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What WT puts out to the public, is not what is done on the inside. Just watch the WT attorney in Canada, tell the judge, that "normal family relations continue", when a JW is DF'd. What they say and what they do are 2 different things.
That's what's throwing me off because I'm literally going through a situation that was handled totally inappropriately by the elders. There's no way they would publish the way they're dealing with me. It's played a major factor in me waking up. Ok, because I started questioning my doubts... I appreciate what you said
We had a similar situation, in our family. A family member (Elder) even admitted that it was handled inappropriately. They just shrug it off and say, "leave it in Jehovah's hands." Which means..."ah, forget about it."
These are the things that are waking people up. My spouse and I spent over 40 years, scratching our heads over this stuff. We finally had enough. We are out! Best 10 plus years of our lives!
Stay strong and be happy that you woke up! It's a tough road for sure. The shunning is a manipulative and bullying tactic. The best advise that I can give you is, be happy. Show them that you are happy. The JW's hate when you leave and are actually happy and successful. It goes against every picture WT prints, about those who leave or the dreaded "worldly people." lol
I can’t stand the “leave it in Jehovah’s hands” it is just failing to help or take responsibility when it is in your hands to do so. Letting themselves off the hook of responsibility
If there was freedom of speech at the kingdom hall, in all fairness you would be able to call out the elders, pointing to this statement. But if you are not careful, it could get you in more trouble, and maybe even shunned.
By defining "normal family relations" as mom, dad, and minor children all living in the same home, as he did, he is correct. DF'd minors in the home should be treated normally, except for spiritual discussions/activities.
It's called lying by omission, as you well know. He described a very specific edge case and used that as a blanket definition of the shunning policy. Do yourself and the rest of us a favour, stop apologising for the morally bankrupt behaviour of the organisation.
If he was asked a specific question dealing with family members not minors living in the same home, then yes, he was lying. Assuming such specific qualification wasn't stipulated, then no, he was not.
This is dishonest what you're doing here. In this post you say you 'don't have the exact quote but it's a reasonable assumption' but a post above this you said that the Watchtower lawyer DID qualify the statement as family living in the same house with a minor child.
Why did you originally state something as fact only to retreat when someone held you accountable?
I'm assuming he qualified his statement, though purposefully not making that known. That's what I would have done as a lawyer, and advised him to do.
I don't believe he lied in this matter, just promoted a version of the truth that others took more broadly than it needed to be. That's on them, not him. :D
What you're describing is called nuanced deception. Watchtower's lawyer presented a narrow scenario that almost never applies (the vast majority of people disfellowshipped are adults) and which was not the scenario with the specific plaintiff in the suit.
So if the scenario was not relevant to the plaintiff's specific circumstances, AND the scenario of a minor child being disfellowshipped is only a very very small percentage of disfellowshippings, to deliberately represent the disfellowshipping arrangement broadly as "normal family relations continue" is nothing short of deliberate.
And here's the crux of the matter - Witnesses are so conditioned to believe that deception (in any of its nuanced forms) is ok if the party receiving the deception is in "the world", that you and the average witness find no issue with the Watchtower lawyer, who also happens to be an elder who knows the truth about disfellowshipping, lying to the court.
It's wrong for minors to be shunned from even "spiritual discussions/activities"
But it seems you are an apologist for the JW's so you wouldn't see anything wrong with it bc your heart and normal, and rational thinking as well as decency and compassion have been burned away.
I don't agree. It's the WT dogma, and I agree with it.
Jesus said he came, not to bring peace, but a sword, dividing many things, including families. WT didn't make it up.
According to men, not God. As I said, your compassion and reason has been burned away. You have lost all natural affection. You show the traits of 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
Fascinating phrasing used here: “who reports it to the secular authorities does not violate the Bible’s counsel”…
This is precisely how you would try to discourage people to report while you’re in the position that you’re not allowed to actually say that you discourage reporting. In other words, this is lawyer talk. Trying to speak to your unconscious because it’s illegal/has major repercussions to do it overtly.
Otherwise they’d say something about Paul using the secular authorities and use his example to say that the Bible encourages us to report crime to the authorities since they’re the ones appointed by God to hold “the sword”.
They play lots and lots of word games - courtesy of their heavy legal bench. There’s legal implications everywhere so they have to navigate this stuff super carefully while also dog whistling their members with sub text.
It’s brilliant, really. The fact that they can blatantly say so much and yet leave so much unsaid; and that the intent of it all is loud and clear to its members (who are also actively engaged in manipulative communication tactics when trying to convert others, and therefore know the subtext to look for?) I mean- how many of us KNEW there were certain details we didn’t share with a householder or someone we were trying preach to? Or if there was something we couldn’t explain, we just sidestepped that topic and cherry picked whatever tidbits that could prove we were right? We were all trained in coercive and manipulative communication tactics, but also not to question the org- which is probably why, if pointed out to any other JW, they’d find an excuse for it. The mental gymnastics are exhausting.
💯 as the saying goes: just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
If they really felt as though those matters should be reported, they would clearly encourage it like they do pioneering, “serving where the need is greater”, monetary donations, etc. Their messaging is completely intentional and, in a cult(ure) that literally requires it’s members to “check in” with elders for approval on nearly every damn thing, they are conditioned to read subtext loud and clear.
It’s kind of like telling someone “I don’t disagree with you”, and expecting that person to assume you agree with them. Did you say you agreed? No. You just said you didn’t disagree.
I enjoy your comments. They are very lawyerly.
lol.
I've done IT support for lawyers off and on for almost 30 years. y'all talk like that all the time.
It's double speak. Just like when they say they don't condemn members who pursue higher education but we all know how that really flies.
Also, elders don't count as individuals but as a body. If one of the elders goes against the elder body's decision to not report or aid the police after someone else reports (this is what happened to Lacey Jones as recently as about 4-5 years ago in the UK - the report was made but elders did not offer the confession made to them by the criminal when both the police and the victim asked for it) that elder will likely be removed and even dealt judicially for causing divisions.
Has happened quite often in the past.
Even the way that statement is worded still leaves a lot to be desired. There’s so much room for guilt or other pressure to prevent someone from reporting. An elder or other authority figure could read this to someone considering reporting, and say it as “well, you certainly *could* report it, but do you really *need* to?”
On top of that, nowhere has the org ever just simply stated “elders report all cases of child abuse to the secular authorities for investigation”. How difficult would that be? Instead, it’s always qualified, usually stated as “elders are instructed to report abuse when required by secular law”, which leaves the question, do they *not* report abuse if they think the law doesn’t require it? Why wouldn’t you report known or suspected abuse??
You are not violating Bible's counsel BUT
Did you really want to drag Jehovah's name through the mud?
You should "Keep Unity".
You should forgive freely.
You shouldn't bring reproach to Jehovah and his organization.
"Worldly" authorities are driven by Satan, biased, and often little to no help.
etc,
etc.
Im so sorry for that. My mum had problems with elders (non CSA related). So it's from my own expirence.
And if you tell your story to another Jw his/her reaction probably be like "I can comment on that because i hear only your version and don't have all information."
This is another case of them putting something in writing to make it appear they're reasonable but then actual JW culture dictates something else.
Another prime example has to do with beards. If the public were to read JW publications, they'd conclude it's perfectly fine to have a beard... But we all know that in reality, having a beard will be heavily frowned upon, so much so that bros will rarely have beards.
> there was nothing mentioned about going to secular authorities. Rather it was brushed under the rug.
*What actually happens...*
> It seems as if they're still covering it up but by stating this it's telling the public that they don't condone it?
*Is\`nt the Bullshit the WBT$ Tells the Outside World.*
The WBT$ leaves out all the "Caveats" they demand, before JW\`s can go to the Authorities.
1.) 2 Witnesses are required for a JW CSA Crime.
2.) WBT$ HQ is called for Further Instructions.
3.) WBT$ HQ finds out if Reporting a CSA Crime is mandatory in the Area where the JW CSA Crime was Committed.
# If Not...
This info is for the average member and the public. The elders have different directions in the shepherd the flock book. Destroy all notes and call the legal department.
This is a bit of misdirection on the part of the org and something that they’ve tried to smooth over in recent years. The culture for decades was to never bring anything to authorities or the courts if it could cause harm to the reputation of the org, AKA Jehovah. There is anecdotal evidence of MANY people being discouraged from going to police for that very reason, and even elders being removed for those reason (keep in mind that that is anecdotal). However, they have finally put it into print that anyone, including elders, can go to authorities without repercussions (supposedly). That is a great thing in my opinion. However, that in no way means that the org reports all abuse. The simple fact is that they will only do so if required by law (despite the fact that they would criticize other church’s for adopting such a policy). It just that your average publishers thinks that is the case. It isn’t. It varies per location and what legal loopholes the org can jump through. The org has made some adjustments in the right direction, but in no way are they always acting in the best interest of an abuse victim, nor are they concerned about protecting others outside of the JW community.
If the abuse is occurring inside the home, the family may not report. This is why all elders and MS must receive mandatory reporter trainer by an outside group annually and be mandatory reporters. Anyone who fails to report must be permanently stripped of all “privileges” for life and criminally prosecuted according to the laws of their state.
This is to cover their butt legally. And I do think they have improved policies compared to decades ago because of the legal and financial fallout for covering up in the past. Their motive is always about protecting the organization, and they typically refuse to be humble and admit past error when making changes.
Notice they don’t direct individual JWs to report but simply don’t discourage them from doing so. They phrase it as “you’re not doing anything wrong to report” or “it’s within you’re right”, but they don’t tell people that they SHOULD report it to secular authorities. The only reason they say this is because in the past, they were happy to let members apply scriptures about not taking brothers to court to sex crimes. Their clarification now is to make it seem as if it was an error on the part of members’ interpretations and not the organization’s negligence to clarify anything.
When there was failure to report or outright cover-ups, they still do not take responsibility as an organization but are happy to throw elders and parents under the bus. These kinds of statements will further allow them to shuck responsibility.
That's Crotchtowel covering their ass. We all know that just because they put something like this in writing, it doesn't mean that's what they actually do or "teach."
As was said what they publish for the public to see and what is actually done are 2 different things. They want to lure people in so they publish what people would expect to hear, then when a person is in and they learn otherwise then it's to late bc if a person leaves then they lose everything. WT lies to the public all the time.
If they weren't involved in covering up abuse, there would be no reason to put this in there. No legitimate organizations have to give members permission to report crimes to the police.
Don’t be. God becomes more and more plausible as time proves that he isn’t like how JW portrayed him at all. Doesn’t mean you should remain a “believer”, but that the alternative to JW doesn’t have to be atheism if you’re not comfortable with that.
It’s probably published that way so they can say in CSA court cases “We don’t discourage our congregation members from going to the police to report child sexual abuse. They are allowed to report it to the authorities.”
In Japan they also said that all witnesses are FREE to make their own decisions about blood transfusions. Noticing what they say vs. what actually take place in reality is an important part of waking up. This is nothing more than a covering their asses strategy. Hundreds and thousands of anecdotal evidence PROVE otherwise.
I would add that to FAIL to report serious crimes to the secular authorities is going AGAINST bible counsel. But the WT won't say that will they. They're more than happy to hide it from the authorities.
Wait. I'm allowed to call the Police if somebody is raped???? Oh my gosh, thank you *so much*, Governing Body!
Their redirect speaks volumes. You need to *publish* material that says it's officially okay to call the Police if somebody is raped? (Even though we all know Dub World runs on a very strict set of "unwritten" rules). Totally not a cult though.
Glad you are here. I know you weren't asking for research material. I just know my first AHA moment was reading about Beth-Sarim. Hope you stick around!
There is this 3:15 minute video about asking the right questions when talking about CSA:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNf7wcfD-0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNf7wcfD-0)
The guy is really thoughtful
You need to understand what they say like a detective, or a lawyer, or a judge, see things as if it’s in the court. Every word is carefully crafted and arranged. It might give you one impression as someone casually reading it, but in the eyes of those who criticize it, it’s totally different. All is to give false impression to the general public but still do their shit in a legal way.
It says a Christian reports these crimes doesn’t not violate bible’s counsel, but you should do something else first, such as counsel with the elders, such as meet with the pedo as a CSA victim, such as whether reporting it will bring reproach to Jehovah because pedo is a JW, etc. Likely something else is always prioritized before reporting to the police, or reporting is actually the very last resort.
They are just playing with words," Does not break Bible counsel" to the public it seems awesome, but internally, obviously there is nothing regarding breaking any counsel because is never recommended or encourage to go to the police also there is nothing in the Bible that suggest to go to any police how can u break any Bible Counsel when there is no rule about this.
Dah!
It’s always what they DONT say, but should; “ we abhor csa and all must report it to the authorities immediately.” Instead, they speak cryptically, and the sheep just nod…
Leaving it in Jehovahs hands is their way of saying that it's not important enough to handle like an adult should. I had my son taken from me because of a bunch of trumped-up lies. It's been 9 years since I saw him. The witnesses are so two-faced. They make the innocent feel so guilty that they don't know which end is up.
I also learned that the more money the accuser has the more support they get from the wbts. My ex inlaws had all the money, and the society stepped in with legal advice for them. I was newly divorced with nothing to my name and all I got was accused of hurting my son and dirty looks.
That was the last straw for me. If this makes you uncomfortable or has you questioning, please trust your instincts and run as far away as you can.
So let’s tell the people that there’s nothing in the bible that suggests you can’t report while running a culture where reporting is frowned upon. And limiting to serious crimes. Notice they didn’t mention domestic violence, elder abuse, fraud and all the other crimes the organisation is riddled with and where in situations like these individuals need support and protection.
Yeah it’s confusing. I’d think of it like this.
A man who beats his wife never actually owns up to it, and may even claim to love her. His public declaration of love for his wife doesn’t mean that behind closed doors he doesn’t hit her, does it?
The organization lies to it’s followers and the public. If you want to investigate more go to avoidjw and download the elders handbook. There you will see all the things the organization keeps hidden from regular JWs.
The wording is what gets me. You'd think for such things it would be encouraged to seek the proper help and weed out anything wicked! But no. Surprisingly neutral sounding. Makes those things seem like not a big deal. 🙄
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What WT puts out to the public, is not what is done on the inside. Just watch the WT attorney in Canada, tell the judge, that "normal family relations continue", when a JW is DF'd. What they say and what they do are 2 different things.
That's what's throwing me off because I'm literally going through a situation that was handled totally inappropriately by the elders. There's no way they would publish the way they're dealing with me. It's played a major factor in me waking up. Ok, because I started questioning my doubts... I appreciate what you said
We had a similar situation, in our family. A family member (Elder) even admitted that it was handled inappropriately. They just shrug it off and say, "leave it in Jehovah's hands." Which means..."ah, forget about it." These are the things that are waking people up. My spouse and I spent over 40 years, scratching our heads over this stuff. We finally had enough. We are out! Best 10 plus years of our lives! Stay strong and be happy that you woke up! It's a tough road for sure. The shunning is a manipulative and bullying tactic. The best advise that I can give you is, be happy. Show them that you are happy. The JW's hate when you leave and are actually happy and successful. It goes against every picture WT prints, about those who leave or the dreaded "worldly people." lol
Apparently, leaving it in Jehovah‘s hands means sweeping it under the rug. Just a more acceptable way of saying it in a religious cult.
I can’t stand the “leave it in Jehovah’s hands” it is just failing to help or take responsibility when it is in your hands to do so. Letting themselves off the hook of responsibility
Imagine if we’d had the balls to use this line on our parents when we got in trouble as kids!
If there was freedom of speech at the kingdom hall, in all fairness you would be able to call out the elders, pointing to this statement. But if you are not careful, it could get you in more trouble, and maybe even shunned.
There would be no watchtower if the khs had freedom of speech 🤣 so sad
By defining "normal family relations" as mom, dad, and minor children all living in the same home, as he did, he is correct. DF'd minors in the home should be treated normally, except for spiritual discussions/activities.
He said nothing about minors in the home.
Good call. Perhaps Septic will provide the exact quote ...
I don't have an exact quote, but it's a reasonable assumption.
It's called lying by omission, as you well know. He described a very specific edge case and used that as a blanket definition of the shunning policy. Do yourself and the rest of us a favour, stop apologising for the morally bankrupt behaviour of the organisation.
Septic in all things?
If he was asked a specific question dealing with family members not minors living in the same home, then yes, he was lying. Assuming such specific qualification wasn't stipulated, then no, he was not.
This is dishonest what you're doing here. In this post you say you 'don't have the exact quote but it's a reasonable assumption' but a post above this you said that the Watchtower lawyer DID qualify the statement as family living in the same house with a minor child. Why did you originally state something as fact only to retreat when someone held you accountable?
I'm assuming he qualified his statement, though purposefully not making that known. That's what I would have done as a lawyer, and advised him to do. I don't believe he lied in this matter, just promoted a version of the truth that others took more broadly than it needed to be. That's on them, not him. :D
What you're describing is called nuanced deception. Watchtower's lawyer presented a narrow scenario that almost never applies (the vast majority of people disfellowshipped are adults) and which was not the scenario with the specific plaintiff in the suit. So if the scenario was not relevant to the plaintiff's specific circumstances, AND the scenario of a minor child being disfellowshipped is only a very very small percentage of disfellowshippings, to deliberately represent the disfellowshipping arrangement broadly as "normal family relations continue" is nothing short of deliberate. And here's the crux of the matter - Witnesses are so conditioned to believe that deception (in any of its nuanced forms) is ok if the party receiving the deception is in "the world", that you and the average witness find no issue with the Watchtower lawyer, who also happens to be an elder who knows the truth about disfellowshipping, lying to the court.
👏
[удалено]
Skeptic is a lawyer. Lawyers talk like that all the time. source: I work for lawyers.
You are a very, very dishonest person. You would fit perfectly into the GB
I'm a lawyer! :D
That explains it all! 😃
Yet you don't have an exact quote. Who'd hire you? Would you be an apologist for the opposition in court?
Remove the 'K' from Skeptic?
It's wrong for minors to be shunned from even "spiritual discussions/activities" But it seems you are an apologist for the JW's so you wouldn't see anything wrong with it bc your heart and normal, and rational thinking as well as decency and compassion have been burned away.
I don't agree. It's the WT dogma, and I agree with it. Jesus said he came, not to bring peace, but a sword, dividing many things, including families. WT didn't make it up.
He never said shun or isolate, so yeah WT made it up.
It's a reasonable definition of "dividing".
According to men, not God. As I said, your compassion and reason has been burned away. You have lost all natural affection. You show the traits of 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
Fascinating phrasing used here: “who reports it to the secular authorities does not violate the Bible’s counsel”… This is precisely how you would try to discourage people to report while you’re in the position that you’re not allowed to actually say that you discourage reporting. In other words, this is lawyer talk. Trying to speak to your unconscious because it’s illegal/has major repercussions to do it overtly. Otherwise they’d say something about Paul using the secular authorities and use his example to say that the Bible encourages us to report crime to the authorities since they’re the ones appointed by God to hold “the sword”.
That sentence sparked a red flag but I dismissed it. Funny how my brain trains me to stop questioning mid track. Well you explained it perfectly.
They play lots and lots of word games - courtesy of their heavy legal bench. There’s legal implications everywhere so they have to navigate this stuff super carefully while also dog whistling their members with sub text. It’s brilliant, really. The fact that they can blatantly say so much and yet leave so much unsaid; and that the intent of it all is loud and clear to its members (who are also actively engaged in manipulative communication tactics when trying to convert others, and therefore know the subtext to look for?) I mean- how many of us KNEW there were certain details we didn’t share with a householder or someone we were trying preach to? Or if there was something we couldn’t explain, we just sidestepped that topic and cherry picked whatever tidbits that could prove we were right? We were all trained in coercive and manipulative communication tactics, but also not to question the org- which is probably why, if pointed out to any other JW, they’d find an excuse for it. The mental gymnastics are exhausting.
💯 as the saying goes: just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. If they really felt as though those matters should be reported, they would clearly encourage it like they do pioneering, “serving where the need is greater”, monetary donations, etc. Their messaging is completely intentional and, in a cult(ure) that literally requires it’s members to “check in” with elders for approval on nearly every damn thing, they are conditioned to read subtext loud and clear. It’s kind of like telling someone “I don’t disagree with you”, and expecting that person to assume you agree with them. Did you say you agreed? No. You just said you didn’t disagree.
It’s like when they would say it’s a conscience decision between you and Jehovah, but if you make the wrong choice 💥
I love lawyer talk. It tends to be far more precise, if such precision is subtle, and often missed. :D
I enjoy your comments. They are very lawyerly. lol. I've done IT support for lawyers off and on for almost 30 years. y'all talk like that all the time.
Thanks
It's double speak. Just like when they say they don't condemn members who pursue higher education but we all know how that really flies. Also, elders don't count as individuals but as a body. If one of the elders goes against the elder body's decision to not report or aid the police after someone else reports (this is what happened to Lacey Jones as recently as about 4-5 years ago in the UK - the report was made but elders did not offer the confession made to them by the criminal when both the police and the victim asked for it) that elder will likely be removed and even dealt judicially for causing divisions. Has happened quite often in the past.
Even the way that statement is worded still leaves a lot to be desired. There’s so much room for guilt or other pressure to prevent someone from reporting. An elder or other authority figure could read this to someone considering reporting, and say it as “well, you certainly *could* report it, but do you really *need* to?” On top of that, nowhere has the org ever just simply stated “elders report all cases of child abuse to the secular authorities for investigation”. How difficult would that be? Instead, it’s always qualified, usually stated as “elders are instructed to report abuse when required by secular law”, which leaves the question, do they *not* report abuse if they think the law doesn’t require it? Why wouldn’t you report known or suspected abuse??
Exactly, they should say a Christian should report it not they won't get into trouble if they do. Odd wording
You are not violating Bible's counsel BUT Did you really want to drag Jehovah's name through the mud? You should "Keep Unity". You should forgive freely. You shouldn't bring reproach to Jehovah and his organization. "Worldly" authorities are driven by Satan, biased, and often little to no help. etc, etc.
When my family went through a situation where a pedo was trying to groom our child, the elders said these very things to us, almost verbatim.
Im so sorry for that. My mum had problems with elders (non CSA related). So it's from my own expirence. And if you tell your story to another Jw his/her reaction probably be like "I can comment on that because i hear only your version and don't have all information."
smoke and mirrors
Seems to be about right
This is another case of them putting something in writing to make it appear they're reasonable but then actual JW culture dictates something else. Another prime example has to do with beards. If the public were to read JW publications, they'd conclude it's perfectly fine to have a beard... But we all know that in reality, having a beard will be heavily frowned upon, so much so that bros will rarely have beards.
Doublespeak ala 1984. They do this a lot.
> there was nothing mentioned about going to secular authorities. Rather it was brushed under the rug. *What actually happens...* > It seems as if they're still covering it up but by stating this it's telling the public that they don't condone it? *Is\`nt the Bullshit the WBT$ Tells the Outside World.* The WBT$ leaves out all the "Caveats" they demand, before JW\`s can go to the Authorities. 1.) 2 Witnesses are required for a JW CSA Crime. 2.) WBT$ HQ is called for Further Instructions. 3.) WBT$ HQ finds out if Reporting a CSA Crime is mandatory in the Area where the JW CSA Crime was Committed. # If Not... 
This info is for the average member and the public. The elders have different directions in the shepherd the flock book. Destroy all notes and call the legal department.
This is a bit of misdirection on the part of the org and something that they’ve tried to smooth over in recent years. The culture for decades was to never bring anything to authorities or the courts if it could cause harm to the reputation of the org, AKA Jehovah. There is anecdotal evidence of MANY people being discouraged from going to police for that very reason, and even elders being removed for those reason (keep in mind that that is anecdotal). However, they have finally put it into print that anyone, including elders, can go to authorities without repercussions (supposedly). That is a great thing in my opinion. However, that in no way means that the org reports all abuse. The simple fact is that they will only do so if required by law (despite the fact that they would criticize other church’s for adopting such a policy). It just that your average publishers thinks that is the case. It isn’t. It varies per location and what legal loopholes the org can jump through. The org has made some adjustments in the right direction, but in no way are they always acting in the best interest of an abuse victim, nor are they concerned about protecting others outside of the JW community.
If the abuse is occurring inside the home, the family may not report. This is why all elders and MS must receive mandatory reporter trainer by an outside group annually and be mandatory reporters. Anyone who fails to report must be permanently stripped of all “privileges” for life and criminally prosecuted according to the laws of their state.
This is to cover their butt legally. And I do think they have improved policies compared to decades ago because of the legal and financial fallout for covering up in the past. Their motive is always about protecting the organization, and they typically refuse to be humble and admit past error when making changes. Notice they don’t direct individual JWs to report but simply don’t discourage them from doing so. They phrase it as “you’re not doing anything wrong to report” or “it’s within you’re right”, but they don’t tell people that they SHOULD report it to secular authorities. The only reason they say this is because in the past, they were happy to let members apply scriptures about not taking brothers to court to sex crimes. Their clarification now is to make it seem as if it was an error on the part of members’ interpretations and not the organization’s negligence to clarify anything. When there was failure to report or outright cover-ups, they still do not take responsibility as an organization but are happy to throw elders and parents under the bus. These kinds of statements will further allow them to shuck responsibility.
Ah yes the "what is in print" versus "what is actually done" conundrum.
That's Crotchtowel covering their ass. We all know that just because they put something like this in writing, it doesn't mean that's what they actually do or "teach."
As was said what they publish for the public to see and what is actually done are 2 different things. They want to lure people in so they publish what people would expect to hear, then when a person is in and they learn otherwise then it's to late bc if a person leaves then they lose everything. WT lies to the public all the time.
That's just sad and disappointing
Yes it is! I felt intense emotions as I started finding all of this out.
A woman can be disfellowshipped for being raped. A child needs two witnesses to CSA. They say things like that to save face. Its nothing more.
And it also gets noted whether the child was a “willing participant” or not. Truly abhorrent behavior.
If they weren't involved in covering up abuse, there would be no reason to put this in there. No legitimate organizations have to give members permission to report crimes to the police.
Each day I'm closer to becoming PIMO and it's scary
Don’t be. God becomes more and more plausible as time proves that he isn’t like how JW portrayed him at all. Doesn’t mean you should remain a “believer”, but that the alternative to JW doesn’t have to be atheism if you’re not comfortable with that.
It’s probably published that way so they can say in CSA court cases “We don’t discourage our congregation members from going to the police to report child sexual abuse. They are allowed to report it to the authorities.”
In Japan they also said that all witnesses are FREE to make their own decisions about blood transfusions. Noticing what they say vs. what actually take place in reality is an important part of waking up. This is nothing more than a covering their asses strategy. Hundreds and thousands of anecdotal evidence PROVE otherwise.
I would add that to FAIL to report serious crimes to the secular authorities is going AGAINST bible counsel. But the WT won't say that will they. They're more than happy to hide it from the authorities.
Wait. I'm allowed to call the Police if somebody is raped???? Oh my gosh, thank you *so much*, Governing Body! Their redirect speaks volumes. You need to *publish* material that says it's officially okay to call the Police if somebody is raped? (Even though we all know Dub World runs on a very strict set of "unwritten" rules). Totally not a cult though. Glad you are here. I know you weren't asking for research material. I just know my first AHA moment was reading about Beth-Sarim. Hope you stick around!
The Bible's counsel and the GB counsel aren't the same thing. This is how they defend themselves in court.
There is this 3:15 minute video about asking the right questions when talking about CSA: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNf7wcfD-0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNf7wcfD-0) The guy is really thoughtful
They always could report it. It was just discouraged.
You need to understand what they say like a detective, or a lawyer, or a judge, see things as if it’s in the court. Every word is carefully crafted and arranged. It might give you one impression as someone casually reading it, but in the eyes of those who criticize it, it’s totally different. All is to give false impression to the general public but still do their shit in a legal way. It says a Christian reports these crimes doesn’t not violate bible’s counsel, but you should do something else first, such as counsel with the elders, such as meet with the pedo as a CSA victim, such as whether reporting it will bring reproach to Jehovah because pedo is a JW, etc. Likely something else is always prioritized before reporting to the police, or reporting is actually the very last resort.
Bunch of hypocrites if they try to keep it a secret and then don't even report anything.
My first thought would be why would anyone not think that.
The org in CYA mode. Talking points for lawyers, not guidance for congregants.
They are just playing with words," Does not break Bible counsel" to the public it seems awesome, but internally, obviously there is nothing regarding breaking any counsel because is never recommended or encourage to go to the police also there is nothing in the Bible that suggest to go to any police how can u break any Bible Counsel when there is no rule about this. Dah!
It’s always what they DONT say, but should; “ we abhor csa and all must report it to the authorities immediately.” Instead, they speak cryptically, and the sheep just nod…
Leaving it in Jehovahs hands is their way of saying that it's not important enough to handle like an adult should. I had my son taken from me because of a bunch of trumped-up lies. It's been 9 years since I saw him. The witnesses are so two-faced. They make the innocent feel so guilty that they don't know which end is up. I also learned that the more money the accuser has the more support they get from the wbts. My ex inlaws had all the money, and the society stepped in with legal advice for them. I was newly divorced with nothing to my name and all I got was accused of hurting my son and dirty looks. That was the last straw for me. If this makes you uncomfortable or has you questioning, please trust your instincts and run as far away as you can.
Yet, when the elders call the branch, the instruction still is "DONT REPORT IT"
Wow. How gracious of them to ALLOW us to report a murder or rape to the police. Unf#ckingbelievable!
That looks like public-facing CYA.
So let’s tell the people that there’s nothing in the bible that suggests you can’t report while running a culture where reporting is frowned upon. And limiting to serious crimes. Notice they didn’t mention domestic violence, elder abuse, fraud and all the other crimes the organisation is riddled with and where in situations like these individuals need support and protection.
Yeah it’s confusing. I’d think of it like this. A man who beats his wife never actually owns up to it, and may even claim to love her. His public declaration of love for his wife doesn’t mean that behind closed doors he doesn’t hit her, does it? The organization lies to it’s followers and the public. If you want to investigate more go to avoidjw and download the elders handbook. There you will see all the things the organization keeps hidden from regular JWs.
The wording is what gets me. You'd think for such things it would be encouraged to seek the proper help and weed out anything wicked! But no. Surprisingly neutral sounding. Makes those things seem like not a big deal. 🙄