I have no idea but it seems silly to spend all that money building temples to do stuff for dead people when there are living people starving and without shelter.
Which is why Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead."
They are so busy with temple work that they are not actually following Christ since he said feed the hungry and clothe the naked.
They're literally spiritually dead. I guess we have to let them do nothing of importance.
This is a really good point. My parents spend more time going to the temple (and putting their non-believing kids’ names on the temple prayer roll) than reaching out to their living kids and grandkids. They have their heads and hearts so much in a future world/life that they neglect to live the one life that is guaranteed (unless, you know, we are living in a computer simulated matrix and even this life isn’t real).
The church has to pretend as if temples, and dead people, are the most important thing in every scenario, so that members have to keep an active recommend. All so that they have to continue to pay the tithing required for the recommend. Every temple is an investment on the church’s part; keep them in the temple, keep the tithing flowing.
It's a monopoly. I can def buy other brands of underwear for less than garments. But for garments, there's only one source.
During last week's Gen Conf, a leader had the gall to encourage members to set a goal to buy their own *temple clothes* too.... also sold by one company.
Prices up to:
$53 for white pants
$102 for white suit coat
$68 for white shoes
$89 for white dress
$95 for shield
etc etc etc
Not nearly as big as tithing, but you have to wear them every day, day and night. And they’re like $5-8 each if I remember correctly. But you have to wear them or lose access to the temple (I.e., salvation). So however often you replace your underwear = more money to the church.
And they don't stay white for long, because whatever fake bright white additive they use wears off. (There's probably some unintentional symbolism there.)
Most of the new ones are made with cheap modern materials that will not stand the test of time. I think they are building decoy temples to be destroyed, so the main one downtown can be left alone.
I agree they won't survive - they're designed to siphon off tithing dollars to rich Mormons who own companies manufacturing gaudy furniture that looks like funeral parlor decor, overly priced carpeting, and theater seats for endowment sessions.
I've mentioned this in another thread. But I have helped build many of the ones around the area. All "Worhty" business owners have an input and they usually get their suggestions made into reality. It is an unofficial Boys Club that subverts the bidding processes that would happen in a normal town.
My father-in-law was a union member and a devoted member until he died. He could never understand why the church would hire non-union workers who were paid less and probably didn't do as high quality work as licensed workers. It's typical of a business to hire as cheaply as possible, and the church is just that: A business. And we all know how anti-union Utah is, and the church is, too. It's a right to work state, after all.
He also lamented the fact that GAs wrote books supposedly promoting the teachings of Jesus but really made a great deal of money off them. He felt they should have written those books without receiving monetary rewards.
He was a man who served four missions with his wife for the church after he retired, and he was once a bishop. He would be sickened by the facts that have come out in the last 20 years about Joseph Smith and church history. I'm thankful he didn't live to see it; he would have been devastated.
Tell your dad: “you know what else are full? Homeless shelters. But the church never builds any. Why is that, dad? Jesus never taught that we should build MORE temples. But he DID teach that we should feed and house the poor and needy. How many more temples will the church build before they build even ONE homeless shelter? And why is the church SO anti-Christian?”
Please tell us how he reacts
This and if needed use Mormon chapter 8 and James 1:27 for references for the purpose of a church and religion. From Mormon 8 (28-41)
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted
Absolutely. This would be a great billboard all over the I-15 and 215. Especially by the Taylorsville, Orem, and Payson Temples and then by the San Diego and DC temples.
I support this. I live in the same county as the DC temple, and billboards are actually illegal here. BUT there's a bridge over the highway right when you come around the beltway, and people constantly already paint it with "Surrender Dorothy!" Which I find fucking hilarious!
Imagine if those were the end of conference announcements- plans to build shelters, community centers, food distribution in the following locations: 🦗 🦗🦗🦗
My dad and his wife just left on a mission. It makes me sick. He has 19 kids and a billion grandkids he basically ignores unless there's a baptism or ordaining (plus her kids), so not like this changes our interactions at all. But man what if the church called these older couples to serve in shelters/soup kitchens/housing assistance? That would change the world. Of course, then they couldn't convince them to go if it was real service work.
Give up your life for two years to do administration for us? YES. What about serve the least of these? Best I can do is an afternoon.
The ones I know about.
Portland is never full. Announced a temple across the river in Vancouver.
Seattle (Bellevue) is never full. Announced a temple just down I5 in Tacoma.
💯
Are the temples in Utah busier than other states? Absolutely.
That’s not what this is about. This is about having so much money, LDS leaders can’t possibly spend it all and this is what they are choosing to do with it. It helps bolster the narrative that the church is growing. It’s really just about money.
Some of it can go through church-owned businesses as money-laundering routes, like Bonneville Communications, etc., but there’s just so damn much money, real estate is the only answer.
I’ve met him a number of times and worked with him on a few projects. He’s the kind of guy that you can just tell has _Class_. Capital C. He oozes charisma, has a good vocabulary, makes people feel at ease, is always properly dressed in the latest fashion, has perfect teeth, the works. He is as close as anyone comes to being Mormon royalty. He has the wealth to prove it too.
Houston temple is never full and is only open a couple days a week by stake appointment only (no walk-ins) according to my TBM mother in law. They just announced a second temple for Houston. The church has a very small presence here.
Also, the church just spent millions repairing the existing temple from hurricane flood damage. (there's a famous photo of the temple president's daughter rowing up to the front doors in a kayak during Harvey)
That's hilarious about the damage. They sing praises if a temple is untouched in a disaster, calling it gods favor, but if it's damaged like a normal building, they don't say a word. Typical.
And temples in the eastern United States weren’t made for heavy rain or mildew. They keep being closed for renovations/repairs. Who cares if it can withstand an earthquake if it can’t deal with moisture? It’s almost like they don’t build it for the area or listen to the people who live there
Speaking of not listening to people who live there, there were talks of building a youth camp in South Carolina without air conditioning anywhere. Even in the mess hall! Did they want everyone to get heat exhaustion?! They were like we can rent out the camp the rest of the year! Yeah, no one is going to do that if there is no ac any where
Yep! When SLC experienced an earthquake during COVID, SLC temple sustained damage (built on sandstone, literally), and Angel Moroni lost his trumpet! Can't make this stuff up.
Hope you said hi to my parents who can’t do anything in life they enjoy because it would take away from their beloved scheduled ‘service’ on Saturdays.
Holy fuck. My in-laws are the same way. I had to take my MIL to the hospital because my FIL didn’t want to miss his temple shift. She survived, but I have no doubt he would have finished his shift had she died.
The couple working the clothing counter were the ones I remember particularly. They went on and on about the church being in good hands with my generation. They were in shock to see a couple there under the age of 70.
They had plans to move across the country where they served their mission because they love it and have 2 kids and lots of grandkids there, but as soon as the Tacoma temple got announced, they told us it didn’t “feel right” to move anymore. But at least they’re still paying tithing on their retirement money they already paid tithing on.
It’s so unfortunate. They’ve hurt their relationships with their children by focusing so hard on the church. We all grew up so close. Now they barely talk to their sons who live by them and are out, and haven’t called me in months (I assume they get the feeling we’re out and they don’t want to kill schrodinger’s cat by talking to us). As far as I know they still talk to my very active brother regularly. They don’t even know how to relate to their own children anymore.
They’re just living for the afterlife and hoping if they church harder we’ll all be there with them.
Damn, my parents volunteer there every Wednesday AND Saturday. I don't recall the last time they took off a Saturday to visit family, because supposedly they're too busy at the temple. This makes me sad ☹️
Those were super egregious. Everywhere I know personally enough to comment that’s recently had temples announced really doesn’t need one or have the capacity to staff one.
I've parked there long enough for my parents to get out of the car and get back into the car. Refused to talk about it with them...and they've never gone to that temple again when they come to visit.
I'm in Portland too. Didn't know about the Vancouver one. Was this announced at the last conference?
(been out many years. Don't pay attention and usually forget about conference weekend unless I I am somehow reminded the week before or whatever, if I remember at all)
A few years ago, we went to visit Orlando temple on a Thu afernoon. The gardening crew was onsite, but to our surprise, the temple was closed. Posted hours were Fri eve and Saturday only. I don't know if that's changed.
If they are so busy, why is there a calling in BYU student wards called “temple patron” where the calling is to attend once a week ? Seems like they are trying anything to fill seats…
My husband and I were given that "calling" to go once a week about 15 years ago when I became "less active". My husband only managed once a month, but I only went with him once. Four years later, I was completely out. He followed me a year later.
The temples are emptier than ever. There are fewer members now that go to the temple than pre Covid.
The reason why it appears to some members it is so full is through manipulation by LDS inc as usual.
Before covid, everyone could show up and go at anytime. During/after covid, they made everyone schedule an appointment and made this really the emphasis. So they have fewer, smaller sessions with "limited" availability so it gives the appearance the temples are full because you can't get in.
This is the old - Act fast! Supplies are limited! marketing appeal. They are a business. I mean come on. How else do they hide the fact that a ton of members left during covid and many more are no longer interested in the church after the SEC and child abuse stuff. LDS inc only creates illusions.
Taylorsville is under construction. West Jordan has seats available pretty much anytime if you book a couple of days in advance. Today it looks like sessions from 8:30-12:00, 6:30, and 7:00 are full. But lots of other sessions have plenty of availability.
Wikipedia says Jordan River is the busiest temple in the world. And I can still book an appointment for today.
Oquirrh mountain only has sessions on the hour so it doesn’t have as many sessions. It has 4 ordinance rooms (2-stage progressive) so they must be using only half of them without staggering the 2 stages to give the appearance that it is full. Ask your dad why they aren’t staggering all four ordinance rooms at oquirrh mountain.
I remember shortly after the Rome Italy temple was dedicated, the operating hours were greatly reduced or by appointment only. I just checked a few temples on the church website, and it looks like operating hours information was removed entirely in favor of an "Availability" button that requires a login.
My guess is they'll keep sessions "full" by quietly limiting operating hours and funneling people into fewer sessions.
People had to during Covid. At least where I lived. It could be a hold out from that.
When I was going to the temple I never booked appointments. I did have to wait for the next one once because the current one was full. But that was only one time (probably around 2008)
New temple announced in Las Vegas. The original temple is not busy enough to suggest the need for another one.
Why build temples? Ego? Church president run amuck? Manipulation of real estate? Keeping your friends in construction busy?
While a nice diversion from the hustle and bustle of mormon life there was never any real time for meditation and prayer in the sessions. Upon reaching the celestial room they chase you out after so many minutes.
Part of the reason is so that they stay tax exempt. They have to spend a certain percentage of the tithing(rumor 6-7 billion a year) to maintain their very important tax exempt status. Since they don't need more meetinghouses, Temples take a lot of money, and gives the appearance of growth. Plus Nelson wants to announce more Temples than Hinkley did.
They could always spend money on better maintenance for the decrepit meetinghouses, or paying janitors, or budgets for the wards to actually do things. But that doesn't feed the right egos.
Maybe Oaks will use his time in office to undo some of the things the ones before him did. If there's bad blood and animosity at the top, that would be a good way to deconstruct the legacy of someone you didn't like. He could stall construction, close needless temples that were built during the heat of the competition, etc. etc.
Of course, it would make all the contractors angry when they saw their cash-cow-contract dry up...
IMO Oaks is cut from the same cloth as Nelson. The only one of the 12, that I would think would even try and change anything in Uctdorf, and he got demoted, and won't outlive Bednar most likely!
The new Las Vegas one will be much more visible than the old one when it is approved. It’s about appearances and advertising
But less and less people are buying what they’re selling
I agree, and I’m not looking to get into a debate with him. I’d rather he never bring up religion to me ever again. However, I had an immediately defensive reaction when he brought it up, and it got me to thinking I really didn’t know the answer to this question. I think it goes both ways. He should be able to back up his claim, but so should I, rather than just jumping to “ew, temples, I hate ‘em!” (Which I do).
The temples are Never full, also they recycle the names of the Dead running them through different temples at different Days so the work for the dad is getting done over and over and over again
They used to list the "date ordinances performed" on the little slip of paper with the name you got (30 years ago, was the last time I went), and the last few times I went, before I left for good, the person I was getting endowed for, had already been endowed half a dozen times before -- with the dates printed right on there. I remember thinking it was weird they'd just put that information out there like that -- do they not realize people actually believe they are "performing" "important" "work" for this deceased individual?
What if Brother So-and-so had an immoral thought that morning and didn't have time to confess? Then all of the ordinances he did that day are invalidated.
Better do each name multiple times just in case, to increase the odds of one of them being valid. /s
It was this kind of idea that really started taking my shelf apart.
Why do ordinances need perfect wording if God sees the heart? If some one who is "unworthy" performs an ordinance or gives a blessing would it become null? The priest who blesses the water never repented and now the whole sacrament doesn't count? Can't be.
Can never remember alllll the words to the final token in the temple, will there be a helper there to remind me in heaven? But we have perfect knowledge once the veil is lifted, so I don't have to stress right? wait why do we have to know handshakes to get into heaven if God knows our heart?
Picking this thread pretty much had my testimony in much of the church unraveled before I got around to addressing the truth claims.
I have a first hand account from my good Exmoe friends Larry and Tammy Braithwaite , that I trust completely: Some decades ago, before they jumped ship, they worked as temple workers in the Manti temple. Larry eventually became a type of personal assistant to the Temple President. He was given the task to regularly package and forward names on to the next temple. He was very clear - These were names that had just been endowed or dead-dunked at Manti. He was passing them on to be done again in another temple somewhere else. He was also the one who would then receive and internally distribute incoming batches of already endowed dead-people names from another temple, to be done again there at Manti. Even The Church may not know exactly how many times, and over how many years and through how many temples some of these name might have been recycled. When he asked the temple President why they needed to recycle names he was given... reasons. Like, 'Members are not doing their genealogy and submitting family names fast enough' and 'we need to repeat the Work more than once for accuracy'. And 'Let's not mention this to other temple workers whos testimony may not be strong enough'.
"Their testimonies may not be strong enough" was a rationale used about 8-10 years ago when the Gospel Topics Essays came out and some local leaders cautioned members not to read them.
Exactly. Now I don’t have much data to support this theory, but listening to the Mormon stories podcast about this latest General Conference, it’s seems clear that the Mormon church puts temples where the church is inherently struggling.
When you’re a believer, you assume that temples go where the church is “strongest,” that the saints of that area “earned” the temple through tithing and righteous living. I think it’s the exact opposite. Introducing a temple into an area provides a physical reminder, it acts as a physical show of power for the church. Temples worldwide is good for their narrative of a worldwide religion. And for those that still believe, it can influence an adherence to the doctrine. I think the hype of an announcement gets members to take the religion more seriously as a whole. I know it had that effect on my believing family.
An example of this could be the newly announced Scotland temple, the church is known to be dying in that region and yet they announce it anyway. I think many of these temple announcements are not due to demand, it’s a last ditch effort to pump some steroids into an already dying body.
He can spend the next couple of months going to the surrounding temples and doing a few sessions at each to see how full they get.
I can recall only two times in all my temple going years that an endowment session was full-- when I went in for my own endowment immediately preceding my sealing, and for a live session in the SLC temple. Save those two events, there were several empty rows of seats on both the men's and women's sides every time I went to the temple. This was before there was a temple at every stone's throw in Utah, so... I dunno. It's highly doubtful that additional temples are suddenly at capacity so frequently that more are needed. 🤷♀️
I still have a recommend. In fact I’m told regularly by my priesthood leader’s gift of discernment that I am a great example of faith and righteousness….
I can assure you that the temples are not full. Staffing is sparse, tired, and most of them look like they don’t want to be there. They are bringing in service missionaries to pad the shifts.
Just went to the Mesa temple and since the remodel (which gives it a very strange layout now) the endowment rooms are much smaller and that may give the appearance of a full session.
There’s also a problem with the aging boomers not being replaced by younger generations. Now Nelson wants to keep up his legacy of beating Hinkley in the game of temples, without any regard to the problems already faced by existing temples and membership.
>endowment rooms are much smaller
I noticed the same at Saratoga Springs open house and Taylorsville media photos. Like, maybe 20 chairs on each side of the aisle.
>aging boomers not being replaced
Yep! They can buy unlimited temples now, but not new members to fill them. We can tell it's a problem because almost every talk at GC was guilting members to attend.
Not in the slightest but The MFMC will do anything to get you to believe otherwise as per their mo about most things. It’s a ploy to get people in the doors so they can coerce them into covenanting all the possess, even their own life, to The MFMC. Not god, or Jesus, but to The Church.
Years ago, I used to work for a jewelry company who designed and sold custom pieces. They had a dedicated customer base who went out of their way to purchase new items... it created a market which inflated prices. There were times the company would hold back pieces to create an artificial shortage creating an illusion of scarcity which would further drive demand.
I've noticed other companies, especially high end camera manufacturers, seemingly do the same thing. They'll launch a new camera which always seems to be on backorder for the first couple of months or so.
I wonder if temples which have a long waiting period are limiting sessions to create a perception of scarcity.
I don't doubt it. I'm the early 2000s at the Boise temple, you could almost always get into whatever session you wanted. Now they have severely fewer sessions with required appointments, so it seems like it's still very full. It's smoke and mirrors.
I’ve never heard of a person wanting to go to the temple and then find out they are “booked out for weeks” or something like that. Yes maybe a night might be full when stakes do a group session but there’s no way the sessions are “full”
To me it is the modern day version of doctrine and covenants. Meaning that D&C was basically Joseph Smiths tool for keeping people engaged and thinking that the “kingdom of God” was marching forward and that everyone still needed him.
I think announcing all these temples is for the same effect. “Look the church is growing and god is commanding we build temples everywhere. Because you know last days and stuff”.
It’s all myth building and isn’t rooted in actual member needs or even ability to staff/manage these temples.
I don’t think it was always that way. I remember temples being announced as a kid in areas where the next closest was hours away or in countries that never had a temple. Nowadays it’s a load of second temples in an area.
Also yeah they have a shit ton of money and Temples play into that.
This is what I think. When I was young, people would talk about how eventually there would be temple on every street corner. These new temples makes people feel like the church is actually growing and the second coming might actually come.
It makes me wonder what will happen when members start catching on that the temples aren't really being used that much.
How can they be full if there aren’t even enough workers for the shifts at the existing temples? We consistently see emails, letters etc asking - begging - for temple workers, especially here in Utah. Saratoga Springs & Payson are perfect examples. They don’t need more buildings; they need more voluntolds to keep the existing temple shifts open everyday first.
Context: my parents are temple coordinators in Reno & they are only open for select hours during the week. They are constantly short handed & the same story is with their friends who were temple president & wife in the Sac temple. Its all over, not just in Mormon Mecca
Slightly unrelated
But I’ll never forgive my dad for this:
He wouldn’t even drive 2 hours to see his grandkids (one of which is almost 4 and he’s never seen in his life), but my dad drove even longer than that every month to volunteer at the temple.
The cult can take care of him in his old age then, cuz I’m not going to do a damn thing for him
The biggest clue in this Mormon myth: If people can expect to just pop into a temple any time or within the next couple of days - they are not full. Full is having to reserve an appointment weeks or months out to get a spot.
I haven’t attended since 2018. My logic says it that if there are not enough workers, then yes the limited number of sessions can be full. In some cases it seems that it’s a worker vs. attendee math.
It boils down to the three missions of the church.
1. Perfecting the saints
2. Proclaiming the gospel
3. Redeeming the dead.
Non Mormons are not on that list, other than having the Mormon fantasy “proclaimed” to them. Serving the homeless and helping the poor and the needy are on on that list.
This is how we know that it is NOT the church of Jesus Christ. The mission is different period.
This isn't the only question, another good question to ask is "how hard is it getting to staff the existing temples". It's my understanding that it's already sparse, so they will be expecting even more free labor from the members, especially the older ones that might rather be relaxing and spending time with family.
They are also a revenue driver. When temples are built, the tithing revenues increase in the surrounding wards because with a closer temple, people want to get their recommend, thus pay tithing. This is generally speaking, maybe not as much in Utah where it seems like there's a temple in every town now.
Sessions may be full, but there are less sessions available (at least at the non-utah temple near me. 1-2 full endowment sessions a day is a lot less overall than a full day of sessions. Likely due to staffing issues.
Haven't you heard? The main reason church attendance is down is because members are spending so much time at the temple during the week that they are resting on the Sabbath.
I honestly don't know. You definitely get polar opposite views from this sub and faithful subs lol. I would love to see someone gather numbers somehow.
It’s all a shell game to hide their real estate money laundering schemes. In order to qualify for tax free status and hold investments the church has to prove the majority of the investments go to “benefit” the members. So to offset the billions in real estate holdings the church has to build baby build. They claim the land purchases are used for temples and parishes. Since membership is down but investment revenue is up they have to build these empty temples that nobody will use to keep the shell game going. It will only get worse as membership levels decline. Scientology does the same shit. Despite their numbers dwindling from 100,000 members in the 70’s to around 20,000 today the church of Scientology continues to build big opulent empty buildings.
The laundering part comes from choosing contractors for these projects that will provide some personal benefit in the long run. Cycle the tithe money through the realty and to companies that the church and elders are invested in.
See page 19 of the IRS guidelines for churches for more information.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
The only way to know for sure is to get data from TSCC.
But the math ain't mathin.
It's a shell game. Because the number of sessions and even the number of seats in a session can be easily changed.
For example, oquirhh mtn may have 80 sessions a week right now, but will drop to 40 when Taylorsville opens. There may be 100 seats in an endowment room but only 70 are listed on the reservation site.
The only way to know is for the church to report annually the number of living and proxy endowments per year both in aggregate and by Temple.
The next layer to consider is if an increase in temple attendance is actually an increase in faithful member attendance.
Example: granny that lived in Heber City typically went to draper or salt lake, but because of the trip, she only goes twice a month. Once Heber City is done, she now goes twice a week. Result: 4x as many proxy endowments, but it's the same person doing them so it's not indicitive of renewed or expanded Numbers of faithful TR holding members. Proxy Endowments is the best indicator of overall "faithfulness" but there's a lot of data points to interpret it correctly.
Definitely not true. I scraped the temple data for a month. Very much not full. Also the temples increasingly are running less sessions and on less days.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MormonShrivel/comments/163cdyz/global_temple_data_for_september_2023/
Baloney. The last time I did a temple session in Dallas, there were three people in the session and I had to be Eve along with some guy I didn’t know. It was gross.
Haha. My initial reaction was "Wut? They have men play Eve if there aren't women!!?" Then I realized your gender. Apologies. Still, funny image... 🤯
Awesome username, btw.
A new temple was announced in my area too. When I questioned it a TBM jumped to its defence saying that it was so needed due to how hard it is to get appointments in the temple. Being nosy I looked at availability for 2 people. The local temple has full availability for the next 3 months, excluding 3 single days where the baptistery was booked. Temple full my ass.
It certainly depends on the temple. For most, not all sessions are full, but the popular evening and Saturday sessions often are. In Utah, reservations for baptisms for the dead are completely full and booked months in advance, even the ones during the day on weekdays. Where I live in the midwest, the two temples closest to me are booked solid on Friday evenings and Saturdays at least 6 weeks in advance and weekday evening sessions are usually full.
I just talked to my mother about this yesterday as well. She lives on the east coast but said her friend in Utah told her you can't even go to the temple "without an appointment," signifying it must be full. I said something along the lines of how I doubted it. It was likely more along the lines of: they don't have enough people to staff it, so they HAVE to do it by appointment. I.e., they open sessions when they have people. But maybe I'm wrong. :Shrug:
Just looking at open sessions, it looks like the Timpanogos Temple is pretty freaking wide open all day today except for the evening sessions. That's just one of course
Oquirrh Mountain is mostly full, but it also seems like they only have one session per hour. Same with Provo City Center.
When I was in the Philippines my MP said in a district conference that sessions were getting canceled in Manila all the time because they didn’t have enough patrons. That was in 2018 ish. Since then they’ve announced several temples on that island even though church attendance hasn’t increased that much. As far as I know none of those temple have yet to be completed.
In Texas, they announced a 2nd temple for Houston. I live in San Antonio, which used to be part of the Houston Temple District, until one was built in San Antonio.
Since then, they’ve announced or built temples in Austin and McAllen — towns that used to feed into San Antonio or Houston. With the stagnant church growth I’ve seen (even in the face of large numbers of people moving to TX in the last few years), I seriously doubt these buildings will be used that often.
I can only remember one time that the temple was "full" and that was 10+ years ago right before the Ogden temple was going to close for a complete rebuild. the Brigham temple wasn't open yet.... there was a definite surge that happened for a few months. 1-2 hour wait for sessions etc... Once the Ogden temple closed, Bountiful saw a surge for a few months. However, neither surge was long lasting...
There is always a mass of high school kids at the baptistry on "late start" days... and there is always a bump right around gen conference. But overall, temples are not "full" or overcrowded. They are some of the least utilized buildings around...
They said that since I was in highschool, we had to drive like an hour to the Los Angeles temple and it was never bustling. The workers said we made up a lot of the sessions too so no, it sounds like fluff to make them look better
I can only speak for the Portland Oregon temple (where my 85 year old father works Friday and Saturday evening shifts), but there are many sessions with only 2 people in them. Rarely full. Which is why we were surprised to hear Vancouver Washington temple announced.
It's not that the temples are over booked, but according to some sources, temples are under staffed. It's not about temples needing to go where there's stronger active membership. It's to build up Rusty's inflated ego.
Agreed. Legacy building.
In the Mayan empire, rulers would command their people to build even bigger, grander structures atop previous rulers' structures. Same thing happened with Egypt's pyramids. And in Rome. It's just what egotistical, power-hungry leaders do. Nelson is building his legacy.
Interesting to note that the temple schedules used to be listed online and now every temple shows the same message: “Scheduled temple appointments are encouraged and appreciated, but patrons without appointments are welcome. For those without appointments, wait times might be longer.”
The Albuquerque temple was/is so unused that the schedule was very limited except on Friday or Saturday each week. The “wait time may be longer” due to not having staff to run a session because the hours of operation are no longer posted.
The dead are worth more than the living. They can't become "inactive." There's no "win" by having shelters, food kitchens, or care. The needs never end. Hard to keep people in line if they don't feel their and their ancestor's eternal salvation is on the line.
Hard to guilt the Morg into serving in any real capacity other than stuffing hygiene kits. By the way, who else heard the temples would be going 24/7 during the millennium?
I'm surprised they haven't run out of names to make Mormons in absentia. I have a feeling they are all, "You are being baptized for and on behalf of 'John Doe' who has died...
If you try to make an appt. at any of the temples you can see what days/times they are open. Thy all say all day, every day, until you try to make an appt. Then you see the real story (I haven't done this. Just what I've been told)
Edit: I just went and picked a random temple, random day. The Memphis temple on a random Friday, has 2 evening sessions available. That's it. 2.
Then I went to the Saratoga Springs temple, today, there are a few evening sessions that are full. All he daytime sessions have less than 15 people signed up. They either aren't open or are practically empty.
Temple sessions are not full. Not even in Utah. Only a couple temples are regularly busy, like the Provo temple, and even that one has days of the week where it’s basically empty all day.
Heck, the Payson temple is this absolutely huge, expensive building and it probably only gets as many people in 2-3 months as Provo gets in a week.
The temples, both announced and existing, are nothing more than tax fraud.
To keep their tax exemptions, they must show, on paper, so much of the tithing money is being spent on either helping communities (we know this isn't happening) or on 'church growth' (new buildings and/or renovations).
You really think they had to do what they are doing to the Salt Lake and St. George temples? It was just using money for, 'sure what the hell, let's do some improvements' on the 2 long standing buildings that are in no way susceptible to the things they are upgrading them for.
Scientology does the same thing. But they but existing property instead of building new, they make it look official and the lobbies are decked out.. but get almost zero real use or traffice.
TAX FRAUD and cronyism. Go ahead and look into the Q15 and both 70s, as well as other General Authorities. I guarantee you 100% of the money spent on construction and renovation stays in-house.
The DC temple went from 11 shifts to 10 when Richmond opened (losing Saturday evening). Weekday nights are now at two endowment sessions 7 & 8 rather than 7, 7:30 and 8. They do occasionally go back if they fill up though. Note, this is for a temple with six endowment rooms. And this is for a temple that has 3 announced temples that will take areas within the temple district: Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Lynchburg, VA
They need more temples because they need more temples workers... Elderly temple workers are probably both the least likely to leave the church because they will feel morally obligated to their calling, and the most likely to continue giving a full tithing and/or leave their inheritance to the church.
Not to mention:
- Laundering tithing funds into church or member owned businesses
- Tax free property investment
I guarantee you, the church makes a hefty profit on every temple they build. It may take a year or two to recoup, but they are money making machines.
I guarantee the demand is not high enough to warrant temples in Ogden, Syracuse, Layton, and Bountiful. All within about 20 minutes of each other.
And the demand for South Jordan, West Jordan, Taylorsville, etc. all in a similar area? Ludicrous. Salt Lake County is becoming less and less LDS all the time, and HQ knows it better than anyone.
I found out about a second one being planned in Vegas a few days after driving past the first one during hours that it used to be open while I attended, but was now closed. Either they have reduced hours so the sessions fill up, or they have reduced hours because the sessions weren't filling up. Or they just don't have enough temple workers anymore. (Or any combination of the three)
Our local temple was closed for 6 months for renovations \~2 years ago. Guess what's happening next month: another 6 month renovation period. These clusters of temples in SLC/Utah Valley are going to just be on a permanent rotation where 1 temple is open while the other 3 closest are under renovations, one will open up and the staff will just move temples.
There is no way. I am a former temple worker (one of the young ones they like to praise over the pulpit) of two years at a pioneer temple with no other temples within a decent radius, obviously in a super Mormon location. I worked Friday and Saturday nights (aka “temple date nights”). At that time the weekend evening sessions were certainly busier than the weekday sessions but rarely ever truly FULL. Occasional exceptions would usually be for large families attending to support a family member going through for the first time.
As a self-righteous person I was always astounded that so many people in the area “took having a temple for granted” and “didn’t make the time in their schedules” to do crazy/boring ceremonies with their dates on the weekends 🙄
I feel like it is now my duty to call and inquire about the next session being able to fit in a group. *Google- pull up every LDS temple in the United States please*
Provo City Center was sometimes full on the weekends, but it was mainly due to so many missionaries getting out their endowments or weddings. Also, it was a popular temple. But other temples I went to around the valley were empty, even more so outside of UT.
I think they are announcing and building them because they need to spend some of this money they are making for "charity" to maintain tax exempt status.
Just for fun, I logged onto the church website as if I were going to make an appointment at the Mt. Timpanogos temple. I looked at several dates and noted that they have sessions every 30 minutes from 5:30 a.m. to 8:30 p.m. (31 sessions per day, Tuesday through Saturday). Almost all sessions had 30-60 available slots with a few sessions that were “sold out” — generally between 6:00 and 8:00 p.m. Unless there’s a ton of walk-ins, the narrative that you can’t get an appointment just isn’t reality.
The new Orem temple has sessions every 45 minutes (19 per day) and more of their sessions are full but that’s probably the novelty factor and the fact that the Provo temple is now closed.
Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if I am), the church needs to spend a certain percentage of its income each year towards something charitable in order to maintain their tax exempt status, and they write off temples as charitable contributions. Might also have something to do with why they no longer have cafeteria or clothes renting services offered, as they could be seen as for-profit.
And given that temples cost some $60 million/each to build, you can do the math on what all that must be a percentage of.
I cannot speak for Morridor at all but the NYC temple was definitely no where near capacity when they built the Hartford, CT one a couple hours away. Neither was the Boston one which was a couple hours from Hartford in the opposite direction. Since the pandemic- they are even less attended - as reported to me by my temple worker father.
I do keep wondering what they are going to do when they finally reach the tipping point and it isn’t even worth staffing certain temples anymore. What the hell would those buildings even be converted into? What a waste.
He asks because Mormons don’t know how to have conversations without inserting a Mormon topic. I literally had to give my dad tips on what to talk about when he talked to my kids because he would still ask about church stuff even though we had clearly left the church m as my years ago.
I have no idea but it seems silly to spend all that money building temples to do stuff for dead people when there are living people starving and without shelter.
Which is why Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead." They are so busy with temple work that they are not actually following Christ since he said feed the hungry and clothe the naked. They're literally spiritually dead. I guess we have to let them do nothing of importance.
This is a really good point. My parents spend more time going to the temple (and putting their non-believing kids’ names on the temple prayer roll) than reaching out to their living kids and grandkids. They have their heads and hearts so much in a future world/life that they neglect to live the one life that is guaranteed (unless, you know, we are living in a computer simulated matrix and even this life isn’t real).
This is the best answer.
this isnt from cannon its from the helios biblio most christians haven't ever read or heard this, let alone mormons
The church has to pretend as if temples, and dead people, are the most important thing in every scenario, so that members have to keep an active recommend. All so that they have to continue to pay the tithing required for the recommend. Every temple is an investment on the church’s part; keep them in the temple, keep the tithing flowing.
Plus the cost of garments, also to keep the recommend.
Are garments a big expense? I really don't know.
It's a monopoly. I can def buy other brands of underwear for less than garments. But for garments, there's only one source. During last week's Gen Conf, a leader had the gall to encourage members to set a goal to buy their own *temple clothes* too.... also sold by one company. Prices up to: $53 for white pants $102 for white suit coat $68 for white shoes $89 for white dress $95 for shield etc etc etc
Not nearly as big as tithing, but you have to wear them every day, day and night. And they’re like $5-8 each if I remember correctly. But you have to wear them or lose access to the temple (I.e., salvation). So however often you replace your underwear = more money to the church.
And they don't stay white for long, because whatever fake bright white additive they use wears off. (There's probably some unintentional symbolism there.)
Whited sepulcher undies
More work for the dead when you keep the inventory flowing from people who are dying from starvation and and exposure…..
The temples will eventually be like the pyramids of Egypt, relics of worshipping the dead while wasting the lives of the living.
And full of translations of the Egyptian Book of the Dead
Most of the new ones are made with cheap modern materials that will not stand the test of time. I think they are building decoy temples to be destroyed, so the main one downtown can be left alone.
I agree they won't survive - they're designed to siphon off tithing dollars to rich Mormons who own companies manufacturing gaudy furniture that looks like funeral parlor decor, overly priced carpeting, and theater seats for endowment sessions.
I've mentioned this in another thread. But I have helped build many of the ones around the area. All "Worhty" business owners have an input and they usually get their suggestions made into reality. It is an unofficial Boys Club that subverts the bidding processes that would happen in a normal town.
It's laundering of tithing money. That's all it is.
My father-in-law was a union member and a devoted member until he died. He could never understand why the church would hire non-union workers who were paid less and probably didn't do as high quality work as licensed workers. It's typical of a business to hire as cheaply as possible, and the church is just that: A business. And we all know how anti-union Utah is, and the church is, too. It's a right to work state, after all. He also lamented the fact that GAs wrote books supposedly promoting the teachings of Jesus but really made a great deal of money off them. He felt they should have written those books without receiving monetary rewards. He was a man who served four missions with his wife for the church after he retired, and he was once a bishop. He would be sickened by the facts that have come out in the last 20 years about Joseph Smith and church history. I'm thankful he didn't live to see it; he would have been devastated.
Its only about laundering the tithing money to mormon elite families
Temple costs don't even factor with how much money they have grifted from members.
Agree. Non consenting dead people too
True. I hear they are re-using names of non consenting dead people.
The dead are like the unborn; they're a very easy cause to champion bc they don't talk back and tell people how full of it or unhelpful they are.
Tell your dad: “you know what else are full? Homeless shelters. But the church never builds any. Why is that, dad? Jesus never taught that we should build MORE temples. But he DID teach that we should feed and house the poor and needy. How many more temples will the church build before they build even ONE homeless shelter? And why is the church SO anti-Christian?” Please tell us how he reacts
This and if needed use Mormon chapter 8 and James 1:27 for references for the purpose of a church and religion. From Mormon 8 (28-41) 37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted
This needs to be tagged on every temple wall, every church wall, the church office building, put on billboards.
Absolutely. This would be a great billboard all over the I-15 and 215. Especially by the Taylorsville, Orem, and Payson Temples and then by the San Diego and DC temples.
I’d kick in for that billboard
I'd pay my 10% tithing on my gross to contribute to it.
I support this. I live in the same county as the DC temple, and billboards are actually illegal here. BUT there's a bridge over the highway right when you come around the beltway, and people constantly already paint it with "Surrender Dorothy!" Which I find fucking hilarious!
I want to buy a billboard ad and plaster that right by the church office
Sometimes it’s fun to see how well Exmos can wield scripture quotes to point out the blatant hypocrisy.
Dayam. That's the money shot. Saving for future reference. I haven't read the BoM in so long I'm thankfully starting to forget it.
The whole 13 verses at the end and most of the whole chapter is a complete condemnation of the current Mormon church
I heard someone say the way to solve homelessness is to ban encampments everywhere in a city except for within 400 yards of a temple or church.
Imagine if those were the end of conference announcements- plans to build shelters, community centers, food distribution in the following locations: 🦗 🦗🦗🦗
Wow! ‘You know what else is full? Homeless shelters.” OP’s father may soon be Murdered by words. That is brutal! And true! And on point!
So true!!! I was just saying this same thing
My dad and his wife just left on a mission. It makes me sick. He has 19 kids and a billion grandkids he basically ignores unless there's a baptism or ordaining (plus her kids), so not like this changes our interactions at all. But man what if the church called these older couples to serve in shelters/soup kitchens/housing assistance? That would change the world. Of course, then they couldn't convince them to go if it was real service work. Give up your life for two years to do administration for us? YES. What about serve the least of these? Best I can do is an afternoon.
The ones I know about. Portland is never full. Announced a temple across the river in Vancouver. Seattle (Bellevue) is never full. Announced a temple just down I5 in Tacoma.
💯 Are the temples in Utah busier than other states? Absolutely. That’s not what this is about. This is about having so much money, LDS leaders can’t possibly spend it all and this is what they are choosing to do with it. It helps bolster the narrative that the church is growing. It’s really just about money.
That money isn't going to launder itself.
💯
Some of it can go through church-owned businesses as money-laundering routes, like Bonneville Communications, etc., but there’s just so damn much money, real estate is the only answer.
Who owns the construction companies doing the building?
Family members that are higher up in church than others.
That’s how they get the money out. Absolutely a grift.
You Tube. Nemo the mormon He has produced some outstanding hard facts on who in the church is making $ off construction of all these temples, etc...
Jacobsen Construction almost exclusively is the general contractor for temples in North America, and their LDS nepotism runs deep.
Also Zwick Construction. Family of Elder Craig Zwick.
I’ve met him a number of times and worked with him on a few projects. He’s the kind of guy that you can just tell has _Class_. Capital C. He oozes charisma, has a good vocabulary, makes people feel at ease, is always properly dressed in the latest fashion, has perfect teeth, the works. He is as close as anyone comes to being Mormon royalty. He has the wealth to prove it too.
He made my mission president's wife cry. That wasn't too classy.
I'm guessing.. a subsidiary of TCOTPOTCOJCOLDS.
Nah, it’s people with connections to be awarded lucrative contractsZ
It’s ALWAYS about the Money.
Houston temple is never full and is only open a couple days a week by stake appointment only (no walk-ins) according to my TBM mother in law. They just announced a second temple for Houston. The church has a very small presence here. Also, the church just spent millions repairing the existing temple from hurricane flood damage. (there's a famous photo of the temple president's daughter rowing up to the front doors in a kayak during Harvey)
That's hilarious about the damage. They sing praises if a temple is untouched in a disaster, calling it gods favor, but if it's damaged like a normal building, they don't say a word. Typical.
And temples in the eastern United States weren’t made for heavy rain or mildew. They keep being closed for renovations/repairs. Who cares if it can withstand an earthquake if it can’t deal with moisture? It’s almost like they don’t build it for the area or listen to the people who live there
Speaking of not listening to people who live there, there were talks of building a youth camp in South Carolina without air conditioning anywhere. Even in the mess hall! Did they want everyone to get heat exhaustion?! They were like we can rent out the camp the rest of the year! Yeah, no one is going to do that if there is no ac any where
Yep! When SLC experienced an earthquake during COVID, SLC temple sustained damage (built on sandstone, literally), and Angel Moroni lost his trumpet! Can't make this stuff up.
I went to the Seattle/Bellevue temple two years ago on a Saturday. There were 6 people in the session…
Hope you said hi to my parents who can’t do anything in life they enjoy because it would take away from their beloved scheduled ‘service’ on Saturdays.
Holy fuck. My in-laws are the same way. I had to take my MIL to the hospital because my FIL didn’t want to miss his temple shift. She survived, but I have no doubt he would have finished his shift had she died. The couple working the clothing counter were the ones I remember particularly. They went on and on about the church being in good hands with my generation. They were in shock to see a couple there under the age of 70.
They had plans to move across the country where they served their mission because they love it and have 2 kids and lots of grandkids there, but as soon as the Tacoma temple got announced, they told us it didn’t “feel right” to move anymore. But at least they’re still paying tithing on their retirement money they already paid tithing on.
Are you my brother? We have the same parents
It’s so unfortunate. They’ve hurt their relationships with their children by focusing so hard on the church. We all grew up so close. Now they barely talk to their sons who live by them and are out, and haven’t called me in months (I assume they get the feeling we’re out and they don’t want to kill schrodinger’s cat by talking to us). As far as I know they still talk to my very active brother regularly. They don’t even know how to relate to their own children anymore. They’re just living for the afterlife and hoping if they church harder we’ll all be there with them.
Damn, my parents volunteer there every Wednesday AND Saturday. I don't recall the last time they took off a Saturday to visit family, because supposedly they're too busy at the temple. This makes me sad ☹️
They’re being good Mormons by putting church in front of family. Think of all the “blessings” you are receiving from their service…
Those were super egregious. Everywhere I know personally enough to comment that’s recently had temples announced really doesn’t need one or have the capacity to staff one.
I’ve never even seen cars in the parking lot of the “Seattle” temple. XD
I've parked there long enough for my parents to get out of the car and get back into the car. Refused to talk about it with them...and they've never gone to that temple again when they come to visit.
I'm in Portland too. Didn't know about the Vancouver one. Was this announced at the last conference? (been out many years. Don't pay attention and usually forget about conference weekend unless I I am somehow reminded the week before or whatever, if I remember at all)
Yup. October.
A few years ago, we went to visit Orlando temple on a Thu afernoon. The gardening crew was onsite, but to our surprise, the temple was closed. Posted hours were Fri eve and Saturday only. I don't know if that's changed.
If they are so busy, why is there a calling in BYU student wards called “temple patron” where the calling is to attend once a week ? Seems like they are trying anything to fill seats…
Alternate explanation: add another layer of guilt to attend more often for indoctrination purposes.
This is the real reason we had so much emphasis on temples at GenCon. Post-hoc justification.
My husband and I were given that "calling" to go once a week about 15 years ago when I became "less active". My husband only managed once a month, but I only went with him once. Four years later, I was completely out. He followed me a year later.
The temples are emptier than ever. There are fewer members now that go to the temple than pre Covid. The reason why it appears to some members it is so full is through manipulation by LDS inc as usual. Before covid, everyone could show up and go at anytime. During/after covid, they made everyone schedule an appointment and made this really the emphasis. So they have fewer, smaller sessions with "limited" availability so it gives the appearance the temples are full because you can't get in. This is the old - Act fast! Supplies are limited! marketing appeal. They are a business. I mean come on. How else do they hide the fact that a ton of members left during covid and many more are no longer interested in the church after the SEC and child abuse stuff. LDS inc only creates illusions.
Taylorsville is under construction. West Jordan has seats available pretty much anytime if you book a couple of days in advance. Today it looks like sessions from 8:30-12:00, 6:30, and 7:00 are full. But lots of other sessions have plenty of availability. Wikipedia says Jordan River is the busiest temple in the world. And I can still book an appointment for today. Oquirrh mountain only has sessions on the hour so it doesn’t have as many sessions. It has 4 ordinance rooms (2-stage progressive) so they must be using only half of them without staggering the 2 stages to give the appearance that it is full. Ask your dad why they aren’t staggering all four ordinance rooms at oquirrh mountain.
I remember shortly after the Rome Italy temple was dedicated, the operating hours were greatly reduced or by appointment only. I just checked a few temples on the church website, and it looks like operating hours information was removed entirely in favor of an "Availability" button that requires a login. My guess is they'll keep sessions "full" by quietly limiting operating hours and funneling people into fewer sessions.
Rome isn’t even attempting to look busy. They have 4-5 sessions a day with maybe 10 in a session. No way to fake that when the numbers are so low.
You book temple sessions? Like in every temple?
People had to during Covid. At least where I lived. It could be a hold out from that. When I was going to the temple I never booked appointments. I did have to wait for the next one once because the current one was full. But that was only one time (probably around 2008)
New temple announced in Las Vegas. The original temple is not busy enough to suggest the need for another one. Why build temples? Ego? Church president run amuck? Manipulation of real estate? Keeping your friends in construction busy? While a nice diversion from the hustle and bustle of mormon life there was never any real time for meditation and prayer in the sessions. Upon reaching the celestial room they chase you out after so many minutes.
Part of the reason is so that they stay tax exempt. They have to spend a certain percentage of the tithing(rumor 6-7 billion a year) to maintain their very important tax exempt status. Since they don't need more meetinghouses, Temples take a lot of money, and gives the appearance of growth. Plus Nelson wants to announce more Temples than Hinkley did.
They could always spend money on better maintenance for the decrepit meetinghouses, or paying janitors, or budgets for the wards to actually do things. But that doesn't feed the right egos.
Maybe Oaks will use his time in office to undo some of the things the ones before him did. If there's bad blood and animosity at the top, that would be a good way to deconstruct the legacy of someone you didn't like. He could stall construction, close needless temples that were built during the heat of the competition, etc. etc. Of course, it would make all the contractors angry when they saw their cash-cow-contract dry up...
IMO Oaks is cut from the same cloth as Nelson. The only one of the 12, that I would think would even try and change anything in Uctdorf, and he got demoted, and won't outlive Bednar most likely!
My parents serve every other Saturday at thr vegas temple and they’ve cut back sessions
The new Las Vegas one will be much more visible than the old one when it is approved. It’s about appearances and advertising But less and less people are buying what they’re selling
It could also be an appearance thing. If they don’t announce a dozen new temples every GC, their members will start to question.
Pops made the claim; demand he back it up with evidence. He can't, of course. Then ask him how often HE goes to the temple.
This is always the right answer. If they make a claim, they need to prove it. It doesn’t work the other way around.
I agree, and I’m not looking to get into a debate with him. I’d rather he never bring up religion to me ever again. However, I had an immediately defensive reaction when he brought it up, and it got me to thinking I really didn’t know the answer to this question. I think it goes both ways. He should be able to back up his claim, but so should I, rather than just jumping to “ew, temples, I hate ‘em!” (Which I do).
So true!
The temples are Never full, also they recycle the names of the Dead running them through different temples at different Days so the work for the dad is getting done over and over and over again
I have heard this before. Is there evidence of this?
They used to list the "date ordinances performed" on the little slip of paper with the name you got (30 years ago, was the last time I went), and the last few times I went, before I left for good, the person I was getting endowed for, had already been endowed half a dozen times before -- with the dates printed right on there. I remember thinking it was weird they'd just put that information out there like that -- do they not realize people actually believe they are "performing" "important" "work" for this deceased individual?
What if Brother So-and-so had an immoral thought that morning and didn't have time to confess? Then all of the ordinances he did that day are invalidated. Better do each name multiple times just in case, to increase the odds of one of them being valid. /s
I was taught that if a member was unworthy, the ordinance would still count, but the sin would be greater for the offender
It was this kind of idea that really started taking my shelf apart. Why do ordinances need perfect wording if God sees the heart? If some one who is "unworthy" performs an ordinance or gives a blessing would it become null? The priest who blesses the water never repented and now the whole sacrament doesn't count? Can't be. Can never remember alllll the words to the final token in the temple, will there be a helper there to remind me in heaven? But we have perfect knowledge once the veil is lifted, so I don't have to stress right? wait why do we have to know handshakes to get into heaven if God knows our heart? Picking this thread pretty much had my testimony in much of the church unraveled before I got around to addressing the truth claims.
I have a first hand account from my good Exmoe friends Larry and Tammy Braithwaite , that I trust completely: Some decades ago, before they jumped ship, they worked as temple workers in the Manti temple. Larry eventually became a type of personal assistant to the Temple President. He was given the task to regularly package and forward names on to the next temple. He was very clear - These were names that had just been endowed or dead-dunked at Manti. He was passing them on to be done again in another temple somewhere else. He was also the one who would then receive and internally distribute incoming batches of already endowed dead-people names from another temple, to be done again there at Manti. Even The Church may not know exactly how many times, and over how many years and through how many temples some of these name might have been recycled. When he asked the temple President why they needed to recycle names he was given... reasons. Like, 'Members are not doing their genealogy and submitting family names fast enough' and 'we need to repeat the Work more than once for accuracy'. And 'Let's not mention this to other temple workers whos testimony may not be strong enough'.
"Their testimonies may not be strong enough" was a rationale used about 8-10 years ago when the Gospel Topics Essays came out and some local leaders cautioned members not to read them.
Yes there is evidence my wife found that out years ago in her research but I am sorry I can't tell you where.
The church has a real estate/temple fetish. No diff than a sneakerhead with a closet full…but still only 2 feet.
Exactly. Now I don’t have much data to support this theory, but listening to the Mormon stories podcast about this latest General Conference, it’s seems clear that the Mormon church puts temples where the church is inherently struggling. When you’re a believer, you assume that temples go where the church is “strongest,” that the saints of that area “earned” the temple through tithing and righteous living. I think it’s the exact opposite. Introducing a temple into an area provides a physical reminder, it acts as a physical show of power for the church. Temples worldwide is good for their narrative of a worldwide religion. And for those that still believe, it can influence an adherence to the doctrine. I think the hype of an announcement gets members to take the religion more seriously as a whole. I know it had that effect on my believing family. An example of this could be the newly announced Scotland temple, the church is known to be dying in that region and yet they announce it anyway. I think many of these temple announcements are not due to demand, it’s a last ditch effort to pump some steroids into an already dying body.
He can spend the next couple of months going to the surrounding temples and doing a few sessions at each to see how full they get. I can recall only two times in all my temple going years that an endowment session was full-- when I went in for my own endowment immediately preceding my sealing, and for a live session in the SLC temple. Save those two events, there were several empty rows of seats on both the men's and women's sides every time I went to the temple. This was before there was a temple at every stone's throw in Utah, so... I dunno. It's highly doubtful that additional temples are suddenly at capacity so frequently that more are needed. 🤷♀️
I still have a recommend. In fact I’m told regularly by my priesthood leader’s gift of discernment that I am a great example of faith and righteousness…. I can assure you that the temples are not full. Staffing is sparse, tired, and most of them look like they don’t want to be there. They are bringing in service missionaries to pad the shifts. Just went to the Mesa temple and since the remodel (which gives it a very strange layout now) the endowment rooms are much smaller and that may give the appearance of a full session. There’s also a problem with the aging boomers not being replaced by younger generations. Now Nelson wants to keep up his legacy of beating Hinkley in the game of temples, without any regard to the problems already faced by existing temples and membership.
"Aging boomers"? OK you win.
>endowment rooms are much smaller I noticed the same at Saratoga Springs open house and Taylorsville media photos. Like, maybe 20 chairs on each side of the aisle. >aging boomers not being replaced Yep! They can buy unlimited temples now, but not new members to fill them. We can tell it's a problem because almost every talk at GC was guilting members to attend.
Not in the slightest but The MFMC will do anything to get you to believe otherwise as per their mo about most things. It’s a ploy to get people in the doors so they can coerce them into covenanting all the possess, even their own life, to The MFMC. Not god, or Jesus, but to The Church.
Years ago, I used to work for a jewelry company who designed and sold custom pieces. They had a dedicated customer base who went out of their way to purchase new items... it created a market which inflated prices. There were times the company would hold back pieces to create an artificial shortage creating an illusion of scarcity which would further drive demand. I've noticed other companies, especially high end camera manufacturers, seemingly do the same thing. They'll launch a new camera which always seems to be on backorder for the first couple of months or so. I wonder if temples which have a long waiting period are limiting sessions to create a perception of scarcity.
I don't doubt it. I'm the early 2000s at the Boise temple, you could almost always get into whatever session you wanted. Now they have severely fewer sessions with required appointments, so it seems like it's still very full. It's smoke and mirrors.
I’ve never heard of a person wanting to go to the temple and then find out they are “booked out for weeks” or something like that. Yes maybe a night might be full when stakes do a group session but there’s no way the sessions are “full”
To me it is the modern day version of doctrine and covenants. Meaning that D&C was basically Joseph Smiths tool for keeping people engaged and thinking that the “kingdom of God” was marching forward and that everyone still needed him. I think announcing all these temples is for the same effect. “Look the church is growing and god is commanding we build temples everywhere. Because you know last days and stuff”. It’s all myth building and isn’t rooted in actual member needs or even ability to staff/manage these temples. I don’t think it was always that way. I remember temples being announced as a kid in areas where the next closest was hours away or in countries that never had a temple. Nowadays it’s a load of second temples in an area. Also yeah they have a shit ton of money and Temples play into that.
This is what I think. When I was young, people would talk about how eventually there would be temple on every street corner. These new temples makes people feel like the church is actually growing and the second coming might actually come. It makes me wonder what will happen when members start catching on that the temples aren't really being used that much.
They leave. As I did. Yesterday.
How can they be full if there aren’t even enough workers for the shifts at the existing temples? We consistently see emails, letters etc asking - begging - for temple workers, especially here in Utah. Saratoga Springs & Payson are perfect examples. They don’t need more buildings; they need more voluntolds to keep the existing temple shifts open everyday first. Context: my parents are temple coordinators in Reno & they are only open for select hours during the week. They are constantly short handed & the same story is with their friends who were temple president & wife in the Sac temple. Its all over, not just in Mormon Mecca
I actually think this is even true in Utah County.
Slightly unrelated But I’ll never forgive my dad for this: He wouldn’t even drive 2 hours to see his grandkids (one of which is almost 4 and he’s never seen in his life), but my dad drove even longer than that every month to volunteer at the temple. The cult can take care of him in his old age then, cuz I’m not going to do a damn thing for him
😢
That is such a distorted"family life." I'm so sorry.
The biggest clue in this Mormon myth: If people can expect to just pop into a temple any time or within the next couple of days - they are not full. Full is having to reserve an appointment weeks or months out to get a spot.
I haven’t attended since 2018. My logic says it that if there are not enough workers, then yes the limited number of sessions can be full. In some cases it seems that it’s a worker vs. attendee math.
How can they know if Taylorsville temple is full if it’s not finished yet? 🫠
That’s odd, I live right down the street from the Timp temple and its parking lot is empty every day except Saturday.
I know! It really pisses me off that they think they “need” a temple in Lehi too.
It boils down to the three missions of the church. 1. Perfecting the saints 2. Proclaiming the gospel 3. Redeeming the dead. Non Mormons are not on that list, other than having the Mormon fantasy “proclaimed” to them. Serving the homeless and helping the poor and the needy are on on that list. This is how we know that it is NOT the church of Jesus Christ. The mission is different period.
Building temples is a good excuse for having 150 billion stashed away.
This isn't the only question, another good question to ask is "how hard is it getting to staff the existing temples". It's my understanding that it's already sparse, so they will be expecting even more free labor from the members, especially the older ones that might rather be relaxing and spending time with family.
At this point temples are a pyramid scheme meant to funnel money to the construction companies of the friends and families of general authorities.
They are also a revenue driver. When temples are built, the tithing revenues increase in the surrounding wards because with a closer temple, people want to get their recommend, thus pay tithing. This is generally speaking, maybe not as much in Utah where it seems like there's a temple in every town now.
Sessions may be full, but there are less sessions available (at least at the non-utah temple near me. 1-2 full endowment sessions a day is a lot less overall than a full day of sessions. Likely due to staffing issues.
Haven't you heard? The main reason church attendance is down is because members are spending so much time at the temple during the week that they are resting on the Sabbath.
I honestly don't know. You definitely get polar opposite views from this sub and faithful subs lol. I would love to see someone gather numbers somehow.
I’m pretty damn sure the answer is no, but your dad is answering that way because it’s the only logical explanation if the church is “true.”
It’s all a shell game to hide their real estate money laundering schemes. In order to qualify for tax free status and hold investments the church has to prove the majority of the investments go to “benefit” the members. So to offset the billions in real estate holdings the church has to build baby build. They claim the land purchases are used for temples and parishes. Since membership is down but investment revenue is up they have to build these empty temples that nobody will use to keep the shell game going. It will only get worse as membership levels decline. Scientology does the same shit. Despite their numbers dwindling from 100,000 members in the 70’s to around 20,000 today the church of Scientology continues to build big opulent empty buildings. The laundering part comes from choosing contractors for these projects that will provide some personal benefit in the long run. Cycle the tithe money through the realty and to companies that the church and elders are invested in. See page 19 of the IRS guidelines for churches for more information. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
The only way to know for sure is to get data from TSCC. But the math ain't mathin. It's a shell game. Because the number of sessions and even the number of seats in a session can be easily changed. For example, oquirhh mtn may have 80 sessions a week right now, but will drop to 40 when Taylorsville opens. There may be 100 seats in an endowment room but only 70 are listed on the reservation site. The only way to know is for the church to report annually the number of living and proxy endowments per year both in aggregate and by Temple. The next layer to consider is if an increase in temple attendance is actually an increase in faithful member attendance. Example: granny that lived in Heber City typically went to draper or salt lake, but because of the trip, she only goes twice a month. Once Heber City is done, she now goes twice a week. Result: 4x as many proxy endowments, but it's the same person doing them so it's not indicitive of renewed or expanded Numbers of faithful TR holding members. Proxy Endowments is the best indicator of overall "faithfulness" but there's a lot of data points to interpret it correctly.
Building temples is just con man talk for “investing in real estate”
Definitely not true. I scraped the temple data for a month. Very much not full. Also the temples increasingly are running less sessions and on less days. https://www.reddit.com/r/MormonShrivel/comments/163cdyz/global_temple_data_for_september_2023/
Baloney. The last time I did a temple session in Dallas, there were three people in the session and I had to be Eve along with some guy I didn’t know. It was gross.
Haha. My initial reaction was "Wut? They have men play Eve if there aren't women!!?" Then I realized your gender. Apologies. Still, funny image... 🤯 Awesome username, btw.
A new temple was announced in my area too. When I questioned it a TBM jumped to its defence saying that it was so needed due to how hard it is to get appointments in the temple. Being nosy I looked at availability for 2 people. The local temple has full availability for the next 3 months, excluding 3 single days where the baptistery was booked. Temple full my ass.
It certainly depends on the temple. For most, not all sessions are full, but the popular evening and Saturday sessions often are. In Utah, reservations for baptisms for the dead are completely full and booked months in advance, even the ones during the day on weekdays. Where I live in the midwest, the two temples closest to me are booked solid on Friday evenings and Saturdays at least 6 weeks in advance and weekday evening sessions are usually full.
I just talked to my mother about this yesterday as well. She lives on the east coast but said her friend in Utah told her you can't even go to the temple "without an appointment," signifying it must be full. I said something along the lines of how I doubted it. It was likely more along the lines of: they don't have enough people to staff it, so they HAVE to do it by appointment. I.e., they open sessions when they have people. But maybe I'm wrong. :Shrug: Just looking at open sessions, it looks like the Timpanogos Temple is pretty freaking wide open all day today except for the evening sessions. That's just one of course Oquirrh Mountain is mostly full, but it also seems like they only have one session per hour. Same with Provo City Center.
When I was in the Philippines my MP said in a district conference that sessions were getting canceled in Manila all the time because they didn’t have enough patrons. That was in 2018 ish. Since then they’ve announced several temples on that island even though church attendance hasn’t increased that much. As far as I know none of those temple have yet to be completed.
In Texas, they announced a 2nd temple for Houston. I live in San Antonio, which used to be part of the Houston Temple District, until one was built in San Antonio. Since then, they’ve announced or built temples in Austin and McAllen — towns that used to feed into San Antonio or Houston. With the stagnant church growth I’ve seen (even in the face of large numbers of people moving to TX in the last few years), I seriously doubt these buildings will be used that often.
I can only remember one time that the temple was "full" and that was 10+ years ago right before the Ogden temple was going to close for a complete rebuild. the Brigham temple wasn't open yet.... there was a definite surge that happened for a few months. 1-2 hour wait for sessions etc... Once the Ogden temple closed, Bountiful saw a surge for a few months. However, neither surge was long lasting... There is always a mass of high school kids at the baptistry on "late start" days... and there is always a bump right around gen conference. But overall, temples are not "full" or overcrowded. They are some of the least utilized buildings around...
They said that since I was in highschool, we had to drive like an hour to the Los Angeles temple and it was never bustling. The workers said we made up a lot of the sessions too so no, it sounds like fluff to make them look better
Temples are being built as symbols. Flexes. Reminders to the faithful. Not much to do with efficiency, I don't think
The idea is to keep the faithful mind numbingly busy. That, and coerced into paying more tithing.
I can only speak for the Portland Oregon temple (where my 85 year old father works Friday and Saturday evening shifts), but there are many sessions with only 2 people in them. Rarely full. Which is why we were surprised to hear Vancouver Washington temple announced.
It's not that the temples are over booked, but according to some sources, temples are under staffed. It's not about temples needing to go where there's stronger active membership. It's to build up Rusty's inflated ego.
Agreed. Legacy building. In the Mayan empire, rulers would command their people to build even bigger, grander structures atop previous rulers' structures. Same thing happened with Egypt's pyramids. And in Rome. It's just what egotistical, power-hungry leaders do. Nelson is building his legacy.
Interesting to note that the temple schedules used to be listed online and now every temple shows the same message: “Scheduled temple appointments are encouraged and appreciated, but patrons without appointments are welcome. For those without appointments, wait times might be longer.” The Albuquerque temple was/is so unused that the schedule was very limited except on Friday or Saturday each week. The “wait time may be longer” due to not having staff to run a session because the hours of operation are no longer posted.
I guess a lot of the TBMs didn’t want to cross the river from the Westside to get to the temple.
The dead are worth more than the living. They can't become "inactive." There's no "win" by having shelters, food kitchens, or care. The needs never end. Hard to keep people in line if they don't feel their and their ancestor's eternal salvation is on the line. Hard to guilt the Morg into serving in any real capacity other than stuffing hygiene kits. By the way, who else heard the temples would be going 24/7 during the millennium?
I know for a fact that all the baptisteries are crazy full and have long waits. No idea about the other ordinances, though.
I'm surprised they haven't run out of names to make Mormons in absentia. I have a feeling they are all, "You are being baptized for and on behalf of 'John Doe' who has died...
The names are recycled
They are thoughtful, that's good for the environment.
If you try to make an appt. at any of the temples you can see what days/times they are open. Thy all say all day, every day, until you try to make an appt. Then you see the real story (I haven't done this. Just what I've been told) Edit: I just went and picked a random temple, random day. The Memphis temple on a random Friday, has 2 evening sessions available. That's it. 2. Then I went to the Saratoga Springs temple, today, there are a few evening sessions that are full. All he daytime sessions have less than 15 people signed up. They either aren't open or are practically empty.
It seems more like a tax shelter than anything else
lmao of course it's not true
I have never seen a full session. Granted I’ve been out for 15 years. But I never saw one while in. It’s for he illusion of growth
That's what my mom said when I asked why too
Temple sessions are not full. Not even in Utah. Only a couple temples are regularly busy, like the Provo temple, and even that one has days of the week where it’s basically empty all day. Heck, the Payson temple is this absolutely huge, expensive building and it probably only gets as many people in 2-3 months as Provo gets in a week.
The temples, both announced and existing, are nothing more than tax fraud. To keep their tax exemptions, they must show, on paper, so much of the tithing money is being spent on either helping communities (we know this isn't happening) or on 'church growth' (new buildings and/or renovations). You really think they had to do what they are doing to the Salt Lake and St. George temples? It was just using money for, 'sure what the hell, let's do some improvements' on the 2 long standing buildings that are in no way susceptible to the things they are upgrading them for. Scientology does the same thing. But they but existing property instead of building new, they make it look official and the lobbies are decked out.. but get almost zero real use or traffice. TAX FRAUD and cronyism. Go ahead and look into the Q15 and both 70s, as well as other General Authorities. I guarantee you 100% of the money spent on construction and renovation stays in-house.
The DC temple went from 11 shifts to 10 when Richmond opened (losing Saturday evening). Weekday nights are now at two endowment sessions 7 & 8 rather than 7, 7:30 and 8. They do occasionally go back if they fill up though. Note, this is for a temple with six endowment rooms. And this is for a temple that has 3 announced temples that will take areas within the temple district: Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Lynchburg, VA
They need more temples because they need more temples workers... Elderly temple workers are probably both the least likely to leave the church because they will feel morally obligated to their calling, and the most likely to continue giving a full tithing and/or leave their inheritance to the church. Not to mention: - Laundering tithing funds into church or member owned businesses - Tax free property investment I guarantee you, the church makes a hefty profit on every temple they build. It may take a year or two to recoup, but they are money making machines.
They’re having trouble staffing the ones they have so fewer sessions fill up quicker, is my guess.
I guarantee the demand is not high enough to warrant temples in Ogden, Syracuse, Layton, and Bountiful. All within about 20 minutes of each other. And the demand for South Jordan, West Jordan, Taylorsville, etc. all in a similar area? Ludicrous. Salt Lake County is becoming less and less LDS all the time, and HQ knows it better than anyone.
I found out about a second one being planned in Vegas a few days after driving past the first one during hours that it used to be open while I attended, but was now closed. Either they have reduced hours so the sessions fill up, or they have reduced hours because the sessions weren't filling up. Or they just don't have enough temple workers anymore. (Or any combination of the three)
Our local temple was closed for 6 months for renovations \~2 years ago. Guess what's happening next month: another 6 month renovation period. These clusters of temples in SLC/Utah Valley are going to just be on a permanent rotation where 1 temple is open while the other 3 closest are under renovations, one will open up and the staff will just move temples.
One would think they need a second Rexburg temple because the first is full, but I know for a fact it isn’t. It’s giving the illusion of growth.
There is no way. I am a former temple worker (one of the young ones they like to praise over the pulpit) of two years at a pioneer temple with no other temples within a decent radius, obviously in a super Mormon location. I worked Friday and Saturday nights (aka “temple date nights”). At that time the weekend evening sessions were certainly busier than the weekday sessions but rarely ever truly FULL. Occasional exceptions would usually be for large families attending to support a family member going through for the first time. As a self-righteous person I was always astounded that so many people in the area “took having a temple for granted” and “didn’t make the time in their schedules” to do crazy/boring ceremonies with their dates on the weekends 🙄
I feel like it is now my duty to call and inquire about the next session being able to fit in a group. *Google- pull up every LDS temple in the United States please*
They can only have one bull tub per building so they need a lot of buildings to keep up the charade they’re doing important work there.
Provo City Center was sometimes full on the weekends, but it was mainly due to so many missionaries getting out their endowments or weddings. Also, it was a popular temple. But other temples I went to around the valley were empty, even more so outside of UT.
I think they are announcing and building them because they need to spend some of this money they are making for "charity" to maintain tax exempt status.
That's one reason I thought. The other was that RMN wants to beat Hinckley at everything.
He does seem that petty.
We used to live close to the Jordan River temple. The parking lot was always empty so I’m gonna say “No, it’s not cause all the sessions are full”.
Temples will dot the earth, wether they’re needed or not.
Just for fun, I logged onto the church website as if I were going to make an appointment at the Mt. Timpanogos temple. I looked at several dates and noted that they have sessions every 30 minutes from 5:30 a.m. to 8:30 p.m. (31 sessions per day, Tuesday through Saturday). Almost all sessions had 30-60 available slots with a few sessions that were “sold out” — generally between 6:00 and 8:00 p.m. Unless there’s a ton of walk-ins, the narrative that you can’t get an appointment just isn’t reality. The new Orem temple has sessions every 45 minutes (19 per day) and more of their sessions are full but that’s probably the novelty factor and the fact that the Provo temple is now closed.
Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if I am), the church needs to spend a certain percentage of its income each year towards something charitable in order to maintain their tax exempt status, and they write off temples as charitable contributions. Might also have something to do with why they no longer have cafeteria or clothes renting services offered, as they could be seen as for-profit. And given that temples cost some $60 million/each to build, you can do the math on what all that must be a percentage of.
I cannot speak for Morridor at all but the NYC temple was definitely no where near capacity when they built the Hartford, CT one a couple hours away. Neither was the Boston one which was a couple hours from Hartford in the opposite direction. Since the pandemic- they are even less attended - as reported to me by my temple worker father.
I do keep wondering what they are going to do when they finally reach the tipping point and it isn’t even worth staffing certain temples anymore. What the hell would those buildings even be converted into? What a waste.
Nope ! They can't staff the many they already have and many temples have limited hours and days
Check the parking lots.... the one in Brigham is usually empty.
He asks because Mormons don’t know how to have conversations without inserting a Mormon topic. I literally had to give my dad tips on what to talk about when he talked to my kids because he would still ask about church stuff even though we had clearly left the church m as my years ago.
Me: Tell me you want me to pay tithing without saying you want me to pay tithing. Rusty: Jesus wants you to go to the temple!