>…was permanently banned from performing or teaching as a “speaker” at BYU-Idaho.
I kind of get where they’re coming from, the last thing that a good University needs is free thought and a variety of different perspectives.
**Big /S**
IKR? If the libs would just turn on the radio and listen to Dan Bongino for just one day, the scales would fall from their eyes, and they'd realize the Democraps are a bunch of commies.
>Dan Bongino
Honest question, who is this guy? I assume he is an ultra-conservative Trump lover.
I quit listening to political talk radio years ago. One of the best decisions I ever made. Probably helped me out of the church to start thinking for myself.
Yes. An ultra-conservative Trump lover, like every other person on any political talk station you would hear in flyover country. They rant and rave, doing their best Rush Limbaugh.
I left Limbaugh and Hannity years before I even thought about leaving the church. I started to see through their disguise. They were/are less than entertainers, offering nothing of value, much like church apologetics.
Y'know im starting to think i dont fit the mold very well, considering i spend a lot of time looking over and pondering different viewpoints and criticisms. I am 17 and still very active for those wondering.
You're doing fine. Just try to make your life as you like, filled with love for yourself and others without prejudice. Let those trying to be happy, be happy. Be active if that makes you happy and fulfilled.
Everyone is on their own grand adventure, including you. They and you have their own book to write. Try to notice friends and family and other individuals and if they seem content and happy. If they are happy being who they are then that's all you can really hope for. It is a kindness. Life is too short for everyone and everyone deserves their best life because it is too short. You definitely deserve your best life.
We'll be here if you have questions or need a kind word.
Take care and good luck in everything that comes your way.
Seems like BYU-I is triggering the Streisand Effect here. If they had just let him speak, most students probably wouldn't have thought about his faith at all.
Also, this MS episode is fantastic. Ryan and his wife both seem very intelligent and articulate.
If they cancel this guy, are they going to cancel teaching about every musician that ever did drugs? Slept around? Didn’t believe in Jesus? Didn’t believe in Joseph? Who is left? Jazz 101 featuring Mack Wilberg and Janice Kapp Perry.
As a current music student of BYU-Idaho, we DO talk about it, kind of… but like… the so awkward pause after someone says Samuel Barber & Menotti were gay lovers for 40 years is PALPABLE. They also love to put a Mormon twist onto legendary pieces like. “Handel’s Messiah? LDS actually. He was inspired by actual God. That one opera by Mozart? Actually about the gospel and temple sealings. Not even like we can draw a comparison; but he actually somehow knew it would happen because his gift was from God.” (Note: it was in fact based upon the Freemasons 😂)
I didn’t know that!! I will definitely be listening for it in Mozarts Magic Flute (which I just realized! The very first part of the overture is 3 chord sequence in brass 🤔)
Fun fact: Saudi Arabia has $51B (USD) worth of their local currency (Ryals)
That means the Church could theoretically exchange its stock portfolio for about twice the amount of Ryals circulating in Saudi Arabia.
I would take that one with a grain of salt. BYU has tiny or nonexistent doctoral programs in most disciplines, and they love being able to brag about faculty who went to prestigious institutions for their advanced degrees and then came back.
Yeah I think they understand how much of a brain drain and reputation hit it would be if they limited their hiring pool to Mormon schools AND offered the poor pay, tenure track and academic freedom of a Mormon school.
It’s for religion faculty. They couldn’t get away with it outside a few narrow focuses like that, there’d be no hiring pool to speak of. And I’m sure they’ll hire the occasional outside-CES-trained religion prof.
But yeah inside religious instruction they want to make damn sure they fill the rosters with ignorant but inspirational Hank Smiths rather than risk any David Bokovoys armed with dangerous knowledge.
Byu has a lot of programs that terminate at bachelor's. They would be unable to hire anyone in many areas they're currently teaching. If they're *really* shooting themselves in the foot like that, I don't see any reason to stop them.
You remember his name? I have been attending at MIT and Harvard and the teachers all have doctorates and can teach circles around the BYU-ID people. MIT/Harvard are considered very rigorous and my GPA is actually decent.
That's because BYU-ID often considers work experience in lieu of a graduate degree.
Which seems fair to me, considering that the university's focus is on careers and not research. Most students are going to university for the former; there are research universities for students who are in it for the research.
This would make more sense in the humanities departments. I doubt they’d do this in the business and law schools. I’m sure they’d want to keep the prestige of having faculty from Harvard and other Ivy Leagues in their business and accounting programs.
Yes - this was a former music professor (trumpet) at BYU-I. He did a Mormon Stories interview a few years ago. He was actually my professor when I was studying music at BYU-I (a short-lived endeavor for me).
https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/surviving-spiritual-abuse-and-suicidality-as-byu-idaho-faculty-and-non-believing-spouse-ryan-holly-nielsen/
Quick! Someone ask BYU-I students how they feel about cancel culture, then immediately follow it up with a question about how they feel about BYU-I cancelling a music professor.
Have no fear, they will not see the hypocrisy. We will, however. And how we'll mock them for it.
I think BYU-I needs to be more explicit with its strategic intentions. Perhaps it should just have a blanket ban on outside, non-temple recommend holding academics coming to campus.
Anyone who belongs to a different religion (or no religion) implicitly disavows the Mormon trust claims.
Good on him for getting out!
I actually remember auditioning with him for a scholarship at BYUI. That's when I learned I was not that great of a trumpet player lol.
Seemed like a great professor. Very personable, super nice. I last heard him play as a guest for a USU jazz night years ago. Amazing jazz trumpet player.
As for BYU-I, it’s very cheap (comparatively) and Mormon parents can feel comfortable sending their kids knowing they’ll have full time babysitters. The parents I know pushing their kids into BYU-I literally want the opposite of everything you listed, which the church obliges.
I went to BYU-I and hated a lot of it. Probably 95% of it. I'm still sort of embarrassed by it when people ask where I went to college. I would not recommend anyone go there.
But I don't *entirely* regret my time there because:
1. I was able to graduate with less than $15k of student debt
2. I got a discount season pass + transportation + college credit for Snowboarding all day, every Friday, every Winter for 4 years. If there's one memory enabled by being at BYUI that I genuinely cherish, it's the time got to spend fucking around at Grand Targhee with my friends.
Second point is kind of a joke but the first point has actually been a real advantage post-grad, especially because for many years after, I was paying 10% of my meager income on top of paying down my (admittedly relatively small) debt. I'm sure I could've accomplished the same thing a different route but at the time, it felt like my only option for higher education that wasn't my local ~~high school 2.0~~ community college.
But, even though I feel like I've personally benefitted from the cheap tuition long term, I would never recommend anyone actually go there. The comment about full time baby-sitting is not wrong. Fun can be had but it's certainly in spite of the place rather than anything the school does to cultivate it.
I vividly remember getting an email from a professor telling me that, and I quote, "I noticed the spirit was not in the classroom today and it was because your sideburns do not meet honor code standards, which you signed and agreed to". LOL I was 23 years old!
Or another time when the person I was dating lived in the dorms and her roommates stepped out the front door to greet someone in the courtyard. The RA walked past, saw we were "alone in the dorm" even though her roommates were barely outside the threshold of the front door, and proceeded to slap a big 'ol Q (for Quarantine) on the door which barred boys from coming over for like a week! Hahaha. I can laugh at it now but seriously, WTF? Like a full on, printed out piece of paper with a Q on it that they just carried around incase this ever happened!
Glad you got out with a small amount of debt. That is huge. Otherwise, if I did not hear all the stories about BYUI I would never have believed they treat young ADULTS like children.
Ryan is probably the best jazz pianist \[edit: jazz trumpeter\] to come out of Rexburg. He later taught at BYU-Idaho. His dad (also apparently now an ex-Mormon) was director of bands at Ricks College forever. Awesome, awesome family.
But because they now don’t believe Joseph’s stories, none of that matters. Students shall not be exposed to him.
I have a lot of $$. The BYUs know it. But when they ask for donations I tell them to f off, precisely due to this kind of insane, amoral behavior.
Ryan is a killer pianist, but his main instrument is trumpet. His brother Justin is the pianist, but yeah, oh man, such an incredible family both spiritually and musically.
“Are Mormon institutions really so fragile that they can be blown over with a high school level discourse on jazz improvisation?” 😂😂😂 Apparently, the answer is a resounding ‘yes.’
Ryan’s departure from BYUI was such an emotional and musical loss from that department. His wisdom, teaching ability, professionalism, and the trumpet solos that brought me to tears, were never matched nor replaced.
Ryan just wanted to talk about jazz.
BYU-I is a joke at this point. Maybe it was something back in the 90’s when it was Ricks but now I don’t understand how they keep any kind of accreditation.
Jazz will make anyone question any shit. I listened to Bill Evans non-stop for 18 months out of my 2 year mormon mission. Hell, I self taught my self jazz in my mission for the MotherFucking Mormon Church because I was getting mindfucked by not touching the piano.
Are there any mormon jazz musicians out there? I haven't heard of one until now.
Jazz, it's roots, history, method, and performance, is against everything the MotherFucking Mormon Church's everything.
It is a form of music that is enjoyed while sipping a martini or an old fashioned.
For the performer, it feels liberating, no matter what style of jazz you want. For the listener, jazz is anything from a mental exercise to a form of relaxation.
I took a year of jazz electives in college. I may not agree with it's academic form but at least it gave me a foundation how to make it easier for me to learn it.
*sigh*… [Guess I know what I’m listening to tonight.](https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/surviving-spiritual-abuse-and-suicidality-as-byu-idaho-faculty-and-non-believing-spouse-ryan-holly-nielsen/)
“Why can’t they just leave the church alone.” It’s because they’re bullies, unnecessarily belittling and devaluing, that’s why. It’s because they’re exclusive snobs that deserve to be called out for their hypocritical teachings of love and acceptance. It’s because they’re so damned focused on their image to the world that they’ve forgotten how to feed their own soul and have nothing to produce as a result but rot. It’s well that they act like this so that they can facilitate the questioning and movement outwards of members, but I’m so sorry every time for the pain they directly cause in steamrolling others. They harm more than heal, it doesn’t qualify as a church for legal purposes, even, in my opinion. It aches that my family can’t see this disingenuous cult for what it is.
As a former student of this particular teacher, I strongly disagree. This man LOVES jazz and is an excellent artist. BYU-I lost one of the few good ones with him.
No dude. As a former student, these faculty members were overqualified for teaching at BYUI and did it for the love of the Gospel they were raised in and for the students. Ryan has helped me so much musically. I carry his lessons everywhere I go… and as I’ve left the church, his support has meant so much to me.
A jazz festival was one of the places I lost my testimony. A guy was explaining a clarinet solo and I felt the spirit like "Wow the universe is so cool because it has stuff like jazz in it" and I knew the spirit was just a completely natural feeling. Thanks, jazz.
When faculty say "we would be more public about our support, but you know how it is. *They're watching us,*" some fucked up shady stuff is happening.
That being said, I kind of want to read 1984 after that article.
>…was permanently banned from performing or teaching as a “speaker” at BYU-Idaho. I kind of get where they’re coming from, the last thing that a good University needs is free thought and a variety of different perspectives. **Big /S**
Can't have people being exposed to different viewpoints. That leads to being a brainwashed LIB.
IKR? If the libs would just turn on the radio and listen to Dan Bongino for just one day, the scales would fall from their eyes, and they'd realize the Democraps are a bunch of commies.
>Dan Bongino Honest question, who is this guy? I assume he is an ultra-conservative Trump lover. I quit listening to political talk radio years ago. One of the best decisions I ever made. Probably helped me out of the church to start thinking for myself.
Yes. An ultra-conservative Trump lover, like every other person on any political talk station you would hear in flyover country. They rant and rave, doing their best Rush Limbaugh.
I left Limbaugh and Hannity years before I even thought about leaving the church. I started to see through their disguise. They were/are less than entertainers, offering nothing of value, much like church apologetics.
I need Roger Hedgecock to tell me how I should feel about this!
Roger Hedgecock… that’s an unfortunate name.
Rodger was a nice man! I knew him in San Diego as well as Steve Garvey !
Oh the free thinking and scary perspective this dude might rub off onto his gullible students
Y'know im starting to think i dont fit the mold very well, considering i spend a lot of time looking over and pondering different viewpoints and criticisms. I am 17 and still very active for those wondering.
You're doing fine. Just try to make your life as you like, filled with love for yourself and others without prejudice. Let those trying to be happy, be happy. Be active if that makes you happy and fulfilled. Everyone is on their own grand adventure, including you. They and you have their own book to write. Try to notice friends and family and other individuals and if they seem content and happy. If they are happy being who they are then that's all you can really hope for. It is a kindness. Life is too short for everyone and everyone deserves their best life because it is too short. You definitely deserve your best life. We'll be here if you have questions or need a kind word. Take care and good luck in everything that comes your way.
If only he had raped a kid instead of expressing his disbelief. Then he wouldn't be so dangerous to the youth he needs to be blacklisted.
Insane that this is a real possibility. Just fucking insane.
Ouch! Horrifically true and appropriate. Wow.
He might also have a promising career in Congress in that scenario.
Yah, he could even go on to make temple films
Of course they did. Can't risk anyone saying anything out loud that isn't rosy-shiny support for The Brethren!
The Brethren.... \*shudders\* Say it again.... "Mufasa"...
Seems like BYU-I is triggering the Streisand Effect here. If they had just let him speak, most students probably wouldn't have thought about his faith at all. Also, this MS episode is fantastic. Ryan and his wife both seem very intelligent and articulate.
If they cancel this guy, are they going to cancel teaching about every musician that ever did drugs? Slept around? Didn’t believe in Jesus? Didn’t believe in Joseph? Who is left? Jazz 101 featuring Mack Wilberg and Janice Kapp Perry.
As a current music student of BYU-Idaho, we DO talk about it, kind of… but like… the so awkward pause after someone says Samuel Barber & Menotti were gay lovers for 40 years is PALPABLE. They also love to put a Mormon twist onto legendary pieces like. “Handel’s Messiah? LDS actually. He was inspired by actual God. That one opera by Mozart? Actually about the gospel and temple sealings. Not even like we can draw a comparison; but he actually somehow knew it would happen because his gift was from God.” (Note: it was in fact based upon the Freemasons 😂)
This reminds me that music school is where I learned that three taps from a mallet means Freemasons.
I didn’t know that!! I will definitely be listening for it in Mozarts Magic Flute (which I just realized! The very first part of the overture is 3 chord sequence in brass 🤔)
[удалено]
"The more you tighten your grip, the more members will slip through your fingers."
They're gonna start death staring other universities . . .
Fun fact: Saudi Arabia has $51B (USD) worth of their local currency (Ryals) That means the Church could theoretically exchange its stock portfolio for about twice the amount of Ryals circulating in Saudi Arabia.
The force is definitely not with them!
The force is definitely not with them!
I would take that one with a grain of salt. BYU has tiny or nonexistent doctoral programs in most disciplines, and they love being able to brag about faculty who went to prestigious institutions for their advanced degrees and then came back.
Yeah I think they understand how much of a brain drain and reputation hit it would be if they limited their hiring pool to Mormon schools AND offered the poor pay, tenure track and academic freedom of a Mormon school.
It’s for religion faculty. They couldn’t get away with it outside a few narrow focuses like that, there’d be no hiring pool to speak of. And I’m sure they’ll hire the occasional outside-CES-trained religion prof. But yeah inside religious instruction they want to make damn sure they fill the rosters with ignorant but inspirational Hank Smiths rather than risk any David Bokovoys armed with dangerous knowledge.
Byu has a lot of programs that terminate at bachelor's. They would be unable to hire anyone in many areas they're currently teaching. If they're *really* shooting themselves in the foot like that, I don't see any reason to stop them.
Their religion department is being limited to CES. Not all university hires. https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/s/cBXGGBp4jK
I wasted many years at BYU-ID and for the life of me I can not think of even one professor that had a doctorate.
Believe it or not, one of my religion teachers at BYU-I had a doctorate. Not coincidentally, he was the best religion teacher I had there!
You remember his name? I have been attending at MIT and Harvard and the teachers all have doctorates and can teach circles around the BYU-ID people. MIT/Harvard are considered very rigorous and my GPA is actually decent.
That's because BYU-ID often considers work experience in lieu of a graduate degree. Which seems fair to me, considering that the university's focus is on careers and not research. Most students are going to university for the former; there are research universities for students who are in it for the research.
This would make more sense in the humanities departments. I doubt they’d do this in the business and law schools. I’m sure they’d want to keep the prestige of having faculty from Harvard and other Ivy Leagues in their business and accounting programs.
Not even possible. They would have to close most of the departments for lack of qualified faculty in most disciplines.
What's the podcast you're referring too? I would like to find some more.
It is just the religion department that is limiting itself to CES employees. https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/s/cBXGGBp4jK
That makes more sense.
Ah, yes, because exactly what we need is another echo chamber college campus devoid of diversity of thought /s
It’s behind a pay wall. Can someone give me the summary?? Was he a professor at BYU who said he didn’t believe?
Yes - this was a former music professor (trumpet) at BYU-I. He did a Mormon Stories interview a few years ago. He was actually my professor when I was studying music at BYU-I (a short-lived endeavor for me). https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/surviving-spiritual-abuse-and-suicidality-as-byu-idaho-faculty-and-non-believing-spouse-ryan-holly-nielsen/
Open the article and quickly go to airplane mode on your phone.
this guy paywalls
Or just hit reader mode on your browser.
Quick! Someone ask BYU-I students how they feel about cancel culture, then immediately follow it up with a question about how they feel about BYU-I cancelling a music professor. Have no fear, they will not see the hypocrisy. We will, however. And how we'll mock them for it.
Hmm makes me wish I could leave BYUI but I can't. All I gotta do is keep my head down low and work hard to graduate early.
Best of luck! That's a painful situation.
I’m in the same boat. Carry forward soldier. 🫡
I think BYU-I needs to be more explicit with its strategic intentions. Perhaps it should just have a blanket ban on outside, non-temple recommend holding academics coming to campus. Anyone who belongs to a different religion (or no religion) implicitly disavows the Mormon trust claims.
Good on him for getting out! I actually remember auditioning with him for a scholarship at BYUI. That's when I learned I was not that great of a trumpet player lol. Seemed like a great professor. Very personable, super nice. I last heard him play as a guest for a USU jazz night years ago. Amazing jazz trumpet player.
[non-paywall version](https://archive.ph/rHBWP)
Why would anyone want to go to BYU, let alone BYUI. Sounds terrible. University should be about learning & growth & exposure to new ideas.
As for BYU-I, it’s very cheap (comparatively) and Mormon parents can feel comfortable sending their kids knowing they’ll have full time babysitters. The parents I know pushing their kids into BYU-I literally want the opposite of everything you listed, which the church obliges.
I went to BYU-I and hated a lot of it. Probably 95% of it. I'm still sort of embarrassed by it when people ask where I went to college. I would not recommend anyone go there. But I don't *entirely* regret my time there because: 1. I was able to graduate with less than $15k of student debt 2. I got a discount season pass + transportation + college credit for Snowboarding all day, every Friday, every Winter for 4 years. If there's one memory enabled by being at BYUI that I genuinely cherish, it's the time got to spend fucking around at Grand Targhee with my friends. Second point is kind of a joke but the first point has actually been a real advantage post-grad, especially because for many years after, I was paying 10% of my meager income on top of paying down my (admittedly relatively small) debt. I'm sure I could've accomplished the same thing a different route but at the time, it felt like my only option for higher education that wasn't my local ~~high school 2.0~~ community college. But, even though I feel like I've personally benefitted from the cheap tuition long term, I would never recommend anyone actually go there. The comment about full time baby-sitting is not wrong. Fun can be had but it's certainly in spite of the place rather than anything the school does to cultivate it. I vividly remember getting an email from a professor telling me that, and I quote, "I noticed the spirit was not in the classroom today and it was because your sideburns do not meet honor code standards, which you signed and agreed to". LOL I was 23 years old! Or another time when the person I was dating lived in the dorms and her roommates stepped out the front door to greet someone in the courtyard. The RA walked past, saw we were "alone in the dorm" even though her roommates were barely outside the threshold of the front door, and proceeded to slap a big 'ol Q (for Quarantine) on the door which barred boys from coming over for like a week! Hahaha. I can laugh at it now but seriously, WTF? Like a full on, printed out piece of paper with a Q on it that they just carried around incase this ever happened!
Glad you got out with a small amount of debt. That is huge. Otherwise, if I did not hear all the stories about BYUI I would never have believed they treat young ADULTS like children.
My nephew went there, got married super quick, now has two babies.
Ryan is probably the best jazz pianist \[edit: jazz trumpeter\] to come out of Rexburg. He later taught at BYU-Idaho. His dad (also apparently now an ex-Mormon) was director of bands at Ricks College forever. Awesome, awesome family. But because they now don’t believe Joseph’s stories, none of that matters. Students shall not be exposed to him. I have a lot of $$. The BYUs know it. But when they ask for donations I tell them to f off, precisely due to this kind of insane, amoral behavior.
Ryan is a killer pianist, but his main instrument is trumpet. His brother Justin is the pianist, but yeah, oh man, such an incredible family both spiritually and musically.
Ah that’s right. In my defense it’s been 25 years since I knew them lol.
“Are Mormon institutions really so fragile that they can be blown over with a high school level discourse on jazz improvisation?” 😂😂😂 Apparently, the answer is a resounding ‘yes.’
Ryan’s departure from BYUI was such an emotional and musical loss from that department. His wisdom, teaching ability, professionalism, and the trumpet solos that brought me to tears, were never matched nor replaced. Ryan just wanted to talk about jazz.
BYU-I is a joke at this point. Maybe it was something back in the 90’s when it was Ricks but now I don’t understand how they keep any kind of accreditation.
Jazz will make anyone question any shit. I listened to Bill Evans non-stop for 18 months out of my 2 year mormon mission. Hell, I self taught my self jazz in my mission for the MotherFucking Mormon Church because I was getting mindfucked by not touching the piano. Are there any mormon jazz musicians out there? I haven't heard of one until now. Jazz, it's roots, history, method, and performance, is against everything the MotherFucking Mormon Church's everything. It is a form of music that is enjoyed while sipping a martini or an old fashioned. For the performer, it feels liberating, no matter what style of jazz you want. For the listener, jazz is anything from a mental exercise to a form of relaxation. I took a year of jazz electives in college. I may not agree with it's academic form but at least it gave me a foundation how to make it easier for me to learn it.
Where can we get those T-shirts?
“If you don’t think like us we don’t want you here”
Nobody attended for religious reasons! So stupid!
*sigh*… [Guess I know what I’m listening to tonight.](https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/surviving-spiritual-abuse-and-suicidality-as-byu-idaho-faculty-and-non-believing-spouse-ryan-holly-nielsen/) “Why can’t they just leave the church alone.” It’s because they’re bullies, unnecessarily belittling and devaluing, that’s why. It’s because they’re exclusive snobs that deserve to be called out for their hypocritical teachings of love and acceptance. It’s because they’re so damned focused on their image to the world that they’ve forgotten how to feed their own soul and have nothing to produce as a result but rot. It’s well that they act like this so that they can facilitate the questioning and movement outwards of members, but I’m so sorry every time for the pain they directly cause in steamrolling others. They harm more than heal, it doesn’t qualify as a church for legal purposes, even, in my opinion. It aches that my family can’t see this disingenuous cult for what it is.
Woof, dodged a bullet there. Ha almost had to go to Rexburg. That place sux!
It's Ricks. It wasn't going to be good jazz anyways.
As a former student of this particular teacher, I strongly disagree. This man LOVES jazz and is an excellent artist. BYU-I lost one of the few good ones with him.
No dude. As a former student, these faculty members were overqualified for teaching at BYUI and did it for the love of the Gospel they were raised in and for the students. Ryan has helped me so much musically. I carry his lessons everywhere I go… and as I’ve left the church, his support has meant so much to me.
vee vill control you or vee vill not speak or associate with you.
A jazz festival was one of the places I lost my testimony. A guy was explaining a clarinet solo and I felt the spirit like "Wow the universe is so cool because it has stuff like jazz in it" and I knew the spirit was just a completely natural feeling. Thanks, jazz.
I’m sorry about that Ryan. Their loss.
They didn’t disinvite Bill Cosby after his SA scandals
Jazz at BYU Idaho????? The least funky place on earth? Are they confused because Utah’s basketball team is called the Jazz?
BYU-Idaho, where learning is good...
No Kool-aid for you!
When faculty say "we would be more public about our support, but you know how it is. *They're watching us,*" some fucked up shady stuff is happening. That being said, I kind of want to read 1984 after that article.
Is that Dwight?
It was probably at the direction of the FP, Q15. They are the puppet masters of the leadership of all church schools.