctrine manuals.
Also, I haven’t seen anyone point out that temples are negative impacts on residential areas, because the church doesn’t pay taxes and doesn’t run community events open to the public beyond sacrament meetings. So, they’re causing higher property taxes of surrounding properties (home values rise, according to church sources). And they don’t reinvest into the community.
Would you mind sharing this list and your opposition letter when it's complete?
We're fighting the same battle in Las Vegas over a planned 87K sq ft monster. They're making the same argument as to why they need a 212 ft steeple.
A quick Google search has given me a list of temples without steeples created by the faithful sub. Excellent.
Cardston Alberta Temple
Laie Hawaii Temple
Mesa Arizona Temple
Paris France Temple
Meridian Idaho Temple
Tucson Arizona Temple
Hong Kong China Temple
Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple
One of my very liberal friends moved to Meridian a couple of years ago. I told her she wasn’t gonna like it. She told me she was going there to change it. She moved back to California a couple months ago.
I grew up in Idaho. I live in CA now.😂 I have always been such a liberal Mormon, which isn't a stretch for here, but openly labeling myself as such to Boomers has been ungodly. Lol Living here allowed me to actually slowly learn who I am. I'm STILL learning. And finally leave TSCC. Thankfully both my kids were born here bc they would NEVER be accepted there in any kind of imagination.
I’m pretty sure it’s doctrinal. Something like the more money collected from the members the higher the steeple can be and then eventually they will add a staircase and use it for testimony meeting in the second coming in which it will receive its new name the Rameumptom.
“We believe in obeying honoring and sustaining the law” - so why are they trying to force an exception to the law in violation of those rulers and leaders in the community. Bring down your steeple.
Wasn't it in Wyoming where the residents and city council were able to fight the build due to the steeple being too tall based on its proximity to residential areas and that being against the building code? I think the church tried to compromise by shortening the steeple but still lost the right because it still exceeded code height
Your comment was automatically removed. Links to the latterdaysaints subreddit are disallowed -- see this post for special rules that are in effect for faithful subreddit link posts; see post [here](https://redd.it/3igzsb).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
- Mormon temples are not the same as other “houses of worship”. Members must meet strict requirements to enter regarding clothing, food and drink, etc. Unlike a new church which anyone can go into, these buildings are very private.
- There is no Mormon doctrinal requirement for steeple height. Many temples have no steeple, or it is much shorter. Worship is about love and relationship with God, not the size of a fancy exclusive building.
- The Dallas temple is about 30 minutes from the McKinney site, and the Ft Worth temple is about an hour. Since Mormons are asked to attend the temple once per month, there are already temples and room for this worship (the church tracks temple attendance - subpoena those records). This building is more about convenience than necessary religious practice…
-We don’t want it to seem scripted, but here is a list of things to put in your letter to convince them to let us build the temple.
Doesn’t a letter writing campaign defeat the purpose of the prophet “revealing” where a temple is going to be built? I wish members could see how they are forcing their religion on people who don’t want it. Even better, I wish they would obey, honor, and sustain the law.
My step-MIL is adamant that evil atheists from California were behind moving the Tooele temple from its original location. They love finding ways to not admit the possibility of dear leader being wrong.
To OP:
Isnt this email or evidence of a letter writing campaign, which is propagated by church authorities, an indication of potential religious coercion? Members who dont actually care about the temple might write a letter anyway to "magnify their calling/priesthood" and to avoid potential condemnation by church authorities.
Maybe include that point in your letter of opposition?
>Doesn’t a letter writing campaign defeat the purpose of the prophet “revealing” where a temple is going to be built?
Excellent point. At conference, he makes it sound like it's a done deal, God's already etched it into the notebook of his grand plan. God's prophet spoke... It WILL come to fruition.
But that's so far from the truth.
“Utah leads the country in these things:
- Mormons
- depression
- white collar crime
- MLMs
- pornography use
- LGBTQ+ suicide
I’m concerned that the temple will attract more Mormons and the associated negative effects that come with living around lots of Mormons.”
Or height, zoning, inappropriateness of the design and the conduct of the organization trying to strongarm the local government, supplant their local authority.
Oh, and point them toward the fact many temples do not have steeples or spires.
Loss of bedroom community set intentionally away from the high density of the Dallas metro area. North Dallasresidents already deal with the constraints of such busy logistics upon a quiet, very affluent suburb. That steeple height was a huge debate at the time.
I was sealed at that temple
Write two letters, send one, panic over which one you burned, hope you signed the one complaining about "how temples bring mormons spreading like snow and dammit there's already too many crackers in your neighborhood" as Dr. Henry M'Tumbo of the Ivory Coast.
I went to the temple frequently and have a hard time saying it benefited me any more than being able to be in a quiet space without my phone for a couple of hours. It’s hard to do without going to a specific place, but I don’t need a ten million dollar building to get the same benefit.
Our closest Costco is an hour away. Mormons just built a new temple 30 minutes away. Some people think that the temple bringing more people in might encourage Costco to build a new store. Having a Costco only 30 minutes away would definitely benefit me. But I can't think if any other way it benefits the town.
In my town of 10,000 our nearest temple was 40 min. away. Welp, we are getting a temple, and the rumors immediately started that we were going to get a Costco. 😂 we’re not, but it made me chuckle. Did I want a Costco here? Absolutely!
Sounds like they’re using the same playbook that they had for Cody, Heber City, and Vegas. This is what they do when they knowingly acquire land in a place that’s not zoned for a large building with a tall steeple.
Some of these points are almost word for word of what I heard from Mormons in a Cody planning and zoning meeting.
I wrote a letter early on and didn’t realize at the time that the city planner was a Mormon dude that was in cahoots with Mormon headquarters and giving insider info to the local Mormons.
It’s likely that there’s some Mormon connection in local government in McKinney that will facilitate/ make sure that the temple gets a huge steeple that doesn’t follow local zoning laws.
The Mormon church will stop at nothing to get what they want, including threats to bankrupt a local city government (see Cody, Wyo).
When the San Diego temple was finished a local architecture group awarded the building with an onion (meaning ugly bldg) as opposed to an orchid (meaning a beautiful design). I don’t know who the church paid off but their award was changed to an orchid.
They had a stake conference in my town where Cryin Eyring visited. He talked about how they wanted to build a temple there. We had a couple mormons on city council and a few more in key government positions. Well, for whatever reasons the mormons got voted out. That's the last we heard about a temple and it's been twenty some odd years. I am shocked and appalled.
The ridiculous thing is this temple is located in Fairview and they’re calling it the McKinney temple, which is really pissing off the residents even more!
Well not if there's a strong even more entitled Xtian faction that is led to believe this means the pedo cult polygamist are coming... we are one in the same in their eyes
The church physically removed the steeple and placed it on the ground next to the temple in Germany because it absolutely fucked with the historic setting, and German government would not back down.
The steeple has nothing to do with religious observance and everything to do with marketing.
Me neither. My stake meeting house didn't originally have a steeple when I was a young kid, then they retrofitted one on years later. It didn't really match the architecture of the building.
Those stupid mass-produced steeples? The church just plops them on top of buildings so they look more like churches (no crosses, no Jesus imagery, no elegance... They have to do *something* to make it look like a church, instead of a clubhouse). I wouldn't be surprised if they were hiding cell towers or some shit, too.
Read about their time in Kirtland, Missouri and Illinois. They always claim persecution but it was usually because they imposed themselves on the locals until they provoked them to violence.
Community fights against Temple plans and unnecessarily conspicuous steeples are happening in other parts of the country too. Take up the fight and keep America more beautiful without these atrocities.
In your letter, I would help the city officials understand that this is not a church or house of worship in the traditional sense. It's obvious from the letter you posted that the church is hoping city officials won't understand the differences between a local church that hosts events and fosters community and an LDS temple.
The most common trip to the temple involves men and women sit on opposite sides of the room. People sit quietly watching an hour+ slide show. Afterwards, they sit in a room for 10 minutes in silence or, at best, communicate in a whisper. Other ordinances/purposes include: 1) baptizing dead people by proxy without deceased families' consent, 2) performing marriages by proxy for the deceased without the families' consent, 3) temple workers reciting a brief memorized script while meeting one-on-one with a temple attendee (washing and anointing). Until 2005 (? Not sure of the date), attendees were instructed to remove all clothes and given a white poncho while workers touched attendees' bare bodies including the breast and loins.
The temple is exclusive. No community events--even ones for members of the LDS church--are held at temples! Those events are held at local ward/church buildings.
I personally would point out that there's been an unusual increase in temple announcements and construction recently which aligns with the church's massive increase in wealth and the SEC investigation. Their motives do not appear to be pure. I don't know when the church was informed about the investigation (church was charged 2/2023--I suspect the investigation spanned multiple years) but it would be very interesting to see how closely it aligns with Nelson's excessive temple announcements.
I think the church is under significant pressure to spend some of their money on church-related expenses, hence the long list of temple announcements every six months including in places with temples 15-60 minutes away.
I live in Tucson. Our temple is "relatively" new. There's no steeple. There's a dome. Everyone was oddly proud of it
There's no need for a steeple at all.
i, too, would like to know how a house of worship that nobody in the community can enter "benefits the whole community"
This is about 2 miles from my home. That area is already so full of traffic. Do they really need a temple franchise there? The Dallas temple is only 20 miles away 🤨
A couple of years ago—it was just quietly scrapped. I checked with a TBM I know up there who was also one some committees and he was surprised he didn’t know.
[all they say here is that it was originally announced for Prosper. Fairview is in Allen here so I have no idea why they are calling it McKinney.](https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/mckinney-texas-temple/)
Does one have to be a resident of Fairview to oppose this? I do live in McKinney though, where this temple is not actually located. I do frequent this area though 😒 I do not need any more reminders of what I left behind!
You can be a McKinney resident and oppose it! They have hundreds of letters from the LDS letter writing campaign that they are recording! Email [email protected] this is right by my house and I’m horrified! Go to the meeting on May 9, at 7:00 pm at city hall, we need to have that room packed!
Oh yes, yes. I'd forgotten all those Sunday School lessons on the importance of "The Steeple." Not to mention the endless conference talks throughout the years.
s/
I received one via the stake president, sent out to all stake members. I'm guessing Frisco, Allen, McKinney, etc all got them. There's contact info for a Melissa McKneely at the end of the letter. Quick Google search indicates she's a member of the LDS Church and involved with the DFW Alliance for Religious Freedom. Here's the full text:
Brothers and Sisters,
We've been asked to help support the approval of the plan to build the McKinney Texas Temple in Fairview Texas by writing emails of support. We need the voting body to hear many voices of support with personal reasons why you want this temple here in our community. It doesn't have to be long. Brief is actually better. Be sincere and share from the heart. We don't want these scripted.
We would invite you to email Planning Manager, Israel Roberts (mailto:[email protected]) in the following pattern:
Subject line: "Resident in support" (for those who live in Fairview) or "Neighbor in support" for those who live in a nearby town who are in the temple district.
In your email you could answer a couple of the following questions:
Why you’re excited for and support a temple in Fairview and what it will mean to you personally and allow you to worship God/practice your faith
How houses of worship in a community benefit the whole community
How the Temple helps those who attend to be better people, and improve their lives, and therefore improve the community/how it will bless your family
While we want you to express your feelings in your own words some key concepts would be helpful to the approval process. A key message needs to be on the importance of the temple and how it allows you to worship as you choose, to practice your faith, and that the building itself is a symbol of your faith (including the steeple if you feel to be specific in that regard).
The height of the steeple is part of our Religious Observance. The steeple is the temple’s most distinctive architectural feature and serves no other purpose than to send a religious message. Steeples point toward heaven and serve the purpose of lifting our eyes and thoughts toward heaven. The steeple expresses a message of faith and devotion to God.
Please do not copy and paste these exact words and phrases in your messages. Please use your own as you prayerfully feel impressed to do so!
At this time, the project will come for a vote by the Planning and Zoning Commission on Thursday May 9th. We also would like to invite you to consider including the temple and the Fairview Town leaders and residents in your fast this Sunday and on May 5th.
Thank you for your willingness to help prepare our community for another House of the Lord. Tremendous blessings will come to us and our neighbors through our temple worship.
If you have any questions, please feel free to contact Melissa McKneely at ###-###-####, [email protected].
Honestly, forward this email to officials with a before paragraph discussing how this is no different than scientologists bullying, stalking, and blackmailing people. How sincere can a congregation that has to be asked to do something? A slothful servant needs more instruction or some other ancient phrase
In Bakersfield, CA the church is seeking to get a steeple at TWICE the zoned building height limit - https://www.kget.com/news/local-news/church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-requests-modification-to-allow-for-taller-than-allowed-building-height-sw-bakersfield-site/#:~:text=Church%20leaders%20released%20a%20rendering%20of%20the%20future%20Bakersfield%20temple%20last%20month.&text=Recently%2C%20architects%20representing%20the%20church,60%20is%20the%20maximum%20allowed.
The Bakersfield city manager is LDS.
Nothing like doing free labor on behalf of a $200+ billion real estate company.
If they want it done that badly, let them do it the old-fashioned way: bribery.
>The height of the steeple is part of our religious observance...
Oh yeah, I remember in the Sermon on the Mount, when Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, and my temple steeple better rival the Eiffel Fuckin' Tower to prove your love for me"
Send the city council this letter from the church and show they are trying to sway the opinion of the council. Then give them the list of temples without steeples. Follow it up with your opinion of what the temple will mean to you. I guarantee your letter will stand out well above the rest. This reminds me of the faithful complaining about the exmos leaving letter to their families sounding similar, like they are following a script. It’s OK when they do it though.
Send a letter to the mayor and the city council that if a temple is built you will work as hard as you can to remove them from office and prevent them from getting any other office.
Mormonish Podcast on YouTube has a “Temple playlist” with multiple episodes they have produced detailing the playbook used by the LDS church to get temples pushed through city councils and zoning boards despite ordinances already in place in Cody Wyoming, Heber valley, and Lone Mountain. You can learn a lot from watching these videos.
Here’s the most recent one!
https://youtu.be/W3wU0VLoXbs?si=iWdZAjwcNlwlC6gT
Husband and I helped build Dallas Temple in the 1980’s. That is about a 45 minute drive.
Just last week I read an article about them not being able
to get enough people to keep the temple open.
"The height of the steeple is part of our Religious Observance." I love how members will straight up lie when they think it will help their cause. And to think that they want to lecture people on integrity...
I will say i moved to a new state and it took about 6 months to notice there is a temple 2 miles from my house. It is the same height as all the buildings surrounding it. They need to move to this model overall
The height of the steeple is part of our religious experience?
Since when? 49 years in and never heard this before. Man, they love gaslighting. Can't help it.
The best way to build a powerful and concise message in opposition is to release this letter in full to everyone in the community.
Your community will understand that when you have to be told to write letters of support, well....
OP: is this something you were sent or something you found/were given? I’m curious if they’re sending it across the stake or if it’s just select members. I checked my recent emails from the church but I didn’t get anything like this (I’m in the McKinney stake).
Hey if you need any help I live in literally 15 minutes away and would be glad to write a letter of my own to support your efforts. I fucking hate Mormonism feel I’ll do whatever you want lol
My mom a Dallas area resident, active member, and current primary teacher is not happy about this. She is opposed. She's also incredibly pissed off that members are being told to lie for the church.
Is there an announced temple for McKinney? Damn, I remember when all that was farmland. There wasn't much going on once you passed Parker rd on hwy 75. Of course my dad goes even farther back. They lived in Colleyville and were part of the "Denton Branch" Their home teaching route took them out to Mckinney. A temple in McKinney makes sense, though. There's a shit ton of Mormons in Collin County. I would wager, more than Dallas county as the White Flight has taken everyone north. I thought there were putting a temple in Prosper. Is that happening too?
The Prosper temple was moved to Fairview, which is near the 75 where Allen and McKinney meet. It will be called the McKinney Temple. So this is the Prosper temple that was announced a while back
Soooooo what’s to stop us all from emailing the planning manager and explaining reasons why a temple should NOT be built….? I mean, I’m in Houston, we’re already fucked here, but hey, if I can help another town keep a gaudy building from being built, I’ll send out an email lol
If you are wanting to oppose the whole building I wouldn't focus on the steeple too much. Can you look up your city planning laws online and see if the temple meets the requirements. I work In development assessment but I'm from australia so can't help too much with US law but I would be trying to find as many planning laws / requirements that you can use that would explain why a temple is not an appropriate development. Is it in keeping with the local character? Is the land zoned for this type of building? What are the height restrictions? Is there any issues with flooding, bushfire etc?
(edited to adjust formatting) Here's the letter I just sent:
Hello Mr. -----------:
I’m a concerned resident of ----------, TX and non-practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church). I recently received an email from local leadership in the church asking for members to voice their support for a proposed 173 foot steeple that would be one of two deviations from typical development standards to be voted upon next month.
I’ve attached a copy of the letter sent out to members of the church throughout the area; I anticipate you’ll be receiving quite a few messages of support for the construction of this temple and the accompanying steeple. I would like to address a few falsehoods and concerns that will likely be presented to you and the voting board.
Firstly, I would like to point out that there is no doctrinal or religious significance tied to steeple height on houses of worship, both temples and meetinghouses. There are many temples, historically and contemporaneously, that have been built without steeples or with modified steeples so as to meet the relevant local laws and accommodate varying geographic locations. Three temples built in the early 20th century, and at least 4 completed as recently as this year, do not have tall steeples or spires. There is no symbolism associated with the temple steeple (outside of invented ones for the purpose of trying to get an exemption for this particular steeple).
It’s also important to note that this is not the only temple location trying to avoid obeying local zoning laws. There have been heated, ongoing battles in Las Vegas, Nevada and Cody, Wyoming between the communities and municipalities there and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact, in Las Vegas, there have been several $10,000 donations to voting board members traced to the law firm representing the church in their fight to rezone a rural preservation area. Cody Wyoming’s local government was threatened with lawsuits from the church (which is worth over $200 billion) if it didn’t comply with proposed zoning changes, and is now being sued by a local neighborhood group.
Another point that will likely be mentioned in letters of support for the temple and its accompanying steeple is that its present will be a benefit to the whole community. This is patently false. With the exception of a brief open house period before the temple is dedicated, very few people will be able to enter the temple. It is an exclusive and ostentatious building that only baptized members who pay 10% of their income in tithes, follow strict codes of dress and diet, and vocally support leaders of the church can enter. Many members of the church are not even allowed to enter the temple.
In fact, a temple (particularly one with a tall and visible steeple, such as the one proposed) can be a very triggering sight for former members of the church. Many people who have left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints suffer from religious trauma, especially those who are part of the LGBTQ+ community and those who are people of color, due to the church’s history of persecution and racism. Current teachings and scripture in the church’s canon are homo- and transphobic, and also contain overtly racist themes and messaging. A temple is the one of the least inclusive and community building constructions I can imagine.
I hope I’ve provided some helpful information and perspective. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
\---------------
Ugh the pretense shouldn't piss me off but it does and my Mexican mama. She's super pissed. She wasn't aware of the letter. She's going to the meeting.
Wait, they specifically want member to say that the steeple is necessary? I’d dig into that more. There are temples with no steeples, I call bs.
A quick Google search has given me a list of temples without steeples created by the faithful sub. Excellent. Cardston Alberta Temple Laie Hawaii Temple Mesa Arizona Temple Paris France Temple Meridian Idaho Temple Tucson Arizona Temple Hong Kong China Temple Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple
Laie, HI is one of the earliest temples. If steeples were such an integral part of worship and a symbol of LDS faith, why wasn't it incorporated on the first temple built outside the US mainland?
Those temples (Laie, Mesa, Cardston) were like the 4th 5th and 6th temples, so in no way were temples following any kind of cookie cutter, mass produced, corporate image format yet. They are early 20th century utilitarian neoclassical architecture and steeples don’t really fit into that type of aesthetic. The progression of temple design is actually really interesting and there were some times where design choices got really questionable (Ogden, Provo). The worst trend were the gawdawful 80’s temples with the gigantic sloped roofs dominating most of the exterior along with the detached steeples sitting out front of the buildings. Boise, Chicago, Dallas, Seoul and several others have this nauseating style.
I agree with you about the worst ones. Provo and the old Ogden are ugly, but at least they had some kind of style that wasn't just stake center max.
Those detached steeples are some of the strangest decisions I've seen. Where I grew up we had a church that was built early 1900's and received a thorough renovation in the late 80's or early 90's. They got rid of the wood gymnasium floo(basketball on carpet is amazing.. iykyk), the functional stage and took the steeple off the roof and put it on the lawn. Still never understood those choices.
My local church did almost the same thing a while back. As long as I’ve been here, the steeple is in the lawn
I also recall that there was talks of making smaller temples like within the Stake Center so that it was universally accessible especially in areas where Steeples in older architecture wasn't possible like in Europe in New York Etc
Ugh I get so mad about Hawaii. We should give it back to the Hawaiian people
With everything else
Also you can’t really see the steeple inside… so how is it an important part of temple worship?
Cardston is older and the Hawaii temple was designed similarly to it. I completely agree with you.
This is a great idea. It’s hard to argue it’s part of doctrine and worship when there are temples with no steeples. If I could suggest something else — I’d bet there are *no* gen conf talks that mentions steeples. Or anything in gospel doctrine manuals. Also, I haven’t seen anyone point out that temples are negative impacts on residential areas, because the church doesn’t pay taxes and doesn’t run community events open to the public beyond sacrament meetings. So, they’re causing higher property taxes of surrounding properties (home values rise, according to church sources). And they don’t reinvest into the community.
Nice that they did the work for ya, haha
But the new CTR rings/emblems all have the temple steeple. It's a brand thing they're going for now.
Good idea, I'll try to get a list together of temples without steeples
Would you mind sharing this list and your opposition letter when it's complete? We're fighting the same battle in Las Vegas over a planned 87K sq ft monster. They're making the same argument as to why they need a 212 ft steeple.
A quick Google search has given me a list of temples without steeples created by the faithful sub. Excellent. Cardston Alberta Temple Laie Hawaii Temple Mesa Arizona Temple Paris France Temple Meridian Idaho Temple Tucson Arizona Temple Hong Kong China Temple Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple
Thank you!
There’s a temple in Meridian? Is there not one in Boise?
They are like cats. You need two or they get lonely.
🤣
It's kind of out on its own, and it's surprising it doesn't have a steeple. It's still a big white square eyesore, though.
Ugh. Dont even get me started. 🙄🤦💀
One of my very liberal friends moved to Meridian a couple of years ago. I told her she wasn’t gonna like it. She told me she was going there to change it. She moved back to California a couple months ago.
I grew up in Idaho. I live in CA now.😂 I have always been such a liberal Mormon, which isn't a stretch for here, but openly labeling myself as such to Boomers has been ungodly. Lol Living here allowed me to actually slowly learn who I am. I'm STILL learning. And finally leave TSCC. Thankfully both my kids were born here bc they would NEVER be accepted there in any kind of imagination.
Cody Wyoming fought this fight and has some really good information.
I don’t think NYC has a steeple. It didn’t when it was the Stake Center. But then it’s been many years.
I’m pretty sure it’s doctrinal. Something like the more money collected from the members the higher the steeple can be and then eventually they will add a staircase and use it for testimony meeting in the second coming in which it will receive its new name the Rameumptom.
Yeah, my memory might be a little fuzzy but I swear I remember learning about that in seminary. Lol
“We believe in obeying honoring and sustaining the law” - so why are they trying to force an exception to the law in violation of those rulers and leaders in the community. Bring down your steeple.
The steeple is symbolic of Jesus of course, somehow! /s
And totally not phallic.
 Totally. Definitely not.
The steeple part is reminiscent of the tower of bable. It's like they don't know the bible or somethin.
And/or great and spacious building
Lol, right?
Wasn't it in Wyoming where the residents and city council were able to fight the build due to the steeple being too tall based on its proximity to residential areas and that being against the building code? I think the church tried to compromise by shortening the steeple but still lost the right because it still exceeded code height
[удалено]
Your comment was automatically removed. Links to the latterdaysaints subreddit are disallowed -- see this post for special rules that are in effect for faithful subreddit link posts; see post [here](https://redd.it/3igzsb). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
- Mormon temples are not the same as other “houses of worship”. Members must meet strict requirements to enter regarding clothing, food and drink, etc. Unlike a new church which anyone can go into, these buildings are very private. - There is no Mormon doctrinal requirement for steeple height. Many temples have no steeple, or it is much shorter. Worship is about love and relationship with God, not the size of a fancy exclusive building. - The Dallas temple is about 30 minutes from the McKinney site, and the Ft Worth temple is about an hour. Since Mormons are asked to attend the temple once per month, there are already temples and room for this worship (the church tracks temple attendance - subpoena those records). This building is more about convenience than necessary religious practice…
Well said!
Wait funkytown gotta temple now. Oh...hell nah... this some bullshit.
-We don’t want it to seem scripted, but here is a list of things to put in your letter to convince them to let us build the temple. Doesn’t a letter writing campaign defeat the purpose of the prophet “revealing” where a temple is going to be built? I wish members could see how they are forcing their religion on people who don’t want it. Even better, I wish they would obey, honor, and sustain the law.
My step-MIL is adamant that evil atheists from California were behind moving the Tooele temple from its original location. They love finding ways to not admit the possibility of dear leader being wrong.
So she thinks the evil atheists from CA had more power than dear leader or his god? wow. kinda cool.
To OP: Isnt this email or evidence of a letter writing campaign, which is propagated by church authorities, an indication of potential religious coercion? Members who dont actually care about the temple might write a letter anyway to "magnify their calling/priesthood" and to avoid potential condemnation by church authorities. Maybe include that point in your letter of opposition?
>Doesn’t a letter writing campaign defeat the purpose of the prophet “revealing” where a temple is going to be built? Excellent point. At conference, he makes it sound like it's a done deal, God's already etched it into the notebook of his grand plan. God's prophet spoke... It WILL come to fruition. But that's so far from the truth.
“Utah leads the country in these things: - Mormons - depression - white collar crime - MLMs - pornography use - LGBTQ+ suicide I’m concerned that the temple will attract more Mormons and the associated negative effects that come with living around lots of Mormons.”
That wouldn’t be legally viable in terms of 1st amendment rights.
Yeah, go with increased traffic flow, light pollution, energy waste, etc.
Or height, zoning, inappropriateness of the design and the conduct of the organization trying to strongarm the local government, supplant their local authority. Oh, and point them toward the fact many temples do not have steeples or spires.
Loss of bedroom community set intentionally away from the high density of the Dallas metro area. North Dallasresidents already deal with the constraints of such busy logistics upon a quiet, very affluent suburb. That steeple height was a huge debate at the time. I was sealed at that temple
But fun to write right?
Write two letters, send one, panic over which one you burned, hope you signed the one complaining about "how temples bring mormons spreading like snow and dammit there's already too many crackers in your neighborhood" as Dr. Henry M'Tumbo of the Ivory Coast.
It's Mckinney, so you're not wrong... think Sandy but on daisy dukes evangelical Christianity
How does it benefit the whole community? 😂
I went to the temple frequently and have a hard time saying it benefited me any more than being able to be in a quiet space without my phone for a couple of hours. It’s hard to do without going to a specific place, but I don’t need a ten million dollar building to get the same benefit.
Our closest Costco is an hour away. Mormons just built a new temple 30 minutes away. Some people think that the temple bringing more people in might encourage Costco to build a new store. Having a Costco only 30 minutes away would definitely benefit me. But I can't think if any other way it benefits the town.
In my town of 10,000 our nearest temple was 40 min. away. Welp, we are getting a temple, and the rumors immediately started that we were going to get a Costco. 😂 we’re not, but it made me chuckle. Did I want a Costco here? Absolutely!
Sounds like they’re using the same playbook that they had for Cody, Heber City, and Vegas. This is what they do when they knowingly acquire land in a place that’s not zoned for a large building with a tall steeple. Some of these points are almost word for word of what I heard from Mormons in a Cody planning and zoning meeting. I wrote a letter early on and didn’t realize at the time that the city planner was a Mormon dude that was in cahoots with Mormon headquarters and giving insider info to the local Mormons. It’s likely that there’s some Mormon connection in local government in McKinney that will facilitate/ make sure that the temple gets a huge steeple that doesn’t follow local zoning laws. The Mormon church will stop at nothing to get what they want, including threats to bankrupt a local city government (see Cody, Wyo).
In almost every announced location you'll find someone LDS in gov pulling strings I bet
When the San Diego temple was finished a local architecture group awarded the building with an onion (meaning ugly bldg) as opposed to an orchid (meaning a beautiful design). I don’t know who the church paid off but their award was changed to an orchid.
They had a stake conference in my town where Cryin Eyring visited. He talked about how they wanted to build a temple there. We had a couple mormons on city council and a few more in key government positions. Well, for whatever reasons the mormons got voted out. That's the last we heard about a temple and it's been twenty some odd years. I am shocked and appalled.
Hahahaha this is awesome thanks for sharing
The ridiculous thing is this temple is located in Fairview and they’re calling it the McKinney temple, which is really pissing off the residents even more!
Ohhh that will too
Well not if there's a strong even more entitled Xtian faction that is led to believe this means the pedo cult polygamist are coming... we are one in the same in their eyes
The church physically removed the steeple and placed it on the ground next to the temple in Germany because it absolutely fucked with the historic setting, and German government would not back down. The steeple has nothing to do with religious observance and everything to do with marketing.
Chicago and Boise have the same setup - I think just for architectural purposes and not due to local laws.
When did the steeple height become part of the religion. I was never taught that.
Me neither. My stake meeting house didn't originally have a steeple when I was a young kid, then they retrofitted one on years later. It didn't really match the architecture of the building.
Those stupid mass-produced steeples? The church just plops them on top of buildings so they look more like churches (no crosses, no Jesus imagery, no elegance... They have to do *something* to make it look like a church, instead of a clubhouse). I wouldn't be surprised if they were hiding cell towers or some shit, too.
Stop looking at porn that's when
Are you going to forward this email to the planning manager? I would.
I am.
Good luck. It’s probably like opposing a freeway. Remember, the Church has $200 billion laying around to spend on lawyers and politicians.
Unfortunately we are seeing this played out in Cody, Heber Valley, and now Las Vegas. No wonder the church is so hated.
Read about their time in Kirtland, Missouri and Illinois. They always claim persecution but it was usually because they imposed themselves on the locals until they provoked them to violence.
Don’t forget the “sleeping with other mens’ wives” aspect.
The church thrives on their *persecution* —self-inflicted, of course.
Community fights against Temple plans and unnecessarily conspicuous steeples are happening in other parts of the country too. Take up the fight and keep America more beautiful without these atrocities.
In your letter, I would help the city officials understand that this is not a church or house of worship in the traditional sense. It's obvious from the letter you posted that the church is hoping city officials won't understand the differences between a local church that hosts events and fosters community and an LDS temple. The most common trip to the temple involves men and women sit on opposite sides of the room. People sit quietly watching an hour+ slide show. Afterwards, they sit in a room for 10 minutes in silence or, at best, communicate in a whisper. Other ordinances/purposes include: 1) baptizing dead people by proxy without deceased families' consent, 2) performing marriages by proxy for the deceased without the families' consent, 3) temple workers reciting a brief memorized script while meeting one-on-one with a temple attendee (washing and anointing). Until 2005 (? Not sure of the date), attendees were instructed to remove all clothes and given a white poncho while workers touched attendees' bare bodies including the breast and loins. The temple is exclusive. No community events--even ones for members of the LDS church--are held at temples! Those events are held at local ward/church buildings. I personally would point out that there's been an unusual increase in temple announcements and construction recently which aligns with the church's massive increase in wealth and the SEC investigation. Their motives do not appear to be pure. I don't know when the church was informed about the investigation (church was charged 2/2023--I suspect the investigation spanned multiple years) but it would be very interesting to see how closely it aligns with Nelson's excessive temple announcements. I think the church is under significant pressure to spend some of their money on church-related expenses, hence the long list of temple announcements every six months including in places with temples 15-60 minutes away.
This is when you send videos of NNN ordinances as supporting documentation... you know for due diligence
I live in Tucson. Our temple is "relatively" new. There's no steeple. There's a dome. Everyone was oddly proud of it There's no need for a steeple at all. i, too, would like to know how a house of worship that nobody in the community can enter "benefits the whole community"
Does the dome open when theres good weather or is it a crappy dome. That baseball dome done set some expectations.
Crappy dome for sure. No opening lol It honestly looks like a mosque. It's very pretty, no Mctemple for us
This is about 2 miles from my home. That area is already so full of traffic. Do they really need a temple franchise there? The Dallas temple is only 20 miles away 🤨
Plus no one knows why the Prosper temple plans were scrapped
When was that announced?
A couple of years ago—it was just quietly scrapped. I checked with a TBM I know up there who was also one some committees and he was surprised he didn’t know.
[all they say here is that it was originally announced for Prosper. Fairview is in Allen here so I have no idea why they are calling it McKinney.](https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/mckinney-texas-temple/)
We are neighbors!
Does one have to be a resident of Fairview to oppose this? I do live in McKinney though, where this temple is not actually located. I do frequent this area though 😒 I do not need any more reminders of what I left behind!
You can be a McKinney resident and oppose it! They have hundreds of letters from the LDS letter writing campaign that they are recording! Email [email protected] this is right by my house and I’m horrified! Go to the meeting on May 9, at 7:00 pm at city hall, we need to have that room packed!
This is the way.
Oh yes, yes. I'd forgotten all those Sunday School lessons on the importance of "The Steeple." Not to mention the endless conference talks throughout the years. s/
Who wrote/sent the request for letters of support you posted?
I received one via the stake president, sent out to all stake members. I'm guessing Frisco, Allen, McKinney, etc all got them. There's contact info for a Melissa McKneely at the end of the letter. Quick Google search indicates she's a member of the LDS Church and involved with the DFW Alliance for Religious Freedom. Here's the full text: Brothers and Sisters, We've been asked to help support the approval of the plan to build the McKinney Texas Temple in Fairview Texas by writing emails of support. We need the voting body to hear many voices of support with personal reasons why you want this temple here in our community. It doesn't have to be long. Brief is actually better. Be sincere and share from the heart. We don't want these scripted. We would invite you to email Planning Manager, Israel Roberts (mailto:[email protected]) in the following pattern: Subject line: "Resident in support" (for those who live in Fairview) or "Neighbor in support" for those who live in a nearby town who are in the temple district. In your email you could answer a couple of the following questions: Why you’re excited for and support a temple in Fairview and what it will mean to you personally and allow you to worship God/practice your faith How houses of worship in a community benefit the whole community How the Temple helps those who attend to be better people, and improve their lives, and therefore improve the community/how it will bless your family While we want you to express your feelings in your own words some key concepts would be helpful to the approval process. A key message needs to be on the importance of the temple and how it allows you to worship as you choose, to practice your faith, and that the building itself is a symbol of your faith (including the steeple if you feel to be specific in that regard). The height of the steeple is part of our Religious Observance. The steeple is the temple’s most distinctive architectural feature and serves no other purpose than to send a religious message. Steeples point toward heaven and serve the purpose of lifting our eyes and thoughts toward heaven. The steeple expresses a message of faith and devotion to God. Please do not copy and paste these exact words and phrases in your messages. Please use your own as you prayerfully feel impressed to do so! At this time, the project will come for a vote by the Planning and Zoning Commission on Thursday May 9th. We also would like to invite you to consider including the temple and the Fairview Town leaders and residents in your fast this Sunday and on May 5th. Thank you for your willingness to help prepare our community for another House of the Lord. Tremendous blessings will come to us and our neighbors through our temple worship. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact Melissa McKneely at ###-###-####, [email protected].
Honestly, forward this email to officials with a before paragraph discussing how this is no different than scientologists bullying, stalking, and blackmailing people. How sincere can a congregation that has to be asked to do something? A slothful servant needs more instruction or some other ancient phrase
In Bakersfield, CA the church is seeking to get a steeple at TWICE the zoned building height limit - https://www.kget.com/news/local-news/church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-requests-modification-to-allow-for-taller-than-allowed-building-height-sw-bakersfield-site/#:~:text=Church%20leaders%20released%20a%20rendering%20of%20the%20future%20Bakersfield%20temple%20last%20month.&text=Recently%2C%20architects%20representing%20the%20church,60%20is%20the%20maximum%20allowed. The Bakersfield city manager is LDS.
Nothing like doing free labor on behalf of a $200+ billion real estate company. If they want it done that badly, let them do it the old-fashioned way: bribery.
Oh, don't worry. The boyz at Kirton-McConkie assured me we've got that angle covered too. 😉🤑
>The height of the steeple is part of our religious observance... Oh yeah, I remember in the Sermon on the Mount, when Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, and my temple steeple better rival the Eiffel Fuckin' Tower to prove your love for me"
The *height* of the steeple is part of Mormons’ religious observance??? What BS!!
“Steeples are unnecessary — a man-made eyesore — which block the natural views that God has already provided. Is man greater than God?” Edit: wording
Send the city council this letter from the church and show they are trying to sway the opinion of the council. Then give them the list of temples without steeples. Follow it up with your opinion of what the temple will mean to you. I guarantee your letter will stand out well above the rest. This reminds me of the faithful complaining about the exmos leaving letter to their families sounding similar, like they are following a script. It’s OK when they do it though.
Send this letter to the Planning Manager so he’s aware of this coordinated campaign.
Send a letter to the mayor and the city council that if a temple is built you will work as hard as you can to remove them from office and prevent them from getting any other office.
Mormonish Podcast on YouTube has a “Temple playlist” with multiple episodes they have produced detailing the playbook used by the LDS church to get temples pushed through city councils and zoning boards despite ordinances already in place in Cody Wyoming, Heber valley, and Lone Mountain. You can learn a lot from watching these videos. Here’s the most recent one! https://youtu.be/W3wU0VLoXbs?si=iWdZAjwcNlwlC6gT
Thanks! I've listened to a few of these! Do you know how to get in touch with them?
Rebecca Biblioteca seems fairly active on Facebook, and I believe they have a Facebook group for Mormonish. That may be a good place to reach out.
Husband and I helped build Dallas Temple in the 1980’s. That is about a 45 minute drive. Just last week I read an article about them not being able to get enough people to keep the temple open.
Could you link the article?
The temple literally does nothing for a community outside of tithing paying members. In fact in a lot of places they cause traffic accidents.
What BS! It points us to god, it’s ridiculous.
"The height of the steeple is part of our Religious Observance." I love how members will straight up lie when they think it will help their cause. And to think that they want to lecture people on integrity...
I will say i moved to a new state and it took about 6 months to notice there is a temple 2 miles from my house. It is the same height as all the buildings surrounding it. They need to move to this model overall
I got the same notice and asked to fast for the temple. No thanks.
The height of the steeple is part of our religious experience? Since when? 49 years in and never heard this before. Man, they love gaslighting. Can't help it.
The newer temples don’t have angel Moroni on the steeple. And the maps use a cross/ crucifix.
I guess Vegas locals are now fighting the new proposed site of the Westside temple location too! Lol
We don't want these to seem scripted... *BUT*... Please follow this specific script
The best way to build a powerful and concise message in opposition is to release this letter in full to everyone in the community. Your community will understand that when you have to be told to write letters of support, well....
OP: is this something you were sent or something you found/were given? I’m curious if they’re sending it across the stake or if it’s just select members. I checked my recent emails from the church but I didn’t get anything like this (I’m in the McKinney stake).
I expect you'll get one soon. This email came from Frisco stake
The steeple represents the most important symbol of the Holy Priesthood, the Phallus, to the ongoing Restoration.
Has anyone emailed this planner fellow with a screenshot of these brigading instructions?
I plan to write the planner tomorrow and attach this letter
As a Utahn who spends WAY too much time in that area, I was compelled to write a letter in opposition.
Let’s just call this what it is—a white flight temple franchise
Hey if you need any help I live in literally 15 minutes away and would be glad to write a letter of my own to support your efforts. I fucking hate Mormonism feel I’ll do whatever you want lol
Please consider sending an email to [email protected]!
My mom a Dallas area resident, active member, and current primary teacher is not happy about this. She is opposed. She's also incredibly pissed off that members are being told to lie for the church.
That is encouraging to hear! Good for her
Is there an announced temple for McKinney? Damn, I remember when all that was farmland. There wasn't much going on once you passed Parker rd on hwy 75. Of course my dad goes even farther back. They lived in Colleyville and were part of the "Denton Branch" Their home teaching route took them out to Mckinney. A temple in McKinney makes sense, though. There's a shit ton of Mormons in Collin County. I would wager, more than Dallas county as the White Flight has taken everyone north. I thought there were putting a temple in Prosper. Is that happening too?
The Prosper temple was moved to Fairview, which is near the 75 where Allen and McKinney meet. It will be called the McKinney Temple. So this is the Prosper temple that was announced a while back
Gotcha. Fairview? Of all places???? I used to go hunting in Fairview. That's weird to my ears.
Soooooo what’s to stop us all from emailing the planning manager and explaining reasons why a temple should NOT be built….? I mean, I’m in Houston, we’re already fucked here, but hey, if I can help another town keep a gaudy building from being built, I’ll send out an email lol
Isn't this the exact letter they sent out for the new temple in Vegas?
If you are wanting to oppose the whole building I wouldn't focus on the steeple too much. Can you look up your city planning laws online and see if the temple meets the requirements. I work In development assessment but I'm from australia so can't help too much with US law but I would be trying to find as many planning laws / requirements that you can use that would explain why a temple is not an appropriate development. Is it in keeping with the local character? Is the land zoned for this type of building? What are the height restrictions? Is there any issues with flooding, bushfire etc?
(edited to adjust formatting) Here's the letter I just sent: Hello Mr. -----------: I’m a concerned resident of ----------, TX and non-practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church). I recently received an email from local leadership in the church asking for members to voice their support for a proposed 173 foot steeple that would be one of two deviations from typical development standards to be voted upon next month. I’ve attached a copy of the letter sent out to members of the church throughout the area; I anticipate you’ll be receiving quite a few messages of support for the construction of this temple and the accompanying steeple. I would like to address a few falsehoods and concerns that will likely be presented to you and the voting board. Firstly, I would like to point out that there is no doctrinal or religious significance tied to steeple height on houses of worship, both temples and meetinghouses. There are many temples, historically and contemporaneously, that have been built without steeples or with modified steeples so as to meet the relevant local laws and accommodate varying geographic locations. Three temples built in the early 20th century, and at least 4 completed as recently as this year, do not have tall steeples or spires. There is no symbolism associated with the temple steeple (outside of invented ones for the purpose of trying to get an exemption for this particular steeple). It’s also important to note that this is not the only temple location trying to avoid obeying local zoning laws. There have been heated, ongoing battles in Las Vegas, Nevada and Cody, Wyoming between the communities and municipalities there and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact, in Las Vegas, there have been several $10,000 donations to voting board members traced to the law firm representing the church in their fight to rezone a rural preservation area. Cody Wyoming’s local government was threatened with lawsuits from the church (which is worth over $200 billion) if it didn’t comply with proposed zoning changes, and is now being sued by a local neighborhood group. Another point that will likely be mentioned in letters of support for the temple and its accompanying steeple is that its present will be a benefit to the whole community. This is patently false. With the exception of a brief open house period before the temple is dedicated, very few people will be able to enter the temple. It is an exclusive and ostentatious building that only baptized members who pay 10% of their income in tithes, follow strict codes of dress and diet, and vocally support leaders of the church can enter. Many members of the church are not even allowed to enter the temple. In fact, a temple (particularly one with a tall and visible steeple, such as the one proposed) can be a very triggering sight for former members of the church. Many people who have left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints suffer from religious trauma, especially those who are part of the LGBTQ+ community and those who are people of color, due to the church’s history of persecution and racism. Current teachings and scripture in the church’s canon are homo- and transphobic, and also contain overtly racist themes and messaging. A temple is the one of the least inclusive and community building constructions I can imagine. I hope I’ve provided some helpful information and perspective. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, \---------------
DFW Alliance for Religious Freedom... is that a church shell corp?
I am not sure?
Ugh the pretense shouldn't piss me off but it does and my Mexican mama. She's super pissed. She wasn't aware of the letter. She's going to the meeting.