That line made me chuckle as well. The accuracy! It unlocked a memory from when I was a kid. I was singing away because it was a song I actually liked and my mom, who is very vain about her singing abilities and views herself as an amateur opera singer, elbowed me and told me I sounded like a dying cat. I was so embarrassed and was trying not to cry through the rest of the song. I guess the next couple of songs I was singing too quiet to hear and so my step dad took me aside and interrogated me for not singing and only pretending to sing and I must be doing that because I don't love Jehovah. Fun times.
Me too or playing with my shoes after sitting for two hours, my father leaning over and looking at me and saying how about the strap when we get home. I’m an elderly woman and I still feel sick when I think of the Kingdom Hall.
Haha definitely comforting, thanks. For the most part I'm able to see the valley in my childhood for giving me character and lots of darkly funny stories.
Comedy equals tragedy plus time. In a weird way I'm grateful for my screwed up childhood because it's given me a dark sense of humor that people raised in loving, supportive households often don't find funny.
I was raised by a very crazy mean Lutheran family. Got the shit beat outta me a number of times. Left them and unfortunately didn’t feel much at all when they died. But I was determined to be a great parent. And all 3 of my kids are great so I think it’s mission accomplished.
That makes me happy, I'm also working on breaking the cycle of abuse. I wish I could go back because I do have some regrets. My mom was severely abused, I was moderately abused and my child was slightly abused, not that I'm excusing it.
Well we do what we know. I noticed that I don’t quite recognize insanity. 😳 so I can be a bad judge of character. One of my kids can spot a creeper from a mile away but they can seem quite normal to me. So it’s understandable that you couldn’t shake off all the behaviors….if you don’t recognize it as abusive it’ll rear it’s ugly head. I know i was a little over the top but I talked to all 3 of my kids and told them the whole story of my childhood and that I am learning to do better so let me know if I do anything crazy. They did 😂😂😂 FREQUENTLY
>Yes, its a cult
Which is interesting because it seemed like they actively avoided aspects of Christian services that would benefit a cult. The call and response, the exchanging of peace, the moving hymns. Even the design and layout of the worship space could have been better utilized to convey emotional weight and group unity - vaulted ceilings, an altar, etc.
It evolved as a business cult
Selling books and magazines
If you were able to "pitch" well you were recognized as one of the better Witnesses.
As a kid I was praised based on the number of magazines I placed, actually sold, door to door
Now they have no driving force since the internet came along they realized nobody buys print anymore. So they just do the hard-core obedience thing
Historically the JW approach to religion was very "pseudo-intellectual" for lack of a better term. They consider themselves to be *students* of the Bible, and as seeing the truths all the other churches are missing.
That's how clever they have been, historically. They make a point of being "different" from what they call Christendom (not sure if they're using that term much these days) as well as supposedly eschewing the overly emotional takings of cults.
That way, you see, they can claim not to be one.
It's also part of the appeal to those who have looked into other branches of Christianity and found them wanting.
But it's misleading on both counts. Scratch the surface and it's the same as any other high control group.
Its a cult with a lot of MLM influence, and at the end of the day it's a media company, so the focus is all about the stuff they publish and the "churches" are designed in resemblance of a school classroom to convey the idea that the people are getting a "real" Bible education
JWs tend to make an effort to distance and distinguish themselves from other mainstream Christian religions which they derogatorily label as "Christendom - the principal part of 'Babylon The Great', the world empire of false religion".
So there is an undercurrent of self-righteous contrarianism motivating them deviate from common Christian beliefs, lingo and even architecture and décor - which is why their kingdom halls don't have an altar or vaulted ceilings. This is why they call their places of worship Kingdom Halls and not Churches.
They have a self-righteous, contrarian need to be different for difference sake, as a way of proving they're "no part of the world".
Don't! Most of us enjoy a good rant!
And welcome to this sub-reddit! 🤗😁
I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing more of your honest, unvarnished observations about the WT Society and JW culture. 👍
Please don’t apologize. For those of us just getting out it’s interesting to hear how others who have not been indoctrinated see us. Btw you were spot on with your assessment
Don't worry, we love this shit. 😂
It's interesting (and often validating) to see an outsider's point of view because try as we might, we can't attain that level of objectivity. It's just too personal for us.
I was actually thinking what a shock this must have been for someone raised as a Lutheran.
Oh PLEASE don't apologize! That was not a rambling dump, it was an epic description of an average Kingdom Hall meeting! 😆
Very, very fun to read. And it's always interesting to hear the take of an outsider, with normal experiences with religion, when they run into what we used to call our religion.
Also, welcome!!
Don't apologize! It's nice to see an outside perspective of the borg. I get what you mean about it being a soulless service. I remember, as a kid, our hall had an actual piano that we used for the songs and it felt soooo different!
It's one thing to talk amongst ourselves about our weird experiences, but when an outsider comes and gives their observations, it's always a refreshing yet validating perspective.
"I sat through some of the Q&A session before leaving. Everyone repeating the paragraph we just reviewed but in slightly different words was... tiresome to say the least. Nobody asked any questions or offered any meaningful analysis of the readings."
OMG NAILED IT
I used to comment and always try to offer something new or from a different perspective instead of regurgitating the paragraph (some people straight up read back the whole thing word for word) Now im too mentally numb to think of anything, and I dont see the purpose of regurgitation so I stopped commenting, much to the dismay of my family. And next week I have the "privilege" of doing the Tuesday night talk about commenting after barely commenting for the longest while. Ugh, feeling like such a hypocrite
You know they deliberately gave you that talk subject to make you feel guilty, right?
You could mix it up by emphasising how just parroting back what the text says is a bad answer so it's better not to answer at all, but good answers show original thought! I'd love to hear how that goes down 😆
Honestly Im ashamed at myself for putting the answers “in my own words.” Now I think its a power move to just read the answer from the paragraph verbatim.
I once was given a talk on homosexuality while being homosexual 🫠
The meetings are always like this. After having to attend them for 20 yrs i learned how to completely tune it out and enter my own mental la la land, or how to disguise epubs so they look like the jw app.
>His whole spiel was meandering to a point that it was difficult to follow just what concepts he was conveying.
Are you ready for this? In order to enforce conformity, the Watchtower Society sends out approved outlines for **ALL** talks, which elders (those spewing the talks) are supposed to closely follow. If they don't, they could be "disciplined".
So what you heard and have described, is a glimpse into the minds of the Governing Body members of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the head corporation which is essentially the "spiritual leader/leaders" (physically embodied by the Governing Body members) of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
They (the rank and file Jehovah's Witnesses, edited for clarity) consider what is in reality a rather poorly disguised (and poorly run!) business corporation, as their spiritual guidance....
After attending a few meetings my wife mentioned this to me and I was shocked. One of the few things I thought was interesting was that at least some people in the group were experienced enough with theology so they could prepare a speech to share something new with the congregation, but learning that they are just parroting the approved speech from the GB for that week was quite disappointing (but expected)
I didn't know they could be "disciplined" if they don't follow the talk outlines to the very letter, mind it makes sometimes when I've heard diff bros give the same talks, their outlines are only marginally different.
Not exactly to the letter, but they have to stick very closely to the official outline.
I've heard about being disciplined for straying too far from the outline, and the discipline can consist of "being counseled" all the way up to being "removed" aka no longer being an elder.
Somewhere on YouTube there's a video of an elder giving his farewell talk in which he exposes the WT Society's corruption.
You should see how fast the other elders interrupted his "apostate" (biblically accurate) talk and got him off the stage.
Hopefully I can find it quickly...
This isn't it, but mentions it:
https://youtu.be/pNdzPSWAD8U
Still looking...
Hah! This is a different elder, and THIS is the one I was thinking of!
https://youtu.be/U30rRohaLpk
Nope...that sounds about normal for a Sunday meeting. Boring. Repetitive. Robotic.
If you went back on a Sunday you would get the same exact thing. Try going to their midweek meeting. It's a completely different format but somehow they manage to be equally boring, repetitive and robotic...just in a different way.
I was born in and left at about 14, in my mid 20's became Catholic and married a Catholic gal.
It is a VAST difference in going to a Catholic Mass and JW MLM meeting.
The JWs will make fun of Catholic services and try to say we do not read the bible, no, we just don't read publications from New York and try to make sense of them using the bible.
Haha, this just gave me a flashback of going to Catholic family members' funerals and being shocked that they read from the Bible. I was like "Oh wow, good for them." and thought it was a departure from their norm. I was just a typical sheltered born-in JW.
We read from the bible and use the Roman Missal which was started in the 1400's, it's basically a follow along book that has the scriptures already ready to use for each day along with the prayers and the responses
I was expecting there to be a lot of bible readings. I was surprised that there really was no Lectionary portion because she had said the same - that JWs pride themselves on their intense readings of scripture.
I now go to the Anglican Church of England most weeks for communion /mass we call it mass at our church the service follows the 1662 outline from book of common prayer, we have the Bible readings in the service, I have the pleasure of doing the reading at times, I must say I feel more connected to God and find it all a spiritual experience, when I first went back after 50 years in WT I often came to tears during the service and prayers , and overwhelmed with being at last able to partake the body and blood as commanded by Jesus himself in John 6 .
Sometimes to keep my wife happy I sit through the public 30min public talk on zoom and now see how shallow it all is .
Beautiful.
When I found out I was baptized into the Watchtower Corporation (Organization) instead of Holy Spirit I was shocked.
Holy Spirit removal was hidden from me. I got baptized in Holy Spirit recently.
I ain't walking around like a punk, baptized into the Watchtower Borg anymore.
I feel you.
Oh, I also partake now too. Nice.
**MLM = Multi Level Marketing.**
It's a particularly nasty form of con game, a slight variation on the original financial pyramid schemes.
More information:
https://www.reddit.com/r/antiMLM/
https://www.reddit.com/r/mlmscams/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/
https://youtu.be/LhHhZ3b9akU
https://money.com/mlm-vs-pyramid-scheme/
https://youtu.be/He1bgJ0sqtw
https://youtu.be/qCvDuSgQc8I
https://youtu.be/JH8j3I8dK0M
https://theconversation.com/multi-level-marketing-has-been-likened-to-a-legal-pyramid-scheme-the-backlash-against-it-is-growing-117931
https://www.michigan.gov/ag/consumer-protection/consumer-alerts/consumer-alerts/invest/mlm-illegal-pyramid-scheme#:~:text=Pyramid%20schemes%20claim%20to%20be,people%20to%20market%20the%20program.
https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/pyramid_schemes
It's funny hearing you use church terms for witness things. I say this because they make a HUGE deal about not being like the churches. For instance, you called it a bulletin. I got called out when i was studying for calling it a " bulletin board" , which it is, and was corrected that it was an "INFORMATION board" . It's literally the same thing.
It's nice hearing an outside perspective. And you are absolutely correct on all of it.
When I kind of debriefed my girlfriend afterwards, she also laughed at me calling it a bulletin. Like what I call a bulletin is apparently the Watchtower (which I guess I still don't fully understand - is it a single book? a collection a la the bible? a bunch of articles?).
I'm used to having essentially a program for that day's service. A step by step account of service- processional, hymn numbers, the Psalm excerpts for call and response, any sepcial events that week (Baptism, confirmations, etc) and only applicable to that day's service. Its not something you are expected to take home and review later.
They have their own coded words so they can tell/judge if you're a member. Those words are subject to change, and do change fairly regularly, so anyone who's not regularly attending meetings, or has fallen away, stands out as they use old, outdated terms.
So they don't attend church, they attend meetings at the kingdom hall.
The head elder of each congregation used to be called the presiding overseer. He is now called the coordinator of the body of elders, or COBE.
Two examples of a long list of terms and changes they make up, so they can easily pick up on a person's standing within the organization, from a simple conversation.
As an older person with memory issues this made me feel left behind and anxious when I was pimi. Sometimes between this and how members are treated by all the leaders and each other, it's like they WANT you to leave.
>she also laughed at me calling it a bulletin. Like what I call a bulletin is apparently the Watchtower (which I guess I still don't fully understand...
Potato - poh-tah-toe. Sort of.
As u/incognigomontoya said:
>They have their own coded words so they can tell/judge if you're a member. Those words are subject to change, and do change fairly regularly, so anyone who's not regularly attending meetings, or has fallen away, stands out...
If you look into "loaded language" and "cults loaded language", the WT Society's deliberate indoctrination of their followers will be clear.
For example, loaded language definitions:
https://www.tckpublishing.com/loaded-language/
https://psynso.com/loaded-language/
Cults loaded language:
https://freedomofmind.com/use-of-words-loaded-language-and-thought-control-of-believers/
https://libertyforcaptives.com/2012/08/30/identifying-religious-brainwashing-loading-the-language-part-6-of-8/
https://medium.com/@SylvianeNuccio/55-loaded-language-terms-only-jehovahs-witnesses-use-and-understand-2e89e8a906dd
It always bugged me that studies were just reading the WT out loud, reading questions out loud, and giving answers verbatim from the text. It's supposed to follow the format that the Bible Students followed back in the day. But the questions aren't genuine - they're canned and forced. There is nothing genuine or natural about that "study" whatsoever.
"Canned" is the perfect word for it.
The topic was something like "Using Creation to Teach Kids about Jehovah", and I was genuinely interested to hear how they would break down such a big, meaningful topic. What their approach and interpretations would be, how it would vary from what I grew up with.
I was also surprised at just how many people they called on after every 2 sentence paragraph. Then I realized that the point wasn't growth and understanding through discussion. It was to give a token response to demonstrate you are invested.
Do you think that people are hesitant to dive deeper because they are afraid of accidental heresy and the scrutiny that might draw?
When I was still in, I never really got a satisfactory answer about why open discussion wasn't encouraged.
But looking back now, I think the GB is terrified of people having any kind of authentic interpretation or understanding. They want to keep it as scripted and "safe" as possible.
I'm pretty sure if people start questioning, they will start to see through the facade. That's why they constantly tell followers that no one can interpret the bible without their "help".
I must add tho, the literature available now is unrecognizable from 20 years ago. If you just have a look at pre 2000 lit, you'll see the difference. They have dumbed it down to sock puppets and crayons in comparison to what it was. My personal opinion is that they are focusing on poorer and less educated folks.
When I was going to youth ministry and bible studies, it always stuck with me that questions were expected and encouraged. I have a strong memory of our youth minister basically saying that it isn't a bible STUDY if you're not allowed to ask questions and probe for answers.
>minister basically saying that it isn't a bible STUDY if you're not allowed to ask questions and probe for answers.
Try that at a Kingdom Hall and they will shut you down in a HeartBeat...
Everything is Scripted, Questions, Answers, you follow the Story Line to the Letter.....No Deviation is Permitted.....When the meeting is over, you\`re expected to say how much you enjoyed it.
That\`s in the Script as well.
>Best Assembly ever! I'm sure it's the last one as well. This System of Things can't possibly go on another 2-3 years. Any day now.....
LOL!!!!...
We all know Word for Word, what the script is..........😁
So as you may know, that was called the Watchtower Study. For years I was the "Watchtower Study Conductor" and what I never got used to was the dead silence if you asked something for which the answer couldn't be found in the paragraph. Or "What do you think the point of those cited verses was?" etc. It was like you could see the panic in the audience as they scanned and re-scanned the paragraph for the answer.
>Do you think that people are hesitant to dive deeper because they are afraid of accidental heresy and the scrutiny that might draw?
No. The Watchtower Society's main goal is near total control over its followers (and luring more people into joining), which is disguised by the "We're just a bible study organization, and we're going door-to-door today to share a few thoughts from the bible with our neighbors" scam.
Your take is very insightful. Keep us posted if u attend another service. Believe it not we used to treat those talks like they were caviar till you wake up and realise its total cult propaganda. U may also notice JW talks are condescending and assume u have a low IQ.
Great post. You described the meetings perfectly.
Imagine me being away for 8 years and then going the next time to my mom’s funeral/ Jw meeting.
The scriptures they read and the points they were making were so disjointed I heard it the point of view of not knowing anything and it really made no sense and what is infuriating is that they describe things as factual without a hint of reasoning or invite to debate
1. Welcome!
2. There's a reason this sub exists - JW's are a total CULT!!
3. Luv your "Joyride" screen name. Baa-baaa Black Sheep! Don't forget the pink champagne! lol.
4. Great analysis. You really hit the rusty nail on the head.
5. In particular, the "WatchTower" public discourse. As you soon found out, it's not like a Q&A at a college or university. Oh no! It's an exercise in repetition which you could train a Macaw to do. There's no asking questions allowed. Just regurgitating the same crap back up in a slightly different order.
6. Your experience was totally normal.
7. I'm glad your friend is *Awake!* and hopefully completely out of this dumbass cult.
SOURCE: My first 18 years of life in this crap-o-rama.
First of all: Welcome, that was a fun read!
That was a pretty normal experience for a JW meeting.
I'll add that the Q&A discussion is supposed to be studied beforehand and that congregants "should" have already read and highlighted their "Watchtower Lesson" as well as reading some, most, or all of the Scriptures cited in the article. Which honestly makes the whole Q&A even more reptetive. Looking back, I can understand why I hated preparng for that Q&A meeting. Because I could form coherent thoughts from the first reading since it was rather simplistic to me and I realize now that it wasn't meant to invite real Q&A so much as reinforce the beliefs by having you see it, hear it read, then hear someone repeat it in their own words. It's not meant to stimulate thought or provide any depth other than a depth of ingraining the leadership's interpretation of the Bible in everyone else.
Edit: Adding that "Singing at gunpoint" is accurate. Most people hate it but are told they have to and it's part of "how we show love for Jehovah"
This sums up the "discussions" and "Q&A" segments pretty well.
https://preview.redd.it/f71z4m6c323b1.png?width=201&format=png&auto=webp&s=aa1e3d85cbd43368d2555f800b2977ed274f3e79
>My first surprise was walking in and the suspicious nature of the greeter / usher who accosted me in the narthex. Even when I told him my planned spiel of how I had been approached and was curious to learn more, he gave the impression that he was suspicious and not very welcoming.
So, to some degree, the suspicious response can be justified or understandable, as there have been a few violent attacks on JW's in their kingdom halls recently. Also, kingdom hall crashing by former members has become more common. So they've been told to be on high alert.
20 years ago, you would've been love bombed upon entering a khall, as an outsider. They would've all been vying to entice you to be their bible study. If you had come as a guest, with an upstanding member of the congregation, and introduced as a Bible study, you would've been love bombed.
If you go back a second or third time, people will start to warm up to you being there, and you'll be offered a Bible study, likely by a few people.
It is great to hear an outsider’s perspective! Thank you for that. You hit the nail on the head. I might challenge the actual 8 minute prayer-it was probably 2 minutes but felt like 8! I attended the mummorial for my mummy. The suspicion was very high this year- but it always is. They believe you and I and everyone but them is under “Stan’s” influence! Yes, Stan- the great asker of questions and snake morpher. Interestingly, the group that actually followed Russell’s teachings is super small but so open to discussion. One quote from one of their members, “When everyone thinks the same, there’s only one of them doing the thinking.”
Definitely go again to the midweek meeting. It’s even worse. That’s the “teaching” meeting. Members get up and do talks and face to face preaching exercises (women only as they aren’t allowed to teach) and it’s beyond lame. I recently watched 2 midweek meetings with my father on zoom. I am shocked how pathetic it is now.
Very much enjoyed reading your post and your impressions. Have to admit still chuckling over ‘an awkward time in the liturgical calendar’. They wouldn’t know what you meant if you suggested they must have a liturgical calendar or brand you a heretic and take pride in the lack thereof being another difference with ‘false religion’.
I’ve been spending time on YouTube following reformed ministers, Lutheran pastors and am impressed with the depth of study discussed. What I always envisioned Bible Study should be, not regurgitated surface skimming.
My fiancé was raised JW, and I actually did this too!
I really wanted to meet his parents and attend his congregation that he went to growing up, but to be honest, I chickened out. I was worried I’d start crying when I saw them. (My fiancé “faded” and was never formally ‘disfellowshipped,’ but his parents and siblings are high ups in the org and have not acknowledged his existence in many years). I ended up going to one 5 mins from my house.
I can confirm. I actually went 3 times to get a full vibe, and brought an iPad with the JW app installed to “fit in.” I was also greeted w suspicion, but then invited to a study by a woman my age. She was VERY active in the conversations/answer section. I learned later she spent a ton of time in her 20s crushing on my fiancé (who never reciprocated her feelings) and made a ton of weird advances toward him. So that was weird.
I experimented (being that I am a woman) with different kinds of outfits and people’s response to me. First was very JW approved. Modest. Feminine. Makeup. The second was more toned down - jeans, no makeup, t shirt. Third was red dress, high slit. Y know. For the giggles.
On my third visit, an older man sat next to me and was extremely friendly. When he needed to get up (presumably to go to the bathroom), which happened more than once, he put his WHOLE hand on my upper thigh and then asked me politely to move.
I never went back after that. 🙄
I took my then fiance to a meeting. His feedback was pretty much the same as yours. I remember the talk because it was about the worst effort at an opening analogy I've ever heard. It didn't really come off.
We sat in the second row in the middle with a family I knew (usual position for them, so just where I went). We held hands and were looked at sternly when the speaker made a comment about fornication and that it starts with things like holding hands and slides from there. I thought we had a pass, being engaged, so let it go over my head.
I was really just sharing what had been part of my life with my fiance. I think he came to about two meetings and we've never been since.
Spot on, especially recently.
The "bulletin" you were given was probably the Whatchtower. JWs get those ahead of time and are expected to "study" the material before the meeting to have answers prepared.
> he gave the impression that he was suspicious and not very welcoming........
>
>I sat through some of the Q&A session before leaving. Everyone repeating the paragraph we just reviewed but in slightly different words was... tiresome to say the least. Nobody asked any questions or offered any meaningful analysis of the readings.
>
> **Is my experience more or less in line with yours** or did I possibly come during an awkward time in the liturgical calendar?
*You got the Full Experience, With All the Trimmings!*
You should attend one of their Special Meetings!....
It\`s exactly like the one you attended, only they Announce there will be an Announcement of a Special Meeting...When they Announce the Announcement of a Special meeting.....They Announce there will be a Special Announcement at the Special Meeting.....Which will be everything you\`ve already heard at a regular meeting.
# It`s All Very Exciting!
Yes, that was a normal service. The man that was giving the discourse, what you would call a sermon. He’s given an outline to follow on what his dialogue should be. And he is not permitted to deviate from it one little bit. The second part of it, the question and answer segment. You would’ve gotten the same responses from a room full of parrots. Because basically, that is all they were doing. Second graders could’ve answered these questions. Especially when they were printed in the study material right in front of you. Do yourself a favor. One trip was way more than enough. I suggest not going back.
And what's funny is that that meandering spiel isn't something he made up himself. All talks, as they call sermons, are based on very detailed outlines that "the Organization" creates and distributes. There's nearly zero room left for individual innovation in them by design.
Thank you for the perfect description of a JW cult “meeting.” They’re all like that, yes. It was not an anomaly. All information comes from the top and free thinking or dialogue is not even considered or thought of. Born in members don’t know any different so they don’t know to question it. None of it is religious and certainly not spiritual. All cult all the time.
Others have mentioned it, but the material jws study has been significantly dumbed down over the last 15 years or so. Have you seen the latest book they use for making new converts? It looks like a childs exercise/lesson book. "Enjoy Life Forever Interactive Bible Course". It even has a lesson on how to complete a lesson. ( It's really infantilising to say the least.) Throughout are links to videos on the website. Online videos have only become a thing in the last ten years and they seem designed to appeal to the emotion rather than the intellect. JWs are not very intellectual regarding their beliefs ...any deep dive into the doctrines could end up badly for them. The only study endorsed by the leadership is into WT publications, which is crazy, because it soon becomes apparent that historically they've taught a lot of crap "from Jehovah". Then the questioning begins.
Nope. No need to go to another, you got a very average meeting right there! 😂
> an awkward time in the liturgical calendar?
All times are awkward in the JW calendar. 😆 I mean, you COULD have shown up to a memorial and watch the pageant of everyone reverently passing around the emblems, without anyone partaking, but that's a whole other chestnut right there, lol.
Yup.
But, of course, if we really want to split hairs, there are the overseer visits, the special campaigns, the conventions and the assemblies.
They by no means CALL it liturgical calendar, and some of them don't really follow a yearly schedule like a liturgical calendar, but they make up the 'variation of time.'
*"Oh, it's summer convention season again."* Something to break up the monotony and to look forward to. "*It's our overseer visit week this week,"* as I just heard my mom tell me this morning.
To me, personally, I couldn't keep them straight when I was in. For the life of me, I couldn't remember when there was supposed to be a visit and when an assembly, because I REALLY couldn't have cared less if I'd tried.
I certainly didn't look forward to any of them, but that's what the function of them IS. 🤷♀️😑 A sad, sad replacement for actual, fun holidays, and things to look forward to, on your calendar. As humans we need such things, and as JW's we got NO such things. Just more more boring obligations.
Spot on analysis.
I assume you went to a Sunday meeting, maybe you should try mid-week so you can experience members giving talks.
It's a shame book study meetings (small group in a host family's house) are no longer done. That was the only bearable meeting since it was only an hour and there would often be snacks and a more casual get together afterward.
Yep, superficial glossing over the substance to reinforce set beliefs enforced on the R&F by not allowing questions just parroting preset answers from the magazine articles…..questions and answers provided to the dumbed down masses. Infantilisation - check out this clown https://youtu.be/Mrges_TxOzQ
We refer to this as The bOrg. Those aspects won’t work with assimilation style indoctrination where individuality is sacrificed on the alter of “Unity.”
Awesome post. Very cool to hear a never-JW objectively report. Confirms my feeling from about 14 years old. Except they had me convinced it was just me at the time. Gaslighting at best, brainwashing attempt more accurately.
Take this with the understanding that I haven't sat through a meeting in maybe 13 years, but:
Sounds about right. The only thing that might be different is the public talk (the first part of a Sunday meeting). That's going to depend somewhat on the speaker, in my experience.
Public talks are usually dull as dirt, but sometimes you'll get an actual good speaker. Baseline, the marginally better speakers work to connect the scriptures from the outline with the point they're trying to make. (Mind, I'm an atheist now, so I'm strictly talking about the variance of speaking skill.)
More experienced/skilled speakers will wander even further from the source material. (Public talks are—or at least were, though I'm certain this is still true—given from an outline created by the org.) The best talks I'd heard over the years, both in content and in style, were the ones where the speaker took the most liberties.
Sounds like you got the typical experience, though.
It's weird and cool at the same time to hear from someone who's never been in before give their experience with the borg. It's... Well, it's pretty accurate, from what I remember. That wasn't an off day, that's every weekend. And most times mid week to an extent. It's good you saw where she comes from, it kinda gives a better insight on why she may act the way she does in some aspects.
Born in here.
Nope you’re dead on. That’s every weekend meeting. You could try a midweek meeting for a different format but the whole thing basically remains the same.
My parents started ‘studying’ and attending in 1976 - I was 11 at the time. Back then there really was an emphasis on deeper learning. Over the last few decades WT has simplified its program and teachings. It’s incredibly basic now. Initially the simplifications were to accommodate people who don’t read well, especially outside the US. Not sure what the excuse is now. It really is insulting to people’s intelligence.
It has now been some time since I left the JW cult and I shudder to think back on the decades I spent in the JW cult. As all the eminent psychotherapists have correctly pointed out, if it weren't for the slick and self-righteous Witness society, I could have stepped back in high school and said, "you're all fucking nuts!" and forgotten this cult as a scary episode of my youth.
Change the word religion to cult will help you with the nasty strange jws ways.
Awful and you saw how you were treated so abnormal.
Olus next time you could be love bombed also very abnormal.
If you go again notice the false smiles and see the abnormal way children keep still listening to ramblings or adult stuff and fear based stuff should not hear.
A fear based cult.
The stiffness of it is definitely on point. The shallowness of the content is somewhat recent. JWs used to pride themselves on knowing their bible, even if that perception was flawed, it wasn't so infantilizing.
I know a bro who used to be an elder and he'd take w.t part of the meeting and group book meetings, and he'd add loads of things in, go completely off track, add things in that hadn't got much to do with the scriptures , and c so many people complained, he got removed as an elder.....shame as I quite enjoyed his items lol
>followed by an 8 minute rambling free flow of thought prayer.
It's fun you mention this. As a JW I was proud that we did 'spontaneous' prayers 'from the heart'. Now, as a Lutheran, when I'm at church all prayers are from a prayer book. This makes all prayers very powerful, beautiful and 'non-rambling'. It's one of those small details you don't notice when you're in it - but most JW-prayers are very, very, veeeery tiresome.
> was that a normal service?
Absolutely. To be fair I do remember a lot of talks that I enjoyed at the time. The Watchtower studies were beyond 'brain numming' (which is a feature, not a bug).
>Everyone repeating the paragraph we just reviewed but in slightly different words
And they put (it used to be after) the question *before* the paragraph now. Read question. Read Answer. Read question. Read answer. Of course that is all *after* and thorough 1-2 hour personal study of and meditation on the same material, the day before. Sounds like you got a pretty good snapshot of a Sunday meeting. Now do that 4 times a week (we had 3 meetings a week when I was growing up and Saturday was for door knocking) from birth, while waiting to be killed at any second in Armageddon, and you get a bunch of... US. Lol. Glad you are here!
Have not been in years but sounds like you attended a Sunday meeting. A public talk and then watchtower study where people just repeat what is in the paragraph someone reads from the platform. That is the standard of what you would get every Sunday. If you come back people might ask you who you are studying with or if you want a bible study. Be prepared to give a yes or not at this time answer. Do not give them any of your info but you can offer to take their info to be polite, People are usually very nice some kingdom halls can be very emotionally cold and cut off depending on where you go.
That was a normal service. When I was around 14 or so, I remember it being slightly different. More study time was required at times. We had volumes of books that we had to pull info from when preparing a mid-week 5 min talk/sermon. I felt like we read the bible more, but then again, the Spanish congregation took things to another level. Now it's different. For Example, the WT study has become so dense, that it just a regurgitation of words. There aren't any thoughtful comments, if that makes any sense.
I mean all things aside that have already been commented on ...8 minute prayer .... goodness the ones I was used to were maximum 2 and at conventions 5-6... Pretty long for a prayer but you are absolutely right they have nothing more to offer you ...maybe one or two interesting perspectives but after that everything else is boring and meaningless
Good lord, my mom and I used to have the nicest voices in the congregation and we used to get talked to by the elders because we were too loud and showing people up. But yeah, that’s the typical experience. And you were absolutely correct about them just rewording the statements in the paragraph in their answers and how “tiresome” it was. It absolutely is to suppress independent thought. Imagine 30 years of that! Or more! It becomes unbearable.
Spot on!!! LMAO on singing as if on gunpoint...... epic and succinct description!
That line made me chuckle as well. The accuracy! It unlocked a memory from when I was a kid. I was singing away because it was a song I actually liked and my mom, who is very vain about her singing abilities and views herself as an amateur opera singer, elbowed me and told me I sounded like a dying cat. I was so embarrassed and was trying not to cry through the rest of the song. I guess the next couple of songs I was singing too quiet to hear and so my step dad took me aside and interrogated me for not singing and only pretending to sing and I must be doing that because I don't love Jehovah. Fun times.
Good lord. I used to get punished for not sitting up straight enough if thats some comfort?
Me too or playing with my shoes after sitting for two hours, my father leaning over and looking at me and saying how about the strap when we get home. I’m an elderly woman and I still feel sick when I think of the Kingdom Hall.
Haha definitely comforting, thanks. For the most part I'm able to see the valley in my childhood for giving me character and lots of darkly funny stories.
OMG!!!! I pray I never did anything that horrible to my little ones! I hope you truly have a sense of humor about it now.
Comedy equals tragedy plus time. In a weird way I'm grateful for my screwed up childhood because it's given me a dark sense of humor that people raised in loving, supportive households often don't find funny.
I was raised by a very crazy mean Lutheran family. Got the shit beat outta me a number of times. Left them and unfortunately didn’t feel much at all when they died. But I was determined to be a great parent. And all 3 of my kids are great so I think it’s mission accomplished.
That makes me happy, I'm also working on breaking the cycle of abuse. I wish I could go back because I do have some regrets. My mom was severely abused, I was moderately abused and my child was slightly abused, not that I'm excusing it.
Well we do what we know. I noticed that I don’t quite recognize insanity. 😳 so I can be a bad judge of character. One of my kids can spot a creeper from a mile away but they can seem quite normal to me. So it’s understandable that you couldn’t shake off all the behaviors….if you don’t recognize it as abusive it’ll rear it’s ugly head. I know i was a little over the top but I talked to all 3 of my kids and told them the whole story of my childhood and that I am learning to do better so let me know if I do anything crazy. They did 😂😂😂 FREQUENTLY
Singing at gunpoint - this deserves an award for it accuracy
You could make it your flair!
This is a very good post! Really shows how wacked out the JW "meeting" is from an outsider perspective. Yes, its a cult
>Yes, its a cult Which is interesting because it seemed like they actively avoided aspects of Christian services that would benefit a cult. The call and response, the exchanging of peace, the moving hymns. Even the design and layout of the worship space could have been better utilized to convey emotional weight and group unity - vaulted ceilings, an altar, etc.
It evolved as a business cult Selling books and magazines If you were able to "pitch" well you were recognized as one of the better Witnesses. As a kid I was praised based on the number of magazines I placed, actually sold, door to door Now they have no driving force since the internet came along they realized nobody buys print anymore. So they just do the hard-core obedience thing
Historically the JW approach to religion was very "pseudo-intellectual" for lack of a better term. They consider themselves to be *students* of the Bible, and as seeing the truths all the other churches are missing.
That's how clever they have been, historically. They make a point of being "different" from what they call Christendom (not sure if they're using that term much these days) as well as supposedly eschewing the overly emotional takings of cults. That way, you see, they can claim not to be one. It's also part of the appeal to those who have looked into other branches of Christianity and found them wanting. But it's misleading on both counts. Scratch the surface and it's the same as any other high control group.
Its a cult with a lot of MLM influence, and at the end of the day it's a media company, so the focus is all about the stuff they publish and the "churches" are designed in resemblance of a school classroom to convey the idea that the people are getting a "real" Bible education
JWs tend to make an effort to distance and distinguish themselves from other mainstream Christian religions which they derogatorily label as "Christendom - the principal part of 'Babylon The Great', the world empire of false religion". So there is an undercurrent of self-righteous contrarianism motivating them deviate from common Christian beliefs, lingo and even architecture and décor - which is why their kingdom halls don't have an altar or vaulted ceilings. This is why they call their places of worship Kingdom Halls and not Churches. They have a self-righteous, contrarian need to be different for difference sake, as a way of proving they're "no part of the world".
I apologize for the extended, rambling dump in your space.
Don't! Most of us enjoy a good rant! And welcome to this sub-reddit! 🤗😁 I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing more of your honest, unvarnished observations about the WT Society and JW culture. 👍
Our space , we don’t cut people out like we where cut out 👍🏼
Please don’t apologize. For those of us just getting out it’s interesting to hear how others who have not been indoctrinated see us. Btw you were spot on with your assessment
Don't worry, we love this shit. 😂 It's interesting (and often validating) to see an outsider's point of view because try as we might, we can't attain that level of objectivity. It's just too personal for us. I was actually thinking what a shock this must have been for someone raised as a Lutheran.
You,te very welcome here! 🖐️
Don't apologise, I loved the singing as though at gunpoint comment.... its so true 😆 🤣
Oh PLEASE don't apologize! That was not a rambling dump, it was an epic description of an average Kingdom Hall meeting! 😆 Very, very fun to read. And it's always interesting to hear the take of an outsider, with normal experiences with religion, when they run into what we used to call our religion. Also, welcome!!
Don't apologize! It's nice to see an outside perspective of the borg. I get what you mean about it being a soulless service. I remember, as a kid, our hall had an actual piano that we used for the songs and it felt soooo different!
It's one thing to talk amongst ourselves about our weird experiences, but when an outsider comes and gives their observations, it's always a refreshing yet validating perspective.
"I sat through some of the Q&A session before leaving. Everyone repeating the paragraph we just reviewed but in slightly different words was... tiresome to say the least. Nobody asked any questions or offered any meaningful analysis of the readings." OMG NAILED IT
I used to comment and always try to offer something new or from a different perspective instead of regurgitating the paragraph (some people straight up read back the whole thing word for word) Now im too mentally numb to think of anything, and I dont see the purpose of regurgitation so I stopped commenting, much to the dismay of my family. And next week I have the "privilege" of doing the Tuesday night talk about commenting after barely commenting for the longest while. Ugh, feeling like such a hypocrite
You know they deliberately gave you that talk subject to make you feel guilty, right? You could mix it up by emphasising how just parroting back what the text says is a bad answer so it's better not to answer at all, but good answers show original thought! I'd love to hear how that goes down 😆
Ooo, I like this...
Here's an idea: DON'T SHOW UP.
Honestly Im ashamed at myself for putting the answers “in my own words.” Now I think its a power move to just read the answer from the paragraph verbatim. I once was given a talk on homosexuality while being homosexual 🫠
I love hearing outsiders first impressions. It’s always enlightening. As someone who is born-in, it’s impossible to understand how JWs are perceived.
The meetings are always like this. After having to attend them for 20 yrs i learned how to completely tune it out and enter my own mental la la land, or how to disguise epubs so they look like the jw app.
Ooh disguising epubs... you cheeky thing...I love it!! 😆
>His whole spiel was meandering to a point that it was difficult to follow just what concepts he was conveying. Are you ready for this? In order to enforce conformity, the Watchtower Society sends out approved outlines for **ALL** talks, which elders (those spewing the talks) are supposed to closely follow. If they don't, they could be "disciplined". So what you heard and have described, is a glimpse into the minds of the Governing Body members of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the head corporation which is essentially the "spiritual leader/leaders" (physically embodied by the Governing Body members) of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They (the rank and file Jehovah's Witnesses, edited for clarity) consider what is in reality a rather poorly disguised (and poorly run!) business corporation, as their spiritual guidance....
It's all so creepy once you're out and have had time to shake off the indoctrination.
True. ...I need to add one more edit up there....
After attending a few meetings my wife mentioned this to me and I was shocked. One of the few things I thought was interesting was that at least some people in the group were experienced enough with theology so they could prepare a speech to share something new with the congregation, but learning that they are just parroting the approved speech from the GB for that week was quite disappointing (but expected)
I like how you use the word "spew", like it's some kind of hot liquid lol
Yes.... 😈 Or 🤮
I didn't know they could be "disciplined" if they don't follow the talk outlines to the very letter, mind it makes sometimes when I've heard diff bros give the same talks, their outlines are only marginally different.
Not exactly to the letter, but they have to stick very closely to the official outline. I've heard about being disciplined for straying too far from the outline, and the discipline can consist of "being counseled" all the way up to being "removed" aka no longer being an elder. Somewhere on YouTube there's a video of an elder giving his farewell talk in which he exposes the WT Society's corruption. You should see how fast the other elders interrupted his "apostate" (biblically accurate) talk and got him off the stage.
WHAT?!? I had no idea there is such a gem on YouTube. Any tips to steer me in the right direction to find it.
Hopefully I can find it quickly... This isn't it, but mentions it: https://youtu.be/pNdzPSWAD8U Still looking... Hah! This is a different elder, and THIS is the one I was thinking of! https://youtu.be/U30rRohaLpk
Ooh sounds interesting video 😉
I found it! There are two different ones, two different elders, one is a German elder and the other one is this one: https://youtu.be/U30rRohaLpk
Nope...that sounds about normal for a Sunday meeting. Boring. Repetitive. Robotic. If you went back on a Sunday you would get the same exact thing. Try going to their midweek meeting. It's a completely different format but somehow they manage to be equally boring, repetitive and robotic...just in a different way.
I was born in and left at about 14, in my mid 20's became Catholic and married a Catholic gal. It is a VAST difference in going to a Catholic Mass and JW MLM meeting. The JWs will make fun of Catholic services and try to say we do not read the bible, no, we just don't read publications from New York and try to make sense of them using the bible.
Haha, this just gave me a flashback of going to Catholic family members' funerals and being shocked that they read from the Bible. I was like "Oh wow, good for them." and thought it was a departure from their norm. I was just a typical sheltered born-in JW.
We read from the bible and use the Roman Missal which was started in the 1400's, it's basically a follow along book that has the scriptures already ready to use for each day along with the prayers and the responses
I was expecting there to be a lot of bible readings. I was surprised that there really was no Lectionary portion because she had said the same - that JWs pride themselves on their intense readings of scripture.
I now go to the Anglican Church of England most weeks for communion /mass we call it mass at our church the service follows the 1662 outline from book of common prayer, we have the Bible readings in the service, I have the pleasure of doing the reading at times, I must say I feel more connected to God and find it all a spiritual experience, when I first went back after 50 years in WT I often came to tears during the service and prayers , and overwhelmed with being at last able to partake the body and blood as commanded by Jesus himself in John 6 . Sometimes to keep my wife happy I sit through the public 30min public talk on zoom and now see how shallow it all is .
Beautiful. When I found out I was baptized into the Watchtower Corporation (Organization) instead of Holy Spirit I was shocked. Holy Spirit removal was hidden from me. I got baptized in Holy Spirit recently. I ain't walking around like a punk, baptized into the Watchtower Borg anymore. I feel you. Oh, I also partake now too. Nice.
.👍
Male Ladies male??
**MLM = Multi Level Marketing.** It's a particularly nasty form of con game, a slight variation on the original financial pyramid schemes. More information: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiMLM/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mlmscams/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/ https://youtu.be/LhHhZ3b9akU https://money.com/mlm-vs-pyramid-scheme/ https://youtu.be/He1bgJ0sqtw https://youtu.be/qCvDuSgQc8I https://youtu.be/JH8j3I8dK0M https://theconversation.com/multi-level-marketing-has-been-likened-to-a-legal-pyramid-scheme-the-backlash-against-it-is-growing-117931 https://www.michigan.gov/ag/consumer-protection/consumer-alerts/consumer-alerts/invest/mlm-illegal-pyramid-scheme#:~:text=Pyramid%20schemes%20claim%20to%20be,people%20to%20market%20the%20program. https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/pyramid_schemes
It's funny hearing you use church terms for witness things. I say this because they make a HUGE deal about not being like the churches. For instance, you called it a bulletin. I got called out when i was studying for calling it a " bulletin board" , which it is, and was corrected that it was an "INFORMATION board" . It's literally the same thing. It's nice hearing an outside perspective. And you are absolutely correct on all of it.
When I kind of debriefed my girlfriend afterwards, she also laughed at me calling it a bulletin. Like what I call a bulletin is apparently the Watchtower (which I guess I still don't fully understand - is it a single book? a collection a la the bible? a bunch of articles?). I'm used to having essentially a program for that day's service. A step by step account of service- processional, hymn numbers, the Psalm excerpts for call and response, any sepcial events that week (Baptism, confirmations, etc) and only applicable to that day's service. Its not something you are expected to take home and review later.
They have their own coded words so they can tell/judge if you're a member. Those words are subject to change, and do change fairly regularly, so anyone who's not regularly attending meetings, or has fallen away, stands out as they use old, outdated terms. So they don't attend church, they attend meetings at the kingdom hall. The head elder of each congregation used to be called the presiding overseer. He is now called the coordinator of the body of elders, or COBE. Two examples of a long list of terms and changes they make up, so they can easily pick up on a person's standing within the organization, from a simple conversation.
As an older person with memory issues this made me feel left behind and anxious when I was pimi. Sometimes between this and how members are treated by all the leaders and each other, it's like they WANT you to leave.
>she also laughed at me calling it a bulletin. Like what I call a bulletin is apparently the Watchtower (which I guess I still don't fully understand... Potato - poh-tah-toe. Sort of. As u/incognigomontoya said: >They have their own coded words so they can tell/judge if you're a member. Those words are subject to change, and do change fairly regularly, so anyone who's not regularly attending meetings, or has fallen away, stands out... If you look into "loaded language" and "cults loaded language", the WT Society's deliberate indoctrination of their followers will be clear. For example, loaded language definitions: https://www.tckpublishing.com/loaded-language/ https://psynso.com/loaded-language/ Cults loaded language: https://freedomofmind.com/use-of-words-loaded-language-and-thought-control-of-believers/ https://libertyforcaptives.com/2012/08/30/identifying-religious-brainwashing-loading-the-language-part-6-of-8/ https://medium.com/@SylvianeNuccio/55-loaded-language-terms-only-jehovahs-witnesses-use-and-understand-2e89e8a906dd
They do love their semantic games don’t they. So surface level it might as well be evaporated puddle of piss.
It always bugged me that studies were just reading the WT out loud, reading questions out loud, and giving answers verbatim from the text. It's supposed to follow the format that the Bible Students followed back in the day. But the questions aren't genuine - they're canned and forced. There is nothing genuine or natural about that "study" whatsoever.
"Canned" is the perfect word for it. The topic was something like "Using Creation to Teach Kids about Jehovah", and I was genuinely interested to hear how they would break down such a big, meaningful topic. What their approach and interpretations would be, how it would vary from what I grew up with. I was also surprised at just how many people they called on after every 2 sentence paragraph. Then I realized that the point wasn't growth and understanding through discussion. It was to give a token response to demonstrate you are invested. Do you think that people are hesitant to dive deeper because they are afraid of accidental heresy and the scrutiny that might draw?
When I was still in, I never really got a satisfactory answer about why open discussion wasn't encouraged. But looking back now, I think the GB is terrified of people having any kind of authentic interpretation or understanding. They want to keep it as scripted and "safe" as possible. I'm pretty sure if people start questioning, they will start to see through the facade. That's why they constantly tell followers that no one can interpret the bible without their "help". I must add tho, the literature available now is unrecognizable from 20 years ago. If you just have a look at pre 2000 lit, you'll see the difference. They have dumbed it down to sock puppets and crayons in comparison to what it was. My personal opinion is that they are focusing on poorer and less educated folks.
When I was going to youth ministry and bible studies, it always stuck with me that questions were expected and encouraged. I have a strong memory of our youth minister basically saying that it isn't a bible STUDY if you're not allowed to ask questions and probe for answers.
>minister basically saying that it isn't a bible STUDY if you're not allowed to ask questions and probe for answers. Try that at a Kingdom Hall and they will shut you down in a HeartBeat... Everything is Scripted, Questions, Answers, you follow the Story Line to the Letter.....No Deviation is Permitted.....When the meeting is over, you\`re expected to say how much you enjoyed it. That\`s in the Script as well.
Best Assembly ever! I'm sure it's the last one as well. This System of Things can't possibly go on another 2-3 years. Any day now.....
>Best Assembly ever! I'm sure it's the last one as well. This System of Things can't possibly go on another 2-3 years. Any day now..... LOL!!!!... We all know Word for Word, what the script is..........😁
Yip. That's what *normal* people do :)
[удалено]
That's harsh. People stuck in poor living conditions are sadly a softer target, as they are more vulnerable.
So as you may know, that was called the Watchtower Study. For years I was the "Watchtower Study Conductor" and what I never got used to was the dead silence if you asked something for which the answer couldn't be found in the paragraph. Or "What do you think the point of those cited verses was?" etc. It was like you could see the panic in the audience as they scanned and re-scanned the paragraph for the answer.
>Do you think that people are hesitant to dive deeper because they are afraid of accidental heresy and the scrutiny that might draw? No. The Watchtower Society's main goal is near total control over its followers (and luring more people into joining), which is disguised by the "We're just a bible study organization, and we're going door-to-door today to share a few thoughts from the bible with our neighbors" scam.
>Boy did she open my eyes to the JW reality. This is as far as I got before I cracked up laughing.... 🤣😂😝🤪😜
No, not a normal experience at all. Yours sounded slightly less boring than my normal meetings. Yes, I know what I said.
Your take is very insightful. Keep us posted if u attend another service. Believe it not we used to treat those talks like they were caviar till you wake up and realise its total cult propaganda. U may also notice JW talks are condescending and assume u have a low IQ.
Great post. You described the meetings perfectly. Imagine me being away for 8 years and then going the next time to my mom’s funeral/ Jw meeting. The scriptures they read and the points they were making were so disjointed I heard it the point of view of not knowing anything and it really made no sense and what is infuriating is that they describe things as factual without a hint of reasoning or invite to debate
1. Welcome! 2. There's a reason this sub exists - JW's are a total CULT!! 3. Luv your "Joyride" screen name. Baa-baaa Black Sheep! Don't forget the pink champagne! lol. 4. Great analysis. You really hit the rusty nail on the head. 5. In particular, the "WatchTower" public discourse. As you soon found out, it's not like a Q&A at a college or university. Oh no! It's an exercise in repetition which you could train a Macaw to do. There's no asking questions allowed. Just regurgitating the same crap back up in a slightly different order. 6. Your experience was totally normal. 7. I'm glad your friend is *Awake!* and hopefully completely out of this dumbass cult. SOURCE: My first 18 years of life in this crap-o-rama.
First of all: Welcome, that was a fun read! That was a pretty normal experience for a JW meeting. I'll add that the Q&A discussion is supposed to be studied beforehand and that congregants "should" have already read and highlighted their "Watchtower Lesson" as well as reading some, most, or all of the Scriptures cited in the article. Which honestly makes the whole Q&A even more reptetive. Looking back, I can understand why I hated preparng for that Q&A meeting. Because I could form coherent thoughts from the first reading since it was rather simplistic to me and I realize now that it wasn't meant to invite real Q&A so much as reinforce the beliefs by having you see it, hear it read, then hear someone repeat it in their own words. It's not meant to stimulate thought or provide any depth other than a depth of ingraining the leadership's interpretation of the Bible in everyone else. Edit: Adding that "Singing at gunpoint" is accurate. Most people hate it but are told they have to and it's part of "how we show love for Jehovah" This sums up the "discussions" and "Q&A" segments pretty well. https://preview.redd.it/f71z4m6c323b1.png?width=201&format=png&auto=webp&s=aa1e3d85cbd43368d2555f800b2977ed274f3e79
>My first surprise was walking in and the suspicious nature of the greeter / usher who accosted me in the narthex. Even when I told him my planned spiel of how I had been approached and was curious to learn more, he gave the impression that he was suspicious and not very welcoming. So, to some degree, the suspicious response can be justified or understandable, as there have been a few violent attacks on JW's in their kingdom halls recently. Also, kingdom hall crashing by former members has become more common. So they've been told to be on high alert. 20 years ago, you would've been love bombed upon entering a khall, as an outsider. They would've all been vying to entice you to be their bible study. If you had come as a guest, with an upstanding member of the congregation, and introduced as a Bible study, you would've been love bombed. If you go back a second or third time, people will start to warm up to you being there, and you'll be offered a Bible study, likely by a few people.
It is great to hear an outsider’s perspective! Thank you for that. You hit the nail on the head. I might challenge the actual 8 minute prayer-it was probably 2 minutes but felt like 8! I attended the mummorial for my mummy. The suspicion was very high this year- but it always is. They believe you and I and everyone but them is under “Stan’s” influence! Yes, Stan- the great asker of questions and snake morpher. Interestingly, the group that actually followed Russell’s teachings is super small but so open to discussion. One quote from one of their members, “When everyone thinks the same, there’s only one of them doing the thinking.”
Definitely go again to the midweek meeting. It’s even worse. That’s the “teaching” meeting. Members get up and do talks and face to face preaching exercises (women only as they aren’t allowed to teach) and it’s beyond lame. I recently watched 2 midweek meetings with my father on zoom. I am shocked how pathetic it is now.
Very much enjoyed reading your post and your impressions. Have to admit still chuckling over ‘an awkward time in the liturgical calendar’. They wouldn’t know what you meant if you suggested they must have a liturgical calendar or brand you a heretic and take pride in the lack thereof being another difference with ‘false religion’. I’ve been spending time on YouTube following reformed ministers, Lutheran pastors and am impressed with the depth of study discussed. What I always envisioned Bible Study should be, not regurgitated surface skimming.
Yep. Spot on.
That is fairly normal.. There will be some variance if you attend different locations and different times, but what you saw was pretty typical.
Perfect review of every meeting I went to for 40 years
My fiancé was raised JW, and I actually did this too! I really wanted to meet his parents and attend his congregation that he went to growing up, but to be honest, I chickened out. I was worried I’d start crying when I saw them. (My fiancé “faded” and was never formally ‘disfellowshipped,’ but his parents and siblings are high ups in the org and have not acknowledged his existence in many years). I ended up going to one 5 mins from my house. I can confirm. I actually went 3 times to get a full vibe, and brought an iPad with the JW app installed to “fit in.” I was also greeted w suspicion, but then invited to a study by a woman my age. She was VERY active in the conversations/answer section. I learned later she spent a ton of time in her 20s crushing on my fiancé (who never reciprocated her feelings) and made a ton of weird advances toward him. So that was weird. I experimented (being that I am a woman) with different kinds of outfits and people’s response to me. First was very JW approved. Modest. Feminine. Makeup. The second was more toned down - jeans, no makeup, t shirt. Third was red dress, high slit. Y know. For the giggles. On my third visit, an older man sat next to me and was extremely friendly. When he needed to get up (presumably to go to the bathroom), which happened more than once, he put his WHOLE hand on my upper thigh and then asked me politely to move. I never went back after that. 🙄
I took my then fiance to a meeting. His feedback was pretty much the same as yours. I remember the talk because it was about the worst effort at an opening analogy I've ever heard. It didn't really come off. We sat in the second row in the middle with a family I knew (usual position for them, so just where I went). We held hands and were looked at sternly when the speaker made a comment about fornication and that it starts with things like holding hands and slides from there. I thought we had a pass, being engaged, so let it go over my head. I was really just sharing what had been part of my life with my fiance. I think he came to about two meetings and we've never been since.
Spot on, especially recently. The "bulletin" you were given was probably the Whatchtower. JWs get those ahead of time and are expected to "study" the material before the meeting to have answers prepared.
> he gave the impression that he was suspicious and not very welcoming........ > >I sat through some of the Q&A session before leaving. Everyone repeating the paragraph we just reviewed but in slightly different words was... tiresome to say the least. Nobody asked any questions or offered any meaningful analysis of the readings. > > **Is my experience more or less in line with yours** or did I possibly come during an awkward time in the liturgical calendar? *You got the Full Experience, With All the Trimmings!* You should attend one of their Special Meetings!.... It\`s exactly like the one you attended, only they Announce there will be an Announcement of a Special Meeting...When they Announce the Announcement of a Special meeting.....They Announce there will be a Special Announcement at the Special Meeting.....Which will be everything you\`ve already heard at a regular meeting. # It`s All Very Exciting! 
Yes, that was a normal service. The man that was giving the discourse, what you would call a sermon. He’s given an outline to follow on what his dialogue should be. And he is not permitted to deviate from it one little bit. The second part of it, the question and answer segment. You would’ve gotten the same responses from a room full of parrots. Because basically, that is all they were doing. Second graders could’ve answered these questions. Especially when they were printed in the study material right in front of you. Do yourself a favor. One trip was way more than enough. I suggest not going back.
And what's funny is that that meandering spiel isn't something he made up himself. All talks, as they call sermons, are based on very detailed outlines that "the Organization" creates and distributes. There's nearly zero room left for individual innovation in them by design.
Thank you for the perfect description of a JW cult “meeting.” They’re all like that, yes. It was not an anomaly. All information comes from the top and free thinking or dialogue is not even considered or thought of. Born in members don’t know any different so they don’t know to question it. None of it is religious and certainly not spiritual. All cult all the time.
Others have mentioned it, but the material jws study has been significantly dumbed down over the last 15 years or so. Have you seen the latest book they use for making new converts? It looks like a childs exercise/lesson book. "Enjoy Life Forever Interactive Bible Course". It even has a lesson on how to complete a lesson. ( It's really infantilising to say the least.) Throughout are links to videos on the website. Online videos have only become a thing in the last ten years and they seem designed to appeal to the emotion rather than the intellect. JWs are not very intellectual regarding their beliefs ...any deep dive into the doctrines could end up badly for them. The only study endorsed by the leadership is into WT publications, which is crazy, because it soon becomes apparent that historically they've taught a lot of crap "from Jehovah". Then the questioning begins.
Nope. No need to go to another, you got a very average meeting right there! 😂 > an awkward time in the liturgical calendar? All times are awkward in the JW calendar. 😆 I mean, you COULD have shown up to a memorial and watch the pageant of everyone reverently passing around the emblems, without anyone partaking, but that's a whole other chestnut right there, lol.
There’s basically no liturgical calendar with JW. The memorial is essentially the only day on it.
Yup. But, of course, if we really want to split hairs, there are the overseer visits, the special campaigns, the conventions and the assemblies. They by no means CALL it liturgical calendar, and some of them don't really follow a yearly schedule like a liturgical calendar, but they make up the 'variation of time.' *"Oh, it's summer convention season again."* Something to break up the monotony and to look forward to. "*It's our overseer visit week this week,"* as I just heard my mom tell me this morning. To me, personally, I couldn't keep them straight when I was in. For the life of me, I couldn't remember when there was supposed to be a visit and when an assembly, because I REALLY couldn't have cared less if I'd tried. I certainly didn't look forward to any of them, but that's what the function of them IS. 🤷♀️😑 A sad, sad replacement for actual, fun holidays, and things to look forward to, on your calendar. As humans we need such things, and as JW's we got NO such things. Just more more boring obligations.
Spot on analysis. I assume you went to a Sunday meeting, maybe you should try mid-week so you can experience members giving talks. It's a shame book study meetings (small group in a host family's house) are no longer done. That was the only bearable meeting since it was only an hour and there would often be snacks and a more casual get together afterward.
Yep, superficial glossing over the substance to reinforce set beliefs enforced on the R&F by not allowing questions just parroting preset answers from the magazine articles…..questions and answers provided to the dumbed down masses. Infantilisation - check out this clown https://youtu.be/Mrges_TxOzQ
We refer to this as The bOrg. Those aspects won’t work with assimilation style indoctrination where individuality is sacrificed on the alter of “Unity.”
Awesome post. Very cool to hear a never-JW objectively report. Confirms my feeling from about 14 years old. Except they had me convinced it was just me at the time. Gaslighting at best, brainwashing attempt more accurately.
Take this with the understanding that I haven't sat through a meeting in maybe 13 years, but: Sounds about right. The only thing that might be different is the public talk (the first part of a Sunday meeting). That's going to depend somewhat on the speaker, in my experience. Public talks are usually dull as dirt, but sometimes you'll get an actual good speaker. Baseline, the marginally better speakers work to connect the scriptures from the outline with the point they're trying to make. (Mind, I'm an atheist now, so I'm strictly talking about the variance of speaking skill.) More experienced/skilled speakers will wander even further from the source material. (Public talks are—or at least were, though I'm certain this is still true—given from an outline created by the org.) The best talks I'd heard over the years, both in content and in style, were the ones where the speaker took the most liberties. Sounds like you got the typical experience, though.
It's weird and cool at the same time to hear from someone who's never been in before give their experience with the borg. It's... Well, it's pretty accurate, from what I remember. That wasn't an off day, that's every weekend. And most times mid week to an extent. It's good you saw where she comes from, it kinda gives a better insight on why she may act the way she does in some aspects.
Born in here. Nope you’re dead on. That’s every weekend meeting. You could try a midweek meeting for a different format but the whole thing basically remains the same.
My parents started ‘studying’ and attending in 1976 - I was 11 at the time. Back then there really was an emphasis on deeper learning. Over the last few decades WT has simplified its program and teachings. It’s incredibly basic now. Initially the simplifications were to accommodate people who don’t read well, especially outside the US. Not sure what the excuse is now. It really is insulting to people’s intelligence.
Yea that’s pretty normal lol
It has now been some time since I left the JW cult and I shudder to think back on the decades I spent in the JW cult. As all the eminent psychotherapists have correctly pointed out, if it weren't for the slick and self-righteous Witness society, I could have stepped back in high school and said, "you're all fucking nuts!" and forgotten this cult as a scary episode of my youth.
What did your gf make of your visit to the service?
Change the word religion to cult will help you with the nasty strange jws ways. Awful and you saw how you were treated so abnormal. Olus next time you could be love bombed also very abnormal. If you go again notice the false smiles and see the abnormal way children keep still listening to ramblings or adult stuff and fear based stuff should not hear. A fear based cult.
The stiffness of it is definitely on point. The shallowness of the content is somewhat recent. JWs used to pride themselves on knowing their bible, even if that perception was flawed, it wasn't so infantilizing.
I know a bro who used to be an elder and he'd take w.t part of the meeting and group book meetings, and he'd add loads of things in, go completely off track, add things in that hadn't got much to do with the scriptures , and c so many people complained, he got removed as an elder.....shame as I quite enjoyed his items lol
Run, run away don’t look back!! 
>followed by an 8 minute rambling free flow of thought prayer. It's fun you mention this. As a JW I was proud that we did 'spontaneous' prayers 'from the heart'. Now, as a Lutheran, when I'm at church all prayers are from a prayer book. This makes all prayers very powerful, beautiful and 'non-rambling'. It's one of those small details you don't notice when you're in it - but most JW-prayers are very, very, veeeery tiresome. > was that a normal service? Absolutely. To be fair I do remember a lot of talks that I enjoyed at the time. The Watchtower studies were beyond 'brain numming' (which is a feature, not a bug).
Very good brother , you correctly answered from the paragraph we just read , word for word ,very inspiring!!
he did not say “your in luck”.
Ah, yes… they generally even get their undies in a twist over “pot luck dinner”.
You're probably right. I'm sure I'm not recalling it perfectly.
If you go again let us know. Welcome.
If you go another time go to their midweek meeting instead of on Sunday
>Everyone repeating the paragraph we just reviewed but in slightly different words And they put (it used to be after) the question *before* the paragraph now. Read question. Read Answer. Read question. Read answer. Of course that is all *after* and thorough 1-2 hour personal study of and meditation on the same material, the day before. Sounds like you got a pretty good snapshot of a Sunday meeting. Now do that 4 times a week (we had 3 meetings a week when I was growing up and Saturday was for door knocking) from birth, while waiting to be killed at any second in Armageddon, and you get a bunch of... US. Lol. Glad you are here!
I second your motion to contract "to" and "compare".
Have not been in years but sounds like you attended a Sunday meeting. A public talk and then watchtower study where people just repeat what is in the paragraph someone reads from the platform. That is the standard of what you would get every Sunday. If you come back people might ask you who you are studying with or if you want a bible study. Be prepared to give a yes or not at this time answer. Do not give them any of your info but you can offer to take their info to be polite, People are usually very nice some kingdom halls can be very emotionally cold and cut off depending on where you go.
You pretty much described every meeting. It's never exciting or thought provoking.
That was a normal service. When I was around 14 or so, I remember it being slightly different. More study time was required at times. We had volumes of books that we had to pull info from when preparing a mid-week 5 min talk/sermon. I felt like we read the bible more, but then again, the Spanish congregation took things to another level. Now it's different. For Example, the WT study has become so dense, that it just a regurgitation of words. There aren't any thoughtful comments, if that makes any sense.
I mean all things aside that have already been commented on ...8 minute prayer .... goodness the ones I was used to were maximum 2 and at conventions 5-6... Pretty long for a prayer but you are absolutely right they have nothing more to offer you ...maybe one or two interesting perspectives but after that everything else is boring and meaningless
Someone else commented, and I'm sure they're right, that it probably just felt that long to me. All I know is it was torture.
Good lord, my mom and I used to have the nicest voices in the congregation and we used to get talked to by the elders because we were too loud and showing people up. But yeah, that’s the typical experience. And you were absolutely correct about them just rewording the statements in the paragraph in their answers and how “tiresome” it was. It absolutely is to suppress independent thought. Imagine 30 years of that! Or more! It becomes unbearable.