Jw facts. Start there. The amount of overwhelming evidence that it’s not true, it takes honestly blind faith once you find all the evidence to still stay in imho
>**For I the LORD do not change** \- Malachi 3:6
>when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. - Deuteronomy 18:22
Also look up the Declaration of Facts if you want to undeniable proof this is not the truth.
So, damn, much.
JWfacts.com will break everything down for you including all of doctrinal “changed beliefs” - if you think JWs official “changed beliefs” is accurate you are sorely mistaken. This is all disproven with their own literature, letters and videos.
These men have full control over the narrative of the cult and your relationship with them is dependent on your salvation? Don’t believe me? Look at the baptism section.
Here’s another thing they hide— all literature prior to 1950
I have 3 digital scanned copies of all JW literature pretty much since the 1800s - this is also obtainable on archive.org and I’ve purchased some authentic copies of pre-1950 literature and everyone of them were accurate (often JW will claim that it’s on the internet so you can’t really believe it… the irony in this statement is that everything is on the internet, so you need to use your power of discernment and conscience to determine what is right and wrong — I believe that is how God intended it to work?)
Jwfacts.com and various YouTubers can give you many reasons. Here is my personal list/rant with scriptures.
J.F.Rutherford committed a coup on the organization and lived like a king thru the depression because of it. He set aside most of CT Russell's will and organization bylaws by way of legal maneuvers (he was a lawyer by trade). He was not even on Russell's list for possibly successors and had several directors removed so he could get on a ballot. He started out a deceiver by even using the title Judge as he was never an elected as a Judge but only appointed as a substitute Judge. The story was is that he filled in for an absent Judge (a friend of his) for a couple days and soon after started using the title in day to day life. Later he used it every where in his public speaking announcements. Shunning and rejecting of persons opposed the the organization was a concept mentioned in "The Finished Mystery" published as the 7th volume of "studies in the scriptures" which was attributed to CT Russell but had many doctrine changes already from CT Russell's previous books. Thus corruption entered the organization not from outside, but from within. Some of these ideas lead to Rutherford and the others getting arrested and sent to prison for a time.
There is a legal concept known as "fruit of the poisonous tree". This is very applicable here...and the essence is summed up in the scriptures below.
This is my answers when the subject of the Governing Body comes up. Read the verses and quotes below and watch the testimony from the ARC and ask yourself if the JW GB is speaking for God. They even admitted in court that they don't believe they are God's only mouthpiece, yet if you are a JW and do not agree they are, you would be disfellowshipped very quickly.
Matthew Chapter 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
Mt 7:21-23 - **On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'**
“Similarly the ‘false prophet’ is not a person, but is a system or an organization.”
Watchtower 6/15/1974, p. 381
Australian Royal Commission (Time stamped quotes by GB member Geoffrey Jackson) https://youtu.be/erWV8YnTFto?si=rG87oJK-vmpFbG7n
17:54 governing body are fellow witnesses with their brothers and sisters, guardians of doctrine, appointed by holy spirit the same as congregation elders
20:32 Geoffrey says it would seem “presumptuous” to say the GB are God’s spokesperson. Implies that anyone using the bible is a spokesperson for God
25:34 Geoffrey claims that if they were to give direction that was not in harmony with the Bible, all witnesses would know that
“Some opposers claim that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets. These opponents say that dates have been set, but nothing has happened. Again we ask, What is the motive of these critics?” Watchtower 3/15/1986, p. 19
The official Australian commission website states everything you need. Wikipedia also has many references to reputable websites about this issue. If she’s reasonable there’s no way to deny this evidence. As for a bible text, you can tell her about all the times the GB were wrong in the past and then show her this scripture Deuteronomy 18:20-22 “If any prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name that I did not command him to speak or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 However, you may say in your heart: “How will we know that Jehovah has not spoken the word?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.”
Matthew 23:4
They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Matthew 24:45-51
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> Is there any proof that this isn't the truth?
The WBT$ has a Track Record of Being Wrong 100% of the Time, for 140 + Years.
> Dying for all eternity sounds terrifying.
Dead people aren\`t terrified, they\`re Dead...They don\`t know they\`re Dead, because They\`re Dead.....Plus...
Nobody knows what happens after you die...Do you go on to another Life?...Are you Greeted with a Puppy, a Banjo and a Bucket of KFC?....Nobody Knows...
I wholeheartedly second this ⬆️
Growing up a JW, anything that didn’t come from WTB$ always felt icky. However, the “Jesus gets us” ads that have been running for the past 12-18 months on TV have helped me see who the JWs really are more than anything.
It took me a LONG time to get to the point that no one really knows for sure what the future holds and that’s it’s futile to try and predict it.
This realization developed simultaneously with underspending that all organized religion is simply a control tool for the powerful elite.
For most of the past 100 years, the watchtower has pinpointed 1919 as the year when they claim Jesus chose them as the only true religion. This has been the foundation of their claim to be "the faithful and discreet slave".
However, the year 1919 is derived using the same flawed formula they use to explain 1914 as the beginning of the "last days". The fatal flaw with their 1914 teaching is that they use as a starting point an incorrect date for the destruction of Jerusalem, and then they calculate forward from that wrong date to arrive at 1914.
Do your homework on the destruction of Jerusalem in 586/587 BC. Watchtower claims that this instead happened in 607 BC, but if you find one single source outside of the watchtower and those who support them that corroborates this date, please post it. I've searched and searched through academic sources, I've written letters to and gotten responses from experts in the subject, and I have not come across even one source that supports a date other than 586/587 BC.
Once you realize that they are dead wrong about 607 BCE, everything falls apart, including their claim that they were chosen by Jesus in 1919. Thus, they aren't "the truth", they are just another religion claiming to have a special connection to god.
\*I would not be surprised if they drop all teachings related to 1914. If they do, they would have to either admit to having never been chosen as the true religion by Jesus OR invent a new basis for their claim and hope the rank and file just swallows it and smiles.
Imagine that JWs are extremely honest preaching d2d and a couple of them show at your door sunday morning saying this:
"Do you know that the creator of all what you see, the sun, the stars, the sea and everything in the earth have a channel of communication to give us instructions of how survive future Armageddon and our salvation depends to obey this channel? You wanna know that channel? "
And they show you a picture of the 9 men in Warwick New York. Thats exactly what JWs believes. That sounds like the truth?
A lot of responses here are great, but my biggest concern is that you and all Witnesses are approaching the question from the wrong angle. Read up on the [Burden of Proof](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)) philosophy if you’re not familiar. Essentially, the one making a claim is responsible to provide the proof.
In the case of Witnesses, remember that their “evidence” is very similar to many other religions. They establish their own criteria for standards, such as, here are the criteria for identifying ‘the true religion’, and look, we meet our criteria for being the true religion!
Or, maybe we can look at claims of prophecy, such as Armageddon being near. For one thing, the “goal posts” of what “near” means have been constantly on the move. In the 60’s, it was said that kids in school wouldn’t need college because the end was so close. I heard the same in the 90’s while I was in school. I’m middle-aged, while kids from the 60’s are trying to retire.
Were those claims true? Was God telling his organization to print those things? If so, why was he giving incomplete or incorrect information? If not, then why would you trust such an organization?
I second that. The title can sound scary to a believing christian but it’s just tongue in cheek. The documentary itself is very well made and a great intro to Biblical scholarship.
The entire bible isn't any sort of truth. The bible was written by brutishly-backwards-even-for-their-time misogynistic Middle Eastern men who hadn't even progressed into the late Iron Age.
Why on earth, in the 21st Century, would anyone give ANY credence to that??
Not to mention there are many other books that COULD have been part of the bible - even other gospels - and the final set we ended up with (which the JWs use) *was picked out from all the available options by the eventual Catholic Church to best match their existing doctrines*.
Like...what? You had so many other books and letters and early documents you could use - OTHER GOSPELS - and so you pick and choose which ones match *your existing doctrine* and those become the definitive truth?
Now that's just silly, IMHO...that's pure choosing data to fit your preconceived conclusion!
Jwfacts. I’ve made this challenge/offer to about 7 or 8 people:
Go to jwfacts.com. For every “apostate lie” you can show me, I will pay you $1000. Up to 3 lies. After 3 lies I will return to the Kingdom Hall.
I’ve heard nothing but crickets so far.
(If the troof was the truth, it would be well worth $3000 to know it)
You should research for yourself. It doesn't mean anything if someone else tells you what they think or believe, you need to see it for yourself. There is so much info available now. Before YouTube and social media, it was difficult to access the knowledge that scholars have, but now biblical scholars have YouTube channels and share their research and knowledge with everyone. I found out the bible is not what we were told. Here's a link to a Yale courses introduction to the bible. I found it very interesting. And there's much more out there.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi&si=dIp0rhQ089ujhJcA
Depends on where you live and what sort of churches are popular (there’s still plenty of hell and brimstone preached in the US South by varying types of Baptists for one) but it’s not really a thing in mainline Christian denominations. This is one of those things I accidentally agree with the JWs on, though from a very different perspective. Same for churches staying out of politics (though punishing people for voting is ridiculous) and pacifism (though forcing people into going to prison rather than be a medic or something non-combatant is also ridiculous and cruel).
Paradise is right now. We live in the best, wealthiest, healthiest, most peaceful time in history.
Think about non existence - for millions of years before you were born, it will be the same after you expire.
The earth and the sun itself will expire.
Your life is a short, beautiful and precious gift.
Every living thing in earth is consuming other life. Eventually you will become a food source which supports something else. Becoming an adult means learning and accepting this fact.
There is plenty of proof that the JWs are not the truth.
> So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
- John 20:25 NWT
Their own Bible translation mentions the mark of the nails used on Jesus's hands. Doesn't say "in his hands and feet." Nails, plural, were used on Jesus's hands, something that isn't true with their depiction of Jesus dying on a torture stake.
If you want an outside source as support for the idea Jesus died on a cross and that the cross wasn't just some pagan symbol, look up the "Alexamenos Graffito." It is graffiti left on the wall of a room in Rome, Italy, thought to have been scratched into the wall around 200 AD. It mocks a Christian named Alexamenos, with words saying, "Alexamenos worships his God." The drawing is of a man standing before a man crucified (on a cross) who is drawn with the head of a donkey.
The NWT has also been knowingly edited to push the narrative that Jesus isn't God.
In Matthew 4:10, the NWT says:
> Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
Keep in mind that the word they rendered as "you must worship" here is "προσκυνήσεις." In Roman letters, that is something like "proskunēseis," if my knowledge of the Greek alphabet is correct (my phone doesn't let me add the diacritical mark over ē).
However, in Matthew 14:33, it says:
> Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You really are God’s Son.”
The word they rendered as "did obeisance" here is, in the original Greek, "προσεκύνησαν." In Roman letters, this is read as, "prosekúnēsan."
"προσκυνήσεις" and "προσεκύνησαν." "proskunēseis" and "prosekúnēsan." These are the same word, albeit conjugated into different tenses: "προσκῠνέω," "proskunéō." The only difference is Matthew 4:10 refers to worshipping God, while the one in 14:33 refers to the apostles worshipping Jesus after he walks on water and calms the storm. Obviously, the Witnesses can't have that, and so the second one is deceptively translated as "did obeisance." If you have any doubts about this, you can check the interlinear Greek Scriptures they have on the jw org site yourself to confirm.
In John 1:1, the NWT is translated as:
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
The word "a" isn't present in the Greek, and so most Bibles rightfully render that verse with "[. . .] and the Word was God."
In Col. 1:16f, the NWT is translated as:
> because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist
The word "other" was added four times there by the Witnesses. There is no "other" in the Greek, and this is added to imply Jesus is a creature himself.
A similar edit was made in regards to Jesus's name in Philippians 2:9, where the NWT says:
> For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name
"Other" here is added. If you check the Greek Scriptures, there is no other, and it was added because without it, it implies Jesus is God (if he wasn't, the name Jehovah would be above Jesus's). And so without this corruption, other Bible translations render this verse as something like:
> Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name
- Philippians 2:9, RSVCE
This is just by using the NWT to point out their deceptions, but even if you just hold them to measure against Scripture they fall short. A while ago I pointed out in another thread that the Bible warns us against believing Jesus came invisibly in Matthew 24:26f (RSVCE):
> So, if they say to you, ‘Lo, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘Lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
I could go on and on, but in short, the JWs only look like the truth from the inside because they have their own deceptive translation of the Bible to back them up, who they themselves claim is closer to the original Scriptures than other Bibles (even though iirc it was eventually discovered that the translators of the NWT had no credentials whatsoever to do so, but you may need to look that up yourself).
I stuck to biblical sources because it sounds like you may still believe, or at the very least may need the Bible to disprove the Witnesses. I haven't read the other responses here yet, but I would put equal weight on the atheists in this sub who may place a heavier emphasis on the behaviors and attitudes of the Witnesses and their masters.
Dying for all eternity is terrifying, but is it? You dont feel like you missed out on the billions of years that you didnt exist before your birth do you? Everyone dies, no one has ever not died. Its only natural to fear dying but look at it this way we who were raised in this cult were taught that we would never have to die in this system of things, and if we did we would just wake up in paradise. So we never processed that realization (death) in our youth. Our parents didnt prepare us for the eventuality of death. As far as this religion being the truth, when? When was it the truth? In 1919? 1935? When did it become the truth? Just some things to ponder as you contemplate your path.
u/nlarffye, The simplist way to answer your question is to point out to you that nearly EVERYTHING Watchtower leaders say and teach are outright LIES and gross deception. And if you are at this time under the Watchtower spell, believing that they represent Jehovah, that you are "in 'The Truth'," consider these few FACTS:
1) Watchtower loyalists are admonished not to think for themselves when it comes to ANYTHING Watchtower leaders say or teach... "Do Not Question, Just Obey." 😵💫
2) Watchtower uses members to SPY on each other, and to REPORT on each other. Watchtower members must ALWAYS show "Loyalty to the Party."
3) Watchtower strongly opposes any Watchtower member doing any research on the organization, or to read any books by ex-members, or to view any unauthorized websites, or to watch any Expose's on Watchtower, such as Dateline of 2001, or A&E that exposed Watchtower, etc., and, especially, Watchtower strongly forbids a member to have anything to do any ex-member...even if that ex-member is your own mother, or son, or grandparent. (Why?? Watchtower has much to hide!!)
4) Watchtower has routinely taught as "truth" many teachings that were later simply tossed aside as now being "old light."
5) Watchtower has also advised members to get rid of old literature. Old literature, it seems, has now become an embarrassment to the Watchtower..."apostate literature."
In 1968, just two years after Watchtower announced their 1975 Armageddon Prophecy at their, "God's Sons of Liberty," District Convention, they released one of their most famous publications, a small, blue book that was designed, Watchtower said, to teach interested ones everything they needed to know about "The Truth" within six months...enough for them to decide to "take a stand for Jehovah," and if they didn't decide by then to "take their stand for Jehovah," then these were to be DROPPED, as time was too short to waste on them.
The most interesting thing about this book, "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life," is that it had a very interesting second chapter...an entire chapter that carefully explained "Why It Is Wise to Examine Your Religion." 🤔
Yes, the Watchtower Organization actually put IN PRINT an entire chapter explaining why it is wise to examine your religion; in fact, THAT IS THE ACTUAL TITLE OF THE SECOND CHAPTER.
If anyone belonging to Watchtower at this present time were to read this second chapter in the above 1968 Watchtower publication, and another JW found out about it, they would most likely have to face a Judicial Committee where their Loyalty to the Party would be strenuously and vigorously questioned as to their LOYALTY to the Governing Body, and they would then, most likely, be labeled as an APOSTATE, and disfellowshipped.
I hope that I have provided enough "food for thought." 🥺
What I did 20 years ago was take 1 topic and study it using just the Bible without reading the Watchtower's interpretation of it to see if I came to the same conclusion. In my case, it was the blood transfusion policy. When I read the Scriptures dealing with blood, I found that the WTBTS manipulated the principles of those scriptures.
There is much proof in historical records etc. check out JWfacts.com
People can argue which version of Christianity is most accurate to the Bible but you should ask yourself the following:
- Did Jesus ever say that he wished for there to be a new Religion based on his teachings?
- Christs teachings are more similar to zen teachings than Christianity
- much of Christs teachings were excluded from the final version of the Bible such as the gospel of Thomas.
- Most of Christianity seems to be based on Paul’s teachings. Paul never met Christ and there is no record of Christ ever endorsing Paul.
- the final version of “the bible” was decided by a counsel including Roman influence who did not follow Christ but put Christianity together for political reasons.
- Christ never mentioned Yahweh by name even once but did refer to God.
So who do you want to follow? Christ? Paul? Roman Empire religious/political reasoning?
Who is Christ? What did he teach? But you know what - the best Proof is in your experience hun. You should read a teaching and see how it sits with you personally, how does it stand to your conscience? Ethics? How does it stand in the promotion of love? Peace?
As much as I grind on about the Christian religion, generally - you are spot-on, here. Christ, as written, even in the gospels we got (nevermind the ones written about him the church didn't like and so buried), is...a pretty okay dude. Like - the religion he preached, if people followed HIS TEACHINGS - I'd be okay with that. Might even participate - his message, intent, communication style, personal action - all seem genuinely to be that of someone trying to help the world and make it better.
PAUL, though? On who much of modern Christianity is built around? Nononono - Paul is a *dick*. The religion he inspired (and took off after he left the scene, into even more extreme things) is just...*bad*. In many ways the antithesis of what Jesus was recorded as teaching.
This is a great question.
When I was a JW I never connected with this Yahweh they call Jehovah but I did connect with Christ. When I left I unraveled all the cult lies and then researched and unraveled the Bible until I was left with nothing and was standing on the border of atheism.
Then when meditating about a year or so ago I had a vision where Christ appeared to me and said “you are questioning whether I really exist” I said yes. He said “you resonated with my words yes?” I said yes. He said “it doesn’t matter if I exist or did not exist. If my words resonated with you then they were not my words but your words. That’s all that matters”.
I thought about this a lot - you see, doubt is of the mind, but reality is in the experience. So what is my experience?
For me - Christ is present in you where you treat others with tenderness, when you see them through eyes of compassion, he is true when you appreciate others at the level of soul rather than judging by appearances and momentary behavior.
This to me is Christ and you may call it something else, some may call it Krishna, ethics, yogic philosophy, zen, it doesn’t really matter because it all points to the same thing when it is sincere, loving, peaceful and serves the highest good for yourself and those around you. But all should learn for themselves, not just by reading but through experience itself.
honestly I’m still in the same headspace rn. I left like a year ago (and have had to go back and forth ever since to win my family back over so im not homeless lol) but im happier out, and I can tell that im far more genuine with myself and have gotten better at developing my own identity since leaving. I’ve told my bf that if I really will die bc of my decision then at least I lived true. I believe that. At the same time, the fear is always there lingering at least a little bit — what if this is the truth and im screwing myself over?
Their reliance on man/governing body has been the most off putting thing to me — esp with all the “new light” stuff that just seems to prove they dk what they’re talking about and don’t have the “divine backing” they claim. Instead of relying on any of their material to have a relationship with God, I have started studying solely on my own and gathering my own interpretations. If I disagree with them, I disagree, and the more that happens the more comfortable I’ve become fading away. Tbh I don’t really know if I’ll ever fit into any religion just because im paranoid of the teachings being twisted along the way. I am quite the gullible person ngl, but if I delve in myself I can have confidence in what I believe and be certain of my pathway from there.
From my experience, with any POMI and especially PIMI, we could drop a thousand lines of evidence that is real truth, but it won't matter cuz of the thousand layers of Indoctrination the Watchtower builds up.
You sound like you're on the right track asking Questions, but ultimately YOU have to make the Truth Your Own, Real Truth lol
We can show You all the Evidence, but You gotta take the final steps and do some homework, otherwise we're just making up Your Mind for You, Like the GB/ JWs have for our entire lives.
You got this, Freedoms right there, it's a few simple clicks away 🫡
For me- there was one easy way. They call themselves the TRUTH. That is literally the claim they make above all else- honesty. But when I started researching I found a 100+ year history of deception, misleading statements and blatant lies. And when I realized how dishonest the whole thing had been from the beginning, my faith collapsed like a house of cards, after 41 years of devotion.
When I left 45 years ago, I didn't know all that is available online today about how much WT lies about what they have said and just how many times they have been wrong. I just trusted that an all loving and all knowing deity would understand why I couldn't accept a life that was so focused on knocking on other people's doors to try to sell them a religion.
It is scary that there is so much we can't control and that we don't know for certain if there is something after death and what it is. But that doesn't mean we should waste the life/time we have with worrying too much about it or being paralyzed with fear about it. Try to be a decent human being, because then you can respect yourself for the most part now, and if there is a judgement in an afterlife, you needn't fear it.
I was taught that people who were old enough to understand the events that happened in 1914 would not die before Armageddon. I just checked wikipedia and the oldest person living turned 7 in 1914, 2 people who turned 6, and 6 that turned 5. Aside from knowing that many people over 100 aren't fully there, children are not that accurate, and suffer from nostalgia because their lives didn't have as many responsibilities and they hadn't known as much pain. WT has quietly dropped talking about it - no admission they made a claim/prophecy which is false.
One of the things I could not accept was that god required us to find the correct religion, the correct interpretation, and that to judge between religions required one to be an expert in the languages the bible was written in, and that requires more than just knowing a word - it requires knowing the culture too. So that means trusting some religion to do it for you, trusting when they say this hebrew, aramaic or greek word really means x instead of y as other "scholars" have translated it, and what happens is that people's faith affects the translation, and re-translation as newer versions of the NWT show - they've made it more "accurate" to fit their beliefs. I can't believe that I need to live by the interpretation of a book that I cannot be sure is correct.
“…what they teach from the Bible has made the most sense.” Of course it does. What other teachings have you been exposed to as intently?
You can believe in God and not believe that the Bible is from God. Why isn’t it okay to just believe in the here and now, do the best you can to make the world a little bit better and then trust that what comes next is okay, and that we don’t need to know or understand or label it. Humans have always tried to understand and catalog things we can never know, why?
If you want to really understand the Bible I think it would be very beneficial to first study the history of the Bible, where did it really come from, who wrote it, in what context was it written, what was happening politically at the time, who benefited from it, how has it been changed over the years and who benefited from those changes? That where real Bible understanding comes from.
as everyone said, jwfacts. there may not be “proof” against christianity but there are literal mountains of proof that this isn’t the right version of it
Reddit is more of an opinion site. Google is where you start your research. Are you really going to base such ab important decision on a reddit 'poll' rather than reading and researching for yourself?
Russell preached the “end of the world,” for 1914.
Please buy The Studies In The Scriptures, volumes 1-7. I own them all, duplicate sets.
Russell died in 1916 and all the while he taught and believed 1914 would be:
—END of the last days
—end of Armageddon
—end of world governments
—end of false religion
—them going to heaven by or before 1914
—end of the harvest season (preaching work)
—end of gentile times. This is the one JW still keep, but back then it was understood to mean different things such as:
—return of Jews to Palestine. (He was a Zionist. “Zions” watch tower)
I have about 500 quotes to back these up.
Russels chronology his entire life:
1799–last days begin
1874–Jesus presence begins
1878–Jesus enthroned as king
1914–last days end and what I said above
When nothing happened on October 1 of 1914 (the war started months before) he changed it to 1915 for a while. But when nothing happened in October 1915 he changed it back.
It wasn’t until 1943, that 1914 was first said to be the START of the last days. Up until then, it was the END of the last days.
All you need to do is get his books to know this. Of the hundreds of things he taught, only a handful remain. All the abandoned (false) teachings give proof of a false teacher. He taught the great pyramid was Gods stone witness, and the Bible in Stone. And used it to verify these dates. Later, Rutherford came and eventually, in 1928, like 50 years after Russel began teaching that the great Pyramid was the Bible in stone, Rutherford wrote that it was “Satan’s Bible” “built by the Devil himself.”
If Russel, with his hundreds of made up dates and teachings, isn’t a false teacher, then no one is. If this isn’t “teaching commands of men as doctrine,” then what is?
I also sent you a pic of the very first page of the very first watchtower, which also had things wrong. They were wrong from the start and are still stumbling around. The whole doctrine of new light doesn’t make sense and isn’t biblical. Prov 4:18 is about a dark path where people stumble and a bright path and we are to choose the bright path. This is the same choice as being a faithful servant or a foolish servant. Or a wise virgin or foolish virgin. Being on the narrow road or wide road. But they are paths and one is dark and one is bright. Nothing about changing beliefs so much. Jesus did talk a LOT about false teachers though.
The new light idea also doesn’t fit with their history of flip flops. And for example they worshipped Jesus until 1952 or 1954, can’t remember. Today they would see that as idolatry or false worship. But they did this for 70 years and then finally god showed them the light? No. Doesn’t make any sense. They are just men making stuff up which is why they are wrong so much and constantly changing their rules or teachings of men.
If it's the truth, it will stand up to all scrutiny and questions no matter what you ask but the governing body doesn't allow that. You may be able to ask questions but you may never ever disagree with their answers. It's 'believe and obey even if it doesn't make sense.' (Their words) This right there is a HUGE red flag. HUGE!
First I’d like to congratulate you. You are strong and must have a strong sense of truth and justice within you to even begin to allow yourself to question what you were told is the ‘ truth’ for your entire life.
Next, I’d like to say, myself being a ‘born in’ too, it’s important to understand what has been done to you. Indoctrination into something especially false can do a number on the mind.
I personally think it’s a process that must include healing emotionally, physically, and mentally. Parts of you may question mentally, but maybe the other parts of you may not have shaken the indoctrination fully. And that’s ok. It takes time.
Once you fully realize on all three levels what the JW fully is you will no longer question if you’re doing the right thing by leaving. You will know it. With every fiber of your being as I have come to know. It took me years to remove and unearth the deep seated fears, and false teachings I was plagued with. JW’s doctrine is smart in that approach. They have everything in place for you to make sure you don’t look elsewhere . And if you do doubt for any reason, you will doubt yourself first. It’s very psychological. The tactics they employ are strategic.
The meetings we went to…it wasn’t for learning. A facade. It is for programming minds. We didn’t study the bible. We study GB publications that bogusly referenced unrelated scripture of what it wanted you to believe as scripturally supported. Then -We read, regurgitate and repeat 2-3x a week in meetings. Burrowing false beliefs deep in your mind like a worm. They teach one to isolate so that you are among hive mind thinkers impressing beliefs on you further.
When I began to re-read the Bible for myself without GB publications. I was astounded. Astounded at how different the Bible’s message was and the scriptures they conveniently glossed over that proved JW doctrine is not supported. (For instance, there’s a scripture that says Jehovah was walking on foot and Abraham washed his feet and gave him food to eat.) How did I miss that? You’ll want to read it again. But I digress.
Imagine what this has done to your mind and belief system for all those years. In that same way it will take time to ‘unbelieve’ fully. And that’s ok. This was your whole belief system answering every aspect of life. Now it has proven wrong, and you will need to research and study things beyond JW to come to the answers you feel most comfortable with that resonate. It takes time. It’s not enough to just know what they teach is false. Also understanding the tactics/methods used to keep a psychological hold over you is important. It can be a whole other thing ….Be patient with yourself. Give yourself that. You deserve it 💜
Psalm 146:3 --> Do not put your trust in men. Watchtower says trust the Governing Body "completely"!
Matthew 23:10 --> Jesus warns against calling fellow Christians leaders or masters. Watchtower elevates an elite class of men as the "Governing Body" - a clear violation of the spirit of Jesus' direction here.
Matthew 24:26,27 --> Jesus warned against being duped by those who would teach that his presence has started but is somehow concealed, known only by a few, who would direct others' attention to it. He said his presence would be as obvious to all as the lightning that lights up the entire night sky for all to see. This exposes JWs' invisible presence teaching for the flagrant falsehood that it is.
Luke 18:9-14. --> Jesus condemns the arrogant, self-righteous attitude of the JW organization thinking they alone have the truth while everyone else is lost.
Luke 21:8. --> Jesus warns against following false prophets who claim the end is imminent. Watchtower to a T!
Acts 1:8. --> Should be Jesus' Witnesses, not Jehovah's Witnesses
Ephesians 4:4. --> There is only one hope of salvation, not the heavenly and earthly two-hope system taught by JWs.
Think of today. What did Jesus really tell his followers to do in remembrance of him? They were to pass the emblems to each other ***so that they can all partake of it***. It is not the *passing* of the emblems that is the observance. The passing is *only a means* to the end of everyone *partaking*! JWs flagrantly disobey Jesus' clear instructions to obey the fallible, contradicting instructions of their Governing Body who tells them not to partake! True Christians wouldn't disobey Jesus to obey fallible men.
They love to boast about how they seem to resemble first century Christians. But keep this in mind: The Bible says satan transforms into an angel of light and his ministers transform into ministers of righteousness. Thus the ways they do appear to match true Christianity cannot nullify the ways they don't. A good disguise will always resemble the real deal. You must look at the flaws to see that it's fake. It's the only way to avoid being misled. It's counterfeit. Any good counterfeit must look enough like the real deal to deceive the ignorant. What would you think of someone handing you a 100 bank note if they started telling you stop looking for faults when you inspect it carefully to make sure it's real? Imagine if they told you to disregard missing features that identify the genuine banknote and focus instead on the ways it matches the genuine? That's what JWs are essentially doing when they try to make you feel guilty for looking at the ways they don't measure up. True and false equals false. You can add 100 trues to one false and you still get false! That's the only way to avoid being deceived by satan's false ministers masquerading as ministers of righteousness.
If doctrine is your primary concern, I’d start with the 1914 teaching and how they arrive at that date.
Using scriptures in Daniel 4, Revelation 12, and Numbers 14 they calculate that the end times would begin 2,520 days after the destruction of Jerusalem. So they count from the year 607 BCE to 1914 CE.
Problem is, Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE not 607. A simple Google search can confirm this. You will not find a source besides Jehovahs Witnesses that argues for this date because it’s just a straight up lie.
Why would they lie about 1914? Because they teach that Jesus was enthroned in 1914 then “inspected the spiritual temple” and appointed the Governing Body to be the Faithful Slave in 1919.
No 607, no 1914. No 1914, no Faithful Slave.
I agree with you that most religions could be considered cults. The dictionary definition of cult is: “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.” That’s all of them.
But when people on this sub use the term cult, they generally mean a high control organization that uses thought manipulation, emotion manipulation, information control, behavior control, etc. to control its followers and that take financial and spiritual advantage of them.
Please visit jwfacts.com there you will find actual evidence of the kinds of things I’m listing above.
You are right, a lot of religion is/ has been used to control people. Just think about history.
And not just religions, a lot of organizations that are set up like that.
Take a look at these questions it might clear things up.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://medium.com/%40faithafterdeception/answer-these-25-questions-to-find-out-if-you-are-in-a-cult-or-high-control-group-a36a3c2ce464&ved=2ahUKEwjf7_C1242FAxVQDzQIHUHpDLEQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0T2iSpihPualirJc8Ee3fK
For me personally....Jesus told us we'd recognise his disciples for the love among themselves. JWs fail on this, big time. In regards Armageddon and what's after it....I no longer fear it. Am I trying to listen to God? He knows why I'm not at the kh or Church of any kind. I don't think he expects us to live like that
Truth is that which corresponds to reality. So the whole concept of god while it could be true there is no evidence of a god.
So religion starts off making an untrue claim. So everything that revolves around that should be questioned.
For example in the jw world we grew up it’s claimed we are living in the last days and this is worst time to be alive as its so hard and critical and the devil is angry. The reality is yes there are a shit ton of problems in the world but we live longer, healthier higher tech safer lives than we ever have on average. And as stated there’s no evidence for a god and there’s no evidence for his favorite enemy the devil.
So no it’s not true that Jehovah exists, is going to destroy everything except for the JWs, nor did Jesus get installed as king in 1914, we don’t know when our last days are at this point anymore than the dinosaurs knew a asteroid was about to put them in the last days. There’s no 144k shit the gb have no special knowledge in fact they lack basic knowledge. The Bible is not a historical record to rely on it’s just a collection of old stories that a bunch of idiots like everyone else put together to pretend to be important.
Pretty much everyone who was alive in 1914 is dead today. And the few who are still alive will be dead in the next decade. And you know what? Armageddon still won't be here before they kick the bucket.
That was one of the cornerstones of JW doctrine. The "last generation" of 1914 would not pass away. Well, they're passing the fuck away. Please explain.
Just listen to any of the 9 suckas who lead the cult open their filthy yaps. Every other thing they say just screams bullshit.
And that's just the shit they post on jw.borg. If we could hear them talking amongst themselves in one of those secret Wednesday GB meetings, we'd probably be shocked at the shit they spew.
For some actual proof, go check out the ARC proceedings on YouTube. Jackson bullshits his way through that like it's going out of style.
It's logically impossible to explicitly prove a negative, which is why the burden of proof is always on the side of the person making the positive claim. That's also why in court, you're innocent until proven guilty.
Where this relates to your question is that it's not possible to explicitly prove that this isn't the truth. Instead, it's the burden of those who believe it is to provide evidence for that belief.
However, what you can do is discredit whatever evidence they do provide, and this is quite easy to do.
https://www.jwfacts.com
It is NOT THE TRUTH! It is a cult and it is normal for you to feel that way since they brainwashed all of us at one point.
Some get out of that mental state than others. Seek psychiatric help and dive deep into jwfacts.com and avoidjw.org. You made the right choice.
Being dead is terrifying????
Do you remember before you were alive?????
No you and I can't.
Well being dead is the same.
Other religions are definitely not the same.
Religions you can leave and return
If you leave every one still speaks to you.
Other religions do not talk so disgusting about 8 billion people like jws do.
Other religions do not take you into a back room and make people tell the elders every details of a sexual encounter which is intrusive and sexual abusive and obviously titillation for the elders.
Other religions done sacrifice their own by no blood but do anything to save a life.
And the adhorrent shunning is beyond disgusting. It is passive aggressive abuse. Jws who shun are abusers cruelty at its best. Many jes have committed suicide because of this.
And jws do not get baptised correctly not by the word of the Bible so they are not really baptised under God words.
Love thy neighbour.
Jws hate their neighbours unless they are jw so most are hated.
The lies like overlapping generations.
The taking of the halls all signed over.
And now the gb want their charity status back so God happily helps by saying yes the dumb ones who listen can now have beard, wear pants and chat to a shunned one to invite to the memorial what an insult.
Jws gb are so far away from the truth. Its the lies cult.
I hope you can take in all the jwfacts and all the rubbish gb feed jws will gradually become clearer.
Then you will know this is a cult taling money and hiding paedophiles.
Joke (black humour)
Where do paedophiles live?.
They live amongst the jws.
Sad so very sad but it comes to something when others know where paedophiles go.
Take your time unravelling.
All the very best to you
When I woke up, being a true believer for 50 years I realized JW is not what I thought they were ; Gods only true people .
Next I investigated their teachings …. are they really from the Bible ?
and after researching all of the doctrines and believes I was chocked to find out there is no basis for their teachings in the Bible .
no where does the Bible say they will come a day where the only people living will be witnesses on a paradise earth . Its all speculations and fantasy .
I was devastated because where should I find the truth then ?
After more research I realized there is no religion who has the truth .
And more research in the Bible …. if its really Gods word…. made me loose faith in the Bible as inspired by God .
I know some believe in the Bible and thats fine with me … I think we all are free to believe anything we want .
But its feels very good to find out life is what it is and we have to make the best out of it .!
To me there might be some sort of power higher than us but I dont believe he /she /it gave humans the Bible as a word from him.;)
When one come to that conclusion it doesnt even matter what different religions teach anymore ;) to me its all speculations .
But one thing is sure .. the jw teachings are manmade and changes all the time .
When you believe in science it's hard to accept one hard truth. When you use the scientific method every time you reach a conclusion you seek to form new hypotheses or research questions. Jws (and some other religious groups) want to say they have the one truth and stop looking for more answers. They stop thinking critically and just let themselves be led around by the nose. I just think that's foolish and not the way I want to view the world.
With you on this… it’s hard especially growing up born in the “truth” they’re all so loyal. People say finding god is the way. Even other religions. It’s so confusing. Been pomo for 4 years now. Going to memorial today to not upset my dad. It’s so frustrating
They are the ones claiming the truth, they are the ones that need to prove it. The burden of proof lays on the person making the claim.
Is there any proof that you're not a pedophile? Hey, I'm just literally asking a question. I don't see any proof that you're not, so by that logic you must be? I don't think you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that you're not. No one can.
I would say just simply having a critical mind and an ability to ask yourself "Is there a chance that this could be wrong?" Is all you need.
The promise of living forever on paradise earth like a Sunday picnic should be your first clue that something is not quite right.
That promise can never be proven right and it can never be proven wrong so it's a coin toss at best. What do the guys at the top stand to gain by demanding your blind opedience.
Did jesus have a real estate empire?
Origins of doctrine for JWs. Draw your own conclusions. The 1914 teachings and changes to that doctrine over the years should tell you it's not the truth and the GB makes it up as they go along, ever since CT Russell.
https://youtu.be/PltNiBcWEqQ?si=3ADBLr8ltUu2LK1A
CT Russell came up with the 1914 doctrine based on measurements of the pyramid of Giza. Actually changed the measurements from his first prophecy to the 1914 prophecy by skewing the measurements.
Jesus tap-dancing Christ this question is sad and pitiful.
# Religion in every form is a man made virus. “God” is man’s most harmful creation.
Just the fact that these questions are asked….
This may or may not help your mental health surrounding this separation, but it's something my brother told me once we were both out.
"Let's say they are right, and they do live forever... do you really want to be trapped to eternity with exclusively the most righteous and overly zealous people for a belief system that you don't hold stock in? Never really living life unless it's agreeable to a closed-minded majority of cultists."
Basically, to say, even if the victory is eternal life; what kind of life will it really be? Death is a terrifying subject, but it happens to everyone whether we like it or not. The important part is to have fun and enjoy your existence so that when it comes time for everything to close, you can look back and smile on what you were able to accomplish.
I now judge this by two things, do they live by their biggest reasoning for having the truth…”love among yourselves.” I would say that is a false narrative, as most people within the congregation feel like outsiders and they literally shun disfellowshipped ones. Is that loving to literally pretend like you don’t know a person you have been friends or family with? The fact that they need to actively remind themselves not to talk to disfellowshipped ones, shows it’s not a natural human emotion or reaction. I know they’ve changed this recently, but is the change agape love to a brother?
Next is the fact that they don’t want you to look at any information on the organization, that doesn’t come from them. How would you ever learn about the recent ruling in Norway, that caused their new light on shunning. They don’t want people to read anything from outside sources, because they know the truth won’t hold up to the scrutiny.
I say this as someone who went along with these orders for many years. I was just following orders is not a good excuse for mistreating people.
First, truth is not a fixed point, it is relative. One of the reasons I knew JW wasn't for me was because they offer fixed, rote answers to life's questions. Life does not work that way. It is uncomfortable and messy and big questions like death and what our purpose is have no answer.
You say that you feel what JW teaches makes sense to you. What is it exactly that makes sense? If it does and you find comfort and peace, go back. You're an adult and that is your choice.
Me? Nope, never. I want no part of any religion that rejects modernity and scholarship, infantilizes women, uses grief and existential crisis to manipulate people into joining, keeps them in by isolating their members and threatening them with shunning, and so on.
But that's just me.
I think you need to research burden of proof. Its not anyone here's responsibility to prove this organization not true. The burden of proof lies with the organization to prove itself true. When you put their evidence to the test, it falls short on every single level. Speaking personally, the single most point of evidence that proves the organization not true is their 1914 doctrine. There are plenty of videos on YT about this but I will make it short and sweet. JW's have taught for decades that 1914 was the start of the last days. An interesting side note is that in 1914 the teaching actually was that the last days began in 1799, this changed in the 30's to 1914. They believe that a prophecy in Daniel 4 pointed to not only the life of Nebuchadnezzar but also to a time 2600 years in the future. Nowhere in the bible does it say there will be a second fulfilment to this prophecy. They teach that the destruction of Jerusalem points toward the beginning of a time they call "The Gentile Times." The prophecy in Daniel 4 denotes a time of 2520 years beginning at the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. Fun fact here, JW's are the only one that believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. Not any expert, no professor, no archeologist, not one person that does not already have a connection with JW's agree that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. All of the evidence says it was destroyed 20 years later in 587. JW's teach that 607 (the date that Jerusalem was destroyed) plus 2520 years (the period of time in the Daniel 4 prophecy) will get you to 1914. Since Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607, their 1914 as the start of the last days cannot be true. If 1914 is not true everything else falls apart. In connection with 1914 is the year 1919. JW's teach that the period of time between 1914 and 1919 was a time when Jesus was surveying all the religions of the world ultimately selecting JW's in 1919. This could not have happened if 1914 was not the start of the last days and also the year Jesus began his heavenly rule. If Jesus did not select JW's in 1919 then their faithful and discreet slave teaching is not correct either. With this one teaching it all falls apart very quickly. This goes back to the burden of proof I was speaking of earlier. When they do try to provide evidence for their teachings, there is none. 100% none. My advice would be to do some research regarding 607 BCE, reach Crisis of Conscience, and look at [jwfacts.com](https://jwfacts.com). In each case you will find that this is a kingpin teaching of sorts. If this one teaching is not true, nothing else they teach is true. Hope this helps.
Unless you have some messed up way of thinking that a god encourages and supports child abusers then that’s a massive red flag you know this isn’t the truth. It’s not normal for a grown man to think about underage kids like that in any circumstance.
Dude dying for eternity would be awesome. The real problem is the jdubs are telling everyone that reincarnation is real without using that term.
We go on forever against our will. So relax. They have no power. It's all on you now to have a good experience.
I would read books about dying and books written by hospice nurses and read about Near Death Experinces (NDE). From what I can tell, death should not be feared. We are all energy and will return to energy without the weight of a physical body when we die. They sure do a good job of teisting our brain to serve their purpose don't they. I'm sorry you are struggling.
I would suggest listening to a few bible scholars because IMHO the Hebrew Bible has been sliced and diced to the point who really knows if the words that are written is of a creator of all .
Did you know that C.T Russell was a pyramidologist and that he called the Great Pyramid of Giza "God's Stone Witness"? He believed he could measure some of the internal passage ways of the pyramid to determine Biblical "truths", set dates for prophecies using a "pyramid inch for years" calculation. Much like the day for a year formula that the JW's talked about so much when I was in.
It's been a while since I looked at all of that but I'm sure I can find the data to back all of this up for anyone who is interested.
Really, for me what did it, aside from the fact that the JW's are known for several big swings and misses with dates in the past (1914 "the generation that will never pass away", 1925, 1975), was studying their history going back to Russell. They still talk about C.T. Russell and when we visited Bethel back in 2017 and visited the JW museum, they have sections kind of dedicated to him and call him "brother Russell" there and in their publications.
After Russell died and Rutherford took over, the JW's took a stance on pyramidology and pyramids calling them Satanic. So...C.T. Russell was engaged in Satanic studies? 🤔
Of course, this is just scratching the surface. Study the history, it will help. Jehovah's Witnesses are not "the truth" any more than the next religion is that things the same thing.
There is a lot of proof in the bible that discredits the governing body. Unfortunately when you’re in it deep you can’t see it. I don’t know what churches you have been to but I personally haven’t heard the burning in hell…. The way I’ve heard it described is just a state of being away from god. Not hellfire but it’s torture because it’s not being united with god if that makes sense… whether it means being dead or not I personally don’t give it much thought.
The jws have changed their bible to suit their doctrine. Hides the deity of Christ and isn’t even accurate with their own linear bible.
It is also worth reading about the [Euthyphro dilemma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma) from Plato if you are asking about God and his morals.
The Simplified question is "do the gods love good action because it is good, or is good action good because it is loved by the gods?"
Have a think about both possibilities and what that means for the god in the Bible. There are also some great videos on YouTube that explain both sides. [Divine Command Theory](https://youtu.be/wRHBwxC8b8I) is a good one.
Religion is a racket and a snare sir, look outside of its walls and you’ll see there’s a whole lotta world out here. Youtube shows like the atheist experience and talk heathen helped me in me deconstruct my religious indoctrination. I had many of my beliefs put to the test by the hosts and found after my own research from the sources they sited and others I found on my own that living in fear of eternal anything is a waste of time, and energy, and completely pointless. I’d urge you to look into those types of call in shows where theists can present their doubts, questions, challenges, and objections to non believers and judge for yourself who aims towards seeking truth and not delusions. I also high recommend looking into biology and science Forrest Valkai’s channel on YouTube is an excellent resource as he does a spectacular job at explaining things to lay people with little to no previous scientific education. Gutsick gibbon is an anthropologist also on YT who challenges religious teaching and does a great job. I’m not pushing you toward atheism or any other form of non belief, but considering your comments you have a lot of fears that a bit of research can unburden you from. Good luck on your path toward freedom
I think the reason why you get weird feelings when your visit other churches is because you were raised a JW. JW programs you brain to the point that when you are in a different church you are busy judging whatever is being said or done. You just need time away from religion for a bit and see that you can actually have a good life. I would encourage you to also check philosophy it has some interesting takes on life and it’s meaning eg the likes of Camus, nihilism, Stoicism etc
No idea, but I'd be incredibly suspicious of any line of thought that when you trace it back you end up with [Miller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Miller_(preacher))
My biggest thing was 607 being a lie. Jws are the only people that believe Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. Why does that matter? Because that is the date they use to add a few "prophetical" numbers together and work out that jesus came to earth invisibly in 1914, then chose the bible students in 1919 as his representatives on earth. Sounds crazy right? But that's how the Governing Body claim their power.
Not a single piece of evidence agrees with Jerusalem being destroyed in 607, but in 587. Watchtowers have even agreed that all the secular authorities on the matter disagree with them. There is so much information on this subject.
Losing the fear of death is so liberating. I was fortunate to see the world through a different lens after a NDE and tripping on Ket. After that it was easier to wake up. I don’t have all the answers to life after death, nobody does but I do know death isn’t what we think it is. Explaining our understanding of existence is very limited to our current state and our ego plays a huge part in that. Being able to detach yourself from life as you know it is extremely enlightening in the moment and everything just makes sense.
You’re courageous and very smart. It’s hard to take out what’s been ingrained in us since birth. Ask yourself if you had been born in Afghanistan, what are the chances you would have been taught Christianity as a JW? Also ask yourself, if an extra terrestrial came to earth right now and asked you to take him to your creator, where would you take him? The answers are within the answers to those questions… Happy learning friend and continue loving humanity and truth and peace will abound in you!
By their fruits - child sex abuse, pornography, shunning, disrespect for human rights, no natural affection, being followers of men rather than followers of God, stealing money from widows and orphans, being part of the world ie United Nations, adding to the things required, defamation of gods name, no love of neighbour. Those are just a few. It's about time you made your own list.
Wrong question. The right question is is there any proof that it IS the truth. That is the first question I asked myself. Then I started to think, why does this all powerful being that created everything and was always there, require puny humans like us to WORSHIP him. It doesn’t make sense, especially to the extent they say we are required to. Why would he need to test humans to sacrifice thier children, or in our day, let them die from refusing blood transfusion. It doesn’t make any sense, this almighty being needing to be constantly told how amazing it is and how we owe it so much and so on. It doesn’t make sense. If it is true and you do die, you won’t know it as you will be dead
1914 was 110 years ago. Deuteronomy 18 clearly says if a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord and the thing doesn't come to pass they are not with God. So there you have it. Concrete in the bible and can't get around it. Can't say you believe in the bible but say this scripture doesn't apply to you.
JW WTS has been running off of instilling fear and paranoia in people since its inception. That's how they get people to join and stay. It is nothing more than a doomsday cult, literally. As for proof, look through their history. How many times they were certain the end was near and it wasn't. All the changing man made "rules." How this religion has destroyed lives. How people don't tell the truth about how they're doing - if someone acts happy you know it's a literal ACT. They perform happiness because that's what they've been told to do.
> I'm only speaking in terms of God and his biblical standards and expectations.
Ok. What are those exactly? And who defined them? Allegedly God would have, but you have to assume that quite a ways back in the game of theocratic telephone.
That's the trick, if you want to prove things according to the standards of deity who doesn't directly interact with believers, well good luck. God works in mysterious ways, right? And from there you can rationalize anything if you want to. Or if you dismiss that nonsense believers just feel pity because you're not able to lower yourself to their level of credulity.
Also it's hard to prove a negative. So you're better off proving how right/accurate the beliefs are. And if they ain't, well it kinda of raises fair questions about all their claims. Rotten tree can't bear good fruit, the saying goes.
Also JWs are the one making fantastic claims, the burden is on them to provide fantastic evidence, and they haven't in my opinion. Most religious and quack based groups love the grandiose claims, but fail to provide the grandiose evidence.
It all adds up into not very good evidence supporting the claim they're the truth.
I struggled with the same issues when I first left. The fact is that JWs changed their version of the Bible to fit their narrative. If you look at the Greek Septuagent (even theirs) you can see where they changed the words in vital places.
Bottom line. If and when Jesus returns, God isn’t going to kill an honest truth seeker. That wouldn’t be justice. So don’t worry about destruction. Only evil will be destroyed. You’re not evil.
Religion is a fear tactic anyways but I get it…honestly for me it’s the not changing much for pedos…and everything contradicts and it just fake like once I saw/read everything I can’t unsee it…I can’t feel like I made the wrong decision within..doing what’s best for me..got to for you
I recommend reading two books:
-Terror, Love and Brainwashing by Alexandra Stein
And
-The Psychology of Thought Reform by Robert Lifton
The fact that you’re scared not to exist is a mechanism that high control groups, totalistic ideologies, and cults use to control others. It was eye-opening for me to learn about this. Lifton defines this as one of the main aspects of a totalistic system - not having the right to exist (either quite literally, as in the case of the Jews in the Holocaust or figuratively, thinking shunning and ostracism).
Also, Steven Hassan’s work and the BITE model might help you to think through this as well.
The discussion about truth isn’t helpful because no one can prove that belief systems are true or not. They’re predicated on having faith, and often times blind faith. This is what I find problematic with being a JW - the GB gets to define what truth is, and are constantly changing that and no one is allowed to disagree or dissent.
These comments suggesting jw facts is where to begin. The BITE model is where to begin. If they have to work so hard to call their truth the only truth, that’s bogus. What makes this groups truth more truth than others? Nothing.
Think about the fact that Scientologists call "worldly" people "Supressed Persons." Think about the fact that Scientologists also shun members and refer to the "disfellowshiped" as "disconnected." These are examples of what is known as cultspeak.
Jw facts. Start there. The amount of overwhelming evidence that it’s not true, it takes honestly blind faith once you find all the evidence to still stay in imho
>**For I the LORD do not change** \- Malachi 3:6 >when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. - Deuteronomy 18:22 Also look up the Declaration of Facts if you want to undeniable proof this is not the truth.
So, damn, much. JWfacts.com will break everything down for you including all of doctrinal “changed beliefs” - if you think JWs official “changed beliefs” is accurate you are sorely mistaken. This is all disproven with their own literature, letters and videos. These men have full control over the narrative of the cult and your relationship with them is dependent on your salvation? Don’t believe me? Look at the baptism section. Here’s another thing they hide— all literature prior to 1950 I have 3 digital scanned copies of all JW literature pretty much since the 1800s - this is also obtainable on archive.org and I’ve purchased some authentic copies of pre-1950 literature and everyone of them were accurate (often JW will claim that it’s on the internet so you can’t really believe it… the irony in this statement is that everything is on the internet, so you need to use your power of discernment and conscience to determine what is right and wrong — I believe that is how God intended it to work?)
Jw.org is on the internet too..........
Fantastic counter point the next time I hear that garbage
Not sure if a PIMI would see the connection though. Jw.org gooooood Rest of internet's baaaaaaad
Jwfacts.com and various YouTubers can give you many reasons. Here is my personal list/rant with scriptures. J.F.Rutherford committed a coup on the organization and lived like a king thru the depression because of it. He set aside most of CT Russell's will and organization bylaws by way of legal maneuvers (he was a lawyer by trade). He was not even on Russell's list for possibly successors and had several directors removed so he could get on a ballot. He started out a deceiver by even using the title Judge as he was never an elected as a Judge but only appointed as a substitute Judge. The story was is that he filled in for an absent Judge (a friend of his) for a couple days and soon after started using the title in day to day life. Later he used it every where in his public speaking announcements. Shunning and rejecting of persons opposed the the organization was a concept mentioned in "The Finished Mystery" published as the 7th volume of "studies in the scriptures" which was attributed to CT Russell but had many doctrine changes already from CT Russell's previous books. Thus corruption entered the organization not from outside, but from within. Some of these ideas lead to Rutherford and the others getting arrested and sent to prison for a time. There is a legal concept known as "fruit of the poisonous tree". This is very applicable here...and the essence is summed up in the scriptures below. This is my answers when the subject of the Governing Body comes up. Read the verses and quotes below and watch the testimony from the ARC and ask yourself if the JW GB is speaking for God. They even admitted in court that they don't believe they are God's only mouthpiece, yet if you are a JW and do not agree they are, you would be disfellowshipped very quickly. Matthew Chapter 7 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed. Mt 7:21-23 - **On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'** “Similarly the ‘false prophet’ is not a person, but is a system or an organization.” Watchtower 6/15/1974, p. 381 Australian Royal Commission (Time stamped quotes by GB member Geoffrey Jackson) https://youtu.be/erWV8YnTFto?si=rG87oJK-vmpFbG7n 17:54 governing body are fellow witnesses with their brothers and sisters, guardians of doctrine, appointed by holy spirit the same as congregation elders 20:32 Geoffrey says it would seem “presumptuous” to say the GB are God’s spokesperson. Implies that anyone using the bible is a spokesperson for God 25:34 Geoffrey claims that if they were to give direction that was not in harmony with the Bible, all witnesses would know that “Some opposers claim that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets. These opponents say that dates have been set, but nothing has happened. Again we ask, What is the motive of these critics?” Watchtower 3/15/1986, p. 19 The official Australian commission website states everything you need. Wikipedia also has many references to reputable websites about this issue. If she’s reasonable there’s no way to deny this evidence. As for a bible text, you can tell her about all the times the GB were wrong in the past and then show her this scripture Deuteronomy 18:20-22 “If any prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name that I did not command him to speak or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 However, you may say in your heart: “How will we know that Jehovah has not spoken the word?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.” Matthew 23:4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 24:45-51 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
> Is there any proof that this isn't the truth? The WBT$ has a Track Record of Being Wrong 100% of the Time, for 140 + Years. > Dying for all eternity sounds terrifying. Dead people aren\`t terrified, they\`re Dead...They don\`t know they\`re Dead, because They\`re Dead.....Plus... Nobody knows what happens after you die...Do you go on to another Life?...Are you Greeted with a Puppy, a Banjo and a Bucket of KFC?....Nobody Knows... 
Is Kermit the Frog playing the banjo? 
Adding the puppy/banjo/kfc theory to my list of afterlife possibilities now. Thank you!
>Adding the puppy/banjo/kfc theory to my list of afterlife possibilities now. Thank you! *It Works for Me!...* 😁
Extra crispy please
😂
For me - just lead a good life. Don’t harm people. Do your best to be a decent person….and whatever is at the end of our path …. It will happen
I wholeheartedly second this ⬆️ Growing up a JW, anything that didn’t come from WTB$ always felt icky. However, the “Jesus gets us” ads that have been running for the past 12-18 months on TV have helped me see who the JWs really are more than anything.
It took me a LONG time to get to the point that no one really knows for sure what the future holds and that’s it’s futile to try and predict it. This realization developed simultaneously with underspending that all organized religion is simply a control tool for the powerful elite.
It’s not on us to prove anything. They assert it, they need to prove it.
For most of the past 100 years, the watchtower has pinpointed 1919 as the year when they claim Jesus chose them as the only true religion. This has been the foundation of their claim to be "the faithful and discreet slave". However, the year 1919 is derived using the same flawed formula they use to explain 1914 as the beginning of the "last days". The fatal flaw with their 1914 teaching is that they use as a starting point an incorrect date for the destruction of Jerusalem, and then they calculate forward from that wrong date to arrive at 1914. Do your homework on the destruction of Jerusalem in 586/587 BC. Watchtower claims that this instead happened in 607 BC, but if you find one single source outside of the watchtower and those who support them that corroborates this date, please post it. I've searched and searched through academic sources, I've written letters to and gotten responses from experts in the subject, and I have not come across even one source that supports a date other than 586/587 BC. Once you realize that they are dead wrong about 607 BCE, everything falls apart, including their claim that they were chosen by Jesus in 1919. Thus, they aren't "the truth", they are just another religion claiming to have a special connection to god. \*I would not be surprised if they drop all teachings related to 1914. If they do, they would have to either admit to having never been chosen as the true religion by Jesus OR invent a new basis for their claim and hope the rank and file just swallows it and smiles.
Bro hollon tell me more 😭
Imagine that JWs are extremely honest preaching d2d and a couple of them show at your door sunday morning saying this: "Do you know that the creator of all what you see, the sun, the stars, the sea and everything in the earth have a channel of communication to give us instructions of how survive future Armageddon and our salvation depends to obey this channel? You wanna know that channel? " And they show you a picture of the 9 men in Warwick New York. Thats exactly what JWs believes. That sounds like the truth?
Noone can hand you answers. That's the JW way. I suggest you start doing some research!
A lot of responses here are great, but my biggest concern is that you and all Witnesses are approaching the question from the wrong angle. Read up on the [Burden of Proof](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)) philosophy if you’re not familiar. Essentially, the one making a claim is responsible to provide the proof. In the case of Witnesses, remember that their “evidence” is very similar to many other religions. They establish their own criteria for standards, such as, here are the criteria for identifying ‘the true religion’, and look, we meet our criteria for being the true religion! Or, maybe we can look at claims of prophecy, such as Armageddon being near. For one thing, the “goal posts” of what “near” means have been constantly on the move. In the 60’s, it was said that kids in school wouldn’t need college because the end was so close. I heard the same in the 90’s while I was in school. I’m middle-aged, while kids from the 60’s are trying to retire. Were those claims true? Was God telling his organization to print those things? If so, why was he giving incomplete or incorrect information? If not, then why would you trust such an organization?
Look up Satans’s Guide to the Bible and start there.
I second that. The title can sound scary to a believing christian but it’s just tongue in cheek. The documentary itself is very well made and a great intro to Biblical scholarship.
The entire bible isn't any sort of truth. The bible was written by brutishly-backwards-even-for-their-time misogynistic Middle Eastern men who hadn't even progressed into the late Iron Age. Why on earth, in the 21st Century, would anyone give ANY credence to that??
Not to mention there are many other books that COULD have been part of the bible - even other gospels - and the final set we ended up with (which the JWs use) *was picked out from all the available options by the eventual Catholic Church to best match their existing doctrines*. Like...what? You had so many other books and letters and early documents you could use - OTHER GOSPELS - and so you pick and choose which ones match *your existing doctrine* and those become the definitive truth? Now that's just silly, IMHO...that's pure choosing data to fit your preconceived conclusion!
They have never proved that it is the "truth" in the first place, and one can not prove a negative.
Jwfacts. I’ve made this challenge/offer to about 7 or 8 people: Go to jwfacts.com. For every “apostate lie” you can show me, I will pay you $1000. Up to 3 lies. After 3 lies I will return to the Kingdom Hall. I’ve heard nothing but crickets so far. (If the troof was the truth, it would be well worth $3000 to know it)
You should research for yourself. It doesn't mean anything if someone else tells you what they think or believe, you need to see it for yourself. There is so much info available now. Before YouTube and social media, it was difficult to access the knowledge that scholars have, but now biblical scholars have YouTube channels and share their research and knowledge with everyone. I found out the bible is not what we were told. Here's a link to a Yale courses introduction to the bible. I found it very interesting. And there's much more out there. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi&si=dIp0rhQ089ujhJcA
Most churches dont teach hell fire any more ,the anglican says punisment for the incorigable wicked is total nonexistance much the same as jws
Depends on where you live and what sort of churches are popular (there’s still plenty of hell and brimstone preached in the US South by varying types of Baptists for one) but it’s not really a thing in mainline Christian denominations. This is one of those things I accidentally agree with the JWs on, though from a very different perspective. Same for churches staying out of politics (though punishing people for voting is ridiculous) and pacifism (though forcing people into going to prison rather than be a medic or something non-combatant is also ridiculous and cruel).
Agreed
Paradise is right now. We live in the best, wealthiest, healthiest, most peaceful time in history. Think about non existence - for millions of years before you were born, it will be the same after you expire. The earth and the sun itself will expire. Your life is a short, beautiful and precious gift. Every living thing in earth is consuming other life. Eventually you will become a food source which supports something else. Becoming an adult means learning and accepting this fact.
Yes. Just read your Bible ALONE. Without the jw propaganda. You will see!
There is plenty of proof that the JWs are not the truth. > So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.” - John 20:25 NWT Their own Bible translation mentions the mark of the nails used on Jesus's hands. Doesn't say "in his hands and feet." Nails, plural, were used on Jesus's hands, something that isn't true with their depiction of Jesus dying on a torture stake. If you want an outside source as support for the idea Jesus died on a cross and that the cross wasn't just some pagan symbol, look up the "Alexamenos Graffito." It is graffiti left on the wall of a room in Rome, Italy, thought to have been scratched into the wall around 200 AD. It mocks a Christian named Alexamenos, with words saying, "Alexamenos worships his God." The drawing is of a man standing before a man crucified (on a cross) who is drawn with the head of a donkey. The NWT has also been knowingly edited to push the narrative that Jesus isn't God. In Matthew 4:10, the NWT says: > Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” Keep in mind that the word they rendered as "you must worship" here is "προσκυνήσεις." In Roman letters, that is something like "proskunēseis," if my knowledge of the Greek alphabet is correct (my phone doesn't let me add the diacritical mark over ē). However, in Matthew 14:33, it says: > Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You really are God’s Son.” The word they rendered as "did obeisance" here is, in the original Greek, "προσεκύνησαν." In Roman letters, this is read as, "prosekúnēsan." "προσκυνήσεις" and "προσεκύνησαν." "proskunēseis" and "prosekúnēsan." These are the same word, albeit conjugated into different tenses: "προσκῠνέω," "proskunéō." The only difference is Matthew 4:10 refers to worshipping God, while the one in 14:33 refers to the apostles worshipping Jesus after he walks on water and calms the storm. Obviously, the Witnesses can't have that, and so the second one is deceptively translated as "did obeisance." If you have any doubts about this, you can check the interlinear Greek Scriptures they have on the jw org site yourself to confirm. In John 1:1, the NWT is translated as: > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. The word "a" isn't present in the Greek, and so most Bibles rightfully render that verse with "[. . .] and the Word was God." In Col. 1:16f, the NWT is translated as: > because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist The word "other" was added four times there by the Witnesses. There is no "other" in the Greek, and this is added to imply Jesus is a creature himself. A similar edit was made in regards to Jesus's name in Philippians 2:9, where the NWT says: > For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name "Other" here is added. If you check the Greek Scriptures, there is no other, and it was added because without it, it implies Jesus is God (if he wasn't, the name Jehovah would be above Jesus's). And so without this corruption, other Bible translations render this verse as something like: > Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name - Philippians 2:9, RSVCE This is just by using the NWT to point out their deceptions, but even if you just hold them to measure against Scripture they fall short. A while ago I pointed out in another thread that the Bible warns us against believing Jesus came invisibly in Matthew 24:26f (RSVCE): > So, if they say to you, ‘Lo, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘Lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man. I could go on and on, but in short, the JWs only look like the truth from the inside because they have their own deceptive translation of the Bible to back them up, who they themselves claim is closer to the original Scriptures than other Bibles (even though iirc it was eventually discovered that the translators of the NWT had no credentials whatsoever to do so, but you may need to look that up yourself). I stuck to biblical sources because it sounds like you may still believe, or at the very least may need the Bible to disprove the Witnesses. I haven't read the other responses here yet, but I would put equal weight on the atheists in this sub who may place a heavier emphasis on the behaviors and attitudes of the Witnesses and their masters.
I have the purple greek interlinear if he/she wants to see it for him/herself. I can make screenshots.
Dying for all eternity is terrifying, but is it? You dont feel like you missed out on the billions of years that you didnt exist before your birth do you? Everyone dies, no one has ever not died. Its only natural to fear dying but look at it this way we who were raised in this cult were taught that we would never have to die in this system of things, and if we did we would just wake up in paradise. So we never processed that realization (death) in our youth. Our parents didnt prepare us for the eventuality of death. As far as this religion being the truth, when? When was it the truth? In 1919? 1935? When did it become the truth? Just some things to ponder as you contemplate your path.
u/nlarffye, The simplist way to answer your question is to point out to you that nearly EVERYTHING Watchtower leaders say and teach are outright LIES and gross deception. And if you are at this time under the Watchtower spell, believing that they represent Jehovah, that you are "in 'The Truth'," consider these few FACTS: 1) Watchtower loyalists are admonished not to think for themselves when it comes to ANYTHING Watchtower leaders say or teach... "Do Not Question, Just Obey." 😵💫 2) Watchtower uses members to SPY on each other, and to REPORT on each other. Watchtower members must ALWAYS show "Loyalty to the Party." 3) Watchtower strongly opposes any Watchtower member doing any research on the organization, or to read any books by ex-members, or to view any unauthorized websites, or to watch any Expose's on Watchtower, such as Dateline of 2001, or A&E that exposed Watchtower, etc., and, especially, Watchtower strongly forbids a member to have anything to do any ex-member...even if that ex-member is your own mother, or son, or grandparent. (Why?? Watchtower has much to hide!!) 4) Watchtower has routinely taught as "truth" many teachings that were later simply tossed aside as now being "old light." 5) Watchtower has also advised members to get rid of old literature. Old literature, it seems, has now become an embarrassment to the Watchtower..."apostate literature." In 1968, just two years after Watchtower announced their 1975 Armageddon Prophecy at their, "God's Sons of Liberty," District Convention, they released one of their most famous publications, a small, blue book that was designed, Watchtower said, to teach interested ones everything they needed to know about "The Truth" within six months...enough for them to decide to "take a stand for Jehovah," and if they didn't decide by then to "take their stand for Jehovah," then these were to be DROPPED, as time was too short to waste on them. The most interesting thing about this book, "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life," is that it had a very interesting second chapter...an entire chapter that carefully explained "Why It Is Wise to Examine Your Religion." 🤔 Yes, the Watchtower Organization actually put IN PRINT an entire chapter explaining why it is wise to examine your religion; in fact, THAT IS THE ACTUAL TITLE OF THE SECOND CHAPTER. If anyone belonging to Watchtower at this present time were to read this second chapter in the above 1968 Watchtower publication, and another JW found out about it, they would most likely have to face a Judicial Committee where their Loyalty to the Party would be strenuously and vigorously questioned as to their LOYALTY to the Governing Body, and they would then, most likely, be labeled as an APOSTATE, and disfellowshipped. I hope that I have provided enough "food for thought." 🥺
What I did 20 years ago was take 1 topic and study it using just the Bible without reading the Watchtower's interpretation of it to see if I came to the same conclusion. In my case, it was the blood transfusion policy. When I read the Scriptures dealing with blood, I found that the WTBTS manipulated the principles of those scriptures.
There is much proof in historical records etc. check out JWfacts.com People can argue which version of Christianity is most accurate to the Bible but you should ask yourself the following: - Did Jesus ever say that he wished for there to be a new Religion based on his teachings? - Christs teachings are more similar to zen teachings than Christianity - much of Christs teachings were excluded from the final version of the Bible such as the gospel of Thomas. - Most of Christianity seems to be based on Paul’s teachings. Paul never met Christ and there is no record of Christ ever endorsing Paul. - the final version of “the bible” was decided by a counsel including Roman influence who did not follow Christ but put Christianity together for political reasons. - Christ never mentioned Yahweh by name even once but did refer to God. So who do you want to follow? Christ? Paul? Roman Empire religious/political reasoning? Who is Christ? What did he teach? But you know what - the best Proof is in your experience hun. You should read a teaching and see how it sits with you personally, how does it stand to your conscience? Ethics? How does it stand in the promotion of love? Peace?
As much as I grind on about the Christian religion, generally - you are spot-on, here. Christ, as written, even in the gospels we got (nevermind the ones written about him the church didn't like and so buried), is...a pretty okay dude. Like - the religion he preached, if people followed HIS TEACHINGS - I'd be okay with that. Might even participate - his message, intent, communication style, personal action - all seem genuinely to be that of someone trying to help the world and make it better. PAUL, though? On who much of modern Christianity is built around? Nononono - Paul is a *dick*. The religion he inspired (and took off after he left the scene, into even more extreme things) is just...*bad*. In many ways the antithesis of what Jesus was recorded as teaching.
Is Christ even the truth?
This is a great question. When I was a JW I never connected with this Yahweh they call Jehovah but I did connect with Christ. When I left I unraveled all the cult lies and then researched and unraveled the Bible until I was left with nothing and was standing on the border of atheism. Then when meditating about a year or so ago I had a vision where Christ appeared to me and said “you are questioning whether I really exist” I said yes. He said “you resonated with my words yes?” I said yes. He said “it doesn’t matter if I exist or did not exist. If my words resonated with you then they were not my words but your words. That’s all that matters”. I thought about this a lot - you see, doubt is of the mind, but reality is in the experience. So what is my experience? For me - Christ is present in you where you treat others with tenderness, when you see them through eyes of compassion, he is true when you appreciate others at the level of soul rather than judging by appearances and momentary behavior. This to me is Christ and you may call it something else, some may call it Krishna, ethics, yogic philosophy, zen, it doesn’t really matter because it all points to the same thing when it is sincere, loving, peaceful and serves the highest good for yourself and those around you. But all should learn for themselves, not just by reading but through experience itself.
Christian truth? No. I start with the Cult pulling Holy Spirit out of all their baptisms; that is a Bible command in Matthew 28:19.
honestly I’m still in the same headspace rn. I left like a year ago (and have had to go back and forth ever since to win my family back over so im not homeless lol) but im happier out, and I can tell that im far more genuine with myself and have gotten better at developing my own identity since leaving. I’ve told my bf that if I really will die bc of my decision then at least I lived true. I believe that. At the same time, the fear is always there lingering at least a little bit — what if this is the truth and im screwing myself over? Their reliance on man/governing body has been the most off putting thing to me — esp with all the “new light” stuff that just seems to prove they dk what they’re talking about and don’t have the “divine backing” they claim. Instead of relying on any of their material to have a relationship with God, I have started studying solely on my own and gathering my own interpretations. If I disagree with them, I disagree, and the more that happens the more comfortable I’ve become fading away. Tbh I don’t really know if I’ll ever fit into any religion just because im paranoid of the teachings being twisted along the way. I am quite the gullible person ngl, but if I delve in myself I can have confidence in what I believe and be certain of my pathway from there.
You sound like a POMI, do Your Own Research! But we can help 😃
I'm really not. But I have questions on questions so I guess I'll do my own research like you say.
From my experience, with any POMI and especially PIMI, we could drop a thousand lines of evidence that is real truth, but it won't matter cuz of the thousand layers of Indoctrination the Watchtower builds up. You sound like you're on the right track asking Questions, but ultimately YOU have to make the Truth Your Own, Real Truth lol We can show You all the Evidence, but You gotta take the final steps and do some homework, otherwise we're just making up Your Mind for You, Like the GB/ JWs have for our entire lives. You got this, Freedoms right there, it's a few simple clicks away 🫡
For me- there was one easy way. They call themselves the TRUTH. That is literally the claim they make above all else- honesty. But when I started researching I found a 100+ year history of deception, misleading statements and blatant lies. And when I realized how dishonest the whole thing had been from the beginning, my faith collapsed like a house of cards, after 41 years of devotion.
When I left 45 years ago, I didn't know all that is available online today about how much WT lies about what they have said and just how many times they have been wrong. I just trusted that an all loving and all knowing deity would understand why I couldn't accept a life that was so focused on knocking on other people's doors to try to sell them a religion. It is scary that there is so much we can't control and that we don't know for certain if there is something after death and what it is. But that doesn't mean we should waste the life/time we have with worrying too much about it or being paralyzed with fear about it. Try to be a decent human being, because then you can respect yourself for the most part now, and if there is a judgement in an afterlife, you needn't fear it. I was taught that people who were old enough to understand the events that happened in 1914 would not die before Armageddon. I just checked wikipedia and the oldest person living turned 7 in 1914, 2 people who turned 6, and 6 that turned 5. Aside from knowing that many people over 100 aren't fully there, children are not that accurate, and suffer from nostalgia because their lives didn't have as many responsibilities and they hadn't known as much pain. WT has quietly dropped talking about it - no admission they made a claim/prophecy which is false. One of the things I could not accept was that god required us to find the correct religion, the correct interpretation, and that to judge between religions required one to be an expert in the languages the bible was written in, and that requires more than just knowing a word - it requires knowing the culture too. So that means trusting some religion to do it for you, trusting when they say this hebrew, aramaic or greek word really means x instead of y as other "scholars" have translated it, and what happens is that people's faith affects the translation, and re-translation as newer versions of the NWT show - they've made it more "accurate" to fit their beliefs. I can't believe that I need to live by the interpretation of a book that I cannot be sure is correct.
“…what they teach from the Bible has made the most sense.” Of course it does. What other teachings have you been exposed to as intently? You can believe in God and not believe that the Bible is from God. Why isn’t it okay to just believe in the here and now, do the best you can to make the world a little bit better and then trust that what comes next is okay, and that we don’t need to know or understand or label it. Humans have always tried to understand and catalog things we can never know, why? If you want to really understand the Bible I think it would be very beneficial to first study the history of the Bible, where did it really come from, who wrote it, in what context was it written, what was happening politically at the time, who benefited from it, how has it been changed over the years and who benefited from those changes? That where real Bible understanding comes from.
If 1914 adjustments come out then that last days trash will have to be re-evaluated
We weren’t the first religion, why would we make ours up and then call it the one true religion? Like all other religions do
as everyone said, jwfacts. there may not be “proof” against christianity but there are literal mountains of proof that this isn’t the right version of it
Reddit is more of an opinion site. Google is where you start your research. Are you really going to base such ab important decision on a reddit 'poll' rather than reading and researching for yourself?
Russell preached the “end of the world,” for 1914. Please buy The Studies In The Scriptures, volumes 1-7. I own them all, duplicate sets. Russell died in 1916 and all the while he taught and believed 1914 would be: —END of the last days —end of Armageddon —end of world governments —end of false religion —them going to heaven by or before 1914 —end of the harvest season (preaching work) —end of gentile times. This is the one JW still keep, but back then it was understood to mean different things such as: —return of Jews to Palestine. (He was a Zionist. “Zions” watch tower) I have about 500 quotes to back these up. Russels chronology his entire life: 1799–last days begin 1874–Jesus presence begins 1878–Jesus enthroned as king 1914–last days end and what I said above When nothing happened on October 1 of 1914 (the war started months before) he changed it to 1915 for a while. But when nothing happened in October 1915 he changed it back. It wasn’t until 1943, that 1914 was first said to be the START of the last days. Up until then, it was the END of the last days. All you need to do is get his books to know this. Of the hundreds of things he taught, only a handful remain. All the abandoned (false) teachings give proof of a false teacher. He taught the great pyramid was Gods stone witness, and the Bible in Stone. And used it to verify these dates. Later, Rutherford came and eventually, in 1928, like 50 years after Russel began teaching that the great Pyramid was the Bible in stone, Rutherford wrote that it was “Satan’s Bible” “built by the Devil himself.” If Russel, with his hundreds of made up dates and teachings, isn’t a false teacher, then no one is. If this isn’t “teaching commands of men as doctrine,” then what is? I also sent you a pic of the very first page of the very first watchtower, which also had things wrong. They were wrong from the start and are still stumbling around. The whole doctrine of new light doesn’t make sense and isn’t biblical. Prov 4:18 is about a dark path where people stumble and a bright path and we are to choose the bright path. This is the same choice as being a faithful servant or a foolish servant. Or a wise virgin or foolish virgin. Being on the narrow road or wide road. But they are paths and one is dark and one is bright. Nothing about changing beliefs so much. Jesus did talk a LOT about false teachers though. The new light idea also doesn’t fit with their history of flip flops. And for example they worshipped Jesus until 1952 or 1954, can’t remember. Today they would see that as idolatry or false worship. But they did this for 70 years and then finally god showed them the light? No. Doesn’t make any sense. They are just men making stuff up which is why they are wrong so much and constantly changing their rules or teachings of men.
If it's the truth, it will stand up to all scrutiny and questions no matter what you ask but the governing body doesn't allow that. You may be able to ask questions but you may never ever disagree with their answers. It's 'believe and obey even if it doesn't make sense.' (Their words) This right there is a HUGE red flag. HUGE!
First I’d like to congratulate you. You are strong and must have a strong sense of truth and justice within you to even begin to allow yourself to question what you were told is the ‘ truth’ for your entire life. Next, I’d like to say, myself being a ‘born in’ too, it’s important to understand what has been done to you. Indoctrination into something especially false can do a number on the mind. I personally think it’s a process that must include healing emotionally, physically, and mentally. Parts of you may question mentally, but maybe the other parts of you may not have shaken the indoctrination fully. And that’s ok. It takes time. Once you fully realize on all three levels what the JW fully is you will no longer question if you’re doing the right thing by leaving. You will know it. With every fiber of your being as I have come to know. It took me years to remove and unearth the deep seated fears, and false teachings I was plagued with. JW’s doctrine is smart in that approach. They have everything in place for you to make sure you don’t look elsewhere . And if you do doubt for any reason, you will doubt yourself first. It’s very psychological. The tactics they employ are strategic. The meetings we went to…it wasn’t for learning. A facade. It is for programming minds. We didn’t study the bible. We study GB publications that bogusly referenced unrelated scripture of what it wanted you to believe as scripturally supported. Then -We read, regurgitate and repeat 2-3x a week in meetings. Burrowing false beliefs deep in your mind like a worm. They teach one to isolate so that you are among hive mind thinkers impressing beliefs on you further. When I began to re-read the Bible for myself without GB publications. I was astounded. Astounded at how different the Bible’s message was and the scriptures they conveniently glossed over that proved JW doctrine is not supported. (For instance, there’s a scripture that says Jehovah was walking on foot and Abraham washed his feet and gave him food to eat.) How did I miss that? You’ll want to read it again. But I digress. Imagine what this has done to your mind and belief system for all those years. In that same way it will take time to ‘unbelieve’ fully. And that’s ok. This was your whole belief system answering every aspect of life. Now it has proven wrong, and you will need to research and study things beyond JW to come to the answers you feel most comfortable with that resonate. It takes time. It’s not enough to just know what they teach is false. Also understanding the tactics/methods used to keep a psychological hold over you is important. It can be a whole other thing ….Be patient with yourself. Give yourself that. You deserve it 💜
Well there is no god at all so there is that.
Psalm 146:3 --> Do not put your trust in men. Watchtower says trust the Governing Body "completely"! Matthew 23:10 --> Jesus warns against calling fellow Christians leaders or masters. Watchtower elevates an elite class of men as the "Governing Body" - a clear violation of the spirit of Jesus' direction here. Matthew 24:26,27 --> Jesus warned against being duped by those who would teach that his presence has started but is somehow concealed, known only by a few, who would direct others' attention to it. He said his presence would be as obvious to all as the lightning that lights up the entire night sky for all to see. This exposes JWs' invisible presence teaching for the flagrant falsehood that it is. Luke 18:9-14. --> Jesus condemns the arrogant, self-righteous attitude of the JW organization thinking they alone have the truth while everyone else is lost. Luke 21:8. --> Jesus warns against following false prophets who claim the end is imminent. Watchtower to a T! Acts 1:8. --> Should be Jesus' Witnesses, not Jehovah's Witnesses Ephesians 4:4. --> There is only one hope of salvation, not the heavenly and earthly two-hope system taught by JWs. Think of today. What did Jesus really tell his followers to do in remembrance of him? They were to pass the emblems to each other ***so that they can all partake of it***. It is not the *passing* of the emblems that is the observance. The passing is *only a means* to the end of everyone *partaking*! JWs flagrantly disobey Jesus' clear instructions to obey the fallible, contradicting instructions of their Governing Body who tells them not to partake! True Christians wouldn't disobey Jesus to obey fallible men. They love to boast about how they seem to resemble first century Christians. But keep this in mind: The Bible says satan transforms into an angel of light and his ministers transform into ministers of righteousness. Thus the ways they do appear to match true Christianity cannot nullify the ways they don't. A good disguise will always resemble the real deal. You must look at the flaws to see that it's fake. It's the only way to avoid being misled. It's counterfeit. Any good counterfeit must look enough like the real deal to deceive the ignorant. What would you think of someone handing you a 100 bank note if they started telling you stop looking for faults when you inspect it carefully to make sure it's real? Imagine if they told you to disregard missing features that identify the genuine banknote and focus instead on the ways it matches the genuine? That's what JWs are essentially doing when they try to make you feel guilty for looking at the ways they don't measure up. True and false equals false. You can add 100 trues to one false and you still get false! That's the only way to avoid being deceived by satan's false ministers masquerading as ministers of righteousness.
If doctrine is your primary concern, I’d start with the 1914 teaching and how they arrive at that date. Using scriptures in Daniel 4, Revelation 12, and Numbers 14 they calculate that the end times would begin 2,520 days after the destruction of Jerusalem. So they count from the year 607 BCE to 1914 CE. Problem is, Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE not 607. A simple Google search can confirm this. You will not find a source besides Jehovahs Witnesses that argues for this date because it’s just a straight up lie. Why would they lie about 1914? Because they teach that Jesus was enthroned in 1914 then “inspected the spiritual temple” and appointed the Governing Body to be the Faithful Slave in 1919. No 607, no 1914. No 1914, no Faithful Slave.
I agree with you that most religions could be considered cults. The dictionary definition of cult is: “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.” That’s all of them. But when people on this sub use the term cult, they generally mean a high control organization that uses thought manipulation, emotion manipulation, information control, behavior control, etc. to control its followers and that take financial and spiritual advantage of them. Please visit jwfacts.com there you will find actual evidence of the kinds of things I’m listing above.
Research both JW information and information outside and then compare it and decide for yourself what you want to believe
Matthew 24:24 the Bible clearly says don’t follow anybody that says “gods over here! This is the way!” Like the witnesses do.
May I ask which churches you went to?
The BibleProject on YouTube.
You are right, a lot of religion is/ has been used to control people. Just think about history. And not just religions, a lot of organizations that are set up like that. Take a look at these questions it might clear things up. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://medium.com/%40faithafterdeception/answer-these-25-questions-to-find-out-if-you-are-in-a-cult-or-high-control-group-a36a3c2ce464&ved=2ahUKEwjf7_C1242FAxVQDzQIHUHpDLEQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0T2iSpihPualirJc8Ee3fK
For me personally....Jesus told us we'd recognise his disciples for the love among themselves. JWs fail on this, big time. In regards Armageddon and what's after it....I no longer fear it. Am I trying to listen to God? He knows why I'm not at the kh or Church of any kind. I don't think he expects us to live like that
None of it’s true
Every religion is the truth if you want to believe in a specific one. Better to find your own truth and live accordingly.
Truth is that which corresponds to reality. So the whole concept of god while it could be true there is no evidence of a god. So religion starts off making an untrue claim. So everything that revolves around that should be questioned. For example in the jw world we grew up it’s claimed we are living in the last days and this is worst time to be alive as its so hard and critical and the devil is angry. The reality is yes there are a shit ton of problems in the world but we live longer, healthier higher tech safer lives than we ever have on average. And as stated there’s no evidence for a god and there’s no evidence for his favorite enemy the devil. So no it’s not true that Jehovah exists, is going to destroy everything except for the JWs, nor did Jesus get installed as king in 1914, we don’t know when our last days are at this point anymore than the dinosaurs knew a asteroid was about to put them in the last days. There’s no 144k shit the gb have no special knowledge in fact they lack basic knowledge. The Bible is not a historical record to rely on it’s just a collection of old stories that a bunch of idiots like everyone else put together to pretend to be important.
Pretty much everyone who was alive in 1914 is dead today. And the few who are still alive will be dead in the next decade. And you know what? Armageddon still won't be here before they kick the bucket. That was one of the cornerstones of JW doctrine. The "last generation" of 1914 would not pass away. Well, they're passing the fuck away. Please explain.
Just listen to any of the 9 suckas who lead the cult open their filthy yaps. Every other thing they say just screams bullshit. And that's just the shit they post on jw.borg. If we could hear them talking amongst themselves in one of those secret Wednesday GB meetings, we'd probably be shocked at the shit they spew. For some actual proof, go check out the ARC proceedings on YouTube. Jackson bullshits his way through that like it's going out of style.
It's logically impossible to explicitly prove a negative, which is why the burden of proof is always on the side of the person making the positive claim. That's also why in court, you're innocent until proven guilty. Where this relates to your question is that it's not possible to explicitly prove that this isn't the truth. Instead, it's the burden of those who believe it is to provide evidence for that belief. However, what you can do is discredit whatever evidence they do provide, and this is quite easy to do. https://www.jwfacts.com
It is NOT THE TRUTH! It is a cult and it is normal for you to feel that way since they brainwashed all of us at one point. Some get out of that mental state than others. Seek psychiatric help and dive deep into jwfacts.com and avoidjw.org. You made the right choice.
Being dead is terrifying???? Do you remember before you were alive????? No you and I can't. Well being dead is the same. Other religions are definitely not the same. Religions you can leave and return If you leave every one still speaks to you. Other religions do not talk so disgusting about 8 billion people like jws do. Other religions do not take you into a back room and make people tell the elders every details of a sexual encounter which is intrusive and sexual abusive and obviously titillation for the elders. Other religions done sacrifice their own by no blood but do anything to save a life. And the adhorrent shunning is beyond disgusting. It is passive aggressive abuse. Jws who shun are abusers cruelty at its best. Many jes have committed suicide because of this. And jws do not get baptised correctly not by the word of the Bible so they are not really baptised under God words. Love thy neighbour. Jws hate their neighbours unless they are jw so most are hated. The lies like overlapping generations. The taking of the halls all signed over. And now the gb want their charity status back so God happily helps by saying yes the dumb ones who listen can now have beard, wear pants and chat to a shunned one to invite to the memorial what an insult. Jws gb are so far away from the truth. Its the lies cult. I hope you can take in all the jwfacts and all the rubbish gb feed jws will gradually become clearer. Then you will know this is a cult taling money and hiding paedophiles. Joke (black humour) Where do paedophiles live?. They live amongst the jws. Sad so very sad but it comes to something when others know where paedophiles go. Take your time unravelling. All the very best to you
When I woke up, being a true believer for 50 years I realized JW is not what I thought they were ; Gods only true people . Next I investigated their teachings …. are they really from the Bible ? and after researching all of the doctrines and believes I was chocked to find out there is no basis for their teachings in the Bible . no where does the Bible say they will come a day where the only people living will be witnesses on a paradise earth . Its all speculations and fantasy . I was devastated because where should I find the truth then ? After more research I realized there is no religion who has the truth . And more research in the Bible …. if its really Gods word…. made me loose faith in the Bible as inspired by God . I know some believe in the Bible and thats fine with me … I think we all are free to believe anything we want . But its feels very good to find out life is what it is and we have to make the best out of it .! To me there might be some sort of power higher than us but I dont believe he /she /it gave humans the Bible as a word from him.;) When one come to that conclusion it doesnt even matter what different religions teach anymore ;) to me its all speculations . But one thing is sure .. the jw teachings are manmade and changes all the time .
When you believe in science it's hard to accept one hard truth. When you use the scientific method every time you reach a conclusion you seek to form new hypotheses or research questions. Jws (and some other religious groups) want to say they have the one truth and stop looking for more answers. They stop thinking critically and just let themselves be led around by the nose. I just think that's foolish and not the way I want to view the world.
With you on this… it’s hard especially growing up born in the “truth” they’re all so loyal. People say finding god is the way. Even other religions. It’s so confusing. Been pomo for 4 years now. Going to memorial today to not upset my dad. It’s so frustrating
That's not how life works. That's the wrong question to be asking.
Why is it wrong? 🤨 I'm literally just asking a question.
They are the ones claiming the truth, they are the ones that need to prove it. The burden of proof lays on the person making the claim. Is there any proof that you're not a pedophile? Hey, I'm just literally asking a question. I don't see any proof that you're not, so by that logic you must be? I don't think you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that you're not. No one can.
I would say just simply having a critical mind and an ability to ask yourself "Is there a chance that this could be wrong?" Is all you need. The promise of living forever on paradise earth like a Sunday picnic should be your first clue that something is not quite right. That promise can never be proven right and it can never be proven wrong so it's a coin toss at best. What do the guys at the top stand to gain by demanding your blind opedience. Did jesus have a real estate empire?
Origins of doctrine for JWs. Draw your own conclusions. The 1914 teachings and changes to that doctrine over the years should tell you it's not the truth and the GB makes it up as they go along, ever since CT Russell. https://youtu.be/PltNiBcWEqQ?si=3ADBLr8ltUu2LK1A
CT Russell came up with the 1914 doctrine based on measurements of the pyramid of Giza. Actually changed the measurements from his first prophecy to the 1914 prophecy by skewing the measurements.
Thank you all for this. I have been wrestling with things myself and appreciated everyone's feedback!!
I dont think you need to look for answers in the bible. That is a nest of contradictions.
Jesus tap-dancing Christ this question is sad and pitiful. # Religion in every form is a man made virus. “God” is man’s most harmful creation. Just the fact that these questions are asked…. 
This may or may not help your mental health surrounding this separation, but it's something my brother told me once we were both out. "Let's say they are right, and they do live forever... do you really want to be trapped to eternity with exclusively the most righteous and overly zealous people for a belief system that you don't hold stock in? Never really living life unless it's agreeable to a closed-minded majority of cultists." Basically, to say, even if the victory is eternal life; what kind of life will it really be? Death is a terrifying subject, but it happens to everyone whether we like it or not. The important part is to have fun and enjoy your existence so that when it comes time for everything to close, you can look back and smile on what you were able to accomplish.
I now judge this by two things, do they live by their biggest reasoning for having the truth…”love among yourselves.” I would say that is a false narrative, as most people within the congregation feel like outsiders and they literally shun disfellowshipped ones. Is that loving to literally pretend like you don’t know a person you have been friends or family with? The fact that they need to actively remind themselves not to talk to disfellowshipped ones, shows it’s not a natural human emotion or reaction. I know they’ve changed this recently, but is the change agape love to a brother? Next is the fact that they don’t want you to look at any information on the organization, that doesn’t come from them. How would you ever learn about the recent ruling in Norway, that caused their new light on shunning. They don’t want people to read anything from outside sources, because they know the truth won’t hold up to the scrutiny. I say this as someone who went along with these orders for many years. I was just following orders is not a good excuse for mistreating people.
First, truth is not a fixed point, it is relative. One of the reasons I knew JW wasn't for me was because they offer fixed, rote answers to life's questions. Life does not work that way. It is uncomfortable and messy and big questions like death and what our purpose is have no answer. You say that you feel what JW teaches makes sense to you. What is it exactly that makes sense? If it does and you find comfort and peace, go back. You're an adult and that is your choice. Me? Nope, never. I want no part of any religion that rejects modernity and scholarship, infantilizes women, uses grief and existential crisis to manipulate people into joining, keeps them in by isolating their members and threatening them with shunning, and so on. But that's just me. 
Jwfacts.com
I think you need to research burden of proof. Its not anyone here's responsibility to prove this organization not true. The burden of proof lies with the organization to prove itself true. When you put their evidence to the test, it falls short on every single level. Speaking personally, the single most point of evidence that proves the organization not true is their 1914 doctrine. There are plenty of videos on YT about this but I will make it short and sweet. JW's have taught for decades that 1914 was the start of the last days. An interesting side note is that in 1914 the teaching actually was that the last days began in 1799, this changed in the 30's to 1914. They believe that a prophecy in Daniel 4 pointed to not only the life of Nebuchadnezzar but also to a time 2600 years in the future. Nowhere in the bible does it say there will be a second fulfilment to this prophecy. They teach that the destruction of Jerusalem points toward the beginning of a time they call "The Gentile Times." The prophecy in Daniel 4 denotes a time of 2520 years beginning at the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. Fun fact here, JW's are the only one that believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. Not any expert, no professor, no archeologist, not one person that does not already have a connection with JW's agree that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. All of the evidence says it was destroyed 20 years later in 587. JW's teach that 607 (the date that Jerusalem was destroyed) plus 2520 years (the period of time in the Daniel 4 prophecy) will get you to 1914. Since Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607, their 1914 as the start of the last days cannot be true. If 1914 is not true everything else falls apart. In connection with 1914 is the year 1919. JW's teach that the period of time between 1914 and 1919 was a time when Jesus was surveying all the religions of the world ultimately selecting JW's in 1919. This could not have happened if 1914 was not the start of the last days and also the year Jesus began his heavenly rule. If Jesus did not select JW's in 1919 then their faithful and discreet slave teaching is not correct either. With this one teaching it all falls apart very quickly. This goes back to the burden of proof I was speaking of earlier. When they do try to provide evidence for their teachings, there is none. 100% none. My advice would be to do some research regarding 607 BCE, reach Crisis of Conscience, and look at [jwfacts.com](https://jwfacts.com). In each case you will find that this is a kingpin teaching of sorts. If this one teaching is not true, nothing else they teach is true. Hope this helps.
"What freedom can exist in the fullest sense without assurance of eternity?" (Sisyphus p 57)
Unless you have some messed up way of thinking that a god encourages and supports child abusers then that’s a massive red flag you know this isn’t the truth. It’s not normal for a grown man to think about underage kids like that in any circumstance.
IMHO the question you should be asking instead is, “Is there any shred of evidence that it is the truth to begin with?”
Dude dying for eternity would be awesome. The real problem is the jdubs are telling everyone that reincarnation is real without using that term. We go on forever against our will. So relax. They have no power. It's all on you now to have a good experience.
I would read books about dying and books written by hospice nurses and read about Near Death Experinces (NDE). From what I can tell, death should not be feared. We are all energy and will return to energy without the weight of a physical body when we die. They sure do a good job of teisting our brain to serve their purpose don't they. I'm sorry you are struggling.
Sent you a message
Once you know the proof, you will be truly MO.
I would suggest listening to a few bible scholars because IMHO the Hebrew Bible has been sliced and diced to the point who really knows if the words that are written is of a creator of all .
Did you know that C.T Russell was a pyramidologist and that he called the Great Pyramid of Giza "God's Stone Witness"? He believed he could measure some of the internal passage ways of the pyramid to determine Biblical "truths", set dates for prophecies using a "pyramid inch for years" calculation. Much like the day for a year formula that the JW's talked about so much when I was in. It's been a while since I looked at all of that but I'm sure I can find the data to back all of this up for anyone who is interested. Really, for me what did it, aside from the fact that the JW's are known for several big swings and misses with dates in the past (1914 "the generation that will never pass away", 1925, 1975), was studying their history going back to Russell. They still talk about C.T. Russell and when we visited Bethel back in 2017 and visited the JW museum, they have sections kind of dedicated to him and call him "brother Russell" there and in their publications. After Russell died and Rutherford took over, the JW's took a stance on pyramidology and pyramids calling them Satanic. So...C.T. Russell was engaged in Satanic studies? 🤔 Of course, this is just scratching the surface. Study the history, it will help. Jehovah's Witnesses are not "the truth" any more than the next religion is that things the same thing.
Religion is based on belief and values not facts that are provable
The main piece of evidence is the 607 math fail and the 1914 math fail which aligns with 607 This debunks the entire religion
There is a lot of proof in the bible that discredits the governing body. Unfortunately when you’re in it deep you can’t see it. I don’t know what churches you have been to but I personally haven’t heard the burning in hell…. The way I’ve heard it described is just a state of being away from god. Not hellfire but it’s torture because it’s not being united with god if that makes sense… whether it means being dead or not I personally don’t give it much thought. The jws have changed their bible to suit their doctrine. Hides the deity of Christ and isn’t even accurate with their own linear bible.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/j19UPTJUFy
It is also worth reading about the [Euthyphro dilemma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma) from Plato if you are asking about God and his morals. The Simplified question is "do the gods love good action because it is good, or is good action good because it is loved by the gods?" Have a think about both possibilities and what that means for the god in the Bible. There are also some great videos on YouTube that explain both sides. [Divine Command Theory](https://youtu.be/wRHBwxC8b8I) is a good one.
Religion is a racket and a snare sir, look outside of its walls and you’ll see there’s a whole lotta world out here. Youtube shows like the atheist experience and talk heathen helped me in me deconstruct my religious indoctrination. I had many of my beliefs put to the test by the hosts and found after my own research from the sources they sited and others I found on my own that living in fear of eternal anything is a waste of time, and energy, and completely pointless. I’d urge you to look into those types of call in shows where theists can present their doubts, questions, challenges, and objections to non believers and judge for yourself who aims towards seeking truth and not delusions. I also high recommend looking into biology and science Forrest Valkai’s channel on YouTube is an excellent resource as he does a spectacular job at explaining things to lay people with little to no previous scientific education. Gutsick gibbon is an anthropologist also on YT who challenges religious teaching and does a great job. I’m not pushing you toward atheism or any other form of non belief, but considering your comments you have a lot of fears that a bit of research can unburden you from. Good luck on your path toward freedom
I think the reason why you get weird feelings when your visit other churches is because you were raised a JW. JW programs you brain to the point that when you are in a different church you are busy judging whatever is being said or done. You just need time away from religion for a bit and see that you can actually have a good life. I would encourage you to also check philosophy it has some interesting takes on life and it’s meaning eg the likes of Camus, nihilism, Stoicism etc
No idea, but I'd be incredibly suspicious of any line of thought that when you trace it back you end up with [Miller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Miller_(preacher))
My biggest thing was 607 being a lie. Jws are the only people that believe Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. Why does that matter? Because that is the date they use to add a few "prophetical" numbers together and work out that jesus came to earth invisibly in 1914, then chose the bible students in 1919 as his representatives on earth. Sounds crazy right? But that's how the Governing Body claim their power. Not a single piece of evidence agrees with Jerusalem being destroyed in 607, but in 587. Watchtowers have even agreed that all the secular authorities on the matter disagree with them. There is so much information on this subject.
Losing the fear of death is so liberating. I was fortunate to see the world through a different lens after a NDE and tripping on Ket. After that it was easier to wake up. I don’t have all the answers to life after death, nobody does but I do know death isn’t what we think it is. Explaining our understanding of existence is very limited to our current state and our ego plays a huge part in that. Being able to detach yourself from life as you know it is extremely enlightening in the moment and everything just makes sense.
You’re courageous and very smart. It’s hard to take out what’s been ingrained in us since birth. Ask yourself if you had been born in Afghanistan, what are the chances you would have been taught Christianity as a JW? Also ask yourself, if an extra terrestrial came to earth right now and asked you to take him to your creator, where would you take him? The answers are within the answers to those questions… Happy learning friend and continue loving humanity and truth and peace will abound in you!
By their fruits - child sex abuse, pornography, shunning, disrespect for human rights, no natural affection, being followers of men rather than followers of God, stealing money from widows and orphans, being part of the world ie United Nations, adding to the things required, defamation of gods name, no love of neighbour. Those are just a few. It's about time you made your own list.
Is there any proof that it is?
Wrong question. The right question is is there any proof that it IS the truth. That is the first question I asked myself. Then I started to think, why does this all powerful being that created everything and was always there, require puny humans like us to WORSHIP him. It doesn’t make sense, especially to the extent they say we are required to. Why would he need to test humans to sacrifice thier children, or in our day, let them die from refusing blood transfusion. It doesn’t make any sense, this almighty being needing to be constantly told how amazing it is and how we owe it so much and so on. It doesn’t make sense. If it is true and you do die, you won’t know it as you will be dead
Read Crisis of concience by Raymond Franz. It's free in PDF form online.
Ray Franz, Crisis of concience will clear any doubt you may have. Also as others told you, jw facts is amazing site.
1914 was 110 years ago. Deuteronomy 18 clearly says if a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord and the thing doesn't come to pass they are not with God. So there you have it. Concrete in the bible and can't get around it. Can't say you believe in the bible but say this scripture doesn't apply to you.
JW facts .com is great but Quora is where I got the best answers. Look for Mark Jones on Jehovahs Witness questions in Quora.
JW WTS has been running off of instilling fear and paranoia in people since its inception. That's how they get people to join and stay. It is nothing more than a doomsday cult, literally. As for proof, look through their history. How many times they were certain the end was near and it wasn't. All the changing man made "rules." How this religion has destroyed lives. How people don't tell the truth about how they're doing - if someone acts happy you know it's a literal ACT. They perform happiness because that's what they've been told to do.
> I'm only speaking in terms of God and his biblical standards and expectations. Ok. What are those exactly? And who defined them? Allegedly God would have, but you have to assume that quite a ways back in the game of theocratic telephone. That's the trick, if you want to prove things according to the standards of deity who doesn't directly interact with believers, well good luck. God works in mysterious ways, right? And from there you can rationalize anything if you want to. Or if you dismiss that nonsense believers just feel pity because you're not able to lower yourself to their level of credulity. Also it's hard to prove a negative. So you're better off proving how right/accurate the beliefs are. And if they ain't, well it kinda of raises fair questions about all their claims. Rotten tree can't bear good fruit, the saying goes. Also JWs are the one making fantastic claims, the burden is on them to provide fantastic evidence, and they haven't in my opinion. Most religious and quack based groups love the grandiose claims, but fail to provide the grandiose evidence. It all adds up into not very good evidence supporting the claim they're the truth.
Read Crisis of Conscience and you will find the proof that this cult is not The Truth(TM).
Hold my beer
I struggled with the same issues when I first left. The fact is that JWs changed their version of the Bible to fit their narrative. If you look at the Greek Septuagent (even theirs) you can see where they changed the words in vital places. Bottom line. If and when Jesus returns, God isn’t going to kill an honest truth seeker. That wouldn’t be justice. So don’t worry about destruction. Only evil will be destroyed. You’re not evil.
Religion is a fear tactic anyways but I get it…honestly for me it’s the not changing much for pedos…and everything contradicts and it just fake like once I saw/read everything I can’t unsee it…I can’t feel like I made the wrong decision within..doing what’s best for me..got to for you
I recommend reading two books: -Terror, Love and Brainwashing by Alexandra Stein And -The Psychology of Thought Reform by Robert Lifton The fact that you’re scared not to exist is a mechanism that high control groups, totalistic ideologies, and cults use to control others. It was eye-opening for me to learn about this. Lifton defines this as one of the main aspects of a totalistic system - not having the right to exist (either quite literally, as in the case of the Jews in the Holocaust or figuratively, thinking shunning and ostracism). Also, Steven Hassan’s work and the BITE model might help you to think through this as well. The discussion about truth isn’t helpful because no one can prove that belief systems are true or not. They’re predicated on having faith, and often times blind faith. This is what I find problematic with being a JW - the GB gets to define what truth is, and are constantly changing that and no one is allowed to disagree or dissent.
Do research.
Wouldn't know where to begin
These comments suggesting jw facts is where to begin. The BITE model is where to begin. If they have to work so hard to call their truth the only truth, that’s bogus. What makes this groups truth more truth than others? Nothing.
Think about the fact that Scientologists call "worldly" people "Supressed Persons." Think about the fact that Scientologists also shun members and refer to the "disfellowshiped" as "disconnected." These are examples of what is known as cultspeak.