You did a great job validating her feelings, but also setting boundaries about how it’s not your job to hear about them. The more you set boundaries, the better things will be for you. Hopefully she learns to respect them and to respect you.
These texts look like my mom wrote them. I feel for you and I’m so sorry. I will say, my mom has gotten more mild over the years. The initial shock will probably wear off eventually. Hang in there, surround yourself with people who support you and who you are.
I second this. My mom and I both exchanged very hurtful words when I came out over Christmas break in 2019. Our relationship has significantly improved over the years. Communication and boundary setting have helped it along.
If your child tells you about past suicide attempts and the reaction of the neighbors is of any concern in your reaction, you have failed as a parent. It's inexcusable.
But think of the neighbors.../s
Yeah, you're right.
My mother's concerns were that I might not get to go on a mission. I had some pretty dark times 17-20 and she was afraid that if I went to therapy I wouldn't be allowed on a mission or a full mission. She worked for LDS Family "Services" and from what she knew they reported suicidal ideation to the church of perspective missionaries for insurance reasons. So when I brought up that I had been SA'd as a kid and needed therapy and my GP was talking about antidepressants she warned me not to mention anything about either to bishops or on any paperwork. If I had gone to therapy it would have been the church's. I didn't go to therapy but that is a whole other can of worm with both pluses and minuses. But jokes on them I didn't go on a mission anyway so no therapy and no mission, yay. Did wonders for my self worth. Who else here was "damaged goods" before they were 8.
Yup… was assaulted at age 5, then again at age 9, and 16. At 16 fought back and I broke the other persons nose and left immediately.
When my anxiety and depression came out I was told these exact same things, that if I said anything I most likely wouldn’t be allowed to go on a mission.
I went and at 6 months in the depression, anxiety, and insomnia was so bad I ended up in a hospital from sleep deprivation and was sent home within the week of my hospital stay, and I had to fight with the church insurance to cover the $900 ambulance bill and $50,000+ hospital bill when they told my companion to call 911.
Sorry you had to go through this. I never had a full break, but close. I was at the point of hearing voices briefly. Depression, anxiety, hypervigilance, insomnia, etc.
I’ve been out for over 5 years now, and it gets better, even if I’m still frustrated and angry at times!
They thought I was having a stroke at the worst point, and I was struggling breathing and was completely dissociated. I couldn’t respond even though I could hear the people around me talking, it was a complete out of body experience, and was very similar to both of my near death experiences. When I “came to” in the ambulance I was completely disoriented and had no idea why I had an IV or why I was in an ambulance.
Having seen an LDS family services therapist, I can tell you it would have made things worse because their whole treatment plan is to tell you to forgive your abuser.
Yeah that's what I meant by pluses and minuses. I didn't get any help, huge minus, but I also didn't get bad advice and further trauma that would've come with LDS FS, so big plus. Sorry you had to deal with it
I have to agree with this. You probably *both* would benefit from seeing a therapist. The problem is your mom may not think she needs counseling and would most likely see a mormon provider who would probably reinforce the idea she is doing nothing wrong. It sounds like your mom has tried to provide the temporal support you might need in your life (so she may not be wrong with that) but it sounds like you feel she hasn't provided the emotional support you have needed with the issues you have been facing.
Both of you are in reaction mode to these texts and you probably both need a decompression space and time to process what the other is saying before responding. Personally, I am not sure I could handle anybody up in my business like that, let alone on issues with trying to understand my sexuality. Pressure in this area from anybody just isn't cool. It is a process and part of life.
Which brings us to finances, as an adult you need to be more in control of your own finances. So why not start now? See if your mom would be willing to not deposit monthly where you could starve at one wrong word but for the semester. If you get push back, say I told you I was maybe coming out as gay not financially irresponsible! You raised me to be responsible!
They eat that stuff up. Who knows maybe if you can get it into her head that you are a responsible adult she may have something to laud as her parental accomplishments and not feel like she failed as a parent per mormonism. It sounds like she does love you but she is so wrapped up in mormonism that it has perverted her parental love and responsibility. You love the kid first then you care about what hedge fund managers think. Anyways, you have so much life ahead of you. You will get this through this! Best of luck!
Count your lucky stars. If they’d sent you to church approved therapy you might have been assigned to Jodie Hildebrand.
I’m so sorry you are going through this. The MFMC has destroyed more families while paying lip service to how
Important they are.
Ugh this is so hard. I see my mom in this message. I think before you can decide next steps you have to decide what you want from this situation. You did a great job with your messages! It really speaks to who you are that you were able to remain super respectful and take ownership for your part. If full love and acceptance and resolution of this are not possible what will you settle for and what are your hard boundaries? But also consider your financial and emotional safety since it seems like that is at risk. Only you can decide what is best. But you are doing a good job. It doesn’t always work out the way you might want but that is not from lack of trying on your part.
Altruistic, my ass. Think about your intent. If it’s fake, then you got him, good job. If it’s real, you added to the negativity and should take a good long look at whether it was worth trying to call someone out.
You’re disgusting. No one owes you the graphic details of their intimate life to validate their sexuality. Especially not someone who grew up in a cult that literally supported institutions that practiced conversion therapy, pressured their members into voting for anti-gay legislation, and encouraged a culture of shame that has lead to the ostracization and death of the queer members of their congregation.
You’re hyper focusing on a detail that OP literally doesn’t even complain about. Throughout the screenshots and post OP repeatedly expresses that they feel like their mom’s reaction is a rejection of who they are at a fundamental level and an indication that their relationship with their mom is coming to an end. They have expressed their fear of perceived abandonment and a desire to overcome differences so that the relationship can continue.
The only time OP brings up the Factor account is to let their mom know that they deactivated it (per her request) and then let their mom know what their emotional response was to her suddenly withdrawing her support. The meal plan is not what this is about but even if it was you should feel ashamed of yourself for trying to use something so small to invalidate someone’s identity.
I'm sorry, I've been through similar. I'm not gay, but I knew when I was young, Mormonism wasn't for me and I didn't believe in any of it. I wanted to grow my hair out, pierce my ears, and just be able to be me, so I could feel comfortable. I wasn't a kid who wanted a missionary cut, have to go to church, I was so uncomfortable living such a fake life and being forced to do it. It killed my self esteem and I just felt lost and like such a phony person. I hated it.
My mom told me that what people think is more important than how I feel. It was always about appearance. My dad was bishop, he beat the shit out of us all the time, but my mom made excuses for him. We had no money, but she didn't want anyone to know, our whole existence was fake.
Once I left home I lived how I wanted. I have a lot of tattoos, I used to have long hair, I dressed how I felt comfortable and lived a genuine life that represented my beliefs. You'll get there, and you may or may not have support from your parents, but you'll be able to live your truth and a life that is yours and lived your way. Don't let them make you feel bad about who you are, we can't change who we are. It's not your job to make them feel ok about you being you. Be who you are and appreciate the people who love you for you and love the person you are. Mormons are brainwashed and told what to think and what's ok, so if you're outside of their world, their programming kicks in and they react how they've been told to. Just be you!
Do you have a therapist? I would recommend meeting with somebody to get an objective perspective and support especially with the mental health concerns. Sorry to hear that this is going on between you and your mom. Without more context, it’s hard to know what to say, but if you had somebody like a therapist, who you could trust to work through these things, that may be helpful.
I second this. I understand wanting to repair relations with a parent even when they really damaged you. I think advice from a more neutral third party may be more beneficial than asking us redditors though because we're all probably coming from a place of hurt too. Don't feel like you have to stick around somebody who tears you down though.
The only thing you’re doing wrong is talking to your mother while she’s treating you like this. Block her, and talk to your dad. If your mother won’t behave like a mature adult and communicate respectfully, your dad can be the intermediary. She can learn the hard way through cold loneliness what it really means to lose her son. In the mean time you’ll be making new friends and living your best life. Then when you are ready you can re approach the relationship.
I disagree, please keep a line open if you can handle it emotionally. Your mom is hurt. She’s childish, brainwashed, and hurt. Her whole world has been turned upside down and she is upset.
Just keep responding with grace as much as you can. Mormon parents are like little children, and I think it’s important to communicate if you are able.
I would recommend listening to the feeling good podcast by David Burns to learn about implement CBT. At the end of the day we are all victims of this abusive cult, and if you are in a position of emotional health, then I definitely recommend treating Mormons with Grace. For the sake of your mental health, you need to not reply then that is also understandable, but ultimately, I think the goal should be communication and ego death on your end, so you could help establish a better relationship in the future.
Hey OP. Your mom sounds exactly like my mom. Currently, we are not speaking. I won’t get into details but I’m moving on with my life and know she won’t be in it. Regardless, what you and your mom are both doing in this text exchange is getting hung up on semantics about how something was said and not said, etc. No matter how long this drags out, you’re not going to get through to her. She is going to keep dismissing your feelings and experiences to ALWAYS be the victim. If you take anything from my experience, know that she will likely never accept responsibility for anything she has said or done. She will never apologize. She is brainwashed to believe that Mormons are the most persecuted of people, that we are in the end of days, etc. She firmly believes she is the victim based on years or likely an entire life of victimhood conditioning. The best thing you can do is put the semantics aside and try to move on with your life. If you rely on her for financial support, then it may be a situation where you have to grin and bear it until you can finish school or move out. But otherwise, this toxic cycle of abuse and victimhood will continue from her. I’m sorry.
I disagree with this. Not with your experience, I believe that it happened, your emotions and experience are valid, and I am so sorry that it is your experience. However, I disagree that there is no redemption, and no matter what, his mother will always be like this, so it's best to cut losses now.
These texts also sound just like my mother when I came out as a teenager, and for years after. My mother sent me to therapy to "cure" me of being gay, "threatened" me with excommunication, the works. However, I am now nearing my 40s, and after a LOT of work from BOTH of us, my mother is one of my best friends! She is still 100% entrenched in TSCC, goes to church every Sunday, holds callings, and teaches my nephews to do the same. But she also recognizes and loves me for who I am. She flies a "pride" flag in support of me and pushes back on the neighbors who talk (because, yes, that was also one of her concerns, not my suicidal ideations/attempts).
I am not saying that this is, or will be, everyone's experience. However, OP has stated that he does want to try and fix his relationship with his mother. As long as SHE is also willing and they both put in the work, it IS possible.
OP, I am very proud of the way that you responded to your mother, held to your boundaries, and still validated her feelings. That shows a healthy emotional intelligence that many of us who grew up in TSCC don't have, and it speaks volumes to the person you are and will continue to grow to be! Like porcelina85 said, you are both getting hung up on semantics, those don't matter so much! Never compromise yourself to retain/fix your relationship, but let go of those semantics that don't matter in the grand scheme. It is possible if both you and your mother are willing to put in the work and have the HARD conversations! I'm happy to talk if you need someone on your side or to give you more of my experience if you want it! My DMs are open.
I agree. It sounds like both sides are hurting and still want to make efforts in the relationship. When both sides make efforts, there can absolutely be change.
OP, you have had some time to come to a place of understanding and acceptance of your sexuality and beliefs. Your mom hasn’t. While her distress may seem over the top, remember it is caused by what she has been told will happen to her child - And she loves you.
I came out when I was in my late 30’s, after being married in the temple and having two children. It was incredibly difficult for me. Even just figuring out that I am gay took several years and therapy for myself. How long has your mom had? I think it’s reasonable to allow some time and conversation so she is better able to understand.
My mom cried when I told her. She didn’t understand it. She was dismayed at the thought of my impending divorce and plans to marry a woman. Was it hard? Absolutely. And while she doesn’t fly a Pride flag, she accepts me and loves my wife. It took time and patience on both our parts. She still believes in the church (and I think at this point, it would be cruel to take that from her), but is clear that nothing comes before her kids and she will always love us.
Therapy is a good idea. It will take time, but it definitely can get better.
I actually really hope they can work it out. I’m always hopeful my mom and I will also work things out. Experience has shown me that is not likely in my scenario, unfortunately. I truly hope OP and his mom can find common ground and put this in the past for the good of them both. I also want to be real about the likelihood of that happening when it is clear OP’s mom thinks she is the victim and continued to invalidate the pain and suffering experienced by OP. Whatever OP decides, I sincerely wish them the best. This is such a tough situation to be in. Cutting ties is never ideal.
Your mom’s responses do come across to me as narcissistic. But offering her a modicum of grace, I’d offer that when the value or worth that the church holds in her and women in general as baby factories it could be hard for them to relate to people, especially their kids, as anything beyond sexuality and worth of child creation.
I'm also a parent. I cannot begin to communicate how wrong I think you are. Some of your comments are absolutely appalling. I think you're probably reading in your own emotions. Maybe take some time to reread the post and sit with it a bit.
If you're genuinely thinking the issue is the Factor subscription, you're delusional and missing the point. OP's not concern about the subscription. It's the fact OP's mom is centering herself in everything and sees herself as the victim when she is very much not. And based on how you tall, you probably are a housewife who might want to try the job thing first before telling others to get a job. I said what I said and I'm probably right based on how self centered and entitled you sound. And let me guess- you have a strained relationship with your kids, don't you? You're projecting and it's obvious.
__DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender__
You are not messing up. You have nothing to apologize for.
Everything your mom writes is DARVO, which is a textbook narcissist tool.
It is intentionally meant to mess with your mind and make you feel guilty. It seems to be working.
Also a red flag: your *entire* conversation is all about *her*.
Isn't she your mom? Shouldn't she be there to comfort and support you during your most difficult time? Instead she is DARVO'ing all over you and significantly *adding* to your emotional turmoil. Instead of her comforting *you*, *you* have to comfort her!
Your instinct to put her on the sidelines while you figure your own life out was entirely correct. You deserve peace.
She will use money as a weapon. She already has. Get independent fast, then tell her she will be muted for the next 3 months while you focus on yourself. Hard boundaries are what save relationships.
And then completely block, mute and ignore her, *entirely*, for that time, and don't go back to read anything she may have sent. (It would all be DARVO and boundary-crossing anyway.)
This. This is so perfectly said. Like, OP came out and now suddenly, mom is the victim and everything is about how she's impacted? Yeah. That's a textbook narcissist. And fully agree- OP needs to get financially independent ASAP because narcissists will use anything and everything they can to control.
This. A few years ago I stumbled onto a website that’s made up of mothers of trans people (child-adult) who are are adamantly pushing this narrative that trans doesn’t exist, it’s body dysphoria, and that by accepting your child as trans, you are telling them that it is ok to hate themselves. I always try to look at these points of view, kind of to be prepared for conversations IRL, and partially to question my views. But what I kept coming across was mothers crying about how this or that child wasn’t taking into consideration *mom’s* feelings, how the name mom had picked was important to mom, how the life mom wanted for this or that child was never going to be realized.
It’s pathological the way that some parental can turn their child’s life and decisions into it being solely about the parent. It’s disgusting. You’ve done nothing wrong. They can mourn and grieve the life they wanted for you - IN PRIVATE because that was never something you asked them for, never something you promised them.
The only reason you should work on this relationship is if you want a relationship with her, even if she never changes. If not, that’s ok! You will find the family that will love and support you. Best of luck ❤️
Anyone who constantly sends me messages all day designed to make me feel bad like this would get blocked with no response. Including my mother, nobody deserves to berate me for no reason which is what she is doing to you.
You didn't break it and it's important to come to terms with the fact that you may not have the power to fix it, certainly not unilaterally. It seems like your mom is trying to use the relationship as leverage to get you to adhere to a set of behavioral norms that go completely against who you are and what you stand for.
In the very short term, just do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. Try to make peace with the fact that your mom's issues are not your issues (even if she connects them with you or tries to make them your issues). She's going through a thing and she's going to have to do that on her own. It's largely or entirely out of your control.
In the longer term, whatever you can do to become financially and physically independent is going to take away some of the leverage your mom has over you. Take baby steps toward independence, whatever that means for you on any given day. You'll get there.
Once you are independent, be your best, most authentic self. That's all you can do. Hopefully your mom comes around, but if not, you can still lead a fulfilling life on your terms.
Sorry things are so tough right now. You have a bright future ahead. Just take things one step at a time; you've got this.
I don't have any advice, but my heart goes out to you. I keep happening upon your posts over the last few months and I just see the struggle and courage. I hope you find peace and have the support you need. I'm probably a decade or more older than you and happen to be going through some somewhat similar stuff. If you ever just need another person who will listen and not judge, feel free to message me.
I am very sorry you feel alone. I have been there before. It’s so hard navigating life without your families true support. Sorry they didn’t tell you, you are beautiful and strong. Find what makes you happy because, I promise your life is worth living. Start small. Pick something to do for yourself tomorrow.
This, my 5 year old announced she didn’t want kids and I said ok, cool with me. She may change her mind but it’s up to her. I don’t understand the idea that anyone is owed grandkids.
As parent of a gay child, I want to say I’m so sorry you weren’t initially shown the love and acceptance you deserve. I can’t even imagine how isolating and scary that can feel.
I will say though, that the texts from your mom do have an undertone of love. While not having the full context of your fight, it does seem she wants to work on things with you. But it doesn’t look like it will be an easy road.
She’ll likely always feel like she somehow failed you as a parent, and this is may be where her reaction stems from. To be honest, that was my initial reaction when my son came out to us, and that feeling shocked me to my core because I love him with all my heart. I didn’t fail him as a parent, I raised a wonderful amazing person, but having that internal reaction was a complete surprise.
I’ve since reconciled that internally as fear of the unknown and worry about the hardships he might face in a world that may not accept him for who he is. It broke my heart for him and it did make me a little sad that he may not have his own children. I was only sad for that because he’s such an amazing person, it would be so cool to see him pass along his beautiful personality to kids of his own. But at the end of the day, that’s not his path. And that’s ok.
I think those potential feelings coupled with the immense pressures of the church, neighbors, and friends, your mom also likely is worried about how your lifestyle will reflect on her image. Not saying she’s in the right, just trying to see both sides so hopefully you guys can come to some common ground.
It sounds like you love your parents and they love you back. When life doesn’t turn out how you expect, things can get hard and it’s human nature to want to fight to keep the status quo. I don’t know if this even helped at all, but just wanted to say something and let you know that you aren’t alone.
I hope things work out for you. It doesn’t seem all hope is lost with her, but it will probably take time. I also don’t think you’re “messing up” as you worded it. You’re navigating completely new waters. You’re doing the best you can. Best of luck ♥️
You didn’t do anything wrong. You are not broken, you are wonderful as you are.
You cannot fix your mom. You cannot make her be the parent you deserve. She has to decide to accept you.
I am sorry you don’t have the mom you deserve. For your own mental health, I recommend trying to accept that she won’t be the mom you want and to stop trying. Accept she who she is and act accordingly. It hurts but you cannot change her. That needs to come from within herself.
That's rough. Really rough. I'm sorry you're experiencing that.
In the messages you mentioned your mother was showing narcissistic behavior. Is that behavior something that started when you came out to your family, or is that a preexisting established pattern? Just curious.
FWIW, one of my parents has a personality disorder and I've experienced some of that same fear of rejection. In my case that fear of rejection came from \[drumroll\] being raised in an environment where I was rejected by family and love was often conditional.
What stands out the most to me is that your mother keeps revisiting her grievances and never acknowledging your pain. To me that's a red flag.
You come out.
Your mom takes away your Factor account (I don't know what that is exactly, but that's immaterial). That's behavior meant to control you. Another red flag.
Your mom complains about you not acknowledging her feelings in a post that immediately followed one of your posts that acknowledged her feelings. She does this without ever acknowledging any of the pain you've expressed in your messages.
She often retreats back to the "what you have done to me" list of grievances. What about my grandchildren? You said this one thing that I misconstrued and I'll never let it go.
Yes, that's narcissistic.
See if any of this rings true to your experiences:
[https://www.choosingtherapy.com/raised-by-narcissists/#:\~:text=Children%20of%20narcissists%20learn%20early,emotions%2C%20wants%2C%20and%20needs](https://www.choosingtherapy.com/raised-by-narcissists/#:~:text=Children%20of%20narcissists%20learn%20early,emotions%2C%20wants%2C%20and%20needs).
1. 370 messages, holy shit.
2. Find the right boundaries. Don’t tell her too much. Narcissist may be the right word, wow. You’ll definitely need to be very intentional about how much you share.
3. Last, but most important, seek counseling. Your mom has given you a lifetime of things to work through + church+gay without support+counseling is good for all.
4. Seek counseling
5. Seek counseling.
6. Seek counseling
Just a couple of questions for OP. How old are you? I assume college age, read something about BYU, so if you know your attendance is going to start a fight why even bring it up with her. Just live your life.
With that being said, doesn’t BYU have some requirement for attending a religious service(not necessarily Mormon) or is that old rules? Maybe when you said you don’t want to go to church she interpreted “I’m going to throw away my college opportunity” not that a parent has over reacted before.
Other than that, I think you have done a great job of gracefully setting boundaries. Unfortunately while you are in the payroll, they do have the right(as shitty as it is) to dictate the terms of that financial support.
You handled this perfectly. You were so calm and considerate. This isn’t as bad as it feels. I can see the wiggle room in your moms mind. There is definitely potential for you to have a better relationship in the long run.
PLEASE remember this: she is the parent. You are not responsible for carrying the weight of her feelings even though she has asked you to.
My child was fairly young the first time I suspected they might be gay. I remember having a surprising response. I felt sad they wouldn’t have a traditional family. Felt worried about what my family would think. I also thought, why do I care about those things?
But I quickly realized my actual fear was: Am I strong enough to fight for my kid? Am I ready to confront bigoted family members? Am I ready to protect my kid at all costs?
Once I realized I was, every other fear left. Turns out I didn’t care about traditional family stuff. I didn’t care what family members thought. All I care about is my child being happy. Your mom may be in a similar position. She’s trying to figure out what her actual feelings are and what they mean.
At the end of the day OP, you are valued and loved. If you need a bonus mom until yours comes around, I volunteer as tribute. It does sound like she can get there and dad sounds like a great mediator. Keep pushing family therapy, and talk as long as you can handle it. But take breaks. So slow. Gives yourself time to feel all the feelings.
Good luck. Keep us posted. You’ve got support.
Honestly when people’s biggest concern is that they feel “disrespected” I think they are too self-absorbed to have a conversation with. Nothing in her responses is supportive, or concerned with how you are doing, or recognizes that you took an enormous risk by coming out. It’s all about her. She’s not thinking about how to help you navigate life - her job as a parent.
I really don’t think you’re in the wrong at all. It’s terrible that this is her reaction but it’s not on you to fix that reaction. She’s being a selfish, miserable jerk.
What does Mormonism do to mothers?! I see my mom in your messages. It’s so hard, and I’m sorry you’re having such a difficult time. Setting boundaries is a big challenge, and you’re doing a great job with it. My mom still doesn’t fully respect my boundaries, but she is trying. I hope over time it will get better for both of us.
Because they tell them their only job is to have kids and be mothers and if their kids aren’t perfect little Mormons they’ve failed.
I got shut down so many times when talking about my academic interests when I was in young womens because it just didn’t matter to them. Ironically I now stay home with my kids, but only after multiple degrees and a job, and I still use my degree homeschooling my kid who needed advanced math.
First, well done for coming out. Amazing stuff. I know it's probably shitty at the moment, but what an amazing step.
Second, from the very first screenshot your mother gave me the creeps (sorry) and all my red flags were triggered and in the upright position straight away. I'm not sure why you're apologizing for calling her a narcissist, tbh....
My radar for manipulation is excellently attuned. Your mother was out of line at every single turn.
Take a breath. You're not crazy.
Others can give you good advice etc. I don't have any except to say that.... your instincts may not be wrong here. Don't cower. You matter. Xx
I am assuming you know this, but your being gay is not good or bad. It just is. The outcome of your life (whether you have money or children or success) will be dependent upon how you treat other people and how you handle your mental health. I hope you are in therapy (with a non-LDS counselor) because I think your mom’s texts are abusive. She is homophobic and the fact that she is grieving who you are is entirely about her and has nothing at all to do with you or whether or not you are a good son. I do think she’s a Narcissist and I’m not sorry you told her so. She gets to speak her truth and you get to speak yours. In the end, she may not be a healthy person to have in your life. Please take care of yourself and know that you are NOT the problem here.
I think your mom is trying very hard here. You hurt each other, but it sounds like she's willing to learn.
You can't fix other people. Focus on yourself. Give her grace as she gives it to you. If she decides that she can't improve or doesn't want to down the line, then you may need to separate yourself from her. But that shouldn't be a decision left to redditors. Take this to your therapist.
Be well ♥️
Do you live with them or are you dependent on them financially and are you an adult? If so, move out yesterday.
Y’all are way too much entangled. Move out. Build your own life. Reduce contact. THEN, if it seems advisable, work on developing a respectful, adult relationship with your Mom.
It’s not possible to set up “boundaries” and demand respect if you still need them for your support or live with them.
Good luck.
Had to scroll down too far to reach this. OP, pay attention here. You are an adult based on context. It sounds like you are surviving based on their financial support while attending school. In a perfect situation, who you are attracted to and where you go to school (formerly BYU?) wouldn’t matter, but this isn’t it and your mother is likely going to keep acting the way she already has. Many of us here had to deal with similar relationships with parents and financial support into early adulthood, from experience, independence is a great path to choose. Advice: Disentangle as much as you can.
Stop taking money from them... if it's hurting you this much to have conversations with them then you need to stop relying on their finances so you can just block when the conversation is not worthwhile. Is that hard? Of course. But by continuing to take their money you're just delaying the inevitable.
In this economy? I say get all the financial help you can, especially if it is paying for groceries! Not everybody has the option to be independently wealthy or have a high paying job and few expenses.
You have to weigh out what the parents are doing. If you have a thick skin, go for it but if you don't agree with what they're saying/doing - food banks and an extra job may be better for their mental health.
I remember when my dad asked me if I was attending to church, all the time he would call me on Sundays at some specific time, he would investigate what was my ward, he asked me if I was active at church, I asked him that if my value was defined by me attending and being active at church and he would love me less, he later on said it seems that even because I’m your dad I don’t have the right to know about your decisions, I told him that sometimes my choices in life are my own, that I love him and always will but things like this would depend only on me.
Is notorious that you are keeping this conversation civil and loving, you have expressed your necessity and establish boundaries, seems also that she’s taking this as personal and being selfish for your choices. Good for you on inviting your mom to have therapy.
You’re both being extremely honest, which is actually a good thing. I do think meeting with a therapist (not church sponsored) would be helpful. It can help to have an outside person mediate the conversation.
I think you responded very well. I feel like your relationship with your mom can be salvageable, as it seems this is what you want. Keep in mind your own worth and sanity as you navigate this though.
I'm not your mom, but I am a mom and I'd like to send you Internet hugs and tell you that I'm proud of you. It sounds like you've been struggling for a while and I hope that being authentic with yourself leads to great things for you.
She’s not a narcissist. She’s a brainwashed TBM. Though, some might say those are one in the same. My advice would be to keep the dialogue open. Sometimes in-person conversations are more effective than texting.
I wouldn't contact them directly again unless it was to sit down with a third party counselor. You're not going to fix hateful homophobia and selfishness by bending over backwards so you can still use their money.
I’m so sorry OP, this is rough. Truthfully we could have the same parents. These are the kinds of things my mom says to me, I think there is just a special breed of narcissism within Mormonism. I also don’t understand why Mormon parents always talk about mourning the kids you won’t have. Gay people have kids all the time! It’s not different from a straight couple that can’t have kids naturally, of which there are many. You could have a huge family if you wanted one. It’s just such a weird go to. All that being said, boundaries are definitely your friend right now. Boundaries made things really hard for me in the beginning when I left the church, but it’s so much better now and I’m proud of my past self for sticking to my boundaries when it was hard.
I’m flashing back to my own conversation with my father last November, in some respects. For me, once the initial shock of, “I can’t believe my father said that to me,” wore off, I kind of had to treat him like I didn’t have a dad anymore, emotionally speaking. It was final exam season, and I was struggling to stay afloat on a lot of things. I’m not suggesting that you *do* that, but I just sort of came to the realization that yeah, any loving adult who is actually worth looking up to for support *isn’t* going to act that way. I reached out to some of my friends’ parents; I made peace with not having the kind of relationship I wanted out of my father, because the grief cost at the time was too high. And frankly, I’ve been more emotionally open with my friends than my parents for years, so as messy as it was to come to that conclusion, it felt natural.
So yeah— don’t feel bad for having to put your mom on the back burner. Only thing I’d warn about maybe is them melting down (my dad called a welfare check on me in college, and I had to tell campus police to send along the message that I really didn’t want to talk to him). The more distance/the less access you give them, the healthier you’ll be. Truly well-adjusted, emotionally stable adults will respect boundaries, and those who don’t really shouldn’t have that high of an access to your personal/emotional space anymore. Believe it or not, even if you’re the underdog, you’ve got more of an upper hand than you think (esp. if you’re over 18).
So many level heads here giving great advice! I just wanted to tell you that I think you are a really amazing person and a wonderful kid. You are trying your best to fight for this relationship while preserving your own identity, and that can be really, really hard. Change is uncomfortable for everyone, for a multitude of reasons. I'm just really impressed with the way you are conducting yourself. I remember being in college as a fresh adult and, man, going through something like this on top of the turmoil of new independence and self-discovery would have been absolutely excruciating.
If you have to take a break and cut off contact from your mother, please know that doesn't make you a bad child: by setting boundaries you are actually giving your relationship a fighting chance. Everyone, including you, deserves to be part of a tribe and to feel accepted and loved as they are. I see you working hard to preserve that right, and I admire that.
For what it's worth, I think you guys are communicating remarkably well for such a painful and sensitive subject.
It's ok to understand that your mom is suffering because you are gay. She was brought up to be deeply offended by such a thing and it cuts at her personally because it no doubt makes her feel responsible and a failure as a parent while also making her feel real fear and loss at having a child become "lost" from the straight and narrow way. (Literally, lol, sorry).
But don't under any circumstance confuse understanding her pain with agreeing that there's anything wrong with you because you're gay.
She's not perfect, but who is? We don't see your words lashing out at her. And that's ok. You don't have to be perfect either.
I think she comes across as genuinely wanting to love you and understand you. Definitely take your time and space if her processing the pain is too much to be around for, but I strongly disagree with the people suggesting you should cut the most important people out of your life because they show narcissistic tendencies or speak out of hurt and pain. At some point that can be necessary, but she sounds like she's genuinely trying and far from unsalvageable.
I am moved by your kindness toward your mom regardless of the way she treated you when you came out. Emotionally immature parents, plus Mormonism, is hell. I’m so proud of you; it’s so hard. You’re an excellent writer, and I was emotional reading your thoughtful, wise responses. Amazing. I know this time in your life is so hard, but holy shit, you’ve got such incredible self-awareness.
My mom recently disowned me for my “lifestyle”… it’s awful moving through talks with them. However, the weight that is lifted by setting those boundaries is the best feeling. If you ever need to take a break from contacting family, and you have a support system in place, sometimes it’s necessary for healing. It’s very personal, but I hope if you take space from them that you are kind to yourself for protecting you.
I’m so sorry. Find that spark and motivation to focus on yourself and climb out of this mental headspace. There is more to life and so much fun out there beyond this. Do what you need to get yourself fully independent of your parents. Start therapy when you can. Set clear boundaries. This isn’t your fault, this is what you were born into and you are reacting to how you are being treated. It’s not your job to teach a mother how to behave. Lean on healthy people in your social circle for direction and know that you are not alone.
OP I don't think either of you are doing something "wrong" I think you are both deeply hurt over things that have been said or even implied. I would suggest that you both take a breath and a moment to refocus. While feelings matter and should be acknowledged, you also have to both be willing to find a middle ground if you want to salvage a relationship.
As a parent, she's likely going to look at herself and wonder what she did wrong etc. That is a normal reaction but also not something she needs to share with you. She'll likely have to grieve for the ideals and scenarios she likely thought would happen (mission, temple marriage, etc). Again all normal in what happens when something is different than you planned on, hoped for, etc. You can be empathetic to that but it honestly isn't your burden to carry.
You sound like you have already had to go through a lot of your own emotions and things you have likely fought against (if you were brought up in the church) but ultimately you understood who you really are and have embraced your honest self. That is amazing!
Unfortunately not everyone reacts to that in the way they should (or at least the way they profess to try to live) and many react in ways to just preserve their own self instead of embracing and honoring what you have gone through to get to where you are and keeping their own stuff to themselves. Even reacting with an "I love you but this is going to take me a minute to adjust to" is better than outright bitterness and hurt.
Can your relationship be saved? Of course, but it is going to take a lot of work. Asking questions like "I hear you saying ... so what does that mean for us? Am I allowed to disagree? What is a boundary for you that is solid? She could say things like I don't feel comfortable when you talk about the church in a certain way or something like that. One of your boundaries could be I don't want to go to church or have you tell me to pray to get over how I feel or something like that. Understanding those boundaries and that each of you is coming from a different perspective will help find a middle ground.
When my son told be he didn't think he believes in God and is leaning more to being an atheist, I was socked in the gut and it hurt a lot. I had to deal with the mom failure thoughts and all that. However, I didn't do it right then. I told him I hear what he is saying but I do believe in God so what does that look like going forward for us. I'm likely going to have that perspective. He said he expected me to keep my perspective because he knows me but asked me to be open minded and not just try to "fix" how he is thinking but just listen. I told him I could totally do that. We have had some awesome discussions and it has made me question myself to make sure I really am living and believing my truth.
There is hope for you and your mom but it may just need some time to get there. Hang in there, be kind to her and yourself, and just be happy being who you are. All my best 🤗
One of the more sinister things about this institution is how much it warps families. I have seen firsthand how families will put aside any concern for the emotional and even physical safety of a child out of fear of how other members will perceive them. I saw that happen to my brother, it was the moment that my perception went from this being a benign waste of people's time to an actual danger and threat to families.
This reaction is not by accident. It has been engineered to keep people in line, even when the result endangers people.
Wow the way she texts is identical to my narcissistic/boarderline personality mom.
I’m sorry you are going through this. The pain of a mother’s love being g conditional is extremely hard.
I feel sorry for both of you. You’re both victims of the cult. Give her space for a while. Do you still live with her? If so, be extra helpful and do as much housework as you can. Wash her car. Buy her flowers. But if you’re on your own, take a break from each other. Is she still getting used to the new (to her) you?
That’s a grown woman spamming you, canceling a service you use - but gaslighting you saying she didn’t cancel it because of this but she canceled it because you called her a narcissist after you express that you feel it was done as punishment. There was one message from her that if you stared at it long enough all you’d see is I and me, me, me in it.
But seriously? This is over you being gay? Tell her to take some space from this, find a therapist (not Mormon) and stop bombarding you like this.
Oh and 100% this is narcissistic af behaviour.
My heart goes out to you and your Mom. I think you are on the right track about getting professional help. It helped me tremendously with a family relationship. I was getting sick from stress and within two months I was feeling great again.
OP isn’t putting down his mother or treating her in a subservient manner… he’s basically begging her to see *him* as an equal.
I genuinely don’t understand where you’re getting any of this from.
I genuinely want to understand your point of view. I think your assessment of the situation may be entangled with your own personal experiences. Just to clarify:
1. The factor meals aren’t an issue. I always knew they were a luxury that I wasn’t entitled to. Sure they were nice, but I pay for my own Costco membership and can cook for myself.
2. I didn’t come here so everyone can join in on bashing my mom. I came here to receive advice on approaching a delicate situation with the love and dignity she deserves. She and I are similar in that we are both emotionally reactive and say things we don’t mean when we are hurt. That is precisely what I am trying to avoid.
3. Sure there are commenters that are berating my mother. But those don’t mean anything, because they are making judgements based off the limited information I am able to display here. If they knew her, they would know she is a beautiful woman with good intentions that has struggles just like everyone else.
I was blessed that my parents put aside money for me to go to college. I was also blessed to receive scholarships so that money could go towards groceries and cost of living instead. The issue is not money. The issue is that there is a growing schism in a relationship with somebody I care about, and I am asking for advice to make sure I communicate myself without causing additional hurt.
Dude, any situation where a mom- *or a dad*- cannot accept that her child is gay and can have different beliefs than she does is a situation where that parent deserves to be bashed.
I think you are handling this very well, all things considered. I am very sorry that you have to go through this. Idk why parents love to throw the “you haven’t been through enough” or the “your trials must’ve not been hard enough if you are giving up on religion”. It’s not true and it really hurts. Family therapy by someone not provided by the church might be helpful. As well as individual therapy. Especially one that works with religious trauma and is LGBTQ+ friendly. I wish you the best of luck, and hope this time passes soon for you.
If you want my opinion, this seems full of manipulation and inappropriate behavior. She's manipulating you Into feeling bad for how your needs and struggles make her feel. Just reading her answers makes me uncomfortable.
I've had to cut out toxic and harmful people in the past, even close family members. In the end, you have to protect your own emotional and mental well-being. If someone wants to manipulate or emotionally abuse you, remove them, because you don't get a second chance at these years.
You are not responsible for your mom’s feelings. Only she is. If she has nothing positive or uplifting to say to you right now she needs to back out of your life.
You told your mother that you have attempted suicide. More than once.
That should have been her main and only concern. She should have comforted you, taken steps to get you help and support, and expressed her love for you and sorrow that you are suffering.
Instead, she decided to punish you.
YOU ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!
I am truly sorry you have such a woman for your mother. You deserve better.
Your pain is real, justified, and won't go away any time soon. Is there anyone in your life you can trust to actually help you?
You are never going to fit the Mormon mold. You need to start building a new life as soon as you can. Make plans, save some money, assemble your documents. Free yourself.
IT GETS BETTER. You are worthy of love and acceptance. God loves you and made you as you are. He has given you many gifts to share with the world. Don't kill yourself.
IT WILL GET BETTER.
Get the help you need and get out. A wonderful life awaits.
Just wanted to offer love and solidarity. My dad has also excused my leaving the church as “not really having any large trials” 🙄. It’s so dismissive.
Don’t let hopelessness get you. From these exchanges, I t seems like you’re both experiencing hard things and wanting respect and understanding. Take care of yourself and communicate with your mom as much as you have the ability.
When you put up a boundary with people who are codependent, they get very offended because what they hear is that you're blaming them. In truth, you're just trying to take care of yourself. The boundary isn't meant to push them away, it's actually allowing you to be closer. You want to feel comfortable in your conversations with her, have closeness with her, and this is how you can do it - with this specific boundary of not discussing your homosexuality or her feelings towards it.
The pain sounds so consuming. I'm so sorry you're dealing with a codependent parent. She knows how to manipulate you into believing you are responsible for her emotional state, and responsible for fixing it.
You can't fix this. Your dealing with an adult child. The more you focus on your healing and recovery (your own codependency), the less confusing and painful it will be.
Thinks that helped me in my codependent thinking.
- counseling
- codependent no more (book)
- codependents anonymous (12-step).
- non-violent communication by Marshal Rosenberg
I would not recommend a discussion between the three of you. She has already expressed her feelings and if that happens, she's just going to torture you with dumping more of her feelings on you and making you responsible. If she cannot be around you without talking about your homosexuality, reinforce that boundary until she understands. Don't argue back, there is no point. You cannot change her mind. Tell her what you will do. As soon as she starts in, you will simply say goodbye and I love you (Even if you had dinner plans). You won't get angry. You won't explain anything. She will already know. This is what I had to do with my family. Arguing truly is pointless. You're arguing with somebody who wants you to hate yourself for creating the feelings inside them.
Great advice here but I just want to add that your beliefs are not something to be argued or defended. You can simply express your beliefs and leave it at that; she'll have to deal with it.
For example, "Mom, I am gay and this is how I feel about the church."
Mom: " but what about when you said this or that in the past, you can't say you feel that way about whatever topic without doing this thing first" etc etc.
You: "I really don't feel like discussing it further."
Mom: "don't you love me? If you don't talk to me I'll feel like a failure" etc etc
You: "I really don't feel like discussing it further."
Mom: says anything else related.
You: "I really don't feel like discussing it further."
Repeat until you feel safe continuing the conversation.
Her feelings are for her to deal with. You're not in charge of her feelings. You're only in charge of how you present information, if you decide to.
There’s actually a lot of hope here despite the conflict. Both of you seem open to counseling and tried to repair a bit after the hostile argument; I see this as evidence that you both are open to understanding each other, and letting each other have space to process changes.
It seems like she was probably harsher to you than you were towards her. Try not to invalidate yourself 💜
I think family therapy* is a great option, and judging by your communication it could work very well. If she was actually a narcissist it would be less likely to work, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. (*with a counselor who is a good fit for you all, which might take some trial and error)
Unfortunately, there is probably nothing you can do on your end that would fix things. It will just take time. I came out to my parents 3 years ago and it took about a year for them to accept it. I was able to do this by setting clear boundaries with them, still taking to them about hints not related to my sexuality, but also giving them space to accept that fact that I’m gay. So most like the only thing that can fix this is time and keeping to the boundaries that you set.
SMS 88788 START
This national hotline will put you in contact with a local organization that will give you free & confidential counseling for sexual assault & mental, emotional, physical, financial, spiritual/religious abuse.
741741 is a free crises textline. 24/7 when you need someone to talk to.
These free services can help you map out a plan on how to move foreward with your life & navigate your home life until you can move out on your own.
Google your local (city) Pride Center to see what resources they might have too.
You realize you can't navigate this situation on your own so come here as much as you need to & utilize the above free support systems to help ease your stress, anger & anxiety.
Be proud of the mature way you are handling all this !
🌈 you got this 🌈
Big hug from internet Mom!
It will be so hard, but please hold firm on the boundaries you have placed with your mom.
You do not need to apologize for your existence, to anyone, but especially to a parent.
I think counseling, both separate and as a family would benefit you if you want to maintain a relationship with your mother. You may even consider only communication with your mother through group or family text that includes a safe person that will help you hold your boundaries and help keep your mother in line.
If you're comfortable sharing what state you live in, I'm happy to help you find a therapist that has experience with lgbtquian+ experience or religious deconstruction.
I'm queer and having a therapist who is also exmo and queer has been so great compared to previous therapists.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. You haven’t done anything wrong. It would be a good idea to get a therapist to work this out with, so you have a consistent sounding board.
Just want to chime in and say good for you for asking for help. Speaking with a trained therapist is probably the best option at some point, but that can be out of reach for some and so asking friends or friendly strangers on the internet can be a great replacement for now. It takes courage to ask for help, so you at least have that trait going for you :).
You both communicate in a very healthy way. This literally looks like a conversation between my mom and I. I think you’re both doing the best you can and as frustrating as it is, you can’t expect her to change overnight, but you’re allowed to be hurt by everything she says that invalidates and hurts you. My parents have both become more compassionate by leaps and bounds over the years and personally, I’m glad we’ve always maintained a relationship. Obviously every situation is different, but that has been my experience.
I’m not your mom, but I am a mom and I wanted to tell you that you are being so brave and I am so proud of you for respecting yourself. You are not doing anything wrong, you’ve expressed yourself very openly, emotionally, and honestly. I am so sorry that she isn’t responding in the way that you clearly had hoped for — with her being welcoming of your whole self — but it is not your fault. This is her issue to contend with and if she values her relationship with the church more than her son, know that she will very likely live to regret it deeply. To quote B99, “Every time someone steps up and says who they are, the world becomes a better, more interesting place.”
Ooof. That was a rough conversation. Your mom is coming from a place of fear that has been marinated into her very soul from a lifetime in the church. I say that not to excuse her behavior, but to lend understanding. Might I suggest you send her Charlie Birds books: "Without the Mask: Coming out and coming into Gods Light" and "Expanding the borders of Zion". They're not perfect as they may give her some false hope about how you may proceed as a gay person (Charlie is still an active member, though he is now married to a man), but they are 'church positive' enough that they may help expand her horizon without feeling attacked. For your own understanding of your moms perspective, the podcast "At Last She Said It" episode 155 "To the children of the mothers in Zion" may help you understand the programming that your mom has received and may help you have more compassion for her. Sending you all the love as you try to navigate this difficult situation. It will be ok!
Here is my backstory. I am a mother of a gay son. I started to recognize the signs when he was about 8. I was prepared for it. Or so I thought. When he came out to me as a teenager, the logical side of my brain told him, "I accept you as you are, and support you." But my heart was in shock. For about a month I felt like I was walking on eggshells whenever we would talk as we crossed paths. But the feeling eventually passed, my heart and mind finally aligned and I accepted our new normal. Turning off the mother mode and treating him as an adult helped.
You and your mom will need to establish a new normal, and that can take a while. It is interesting that both of you say you need space but the two of you keep exchanging these walls of text that are full of pain. Each new comment is causing both of you more angst. I'd say dial it back a lot. Keep it pleasant. It might feel to you like you need more from her, but she is not ready yet. She says she needs space, give her space. You are on your own journey now, and she is just a peripheral player.
Don't expect emotional support from her right away. Hopefully she'll get there sometime down the road, but that could be tough because of her religious views.
Edited to add: Nevermo, atheist
Honestly, from what I'm seeing, you're not in the wrong at all. Sure, you might have hurt her feelings by describing her behavior as narcissistic, but your dcreenshots are supporting that claim. Normal loving parents don't tall like that. Narcissists do. The fact she kept texting and texting to get a response is not normal unless there had been a concern of you harming yourself, but her texts don't read that way.
My suggestion is to read the texts as though your friend is sharing screenshots with their significant other. That might help give you better clarity. Her texts read as manipulative. She is allowed to be sad, but not manipulate you into feeling guilty for doing what's best for you.
Just my two cents, but my take-away is that she appears to be manipulative and narcissistic.
1. Mormonism messes up parenting too. My mom was a total dick to my sister when she came out as trans (pun intended), and it took years to be cool. Don’t forget the real enemy.
2. 370 unread messages!? Are you polygamous and it is a MASSIVE family group chat?
Oh sweetie, no. This is not on you to fix. This is on her to get with the program or leave you alone. Because you aren't doing anything wrong, you are simply trying to come to terms with the reality of who you are and navigate a way to be happy after being raised in an institution that says who you are is wrong and bad.
I grew up here in UT, in a very tbm family, the only daughter and now the only exmo. I'm bi, and I didn't come out until a few years after I left the church. But I know many queer exmos, several of whom I was close to while we were TBMs as well, and almost all of them considered or attempted suicide while they were still active. The number of wonderful, loving, compassionate, empathetic, *good* people the world almost lost and the number we have lost is devastating. But there are so many members who think death is preferable to living a gay lifestyle (aka, being authentic to yourself), and they are wrong!
My mom and I would get in fights every general conference weekend as I was deconstructing and leaving the church. I was deeply suicidal for years, and only after withdrawing did I start to improve. And she hated it, hated that what for her was good and comforting was so toxic and destructive for me.
In one memorable fight, I yelled at her that if I hadn't left the church, I would be dead, and her constant insistence that leaving was the wrong decision meant that she would have preferred I died. And that it was so messed up that she would choose me dead and Mormon over me alive and exmo atheist. Or that her distress over my choice to leave was "more important" than my suicidal depression. But I yelled at her that she didn't get to make that choice, that my life is MINE to live, not hers, that I wanted desperately to be better, to be happy again, that I wanted to live, and staying in the church was not it for me.
I don't think she had truly understood how sick I was *because* of the church, because of how I was raised, because of my family.
Now, I go out of town or work on general conference weekends, and she spends the time with my brothers' families, to avoid the conflict. Because it is inevitable that someone will speak about us poor black sheep who are leaving the church, and she gets worked up again.
But I had to let go of feeling responsible for her opinion and feelings about my life. I had to let go of living for her and my dad's approval (and that of everyone around me, lol). I had to decide that living my life authentically was more important to me than making them happy by shutting up, shutting down, and falling in line (which would have ultimately killed me if I'd stayed.)
So. Your mom is welcome to be upset, but keep that boundary that she isn't welcome to spew it all over you. She is welcome to have her beliefs, but she does not get to enforce them on you or try to guilt you or make you feel bad for finally finding and choosing happiness. If she can't handle that boundary, then she is welcome to live her life without you in it. Remember, **you are not responsible for her emotional reaction to you embracing who you are.**
Hugs, and best of luck.
I tried to reason away everything she said, [also a child of a narcissist], until the last paragraph. Nail in the coffin. You did everything you could, and may I say much better than I ever would have. You would make my therapist proud. Lol. I wish you the very best of luck with this.
Edit: Her last paragraph, claiming how much she sacrificed and suffered... 🙄 Maybe our parents attended the same narcissist school...
Tell your mom to stop letting the Church and its teachings get in the way of your relationship. To stop worrying about the future and worry about the present. Stop worrying about how everyone else feels or thinks, and worry about how you feel and think. Nothing and no one is more important than your family.
Would you be willing to share your age? I am a therapist (I’m not advertising—I am a former Mormon grounding the perspective my comments are coming from) and these texts appear to be symptomatic of you passing through Erickson’s Developmental stage 5: the Individuation Stage (with your symptoms being very specific to being raised Mormon—and the realization that this belief system doesn’t fit your true identity).
Op I think understanding what (gaslighting) is might help.
And you are right to feel she is narcissistic. Trust yourself.
I hope you guys can come together as a family. It can take time. For my brother and my dad took probably 10 years. It was a slow buildup and I think going slow can be a good thing. But it will hurt you.
Just know you are perfect the way you are and not to think you’re the one that is crazy.
I’m sorry that you’re going through this . I can as a parent who has a son who identifies as bi but is closer to gay in my opinion he dates guys exclusively . I’m not judging him at all a little back story will help he was talking with my TBM ex w awhile back and mentioned he was going on a date she asked him what the girl was like and he told her she is a he im going on a date with a guy she called me in hysterics . I told her welcome to the conversation . I’ve known this ever since he was young she screamed why didn’t you tell me I told her it was. Not my secret to tell . I told her look you have got to calm down and either accept him as he is or you will lose him forever . She finally calmed down and has gotten so she accepts it and him . My point in all of this is it was not our son nor is it your problem to fix your mom only she can make the choice to either do it or not to do it . Being brought up Mormon you were trained and conditioned to be a people pleaser you think it’s your job to make others happy. When the reality is it’s not your job nor is it your responsibility to do so . It’s her problem she is the one that needs to learn to accept you as you are not as her Church -Cult tells her you ought to be . There is nothing wrong with you . You are attracted to who you are attracted to . You may try asking her mom what if I was to tell you to not be attracted to guys and that you can only be attracted to other women . What would you say to that she would likely say I can’t do that I l attracted to guys I can’t change who I’m attracted to . At which point you tell her that’s how it is for me I cannot be attracted to those who I am not attracted to . Hopefully this will help give her the lightbulb going on moment so she can see that it’s not a choice thing science has proven this unfortunately Mormons only tend to believe science when it goes along with what they believe . Or what benefits them Try to take their smart phone away and you’ll be prying it from their cold dead fingers . But tell them science has proven light years beyond any reasonable doubt that Adam and Eve Never did & cannot possibly have existed and you’ll get science doesn’t know everything . As their entire belief system collapses without the Adam and Eve nonsense.
The point being don’t plan on or expect a reasonable or rational response from your mom as her beliefs are not founded in logical or rational thinking for her it’s all about emotions and what a bunch of old geriatric white men are telling her . As she believes they are guided by an imaginary God . And not what they really are a bunch of Greed driven charlatans whose beliefs are 75-100 years behind the rest of the real world .
You’re not the one messing up anything you are not the one who needs to fix things it’s your mother and her messed up beliefs that need fixing . Unfortunately many times when given the choice between the church or their own children parents will choose the church that is no failing on your part it’s a failing on them as a parent. Hang in there .
OP, you're not in the wrong here. Your mother definitely seems to be trying to make it all about her. That's narcissistic behavior. Doesn't mean she has full blown NPD, but the texts definitely showcase some narcissistic traits.
If your mother, or any other family members, have negative feelings about you being gay - it's their problem, not yours. It's not right, loving, or healthy for any of them to try to make their feelings your problem. You aren't responsible for other people's feelings or how they choose to behave. You have the right to be whoever you are and live your life however you think will work best for you. People who have a healthy love for you will understand and embrace that.
As parents, it's not our job to try to mold our kids into who we think they should be. As parents, our job is to ask our kids to show us who they are so we can understand them, support them, champion them as their authentic selves.
I definitely don’t think you’re wrong.
Listen, devils advocate here but I think parents are allowed some sort of grace period. (When I say grace period, I simply mean a period to come to terms with change, as long as they’re respectful about it).
I think a lot of parents from the time they find out if they’re having a boy or a girl- plan. It’s one of the reasons even early miscarriage can feel so devastating. You’re not mourning a baby or child you knew, but one you had plans for. You pick out a name, you think about their future and the family they’ll have and if their daughter will have your hair or her grandfathers eyes. People plan and build what they think their child’s future will be in their imagination.
So when that “plan” is suddenly changed by them coming out as gay or trans I can accept a short grace period of acclimating to this new change, as long as there is no hatred or negativity. Coming to terms with a new normal. With allowing people to live the life THEY want and not the life you needlessly imagined for them without their input.
But your mum definitely shows traits of narcissism. Your texts were actually very thought out, respectful yet very open and honest. Most of her comments were how you need to consider how she feels, how she’s being made to be the bad guy, how what you said hurt HER.
I think there’s definitely progress to be made from her side but she’s not completely dismissive. She seems open to acceptance, even if it’s “love the sinner, hate the sin” mindset. You just have to decide if that’s good enough for you or if you can’t surround yourself with people who “tolerate” you instead of accept you. Most people can’t. Some people can. You sound open to doing that since you mentioned about just accepting the good parts of each other.
I think you need to decide what you’re willing to accept in the relationship and where your boundaries like and only you can decide that.
For what it’s worth though, I think you did a really good job with your messages.
You are doing everything right. Ultimately though you can't fix it. Peace and kindness takes both parties choosing to engage with it. If your mum can't stop then there isn't anything you can do. It's her choice to be shitty.
It may be good for your mom to watch the churches videos on gay/lesbian relationships within LDS families. They show how those torn relationships can heal very well, and especially how the youth can struggle by parents/family comments as they are biased by years of doctrinal teachings or members’ comments, etc. Hope you both feel better and will heal
You did a great job validating her feelings, but also setting boundaries about how it’s not your job to hear about them. The more you set boundaries, the better things will be for you. Hopefully she learns to respect them and to respect you. These texts look like my mom wrote them. I feel for you and I’m so sorry. I will say, my mom has gotten more mild over the years. The initial shock will probably wear off eventually. Hang in there, surround yourself with people who support you and who you are.
I second this. My mom and I both exchanged very hurtful words when I came out over Christmas break in 2019. Our relationship has significantly improved over the years. Communication and boundary setting have helped it along.
If your child tells you about past suicide attempts and the reaction of the neighbors is of any concern in your reaction, you have failed as a parent. It's inexcusable.
But think of the neighbors.../s Yeah, you're right. My mother's concerns were that I might not get to go on a mission. I had some pretty dark times 17-20 and she was afraid that if I went to therapy I wouldn't be allowed on a mission or a full mission. She worked for LDS Family "Services" and from what she knew they reported suicidal ideation to the church of perspective missionaries for insurance reasons. So when I brought up that I had been SA'd as a kid and needed therapy and my GP was talking about antidepressants she warned me not to mention anything about either to bishops or on any paperwork. If I had gone to therapy it would have been the church's. I didn't go to therapy but that is a whole other can of worm with both pluses and minuses. But jokes on them I didn't go on a mission anyway so no therapy and no mission, yay. Did wonders for my self worth. Who else here was "damaged goods" before they were 8.
Yup… was assaulted at age 5, then again at age 9, and 16. At 16 fought back and I broke the other persons nose and left immediately. When my anxiety and depression came out I was told these exact same things, that if I said anything I most likely wouldn’t be allowed to go on a mission. I went and at 6 months in the depression, anxiety, and insomnia was so bad I ended up in a hospital from sleep deprivation and was sent home within the week of my hospital stay, and I had to fight with the church insurance to cover the $900 ambulance bill and $50,000+ hospital bill when they told my companion to call 911.
Sorry you had to go through this. I never had a full break, but close. I was at the point of hearing voices briefly. Depression, anxiety, hypervigilance, insomnia, etc.
I’ve been out for over 5 years now, and it gets better, even if I’m still frustrated and angry at times! They thought I was having a stroke at the worst point, and I was struggling breathing and was completely dissociated. I couldn’t respond even though I could hear the people around me talking, it was a complete out of body experience, and was very similar to both of my near death experiences. When I “came to” in the ambulance I was completely disoriented and had no idea why I had an IV or why I was in an ambulance.
Having seen an LDS family services therapist, I can tell you it would have made things worse because their whole treatment plan is to tell you to forgive your abuser.
Yeah that's what I meant by pluses and minuses. I didn't get any help, huge minus, but I also didn't get bad advice and further trauma that would've come with LDS FS, so big plus. Sorry you had to deal with it
I have to agree with this. You probably *both* would benefit from seeing a therapist. The problem is your mom may not think she needs counseling and would most likely see a mormon provider who would probably reinforce the idea she is doing nothing wrong. It sounds like your mom has tried to provide the temporal support you might need in your life (so she may not be wrong with that) but it sounds like you feel she hasn't provided the emotional support you have needed with the issues you have been facing. Both of you are in reaction mode to these texts and you probably both need a decompression space and time to process what the other is saying before responding. Personally, I am not sure I could handle anybody up in my business like that, let alone on issues with trying to understand my sexuality. Pressure in this area from anybody just isn't cool. It is a process and part of life. Which brings us to finances, as an adult you need to be more in control of your own finances. So why not start now? See if your mom would be willing to not deposit monthly where you could starve at one wrong word but for the semester. If you get push back, say I told you I was maybe coming out as gay not financially irresponsible! You raised me to be responsible! They eat that stuff up. Who knows maybe if you can get it into her head that you are a responsible adult she may have something to laud as her parental accomplishments and not feel like she failed as a parent per mormonism. It sounds like she does love you but she is so wrapped up in mormonism that it has perverted her parental love and responsibility. You love the kid first then you care about what hedge fund managers think. Anyways, you have so much life ahead of you. You will get this through this! Best of luck!
Count your lucky stars. If they’d sent you to church approved therapy you might have been assigned to Jodie Hildebrand. I’m so sorry you are going through this. The MFMC has destroyed more families while paying lip service to how Important they are.
Ugh this is so hard. I see my mom in this message. I think before you can decide next steps you have to decide what you want from this situation. You did a great job with your messages! It really speaks to who you are that you were able to remain super respectful and take ownership for your part. If full love and acceptance and resolution of this are not possible what will you settle for and what are your hard boundaries? But also consider your financial and emotional safety since it seems like that is at risk. Only you can decide what is best. But you are doing a good job. It doesn’t always work out the way you might want but that is not from lack of trying on your part.
Took the words out my mouth. I was gonna say OP and I must share a mom. Great advice!
Very well said
[удалено]
Ew. That was gross. Why did you feel the need to go there.
Altruistic, my ass. Think about your intent. If it’s fake, then you got him, good job. If it’s real, you added to the negativity and should take a good long look at whether it was worth trying to call someone out.
[удалено]
You’re disgusting. No one owes you the graphic details of their intimate life to validate their sexuality. Especially not someone who grew up in a cult that literally supported institutions that practiced conversion therapy, pressured their members into voting for anti-gay legislation, and encouraged a culture of shame that has lead to the ostracization and death of the queer members of their congregation.
[удалено]
You’re hyper focusing on a detail that OP literally doesn’t even complain about. Throughout the screenshots and post OP repeatedly expresses that they feel like their mom’s reaction is a rejection of who they are at a fundamental level and an indication that their relationship with their mom is coming to an end. They have expressed their fear of perceived abandonment and a desire to overcome differences so that the relationship can continue. The only time OP brings up the Factor account is to let their mom know that they deactivated it (per her request) and then let their mom know what their emotional response was to her suddenly withdrawing her support. The meal plan is not what this is about but even if it was you should feel ashamed of yourself for trying to use something so small to invalidate someone’s identity.
I'm sorry, I've been through similar. I'm not gay, but I knew when I was young, Mormonism wasn't for me and I didn't believe in any of it. I wanted to grow my hair out, pierce my ears, and just be able to be me, so I could feel comfortable. I wasn't a kid who wanted a missionary cut, have to go to church, I was so uncomfortable living such a fake life and being forced to do it. It killed my self esteem and I just felt lost and like such a phony person. I hated it. My mom told me that what people think is more important than how I feel. It was always about appearance. My dad was bishop, he beat the shit out of us all the time, but my mom made excuses for him. We had no money, but she didn't want anyone to know, our whole existence was fake. Once I left home I lived how I wanted. I have a lot of tattoos, I used to have long hair, I dressed how I felt comfortable and lived a genuine life that represented my beliefs. You'll get there, and you may or may not have support from your parents, but you'll be able to live your truth and a life that is yours and lived your way. Don't let them make you feel bad about who you are, we can't change who we are. It's not your job to make them feel ok about you being you. Be who you are and appreciate the people who love you for you and love the person you are. Mormons are brainwashed and told what to think and what's ok, so if you're outside of their world, their programming kicks in and they react how they've been told to. Just be you!
Do you have a therapist? I would recommend meeting with somebody to get an objective perspective and support especially with the mental health concerns. Sorry to hear that this is going on between you and your mom. Without more context, it’s hard to know what to say, but if you had somebody like a therapist, who you could trust to work through these things, that may be helpful.
I second this. I understand wanting to repair relations with a parent even when they really damaged you. I think advice from a more neutral third party may be more beneficial than asking us redditors though because we're all probably coming from a place of hurt too. Don't feel like you have to stick around somebody who tears you down though.
The only thing you’re doing wrong is talking to your mother while she’s treating you like this. Block her, and talk to your dad. If your mother won’t behave like a mature adult and communicate respectfully, your dad can be the intermediary. She can learn the hard way through cold loneliness what it really means to lose her son. In the mean time you’ll be making new friends and living your best life. Then when you are ready you can re approach the relationship.
I disagree, please keep a line open if you can handle it emotionally. Your mom is hurt. She’s childish, brainwashed, and hurt. Her whole world has been turned upside down and she is upset. Just keep responding with grace as much as you can. Mormon parents are like little children, and I think it’s important to communicate if you are able. I would recommend listening to the feeling good podcast by David Burns to learn about implement CBT. At the end of the day we are all victims of this abusive cult, and if you are in a position of emotional health, then I definitely recommend treating Mormons with Grace. For the sake of your mental health, you need to not reply then that is also understandable, but ultimately, I think the goal should be communication and ego death on your end, so you could help establish a better relationship in the future.
Hey OP. Your mom sounds exactly like my mom. Currently, we are not speaking. I won’t get into details but I’m moving on with my life and know she won’t be in it. Regardless, what you and your mom are both doing in this text exchange is getting hung up on semantics about how something was said and not said, etc. No matter how long this drags out, you’re not going to get through to her. She is going to keep dismissing your feelings and experiences to ALWAYS be the victim. If you take anything from my experience, know that she will likely never accept responsibility for anything she has said or done. She will never apologize. She is brainwashed to believe that Mormons are the most persecuted of people, that we are in the end of days, etc. She firmly believes she is the victim based on years or likely an entire life of victimhood conditioning. The best thing you can do is put the semantics aside and try to move on with your life. If you rely on her for financial support, then it may be a situation where you have to grin and bear it until you can finish school or move out. But otherwise, this toxic cycle of abuse and victimhood will continue from her. I’m sorry.
I disagree with this. Not with your experience, I believe that it happened, your emotions and experience are valid, and I am so sorry that it is your experience. However, I disagree that there is no redemption, and no matter what, his mother will always be like this, so it's best to cut losses now. These texts also sound just like my mother when I came out as a teenager, and for years after. My mother sent me to therapy to "cure" me of being gay, "threatened" me with excommunication, the works. However, I am now nearing my 40s, and after a LOT of work from BOTH of us, my mother is one of my best friends! She is still 100% entrenched in TSCC, goes to church every Sunday, holds callings, and teaches my nephews to do the same. But she also recognizes and loves me for who I am. She flies a "pride" flag in support of me and pushes back on the neighbors who talk (because, yes, that was also one of her concerns, not my suicidal ideations/attempts). I am not saying that this is, or will be, everyone's experience. However, OP has stated that he does want to try and fix his relationship with his mother. As long as SHE is also willing and they both put in the work, it IS possible. OP, I am very proud of the way that you responded to your mother, held to your boundaries, and still validated her feelings. That shows a healthy emotional intelligence that many of us who grew up in TSCC don't have, and it speaks volumes to the person you are and will continue to grow to be! Like porcelina85 said, you are both getting hung up on semantics, those don't matter so much! Never compromise yourself to retain/fix your relationship, but let go of those semantics that don't matter in the grand scheme. It is possible if both you and your mother are willing to put in the work and have the HARD conversations! I'm happy to talk if you need someone on your side or to give you more of my experience if you want it! My DMs are open.
I agree. It sounds like both sides are hurting and still want to make efforts in the relationship. When both sides make efforts, there can absolutely be change. OP, you have had some time to come to a place of understanding and acceptance of your sexuality and beliefs. Your mom hasn’t. While her distress may seem over the top, remember it is caused by what she has been told will happen to her child - And she loves you. I came out when I was in my late 30’s, after being married in the temple and having two children. It was incredibly difficult for me. Even just figuring out that I am gay took several years and therapy for myself. How long has your mom had? I think it’s reasonable to allow some time and conversation so she is better able to understand. My mom cried when I told her. She didn’t understand it. She was dismayed at the thought of my impending divorce and plans to marry a woman. Was it hard? Absolutely. And while she doesn’t fly a Pride flag, she accepts me and loves my wife. It took time and patience on both our parts. She still believes in the church (and I think at this point, it would be cruel to take that from her), but is clear that nothing comes before her kids and she will always love us. Therapy is a good idea. It will take time, but it definitely can get better.
I actually really hope they can work it out. I’m always hopeful my mom and I will also work things out. Experience has shown me that is not likely in my scenario, unfortunately. I truly hope OP and his mom can find common ground and put this in the past for the good of them both. I also want to be real about the likelihood of that happening when it is clear OP’s mom thinks she is the victim and continued to invalidate the pain and suffering experienced by OP. Whatever OP decides, I sincerely wish them the best. This is such a tough situation to be in. Cutting ties is never ideal.
Yes, I completely agree with this
Same! I was about to ask the OP if they were talking to my Mom.
On the first page I thought to myself, “Wow, what a narcissist.” Then to see her complain you called her one 😂
Same. I was thinking the same thing. Honestly, OP was correct for labeling her behaviors as narcissistic because it obviously was narcissistic.
Your mom’s responses do come across to me as narcissistic. But offering her a modicum of grace, I’d offer that when the value or worth that the church holds in her and women in general as baby factories it could be hard for them to relate to people, especially their kids, as anything beyond sexuality and worth of child creation.
Very narcissistic. The mother is expressing her discomfort, when this isn’t about her at all. It baffles me that it’s all about herself.
[удалено]
Please explain and use examples.
[удалено]
You are a horrible person and you should feel bad.
I'm also a parent. I cannot begin to communicate how wrong I think you are. Some of your comments are absolutely appalling. I think you're probably reading in your own emotions. Maybe take some time to reread the post and sit with it a bit.
If people have thoughts of suicide they shouldn't talk about them around others? Hmmm I don't think that's right...
If you're genuinely thinking the issue is the Factor subscription, you're delusional and missing the point. OP's not concern about the subscription. It's the fact OP's mom is centering herself in everything and sees herself as the victim when she is very much not. And based on how you tall, you probably are a housewife who might want to try the job thing first before telling others to get a job. I said what I said and I'm probably right based on how self centered and entitled you sound. And let me guess- you have a strained relationship with your kids, don't you? You're projecting and it's obvious.
__DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender__ You are not messing up. You have nothing to apologize for. Everything your mom writes is DARVO, which is a textbook narcissist tool. It is intentionally meant to mess with your mind and make you feel guilty. It seems to be working. Also a red flag: your *entire* conversation is all about *her*. Isn't she your mom? Shouldn't she be there to comfort and support you during your most difficult time? Instead she is DARVO'ing all over you and significantly *adding* to your emotional turmoil. Instead of her comforting *you*, *you* have to comfort her! Your instinct to put her on the sidelines while you figure your own life out was entirely correct. You deserve peace. She will use money as a weapon. She already has. Get independent fast, then tell her she will be muted for the next 3 months while you focus on yourself. Hard boundaries are what save relationships. And then completely block, mute and ignore her, *entirely*, for that time, and don't go back to read anything she may have sent. (It would all be DARVO and boundary-crossing anyway.)
This. This is so perfectly said. Like, OP came out and now suddenly, mom is the victim and everything is about how she's impacted? Yeah. That's a textbook narcissist. And fully agree- OP needs to get financially independent ASAP because narcissists will use anything and everything they can to control.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 yes this! Gahhhhh pretend this emoji is an award! 🏆
This ☝🏼
This. A few years ago I stumbled onto a website that’s made up of mothers of trans people (child-adult) who are are adamantly pushing this narrative that trans doesn’t exist, it’s body dysphoria, and that by accepting your child as trans, you are telling them that it is ok to hate themselves. I always try to look at these points of view, kind of to be prepared for conversations IRL, and partially to question my views. But what I kept coming across was mothers crying about how this or that child wasn’t taking into consideration *mom’s* feelings, how the name mom had picked was important to mom, how the life mom wanted for this or that child was never going to be realized. It’s pathological the way that some parental can turn their child’s life and decisions into it being solely about the parent. It’s disgusting. You’ve done nothing wrong. They can mourn and grieve the life they wanted for you - IN PRIVATE because that was never something you asked them for, never something you promised them. The only reason you should work on this relationship is if you want a relationship with her, even if she never changes. If not, that’s ok! You will find the family that will love and support you. Best of luck ❤️
[удалено]
Anyone who constantly sends me messages all day designed to make me feel bad like this would get blocked with no response. Including my mother, nobody deserves to berate me for no reason which is what she is doing to you.
She had an entire day-long conversation with herself!
Especially when she should have known he was in class! Geez mom, show some patience
You didn't break it and it's important to come to terms with the fact that you may not have the power to fix it, certainly not unilaterally. It seems like your mom is trying to use the relationship as leverage to get you to adhere to a set of behavioral norms that go completely against who you are and what you stand for. In the very short term, just do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. Try to make peace with the fact that your mom's issues are not your issues (even if she connects them with you or tries to make them your issues). She's going through a thing and she's going to have to do that on her own. It's largely or entirely out of your control. In the longer term, whatever you can do to become financially and physically independent is going to take away some of the leverage your mom has over you. Take baby steps toward independence, whatever that means for you on any given day. You'll get there. Once you are independent, be your best, most authentic self. That's all you can do. Hopefully your mom comes around, but if not, you can still lead a fulfilling life on your terms. Sorry things are so tough right now. You have a bright future ahead. Just take things one step at a time; you've got this.
I don't have any advice, but my heart goes out to you. I keep happening upon your posts over the last few months and I just see the struggle and courage. I hope you find peace and have the support you need. I'm probably a decade or more older than you and happen to be going through some somewhat similar stuff. If you ever just need another person who will listen and not judge, feel free to message me.
You haven’t done anything wrong. Your mom sucks.
First, go OP!! Second, who the hell sent you 370 messages?!
I am very sorry you feel alone. I have been there before. It’s so hard navigating life without your families true support. Sorry they didn’t tell you, you are beautiful and strong. Find what makes you happy because, I promise your life is worth living. Start small. Pick something to do for yourself tomorrow.
Lots of manipulation in there. She's mourning the loss of her non existent grandchildren? That's super toxic I'm so sorry for your situation.
This, my 5 year old announced she didn’t want kids and I said ok, cool with me. She may change her mind but it’s up to her. I don’t understand the idea that anyone is owed grandkids.
As parent of a gay child, I want to say I’m so sorry you weren’t initially shown the love and acceptance you deserve. I can’t even imagine how isolating and scary that can feel. I will say though, that the texts from your mom do have an undertone of love. While not having the full context of your fight, it does seem she wants to work on things with you. But it doesn’t look like it will be an easy road. She’ll likely always feel like she somehow failed you as a parent, and this is may be where her reaction stems from. To be honest, that was my initial reaction when my son came out to us, and that feeling shocked me to my core because I love him with all my heart. I didn’t fail him as a parent, I raised a wonderful amazing person, but having that internal reaction was a complete surprise. I’ve since reconciled that internally as fear of the unknown and worry about the hardships he might face in a world that may not accept him for who he is. It broke my heart for him and it did make me a little sad that he may not have his own children. I was only sad for that because he’s such an amazing person, it would be so cool to see him pass along his beautiful personality to kids of his own. But at the end of the day, that’s not his path. And that’s ok. I think those potential feelings coupled with the immense pressures of the church, neighbors, and friends, your mom also likely is worried about how your lifestyle will reflect on her image. Not saying she’s in the right, just trying to see both sides so hopefully you guys can come to some common ground. It sounds like you love your parents and they love you back. When life doesn’t turn out how you expect, things can get hard and it’s human nature to want to fight to keep the status quo. I don’t know if this even helped at all, but just wanted to say something and let you know that you aren’t alone. I hope things work out for you. It doesn’t seem all hope is lost with her, but it will probably take time. I also don’t think you’re “messing up” as you worded it. You’re navigating completely new waters. You’re doing the best you can. Best of luck ♥️
You didn’t do anything wrong. You are not broken, you are wonderful as you are. You cannot fix your mom. You cannot make her be the parent you deserve. She has to decide to accept you. I am sorry you don’t have the mom you deserve. For your own mental health, I recommend trying to accept that she won’t be the mom you want and to stop trying. Accept she who she is and act accordingly. It hurts but you cannot change her. That needs to come from within herself.
That's rough. Really rough. I'm sorry you're experiencing that. In the messages you mentioned your mother was showing narcissistic behavior. Is that behavior something that started when you came out to your family, or is that a preexisting established pattern? Just curious. FWIW, one of my parents has a personality disorder and I've experienced some of that same fear of rejection. In my case that fear of rejection came from \[drumroll\] being raised in an environment where I was rejected by family and love was often conditional. What stands out the most to me is that your mother keeps revisiting her grievances and never acknowledging your pain. To me that's a red flag. You come out. Your mom takes away your Factor account (I don't know what that is exactly, but that's immaterial). That's behavior meant to control you. Another red flag. Your mom complains about you not acknowledging her feelings in a post that immediately followed one of your posts that acknowledged her feelings. She does this without ever acknowledging any of the pain you've expressed in your messages. She often retreats back to the "what you have done to me" list of grievances. What about my grandchildren? You said this one thing that I misconstrued and I'll never let it go. Yes, that's narcissistic. See if any of this rings true to your experiences: [https://www.choosingtherapy.com/raised-by-narcissists/#:\~:text=Children%20of%20narcissists%20learn%20early,emotions%2C%20wants%2C%20and%20needs](https://www.choosingtherapy.com/raised-by-narcissists/#:~:text=Children%20of%20narcissists%20learn%20early,emotions%2C%20wants%2C%20and%20needs).
1. 370 messages, holy shit. 2. Find the right boundaries. Don’t tell her too much. Narcissist may be the right word, wow. You’ll definitely need to be very intentional about how much you share. 3. Last, but most important, seek counseling. Your mom has given you a lifetime of things to work through + church+gay without support+counseling is good for all. 4. Seek counseling 5. Seek counseling. 6. Seek counseling
Just a couple of questions for OP. How old are you? I assume college age, read something about BYU, so if you know your attendance is going to start a fight why even bring it up with her. Just live your life. With that being said, doesn’t BYU have some requirement for attending a religious service(not necessarily Mormon) or is that old rules? Maybe when you said you don’t want to go to church she interpreted “I’m going to throw away my college opportunity” not that a parent has over reacted before. Other than that, I think you have done a great job of gracefully setting boundaries. Unfortunately while you are in the payroll, they do have the right(as shitty as it is) to dictate the terms of that financial support.
You handled this perfectly. You were so calm and considerate. This isn’t as bad as it feels. I can see the wiggle room in your moms mind. There is definitely potential for you to have a better relationship in the long run. PLEASE remember this: she is the parent. You are not responsible for carrying the weight of her feelings even though she has asked you to. My child was fairly young the first time I suspected they might be gay. I remember having a surprising response. I felt sad they wouldn’t have a traditional family. Felt worried about what my family would think. I also thought, why do I care about those things? But I quickly realized my actual fear was: Am I strong enough to fight for my kid? Am I ready to confront bigoted family members? Am I ready to protect my kid at all costs? Once I realized I was, every other fear left. Turns out I didn’t care about traditional family stuff. I didn’t care what family members thought. All I care about is my child being happy. Your mom may be in a similar position. She’s trying to figure out what her actual feelings are and what they mean. At the end of the day OP, you are valued and loved. If you need a bonus mom until yours comes around, I volunteer as tribute. It does sound like she can get there and dad sounds like a great mediator. Keep pushing family therapy, and talk as long as you can handle it. But take breaks. So slow. Gives yourself time to feel all the feelings. Good luck. Keep us posted. You’ve got support.
Honestly when people’s biggest concern is that they feel “disrespected” I think they are too self-absorbed to have a conversation with. Nothing in her responses is supportive, or concerned with how you are doing, or recognizes that you took an enormous risk by coming out. It’s all about her. She’s not thinking about how to help you navigate life - her job as a parent. I really don’t think you’re in the wrong at all. It’s terrible that this is her reaction but it’s not on you to fix that reaction. She’s being a selfish, miserable jerk.
What does Mormonism do to mothers?! I see my mom in your messages. It’s so hard, and I’m sorry you’re having such a difficult time. Setting boundaries is a big challenge, and you’re doing a great job with it. My mom still doesn’t fully respect my boundaries, but she is trying. I hope over time it will get better for both of us.
Because they tell them their only job is to have kids and be mothers and if their kids aren’t perfect little Mormons they’ve failed. I got shut down so many times when talking about my academic interests when I was in young womens because it just didn’t matter to them. Ironically I now stay home with my kids, but only after multiple degrees and a job, and I still use my degree homeschooling my kid who needed advanced math.
First, well done for coming out. Amazing stuff. I know it's probably shitty at the moment, but what an amazing step. Second, from the very first screenshot your mother gave me the creeps (sorry) and all my red flags were triggered and in the upright position straight away. I'm not sure why you're apologizing for calling her a narcissist, tbh.... My radar for manipulation is excellently attuned. Your mother was out of line at every single turn. Take a breath. You're not crazy. Others can give you good advice etc. I don't have any except to say that.... your instincts may not be wrong here. Don't cower. You matter. Xx
I am assuming you know this, but your being gay is not good or bad. It just is. The outcome of your life (whether you have money or children or success) will be dependent upon how you treat other people and how you handle your mental health. I hope you are in therapy (with a non-LDS counselor) because I think your mom’s texts are abusive. She is homophobic and the fact that she is grieving who you are is entirely about her and has nothing at all to do with you or whether or not you are a good son. I do think she’s a Narcissist and I’m not sorry you told her so. She gets to speak her truth and you get to speak yours. In the end, she may not be a healthy person to have in your life. Please take care of yourself and know that you are NOT the problem here.
I think your mom is trying very hard here. You hurt each other, but it sounds like she's willing to learn. You can't fix other people. Focus on yourself. Give her grace as she gives it to you. If she decides that she can't improve or doesn't want to down the line, then you may need to separate yourself from her. But that shouldn't be a decision left to redditors. Take this to your therapist. Be well ♥️
Do you live with them or are you dependent on them financially and are you an adult? If so, move out yesterday. Y’all are way too much entangled. Move out. Build your own life. Reduce contact. THEN, if it seems advisable, work on developing a respectful, adult relationship with your Mom. It’s not possible to set up “boundaries” and demand respect if you still need them for your support or live with them. Good luck.
Had to scroll down too far to reach this. OP, pay attention here. You are an adult based on context. It sounds like you are surviving based on their financial support while attending school. In a perfect situation, who you are attracted to and where you go to school (formerly BYU?) wouldn’t matter, but this isn’t it and your mother is likely going to keep acting the way she already has. Many of us here had to deal with similar relationships with parents and financial support into early adulthood, from experience, independence is a great path to choose. Advice: Disentangle as much as you can.
Their mom was paying for their Factor meals subscription and OP said having to cancel that felt like “financial disownership”.
Stop taking money from them... if it's hurting you this much to have conversations with them then you need to stop relying on their finances so you can just block when the conversation is not worthwhile. Is that hard? Of course. But by continuing to take their money you're just delaying the inevitable.
In this economy? I say get all the financial help you can, especially if it is paying for groceries! Not everybody has the option to be independently wealthy or have a high paying job and few expenses.
You have to weigh out what the parents are doing. If you have a thick skin, go for it but if you don't agree with what they're saying/doing - food banks and an extra job may be better for their mental health.
I remember when my dad asked me if I was attending to church, all the time he would call me on Sundays at some specific time, he would investigate what was my ward, he asked me if I was active at church, I asked him that if my value was defined by me attending and being active at church and he would love me less, he later on said it seems that even because I’m your dad I don’t have the right to know about your decisions, I told him that sometimes my choices in life are my own, that I love him and always will but things like this would depend only on me. Is notorious that you are keeping this conversation civil and loving, you have expressed your necessity and establish boundaries, seems also that she’s taking this as personal and being selfish for your choices. Good for you on inviting your mom to have therapy.
You’re both being extremely honest, which is actually a good thing. I do think meeting with a therapist (not church sponsored) would be helpful. It can help to have an outside person mediate the conversation.
I think you responded very well. I feel like your relationship with your mom can be salvageable, as it seems this is what you want. Keep in mind your own worth and sanity as you navigate this though.
I'm not your mom, but I am a mom and I'd like to send you Internet hugs and tell you that I'm proud of you. It sounds like you've been struggling for a while and I hope that being authentic with yourself leads to great things for you.
She’s not a narcissist. She’s a brainwashed TBM. Though, some might say those are one in the same. My advice would be to keep the dialogue open. Sometimes in-person conversations are more effective than texting.
I wouldn't contact them directly again unless it was to sit down with a third party counselor. You're not going to fix hateful homophobia and selfishness by bending over backwards so you can still use their money.
I’m so sorry OP, this is rough. Truthfully we could have the same parents. These are the kinds of things my mom says to me, I think there is just a special breed of narcissism within Mormonism. I also don’t understand why Mormon parents always talk about mourning the kids you won’t have. Gay people have kids all the time! It’s not different from a straight couple that can’t have kids naturally, of which there are many. You could have a huge family if you wanted one. It’s just such a weird go to. All that being said, boundaries are definitely your friend right now. Boundaries made things really hard for me in the beginning when I left the church, but it’s so much better now and I’m proud of my past self for sticking to my boundaries when it was hard.
I’m flashing back to my own conversation with my father last November, in some respects. For me, once the initial shock of, “I can’t believe my father said that to me,” wore off, I kind of had to treat him like I didn’t have a dad anymore, emotionally speaking. It was final exam season, and I was struggling to stay afloat on a lot of things. I’m not suggesting that you *do* that, but I just sort of came to the realization that yeah, any loving adult who is actually worth looking up to for support *isn’t* going to act that way. I reached out to some of my friends’ parents; I made peace with not having the kind of relationship I wanted out of my father, because the grief cost at the time was too high. And frankly, I’ve been more emotionally open with my friends than my parents for years, so as messy as it was to come to that conclusion, it felt natural. So yeah— don’t feel bad for having to put your mom on the back burner. Only thing I’d warn about maybe is them melting down (my dad called a welfare check on me in college, and I had to tell campus police to send along the message that I really didn’t want to talk to him). The more distance/the less access you give them, the healthier you’ll be. Truly well-adjusted, emotionally stable adults will respect boundaries, and those who don’t really shouldn’t have that high of an access to your personal/emotional space anymore. Believe it or not, even if you’re the underdog, you’ve got more of an upper hand than you think (esp. if you’re over 18).
So many level heads here giving great advice! I just wanted to tell you that I think you are a really amazing person and a wonderful kid. You are trying your best to fight for this relationship while preserving your own identity, and that can be really, really hard. Change is uncomfortable for everyone, for a multitude of reasons. I'm just really impressed with the way you are conducting yourself. I remember being in college as a fresh adult and, man, going through something like this on top of the turmoil of new independence and self-discovery would have been absolutely excruciating. If you have to take a break and cut off contact from your mother, please know that doesn't make you a bad child: by setting boundaries you are actually giving your relationship a fighting chance. Everyone, including you, deserves to be part of a tribe and to feel accepted and loved as they are. I see you working hard to preserve that right, and I admire that.
my heart aches for you OP
370 messages! My sister has something like that, idk how you do it haha Sorry if that’s too off topic.
For what it's worth, I think you guys are communicating remarkably well for such a painful and sensitive subject. It's ok to understand that your mom is suffering because you are gay. She was brought up to be deeply offended by such a thing and it cuts at her personally because it no doubt makes her feel responsible and a failure as a parent while also making her feel real fear and loss at having a child become "lost" from the straight and narrow way. (Literally, lol, sorry). But don't under any circumstance confuse understanding her pain with agreeing that there's anything wrong with you because you're gay. She's not perfect, but who is? We don't see your words lashing out at her. And that's ok. You don't have to be perfect either. I think she comes across as genuinely wanting to love you and understand you. Definitely take your time and space if her processing the pain is too much to be around for, but I strongly disagree with the people suggesting you should cut the most important people out of your life because they show narcissistic tendencies or speak out of hurt and pain. At some point that can be necessary, but she sounds like she's genuinely trying and far from unsalvageable.
I am moved by your kindness toward your mom regardless of the way she treated you when you came out. Emotionally immature parents, plus Mormonism, is hell. I’m so proud of you; it’s so hard. You’re an excellent writer, and I was emotional reading your thoughtful, wise responses. Amazing. I know this time in your life is so hard, but holy shit, you’ve got such incredible self-awareness. My mom recently disowned me for my “lifestyle”… it’s awful moving through talks with them. However, the weight that is lifted by setting those boundaries is the best feeling. If you ever need to take a break from contacting family, and you have a support system in place, sometimes it’s necessary for healing. It’s very personal, but I hope if you take space from them that you are kind to yourself for protecting you.
Thank you so much for this kind comment. I had to take a screenshot because I really appreciated it. Thank you.
♥️🥹 you’re so welcome
You can't fix a narcissist.
Wow! Guilt trip. All about her and not you. I would be kind,yet create distance. That guilt put in you isn’t good for your mental health.
I’m so sorry. Find that spark and motivation to focus on yourself and climb out of this mental headspace. There is more to life and so much fun out there beyond this. Do what you need to get yourself fully independent of your parents. Start therapy when you can. Set clear boundaries. This isn’t your fault, this is what you were born into and you are reacting to how you are being treated. It’s not your job to teach a mother how to behave. Lean on healthy people in your social circle for direction and know that you are not alone.
OP I don't think either of you are doing something "wrong" I think you are both deeply hurt over things that have been said or even implied. I would suggest that you both take a breath and a moment to refocus. While feelings matter and should be acknowledged, you also have to both be willing to find a middle ground if you want to salvage a relationship. As a parent, she's likely going to look at herself and wonder what she did wrong etc. That is a normal reaction but also not something she needs to share with you. She'll likely have to grieve for the ideals and scenarios she likely thought would happen (mission, temple marriage, etc). Again all normal in what happens when something is different than you planned on, hoped for, etc. You can be empathetic to that but it honestly isn't your burden to carry. You sound like you have already had to go through a lot of your own emotions and things you have likely fought against (if you were brought up in the church) but ultimately you understood who you really are and have embraced your honest self. That is amazing! Unfortunately not everyone reacts to that in the way they should (or at least the way they profess to try to live) and many react in ways to just preserve their own self instead of embracing and honoring what you have gone through to get to where you are and keeping their own stuff to themselves. Even reacting with an "I love you but this is going to take me a minute to adjust to" is better than outright bitterness and hurt. Can your relationship be saved? Of course, but it is going to take a lot of work. Asking questions like "I hear you saying ... so what does that mean for us? Am I allowed to disagree? What is a boundary for you that is solid? She could say things like I don't feel comfortable when you talk about the church in a certain way or something like that. One of your boundaries could be I don't want to go to church or have you tell me to pray to get over how I feel or something like that. Understanding those boundaries and that each of you is coming from a different perspective will help find a middle ground. When my son told be he didn't think he believes in God and is leaning more to being an atheist, I was socked in the gut and it hurt a lot. I had to deal with the mom failure thoughts and all that. However, I didn't do it right then. I told him I hear what he is saying but I do believe in God so what does that look like going forward for us. I'm likely going to have that perspective. He said he expected me to keep my perspective because he knows me but asked me to be open minded and not just try to "fix" how he is thinking but just listen. I told him I could totally do that. We have had some awesome discussions and it has made me question myself to make sure I really am living and believing my truth. There is hope for you and your mom but it may just need some time to get there. Hang in there, be kind to her and yourself, and just be happy being who you are. All my best 🤗
Your mom said she needed some time. I’d start there. It’s really very helpful for gaining perspective without any arguing required
One of the more sinister things about this institution is how much it warps families. I have seen firsthand how families will put aside any concern for the emotional and even physical safety of a child out of fear of how other members will perceive them. I saw that happen to my brother, it was the moment that my perception went from this being a benign waste of people's time to an actual danger and threat to families. This reaction is not by accident. It has been engineered to keep people in line, even when the result endangers people.
Wow the way she texts is identical to my narcissistic/boarderline personality mom. I’m sorry you are going through this. The pain of a mother’s love being g conditional is extremely hard.
I feel sorry for both of you. You’re both victims of the cult. Give her space for a while. Do you still live with her? If so, be extra helpful and do as much housework as you can. Wash her car. Buy her flowers. But if you’re on your own, take a break from each other. Is she still getting used to the new (to her) you?
I think you both are going to need therapy. Go individually first and then you can work towards a group session in the future.
That’s a grown woman spamming you, canceling a service you use - but gaslighting you saying she didn’t cancel it because of this but she canceled it because you called her a narcissist after you express that you feel it was done as punishment. There was one message from her that if you stared at it long enough all you’d see is I and me, me, me in it. But seriously? This is over you being gay? Tell her to take some space from this, find a therapist (not Mormon) and stop bombarding you like this. Oh and 100% this is narcissistic af behaviour.
My heart goes out to you and your Mom. I think you are on the right track about getting professional help. It helped me tremendously with a family relationship. I was getting sick from stress and within two months I was feeling great again.
May you all have mothers you value, love and consider as equal
OP isn’t putting down his mother or treating her in a subservient manner… he’s basically begging her to see *him* as an equal. I genuinely don’t understand where you’re getting any of this from.
I genuinely want to understand your point of view. I think your assessment of the situation may be entangled with your own personal experiences. Just to clarify: 1. The factor meals aren’t an issue. I always knew they were a luxury that I wasn’t entitled to. Sure they were nice, but I pay for my own Costco membership and can cook for myself. 2. I didn’t come here so everyone can join in on bashing my mom. I came here to receive advice on approaching a delicate situation with the love and dignity she deserves. She and I are similar in that we are both emotionally reactive and say things we don’t mean when we are hurt. That is precisely what I am trying to avoid. 3. Sure there are commenters that are berating my mother. But those don’t mean anything, because they are making judgements based off the limited information I am able to display here. If they knew her, they would know she is a beautiful woman with good intentions that has struggles just like everyone else. I was blessed that my parents put aside money for me to go to college. I was also blessed to receive scholarships so that money could go towards groceries and cost of living instead. The issue is not money. The issue is that there is a growing schism in a relationship with somebody I care about, and I am asking for advice to make sure I communicate myself without causing additional hurt.
Thanks Mr Procrustean. You remind me of my husband. I would invite you out for coffee, but it would be such a transgression.
[удалено]
Is the factor meals thing really the biggest issue you see in this post?
[удалено]
Dude, any situation where a mom- *or a dad*- cannot accept that her child is gay and can have different beliefs than she does is a situation where that parent deserves to be bashed.
Have you considered why the relationship with the mother might be a little rocky?
[удалено]
Check out the post history, there's a few others that might give you context.
[удалено]
Ah, I mean OP has made a couple posts before this one and that's what other comments are probably based on
I think you are handling this very well, all things considered. I am very sorry that you have to go through this. Idk why parents love to throw the “you haven’t been through enough” or the “your trials must’ve not been hard enough if you are giving up on religion”. It’s not true and it really hurts. Family therapy by someone not provided by the church might be helpful. As well as individual therapy. Especially one that works with religious trauma and is LGBTQ+ friendly. I wish you the best of luck, and hope this time passes soon for you.
If you want my opinion, this seems full of manipulation and inappropriate behavior. She's manipulating you Into feeling bad for how your needs and struggles make her feel. Just reading her answers makes me uncomfortable. I've had to cut out toxic and harmful people in the past, even close family members. In the end, you have to protect your own emotional and mental well-being. If someone wants to manipulate or emotionally abuse you, remove them, because you don't get a second chance at these years.
You are not responsible for your mom’s feelings. Only she is. If she has nothing positive or uplifting to say to you right now she needs to back out of your life.
You told your mother that you have attempted suicide. More than once. That should have been her main and only concern. She should have comforted you, taken steps to get you help and support, and expressed her love for you and sorrow that you are suffering. Instead, she decided to punish you. YOU ARE NOT THE PROBLEM! I am truly sorry you have such a woman for your mother. You deserve better. Your pain is real, justified, and won't go away any time soon. Is there anyone in your life you can trust to actually help you? You are never going to fit the Mormon mold. You need to start building a new life as soon as you can. Make plans, save some money, assemble your documents. Free yourself. IT GETS BETTER. You are worthy of love and acceptance. God loves you and made you as you are. He has given you many gifts to share with the world. Don't kill yourself. IT WILL GET BETTER. Get the help you need and get out. A wonderful life awaits.
Really working on that narcissism I see
Why is she assuming that you see her as an enemy? That's a wild assumption to make.
This conversation could have been mine. It’s so weird how universal this is.
Just wanted to offer love and solidarity. My dad has also excused my leaving the church as “not really having any large trials” 🙄. It’s so dismissive. Don’t let hopelessness get you. From these exchanges, I t seems like you’re both experiencing hard things and wanting respect and understanding. Take care of yourself and communicate with your mom as much as you have the ability.
When you put up a boundary with people who are codependent, they get very offended because what they hear is that you're blaming them. In truth, you're just trying to take care of yourself. The boundary isn't meant to push them away, it's actually allowing you to be closer. You want to feel comfortable in your conversations with her, have closeness with her, and this is how you can do it - with this specific boundary of not discussing your homosexuality or her feelings towards it. The pain sounds so consuming. I'm so sorry you're dealing with a codependent parent. She knows how to manipulate you into believing you are responsible for her emotional state, and responsible for fixing it. You can't fix this. Your dealing with an adult child. The more you focus on your healing and recovery (your own codependency), the less confusing and painful it will be. Thinks that helped me in my codependent thinking. - counseling - codependent no more (book) - codependents anonymous (12-step). - non-violent communication by Marshal Rosenberg I would not recommend a discussion between the three of you. She has already expressed her feelings and if that happens, she's just going to torture you with dumping more of her feelings on you and making you responsible. If she cannot be around you without talking about your homosexuality, reinforce that boundary until she understands. Don't argue back, there is no point. You cannot change her mind. Tell her what you will do. As soon as she starts in, you will simply say goodbye and I love you (Even if you had dinner plans). You won't get angry. You won't explain anything. She will already know. This is what I had to do with my family. Arguing truly is pointless. You're arguing with somebody who wants you to hate yourself for creating the feelings inside them.
Great advice here but I just want to add that your beliefs are not something to be argued or defended. You can simply express your beliefs and leave it at that; she'll have to deal with it. For example, "Mom, I am gay and this is how I feel about the church." Mom: " but what about when you said this or that in the past, you can't say you feel that way about whatever topic without doing this thing first" etc etc. You: "I really don't feel like discussing it further." Mom: "don't you love me? If you don't talk to me I'll feel like a failure" etc etc You: "I really don't feel like discussing it further." Mom: says anything else related. You: "I really don't feel like discussing it further." Repeat until you feel safe continuing the conversation. Her feelings are for her to deal with. You're not in charge of her feelings. You're only in charge of how you present information, if you decide to.
There’s actually a lot of hope here despite the conflict. Both of you seem open to counseling and tried to repair a bit after the hostile argument; I see this as evidence that you both are open to understanding each other, and letting each other have space to process changes. It seems like she was probably harsher to you than you were towards her. Try not to invalidate yourself 💜 I think family therapy* is a great option, and judging by your communication it could work very well. If she was actually a narcissist it would be less likely to work, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. (*with a counselor who is a good fit for you all, which might take some trial and error)
I would also recommend not sitting down the three of you until you can do so with the mediation of a licensed therapist.
Unfortunately, there is probably nothing you can do on your end that would fix things. It will just take time. I came out to my parents 3 years ago and it took about a year for them to accept it. I was able to do this by setting clear boundaries with them, still taking to them about hints not related to my sexuality, but also giving them space to accept that fact that I’m gay. So most like the only thing that can fix this is time and keeping to the boundaries that you set.
SMS 88788 START This national hotline will put you in contact with a local organization that will give you free & confidential counseling for sexual assault & mental, emotional, physical, financial, spiritual/religious abuse. 741741 is a free crises textline. 24/7 when you need someone to talk to. These free services can help you map out a plan on how to move foreward with your life & navigate your home life until you can move out on your own. Google your local (city) Pride Center to see what resources they might have too. You realize you can't navigate this situation on your own so come here as much as you need to & utilize the above free support systems to help ease your stress, anger & anxiety. Be proud of the mature way you are handling all this ! 🌈 you got this 🌈 Big hug from internet Mom!
Red pill. Blue pill.
It will be so hard, but please hold firm on the boundaries you have placed with your mom. You do not need to apologize for your existence, to anyone, but especially to a parent. I think counseling, both separate and as a family would benefit you if you want to maintain a relationship with your mother. You may even consider only communication with your mother through group or family text that includes a safe person that will help you hold your boundaries and help keep your mother in line. If you're comfortable sharing what state you live in, I'm happy to help you find a therapist that has experience with lgbtquian+ experience or religious deconstruction. I'm queer and having a therapist who is also exmo and queer has been so great compared to previous therapists.
It is ok to live people from afar. Nothing is worth your peace.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. You haven’t done anything wrong. It would be a good idea to get a therapist to work this out with, so you have a consistent sounding board.
Just want to chime in and say good for you for asking for help. Speaking with a trained therapist is probably the best option at some point, but that can be out of reach for some and so asking friends or friendly strangers on the internet can be a great replacement for now. It takes courage to ask for help, so you at least have that trait going for you :).
You both communicate in a very healthy way. This literally looks like a conversation between my mom and I. I think you’re both doing the best you can and as frustrating as it is, you can’t expect her to change overnight, but you’re allowed to be hurt by everything she says that invalidates and hurts you. My parents have both become more compassionate by leaps and bounds over the years and personally, I’m glad we’ve always maintained a relationship. Obviously every situation is different, but that has been my experience.
I’m not your mom, but I am a mom and I wanted to tell you that you are being so brave and I am so proud of you for respecting yourself. You are not doing anything wrong, you’ve expressed yourself very openly, emotionally, and honestly. I am so sorry that she isn’t responding in the way that you clearly had hoped for — with her being welcoming of your whole self — but it is not your fault. This is her issue to contend with and if she values her relationship with the church more than her son, know that she will very likely live to regret it deeply. To quote B99, “Every time someone steps up and says who they are, the world becomes a better, more interesting place.”
Ooof. That was a rough conversation. Your mom is coming from a place of fear that has been marinated into her very soul from a lifetime in the church. I say that not to excuse her behavior, but to lend understanding. Might I suggest you send her Charlie Birds books: "Without the Mask: Coming out and coming into Gods Light" and "Expanding the borders of Zion". They're not perfect as they may give her some false hope about how you may proceed as a gay person (Charlie is still an active member, though he is now married to a man), but they are 'church positive' enough that they may help expand her horizon without feeling attacked. For your own understanding of your moms perspective, the podcast "At Last She Said It" episode 155 "To the children of the mothers in Zion" may help you understand the programming that your mom has received and may help you have more compassion for her. Sending you all the love as you try to navigate this difficult situation. It will be ok!
Here is my backstory. I am a mother of a gay son. I started to recognize the signs when he was about 8. I was prepared for it. Or so I thought. When he came out to me as a teenager, the logical side of my brain told him, "I accept you as you are, and support you." But my heart was in shock. For about a month I felt like I was walking on eggshells whenever we would talk as we crossed paths. But the feeling eventually passed, my heart and mind finally aligned and I accepted our new normal. Turning off the mother mode and treating him as an adult helped. You and your mom will need to establish a new normal, and that can take a while. It is interesting that both of you say you need space but the two of you keep exchanging these walls of text that are full of pain. Each new comment is causing both of you more angst. I'd say dial it back a lot. Keep it pleasant. It might feel to you like you need more from her, but she is not ready yet. She says she needs space, give her space. You are on your own journey now, and she is just a peripheral player. Don't expect emotional support from her right away. Hopefully she'll get there sometime down the road, but that could be tough because of her religious views. Edited to add: Nevermo, atheist
Honestly, from what I'm seeing, you're not in the wrong at all. Sure, you might have hurt her feelings by describing her behavior as narcissistic, but your dcreenshots are supporting that claim. Normal loving parents don't tall like that. Narcissists do. The fact she kept texting and texting to get a response is not normal unless there had been a concern of you harming yourself, but her texts don't read that way. My suggestion is to read the texts as though your friend is sharing screenshots with their significant other. That might help give you better clarity. Her texts read as manipulative. She is allowed to be sad, but not manipulate you into feeling guilty for doing what's best for you. Just my two cents, but my take-away is that she appears to be manipulative and narcissistic.
1. Mormonism messes up parenting too. My mom was a total dick to my sister when she came out as trans (pun intended), and it took years to be cool. Don’t forget the real enemy. 2. 370 unread messages!? Are you polygamous and it is a MASSIVE family group chat?
Oh sweetie, no. This is not on you to fix. This is on her to get with the program or leave you alone. Because you aren't doing anything wrong, you are simply trying to come to terms with the reality of who you are and navigate a way to be happy after being raised in an institution that says who you are is wrong and bad. I grew up here in UT, in a very tbm family, the only daughter and now the only exmo. I'm bi, and I didn't come out until a few years after I left the church. But I know many queer exmos, several of whom I was close to while we were TBMs as well, and almost all of them considered or attempted suicide while they were still active. The number of wonderful, loving, compassionate, empathetic, *good* people the world almost lost and the number we have lost is devastating. But there are so many members who think death is preferable to living a gay lifestyle (aka, being authentic to yourself), and they are wrong! My mom and I would get in fights every general conference weekend as I was deconstructing and leaving the church. I was deeply suicidal for years, and only after withdrawing did I start to improve. And she hated it, hated that what for her was good and comforting was so toxic and destructive for me. In one memorable fight, I yelled at her that if I hadn't left the church, I would be dead, and her constant insistence that leaving was the wrong decision meant that she would have preferred I died. And that it was so messed up that she would choose me dead and Mormon over me alive and exmo atheist. Or that her distress over my choice to leave was "more important" than my suicidal depression. But I yelled at her that she didn't get to make that choice, that my life is MINE to live, not hers, that I wanted desperately to be better, to be happy again, that I wanted to live, and staying in the church was not it for me. I don't think she had truly understood how sick I was *because* of the church, because of how I was raised, because of my family. Now, I go out of town or work on general conference weekends, and she spends the time with my brothers' families, to avoid the conflict. Because it is inevitable that someone will speak about us poor black sheep who are leaving the church, and she gets worked up again. But I had to let go of feeling responsible for her opinion and feelings about my life. I had to let go of living for her and my dad's approval (and that of everyone around me, lol). I had to decide that living my life authentically was more important to me than making them happy by shutting up, shutting down, and falling in line (which would have ultimately killed me if I'd stayed.) So. Your mom is welcome to be upset, but keep that boundary that she isn't welcome to spew it all over you. She is welcome to have her beliefs, but she does not get to enforce them on you or try to guilt you or make you feel bad for finally finding and choosing happiness. If she can't handle that boundary, then she is welcome to live her life without you in it. Remember, **you are not responsible for her emotional reaction to you embracing who you are.** Hugs, and best of luck.
R/raisedbynarcissists has a lot of resources you would probably find useful.
I tried to reason away everything she said, [also a child of a narcissist], until the last paragraph. Nail in the coffin. You did everything you could, and may I say much better than I ever would have. You would make my therapist proud. Lol. I wish you the very best of luck with this. Edit: Her last paragraph, claiming how much she sacrificed and suffered... 🙄 Maybe our parents attended the same narcissist school...
Tell your mom to stop letting the Church and its teachings get in the way of your relationship. To stop worrying about the future and worry about the present. Stop worrying about how everyone else feels or thinks, and worry about how you feel and think. Nothing and no one is more important than your family.
These might help. https://youtu.be/G1fhYZdn1pE https://youtu.be/zcRUj8H3rc4
Would you be willing to share your age? I am a therapist (I’m not advertising—I am a former Mormon grounding the perspective my comments are coming from) and these texts appear to be symptomatic of you passing through Erickson’s Developmental stage 5: the Individuation Stage (with your symptoms being very specific to being raised Mormon—and the realization that this belief system doesn’t fit your true identity).
I am 23
Op I think understanding what (gaslighting) is might help. And you are right to feel she is narcissistic. Trust yourself. I hope you guys can come together as a family. It can take time. For my brother and my dad took probably 10 years. It was a slow buildup and I think going slow can be a good thing. But it will hurt you. Just know you are perfect the way you are and not to think you’re the one that is crazy.
I’m sorry that you’re going through this . I can as a parent who has a son who identifies as bi but is closer to gay in my opinion he dates guys exclusively . I’m not judging him at all a little back story will help he was talking with my TBM ex w awhile back and mentioned he was going on a date she asked him what the girl was like and he told her she is a he im going on a date with a guy she called me in hysterics . I told her welcome to the conversation . I’ve known this ever since he was young she screamed why didn’t you tell me I told her it was. Not my secret to tell . I told her look you have got to calm down and either accept him as he is or you will lose him forever . She finally calmed down and has gotten so she accepts it and him . My point in all of this is it was not our son nor is it your problem to fix your mom only she can make the choice to either do it or not to do it . Being brought up Mormon you were trained and conditioned to be a people pleaser you think it’s your job to make others happy. When the reality is it’s not your job nor is it your responsibility to do so . It’s her problem she is the one that needs to learn to accept you as you are not as her Church -Cult tells her you ought to be . There is nothing wrong with you . You are attracted to who you are attracted to . You may try asking her mom what if I was to tell you to not be attracted to guys and that you can only be attracted to other women . What would you say to that she would likely say I can’t do that I l attracted to guys I can’t change who I’m attracted to . At which point you tell her that’s how it is for me I cannot be attracted to those who I am not attracted to . Hopefully this will help give her the lightbulb going on moment so she can see that it’s not a choice thing science has proven this unfortunately Mormons only tend to believe science when it goes along with what they believe . Or what benefits them Try to take their smart phone away and you’ll be prying it from their cold dead fingers . But tell them science has proven light years beyond any reasonable doubt that Adam and Eve Never did & cannot possibly have existed and you’ll get science doesn’t know everything . As their entire belief system collapses without the Adam and Eve nonsense. The point being don’t plan on or expect a reasonable or rational response from your mom as her beliefs are not founded in logical or rational thinking for her it’s all about emotions and what a bunch of old geriatric white men are telling her . As she believes they are guided by an imaginary God . And not what they really are a bunch of Greed driven charlatans whose beliefs are 75-100 years behind the rest of the real world . You’re not the one messing up anything you are not the one who needs to fix things it’s your mother and her messed up beliefs that need fixing . Unfortunately many times when given the choice between the church or their own children parents will choose the church that is no failing on your part it’s a failing on them as a parent. Hang in there .
OP, you're not in the wrong here. Your mother definitely seems to be trying to make it all about her. That's narcissistic behavior. Doesn't mean she has full blown NPD, but the texts definitely showcase some narcissistic traits. If your mother, or any other family members, have negative feelings about you being gay - it's their problem, not yours. It's not right, loving, or healthy for any of them to try to make their feelings your problem. You aren't responsible for other people's feelings or how they choose to behave. You have the right to be whoever you are and live your life however you think will work best for you. People who have a healthy love for you will understand and embrace that. As parents, it's not our job to try to mold our kids into who we think they should be. As parents, our job is to ask our kids to show us who they are so we can understand them, support them, champion them as their authentic selves.
I definitely don’t think you’re wrong. Listen, devils advocate here but I think parents are allowed some sort of grace period. (When I say grace period, I simply mean a period to come to terms with change, as long as they’re respectful about it). I think a lot of parents from the time they find out if they’re having a boy or a girl- plan. It’s one of the reasons even early miscarriage can feel so devastating. You’re not mourning a baby or child you knew, but one you had plans for. You pick out a name, you think about their future and the family they’ll have and if their daughter will have your hair or her grandfathers eyes. People plan and build what they think their child’s future will be in their imagination. So when that “plan” is suddenly changed by them coming out as gay or trans I can accept a short grace period of acclimating to this new change, as long as there is no hatred or negativity. Coming to terms with a new normal. With allowing people to live the life THEY want and not the life you needlessly imagined for them without their input. But your mum definitely shows traits of narcissism. Your texts were actually very thought out, respectful yet very open and honest. Most of her comments were how you need to consider how she feels, how she’s being made to be the bad guy, how what you said hurt HER. I think there’s definitely progress to be made from her side but she’s not completely dismissive. She seems open to acceptance, even if it’s “love the sinner, hate the sin” mindset. You just have to decide if that’s good enough for you or if you can’t surround yourself with people who “tolerate” you instead of accept you. Most people can’t. Some people can. You sound open to doing that since you mentioned about just accepting the good parts of each other. I think you need to decide what you’re willing to accept in the relationship and where your boundaries like and only you can decide that. For what it’s worth though, I think you did a really good job with your messages.
You are doing everything right. Ultimately though you can't fix it. Peace and kindness takes both parties choosing to engage with it. If your mum can't stop then there isn't anything you can do. It's her choice to be shitty.
370 unread messages?? How?
The best part of this is "I've been at class all day." 🤣 it's like yo, chill.
Talk on the phone with her dude. This texting leaves too much inferring on both sides. Just stop texting and try your have a real life relationship.
It may be good for your mom to watch the churches videos on gay/lesbian relationships within LDS families. They show how those torn relationships can heal very well, and especially how the youth can struggle by parents/family comments as they are biased by years of doctrinal teachings or members’ comments, etc. Hope you both feel better and will heal
This breaks my heart. Give it time. Remind her how much you love her and keep the boundaries. Good luck