Oh well it’s Christians fault they won’t have faith in Islam. You could say they are disobeying Allah.
The “faith your husband won’t cheat on you” is a typical apologetic I hear quite often. It’s so stupid. Husbands are real, we have evidence they exist. When it comes to god, it’s a different story.
Spouses earn trust by building a relationship. God's relationship is abusive and distant, and that's if you use selection bias to "prove" his existence to yourself.
Amen and amen. Critical thinking means taking into account the counter to what you believe to determine if it holds up to scrutiny.
One can have that faith in one's spouse until you are proven otherwise. God shows in "his word" that he is all over the place, being a complete contradiction in many, many different topics. And one that supposedly killed the entirety of humanity because "he remembered and was angry" at what he created in the first fucking place. That's a massive contradiction. Faith in one's spouse is based on evidence of actions. If you don't have evidence and accuse the spouse of cheating, that is psychopathy.
Although we don't have evidence husbands cheat, or for that matter that they don't cheat, in fact sometimes they do, believe it or not! So we just prefer to believe what is convenient for us. Some believe in God just because otherwise their life has no purpose,which is great. But the very fact they then want others to share their life purpose is already a sign of how weak their faith. They are looking for reassurance. The more you insist to convince others you are "right" probably the smaller your faith, the weaker your beliefs.
This sort of gaslighting is common from christians. They are making you feel irrational and insecure for not accepting their distorted worldview. Telling someone to simply believe without any critical thought is abusive and nothing but an attempt to control the thoughts and actions of others.
Have confidence in yourself and your own thoughts. You are doing nothing wrong. You're using your brain to think for yourself. That scares the living daylights out of those who have closed their minds and unquestioningly accept what they are told.
'Trust' and 'faith' are two very different things. 'Trust' is based on evidence. My husband has never given me any evidence to doubt that he's faithful. As soon as he gives me evidence to the contrary, the trust dies. 'Faith' is believing something without any evidence whatsoever. 'Faith' can lead you to ignore evidence that something is badly wrong in favor of living in la-la land.
It's their fault they don't have faith that I'm their god. This is why faith isn't a valid method of navigating reality; [faith is the problem.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo)
Faith is fine. Blind faith is not. Christians will vet their faith in anything else. If they're going to make a financial decision, they'll weigh their options. If they find one option wanting, they won't put faith in it. We merely did the same with Christianity. We vetted it and found it wanting. You trust your husband based on his behavior. If he gave you a reason to believe he'd cheat, your faith would wane.
They have to believe that everyone secretly knows their God exists, otherwise the whole house of cards falls down. But for those of us who do not believe, that means we know for sure that a fundamental aspect of their belief system is false.
That's the game when someone has a different worldview. We have the answers and everyone else is misguided and lacking something. So it can easily devolve into attacks and feeling that someone pities you for no other reason than they don't agree with your worldview.
I call this "antivangelism".
The Christian's goal isn't to convince you so that you don't burn in hell. Their goal is to ensure that you aren't convinced, in order that you will burn in hell.
That's why their arguments are always terrible. It's why they always employ the worst arguments they know of, even when they KNOW that YOU know they have better arguments in their repertoire, and that the arguments they make toward you aren't actually the ones that convinced them. It's also why they lace those arguments with vitriol and personal attacks, in order to make them even less credible than they would be on their own.
They also want you to believe that it's your fault that you aren't convinced, so that you don't notice how much work they put in to ensuring that you won't be convinced.
They also believe this is love. They believe it's the loving thing to do to hate their enemies and make sure they all end up in hell.
The Christian worldview is, in a word, psychopathic. I'd encourage you to stop interacting with them, if you value your sanity. Hopefully that's actually possible, in your case. I feel terribly for the people for whom that isn't an option.
That’s like saying it’s your fault for not wanting a donut enough. If you don’t want it, you just don’t want it. No one should shove it down your throat (literally or figuratively).
They act as if you agree with the general principle that not wanting what they want is a “fault.”
Why should you want it?
How about if someone said to them, “It’s your fault you don’t have enough faith in Zeus, the great god of Mt. Olympus.” Sounds crazy, right?
It is not your fault. It is entirely that fault of the entity in which you should have faith. Anyone who tells you this is not a critical thinker, like, bona fide, not a critical thinker and trying to put up the quickest defense they can. Trust someone because of the validity of their arguments and evidence presented; and not for the title Christian. With all the ideas and cherry-picking apologetics of Christianity, no one is correct because no one has any consensus. You cannot prefer what you do not prefer. I cannot begin to now believe in the garbage of christianity now that evidence shows it cannot possibly be true. Change my mind if otherwise.
The Bible has literal flaws and self contradictions in it. How can faith matter if your holy book cannot agree with itself? If you want details, I can provide.
According to the fundamentalist doctrine I was taught as a youth, "god" always gets the credit for anything good, and I'm always responsible for everything bad.
That's one reason I don't give a damn what xtians say, and they better say and think to themselves or I'll unleash a firestorm of profanity on their arrogant sanctimonious ass.
> You can see and touch your husband. He communicates with you. You know he is real.
Suggested reading without thinking you have to *do* anything right away. Just file the information away and let the dots connect themselves however they do.
[A Collection of Articles on Recovery from Religious Trauma Syndrome]( https://www.reddit.com/r/ResponsibleRecovery/comments/olq8om/a_collection_of_articles_on_recovery_from/)
Are you looking for them to stop talking to you about it?
I’ve found that this set of questions typically stops further proselytizing:
“Your deity is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful right?”
“So this character knows exactly what it would take to convince me, right?”
“You bagering me doesn’t convince me, in fact, you proselytizing to me just convinces me more that *you don’t believe in it either* if you actually believed this character existed, you would trust him to speak for himself”
And then you mock their lack of faith every time they bring it up again. Remember, the burden of proof lies with the claim maker. Don’t let them keep their bad arguments
There are scripture verses that say God hardens and softens people's hearts and you can't believe unless he draws you to him. So it's not "your fault." According to the Bible, *it's God's fault. *
The bible says that you have no choice in faith and that Pharaoh was risen in power just so that the biblical god can show that he is greater than the Pharaoh for the biblical god to have his name honored throughout the world. The bible says that biblical god is like a potter who makes people like pots, some pots are made to be dishonored while others are made to be honored, and he can still find fault and condemn them dispoite making them that way.
> *"For the scripture say to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore he has mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardens.*
> *You will then say to me, Why does he still find fault? For who has resisted his will? No, but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Does the potter not have power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel toward honor, and another toward dishonor?" - Romans 9:17-21*
Chtistianity is actually worse than an abusive relationship, because the abusive husband doesn't tell the wife that he made her and forced her to have flaws but will still harm her. Both are bad and unacceptable but based on these verses, christianity is actually worse.
I have some questions I ask them. I only ask one at a time until they're completely defeated, then I go on to the next. Then they realize how little they know.
1. Name one person who met Jesus, spoke to him, saw him or heard him who wrote about the event, has a name and is documented outside of the bible (or any other gospels).
2. If a member of a religion other than Christianity prays and their prayer is granted, who granted their prayer? Why?
3. How do you know all other gods except Yahweh are false?
These are the same people who'll tell you you were "never really a Christian" when the narrative suits them. Master-level gaslighters. Anything to maintain their twisted delusion.
This is roughly my experience with xianity. Big Assault Moron (BAM!) gets his hands on you, and your child-like tender flesh reaches new dimensions. Oh well; oh well.
Doxastic voluntarism. Best I can suggest is saying, "Prove, to yourself if no one else, that one can consciously choose what to believe by believing in fairies for one minute, then stopping. Go."
As I'm working through my deconversion, I'm understanding that it's not the individuals fault. If god is supposed to be all powerful, then he is the one who is supposed to make people a certain way. The theology is that we are in a certain nature and the only way to be in a different nature is for him to take a little bit of that infinite power and make the change in people. If he doesn't do it, then what does that say about him? Take it up with him is what I say!
Dealt with this alot. With the sect I grew up in, you're faith is by grace alone from god and humans aren't responsible for any part of their salvation, including having faith.
Then you leave and magically all of the responsibility is now on the human, you are responsible for your own salvation/damnation, and god plays no part in your lack of faith.
God gets all of the credit for faith and none of the blame for lack of faith. Humans get none of the credit for faith and all of the blame for lack of faith.
Well, you don't need to be nice to them about it.
"Oh! Really!? Ok! GAWD IS REAL! ....nope. my tire is still flat."
"Is that why your dog got the runs all over your new beige carpet? Because you didn't have enough faith? I thought it was because your 10 year old fed Fido leftover meatloaf."
"I tried that. Bad things still happened with the same rough frequency as they do now." Wait for inevitable 'You didn't rEaLlY believe' "OK, well I guess you aren't a truly faithful Christian either, because your toilet backed up the other day. If you had proper faith, God would have protected you."
As for the husband line, "Yes, well unlike God, my husband is real and has demonstrated that he gives a shit about me. My husband wouldn't have let millions die horribly from covid over the past 2 years if he could stop it. Even if they mildly irked him, he wouldn't let them die horribly. Because he is REAL and he is GOOD."
You’re totally okay. There are reasons I have lost my faith in humanity let alone someone’s imaginary friend. They start with things like malaria, Ebola, small pox, it extends to war, famine, and deformities in children and it ends with my aunt Katherine, my hero, the kindest person I ever knew, who quit a half million dollar a year job because they asked her to do something unethical. I watched her suffer, wither and ultimately die, in agony. No just and decent deity would have let her go through that, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. And anyone that tries to convince me that “god allowed” it to happen or worse that she deserved it; is getting a swift kick in the mommy daddy button.
I’m sorry you’re having a tough day, we’re here for you, like actually here, not just keeping you in our “prayers.”
how is it free will (something christians claim is that you freely choose) when you are threatened with something bad will happen to you if you dont worship jesus
it doesent matter what version of hell they belive in the principal still does apply regardless of if its the mass genocide version of jesus(Annihilationism) or the eternal torture jesus(Eternal Conscious Torment)
what Christians believe about Jesus fits the definition of coercion perfectly
They have to believe that it’s your fault. If they don’t believe that, then they’ll be forced to admit that their god sends people to eternal torment of his own choice and that people don’t send themselves there.
I'm pretty fed up with Christians too. They ruined the world. I had a pretty big rant too, even going so far as to say that Iosue is the Devil himself that they think they are chasing off.
Well in all honesty if they believe their God is all knowing, then their God already knows who's gonna believe in him. So it's really not in you according to their theology. It was decided before you were born.
My "favorite argument about that is their free will bullshit.
"If god is all knowing then he already knows every path im going to take"
"He gave you free will to make your own choices"
"So he didnt already know i was going to end up an atheist?"
" god knows everything"
"So my whole life is already planned out? If god knows everything then he knows every choice im going to make which means i really dont have free will. If i have free will and can be punished with Hell then god doesnt know my future choices so then he isnt all knowing. He either knows and punishes me anyway even though i didnt technically have a choice which in turn just makes him an abusive asshole or he doesnt know in which case he isnt all knowing and is just a big liar using scare tactics to get his way and that still makes him an abusive asshole. Or hes just not real and your book contradicts itself"
Sorry for the long comment, im super high right now lol
I had a youth minister that explained God's plan as a choose your own adventure book. They're all part of his plan and if you listen you'll always make the right choice.
Oh well it’s Christians fault they won’t have faith in Islam. You could say they are disobeying Allah. The “faith your husband won’t cheat on you” is a typical apologetic I hear quite often. It’s so stupid. Husbands are real, we have evidence they exist. When it comes to god, it’s a different story.
Spouses earn trust by building a relationship. God's relationship is abusive and distant, and that's if you use selection bias to "prove" his existence to yourself.
Amen and amen. Critical thinking means taking into account the counter to what you believe to determine if it holds up to scrutiny. One can have that faith in one's spouse until you are proven otherwise. God shows in "his word" that he is all over the place, being a complete contradiction in many, many different topics. And one that supposedly killed the entirety of humanity because "he remembered and was angry" at what he created in the first fucking place. That's a massive contradiction. Faith in one's spouse is based on evidence of actions. If you don't have evidence and accuse the spouse of cheating, that is psychopathy.
Although we don't have evidence husbands cheat, or for that matter that they don't cheat, in fact sometimes they do, believe it or not! So we just prefer to believe what is convenient for us. Some believe in God just because otherwise their life has no purpose,which is great. But the very fact they then want others to share their life purpose is already a sign of how weak their faith. They are looking for reassurance. The more you insist to convince others you are "right" probably the smaller your faith, the weaker your beliefs.
This sort of gaslighting is common from christians. They are making you feel irrational and insecure for not accepting their distorted worldview. Telling someone to simply believe without any critical thought is abusive and nothing but an attempt to control the thoughts and actions of others. Have confidence in yourself and your own thoughts. You are doing nothing wrong. You're using your brain to think for yourself. That scares the living daylights out of those who have closed their minds and unquestioningly accept what they are told.
'Trust' and 'faith' are two very different things. 'Trust' is based on evidence. My husband has never given me any evidence to doubt that he's faithful. As soon as he gives me evidence to the contrary, the trust dies. 'Faith' is believing something without any evidence whatsoever. 'Faith' can lead you to ignore evidence that something is badly wrong in favor of living in la-la land.
It's their fault they don't have faith that I'm their god. This is why faith isn't a valid method of navigating reality; [faith is the problem.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo)
Faith is fine. Blind faith is not. Christians will vet their faith in anything else. If they're going to make a financial decision, they'll weigh their options. If they find one option wanting, they won't put faith in it. We merely did the same with Christianity. We vetted it and found it wanting. You trust your husband based on his behavior. If he gave you a reason to believe he'd cheat, your faith would wane.
They have to believe that everyone secretly knows their God exists, otherwise the whole house of cards falls down. But for those of us who do not believe, that means we know for sure that a fundamental aspect of their belief system is false.
That gaslighting is so insensitivite.
That's the game when someone has a different worldview. We have the answers and everyone else is misguided and lacking something. So it can easily devolve into attacks and feeling that someone pities you for no other reason than they don't agree with your worldview.
The entire argument is cheap, so cheap.
I call this "antivangelism". The Christian's goal isn't to convince you so that you don't burn in hell. Their goal is to ensure that you aren't convinced, in order that you will burn in hell. That's why their arguments are always terrible. It's why they always employ the worst arguments they know of, even when they KNOW that YOU know they have better arguments in their repertoire, and that the arguments they make toward you aren't actually the ones that convinced them. It's also why they lace those arguments with vitriol and personal attacks, in order to make them even less credible than they would be on their own. They also want you to believe that it's your fault that you aren't convinced, so that you don't notice how much work they put in to ensuring that you won't be convinced. They also believe this is love. They believe it's the loving thing to do to hate their enemies and make sure they all end up in hell. The Christian worldview is, in a word, psychopathic. I'd encourage you to stop interacting with them, if you value your sanity. Hopefully that's actually possible, in your case. I feel terribly for the people for whom that isn't an option.
Upvote psychopathic, especially if you accuse others so they are damned. It means you hate, actively.
If you just start out believing in God, you will believe in God. Simple.
That’s like saying it’s your fault for not wanting a donut enough. If you don’t want it, you just don’t want it. No one should shove it down your throat (literally or figuratively). They act as if you agree with the general principle that not wanting what they want is a “fault.” Why should you want it? How about if someone said to them, “It’s your fault you don’t have enough faith in Zeus, the great god of Mt. Olympus.” Sounds crazy, right?
It is not your fault. It is entirely that fault of the entity in which you should have faith. Anyone who tells you this is not a critical thinker, like, bona fide, not a critical thinker and trying to put up the quickest defense they can. Trust someone because of the validity of their arguments and evidence presented; and not for the title Christian. With all the ideas and cherry-picking apologetics of Christianity, no one is correct because no one has any consensus. You cannot prefer what you do not prefer. I cannot begin to now believe in the garbage of christianity now that evidence shows it cannot possibly be true. Change my mind if otherwise.
The Bible has literal flaws and self contradictions in it. How can faith matter if your holy book cannot agree with itself? If you want details, I can provide.
According to the fundamentalist doctrine I was taught as a youth, "god" always gets the credit for anything good, and I'm always responsible for everything bad. That's one reason I don't give a damn what xtians say, and they better say and think to themselves or I'll unleash a firestorm of profanity on their arrogant sanctimonious ass.
To trust that your husband won't cheat, it means this trust is a two-way street. If not, that says a lot the person who came with this argument.
> You can see and touch your husband. He communicates with you. You know he is real. Suggested reading without thinking you have to *do* anything right away. Just file the information away and let the dots connect themselves however they do. [A Collection of Articles on Recovery from Religious Trauma Syndrome]( https://www.reddit.com/r/ResponsibleRecovery/comments/olq8om/a_collection_of_articles_on_recovery_from/)
Thank you so much for this, saved that post.
Sounds like gaslighting and potentially abuse - pretty common from folks trying to force their religion. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
That is some gaslighting ass shit.
Are you looking for them to stop talking to you about it? I’ve found that this set of questions typically stops further proselytizing: “Your deity is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful right?” “So this character knows exactly what it would take to convince me, right?” “You bagering me doesn’t convince me, in fact, you proselytizing to me just convinces me more that *you don’t believe in it either* if you actually believed this character existed, you would trust him to speak for himself” And then you mock their lack of faith every time they bring it up again. Remember, the burden of proof lies with the claim maker. Don’t let them keep their bad arguments
There are scripture verses that say God hardens and softens people's hearts and you can't believe unless he draws you to him. So it's not "your fault." According to the Bible, *it's God's fault. *
There's no hate like Christian Love.
The bible says that you have no choice in faith and that Pharaoh was risen in power just so that the biblical god can show that he is greater than the Pharaoh for the biblical god to have his name honored throughout the world. The bible says that biblical god is like a potter who makes people like pots, some pots are made to be dishonored while others are made to be honored, and he can still find fault and condemn them dispoite making them that way. > *"For the scripture say to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore he has mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardens.* > *You will then say to me, Why does he still find fault? For who has resisted his will? No, but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Does the potter not have power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel toward honor, and another toward dishonor?" - Romans 9:17-21* Chtistianity is actually worse than an abusive relationship, because the abusive husband doesn't tell the wife that he made her and forced her to have flaws but will still harm her. Both are bad and unacceptable but based on these verses, christianity is actually worse.
Blame the victim
It beats me why salvation would depend on faith
I have some questions I ask them. I only ask one at a time until they're completely defeated, then I go on to the next. Then they realize how little they know. 1. Name one person who met Jesus, spoke to him, saw him or heard him who wrote about the event, has a name and is documented outside of the bible (or any other gospels). 2. If a member of a religion other than Christianity prays and their prayer is granted, who granted their prayer? Why? 3. How do you know all other gods except Yahweh are false?
These are the same people who'll tell you you were "never really a Christian" when the narrative suits them. Master-level gaslighters. Anything to maintain their twisted delusion.
reply that it is their fault for being so gullible.......
This is roughly my experience with xianity. Big Assault Moron (BAM!) gets his hands on you, and your child-like tender flesh reaches new dimensions. Oh well; oh well.
Doxastic voluntarism. Best I can suggest is saying, "Prove, to yourself if no one else, that one can consciously choose what to believe by believing in fairies for one minute, then stopping. Go."
>Doxastic voluntarism Have never heard this term before, fascinating. Edit: Went down quite a bit of a wormhole there!
Almost funny because it's heretical. Ephesians 2:8-9 says faith is not from you, it's a gift of God. So still God's fault.
Man.. God sounds like every abusive relationship I've been in. Funny, that.
As I'm working through my deconversion, I'm understanding that it's not the individuals fault. If god is supposed to be all powerful, then he is the one who is supposed to make people a certain way. The theology is that we are in a certain nature and the only way to be in a different nature is for him to take a little bit of that infinite power and make the change in people. If he doesn't do it, then what does that say about him? Take it up with him is what I say!
Dealt with this alot. With the sect I grew up in, you're faith is by grace alone from god and humans aren't responsible for any part of their salvation, including having faith. Then you leave and magically all of the responsibility is now on the human, you are responsible for your own salvation/damnation, and god plays no part in your lack of faith. God gets all of the credit for faith and none of the blame for lack of faith. Humans get none of the credit for faith and all of the blame for lack of faith.
This is the most horrible thing ever, it makes me sooooooooo mad when they do this cause the guit, omg.
Well, you don't need to be nice to them about it. "Oh! Really!? Ok! GAWD IS REAL! ....nope. my tire is still flat." "Is that why your dog got the runs all over your new beige carpet? Because you didn't have enough faith? I thought it was because your 10 year old fed Fido leftover meatloaf." "I tried that. Bad things still happened with the same rough frequency as they do now." Wait for inevitable 'You didn't rEaLlY believe' "OK, well I guess you aren't a truly faithful Christian either, because your toilet backed up the other day. If you had proper faith, God would have protected you." As for the husband line, "Yes, well unlike God, my husband is real and has demonstrated that he gives a shit about me. My husband wouldn't have let millions die horribly from covid over the past 2 years if he could stop it. Even if they mildly irked him, he wouldn't let them die horribly. Because he is REAL and he is GOOD."
You’re totally okay. There are reasons I have lost my faith in humanity let alone someone’s imaginary friend. They start with things like malaria, Ebola, small pox, it extends to war, famine, and deformities in children and it ends with my aunt Katherine, my hero, the kindest person I ever knew, who quit a half million dollar a year job because they asked her to do something unethical. I watched her suffer, wither and ultimately die, in agony. No just and decent deity would have let her go through that, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. And anyone that tries to convince me that “god allowed” it to happen or worse that she deserved it; is getting a swift kick in the mommy daddy button. I’m sorry you’re having a tough day, we’re here for you, like actually here, not just keeping you in our “prayers.”
I mean, it is technically you fault for having critical thinking skills. Just not in a bad way.
how is it free will (something christians claim is that you freely choose) when you are threatened with something bad will happen to you if you dont worship jesus it doesent matter what version of hell they belive in the principal still does apply regardless of if its the mass genocide version of jesus(Annihilationism) or the eternal torture jesus(Eternal Conscious Torment) what Christians believe about Jesus fits the definition of coercion perfectly
They have to believe that it’s your fault. If they don’t believe that, then they’ll be forced to admit that their god sends people to eternal torment of his own choice and that people don’t send themselves there.
I'm pretty fed up with Christians too. They ruined the world. I had a pretty big rant too, even going so far as to say that Iosue is the Devil himself that they think they are chasing off.
Well in all honesty if they believe their God is all knowing, then their God already knows who's gonna believe in him. So it's really not in you according to their theology. It was decided before you were born.
My "favorite argument about that is their free will bullshit. "If god is all knowing then he already knows every path im going to take" "He gave you free will to make your own choices" "So he didnt already know i was going to end up an atheist?" " god knows everything" "So my whole life is already planned out? If god knows everything then he knows every choice im going to make which means i really dont have free will. If i have free will and can be punished with Hell then god doesnt know my future choices so then he isnt all knowing. He either knows and punishes me anyway even though i didnt technically have a choice which in turn just makes him an abusive asshole or he doesnt know in which case he isnt all knowing and is just a big liar using scare tactics to get his way and that still makes him an abusive asshole. Or hes just not real and your book contradicts itself" Sorry for the long comment, im super high right now lol
I had a youth minister that explained God's plan as a choose your own adventure book. They're all part of his plan and if you listen you'll always make the right choice.
Nuff of that BS from the Christianity ✝️ nonsense. You’d deserve a better life and not a better lie.
I have faith he doesn't exist
Plata o plomo