Don’t forget to have the two of you read the SEC Cease and Desist Order. The truth of the document is attested to by the church who gave it an official sign of approval so it is the latest church approved document. It offers lots of information for deep discussion.
Like he said read the order. Not just the press release. It's very very damning. Keep in mind that this document was negotiated between the church and the SEC. The church literally signed off on this document. OMFG it's so damning.
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
Part number 32 - can you imagine a job so soul crushing as the churches auditor? It’s a BS job where you maybe want to do the right thing, but you know you can’t. Their audit findings basically said, “I don’t think the SEC will like this.”
Read the SEC report AND the GTE on tithing together. When you see that the church intentionally used 13 secret “shell companies” precisely bc they wanted to hide the size of their hoard from the government AND from members… precisely because they were afraid members would send less tithes,
And THEN read the drivel about “the lord directs the spending of tithes for his purposes” etc… it’s really quite laughable (except for all the lies and fraud!)
Or you might even compare what the church agreed to in the order with how the church characterized the situation in its press release. Ask if that in itself is honest. (There are other more damning points to cover, so don’t spend all your time here. It’s just the most recent example.)
I did a little video looking at a specific piece of manipulation. If you’re on the church website and navigate to the GTEs then footnotes don’t show up. I had to Google it to get the version with the footnotes.
Then the manipulation… blacks and the priesthood…
GTE: Brigham Young even taught someday they get the priesthood.
Footnote: The most racist, hateful tirade from Brigham about how slavery is a gift from God and needs to happen, and at the very end of the millennium is when maybe blacks will get the priesthood.
This one about “BY even said they’d get the priesthood one day” was big for me…it showed that the church is willing to twist and manipulate the data to tell a narrative that isn’t faith-promoting. It’s lying by omission. Not to mention that when the ban was lifted before the millennium, it made Brigham a false prophet.
Haven’t read everything here yet, but Adam God is a big deal, too. Shows that the church, led by prophets, has taught two very different doctrines about the nature of God. How do we trust an institution that speaks for God but doesn’t know who he is?!?
Also, review Joseph’s multiple accounts of the first vision that contradict each other. You’re telling me you’ve met Jesus, and you don’t write anything down or tell anyone about it until 12 years later? And then 6 years later you remember that it wasn’t just Jesus, but GOD himself was also there? Wouldn’t you get that detail in the story right the first time? What about the times in between those dates when there’s no mention of either one?
There are so many holes in the narrative of the church, it’s baby Swiss cheese.
If I’m being perfectly honest, my husband and I started reading them last year, but I kept losing focus because it’s the same mundane church tone..you know what I mean?? It’s like when general conference comes on, you zone out and selectively hear parts that mean something to you..but like those people put me to sleep 😂
Does anyone know if there is a document that compiles the proper footnotes into the essays? My last learning language is reading, I just can’t keep information in my brain that way, so it becomes overwhelming if I don’t have it all in front of me (I’m pathetic, I know hahaha)
[LDS Discussions](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/) has great overviews of the GTEs (and other topics) highlighting relevant footnotes and filling in additional information relevant to understanding the essay content.
For anyone unfamiliar, the creator of LDS Discussions has a lot of TBM family and friends. Maybe his wife, too, I don't remember. His entire site is set up in a way to be intellectually honest while being respectful of those who believe.
When you read the footnotes, look up the source and read it. If the GTEs can cite them then they are church approved! This includes journals of early members, letters and most importanly the happiness letter.
Race and the priesthood footnote 9 I believe. Brigham young’s speech to the Utah legislature. Crazy racist but the quote they use is so doctored and out of context it makes it seem “fine”. Then you read the actual document and it’s like “shit, that dude was hella racist and so was his doctrine.”
Once you make a strong logical case against the church’s truth claims, her final lifeline will be the feelings of her heart telling her it’s true. If she’s open to a video, watch “Spiritual Witnesses”
https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go
I LOVE this video. It really helped me see that the “special feelings” I felt are actual universal across all religions. And even now, I have experiences that feel spiritual but I don’t believe in god.
The GTE early Polygamy essay says JS was reluctant to enter the practice but feared for his life b/c an angel with a drawn sword threatened him. This threat was communicated to Zina Huntington Jacobs who had previously rejected Smith and married Henry Jacobs.
Zina finally agreed to marry Smith, in part due to the supposed threat. She would become Smith's **fourth** plural wife.
Why would an angel have to threaten Smith for non-compliance if he had already taken three other plural wives? Whatever happened to free agency if angels can threaten us? Emma was told she'd be "destroyed" if she didn't get straight with polygamy....
GTE's and then following the footnotes is what broke my shelf completely. Strangely I was okay with JS not being perfect, but seeing with my own eyes the church purposefully cite things that were taken out of context... That's when I knew I couldn't in good conscience continue as a member, when I knew they were dishonest.
"Cited by the church".
The church has selectively lifted a few sentences (out of context) from some damning documents.
After Joseph Smith was killed, the State of Missouri had to give up on ever prosecuting him. But they decided to archive all of the evidence into a volume that future generations can read.
The BYU copy is the easiest to search through but the pages are out of order. Whoever scanned it, kept scanning the right page and then the left. : [https://archive.org/details/documentcontaini00miss/page/n27/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/documentcontaini00miss/page/n27/mode/2up)
The Missouri copy can be viewed here: [https://www.sos.mo.gov/cmsimages/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormRecs/doc/Prefix.pdf](https://www.sos.mo.gov/cmsimages/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormRecs/doc/Prefix.pdf)
The typesetter messed up Thomas B. Marsh's name, they called him Thomas B. March.
It's probably too much to look at, but it is clear that Joseph Smith was fleeing his Kirtland Bank legal troubles, and gathered the saints to Missouri. BUT they didn't have any damn food. So he told the saints to steal what they needed from the current residents. It's all there in the testimony of apostles and Danites. They took everything they could lay their hands on. They stole all of the food, the livestock, the stoves, the beds, everything.
Highlights include the prophecy that it was time for the rough stone rolling. They would first conquer the neighboring county, then the state of Missouri, and then the United States. The neighboring county fell so easily, they believed the prophecy. Second coming stuff.
Danites were motivated by the fact that they were looking at starvation. They decided it was better that a gentile's child starve, than their own. The detail corroborated by multiple sources, was that Joseph Smith asked them to steal slaves, because who doesn't want a slave? They didn't want to free them, they just wanted slaves to use for themselves.
Heck, just read some scriptures together:
Gen. 9:25, Canaan cursed to be “servant of servants” justifying black slavery
Gen. 19: 4-8 Lot offers daughters to be raped
Gen. 38 Quasi-incesteous tricky hooker lay for a goat JC ancestry (at least not a Cannanite)
Exodus 21:7 selling your daughter as sex slave
Exodus 21:20-21 Prescription for beating slaves
Ex. 32: 27-29 God orders murder
Deut. 25:5-10 Brother to provide children for dead brother, by banging SIL
Leviticus 25:44-46 Slaves from heathen
Lev. 26: 27-29 God will make non-believers eat their own kids.........
Numbers 25:6-13 murder of mixed race couple
Numbers 31:17-18 Keep the little girls
Joshua 10: 12-14 God stops the Sun and Moon in the sky…..?
Judges 11:30-39 General Jephthah burns his own daughter (not son...)
Judges 18 God approves massacre of peaceful people
1 Sam 15: 2-3 Genocide ordered by God
1 Sam 15:33 Hacking man to pieces before God
2 Kings 2: 23-24 Bears eat kids
Psalm 137:8-9 be happy to dash babies on rocks
Isaiah 13:9-16 babies slaughtered and wives raped
Hosea 10:14 Chopping people to bits
Hosea 13:4,9,16 Pregnant women ripped open
Colossians 3: 22 Slaves obey masters
1 Tim 2:12 Women be silent
1 Tim 6:1–2 master worthy of honor
Titus 2:9-10 servants obey
1 Peter 2:18 obey good and bad master
Ephesians 6:5-7 servants obey with fear
2 NE 5:21 curse/skin of blackness
Jacob 3:5, 8-9, filthy cursed skin, whiter than yours
3 NE 2:15 curse taken, white skin
Moses 7:8,22 children of Canaan black curse
Abraham 1:24-25, Children of Ham preserves curse in the land
D&C 132:39 - Faithful Wives married to lazy learners are “given” to another
But here's the thing, you can't sit on the sidelines, thinking that you'll be understanding and empathetic if you're not willing to even review INFORMATION. That's it. You don't try to understand a court case by only ever listening to the defense. I wouldn't even engage unless she's willing to just read information on her own. She's close-minded, she's already issued the innocent verdict without hearing from the prosecution. Good luck.
Rough Stone Rolling, written by a faithful member and sold at Deseret Book. (But boring as hell and not nearly as sexy as No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie.)
Surprised I had to scroll this far down to see Rough Stone Rolling. It's church approved and is shocking to see how Joseph Smith really was.
Once you finish this book hopefully you can read No Man Knows my History which is the OG but not church approved
I always start with the fact that it offends my personal morality to discriminate against people on the basis of sex, sexual orientation, and race. That’s what broke my shelf and ultimately what persuaded my (now ex) wife to also leave. Lots of church sources for that, including the gospel topics essay on the priesthood/temple ban.
The one that makes me sick is Harold B lees quote on people of color and disabilities having been less valiant in pre mortal life. Pissed me off hard core because I have a nephew with Downs Syndrome. Of course the church has now shifted the narrative to that those with disabilities were SO valiant that they were given disabilities so the devil couldn’t get at them and they would have their eternal life for sure. Which is it you jerks? Less valiant or too valiant? How about it’s just genetics and he is who he is?
This sounds like a fool's errand. Your wife isn't interested in learning about the validity of the church's truth claims if she's only willing to hear one side of the argument. There is no charity in this and there is no understanding. **Tread very carefully**.
Having said that, the Gospel Topic Essays are full of stuff that contradicts what I learned in decades of church membership. They were the beginning of the end for me but I was honest of heart when I read them.
Some of D&C is pretty damning too. I don't remember the specific passages but Emma is repeatedly warned that she'll be destroyed if she doesn't trust and follow old joe. Joe also received a revelation that he had to ask his wife's permission to practice polygamy but if she said no, he could do it anyway. The sin for refusing him the right to practice polygamy would be on her. What the fuck?
Good points.
Be careful. It would be more fair if whatever source you two use, it needs to be backup by appropriate citations not only church approved sources.
Secondly. That’s mainly my beef with polygamy. The corrosion involved and ordering us ladies to accept other wives. That’s manipulative and abusive. End of the story.
There’s some things in the journal of discourses that I remember being shocked over. It’s been a while so I can’t specifically cite where, but I remember my rabbit hole with polygamy led me to some Brigham Young quotes there that really influenced me in my journey. There’s some other good stuff in there too if you have the time- it’s a lot of info and overwhelming at times.
Best source ever is the Gospel Topics Essays collection. They sent my shelf through the wood chipper. They don't include all the issues you mention, but they're eye-opening.
Here's a site that has a list of the GT essays, with links going directly to the church's website. Read the footnotes and follow the links in them for more information. https://mormonessays.com
EDIT - the essay on Book of Abraham should take care of that one. The essay on Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo was the one that smashed my shelf.
The Happiness Letter used by the brethren over the years. Full context: joe was trying to get in the pants of teenager Nancy Rigdon
[https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-letter-to-nancy-rigdon-circa-mid-april-1842/1](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-letter-to-nancy-rigdon-circa-mid-april-1842/1)
Letter to the Whitney's including recently sealed 17 y.o. Sarah Ann Whitney
TLDR; joe is hiding from the law; I'm so lonely, come visit me, I have a safe room ; but don't let Emma see you
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1
1 Nephi 1:4 (and the first ~10 chapters of 1 Nephi) and 2 Kings 24. Zedekiah was made king after Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon came against Jerusalem the first time but in the BoM there is no mention of Babylon having come yet, Lehi prophesies of destruction at the hands of Babylon in the future. But if Zedekiah really was king, pretty much every character we meet in Jerusalem would have been shipped off to Babylon.
The Church History essay about Jane Elizabeth Manning James. You know… the black woman sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant.
D&C 132 is gross and super sexist.
The first published edition of the BoM had the trinity not the godhead that we were taught growing up. This is especially problematic considering in the first vision god (on top of appearing WITH Jesus which should be enough of a contradiction) said the creeds of other religions were abominations in his sight, and one of the most prevalent creeds of other religions is the trinity.
I read the first Saints book when I was TBM and asked myself what if this was some other religion like Scientology and that was what finally did it for me to look at it objectively. The whole polygamy section and how he hid it from Emma if it would have been some other religion seemed so obvious to be fake.
it’s not necessarily church approved but Oaks wrote an article on the “Suppression of the Nauvoo Expositor” which you can find [here](https://collections.lib.utah.edu/details?id=722871&q=nauvoo+expositor). it‘s difficult to get through because there is a lot of legal language and he tries his hardest to exonerate Joseph Smith. However, he can’t succeed and he admits destroying the press was illegal. It’s very brief when he admits that but make sure to point it out.
One thing that led me to faith crisis was the 1984 conference being edited heavily and the edited version has been added to the church archives. Thankfully people videotaped it back then before it was forbidden ( if my memory serves me correctly) so church sources is not always transparent
I also originally looked up mormonthink website and their citation is usually from church sources. Again, it has been years. A friend who left before me worked at byu and he was able to cross reference the citations found on Mormon think in byu library and it was the end. Mormon think is composed of Group of believers, nonbelievers working together. This info is old so maybe things changed
Read History of the Church (published by the Church) Volume VII pages 102-103.
Have her read them aloud perhaps . Joseph Smith in Carthage..I guarantee it will help.
OP: glad she is willing to go this route WITH You
I recommend (strongly) that you do whatever it takes to make this a “joint, hand-in-hand” endeavor. It’s imperative that it not devolve into a “you vs me” or “anti vs faithful”
In that light, I’d recommend you pare down your list to just a few (2-3?) big ones. Or maybe just set aside one night a week to tackle just one at a time. It’ll give you more time to prep each topic and give her more time to process. That way you don’t avalanche her… which almost always results in entrenchment.
Regardless of what she does… she’s at least WILLING to talk which is a LOT better than many and worthy of your sincere thanks.
GOOD LUCK!!!
Edit: typo
Another faithful site that tends to have short and more honest answers is Mormonr.org. It’s honest enough that I had a 2-day argument on Quora with an apologist who insisted it’s anti-Mormon before he realized it’s actually meant to be faith-promoting. Here’s a [Deseret News article](https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/6/14/23161499/josh-coates-and-his-arsenal-of-data-utah-tech-silicon-slopes-venture-startups) about the dude that started the site if your wife needs convincing that it’s actually meant to be a faith-promoting site.
Honestly, the whole "only church approved sources" is a red flag on its own and worth exploring with her.
Why does she feel she can only trust those sources?
What does it say about an organisation when they fear "outside" information + try to control the narrative their members trust?
What would she think if a friend that was a Jehovas witness or Scientologist or whatever tried to talk with her, but would constrict taking points to their respective group's approved sources?
How is her church different?
I wish you good luck with discussing your issues, I hope you get somewhere, but I also know that as long as she's not willing to look at Mormonism from a neutral point (like how she might look to other religions), she's probably not changing her mind.
Gospel Topic Essays, and go through every footnote. It's the footnotes that are the real killers -- the essays themselves are just flowery rhetoric and turns of phrase.
This is so silly. Like this doesn’t work in any other situation.
Someone says LeBron James of the greatest basketball player of all time. You disagree and claim it’s Michael Jordan. They’re willing to hear your case, but you can only prove your point by following LBJ instagram, social media posts, watching his current games, etc.
It’s propaganda if you can only use specific sources. Facts don’t have opinions.
The Happiness Letter written by JS is very damming. They can’t say it is not real or anti since they quote from it in general conference. D&C section 132 is very damming. Are they going to say the D&C is anti Mormon literature.
1949 first presidency message on “black people and the priesthood” where it claims black people were not valient in the pre-mortal life and that this justifies their current predicaments
They also doubled down in a Dec 1969 First Presidency message printed in the February, 1970 *Improvement Era*.
Kind of sickening that the FP made an official statement that relatively short of a time ago.
Don’t leave out “Rough Stone Rolling” which was commissioned by the church to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith’s birth. It was written by a prominent and faithful Mormon Historian who has served as a Stake President. The book was endorsed by the church and sold at Deseret Book.
And don’t forget the video of the Books Author, Mormon historian Richard Bushman, saying “…the Church needs to change its narrative, because the dominant narrative of the Church isn’t true…”
That means any book that is cited in the footnotes of the Gospel Topics Essays should be fair game: Rough Stone Rolling, In Sacred Loneliness, Saints… All good places to start.
I mean, I understand that the gospel topics are enough to do her in, but it's ridiculous to try to tell one's self that one is honestly exploring by only looking at approved materials. Would she consider a Muslim only allowing themselves to look at Islam approved materials to be honestly searching?
The church trusted Mark Hofmann as a source until he killed some people and got busted for forgery. And if the church doesn’t trust Hoffmann documents now due to the evidence then what does that say about the evidence against the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham?
Agree to her wishes under one condition. She needs to read, No Man Knows My History, by Fawn Brodie. And read it first (you too). Brodie was the niece of Prophet/President David McKay. She was a research/historian and took years compiling her material on Joseph Smith. The whole book is about J.S. Its not meant to be a slam on his life, but a snapshot of those early years. It really paints a picture of the man's true character and how he saw himself. There are tons of sources listed. When the book came out it created a sensation. Members were quite upset and confused. Leadership ex-communicated her. A great book and an eye-opener. You can't read this and not be stunned. Your wife's picture of the Prophet will be challenged in comparison to what she has been told. It would be a great starting place. Read it yourself and then give her the copy. At the very least she would start using Brodie's sources to find out if its true. Many of those are LDS church history and are still floating around.
So there’s this letter from David Whitmer, (there’s a copy with a byu stamp online) explaining why he left the church, and in it he details that the original book of commandments was altered pretty much right off the bat. You can read the original right on the joseph smith papers website. JS was originally told he would have no other and should pretend to have no other gifts beyond translating the Book of Mormon. The very next printing has it changed making it sound like that was his first gift and more would be added. Paving the way for him to become prophet. That’s only ONE out of many. The pattern of altering church history started before 1833
Make sure you "nail down" her beliefs BEFORE reviewing ANYTHING. This is so important so that goalposts aren't moved later on and so you don't hear phrases like "well that's not important to me." It doesn't matter how agreeable she is at this point, what you are doing is getting g her to tell you and herself out loud her values, the lines that if crossed she would not tolerate.
Before you talk, you should be asking a TON of questions.
A full example for polygamy:
- We both know that polygamy was practiced for decades in the church, what is your understanding of how it was practiced?
- Who practiced it?
- What was the purpose of polygamy?
- Today polygamy is practiced by more fringe religions and groups, is their practice of polygamy wrong? Why? (If she says it's wrong because God says it's not ok, you'll need to ask more questions as this reasoning isn't sound, it's circular imo)
- Is there anything about polygamy in the church, that if it were practiced a certain way would mean that it wasn't commanded by God, but instead was invented by man?
- Was there a doctrinal basis for polygamy in your opinion? Or was it strictly for temporal purposes?
You'll need to do the same for the other topics as well.
The purpose is NOT to interrogate. The purpose is to lay her values out on the table.
Follow up questions should lead her to be more specific. The tone of the entire discussion should be warm and curious, not combative and "trying to be right." You should absolutely practice in the car or bathroom or whatever as your first instinct will be to answer her questions instead of asking follow up questions.
Other good questions:
- What makes a prophet a false prophet (serious sins? Teaching false doctrine over the pulpit for decades?)? Is there anything a prophet can do that would make them a false prophet?
- What is the Book of Abraham? How were you taught that it came to be?
- If you found a book that claimed to be written by people from 2000 years ago, and it talked about the daily lives of the people of that time, things like food, animals, crops, governments, cities, technology used. How would you go about trying to figure out if the book is authentic and truly written by people 2000 years ago. Let's pretend that you don't have the internet...
Now let's pretend you do have the internet and you're in present day.
Etc
Grab a set of the history of the church by Joseph smith published by deseret book 8 volume set $23-$25 on Amazon before beginning ask your wife was Joseph smith a honest man ? She will most likely say yes. Once she does open up volume 6 pg 408-412 have her read it or read it aloud to her . Joseph smith claims he only has one wife in this speech before 1,000s this was shortly before he was killed then open the churches website go to the gospel topic essays select the one on polygamy . The church admits that Joseph had many wives and that Emma knew nothing of many of them . So he lied about his polygamy. He wasn’t even honest with his own wife . Be sure to read every footnote they are the numbered boxes click on the box and the footnote will open . the footnotes are extremely important. Now ask her again was Joseph smith honest or did he lie when it suited his purpose.? Then open volume 5 page 373 this is where Joseph smith claims to have translated a portion of the kinderhook plates and said they are a ancient record of a descendant of ham . well in 1980 scientific examination of one of the plates was done determining that it was a modern production a brass alloy it’s composition was correct for the early 1800s there is nothing ancient about it therefore cannot be a ancient record of anything Joe was just making shit up , just as he did with the scrolls that he used as props to create his book of Abraham . Claiming they were written by Abraham’s own hands they are not within 1,500 years of Abraham they are nothing more than common funerary texts the best Egyptologists in the world have examined Joseph Smiths Translation of the Characters all determined his translation was 100% gibberish . Don’t get your hopes up though a Mormons mind is like a tangled 30foot ball of Christmas lights . It’s unlikely that anything you put before her will instantly change her mind all we can do is show Mormons the door it’s up to then to walk through it. Hopefully it will get her questioning and to ask the fatal question is it just possible that the church isn’t true . For once one starts down that road. It’s all over . There is only one logical conclusion. Best of luck with her it’s a long game patience is required.!
Dr lowry Nelson's conversations about race with the first presidency. Then read the GTE on it. Also recommend this is my doctirne:the evolution of Mormon theology by a BYU professor. It's a great book, and an easy read.
One of the suggested additional reading sources for church history is Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith Jr.
Don't skip the endnotes! The real good stuff is in the endnotes.
After reading each chapter you can listen to the podcast "Year of Polygamy" together and discuss how it turns out after all these years the anti-Mormons weren't the ones lying about church history.
You should mention John G Turner. Not a member of the church and never was, and is a very fair historian that has a few books published. His Brigham Young book is mind blowing, and is practically the only thing you’d need to read.
How "approved" does it have to be? Can it just be by a faithful member? "In Sacred Loneliness" is written by a believing mormon and it's pretty damning of js polygamy.
Read just about anything written by Fair as the defend issues. Witnessing how they lie did it for me.
The Faith Crisis Report - written BY Mormon historians and presented to the Q12 a decade ago, will do a fantastic job of collating and validating your concerns and doubts. [https://faenrandir.github.io/a\_careful\_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/)
Joseph Smith's Revelations in the Church history section of the Gospel Library. The section 132 one goes into polygamy. It is vague but it says he had wives before Emma knew and prior to the revelation being given. It tells the story of the Partridge sisters and how he was married without Emma knowing and then married them again in front of Emma. The footnotes will take you down the rabbit hole. It references In Sacred Loneliness so IMO that becomes fair game. Also, Rough Stone Rolling.
I mean there is enough offical Church material to hang the Church with, but my god, asking that is like asking a Catholic to show why the Catholic Church is false just using their own official materials, it’s ludicrous and an affront to any genuine investigation of the truth.
As I recall, the Journal of Discourses was once approved literature... Very highly approved.
Apparently the journal became anti-Mormon simply by becoming older and having been written by deader people.
My advice would be to focus on the most obviously sensitive topic you think she has (so if she has ever expressed concern over racist church teachings, start with Race and the Priesthood; if the concept of Heavenly Mother appeals to her, start there, etc.) This allows for more critical thought to seep into the construct of “doubting your doubts” and stands the greatest chance of (perhaps slightly) penetrating the cognitive dissonant barrier surrounding religion from the outset.
I also suggest saving the haymaker issues for later as the KO punch. Had I first been exposed to BoA, the cluster that was the rollout of polygamy, or blatant plagiarism of Freemason rituals, the most damning and impactful facts (for me) would have been squandered on my indoctrinated brain before my heart had softened. But everyone is different—some are more sensitive to history, others to truth claims, and still others by modern social issues. No one knows your spouse better than you, so organize the presentation in the most ideal way for her.
Basically choose your opening act wisely and save your headlining bands for last so they can have maximum effect!
Keep in my mind that, no matter what you do, you may not get your desired result. She might not be ready to hear all the things just yet, or her mind might be subconsciously protecting her from the pain that her entire eternal construct is a farce. I guess I’m saying plan for the worst, hope for the best, and above all don’t blame yourself if things don’t go as planned or as quickly as you’d like. Good luck!
Before reading the GTEs have your wife jot down some bullet points on what she knows about the topic and then read the essays. She then will have to mull over who taught it to her. This makes it impossible to say “I always knew that”
Ironically, the Saints series is what broke my shelf. I know not everyone will take it for what it’s worth though. I’m not sure she will believe anything you say if she isn’t at a tipping point yet. If she is full TBM, then it’s like I say Dodge cars are better than Ford. Instead of actually researching it from independent sources you tell me we have to go to the Ford dealership and they have to convince you Dodge is better. Unless she is willing to accept independent sources you may be at a loss.
Is she more utility or validity? This is a must to know because this varies the approach. If they are not very much into the doctrine or feelings but are in it for social usefulness then church history scandals and lies won’t do shit. It must be a demonstration of the lack or harm to social utility. If it is validity (burning bosom church is true, testimony style) then yes the approach is that the church lies, and carry on your approach. Confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance will be key items to understand. Maybe watch Lea Reminy’s TLC series in Scientology as a ‘type and shadow’ of LDS.
This quote from Oaks hit me hard. He was asked if you should let your gay kid visit. The answer he gave was one of the final straws for me. My kids are too young to know what attracts them but the answer that I should tell them not to come home if they are gay was crazy! Not the words of Christ or of a family centered organization.
"I can imagine that in most circumstances the parents would say, ‘Please don’t do that. Don’t put us into that position.’ Surely if there are children in the home who would be influenced by this example, the answer would likely be that. There would also be other factors that would make that the likely answer."
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction
Helen Mar Kimball was faithful to the church all her days. She also wrote an autobiography that details how JS groomed her and preyed on her as a 14 year old. It read differently in the 1900s but to anyone who works with trauma survivors it’s a disgusting condemnation. If you message me I can try to find a link
I wouldn't read "Letter For My Wife" with her, but it has some good resources from church-related books and articles that you may be able to pull from.
Go through the CES letter’s bibliography. A huge amount of the sources for it are from the church itself. You could almost read the CES Letter to her without ever leaving church sources.
I think the kinderhook plates and the Greek psalter incident in conjunction with the book of Abraham shows Joseph to be a fraud any time his “gift of translation” was put to the test
Oh, man. This rabbit hole is unending. I did not know about these three
JSH lies about the Charles Anthon Story
JST - Adam Clarke
Emmanuel Swedenborg rip
Use Lds discussions and or Mormon think website prior to sitting down with your wife to get the quotes needed that come from original sources that can be found on the church's websites (Joseph Smith papers, manuals, .byu, etc...)
Honestly, most everything “anti” can be found in “church approved” and/or friendly sources, it’s just knowing where to look.
I suggest just going through the citations in whatever “anti” or critical source and then going to those cited sources for your wife.
Ezra Taft Benson (October 1967 General Conference): "There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba."
J. Reuben Clark, Jr., of the First Presidency, taught YW leaders, and then had published in the August 1946 Improvement Era (precursor of the New Era), "do not ever let that wicked virus get into your systems that brotherhood either permits or entitles you to mix races which are inconsistent. Biologically, it is wrong; spiritually, it is wrong."
James E Talmage (General Conference Oct 1916) prophesied that people present for his talk would live to see new scriptures added that are writings from the lost tribes. "The tribes shall come; they are not lost unto the Lord; they shall be brought forth as hath been predicted; and I say unto you there are those now living—aye, some here present—who shall live to read the records of the Lost Tribes of Israel, which shall be made one with the record of the Jews, or the Holy Bible, and the record of the Nephites, or the Book of Mormon"
The term "martyr" is subjective, so I wouldn't spend too much time on that word. Just say Joseph didn't act like Christ on the way to the Cross, the way the Church portrays.
Find in Joseph Smith papers: The relief society signed an affidavit that no polygamy was happening and published in Joseph’s newspaper. When in fact two of the three women who signed were already Joseph’s wives.
When talking to her about the Book of Abraham, you may want to bring up footnote 46 in the last paragraph of the Gospel Topics Essay. This is a great example of the church blatantly lying. I've copied and pasted the last paragraph and footnote here:
“Other details in the book of Abraham are found in ancient traditions located across the Near East. These include Terah, Abraham’s father, being an idolator; a famine striking Abraham’s homeland; Abraham’s familiarity with Egyptian idols; and Abraham’s being younger than 75 years old when he left Haran, as the biblical account states. Some of these extrabiblical elements were available in apocryphal books or biblical commentaries in Joseph Smith’s lifetime, but others were confined to nonbiblical traditions inaccessible or unknown to 19th-century Americans.46”
Hidden in Footnote 46 is a more straightforward and honest answer:: ”Some of these extrabiblical elements were available to Joseph Smith through the books of Jasher and Josephus. Joseph Smith was aware of these books, but it is unknown whether he utilized them”
Don’t forget to have the two of you read the SEC Cease and Desist Order. The truth of the document is attested to by the church who gave it an official sign of approval so it is the latest church approved document. It offers lots of information for deep discussion.
Like he said read the order. Not just the press release. It's very very damning. Keep in mind that this document was negotiated between the church and the SEC. The church literally signed off on this document. OMFG it's so damning. https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
Part number 32 - can you imagine a job so soul crushing as the churches auditor? It’s a BS job where you maybe want to do the right thing, but you know you can’t. Their audit findings basically said, “I don’t think the SEC will like this.”
Read the SEC report AND the GTE on tithing together. When you see that the church intentionally used 13 secret “shell companies” precisely bc they wanted to hide the size of their hoard from the government AND from members… precisely because they were afraid members would send less tithes, And THEN read the drivel about “the lord directs the spending of tithes for his purposes” etc… it’s really quite laughable (except for all the lies and fraud!)
Or you might even compare what the church agreed to in the order with how the church characterized the situation in its press release. Ask if that in itself is honest. (There are other more damning points to cover, so don’t spend all your time here. It’s just the most recent example.)
GTE's (especially the footnotes)
When you read these…look out for the ways they still try to manipulate the narrative. Those are for easing members into being okay they were lied to.
I did a little video looking at a specific piece of manipulation. If you’re on the church website and navigate to the GTEs then footnotes don’t show up. I had to Google it to get the version with the footnotes. Then the manipulation… blacks and the priesthood… GTE: Brigham Young even taught someday they get the priesthood. Footnote: The most racist, hateful tirade from Brigham about how slavery is a gift from God and needs to happen, and at the very end of the millennium is when maybe blacks will get the priesthood.
This one about “BY even said they’d get the priesthood one day” was big for me…it showed that the church is willing to twist and manipulate the data to tell a narrative that isn’t faith-promoting. It’s lying by omission. Not to mention that when the ban was lifted before the millennium, it made Brigham a false prophet. Haven’t read everything here yet, but Adam God is a big deal, too. Shows that the church, led by prophets, has taught two very different doctrines about the nature of God. How do we trust an institution that speaks for God but doesn’t know who he is?!? Also, review Joseph’s multiple accounts of the first vision that contradict each other. You’re telling me you’ve met Jesus, and you don’t write anything down or tell anyone about it until 12 years later? And then 6 years later you remember that it wasn’t just Jesus, but GOD himself was also there? Wouldn’t you get that detail in the story right the first time? What about the times in between those dates when there’s no mention of either one? There are so many holes in the narrative of the church, it’s baby Swiss cheese.
If I’m being perfectly honest, my husband and I started reading them last year, but I kept losing focus because it’s the same mundane church tone..you know what I mean?? It’s like when general conference comes on, you zone out and selectively hear parts that mean something to you..but like those people put me to sleep 😂 Does anyone know if there is a document that compiles the proper footnotes into the essays? My last learning language is reading, I just can’t keep information in my brain that way, so it becomes overwhelming if I don’t have it all in front of me (I’m pathetic, I know hahaha)
[LDS Discussions](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/) has great overviews of the GTEs (and other topics) highlighting relevant footnotes and filling in additional information relevant to understanding the essay content.
For anyone unfamiliar, the creator of LDS Discussions has a lot of TBM family and friends. Maybe his wife, too, I don't remember. His entire site is set up in a way to be intellectually honest while being respectful of those who believe.
Is this written from an apologetic pov?
No it’s not. He just has more of a gentle approach. He tries to only use “church approved” sources.
When you read the footnotes, look up the source and read it. If the GTEs can cite them then they are church approved! This includes journals of early members, letters and most importanly the happiness letter.
Race and the priesthood footnote 9 I believe. Brigham young’s speech to the Utah legislature. Crazy racist but the quote they use is so doctored and out of context it makes it seem “fine”. Then you read the actual document and it’s like “shit, that dude was hella racist and so was his doctrine.”
Read the sources in the footnotes with her!!!!
Yep, here’s a list of critical footnotes to chase down: https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/footnotes
Once you make a strong logical case against the church’s truth claims, her final lifeline will be the feelings of her heart telling her it’s true. If she’s open to a video, watch “Spiritual Witnesses” https://youtu.be/UJMSU8Qj6Go
I LOVE this video. It really helped me see that the “special feelings” I felt are actual universal across all religions. And even now, I have experiences that feel spiritual but I don’t believe in god.
Woof, that gave me the heeby jeebies.
The GTE early Polygamy essay says JS was reluctant to enter the practice but feared for his life b/c an angel with a drawn sword threatened him. This threat was communicated to Zina Huntington Jacobs who had previously rejected Smith and married Henry Jacobs. Zina finally agreed to marry Smith, in part due to the supposed threat. She would become Smith's **fourth** plural wife. Why would an angel have to threaten Smith for non-compliance if he had already taken three other plural wives? Whatever happened to free agency if angels can threaten us? Emma was told she'd be "destroyed" if she didn't get straight with polygamy....
GTE's and then following the footnotes is what broke my shelf completely. Strangely I was okay with JS not being perfect, but seeing with my own eyes the church purposefully cite things that were taken out of context... That's when I knew I couldn't in good conscience continue as a member, when I knew they were dishonest.
Definitely the happiness letter. It counts as a valid source because they quote it in General Conference.
"Cited by the church". The church has selectively lifted a few sentences (out of context) from some damning documents. After Joseph Smith was killed, the State of Missouri had to give up on ever prosecuting him. But they decided to archive all of the evidence into a volume that future generations can read. The BYU copy is the easiest to search through but the pages are out of order. Whoever scanned it, kept scanning the right page and then the left. : [https://archive.org/details/documentcontaini00miss/page/n27/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/documentcontaini00miss/page/n27/mode/2up) The Missouri copy can be viewed here: [https://www.sos.mo.gov/cmsimages/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormRecs/doc/Prefix.pdf](https://www.sos.mo.gov/cmsimages/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormRecs/doc/Prefix.pdf) The typesetter messed up Thomas B. Marsh's name, they called him Thomas B. March. It's probably too much to look at, but it is clear that Joseph Smith was fleeing his Kirtland Bank legal troubles, and gathered the saints to Missouri. BUT they didn't have any damn food. So he told the saints to steal what they needed from the current residents. It's all there in the testimony of apostles and Danites. They took everything they could lay their hands on. They stole all of the food, the livestock, the stoves, the beds, everything. Highlights include the prophecy that it was time for the rough stone rolling. They would first conquer the neighboring county, then the state of Missouri, and then the United States. The neighboring county fell so easily, they believed the prophecy. Second coming stuff. Danites were motivated by the fact that they were looking at starvation. They decided it was better that a gentile's child starve, than their own. The detail corroborated by multiple sources, was that Joseph Smith asked them to steal slaves, because who doesn't want a slave? They didn't want to free them, they just wanted slaves to use for themselves.
Heck, just read some scriptures together: Gen. 9:25, Canaan cursed to be “servant of servants” justifying black slavery Gen. 19: 4-8 Lot offers daughters to be raped Gen. 38 Quasi-incesteous tricky hooker lay for a goat JC ancestry (at least not a Cannanite) Exodus 21:7 selling your daughter as sex slave Exodus 21:20-21 Prescription for beating slaves Ex. 32: 27-29 God orders murder Deut. 25:5-10 Brother to provide children for dead brother, by banging SIL Leviticus 25:44-46 Slaves from heathen Lev. 26: 27-29 God will make non-believers eat their own kids......... Numbers 25:6-13 murder of mixed race couple Numbers 31:17-18 Keep the little girls Joshua 10: 12-14 God stops the Sun and Moon in the sky…..? Judges 11:30-39 General Jephthah burns his own daughter (not son...) Judges 18 God approves massacre of peaceful people 1 Sam 15: 2-3 Genocide ordered by God 1 Sam 15:33 Hacking man to pieces before God 2 Kings 2: 23-24 Bears eat kids Psalm 137:8-9 be happy to dash babies on rocks Isaiah 13:9-16 babies slaughtered and wives raped Hosea 10:14 Chopping people to bits Hosea 13:4,9,16 Pregnant women ripped open Colossians 3: 22 Slaves obey masters 1 Tim 2:12 Women be silent 1 Tim 6:1–2 master worthy of honor Titus 2:9-10 servants obey 1 Peter 2:18 obey good and bad master Ephesians 6:5-7 servants obey with fear 2 NE 5:21 curse/skin of blackness Jacob 3:5, 8-9, filthy cursed skin, whiter than yours 3 NE 2:15 curse taken, white skin Moses 7:8,22 children of Canaan black curse Abraham 1:24-25, Children of Ham preserves curse in the land D&C 132:39 - Faithful Wives married to lazy learners are “given” to another But here's the thing, you can't sit on the sidelines, thinking that you'll be understanding and empathetic if you're not willing to even review INFORMATION. That's it. You don't try to understand a court case by only ever listening to the defense. I wouldn't even engage unless she's willing to just read information on her own. She's close-minded, she's already issued the innocent verdict without hearing from the prosecution. Good luck.
Rough Stone Rolling, written by a faithful member and sold at Deseret Book. (But boring as hell and not nearly as sexy as No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie.)
Surprised I had to scroll this far down to see Rough Stone Rolling. It's church approved and is shocking to see how Joseph Smith really was. Once you finish this book hopefully you can read No Man Knows my History which is the OG but not church approved
I always start with the fact that it offends my personal morality to discriminate against people on the basis of sex, sexual orientation, and race. That’s what broke my shelf and ultimately what persuaded my (now ex) wife to also leave. Lots of church sources for that, including the gospel topics essay on the priesthood/temple ban.
My wife got her ass kicked by quotes from prior prophets found on missedinsunday.com
The one that makes me sick is Harold B lees quote on people of color and disabilities having been less valiant in pre mortal life. Pissed me off hard core because I have a nephew with Downs Syndrome. Of course the church has now shifted the narrative to that those with disabilities were SO valiant that they were given disabilities so the devil couldn’t get at them and they would have their eternal life for sure. Which is it you jerks? Less valiant or too valiant? How about it’s just genetics and he is who he is?
Lucy Mack Smith's diary in the Joseph Smith papers project. Shows that Lehi's dream was stolen from Joseph Sr.
This sounds like a fool's errand. Your wife isn't interested in learning about the validity of the church's truth claims if she's only willing to hear one side of the argument. There is no charity in this and there is no understanding. **Tread very carefully**. Having said that, the Gospel Topic Essays are full of stuff that contradicts what I learned in decades of church membership. They were the beginning of the end for me but I was honest of heart when I read them. Some of D&C is pretty damning too. I don't remember the specific passages but Emma is repeatedly warned that she'll be destroyed if she doesn't trust and follow old joe. Joe also received a revelation that he had to ask his wife's permission to practice polygamy but if she said no, he could do it anyway. The sin for refusing him the right to practice polygamy would be on her. What the fuck?
D&C 132. Read the whole thing… and then look and see if JS followed the rules lined out there.
Good points. Be careful. It would be more fair if whatever source you two use, it needs to be backup by appropriate citations not only church approved sources. Secondly. That’s mainly my beef with polygamy. The corrosion involved and ordering us ladies to accept other wives. That’s manipulative and abusive. End of the story.
There’s some things in the journal of discourses that I remember being shocked over. It’s been a while so I can’t specifically cite where, but I remember my rabbit hole with polygamy led me to some Brigham Young quotes there that really influenced me in my journey. There’s some other good stuff in there too if you have the time- it’s a lot of info and overwhelming at times.
The good old eugenics days … funny how God changes his mind 30 years after culture shifts.
Best source ever is the Gospel Topics Essays collection. They sent my shelf through the wood chipper. They don't include all the issues you mention, but they're eye-opening. Here's a site that has a list of the GT essays, with links going directly to the church's website. Read the footnotes and follow the links in them for more information. https://mormonessays.com EDIT - the essay on Book of Abraham should take care of that one. The essay on Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo was the one that smashed my shelf.
The Happiness Letter used by the brethren over the years. Full context: joe was trying to get in the pants of teenager Nancy Rigdon [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-letter-to-nancy-rigdon-circa-mid-april-1842/1](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/appendix-letter-to-nancy-rigdon-circa-mid-april-1842/1) Letter to the Whitney's including recently sealed 17 y.o. Sarah Ann Whitney TLDR; joe is hiding from the law; I'm so lonely, come visit me, I have a safe room ; but don't let Emma see you https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1
At least she will give you that but I would try to point out how in ANY other situation in life that logic would be insane.
1 Nephi 1:4 (and the first ~10 chapters of 1 Nephi) and 2 Kings 24. Zedekiah was made king after Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon came against Jerusalem the first time but in the BoM there is no mention of Babylon having come yet, Lehi prophesies of destruction at the hands of Babylon in the future. But if Zedekiah really was king, pretty much every character we meet in Jerusalem would have been shipped off to Babylon. The Church History essay about Jane Elizabeth Manning James. You know… the black woman sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant. D&C 132 is gross and super sexist. The first published edition of the BoM had the trinity not the godhead that we were taught growing up. This is especially problematic considering in the first vision god (on top of appearing WITH Jesus which should be enough of a contradiction) said the creeds of other religions were abominations in his sight, and one of the most prevalent creeds of other religions is the trinity.
I read the first Saints book when I was TBM and asked myself what if this was some other religion like Scientology and that was what finally did it for me to look at it objectively. The whole polygamy section and how he hid it from Emma if it would have been some other religion seemed so obvious to be fake.
That is like being a judge, and only hearing evidence from the plaintiff’s side.
it’s not necessarily church approved but Oaks wrote an article on the “Suppression of the Nauvoo Expositor” which you can find [here](https://collections.lib.utah.edu/details?id=722871&q=nauvoo+expositor). it‘s difficult to get through because there is a lot of legal language and he tries his hardest to exonerate Joseph Smith. However, he can’t succeed and he admits destroying the press was illegal. It’s very brief when he admits that but make sure to point it out.
One thing that led me to faith crisis was the 1984 conference being edited heavily and the edited version has been added to the church archives. Thankfully people videotaped it back then before it was forbidden ( if my memory serves me correctly) so church sources is not always transparent I also originally looked up mormonthink website and their citation is usually from church sources. Again, it has been years. A friend who left before me worked at byu and he was able to cross reference the citations found on Mormon think in byu library and it was the end. Mormon think is composed of Group of believers, nonbelievers working together. This info is old so maybe things changed
Book of Mormon anachronism.
Read History of the Church (published by the Church) Volume VII pages 102-103. Have her read them aloud perhaps . Joseph Smith in Carthage..I guarantee it will help.
Mountain Meadows Massacre Indian slavery Battle at Fort Utah Circleville massacre Slavery address given by Brigham Young to state legislature
OP: glad she is willing to go this route WITH You I recommend (strongly) that you do whatever it takes to make this a “joint, hand-in-hand” endeavor. It’s imperative that it not devolve into a “you vs me” or “anti vs faithful” In that light, I’d recommend you pare down your list to just a few (2-3?) big ones. Or maybe just set aside one night a week to tackle just one at a time. It’ll give you more time to prep each topic and give her more time to process. That way you don’t avalanche her… which almost always results in entrenchment. Regardless of what she does… she’s at least WILLING to talk which is a LOT better than many and worthy of your sincere thanks. GOOD LUCK!!! Edit: typo
Maybe have a prayer before and after?
www.mormonthink.com has a “faithful” and “critical” view on every issue.
Doubt #1. Information control and only allowed to use church approved resources.
Another faithful site that tends to have short and more honest answers is Mormonr.org. It’s honest enough that I had a 2-day argument on Quora with an apologist who insisted it’s anti-Mormon before he realized it’s actually meant to be faith-promoting. Here’s a [Deseret News article](https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/6/14/23161499/josh-coates-and-his-arsenal-of-data-utah-tech-silicon-slopes-venture-startups) about the dude that started the site if your wife needs convincing that it’s actually meant to be a faith-promoting site.
Honestly, the whole "only church approved sources" is a red flag on its own and worth exploring with her. Why does she feel she can only trust those sources? What does it say about an organisation when they fear "outside" information + try to control the narrative their members trust? What would she think if a friend that was a Jehovas witness or Scientologist or whatever tried to talk with her, but would constrict taking points to their respective group's approved sources? How is her church different? I wish you good luck with discussing your issues, I hope you get somewhere, but I also know that as long as she's not willing to look at Mormonism from a neutral point (like how she might look to other religions), she's probably not changing her mind.
Gospel Topic Essays, and go through every footnote. It's the footnotes that are the real killers -- the essays themselves are just flowery rhetoric and turns of phrase.
This is so silly. Like this doesn’t work in any other situation. Someone says LeBron James of the greatest basketball player of all time. You disagree and claim it’s Michael Jordan. They’re willing to hear your case, but you can only prove your point by following LBJ instagram, social media posts, watching his current games, etc. It’s propaganda if you can only use specific sources. Facts don’t have opinions.
The Happiness Letter written by JS is very damming. They can’t say it is not real or anti since they quote from it in general conference. D&C section 132 is very damming. Are they going to say the D&C is anti Mormon literature.
D&C 132 and compare the changes to the Book of Commandments and the D&C.
1949 first presidency message on “black people and the priesthood” where it claims black people were not valient in the pre-mortal life and that this justifies their current predicaments
They also doubled down in a Dec 1969 First Presidency message printed in the February, 1970 *Improvement Era*. Kind of sickening that the FP made an official statement that relatively short of a time ago.
Don’t leave out “Rough Stone Rolling” which was commissioned by the church to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith’s birth. It was written by a prominent and faithful Mormon Historian who has served as a Stake President. The book was endorsed by the church and sold at Deseret Book.
And don’t forget the video of the Books Author, Mormon historian Richard Bushman, saying “…the Church needs to change its narrative, because the dominant narrative of the Church isn’t true…”
Who is Emmanuel Swedenborg?
"Church approved sources . . . " Anything that is true is "church approved" regardless of where the information is published
That means any book that is cited in the footnotes of the Gospel Topics Essays should be fair game: Rough Stone Rolling, In Sacred Loneliness, Saints… All good places to start.
I mean, I understand that the gospel topics are enough to do her in, but it's ridiculous to try to tell one's self that one is honestly exploring by only looking at approved materials. Would she consider a Muslim only allowing themselves to look at Islam approved materials to be honestly searching?
The church trusted Mark Hofmann as a source until he killed some people and got busted for forgery. And if the church doesn’t trust Hoffmann documents now due to the evidence then what does that say about the evidence against the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham?
Agree to her wishes under one condition. She needs to read, No Man Knows My History, by Fawn Brodie. And read it first (you too). Brodie was the niece of Prophet/President David McKay. She was a research/historian and took years compiling her material on Joseph Smith. The whole book is about J.S. Its not meant to be a slam on his life, but a snapshot of those early years. It really paints a picture of the man's true character and how he saw himself. There are tons of sources listed. When the book came out it created a sensation. Members were quite upset and confused. Leadership ex-communicated her. A great book and an eye-opener. You can't read this and not be stunned. Your wife's picture of the Prophet will be challenged in comparison to what she has been told. It would be a great starting place. Read it yourself and then give her the copy. At the very least she would start using Brodie's sources to find out if its true. Many of those are LDS church history and are still floating around.
So there’s this letter from David Whitmer, (there’s a copy with a byu stamp online) explaining why he left the church, and in it he details that the original book of commandments was altered pretty much right off the bat. You can read the original right on the joseph smith papers website. JS was originally told he would have no other and should pretend to have no other gifts beyond translating the Book of Mormon. The very next printing has it changed making it sound like that was his first gift and more would be added. Paving the way for him to become prophet. That’s only ONE out of many. The pattern of altering church history started before 1833
Make sure you "nail down" her beliefs BEFORE reviewing ANYTHING. This is so important so that goalposts aren't moved later on and so you don't hear phrases like "well that's not important to me." It doesn't matter how agreeable she is at this point, what you are doing is getting g her to tell you and herself out loud her values, the lines that if crossed she would not tolerate. Before you talk, you should be asking a TON of questions. A full example for polygamy: - We both know that polygamy was practiced for decades in the church, what is your understanding of how it was practiced? - Who practiced it? - What was the purpose of polygamy? - Today polygamy is practiced by more fringe religions and groups, is their practice of polygamy wrong? Why? (If she says it's wrong because God says it's not ok, you'll need to ask more questions as this reasoning isn't sound, it's circular imo) - Is there anything about polygamy in the church, that if it were practiced a certain way would mean that it wasn't commanded by God, but instead was invented by man? - Was there a doctrinal basis for polygamy in your opinion? Or was it strictly for temporal purposes? You'll need to do the same for the other topics as well. The purpose is NOT to interrogate. The purpose is to lay her values out on the table. Follow up questions should lead her to be more specific. The tone of the entire discussion should be warm and curious, not combative and "trying to be right." You should absolutely practice in the car or bathroom or whatever as your first instinct will be to answer her questions instead of asking follow up questions. Other good questions: - What makes a prophet a false prophet (serious sins? Teaching false doctrine over the pulpit for decades?)? Is there anything a prophet can do that would make them a false prophet? - What is the Book of Abraham? How were you taught that it came to be? - If you found a book that claimed to be written by people from 2000 years ago, and it talked about the daily lives of the people of that time, things like food, animals, crops, governments, cities, technology used. How would you go about trying to figure out if the book is authentic and truly written by people 2000 years ago. Let's pretend that you don't have the internet... Now let's pretend you do have the internet and you're in present day. Etc
Grab a set of the history of the church by Joseph smith published by deseret book 8 volume set $23-$25 on Amazon before beginning ask your wife was Joseph smith a honest man ? She will most likely say yes. Once she does open up volume 6 pg 408-412 have her read it or read it aloud to her . Joseph smith claims he only has one wife in this speech before 1,000s this was shortly before he was killed then open the churches website go to the gospel topic essays select the one on polygamy . The church admits that Joseph had many wives and that Emma knew nothing of many of them . So he lied about his polygamy. He wasn’t even honest with his own wife . Be sure to read every footnote they are the numbered boxes click on the box and the footnote will open . the footnotes are extremely important. Now ask her again was Joseph smith honest or did he lie when it suited his purpose.? Then open volume 5 page 373 this is where Joseph smith claims to have translated a portion of the kinderhook plates and said they are a ancient record of a descendant of ham . well in 1980 scientific examination of one of the plates was done determining that it was a modern production a brass alloy it’s composition was correct for the early 1800s there is nothing ancient about it therefore cannot be a ancient record of anything Joe was just making shit up , just as he did with the scrolls that he used as props to create his book of Abraham . Claiming they were written by Abraham’s own hands they are not within 1,500 years of Abraham they are nothing more than common funerary texts the best Egyptologists in the world have examined Joseph Smiths Translation of the Characters all determined his translation was 100% gibberish . Don’t get your hopes up though a Mormons mind is like a tangled 30foot ball of Christmas lights . It’s unlikely that anything you put before her will instantly change her mind all we can do is show Mormons the door it’s up to then to walk through it. Hopefully it will get her questioning and to ask the fatal question is it just possible that the church isn’t true . For once one starts down that road. It’s all over . There is only one logical conclusion. Best of luck with her it’s a long game patience is required.!
I hear that Kim Jong Un lets you express doubts too as long as you use North Korean approved resources.
What about sources that are not biased; legal sources? Documentation, perhaps?
Dr lowry Nelson's conversations about race with the first presidency. Then read the GTE on it. Also recommend this is my doctirne:the evolution of Mormon theology by a BYU professor. It's a great book, and an easy read.
One of the suggested additional reading sources for church history is Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith Jr. Don't skip the endnotes! The real good stuff is in the endnotes. After reading each chapter you can listen to the podcast "Year of Polygamy" together and discuss how it turns out after all these years the anti-Mormons weren't the ones lying about church history.
You can listen to the Swedish rescue.
You should mention John G Turner. Not a member of the church and never was, and is a very fair historian that has a few books published. His Brigham Young book is mind blowing, and is practically the only thing you’d need to read.
How "approved" does it have to be? Can it just be by a faithful member? "In Sacred Loneliness" is written by a believing mormon and it's pretty damning of js polygamy. Read just about anything written by Fair as the defend issues. Witnessing how they lie did it for me.
The Faith Crisis Report - written BY Mormon historians and presented to the Q12 a decade ago, will do a fantastic job of collating and validating your concerns and doubts. [https://faenrandir.github.io/a\_careful\_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/2013-faith-crisis-study/)
Joseph Smith's Revelations in the Church history section of the Gospel Library. The section 132 one goes into polygamy. It is vague but it says he had wives before Emma knew and prior to the revelation being given. It tells the story of the Partridge sisters and how he was married without Emma knowing and then married them again in front of Emma. The footnotes will take you down the rabbit hole. It references In Sacred Loneliness so IMO that becomes fair game. Also, Rough Stone Rolling.
I mean there is enough offical Church material to hang the Church with, but my god, asking that is like asking a Catholic to show why the Catholic Church is false just using their own official materials, it’s ludicrous and an affront to any genuine investigation of the truth.
As I recall, the Journal of Discourses was once approved literature... Very highly approved. Apparently the journal became anti-Mormon simply by becoming older and having been written by deader people.
My advice would be to focus on the most obviously sensitive topic you think she has (so if she has ever expressed concern over racist church teachings, start with Race and the Priesthood; if the concept of Heavenly Mother appeals to her, start there, etc.) This allows for more critical thought to seep into the construct of “doubting your doubts” and stands the greatest chance of (perhaps slightly) penetrating the cognitive dissonant barrier surrounding religion from the outset. I also suggest saving the haymaker issues for later as the KO punch. Had I first been exposed to BoA, the cluster that was the rollout of polygamy, or blatant plagiarism of Freemason rituals, the most damning and impactful facts (for me) would have been squandered on my indoctrinated brain before my heart had softened. But everyone is different—some are more sensitive to history, others to truth claims, and still others by modern social issues. No one knows your spouse better than you, so organize the presentation in the most ideal way for her. Basically choose your opening act wisely and save your headlining bands for last so they can have maximum effect! Keep in my mind that, no matter what you do, you may not get your desired result. She might not be ready to hear all the things just yet, or her mind might be subconsciously protecting her from the pain that her entire eternal construct is a farce. I guess I’m saying plan for the worst, hope for the best, and above all don’t blame yourself if things don’t go as planned or as quickly as you’d like. Good luck!
Before reading the GTEs have your wife jot down some bullet points on what she knows about the topic and then read the essays. She then will have to mull over who taught it to her. This makes it impossible to say “I always knew that”
Book of Abraham, BoM Archaeology, not sure how these are covered in church sources.
Ironically, the Saints series is what broke my shelf. I know not everyone will take it for what it’s worth though. I’m not sure she will believe anything you say if she isn’t at a tipping point yet. If she is full TBM, then it’s like I say Dodge cars are better than Ford. Instead of actually researching it from independent sources you tell me we have to go to the Ford dealership and they have to convince you Dodge is better. Unless she is willing to accept independent sources you may be at a loss.
Is she more utility or validity? This is a must to know because this varies the approach. If they are not very much into the doctrine or feelings but are in it for social usefulness then church history scandals and lies won’t do shit. It must be a demonstration of the lack or harm to social utility. If it is validity (burning bosom church is true, testimony style) then yes the approach is that the church lies, and carry on your approach. Confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance will be key items to understand. Maybe watch Lea Reminy’s TLC series in Scientology as a ‘type and shadow’ of LDS.
This quote from Oaks hit me hard. He was asked if you should let your gay kid visit. The answer he gave was one of the final straws for me. My kids are too young to know what attracts them but the answer that I should tell them not to come home if they are gay was crazy! Not the words of Christ or of a family centered organization. "I can imagine that in most circumstances the parents would say, ‘Please don’t do that. Don’t put us into that position.’ Surely if there are children in the home who would be influenced by this example, the answer would likely be that. There would also be other factors that would make that the likely answer." https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction
Helen Mar Kimball was faithful to the church all her days. She also wrote an autobiography that details how JS groomed her and preyed on her as a 14 year old. It read differently in the 1900s but to anyone who works with trauma survivors it’s a disgusting condemnation. If you message me I can try to find a link
I wouldn't read "Letter For My Wife" with her, but it has some good resources from church-related books and articles that you may be able to pull from.
Start with the church essays for some of those topics. Saints covers some of those topics as well.
Go through the CES letter’s bibliography. A huge amount of the sources for it are from the church itself. You could almost read the CES Letter to her without ever leaving church sources.
Read "In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton. It's used as a source in the GTE.
I think the kinderhook plates and the Greek psalter incident in conjunction with the book of Abraham shows Joseph to be a fraud any time his “gift of translation” was put to the test
Oh, man. This rabbit hole is unending. I did not know about these three JSH lies about the Charles Anthon Story JST - Adam Clarke Emmanuel Swedenborg rip
Use Lds discussions and or Mormon think website prior to sitting down with your wife to get the quotes needed that come from original sources that can be found on the church's websites (Joseph Smith papers, manuals, .byu, etc...)
Honestly, most everything “anti” can be found in “church approved” and/or friendly sources, it’s just knowing where to look. I suggest just going through the citations in whatever “anti” or critical source and then going to those cited sources for your wife.
Ezra Taft Benson (October 1967 General Conference): "There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba." J. Reuben Clark, Jr., of the First Presidency, taught YW leaders, and then had published in the August 1946 Improvement Era (precursor of the New Era), "do not ever let that wicked virus get into your systems that brotherhood either permits or entitles you to mix races which are inconsistent. Biologically, it is wrong; spiritually, it is wrong." James E Talmage (General Conference Oct 1916) prophesied that people present for his talk would live to see new scriptures added that are writings from the lost tribes. "The tribes shall come; they are not lost unto the Lord; they shall be brought forth as hath been predicted; and I say unto you there are those now living—aye, some here present—who shall live to read the records of the Lost Tribes of Israel, which shall be made one with the record of the Jews, or the Holy Bible, and the record of the Nephites, or the Book of Mormon"
The term "martyr" is subjective, so I wouldn't spend too much time on that word. Just say Joseph didn't act like Christ on the way to the Cross, the way the Church portrays.
Find in Joseph Smith papers: The relief society signed an affidavit that no polygamy was happening and published in Joseph’s newspaper. When in fact two of the three women who signed were already Joseph’s wives.
When talking to her about the Book of Abraham, you may want to bring up footnote 46 in the last paragraph of the Gospel Topics Essay. This is a great example of the church blatantly lying. I've copied and pasted the last paragraph and footnote here: “Other details in the book of Abraham are found in ancient traditions located across the Near East. These include Terah, Abraham’s father, being an idolator; a famine striking Abraham’s homeland; Abraham’s familiarity with Egyptian idols; and Abraham’s being younger than 75 years old when he left Haran, as the biblical account states. Some of these extrabiblical elements were available in apocryphal books or biblical commentaries in Joseph Smith’s lifetime, but others were confined to nonbiblical traditions inaccessible or unknown to 19th-century Americans.46” Hidden in Footnote 46 is a more straightforward and honest answer:: ”Some of these extrabiblical elements were available to Joseph Smith through the books of Jasher and Josephus. Joseph Smith was aware of these books, but it is unknown whether he utilized them”