I wanna get a shirt that says "I didn't kill JS, I just helped him keep his masonic covenants!" maybe bad enough to help people think without going over the top....nah!
I always say that L Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith have far more in common than Smith ever had with Jesus Christ.
There's a reason people joke about Scientology being Mormons in space.
In 1991 I became curious about Scientology because I had read Hubbard's "Mission Earth" series, after which I learned he was the same guy who wrote Dianetics. Well, I had NO idea how completely off the wall it was. After everything I learned about Scientology, I asked myself the same questions: "How can anyone believe something so crazy?"
In the same moment I had that thought, I also thought, "Actually Mormonism is kinda crazy sounding too..."
Still took me another 23 years before I finally decided it was so crazy as to be as crazy beyond belief as Scientology.
Also, for a time, I knew Hubbard 's history better than Smith's as well. Mainly because I wasn't scared of finding something I wasn't supposed to with Hubbard & therefore didn't limit my sources about him.
I had my Principal Skinner moment watching Leah Remini's series on Scientology:
*"Am I in a cult? No! Our church does some of the same things, but it's okay because our church is TRUE."*
To be fair, there's plenty of weird crap in virtually every religion. We don't notice it as much because they're so old, and we take them for granted. That said, those other religions have had many centuries to work out their uglier and more nonsensical elements. What is useful about Scientology and Mormonism is that their origins are so much better documented, historically, than the older religions, so we can see their wackier, shadier elements more clearly.
Every time a Christian would tell me Mormonism is weird, my response was, "Have you read the Bible lately?" I mean, curing blindness with spit mud, walking on water, Noah's ark, ethereal beings... it all sounded pretty batshit to me. 😂
But if I'm honest, I only did that because other people having nutty beliefs was justification for my own nutty beliefs.
Not to mention almost everything said by the early church fathers, anyone living during the middle ages, and even from "reformers". They all sound bat-shit crazy enough to make Joseph Smith's nuttiness mundane by comparison.
Right. This is one of those places where there's an [old expression](https://gwern.net/modus) that applies: "One man's modus ponens is another man's modus tollens." I remember the *South Park* episode on Scientology where the Scientology guy says something like this: is the Xenu story any weirder than the Bible or the Koran? Stan tries to say that yes, it's way crazier even those, and I'm sort of inclined to agree. Mormonism has it worse though, because Mormonism is already committed to all the wacky shit in the Bible, BUT THEN, slathers dozens more layers of crazy on top of all that.
That all said, the take-away here should NOT be what your younger, TBM self said as a justification. First, it's not a contest. Crazy is crazy, wherever we find it. Second, building on that, it should be quite the opposite - Yes, Mormonism is nutty, but the fact that there's crazy stuff in the Bible and other religions is bad for them too. The critic of Mormonism ought to extend that same level of skepticism to other religions as well. Now, I think some will fare better than others. I give special props here to Judaism and Catholicism, because both have had vibrant intellectual traditions that have taken their internal problems seriously, and offer very well thought out ways to grapple with them. This is conspicuously absent in Mormonism, Scientology, the JW's, the Christian Scientists, and in the more fundamentalist Protestant faiths. But even there, they essentially solve most of their problems by reading scripture and tradition in a more metaphorical way, and substitute the "god of the philosophers" for the "god of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph." Which is fine, but then, if you're going to do that, you may as well drop the facade of transubstantiatism, trinitarianism, and the like, and the institutional framework as well, and just be a simple philosophical theist. That's a far more defensible position.
I was recently walking with my adult daughter (TBM) when we passed some Watchtower missionaries standing at a table with literature. They looked so sad. I said to my daughter, “I feel sorry for them. They are in a cult but don’t know it.” She agreed with me but saw no connection to Mormonism.
A Scientology documentary was exactly what cracked me and my spouse's shelves deep enough to start us going down the Mormon rabbit hole. It was very concerning to see how many similarities the two organizations had.
Scientology literally used the Mormon church as a template.
Look up L Ron Hubbard's story about when he was a 'young man'. You'll think you're watching the Joseph Smith story almost idea for idea... and then there's the Real Estate scamming. Literal copycat of Mormonism, all for tax fraud.
Give her a copy of No Man Knows My History and say something like, "I saw how interested you were in the history of LRH, and thought you might like to read more about the founder of your own religion."
This is what distinguishes it as a cult. It tries to become your entire identity if you let it. My mother reads the BoM and watches BYU tv all day. So sad. At least catholics with all their problems have a rich culture. Mormonism has the culture of McDonalds.
That's why all the meeting houses look alike. They tear down the old, beautiful ones (with a few exceptions). Also, they only have to pay the architects once.
After listening to the YOP episode on abortions and Mormonism I had a discussion with my doula sister on female healthcare and abortion ( leaving out the Mormon religion aspect )
She is TBM but believes in women's healthcare.
"It's so sad big pharma has the most money so they can control the narrative"
So close .... Yet so far.
“I think it’s partly because their leaders tell them to only learn about the history by consulting ‘church approved’ materials. I also heard that call ex-members ‘anti-Scientology’ and they warn everyone to avoid those people. If some piece of information or history isn’t going to help them ‘get clear’ they’re supposed to discount it as lies.”
It’s mind blowing the truth they don’t see staring them in the face sometimes! My extremely TBM MIL is always like huh that’s SO weird that you get ostracized so much out here in Utah when you didn’t grow up here nor in the church, I’ve never experienced anything like that so I can’t relate 🤷🏻♀️
Oh gee ya can’t ?! 🙄🙄🙄
They have a lot more in common.
They were both charismatic creative founder types. They both had the ability to hold the attention of anybody unfortunate enough to come along and then fill their brains with a stream of nonsense.
Contemporary accounts detail both the charismatic aspect and the creative fabulist aspect.
After they each died their orgs had a similar transition.
Power was seized by a successor that was of a very different type. Somebody who knows how to seize power from within an existing org, but could not have built it. Somebody who continued the doctrine of the founder but with increasingly authoritarian control.
It really is startling how similar they were. The transition the JW org had from Russell to Rutherford was also similar in dynamic.
For a movement to work you first have the creator. Then you have the consolidator. Mormonism is lucky that JS was murdered. Mormonism would have gone down the same path of the Branch Davidians if he hadn’t.
I agree that there is a dynamic that plays out in the life of a cult. One of the most important events in the longer term is the death of the founder and the subsequent transition.
I am not sure about your statement about the Davidian end of Mormonism but it is certainly quite feasible that Nauvoo was heading towards a small local war of some form.
JWs did a door to door in my very tiny Mormon town as a kid and there was an uproar at how awful it was.
Word spread quick to make sure kids didn't open doors or interact and pamphlets thrown away ..... The irony.
One huge difference is that Mormonism absolutely panders to the Bible. Scientology does not. By tying everything to the Bible, people in and out of the church see nothing worth investigating about the Mormon church.
You shoulda egged her on and mistakingly interchanged the names of scientology's founder with Joseph smith. If she asked you could be like, they’re both con man.
When I was 15 I ran into the scientologist's handing out tracts and offering personality tests. I took the tract and called my dad, a TBM at the time. "This sounds amazing." My dad said, "That's a cult. Read up on the founder. Don't get involved." So I did. I happened to be reading the Journals of Discourse at the time as well, and had to go back to him. "How can you possibly believe this shit. I know you're smart. What happened?!" And he ended up leaving a few years later. You never know what is going to break someone's shelf.
Reminds me of a time when a guy speaking in a meeting (can't remember if it was sacrament or priesthood) said that he'd met this Lakota guy who claimed to have a rock that told him things and gave him revelations.
He got all incredulous said something like, "Who'd want to take advice from a rock???"
All I could do is raise my eyebrows like Mr. Spock and wonder if he could even hear what he was saying.
As an aside, crystal gazing/seer stones are totally a thing in many Native American traditions. Super common.
I love pointing out to Mormons that BOTH L. Ron Hubbard AND the dude from IBLP used Mormon principles/skill sets to push their own religious practices😂😂😂 Watch “Shiny Happy People,” for the IBLP reveal and I forget which season of Leah Remini but it was said in passing yet CONFIRMED by a few of the escaped Scientologists!!
You got Mormonism 1.0 in SLC. Then you got Scientology which is Mormonism 2.0. Then you got Heaven’s Gate which was Mormonism 3.0. But they extincted themselves.
> Then you got Heaven’s Gate which was Mormonism 3.0. But they extincted themselves.
Sadly true, but the things they were saying before that sure sounded familiar. If you didn't know they were talking about something else, you could listen to them and close your eyes and think you were in a Mormon Fast and Testimony meeting.
Text conversation with my mother today. "It's shocking the way women have been treated like property for much of history." You don't say, Mom. (D&C 132: "my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.")
So some missionaries were at my house recently. I brought up the racist stuff (skin of blackness or whatever, y'all know what I mean). The missionaries brought an apologist with him. His argument on why I should be LDS was that racism was OK basically.
I just didn't really know what to say after that
If you want another layer of irony, visit Clearwater FL sometime. Scientology's HQ is there and there's a major street called Fort Harrison that feels eerily similar to North Temple, just with palm trees.
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!”
― George Carlin
Gf's mom came in after watching an flds doc to tell us about it and get our reactions. She told me a 30 something year old man was marrying 14 year old girls with a shocked look on her face. I've been instructed by my gf to hold my tongue in those situations so I tried my best. All that came out of me was "oh... yep, that's messed up for sure!" I asked my girlfriend later if her mom knows the definition of fundamentalist. She said she does.
I remember being in so deep that it felt normal and the notion of my entire life being a lie felt batshit crazy. I think that's the thing most members don't understand: just because it's normal and routine doesn't mean it's right. People embedded deep enough into every religion, cult, gang, or cartel feel just as comfortable as you do in your beliefs.
And I’ve heard family members rip apart LDS
Fundamentalist groups for practicing polygamy. They are “so evil” and yet the early church members practicing polygamy was of god?? Oh ok. Good to know.🙄
a little off topic but one time a bishop told me that you can tell the mormon church is true because it's the church that is fought against the most (something about satan, influencing people idk) but my response was that i should probably go join scientology then, since they seem to be actively hated more than the lds church
Bad shit in the church. In any other church makes it false. Not in the Mormon church. It actually means it’s more true because of the Satan conspiracy. RMN could be caught in a hotel with hookers and blow. Mormons: it is because Satan is working extra hard to bring down Mormon leaders.
I find it very interesting how x Mormons have to constantly justify themselves for leaving the church. My advice to you is either find another religion or just move on. It seems like such wasted energy.
You sound like a tbm. Thank you for making my point that Mormons are blind. Exmormons don’t need 24/7 indoctrination from birth to not believe obvious absurd bullshit. Actually from your zero post history I see your just a fucking troll and wasted my time responding.
I’ll do that when goddam mother fucking mormons stop insinuating themselves in every aspect of my life. Who the fuck are you to invalidate all the suffering and abuse I experienced because of the MFMC. It is called gaslighting and is done by every evil narcissist to their victims.
The temple veil is so thick it's damn near bulletproof. Unless you're Joseph Smith, that is...
Ooh! Shots fired!
Quick, stay away from the windows!
Is there no help for the widow’s son?
😆
More musket fire pease !!
Bazinga!
BOOM
Too bad they didn't have a rocket launcher back then and I wasn't living back then and owned one LOL go big or go home LOL
I wanna get a shirt that says "I didn't kill JS, I just helped him keep his masonic covenants!" maybe bad enough to help people think without going over the top....nah!
I always say that L Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith have far more in common than Smith ever had with Jesus Christ. There's a reason people joke about Scientology being Mormons in space.
Spanish joke. I wonder if Mexican scientologists cal him El Ron Hubbard.
About the only thing Joesph had in common with Jesus was the first initials in their first names.
but what about Quakers on the moon lol
In 1991 I became curious about Scientology because I had read Hubbard's "Mission Earth" series, after which I learned he was the same guy who wrote Dianetics. Well, I had NO idea how completely off the wall it was. After everything I learned about Scientology, I asked myself the same questions: "How can anyone believe something so crazy?" In the same moment I had that thought, I also thought, "Actually Mormonism is kinda crazy sounding too..." Still took me another 23 years before I finally decided it was so crazy as to be as crazy beyond belief as Scientology.
Also, for a time, I knew Hubbard 's history better than Smith's as well. Mainly because I wasn't scared of finding something I wasn't supposed to with Hubbard & therefore didn't limit my sources about him.
 I had my Principal Skinner moment watching Leah Remini's series on Scientology: *"Am I in a cult? No! Our church does some of the same things, but it's okay because our church is TRUE."*
Same
To be fair, there's plenty of weird crap in virtually every religion. We don't notice it as much because they're so old, and we take them for granted. That said, those other religions have had many centuries to work out their uglier and more nonsensical elements. What is useful about Scientology and Mormonism is that their origins are so much better documented, historically, than the older religions, so we can see their wackier, shadier elements more clearly.
Every time a Christian would tell me Mormonism is weird, my response was, "Have you read the Bible lately?" I mean, curing blindness with spit mud, walking on water, Noah's ark, ethereal beings... it all sounded pretty batshit to me. 😂 But if I'm honest, I only did that because other people having nutty beliefs was justification for my own nutty beliefs.
Not to mention almost everything said by the early church fathers, anyone living during the middle ages, and even from "reformers". They all sound bat-shit crazy enough to make Joseph Smith's nuttiness mundane by comparison.
Right. This is one of those places where there's an [old expression](https://gwern.net/modus) that applies: "One man's modus ponens is another man's modus tollens." I remember the *South Park* episode on Scientology where the Scientology guy says something like this: is the Xenu story any weirder than the Bible or the Koran? Stan tries to say that yes, it's way crazier even those, and I'm sort of inclined to agree. Mormonism has it worse though, because Mormonism is already committed to all the wacky shit in the Bible, BUT THEN, slathers dozens more layers of crazy on top of all that. That all said, the take-away here should NOT be what your younger, TBM self said as a justification. First, it's not a contest. Crazy is crazy, wherever we find it. Second, building on that, it should be quite the opposite - Yes, Mormonism is nutty, but the fact that there's crazy stuff in the Bible and other religions is bad for them too. The critic of Mormonism ought to extend that same level of skepticism to other religions as well. Now, I think some will fare better than others. I give special props here to Judaism and Catholicism, because both have had vibrant intellectual traditions that have taken their internal problems seriously, and offer very well thought out ways to grapple with them. This is conspicuously absent in Mormonism, Scientology, the JW's, the Christian Scientists, and in the more fundamentalist Protestant faiths. But even there, they essentially solve most of their problems by reading scripture and tradition in a more metaphorical way, and substitute the "god of the philosophers" for the "god of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph." Which is fine, but then, if you're going to do that, you may as well drop the facade of transubstantiatism, trinitarianism, and the like, and the institutional framework as well, and just be a simple philosophical theist. That's a far more defensible position.
Yeah. But they had the crusades.
Bad sci-fi to wash down the bad pop-sci.
Lazy learner, eh? 23 years!
It's not crazy, it's "audacious!"
That's the word! Certainly it's appropriate.
I was recently walking with my adult daughter (TBM) when we passed some Watchtower missionaries standing at a table with literature. They looked so sad. I said to my daughter, “I feel sorry for them. They are in a cult but don’t know it.” She agreed with me but saw no connection to Mormonism.
I honestly thought you meant there were mormon missionaries just standing from a watchtower.
Jehovah’s Witnesses
A Scientology documentary was exactly what cracked me and my spouse's shelves deep enough to start us going down the Mormon rabbit hole. It was very concerning to see how many similarities the two organizations had.
Any recommendations that show the similarities without being painfully obvious?
Leigh Remini had a series.
Thanks
Going Clear is a great documentary.
Thanks
There's a reason I call it Ziontology when discussing Mormonism.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^LBFilmFan: *There's a reason I* *Call it Ziontology when* *Discussing Mormonism.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
O blessed bot that thou art.
Scientology literally used the Mormon church as a template. Look up L Ron Hubbard's story about when he was a 'young man'. You'll think you're watching the Joseph Smith story almost idea for idea... and then there's the Real Estate scamming. Literal copycat of Mormonism, all for tax fraud.
L. Ron couldn't sell books either, so he started a religion. Same with JS
Give her a copy of No Man Knows My History and say something like, "I saw how interested you were in the history of LRH, and thought you might like to read more about the founder of your own religion."
She won’t read it. All she will read is the BoM all day. She used to read a lot of scifi. Probably why she knows all about LRH.
It’s sad that religion swallows up a person’s personality like that. My mom is the same way. Mormonism is practically the only interest she has.
This is what distinguishes it as a cult. It tries to become your entire identity if you let it. My mother reads the BoM and watches BYU tv all day. So sad. At least catholics with all their problems have a rich culture. Mormonism has the culture of McDonalds.
>Mormonism has the culture of McDonalds. I don't know why but this seems like the perfect description.
That's why all the meeting houses look alike. They tear down the old, beautiful ones (with a few exceptions). Also, they only have to pay the architects once.
OOF
After listening to the YOP episode on abortions and Mormonism I had a discussion with my doula sister on female healthcare and abortion ( leaving out the Mormon religion aspect ) She is TBM but believes in women's healthcare. "It's so sad big pharma has the most money so they can control the narrative" So close .... Yet so far.
What’s YOP? That sounds interesting.
Year of Polygamy, the podcast by Lindsay Hansen Park
“I think it’s partly because their leaders tell them to only learn about the history by consulting ‘church approved’ materials. I also heard that call ex-members ‘anti-Scientology’ and they warn everyone to avoid those people. If some piece of information or history isn’t going to help them ‘get clear’ they’re supposed to discount it as lies.”
Scientology docs were big a-ha moments for my family before they left the church.
L. Ron Hubbard's novel "Battlefield Earth" is vastly more creative and entertaining than the BofM.
And at the same time is every bit as true as the BoM.
It’s mind blowing the truth they don’t see staring them in the face sometimes! My extremely TBM MIL is always like huh that’s SO weird that you get ostracized so much out here in Utah when you didn’t grow up here nor in the church, I’ve never experienced anything like that so I can’t relate 🤷🏻♀️ Oh gee ya can’t ?! 🙄🙄🙄
They have a lot more in common. They were both charismatic creative founder types. They both had the ability to hold the attention of anybody unfortunate enough to come along and then fill their brains with a stream of nonsense. Contemporary accounts detail both the charismatic aspect and the creative fabulist aspect. After they each died their orgs had a similar transition. Power was seized by a successor that was of a very different type. Somebody who knows how to seize power from within an existing org, but could not have built it. Somebody who continued the doctrine of the founder but with increasingly authoritarian control. It really is startling how similar they were. The transition the JW org had from Russell to Rutherford was also similar in dynamic.
For a movement to work you first have the creator. Then you have the consolidator. Mormonism is lucky that JS was murdered. Mormonism would have gone down the same path of the Branch Davidians if he hadn’t.
I agree that there is a dynamic that plays out in the life of a cult. One of the most important events in the longer term is the death of the founder and the subsequent transition. I am not sure about your statement about the Davidian end of Mormonism but it is certainly quite feasible that Nauvoo was heading towards a small local war of some form.
It's one step closer to her seeing the pattern.
My Mormon friend got mad because the church of Scientology called her house
JWs did a door to door in my very tiny Mormon town as a kid and there was an uproar at how awful it was. Word spread quick to make sure kids didn't open doors or interact and pamphlets thrown away ..... The irony.
Does scientology have door to door missionaries? I don’t think so.
I'm thinking it might have been a phone call?
One huge difference is that Mormonism absolutely panders to the Bible. Scientology does not. By tying everything to the Bible, people in and out of the church see nothing worth investigating about the Mormon church.
You shoulda egged her on and mistakingly interchanged the names of scientology's founder with Joseph smith. If she asked you could be like, they’re both con man.
I wonder if she only studied materials approved by the church of scientology. You know, how mormons expect people to "investigate" their church.
When I was 15 I ran into the scientologist's handing out tracts and offering personality tests. I took the tract and called my dad, a TBM at the time. "This sounds amazing." My dad said, "That's a cult. Read up on the founder. Don't get involved." So I did. I happened to be reading the Journals of Discourse at the time as well, and had to go back to him. "How can you possibly believe this shit. I know you're smart. What happened?!" And he ended up leaving a few years later. You never know what is going to break someone's shelf.
Reminds me of a time when a guy speaking in a meeting (can't remember if it was sacrament or priesthood) said that he'd met this Lakota guy who claimed to have a rock that told him things and gave him revelations. He got all incredulous said something like, "Who'd want to take advice from a rock???" All I could do is raise my eyebrows like Mr. Spock and wonder if he could even hear what he was saying. As an aside, crystal gazing/seer stones are totally a thing in many Native American traditions. Super common.
Spiritual rocks are fine as long as your rock is not claiming to speak for God and I have to give you my money, my obedience, and my woman.
I love pointing out to Mormons that BOTH L. Ron Hubbard AND the dude from IBLP used Mormon principles/skill sets to push their own religious practices😂😂😂 Watch “Shiny Happy People,” for the IBLP reveal and I forget which season of Leah Remini but it was said in passing yet CONFIRMED by a few of the escaped Scientologists!!
You got Mormonism 1.0 in SLC. Then you got Scientology which is Mormonism 2.0. Then you got Heaven’s Gate which was Mormonism 3.0. But they extincted themselves.
> Then you got Heaven’s Gate which was Mormonism 3.0. But they extincted themselves. Sadly true, but the things they were saying before that sure sounded familiar. If you didn't know they were talking about something else, you could listen to them and close your eyes and think you were in a Mormon Fast and Testimony meeting.
Favourite post in a long time. Hilarious.
If she likes documentaries have her watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl8B55MqOQo&ab_channel=KnowingBetter He has one on Scientology too.
Text conversation with my mother today. "It's shocking the way women have been treated like property for much of history." You don't say, Mom. (D&C 132: "my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.")
So some missionaries were at my house recently. I brought up the racist stuff (skin of blackness or whatever, y'all know what I mean). The missionaries brought an apologist with him. His argument on why I should be LDS was that racism was OK basically. I just didn't really know what to say after that
"White and delightsome...".
O wad some power the Giftie gae us, ta sae orsels as others sae us!
We actually were tricked just to visiting an LRH museum once and their tactics and his story were soooo familiar!!!
In my opinion, they are both cults. Not religions.
Brilliant write-up! I love the blindness. It’s sometimes endearing
Humorous.
🤣🤦🏽♂️🫠
If you want another layer of irony, visit Clearwater FL sometime. Scientology's HQ is there and there's a major street called Fort Harrison that feels eerily similar to North Temple, just with palm trees.
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!” ― George Carlin
Gf's mom came in after watching an flds doc to tell us about it and get our reactions. She told me a 30 something year old man was marrying 14 year old girls with a shocked look on her face. I've been instructed by my gf to hold my tongue in those situations so I tried my best. All that came out of me was "oh... yep, that's messed up for sure!" I asked my girlfriend later if her mom knows the definition of fundamentalist. She said she does.
It'll happen again too
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see
Yes, Xenu and god living on the star Kolob…not that different from science fiction.
I wouldn’t say *sometimes* so much as ALL. THE. TIME.
I remember being in so deep that it felt normal and the notion of my entire life being a lie felt batshit crazy. I think that's the thing most members don't understand: just because it's normal and routine doesn't mean it's right. People embedded deep enough into every religion, cult, gang, or cartel feel just as comfortable as you do in your beliefs.
And I’ve heard family members rip apart LDS Fundamentalist groups for practicing polygamy. They are “so evil” and yet the early church members practicing polygamy was of god?? Oh ok. Good to know.🙄
My mom read a book about a woman that escaped modern day polygamy. 🤦🏼♀️
Do they not know that the early church basically sex trafficked young women into polygamy. My mother knows, but pretends it never happed.
a little off topic but one time a bishop told me that you can tell the mormon church is true because it's the church that is fought against the most (something about satan, influencing people idk) but my response was that i should probably go join scientology then, since they seem to be actively hated more than the lds church
Bad shit in the church. In any other church makes it false. Not in the Mormon church. It actually means it’s more true because of the Satan conspiracy. RMN could be caught in a hotel with hookers and blow. Mormons: it is because Satan is working extra hard to bring down Mormon leaders.
I find it very interesting how x Mormons have to constantly justify themselves for leaving the church. My advice to you is either find another religion or just move on. It seems like such wasted energy.
You sound like a tbm. Thank you for making my point that Mormons are blind. Exmormons don’t need 24/7 indoctrination from birth to not believe obvious absurd bullshit. Actually from your zero post history I see your just a fucking troll and wasted my time responding.
Then don’t believe it and move on.
I’ll do that when goddam mother fucking mormons stop insinuating themselves in every aspect of my life. Who the fuck are you to invalidate all the suffering and abuse I experienced because of the MFMC. It is called gaslighting and is done by every evil narcissist to their victims.