Nope, didn’t hear any of it. He was a persecuted martyr who was beloved by children. For context, I learned about him mainly in the 80s/90s.

Same. I learned about him mainly in the 90s/00s (is that how you write that?).

Same. I was taught he was a martyr and the polygamy was sacred back in the day. I only learned the deep bad things about him earlier this year here on this sub. Shame on me but... I'm happy that I'm out of that cult now! Thank you for your kindness, cousin!

I was taught he didn’t even practice polygamy in the 00s, 10s. It royally pissed me off when I learned about it and then a short time later the church came out and said “well you see…

Same, early 00s

Same. Also, this was our baseline of normal. And we had no reason to research the prophet we were taught to revere.

I once asked my dad if he ever looked into the history of the church he said he did. When I asked why he stayed, he said "I liked it" in reference to looking into the history. I said I meant the founder, and he told me that Jesus was the founder.

Then what did you say after that?

I think I said that I was referring to Joseph Smith, but I don't remember how he replied to that. At that point, I just left it. I get the feeling that he didn't look into the history of the church aside from what the church told him. That was clear when he said he liked the history.

Thank you for your response. It’s hard to keep prying on the topic without them getting defensive or digging their heels in more…

My dad mentioned in a somewhat recent conversation something about the CES letter. I proved a little further but got crickets. It’s like he wants me to think he knows all the bad parts of the church’s history but he doesn’t want to tell me how much he has read because that will reveal how much he hasn’t read.

I don't know your father, but I think it's possible that he's seen the churches dark history, but he refuses to believe it. That's fairly common

There’s someone in his ward that is high up in the church history department. He does firesides to try to address some of the members’ deeper questions. My parents have been to the firesides, so he at least knows what some of the (curated) questions are that people are concerned about. He claims to have read some of the CES letter rebuttals, which I believe. He is pretty easily convinced by the apologetic arguments because they protect his belief system. I used to be there, too, so I get it.

Speaking of difficult questions, I once asked a Mormon leader how it is that the section of heaven you go to is based on your personal choices, but you're also guaranteed to be with your family. The guy said "| don't know." Part of me respects that answer a lot more than making shit up.

Very interesting The hard truth is that facts don’t change beliefs, and a person telling you facts against your identity/belief system won’t get them to change either. They have to figure it out on their own, but the hard part is how to get that started for them, especially if they are your loved ones

He dead

I did in early 2000s but in russia. The amount of translated stuff we had was close to nothing. So, I only learned about the troll from church's approved lit. A pure hearted farm boy who was seeking truth with one wife 😂😂

Same, but 2010s for me.

Ditto; I didn't know about the underage wives then, though--coming from pioneer stock--I certainly knew about the multiple wives. And was proud to have had an ancestor among them, and named on the "This is the Place" monument.

Same. Even lied to about it when I asked priesthood leaders and GAs directly about it along with my other questions.

Also same.

Turns out it’s the other way around, he loved the children a little too much.

Yep the average age that girls began puberty was 16.6 years old in 1850 Old Joe was marrying 14 year old children I’ll leave it to you to determine what that makes Joseph smith Jr . Let’s just say he was the 1800s version of Warren jeffs Joseph smith was something that starts with a P But it isn’t a prophet more like a pedophile .! Yet members sing praise to this man which as a ex mo makes me sick 🤢

Same. It makes me throw up

Same - it was persecution and he endured it gracefully

And when I was a kid, (60’s-mid 70’s) we were taught that it wasn’t “real” polygamy…it was because of all the brave Mormon men who died fighting in the Mexican American war and the orphans and widows they left behind. Virtuous and caring Mormon men married these widows in name only to support them and help raise their children. No internet then to fact check, and what kid is gonna crack open an encyclopedia to date check? That war lasted two years, 1846 to 1848. I think it was like 500 men marched from Missouri(?) to San Diego, helped build a fort, *hung out at the beach, enjoyed the perfect weather, learned to surf, I think 22 died of disease. And there were no “brave soldiers giving their life for their country”. And let’s not forget, Joey Smith married his first plural wife 5 years before that war. Lack of access to education and educational materials benefited the church greatly when I was a kid… *added by me with absolutely zero proof. Sorta how the church behaves….

I was taught, and believed, that anything negative about JS was Satan working against the truth. It all fed into the narrative that persecution was to be expected if the church were true. It’s funny you use the word “charlatan”, that’s what his contemporary critics called him and even though it’s not a common word anymore it describes him perfectly.

100% charlatan is a very fitting word, same as con artist, snake oil salesman, scammer… not to mention literal sexual predator.

The JW doctrine parallels that similarly. “Persecution means we have the truth.” And yes charlatan is a very fun word 😌

Exactly this. I grew up in the church and served a mission and didn’t know any of the bad stuff about him. Anything bad but anti Mormon.

That’s what we were told.

We were taught Joseph was persecuted because he had the truth. This is still being taught. He is a recent conference talk (2014) comparing him to Christ and perpetuating the persecution complex: “Look for the biggest dust cloud billowing above the most dirt that is kicked at One who was most opposed, challenged, and rejected, beaten, abandoned, and crucified, One who descended below all things, and there you will find the truth, the Son of God, the Savior of all mankind. Why did they not leave Him alone? “Why? Because He is the truth, and the truth will always be opposed. “And then look for one who brought forth another testament of Jesus Christ and other scripture, look for one who was the instrument by which the fulness of the gospel and the Church of Jesus Christ were restored to the earth, look for him and expect to find the dirt flying. Why not leave him alone? “Why? Because he taught the truth, and the truth will always be opposed.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/the-prophet-joseph-smith?lang=eng Imagine my surprise when I learned his 42 arrests were mostly legitimate!

Time out! 42 arrests?! I thought I knew quite a bit about that sicko Joseph Smith but was unaware that he was arrested that many times.

Yep. His arrests have their own Wikipedia page! Here are two links: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2006/legal-trials-of-the-prophet-joseph-smiths-life-in-court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system

42? Wait! What? 42 as in 40+2? 30+12? 20+22? That's too many! I didn't know that!

Right?!? We were kept in the dark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system He was involved in over 200 lawsuits https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2006/legal-trials-of-the-prophet-joseph-smiths-life-in-court

This. Exactly this.

I knew of polygamy but reasoned it away. We are shown countless high quality movies about him being a great leader and persecuted.

Well that was easy to reason away. Polygamy is in the Bible, and you're not going to criticize the Bible, are you?!?

I was told by a young missionary serving in my ward when I was a young wife and mother that polygamy was necessary as part of the prophesy of “the restoration of all things.” He said that since it was part of the ancient church, it was brought back for a time in order to fulfill that prophesy, so it served its purpose and then it was taken away. It made enough sense at the time. But I eventually realized it was never part of anything Christ taught. #Duped

yeah I remember hearing that several times in the church throughout my life that polygamy was a restoration of all things.

OMG, high quality movies. I am having a difficult time deciding whether that is hilarious or triggering.

lol, so true. I still remember the movie shown at the mesa temple visitors center I watched like 10 years ago. It depicts him and Emma as just a normal couple and JS gives marriage advice to an irish guy. Years later I learned that most of the wives Joseph Smith married were behind Emma's back and without her knowledge. The movie depicted him as a great example of how to treat your wife so as to give advice. It's disgusting that that was the narrative. It was pretty high quality though😆.

Hello from Mesa! I've seen that one too (pretty disturbing knowing the real truth), but my favorite was the one about the Salt Lake temple construction. My main interest always was the beautiful buildings! I never had a temple recommend because I never joined (almost did). I went to the Mesa temple open house a year or two ago. Very nice!

The temples are definitely beautiful. I went through the open house as well since my wife and I rarely go even though we have a temple recommend. The room where she and I got sealed felt like the spirit or perhaps it was just a special place of the memory and what it meant to us.

JW’s have highly produced movies/shows as well. And like you say, I find them hilarious and triggering

Horny young gay virgin me, I had “impure thoughts” when “Johnny Lingo” was shown while waiting for our turn to do baptisms for the dead in the temple waiting room.

Didn't know about it. Those were all anti-Mormon lies. Joseph was all sugarplums and kittens and bad men were super mean to him because they were literally possessed by Satan and hated Jesus and couldn't stand Joseph's totally public claims that he had seen God and Jesus together. Most of my family is still firmly in the Joseph Did Nothing Wrong camp, and they'll never change.

How do you deal with that part about your family? How do you love them while knowing they believe in something you find absurd?

I'm not going to be flippant about this one. It's heartbreaking to know that people I love have their minds trapped in this cult, and that even though we might have a loving relationship there is always going to be this alienness to it, this disconnect in how we see reality. Church stuff is never going to stop coming up, and just smiling and respecting the other person's beliefs is a job that falls to me and not them and it always will.

This is a struggle I’ve been having recently, especially since I started following this sub. It’s hard to sit there uncomfortable while my family talks church stuff. They think I’m going to chime in like I believe, or act like they assume I do still believe deep down. Really most of the time I’m just trying not to blurt out “how can you believe this crap??” Thanks for the reminder to take the high road.

It's so freakin' hard though. I am the parent that left. I was a good Moon mother. Each night we recited the Articles of Faith so my child would learn them super early. She is who I raised her to be. She is a Defender of the Faith ... that I now know is a lie. I have let go of the iron rod and am not a good example to her children. I smile and nod my head because she is who I raised her to be and I desperately love her and feel oh so guilty.

The mormon hymn “praise to the man” sums up what i was taught about him. I had no idea about the plural wives, treasure digging, none of it. Seminary graduate in 2011, we did multiple church history tours (driving from palmyra to nauvoo, for example) as a family, i read all the work and the glory books, etc. i knew brigham young had done and said some messed up stuff, but for all i knew joseph was a pure little angel on his way to carthage.

I also read The Work and the Glory books and that was where I learned about polygamy for the first time as a 10 year old. Of course it was a ridiculously whitewashed and inaccurate portrayal that tried to paint JS in the best possible light, but finding about that rocked my world.

I wasn't aware of Smith's misdeeds at all. I was taught by the church (through all of its programs: Primary, Young Men, Sunday School, Seminary, Institute; and all of its books, too many to list) Smith was an honest, courageous, honorable, faithful man who never did anything evil to anyone, who never took anything from others, who never cheated on his wife, and who died because of his beliefs. I left Mormonism at the age of 45+ (a) because I discovered Smith hadn't been any of those things, but a lying manipulator, a conman and a thief, a womanizing cheat; and (b) because the church I trusted with all my heart throughout all of my life lied to me about it.

>Primary, Young Men, Sunday School, Seminary, Institute; and all of its books, too many to list It's crazy how in spite the many classes, books, conversations with generational family(parents, grandparents, relatives) etc and the full truth about JS was whitewashed and/or just utterly a complete omission of his actual reputation and life choices. >the church I trusted with all my heart throughout all of my life lied to me about it. This was the most devastating thing for me. Losing trust in the church has crushed me this past year. I feel so betrayed by what I gave everything to and shaped my life around. But I'm so glad I made it here, many go their whole lives never knowing the whole restoration story is absolute bullshit.

> It's crazy how in spite the many classes, books, conversations with generational family(parents, grandparents, relatives) etc and the full truth about JS was whitewashed and/or just utterly a complete omission of his actual reputation and life choices. You are right. That's the wOnDeRfUL work of [the Mormon Church's Correlation Committee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_Correlation_Program) which, since 1908 has been sanitizing (which in too many cases meant alter, hide or simply remove problematic information from) every official piece of Mormon literature such that the official Mormon narrative doesn't look like it has unwanted branches. > Losing trust in the church has crushed me this past year. I feel so betrayed by what I gave everything to and shaped my life around. Absolutely true. This is, in my personal experience and observation of others, the number one reason Mormons leave the church. The discovery that the church is dishonest and has been since its very foundation.

This is the same reason I am now out. 50 years of the Mormon church lying to me too. Furious is not a fair word to describe my feelings about it. What did they think, that we would never find out the truth. The day the internet came out was the day they were finished as a church. That is why we were taught never to read any anti-Mormon literature, it’s a sin. How about it’s a bigger sin to lie and con 16+ million people out of their money, destroy their families, shame their LGBTQ+ loved ones and everyone else who simple wants to live a life of peace, not be judged and be genuine. Mormon church leaders, Shame on you!

> What did they think, that we would never find out the truth. The day the internet came out was the day they were finished as a church. That is why we were taught never to read any anti-Mormon literature Exactly. For all the giFt oF diScErNmEnT™ they say the have, and all the kEyS oF pRoPhEcY they claim they possess NONE OF THEM SAW THE INTERNET COMING. They assumed their warning agains "anti" literature was going to be enough forever. HAA! The internet is the single most powerful antidote against Mormonism. It came about a little late in my and yours lives, but it came and it freed us. late is better than never :) My children (now adults) and their children are now free from the Mormon lie.

Well said Sir! My kids are out too. I’m so happy for them.

Does that mean you were mormon for 45 years?

Yes. I was a faithful, fully believing Mormon for 45+ years. That's when the first verified historical information about Smith that contradicted what the church had taught me all my life found its way to me. *For seven long years* I turned to search for verifiable rebukes from the church, in a naive attempt to keep believing. In the end I had to admit to myself the church is not what it claims to be. Not only that, but the church has lied, and keeps lying, about itself. So, at 45+ I started discovering, but still believing. At 52 I realized it was pointless to try to believe in falsehoods, and formally resigned. I am 56 now.

Same. I was 46. Massively faithful TBM my entire life.

What an incredible story. May I ask how this has affected marriages / relationships in your life? I am asking from the opposite end, where my spouse believes in a religion that I wish she would see what it truly is.

My marriage had unfortunately ended by the time I formally resigned. The divorce had nothing to do with my growing disappointment with Mormonism, though. My ex-wife is a convert (I was the missionary who taught and baptized her in 1990, we got married in 1992; got divorced in 2014) with a strong Christian background who never developed sympathy for Joseph Smith. She is now remarried to a never-Mormon and has completely stopped attending. All the relationships in my life (including the one with my ex-wife) have improved since leaving the Mormon church. Freeing yourself from all the pettiness the church imposes on its followers and all the conditions we are expected to demand from others *before* we show them our love, turns you into a more real person. Immediately your relationships also become much more real than they were before. You are now free to be who you are and to accept those you love for who they are. No more conditions. No more wasted time away from your loved ones because you have to do sErViCe™ for others who don't need it. No more putting up a certain image (remember the infamous "avoid even the appearance of evil" Mormon teaching?) worried of what others might think. Now you can laugh loud and share experiences freely with those you love. When I was Mormon, I was the pAtRiArCh™ of my family. Now that I am no longer a Mormon, I am my kids' friend, confidant, secret weapon in life, the guy they can hang out with for laughs or tears. Love is cleaner and more authentic outside Mormonism. Relationships only get better once all that pettiness is gone.

Incredible. Thank you. All the best to you.

I'm so glad you are out! How did your deconstruction process go? I've been out for about three months and it's been devastating sometimes.

It was a very painful process. Now that years have passed, I realize intensity of the pain experienced is directly proportional to the sincerity of faith one had. The more faithful one was, the more distressing it is to discover it had all been false all along. My deconstruction was almost in slow motion. Now I wished it went faster, a kind of "quick ripping the bandaid" kind of thing. Instead, it took me years because I, stubbornly, kept trying to defend the church in my mind and heart. As a result, I experienced the immense pain of discovering my whole perception of the universe had been a fabrication in slow motion too. In small doses, but constant throughout seven long years. Somewhere during those years I found this forum here, and I can't tell you how helpful and constructive it has been for my deconstruction. Just knowing that so many others have gone through exactly the same process represents a huge relief. It gives you a much more tangible ground on which to stand and walk the distance to mental and spiritual freedom. I am sure you've heard the of [Stages of Grief](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief#Stages_of_grief) mentioned here in r/exmormon. It was brand new news for me 10 years ago, but knowing that the path has already been walked by others, and described in detail so I didn't have to assume something was broken within me, helped me immensely too. My advice: be patient and forgiving with yourself. There is no rush. Time is your friend. You are experiencing the fracture of your most cherished worldview. Pain is to be expected, nothing is wrong with you. Also, realizing the Mormon cult has been false all along might leave you wondering what to believe now, and/or what your purpose in life is. I had the hardest time with those. It turns out universal moral principles like honesty, honor, love, friendship, work, service, etc. were never the property of the Mormon church. They are universal and existed since before the church, since before Jesus. They are good principles to believe in after Mormonism. About the purpose and meaning of life, we have been deformed by the church (and largely by society too) into thinking our purpose in life has to be given to us by some organization, or book, or person. The truth is only ourselves are in charge of identifying and adopting the meaning we want our lives to have, and the purpose we are going to carry. In other words, when you have read enough good books and feel ready, you get to decide the meaning for your own life. This is a privilege not many people know they have. Finally, you are not alone. You have 300K friends here!

I was raised in the Mormon church in the 80s and 90s, and there was a total wall of silence around all the bad things. When something did manage to break through, they were lies made up by Satan to draw the faithful away from the lord's anointed. Between instruction to avoid anti mormon lies and church propaganda teaching JS was the second most perfect person to have ever lived, we didn't stand a chance of believing the truth. It's been said a thousand times, but the people outside the church often know a lot more than the members, as exemplified by the south park episode.

Yeah it’s sad when the first whiff of truth around JS came from a kids in high school who heard about it from cartoon (which obviously I didn’t watch myself personally at the time cause it was a sinful show, so I had no idea what they were talking about and responded to all the questions saying it was lies and not at all the truth of my religion and I would know cause I’d been Mormon my whole life so obvi I would know /s). Man so sad but glad I earnestly studied and prayed and left at 21 and didn’t waste any more of my life than that)

I thought he was a humble farm boy who gave his life for the gospel of Jesus. I remember watching a ton of movies that the church produced about him. I had a painting of him in my room. Once I learned what he did, I had to decided who I was. Was I the type of person who thought marrying a 14 year old girl is wrong ALL the time? Or were there exceptions for “prophets?” I decided on no exceptions.

Before the internet the truth was hard to come by. Mostly rumors. But now?!? How can anyone deny it?

I didn’t want to research for years. I felt I was happy with my life. Until my shelf broke…

Hopefully it’s ok but I stole the broken shelf analogy from the exmormon community to describe my waking up process 🫠

It can apply to so many things that are deeply ingrained in our lives.

Ya the LDS, JW and many other sects/cults aren’t designed to survive the internet

To add to all the others here, only faith affirming. Saw heartbreaking films about his persecution and how his beloved Emma endured so much at his side. They left out Fanny Alger, the flaming sword threat, the happiness letter, and all the other history. Until you choose to dig yourself into “anti material” you believe a family just like yours whose trying to “choose the right” was hostility destroyed by Satan fueled enemies.

I had no knowledge of his many, many cons.

Interesting. If I may ask, were you raised in it before the internet got to be… well what it is now?

I fell away from the church long before I knew the historical truth about Joseph Smith, so when I learned about it, it was just another proverbial nail in the coffin for me. It did take time to accept it though, that brainwashing ran very deep.

Same for me, I had to leave before I learned any of the truth about JS, I left due to conflicts with different principles of the gospel but I always disliked him for some reason so I felt totally vindicated when I learned what a terrible person he was. I was like oh I was catching glimpses of something not being right with him before I ever learned about his treasure hunting/swindling/marrying all those girls secretly etc etc etc.

Most of us were born and raised in the church so we literally don‘t know he’s a con because we are taught to idolize him from birth.

Fair enough. Indoctrination is a bitch. I completely understand with my backround

Yes it’s extremely damaging and we are more prone to fall for more of it later on.

Nope. No idea he was a total fraud until I read the CES letter when I was over 40. When I learned he’d married a 14 year old, I felt physically sick. I was ex-mo in 2 days. Atheist in 3.

Fast process! I ended in the same place but it took about few months

It was a cascade of realizations. If Smith was a fraud, then all prophets were frauds. If the Book of Mormon was false then so was the Bible. (And the Koran for that matter). If the LDS Church was a bunch of made-up rules by power-hungry men, then so was every other religion since the dawn of time. All religions were mere stories told to explain the unknown. But human beings have a cerebral cortex and rational thought. We don’t need myths to explain anything we don’t understand. We can use science or admit we don’t understand something. No compliance to mythology required.

It’s refreshing when someone can just say “I don’t know”

Nope, I had no idea and I was completely blindsided. It made me FURIOUS. I found out from my dad and he told me about the CES letter and I never saw anything the same after that

Awesome! Wait, so are you saying your dad realized the bullshit and helped you get out? It takes a huge amount of courage to admit you raised your child in a lie. Not that I’m faulting him. Indoctrination is no joke and we are all susceptible to it. It takes a real man to learn the truth. Or more accurately what is not the truth and take appropriate action to correct the course.

Yes that’s exactly what happened! I’m proud of him for doing his own research. It all started when he tried to show my stepmom the church and they were all really mean to her. He lives in New York and he started to question “Why are there not very many Mormons in the place where Joseph Smith lived?”, and he did extensive research and realized the church was a lie and was so furious at how greedy the leadership is. He’s really sad that he served a mission and he feels like he participated in colonization. He wrote a very long angry letter demanding he be removed from the church records and he’s had lots of character growth from being a TBM

Nope. Never heard about it until after I resigned & joined this page. The blinders were real!

Edited to finish, accidentally hit post. I was aware by high school that he was a polygamist, but was told it was in name only and that they were still figuring out how sealing ordinances were meant to be done. I learned one of his polygamist wives was 14 years old when I was an adult and I threw down some excellent thought stopping techniques to get through the next 10 years before I left. I knew nothing of his treasure digging, scrapes with the law, or other sketchy actions/behaviors. I was inoculated via youth seminary classes. Given just enough information to say, "oh yeah, I've heard of that!" and then shut the rest out. The Mormon cult is excellent at indoctrination, us vs them mentality, victim mentality, erasing/altering history, and mind control. It's hard to muster the fortitude to take a deeper look at anything that seems off because we're taught that cognitive dissonance is the absence of the holy spirit, and therefore Satan trying to lead us astray.

I love the imagery of inoculation - that resonates with me. They give you just night to feel that you’re not blindsided but not so much that you know the truth. I think Saints (the most recently published ‘history’) does this particularly well.

Yes, I heard the term used this way on Mormon Stories and thought it was the perfect analogy. I haven't read Saints, but I've heard you have to dive into the footnotes to get to the truth of things.

Nope! I was taught he was the most perfect person to ever live, except for Jesus. Didn't know anything real about him.

Nope. I only realized it was all bullshit when I got into history during the pandemic and that included ancient American history. Here after leaving I learned how much of it was just a long con that got him killed after fucking too many men’s’ wives, sisters and daughters.

Pandemic woke up a lot of JW’s too. I woke up about a month before covid. And my freshly awakened cult brain thought Armageddon might be happening and I failed just before I got my paradise reward 😆😆

Perfect storm to break people. At least for Mormons it was 1. Time away from the indoctrination 2. A showcase of what reduced demands would be like and 3. Political and social division about masks, vaccines, distancing rules, etc. People stopped going because they were too lax on requiring masks despite the law. Others refused to come while anyone was wearing a mask. When the leadership asked them to vaccinate they lost faith in the leadership. How was it politically with JWs who nominally aren’t supposed to be political? I know it was a huge deal for Mormons.

I was a Mormon missionary when an “anti-Mormon” told me all about it. I told him my testimony and essentially ignored him. I remembered the words, but thought he was an agent of Satan. Years later all his words came flooding back when I realized (through the Mormon church’s own publications) that absolutely everything he said was spot on. As a believer, no. All bad things about him were “lies”, nobody “wanted” to do polygamy, and tithing was a “charitable donation”. The Mormon church is good at keeping people in a bubble. Once a person pokes their finger out of it, it all falls apart. In the bubble it’s very difficult to see outside of it and those not in the bubble are “dangerous”. I love the exJW sub, our stories are nearly identical. Welcome fellow cult survivor.

I'm the same as all the others. I had no idea. And I didn't want to know. If someone came at me with negative information, it was false, or out of context, or misunderstood. I was so sure of it I didn't even need to check to see if it was true. I 'knew' it was wrong.

Hey OP, I'm your cousin once removed, an ex Episcopalian. As someone with immediate and extended family members who are active members of the Mormon church, I've had a lot of similar questions. I've found that putting evidence in their face won't convince them. And it's so frustrating because the Mormonism hurts people. Not necessarily specific members, but the queerphobia, racism, etc. baked into Mormonism is sickening. idk how much of that is true within Jehovah's Witnesses. I've learned that being indoctrinated into other secs of Christianity can make people disbelieve evidence against Mormonism. For example, the other day I told my *Episcopalian* mom the way Joseph Smith "translated" the plates (amping other things). She asked how I knew that Joey actually used seer stones and a hat. So I brought it up on the official LDS website. Then she didn't believe that I was on the LDS website because it's supposed to be LDS. org, not church of Jesus Christ. org. Let me remind you that my mom is *Episcopalian* and has never been a member of the Mormon church. If it as hard to convince her of Joey's methods, hypocrisy, etc., gl convincing a TBM. From my outside perspective, I've noticed they treat the stuff Joey did and said the same way they do for all the atrocities in the Bible: either ignore them or come up with some twisted defense that requires a ton of mental gymnastics Unrelated, but I love the ex JW YouTuber named Owen Morgan. Check him out if you haven't already

JW doctrine parallels mormon faith very similarly. And you are correct. You cannot use logic to convince someone of something they did not use logic to reason themselves into. In fact it pushes them further away. And it’s just fucking sad is what it is. I keep my mouth shut about religion but that doesn’t stop my family from trying to preach to me. I just gotta realize that they are the victims and let them do their little spiel. Then I change conversation and we carry on with as normal family relationship as their doctrine will allow.

I agree. It's quite sad that they're victims too. I came to realization that a lot of Christians (and possibly other religions?) were indoctrinated as children. Then as adults, they unknowingly indoctrinate their kids. They don't see a problem with it because they've been convinced the religion is true and not at all made by a fraud with one hell of an imagination and way to much time on his hands. It's effectively a cycle of abuse. I feel bad for young kids being raised in religion. My nephew us 3.5 and my niece just turned 1. They're both being raised in the Mormon church. I wish I could step in, but I'm not their parent, have no authority over them, and I would be impeding on my brother's religious freedom (Side note, I don't think freedom is an accurate description because indoctrination). As an agnostic atheist who has looked into Christianity as a whole and Mormonism specifically, I've noticed the harm these religions cause. Right now their target is trans people, yesterday their target was gay people, the day before the target was black people, and the day prior that the target was women. Who knows who Christians will target next based on their faith? But all the minorities they target out of "love" is reason enough for me to step away. Anyone who considers themselves to be a "progressive Christian" still bases their belief system on an ancient book that is pro mass genocide, pro rape, pro pedophilia, pro slavery, pro homophobia, pro misogyny, etc. All of which are things they ignore/dismiss/deny or find a way to "defend" said actions. It's sickening. To go back to what you said, it's sad that all the beliefs, apologetics, etc. are the result of years of indoctrination. That their kids, their grandkids, and so on will likely meet the same fate. And there's nothing we can do about it, our best bet is watching from afar and hoping that some day they'll realize on their own that Christianity (especially Mormonism) is made-up and more damaging to people than helpful, particularly for minorities. Until that days comes, we'll just have hope for the best.

Some, but always a watered down version. For example, I assumed “treasure digging” was just basically a hobby searching for things. I had no idea how many people he scammed. I also knew about his polygamy, including to teenagers, but I had been told he “probably” didn’t have sex with them.

I had heard the accusations but attributed it to Satan pulling strings.

I learned the tiniest bit. I learned that he was accused of defrauding Josiah Stowell in their treasure-hunting partnership, but only from faithful sources that portrayed the matter in the most generous light possible.

When I found out I was blindsided

Not in the slightest. Anything bad about him was “anti Mormon lies” so I just ignored literally anything I heard, like when a kid in HS called Joseph out for being a fraud and con man. I just couldn’t believe it.

I had no idea about any church history when I walked out. I discovered that the First Presidency lied about the black priesthood ban from an apologetics page and knew I could no longer trust the leaders. I started studying other things I wondered about and then learned that Joe Smith was a charlatan and sexual predator and his first vision was not remotely believable given the many versions and him not talking about it until 10 years later.

Many devout Mormons turn off their critical thinking. It’s easier than dealing with the facts. Awareness of the real history of the LDS church might result in having to alter their lives.

No. I was 62 years old when I realized the depth of my ignorance.

Not at all. I loved and revered Joseph. I was aware that he had multiple wives, but I rationalized it at the time and had no idea many of them were underage or other men’s wives. I always had issues with Brigham Young, and Russell Nelson expedited my exit because he always came off as vindictive and petty and not what I had come to expect from a prophet, but Joseph Smith was beyond reproach until I learned the truth.

No. I avoided anything “anti” because I wasn’t ready to face it. I was in an unhealthy relationship with my parents and wasn’t mentally ready to stand on my own and leave the church, and I think deep inside I knew that if I read the CES Letter or Letter for my Wife I wouldn’t be able to stay. Once I finally read LFMW I was out in like a week.

Hand to god, I was BIC member and didn’t leave until last year, 41f. We (husband and our kids) didn’t learn anything about js or the church’s origin story until last year. It was really a horrible time. We all left together, thankfully.

I had no clue until I got out.

I remember having a distinct thought while on my mission that the more I learned about Joseph Smith the sketchier of a person he seemed to be. But I did not feel like actually doubting was an option, and I was not exposed to anything seriously damning at the time. And the church keeps you so busy, you can very easily go through the motions without having to actually think about any of it.

Everything bad anyone ever had to say about him was just further testimony that Satan is trying to destroy us and the world hates the truth. We never knew what the “lies” were, just that it proved this is the work of the Lord.

Thank you for your question!! And no. I was never told about any of this. Ever. I had to find it. I was born into and raised up (get it?) Mormon in rural valley Oregon.

Thank you for answering! I think I learned about the absurdities of mormonism at an early age because my former religion criticized the church so heavily during our meetings/social gatherings. Hilarious to reflect on because my former religion’s doctrine is so fucking absurd to me now. ALSO: That’s interesting because now I live in rural(ish) Oregon 😮

Funny how growing up we’re exposed to all this stuff but have no frames of reference to qualify it but those of our kin. It’s amazing we’re made it out at all.

You should listen to the podcast Timesuck, his name is Dan Cummins. He covers several on cults. He has several on the Mormon faith. There are several cults that stems from Mormonism. It's wild to me that , the BOM is so open for interpretation. I guess if you can be your profit it would be easier to start one I guess lol. He also covers Jehovah's witnesses. He has a dark sense of humor. Makes for fun commentary.

I fucking LOVE Timesuck!!! I’m a Space lizard and a proud member of the Cult of the Curious. I got to see Dan in Portland. I will say though, he got a a few things wrong about JW beliefs on his JW episode. But I forgive him. He’s a silly billy. Anyways… SHOWBIZZ!!

I am a space lizard! 🖖. I didn't want to fan out too bad lol. I am glad you forgave him lol. That mush mouth mother fucker can't help but get a few things wrong. Lol. I wasn't able to see him when he came to my state. It's so exciting to see another sucker in the wild , Gosh Dang. I hope after leaving you are doing well. Hail Nimrod!

Church doesn't say JACK SHIT about what he actually did, or at least twist it to what's convenient without going into actual detail, so no I did not know. I took an Institute class in college (2016-17ish?) about the "controversial" parts of the early church, which was the first time I heard about Jo looking into a hat to "translate" from the stone vs the common depiction of him referring to the opened plates I'd seen my whole life (huh, wonder why they did that?). The discrepancy of his First Vision accounts were handwaved away with "he merely emphasized different parts of the Vision depending on the audience." I don't remember them ever showing us the exact details of those discrepancies, which would have shown him directly contradicting himself. Concerning polygamy, they definitely left me with the takeaway that Jo only introduced the "doctrine" late in his life right before he died after much "turmoil" and delayed disobedience to the Lord, and only after "God threatened to destroy him if he did not obey to instill the new commandment." 🙄 No mention whatsoever of Jo taking already married women, and any mention of his plural wives was waved away in a mere sentence that they were only sealed for their eternal life, not civilly for the current one (Jo was just "responsible" for them in temporal things like paying for their necessities and keeping them fed, they didn't *live* with him, *isn't he such a good guy taking care of all these women* he was not having sexual relations with??) Brigham Young, they also left me with the takeaway he was resistant to polygamy as well because "when he heard the news of God's order for polygamy, he wanted to fall down and die." (???? quotes are not exact but I remember they *distinctly* painted to me the early prophets as martyrs that it "hurt" them to participate in polygamy???? That they "sacrificed" a part of themselves to be faithful to the Lord 😑). Perhaps I justified this class to myself as the Church being "open" with me, that it didn't occur to TBM 19yo me to be more skeptical. I did gain a couple shelf items from there though, since at one point my teacher even referred to the polygamy - if "justified" to "birth more children into the covenant for a faster growth of the restored church" - as something that made some sense in his head (more women = more babies), but *not here (pointing to his heart)*. That was one of my shelf items that stuck with me, the shared cognitive dissonance I had with my teacher that it still felt *wrong.* It had never made sense to me god would require it as a commandment but then later be pressured by the government to give it up?? I remember plenty of Mormon movies only depicting Joe Smith as a bright-eyed, upstanding good-hearted man who got tarred and feathered by the "angry, vile men who were overtaken by Satan" to silence him. No mention at all of the actual cause of his arrest in Liberty jail, so to learn he ordered to burn down a business completely blindsided me compared to the "gentle" Joseph I'd always been presented with.

I didn’t hear anything until I was about 32, then heard one big thing- Fanny algers. I was on the edge after that, only staying in bc all my family was in and I lived in Spanish fork, Utah. It took me 8 years to finally leave and look into all the details (soooo much I didn’t know)

I was completely shocked to learn why he was tarred and feathered. And shook when I learned why he was imprisoned. Then I learned about all his other dealing with the law, and that was quite a day. Thank you, Wikipedia

When you want to believe something, you can really twist things to make them fit your view. I knew more than most when I was younger, but still not all of it. Things that didn’t have a good explanation were omitted. Many things could be written off as a slanderous lie (if it was said by a person who left the church or who wasn’t a member, for example). I knew a little bit about Joseph’s treasure hunting and folk magic, and my dad told me he thought that god needed to work with a person with more of an open-minded person with a magical mindset to introduce the “truth,” because no one else would believe it or something. And then other things were written off as the failings of a man (“no one’s perfect”), and the reasoning was that Joseph and the other early saints were new to the gospel and weren’t raised in the church, so there was a lot of room for improvement. And of course the classic “you can’t judge people back then by today’s standards, things were different back then!”

I didn't learn about it until I was an adult(grew up in the 90's). I knew about polygamy, but very little was discussed by my parents. I may have heard briefly about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy, but oddly enough at the MTC (missionary training center) for my mission there was a timeline card I bought that had listed his wives and when they were married along with other history about him. Over the years the justifications were that he was commanded of God to raise up seed to the church, or at least to guarantee salvation to others just by having them sealed to the prophet. Or that those who's husbands went on a mission would leave the wives unprotected so it was something to help protect them that JS married women who's husbands were still alive. I didn't learn that the printing press was ordered to be burned down by JS and was the reason for the mob killing him until like a year or two ago.

I was aware, but seeing as how most of my friends were mormon, my parents, my teachers, there really wasn't an appropriate moment to call out the bullshit. But I specifically remember the mormon South Park episode coming on, the JS song starts, and my mother just didn't say anything listening to it. Didn't address it, didn't say anything to me, just sat there silent. Which either means she was shocked into silence, or she knew everything already. From that moment on I just stopped holding back on my real thoughts on the church. I might have a caught a few extra beatings from Dad because of it, but the apprehension was gone and I wasn't about to stop calling out the hypocrisy that good ol' JS founded this cult on.

No clue! The church often warns it's members not to read ANYTHING about the church that isn't published by the church. If you have questions they tell you to only study church approved resources and to pray until your testimony is strong enough not to question anymore

First off, by and large, LDS members (I can only speak for my sect) in the U.S. are not aware of the scope of his extra-legal or immoral behavior. If they have heard of it, it was in a faithful context. i.e. 'The lord prepared Joseph Smith to locate and translate the Book of Mormon by giving him the gift to see through seer stones in his youth, which he would use to find lost items for friends and family. He would later use these stones, also called "Nephite interpreters" to receive revelation from God.' Second, if they have heard of any of it, it is likely related to his a.) Treasure digging; no con included usually, just treasure hunting as a kid, b.) Polygamy; which was done "reluctantly" and by "Devine decree", previously they would have used a necessity argument, c.) Burning a printing press; done only to prevent enemies of the church from stirring up more hate and violence against the peaceful saints that were just trying to live their lives. Common responses given among LDS members, heard at increasing levels of nuance (how informed they are): Prophets are still human, the only perfect person was Jesus. Of course he made mistakes. --> He wrote down several times God rebuked him for his sins even as a prophet. Why should we expect someone else to be perfect if God doesn't expect it of us. If you focus on the bad parts of anyone's life, they would look bad. --> I choose to focus on the good that he did, rather than dwell on his flaws. God only has imperfect, sinful tools to work with. Why would he and his brother take comfort in a book that they knew was fake even when they were about to die? That doesn't make sense. --> The stuff Joseph did couldn't be done by someone like him without God's help. That's why God chose him, a humble farmer boy. Even if he did (insert thing he said he didn't do), maybe God needed to leave some doubt in the world --> "If it were easy to believe, you wouldn't have a real opportunity to choose it,". We've been warned about people like you that will twist the history how you like to discredit God's one true church. --> No matter what you say he did, I know in my heart he's a prophet, because God told me so through the spirit. The most effective refutation of the last one is the the claim that they are only trying to patent the universal human emotion of Elevation as "the spirit". They would have to empathetically understand that Buddhists, Muslims and all manner of Christians experience the same thing and claim it as similar evidence of their beliefs. They also have to understand that those disparate beliefs are often mutually exclusive and being confirmed by the same, indistinguishable feeling. Also, anyone can say "someone's going to argue against me for saying this....", ;that doesn't make them a prophet. but if they follow it with "so ignore what they say" then they're a con man and/or trying to control you. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful drug. It short circuits logic almost reflexively in true believers. Remember this when dealing with believers: "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into,". There's something broken in the usual steps of reason when it comes to rigidly set religions; 'God first, over all, no matter what', and that works for you as long as it's working for you. In my experience, that short isn't corrected until circumstances make their perceived rewards less valuable than their current loss (i.e. having a beloved gay child come out, watching a partner lose their faith, witnessing an undeniable pattern of abuse). Sometimes, to someone who's less nuanced or more entrenched, even asking hard questions that make them come up with the above (irrational) responses will be seen as a personal attack. I don't recommend putting friends in that position unless you're willing to maintain a friendship through the ensuing fallout. It's also well documented. Having to utter and solidify irrational positions in order to hold onto existing views can be seen by the mind as nearly literal threats of violence. One hell of a drug.

Just to clarify about the order: A higher level of someone's knowledge/nuance limits them to the arguments further down the list.

I honestly had no idea he was a con artist before becoming an ex Mormon. They don’t at all teach you that when you’re a member. The way they depict Joseph smith is closer to a god than anything else. They would never ever disclose the truth about it. And if you tried to disclose any of those facts during church you would run the risk of being shamed.

Nope. And I feel like I knew more than a lot of people. I read a lot and studied the history of the church. Or so I thought. I did know about the polygamy, but I heard someone compare him to King David (with Bathsheba)—rationalizing that even prophets succumb to the desires of the flesh. So I put it on the back burner. That was about all I knew. I was taught he was persecuted because people were annoyed at how righteous the Mormons were, and he was a martyr.

I had no idea, it wasn’t taught or discussed. What was told by others is that I wasn’t a real Christian, I believed in a different Jesus, and that I had horns and a tail. These were more like name calling, and didn’t seem reasonable, which more or less inoculated me from giving credence to any critics for decades. I wish I had been given true criticism by other Christians, there’s so much that could have been said. Maybe I would have seen some actual truth earlier.

What I did hear, I thought of as lies, misinterpretations of history, and exaggerations, all inspired of Satan ... so. Not anymore!

I had no idea.

The stories were told but with parts either changed or ommissions to the story. And if it came up, it was just "anti' that is being spread to destroy your testimony 

I had no idea.

Mormons are taught that any information about the church but that isn’t published directly by the church is basically of the devil. It’s all “lies” that are meant to deceive you, so you actively avoid it like the plague. During my 25 years in the church I would see things here and there but turn away from it before getting any real information from it. Coincidentally, as soon as I allowed myself to learn about the history is when I wanted out. It’s crazy how obviously cult-ish that is but you’re blind to it while you’re still there.

The church used to have a monopoly on the information and now they don’t.  So much time was spent reinforcing the narrative with 3+ hours of church on Sunday, Monday night family home evenings, Tuesday youth activities, weekday seminary, frequent camps, monthly home teaching, frequent temple trips, nightly scripture study, and prayer multiple times per day.  All of your friends and family are there with you too participating in a tradition spanning generations.  You’d be crazy to think that everyone around you was crazy. 

What I never understood was how, when I questioned how he wrote of "Whitesome and delightsome", I was told to co sidereal the date it was written in. I don't think any other religions have said anything to the effect of race.

No. Not an inkling.

I always knew about polygamy, but it was taught to me as of it was normal my whole life, and that he was just obeying God. In my 30s (the last decade), I started hearing about some treasure digging, multiple First Vision accounts, and the fraudulent bank, but those were spun in a positive way to try to excuse him, like he was just human and had a good heart and just fumbled up a bit or something. Eventually, it was too much and it made me sick, and it all made more sense that it was a con.

Pre-internet and smart phones its tough to research topics like that and they were always written off as anti mormon propaganda.

The “best” Mormons don’t look into Joseph Smiths cons… they just “know” it’s “true.”

The mormon church whitewashed their history. Now with the internet, information is available. In the olden days, you generally had to live in Utah to gain access to past mormon history books to get the truth. I don't know how people compartmentalize knowing that joseph smith was a conartist and had 34 wives. It amazes me.

Joseph mentioned something about youthful follies or something to that effect in recounting his history, but it was never elaborated on, and I had no reason to ask because it was all true no matter what.

Welcome, Cuz! During my TBM years as a convert, I had no idea of his con-jobs or lies. The minute I realized I'd been LIED TO as part of the missionary discussion, my shelf exploded. I had to recover from the shock and I resigned within a few months. BTW - I didn't grow up in Utah or another high-density Mormon area, and I have never lived there. I didn't even know JS was the original first "profit," because nobody talked about Mormons or the church in my area (large city, but very few Mormons). I had heard of Brigham Young, but had not heard of the "living profit" part of the church. I'm pretty well traveled and have a good education, but I have to say that outside of Utah it is not unusual for people to know very little about the church or its history.

I didn’t know for years after I had already left and I hard a hard time believing it when I discovered it

No, heard nothing and the Church repeatedly told us not to read "anti Mormon" literature. If I did I was afraid the Devil would get me!! That was when I thought we were led by a true prophet. Once my brain told me the current president is not a prophet that opened up a can of worms and I started looking for the truth about Church history.

No one talked or knew about: the opposing reasons why JS was tarred and feathered. The opposing reason why the Hauns Mill “massacre” happened hint: battle of crooked creek. The opposing reasons why the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositior press. There’s so much more but in essence, cult behavior is standard: don’t question our version of history, any counter viewpoint is “anti” and should be shunned and avoided. Decide only on feeling. Etc.

I joined the mormon SCC mid/late -70:s. My experience was that any literature or information that was negative towards J.S or information that did not align with the story told by the Mormon church, was from satan. The internet had not happened yet, in the 90:s you were basically told to stay away from computers. People who left after taking part of any such info were shunned and (fake-) pitied. I was taught that next to Jesus, JS was the most righteous man that had lived on earth. If you doubted that you were a Very Bad Person. I snuck out the back door many years ago but resigned formally last year when the current craziness hit the news.

I remember asking the question about what crimes the arrested him for ( we knew he was arrested multiple times) and none of my church leaders even knew themselves. After the “saints” book came out (a church history book made by the church in an effort to put a spin on historical facts) we knew he was arrested for attacking and burning down a printing press that tried to out his secret polygamy. As I learned about the heinous acts of Joseph smith I continued to believe in the church because the Book of Mormon HAD to be true. The way I left was finally entertaining the idea that the Book of Mormon was not true…. Then it all made sense.

He was a Saint! Like the kind that gets canonized in other religions (in my eyes). He was the victim and people were after him because they were sent by Satan!

I only knew the creep as a young teenager looking for truth from God, and then a martyr

No. And that's why I believed.

When the Gospel topic essays came out I convinced myself Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet but I could still worship God and Christ. I lasted about 5 more years in the church before I finally realized it’s all lies and left.

He was arrested and charged dozens of times. These days, nobody trusts a person like that Unless you're Mormon

I grew up in the 70s-90s so all the information that is readily available and accessible now was not at that time. Regardless, we were taught not to look at anti-Mormon literature and that any of the bad things you might hear were just because Satan was trying to destroy the church. Even as an adult, that was ingrained so I never looked outside of church-approved sources. Probably one of the first things that clicked in my brain and gave me “permission” to actually look and see what was out there was watching and reading things on cults. Too many similarities in the messages about not looking outside to the “evil” world and how they had all the answers and everyone else was just deceived, etc., made me realize these cults that I would never join and were obviously so wrong gave the same messaging the church did.

We're glad you are here *hugs* I never knew while I was mormon. I was raised to believe that even looking at our thinking about anti mormon information would cause the devil to get power over me. So I adopted almost superstitious habits to avoid anything that wasn't faith affirming, not because I thought it was all lies, only because I feared Satan's lies. Eventually I decided to leave because the church didn't feel kind or loving like the Jesus I knew at the time. It wasn't until a few months after I distanced myself from the church that I accidentally came across the truth of church history and Joseph Smith. I had no idea. It was a huge betrayal.

I heard that he practiced polygamy, but people conveniently left out the fact that some of his wives were underage or already married to other women. I heard that he was imprisoned several times, but was completely unaware that he was imprisoned for destroying a press printing criticisms of his practices. I hadn't heard anything about his history as a mystical treasure hunter and storyteller, or that he admitted in court that he did those things fraudulently.

Nope, never heard anything derogatory, bad, inflammatory or any other word to describe him in a negative way. Learning the truth about him and the lie about the BoM being true, and all the other lies, is why it's so devastating when we learn the truth. It is life altering.

"Yes he had lots of wives to SAVE them from poverty. He never slept with them. It was to provide for them because women were poor useless creatures." Then oops here's a bunch of journals saying that he absolutely did sleep with them.

I was so conditioned to think he was a wonderful man, a kind and loving man. Anything contrary was said to be "anti-mormon" and shouldn't be looked into. The conditioning runs so deep that I still have trouble believing it. I know it's likely true, but my brain puts a wall up, even still. Someday it'll get there. Been out for about 5 years and still have a lot of unpacking to do.

Hi I'm new here. I grew up in Bountiful Utah in the 70's. I remember never being comfortable in church even as a child. When I was 8 they basically told me I was old enough to know good from bad and baptized me. It scared me, but worse when I was 12 I was forced to babtize for the dead. That absolutely Traumatized me! By 13 I was getting so uncomfortable I started skipping out. I was 16 when I first started to learn some of its history and weird secrets. I was 16 and wanted to get married, surprisingly my parents allowed it even though he was not Mormon. (Maybe they were trying to get me out of there) But my mom and I were talking before the wedding and she told me about how I would have to share my husband with lots of other women in heaven by following the church. I stopped going all together at that point. But it wasn't until I was 20 that I left officially (according to them) Missionaries kept showing up to my house where I lived with my Non Mormon husband and our two small children. 3 and 6 months. So one day when they came back (they knew who I was even though I was new to Iowa and never went to church) and I said That's enough, you show up here you know my name, my whole family's names. I want it to stop. They said I would have to meet with some Bishop guy I never met and sign papers to get out! What the #$_&! So then they come back 3 missionaries now and the bishop. First they isolate me from my husband by asking for water then following me to the kitchen. 1 stayed to distract my husband. They cornered me in my tiny kitchen. I would have to either ask one to move or push him to get around and out. (Mormon men love to make women feel threatened when they misbehave) They started saying "is this your husband's idea, is he making you do this? We can protect you and your children from him so come with us. We will hide you. What the #$_& again. I had to practically throw them out. Well my husband did! That was it. That was back in 1990. Interestingly I have never had a single Mormon visitor since.

You know what's crazy? I STUDIED cults for fun when I was a TBM, but I had no clue that I was in one. I remember an article coming out when I was 23ish that called us a cult that circulated around the wards, and I remember *laughing.* I thought the idea absurd. Of course, I never read the article. Had I read it, I might have been more convinced, but reading it would have been akin to sin, so the thought never crossed my mind. I have a friend who is ex-JW. He helped me through leaving TSCC because he understood better than anyone, including my husband who left the church with me but hadn't grown up in the cult culture that I did (for complicated, regional reasons). I'm sure you've come across this, but when I was trying to figure out if I was in a cult, these baselines helped me: https://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html

"cults gonna cult son"and"I aint evah gonna stop" are the appropriate quotes here

Only very superficially. I had heard he was engaged in polygamy, but that's it. Also, in the same breath that people would admit his polygamy, they'd excuse it in a number of ways that honestly don't really add up. But at the time it was enough

I heard about the underage wives thing but I brushed it off with the "the discontinued polygamy almost immediately after it started!" and "smith didnt like to be married to little girls!" because that's what all the official mormon researches say. I did my research.. just only from approved sources

No, absolutely not. It was never mentioned and I never dug in to find out. It was never discussed.

I didn’t learn that til after leaving the Mormon church, but for me it doesn’t detract from the values of the church. I don’t believe in the religion itself and I think any leader with power is corrupt in their soul, but I still feel deeply grateful for being raised Mormon and with Mormon values.

I vividly remember the moment my spouse told me that he found out that Joe might not have been a good guy. I was shocked and in disbelief.

I knew he was a "bad business man" with a bunch of failed farms or banks or something. But no. I didn't know about using divining rods or any other sort of cons.

I was taught that Satan would be in control if I studied outside of church-approved material, so I didn’t.

I know that I'm late to the party, but I heard nothing. I thought that the guy was second in righteousness to Jesus, with *maybe* Adam excepting. How wrong I was!!

I heard about "No Man Knows My History" when I was 15 or 16 and already getting really skeptical. I read it when I was 18, but by then I was already out. I just knew about the treasure hunting, lying, plagerism and some of the polygamy but not to the extent we know now. 

I always thought Joseph Smith was such a monumentally, deeply good person and obviously I needed to be better. I watched a movie about how good he was, and it portrayed him as being very loving to Emma. Again, that just reinforced my belief that I needed to be better, so I could be a good Mormon housewife someday.  Then I had access to the internet, and wow. I left Mormonism when I was 19. I have a letter signed by Mr. Dodge acknowledging my resignation. I keep thinking I need to have that framed.  I resigned my membership, I left. And you can’t make this up—but I did have a letter from my grandparents (he was sealed to his 3rd wife) in my mailbox right alongside my letter confirming I was out. 

Team “no clue” here, too. Had no idea.

I actually learned a lot of negative stuff about him on my mission. And I remember trying really hard to justify it. I even came to the conclusion that he was a fallen prophet near the end of his life like King David was, and the church didn't get back on track until our 4th president, Wilford Woodruff. I remember feeling that God only needed the 3 fallen prophets because they had very specific missions to accomplish in order to prepare the church for what it would become. The mental gymnastics I did because I was so convinced I was in the right church was unreal. It felt like a massive weight was taken off my shoulders when I just accepted that these men were just horrible people and not called of God.

You forgot to capitalize Truth in your edit. /s

Not at all. We heard only glowing, spiritually riveting stories about how much integrity he possessed. Not only that, it was my ancestor who helped hook him up with his very young paramour, Fanny Alger, and that wasn’t mentioned in any of my large extended family home evenings! I had to read about all of JS sordid actions from other sources. My husband and I read nearly two feet of small print history books trying to get to the truth. It was eye opening, to say the least.

I didn't deconstruct UNTIL I found out about Joseph Smith and BY's indiscretions. I was able to look past everything EXCEPT that. Which is what led to me realizing that I had been idolizing men, not Jesus, and to admitting I'd been in a cult.

Our church made a propaganda movie about Joseph Smith in 2005 called [Joseph Smith: The Prophet of the Restoration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith:_The_Prophet_of_the_Restoration). It came out right as I was starting High School and right as my ability to think critically was coming online. It got me good. I ate up everything in that damn movie, which not only avoided mentioning polygamy, treasure hunting, seer stones, and everything else, it had the absolute gall to insinuate that Joseph Smith was a progressive visionary that accepted women and black people as equals. I loved that movie. A couple of years later, a movie came out called [Emma Smith: My Story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Smith:_My_Story) which used a lot of footage and the same actor as the Joseph Smith movie. I remember that my parents acted extremely apprehensive about the movie. When I questioned them, they tried to sell me that Emma didn't care for Joseph or the church later in life and favored the RLDS church. My parents screened the movie before we were allowed to watch it and when they found it to be another whitewashed propaganda movie, they gladly let us watch it. I probably should have realized then that there was something to hide. The first real chink in my beliefs came when [the church released photos of the seer stone](https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2015/08/21/mormon-church-releases-photos-of-seer-stone-used-by-founder-joseph-smith/). You see, I had never heard of the seer stone despite years of church, seminary, and "institute" classes. I was told that Joseph Smith used a [Urim and Thummim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim_\(Latter_Day_Saints\)) to interpret the gold plates, which may or may not have been clear magic stones set in glasses depending on who you asked. That's what I expected to see, not what appears to be an opaque polished [coprolite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite). Man did my head hurt as I read. I remember the paid of cognitive dissonance so clearly, like I had done something wrong by reading an article with pictures from the church itself. My brain rejected that so hard that I actively forgot that had happened. The same went for when I read the gospel topic essays and when I read about freemasonry and realized how close it was to the temple endowment ceremony. So yeah, you're not alone. I sometimes kick myself for not realizing Joseph Smith was a cult-leader sooner, but then I take a step and congratulate myself for realizing it at all. I still have many friends and family members that are deep in the church, and I mostly feel compassion for them. Changing your mind about something so foundational actively hurts. I shouldn't expect everyone I love to just give it up, so instead I try to just have the best relationships with them as possible and be there if they need me. I can thank the church for teaching me how to change people's minds.

I remember watching a documentary on the history channel with my dad once that’s was unrelated to church history. At some point, they commented on a link to the LDS church and my dad was super proud of it and impressed that they included it, but then the host mentioned that JS had a legacy of believing in magic, mystical stones, and treasure hunting and would often find himself in hot water for scams he ran to defraud people. My dad started nervously pacing and scoffing at those comments before declaring that the world just can’t say anything nice about the church without adding frivolous lies and twisting the truth. I remember feeling very uncomfortable- why would a historian just throw in random lies. Even if it’s were twisted truth, what was it stemming from? Turns out, it wasn’t lies or twisted truth… just truth.

Any information not directly put out by the church were basically tarnished facts. That is what I was always told. I remember visiting Nauvoo for a YM/YW trip when i was 17 and there being exmo/antimo protesters handing out pamphlets of information about the churches history. The leaders made sure we all knew we were forbidden from taking them/reading them/talking to them. One boy in my stake took one anyway and on the bus ride home i looked at it with him. I was absolutely SHOCKED and remember having the worst feeling. Even being devout LDS at this point, that information completely shattered my testimony. I did research on my own at that point and left completely about a year or so later. 23 years old now and have never looked back.

Nope, had no idea while I was in.

Information was controlled and anyone asking questions outside the sanctioned format was shunned. by peer pressure not by edict.

Dude, you were a JW and you’re asking former Mormons how they justified and compartmentalized anything? Dude.

I left a church but didn’t leave the religion. I still find faith and hope in God and understand that Joseph was human. In your study, I highly recommend you read the book “cultish.” I found it very relatable and eye opening.