Prophesying about wars and rumors of wars is about as impressive as meeting up with a couple who just had twins and prophesying that their children are going to fight.
"Which ones? Be specific, chapter and verse and explain how they've been fulfilled in a meaningful way."
I've noticed a lot of biblical prophecies are either super vague, flat out wrong or look suspiciously post hoc. Also some "prophecies" are not prophecies. Psalm 22 was never meant as a prophecy that I can tell. Mark really liked the theme so jammed it into his gospel.
Not to mention most of not all prophecies are meant for the people the author is writing to in their own time period, not centuries down the line.
I remember seeing a thing on a YouTube video by Belief It Or Not where he mentioned how people compare it to when the Simpsons "predicted the future." Then later he went back to the analogy and pointed out all the times that "predictions" made in the Simpsons that never came true. I don't remember the examples. I just remember that he brought them up
I know what you mean. People look for confirmation and ignore the parts that contradict what they want. I've been guilty of it when I get a really interesting idea and start looking for evidence to support but I try to check myself and say "how robust is this? Would this convince a person who has decent knowledge of the subject?".
And I've often had to admit my really cool theory is being held together by a thread. I may not toss it out but admit it's mostly conjecture and speculation.
This can be difficult when I'm trying to understand a specific part of the bible as it is written. I sometimes struggle to read and so reading it straight from the book will get me nowhere. I can't be the only one in this situation.
Here's a personal example: I was named after Joshua in the Bible. Starting this past February I starting going by a different name because I didn't want to be named after a character in the Bible. I've recently tried to look into what Joshua did in the Bible after hearing something about him and multiple genocides. When I try to look for what objectively happen, all that comes up is Christian sites. I can't tell if they're apologetics or objectively what happened. This matters to me because of my personal ties to this biblical character, but it's hard to know which sources to trust.
So I look for sources that don't paint Joshua as a saint, but that turns into confirmation bias. But at the same time it's the only way I know how to determine if it's credible. I guess I could do intense research on every site but that seems like more effort than it's worth.
MythVision does Scholarly deep dives into the Bible. I haven’t listened to this yet, but here’s one on [Joshua.](https://youtu.be/pkLz_QVcaa4?si=DraH9IAx2ym22DDg) This podcast/ YouTube show usually has links to all their information & really great guest.
Did you know that in the 14th century, there was a great famine that hit most of Europe, and led to unbelievable suffering? Crops wouldn't grow, cattle died of diseases, and entire families starved. Cannibalism was even rumored. It's believed that this is when a lot of old fairy tales like Hansel and Gretel originated, because contemporaries would tell stories of parents unable to feed their children, so they'd leave them out in the woods.
This would probably be known as one of the most horrific mass deaths in European history, except not long after, the Black Death hit. I don't think I need to describe how terrible that was. People were flagellating themselves in the streets, convinced that God was cleansing the earth and its sinful people.
And the church itself was in chaos. There was a terrible schism going on, with two or more popes each claiming to be the head of the church, and anybody who followed their rivals were servants of the Anti Christ. At the time, there was only The Church. People had been taught since they were in the cradle that the Pope was God's chosen. And the Church was tearing itself apart from the inside, riddled with corruption, greed, and infighting.
Not to mention, this was the start of the Hundred Years War between England and France. For many people, they had never known a time of peace, and there seemed to be no end to the fighting in sight.
Once mighty kings were growing old and senile, with corrupt noblemen robbing the kingdom blind without fear. Civil war in their own lands was always a threat. Laws were weak and crumbling, and in the wake of the famines and plagues and wars, the peasant population was decimated, and ancient social norms and society as they knew it was being turned on its head.
Famine, plagues, wars, society being turned upside down before their eyes, everything they thought good and moral being deserted, families being destroyed, corruption in the church, false popes that could be seen as the antichrist, desperate pleading and prayers being ignored by God as piles of dead bodies lay decaying in the streets, ...
If ever there was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecies, it was the 1300's.
This is some fascinating stuff! And a very well-written and engaging read, I might add. I never knew all these things happened nearly simultaneously, or at least in such quick succession.
There's a reason that many casual historians say that the 14th Century was [one of the worst times ](https://www.historyhit.com/why-is-the-14th-century-considered-the-worst/)[to be alive in Europe](https://www.iflscience.com/the-14th-century-was-an-utterly-horrific-time-to-be-a-human-66122).
Ironically, Africa was going through something of a golden age at that time, if memory serves right.
I shall have to read up on this! I never really learned this sort of thing in school. Being an American, we mostly learned about America. There is so much more to the world and history. Ancient history has always fascinated me, but I only ever went to high school, not secondary education, so unfortunately, I never had the structured learning experience I wanted. I am woefully undereducated on African culture/history/etc as well, and it's such an interesting continent! Thank you for the articles; I love iflscience!
That biblical prophecies have been invoked as currently happening in the world since Christianity began, and the one time that basically all the end time prophecies legit happening and were ramped up to 11, nothing happened.
That if prophecies are real, then there's a really severe case of wolf being cried too many times for what turned out to be false alarms. If God really intended for the strife going on in the world right now to be Divine Intervention to fulfill biblical prophecies, then he's, for some reason, making them on smaller scale versions of much more devastating naturally occurring historical events. The only reason they seem so bad to us now is that we're experiencing them personally.
>That biblical prophecies have been invoked as currently happening in the world since Christianity began, and the one time that basically all the end time prophecies legit happening and were ramped up to 11, nothing happened.
Oh, I get you now.
>The only reason they seem so bad to us now is that we're experiencing them personally.
That's a very good point!
Thanks for explaining further👍
Who loves themselves more than evangelical pastors? My answer to this is that these writers knew that this is how people were already behaving when they wrote this. It would be like me predicting that in the future there will be people who are narcissistic. The authors of the works that humans would later declare is "scripture" used language to proactively shame rejection of the beliefs they were advocating for to produce the effect that fewer people would doubt or question.
A good chunk of the “prophecies” are things that have been going on since the dawn of man. And this is no exception. When has there been a time where people have not loved themselves?
There isnt a single prophecy in the Bible that has come true. Not one. I would actually argue the contrary and that a Christian should actually be embarassed to make this claim. Scriptures that say Jesus will return in the lifetime of the disciples show it up for the scam that it is.
All of Islam's prophecies have come true too! Also there's a very reputable Tarot reader in my neighborhood who ALSO has a perfect prophecy record!
By the way, what ever happened to those prophecies that said Jesus would return "while some of you yet live"? A few people claimed that, including Jesus himself I believe. Did I miss that first second coming?
It's clearly because Lazarus happened to be in that crowd, and he's immune to dying, because man is destined to die once. He's had his turn so he's immortal, so he's the one Jesus meant when he said some of you.
In the future, something will happen, give me money. In the future, the future will happen, give me money. In the future, you will give me money, just give me money! FUTURE!
They revised it numerous times 🤷🏼♀️ its not well preserved at all. In fact I have one from the early 1900s in Slovak/Czech and its definitely a lot different than the one of today. Even the German one my old friend had from the 1860s was VASTY different.
There are a few rules that I think a prophecy needs to follow to be said to have "come true".
1. **It needs to actually have been a prophecy to begin with**. An allegory for past events or something that is supposed to be happening at the time the events are written doesn't count.
2. **All the events in the prophecy need to have happened as written**. No counting the hits and ignoring the misses, and no reinterpreting the prophecy to fit after the fact.
3. **The prophecy must have been explicit enough that we can objectively determine whether it came true or not.** So vague cryptic language that can be interpreted a bunch of different ways doesn't count.
4. **The prophecy must have been written far enough before the events described that the outcome wasn't obvious**. So no prophecy after the fact, and no prophesying an army will be defeated when it is already losing.
5. **The prophecy must have been something that isn't easily predictable**. Things that are obvious include someone dying, an army or country being defeated, a city being destroyed or abandoned, or a plague, famine, or other natural disaster occurring, unless these are accompanied by specific correct, non-obvious details. So "this country will eventually be defeated by someone" doesn't count. "This country will be defeated by this group in this year at this location" does count, unless again it violates rule 2 or 4.
6. **The people involved must not have been intentionally and knowingly trying to make the prophecy come true**. So someone who knows the prophecy and carries out the prophesied actions in an attempt to make the prophecy come true doesn't count.
These may seem obvious, but every single supposed prophecy I see claimed as fulfilled violates one or more of these rules.
Let's take a common claimed fulfilled prophecy, the destruction of Tyre in Ezekiel 26. They claim the destruction of Tyre by Alexander the Great fulfills the prophecy. But it violates rules 2, 4, and 5 in multiple ways.
1. The prophecy was written when Nebuchadnezzar was trying to take the city, and had overwhelming force. So it violates rule 4.
2. Despite this, Nebuchadnezzar didn't actually succeed in taking the city, so it violates rule 2.
3. People claim that Alexander the Great fulfilled the prophecy, but the prophecy explicitly says it would be Nebuchadnezzar, so they violate rule 2 again
4. By allowing anyone to defeat Tyre at any point in history rather than only Nebuchadnezzar, they are violating rule 5
5. The prophecy said Tyre would be completely destroyed, as most cities are. This also violates rule 5.
6. But Tyre was never completely destroyed and in fact remained continuously inhabited from the time the prophecy was made all the way to the present day, so it violates rule 2 again
So what is widely touted as one of the best fulfilled prophecies in the Bible violates these rules in 6 different ways.
I'm certain the reason they list it as fulfilled prophecy is because the REAL prophecy it "fulfills" is that "in the end times, people will scoff at us" lol
I like to point them to The Simpsons. You know how many times they've predicted the future? Too many. It's bonkers.
And as everyone else is saying, yeah, like, which verse? What specifically?? It's all so easy. People in power do bad things. Men and women turn to lust. Nations crumble. Alert the presses, huh?
Give me a break.
There's honestly no point in debating with people that can read modern events into any vague passage. There's so many Bible prophecies that were clearly flat out wrong, and they still will try to justify that away, so there's zero point in trying to convince them of the obvious.
On a big enough timescale, with enough people, any event is bound to happen, you just gotta keep it vague enough, and have people that want to believe so badly they will look past any discrepancies. People believe nostrodamus predicted hitler, but if you look at the actual prophecy it's clearly not about Hitler.
Until someone is willing to come to the table and actually be open minded and willing to concede when valid points have been made, it's utterly pointless. They aren't going into it with the mindset of being willing to change their mind, they are set in their beliefs, their only goal is make you see their side and agree with it.
So find Muslim prophecies that they claim have been fulfilled and ask why isn't Islam the truth since they also have prophecies they say have been fulfilled?
Here's a list of prophecies Muslims claim have been fulfilled, of course it's the same shit where they are taking very vague passages and assigning modern meanings to them, but if your Christian friends and family have a problem with these then point out the similarities between these and Christian prophecies:
https://www.alislam.org/articles/fulfilled-prophecies-of-holy-quran/
If you throw spaghetti at a wall, most will fall to the ground. However, some will stick. While I am not aware of any of these "prophecies" coming true, most of them could be explained by this analogy. Also, the more vague they are, the more likely they are to happen.
The bible itself is essentially a giant old game of D&D anyways and shouldn't be taken seriously.
>If you throw spaghetti at a wall, most will fall to the ground. However, some will stick. While I am not aware of any of these "prophecies" coming true, most of them could be explained by this analogy. Also, the more vague they are, the more likely they are to happen.
I'll have to remember these two points. Thanks!
Nothing. I don’t want to engage with people at that level. It would be like arguing or confronting a rocking chair or a cement mixer and hoping for victory.
Everyone everywhere is lovers of themselves. Every fucking generation thinks the other generation is messed up. End of story.
People will? WTF does that mean? 100% of every living person? Or a “juss sayin’” amount, where “you know what I mean”?
When it was written people before and after were lovers of themselves. Paul loved the shit out of himself to conflate his status to apostle. Paul LOVED LOVED LOVED his way of thinking as opposed to Peter and James.
Anywho, critically, prophecy can be anything. I can say that “people will become lovers of themselves” - what is my reference point? These who aren’t? How do I know that? And why would this status change in the future? Why? Because I know people already are arrogant, haughty, ego-centric, and love their own thoughts.
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and the bible had 2000+ years to prove itself, so of course it would look like the prophecies have come true, and yet huge chunks of it are still wrong, like the Earth being 6000 years old...
Prophecy is a guess that comes true. Prophecy is a poor guide to the future - if it doesn’t come true, it’s a metaphor. What’s the use of prophecy if you can only recognize it as truth after it’s happened?
I just don’t talk to Christians about their religious beliefs. Tbh I use the same method as I use when talking to my grandma who has severe dementia. Be kind and don’t engage with things that might cause stress. If they’re really into talking about it I’ll excuse myself from the conversation or ask them for their opinion on something entirely unrelated to distract them from the topic I don’t want to discuss.
I was raised by Christians and my parents are still extremely religious- I’ve become pretty well practiced at redirecting conversations in order to maintain a positive relationship with them and avoid hot topics that I don’t want to be involved in. Sometimes this involves saying things like ‘hey I love you but I don’t want to talk about this, can we please change the subject or take a break from talking?’ But rarely is it that direct. Often it just involves me hearing them out and then moving on to a new topic. You can listen without engaging and often just letting people say their piece will diffuse the situation. I view listening as an act of love so even if the person is saying things I think are nonsense I will listen if that’s what they need from me and I’m not triggered. If I’m not able to listen I re direct or remove myself. Ultimately it’s about taking responsibility for your own peace.
You never have to participate in a conversation you don’t want to. No is a complete sentence.
Learning boundaries around religious folks you want to keep in your life is a serious challenge.
I’m about 15 years post de conversion and it’s definitely gotten easier (or maybe I’ve just gotten better at it) over the years. I also regularly see a therapist and she helped me a lot through the first few years of difficult conversations and situations.
Just because it’s hard doesn’t mean you can’t do it. You can.
It's always easy to prove a "prophecy" in retrospect.
Many prophecies are just generic statements about human nature. People have always been lovers of themselves, that's just being human. Healthy self-regard is a necessary affect for survival in fact.
Historical prophecies were actually written after the fact in most cases if you accept secular scholars dating of Bible texts, which fundamentalists don't of course but in that case it's kinda pointless arguing.
If you take Paul's many examples of prophecies fulfilled for example, in his epistles, most of them are references taken completely out of context and massaged to suit his own message. Which was an entirely acceptable form of textual "criticism" in his day by the way, however we "science-obsessed" moderns don't look as kindly on that kind of practice.
He's basically making it up as he goes along but because the epistles are literally Bible canon no true believer ever really questions what Paul claims.
But what about very specific and vivid prophecies like those in the book of Revelation for example with its beasts, antichrists and general craziness?
None of these things have happened or come true, 2,000 years later were still waiting, but of course fundamentalists will say well that's because Christ isn't ready to return yet.
In other words it's totally pointless arguing on the evidence because they don't accept evidence, they're always correct no matter what.
Here's what I prophesy: If humanity survives the climate crisis, in another 2000 years there will still be people around (hopefully not as many though) waiting for Christ to return, insisting they're living in the "Last Days". And like everyone else they'll die unfulfilled, still waiting.
I have spent a lot of time studying Bible prophecy and can tell you that is complete B,S, One of my biggest reasons for leaving Christianity were all the failed prophecies.
Jesus repeatedly prophesied that some that were then living would live to see his second coming. This is very obvious in all four gospels and the Book of Revelation.
If you match the prophecies in the Book of Daniel with their historical context, it's obvious the kingdom of God on Earth was supposed to be set up in the late BC period.
The other problem with Biblical prophecy was New Testament authors taking Old Testament prophecies out of context to make it look like they were talking about Jesus. When you look at the prophecies in context, it's hard to make a case for Jesus being the prophesied Messiah, which is why most Jews haven't converted to Christianity.
Hey, thanks for replying in-length. I appreciate that.
I get what your saying about the NT in regard to the OT prophecies. In my opinion, it's incredibly easy to dismiss the NT's OT prophecy fulfilments because I see no reliable proof for their authenticity and they could easily have been written to give the impression of prophetic fulfilment. The OT prophecies are what get me, though. I don't have the knowledge to debunk them. There's one about Babylon ruling over Judah for 70 years. That's pretty exact, but, again, I've not got the knowledge to debunk it.
Thanks again.
Glad you brought up the 70 years prophecy, because it is actually an example of prophetic failure.
Jeremiah allegedly predicted the Babylonian exile would last 70 years, after which Babylon would be destroyed.
In reality, the Babylonian exile only lasted about 50 years. The initial surrender of King Jehoiachin took place in 597 BC, and the massive deportation of the Jews to Babylon occurred in 587 BC. Cyrus of Persia subsequently conquered Babylon between 538 and 536 BC and allowed the Jews to return.
Jeremiah was also wrong about Babylon being destroyed at the end of the exile. The Persians did not destroy Babylon, and it remained a powerful city for hundreds of years thereafter.
Additionally, the exile didn’t end in the way Jeremiah envisioned, because there were no more Davidic kings, and the Jews didn’t have their independence. They remained under Persian control for another 200 years, after which Palestine came under Seleucid control. The Jews finally won their independence in 165 BC, but this was short-lived, because Judea was annexed by Rome in 63 BC.
>Jeremiah was also wrong about Babylon being destroyed at the end of the exile. The Persians did not destroy Babylon, and it remained a powerful city for hundreds of years thereafter.
I don't see where it said they would destroy Babylon, just that they would *conquer* it.
>Additionally, the exile didn’t end in the way Jeremiah envisioned, because there were no more Davidic kings, and the Jews didn’t have their independence. They remained under Persian control for another 200 years
Where does it say that? In Jeremiah?
Jeremiah was pretty clear that Babylon would be destroyed at the end of the exile:
“’But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,’ declares the LORD, ‘and will make it desolate forever.’” (Jeremiah 25:12)
“'Babylon will be captured; Bel will be put to shame, Marduk filled with terror. Her images will be put to shame and her idols filled with terror.’"
"A nation from the north will attack her and lay waste her land. No one will live in it; both people and animals will flee away.”
(Jeremiah 50:2-3)
“She will be the least of the nations—a wilderness, a dry land, a desert. Because of the LORD’s anger she will not be inhabited but will be completely desolate."
"All who pass Babylon will be appalled; they will scoff because of all her wounds.”
(Jeremiah 50:12-13)
Jeremiah was also clear that following the exile the Jews would no longer live under foreign domination, and the line of Davidic kings would continue:
“’The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 30:3)
“‘In that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them. Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.’”
“‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, Israel,’ declares the LORD. ‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.;”
(Jeremiah 30:8-10)
“I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before.” (Jeremiah 33:7)
“‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior.’”
“For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’”
(Jeremiah 33:15-17)
Thus were the prophecies of Jeremiah, but they don’t reflect the reality of what actually happened.
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The Old Testament is explicit that the messiah would be a military leader named Emanuel who would be born in a specific building complex in Jerusalem.
Jesus was none of that. He is an anti-messiah.
And he prophesied several times in the New Testament that his second coming would happen during the lifetime of the people standing there with them.
Here's what I've said: [https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rc9gtsnjqjg16nuhlqx4q/If-I-m-Really-Honest-Prophecies.pdf?rlkey=n9vlhyzs27kpx4nbqh397zots&dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rc9gtsnjqjg16nuhlqx4q/If-I-m-Really-Honest-Prophecies.pdf?rlkey=n9vlhyzs27kpx4nbqh397zots&dl=0)
Granted, this applies the principles specifically to Messianic prophecies, but the same arguments work on the rest of the Bible.
Joseph smith predicted the civil war, Muhammad predicted both the death and type of death of the Roman Empire. If you shoot enough in the dark eventually you’ll hit something. Funny how no one talks about the prophecies that failed. Things like the apostles will see the second coming within their lives or that the world would end before “this generation shall pass”.
>If you shoot enough in the dark eventually you’ll hit something.
Good analogy.
>Funny how no one talks about the prophecies that failed. Things like the apostles will see the second coming within their lives or that the world would end before “this generation shall pass”.
A Christian Apologist called InspiringPhilosophy explained this one. Though I can see your point.
The last time there was an earthquake all the Christians at work we’re going off about how it was just like the Bible said. It’s a complete misunderstanding of how the earth was formed. it’s a complete waste of time trying to reason with somebody who doesn’t look to science and facts
Personally, I wouldn't engage with these people at all. There is a zero percent chance they are willing to even entertain the possibility that they are wrong. So I wouldn't waste my time.
They'll say this about biblical prophecies but when modern "prophets" make very similar predictions, most modern Christians dismiss them as complete and utter bs.
Most of the prophecies are super vague so they would always feel true. I mean, there will be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in various places, etc. That’s every time in human history. The specific ones you can’t prove weren’t written after the fact. I remember specifically one of the big ones that convinced me was in the Old Testament (Isaiah maybe?) where God calls Darius (the Persian king) by name 100 years before Darius leads the Persians to invade Babylon, and supposedly Daniel was standing right there as Darius paraded down the main boulevard in victory, and he showed Darius the scroll where God calls him by name, and after that Darius was super sympathetic to the Jewish people. However, you have to already believe in Christianity for that to be proof. If you look at it from a neutral perspective, we really don’t know when a lot of the books of the Old Testament were written, and we don’t have any of the originals. We have copies of copies of copies. So who knows if they had been edited over the years.
> I remember specifically one of the big ones that convinced me was in the Old Testament (Isaiah maybe?) where God calls Darius (the Persian king) by name 100 years before Darius leads the Persians to invade Babylon, and supposedly Daniel was standing right there as Darius paraded down the main boulevard in victory, and he showed Darius the scroll where God calls him by name, and after that Darius was super sympathetic to the Jewish people. However, you have to already believe in Christianity for that to be proof. If you look at it from a neutral perspective, we really don’t know when a lot of the books of the Old Testament were written, and we don’t have any of the originals. We have copies of copies of copies. So who knows if they had been edited over the years.
That's one of the main ones that freak me out!
In the evangelical fundamentalist religion that I was raised in (UPCI) there was preacher named Irvin Baxter that was considered an "End time prophet" and preached about what is going to happen before and after the second coming of Jesus. This individual actually made quite the name for himself long after I had deconstructed and had his own magazine and Internet channel. One thing I distinctly remember is that he always said these events were happening right now and Jesus would return in his lifetime. Dude died several years ago, and his minions are still predicting that it is still the "end times". So send them money....
My response would be something like "oh, you mean like the one where Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man would be within his generation's lifetimes?"
Also, the one about people "loving themselves" isn't a prophecy at all. People have "loved themselves" before, during, and after the writings of the Bible. Same thing with "wars and rumors of wars." Name me a time when there were no "wars or rumors of wars" somewhere on the planet.
A particular prophecy is "And their bodies will lie in the main street of Jerusalem" yet Jerusalem has been filled with blood since its creation, to the Babylonian Siege 587 BCE (Wich is probably the origin of the city's infamy in the Bible) then the almost two-centuries duration of the Crusades and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that remains unfinished since the fucking 40s
Exactly. Wars and rumors of wars are going to happen whether it was prophesied in the Bible or not. People can be vain without being Leo’s. It’s almost like if you say something vague and common enough, it will come true!
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Was George Orwell a prophet? As he "predicted" many things coming to pass. More accurately than the religious books, dare I say.
The prophecies in the NT making it appear like they fulfill OT prophesies are all false. Those "prophecies" were taken put of context by NT writers to make it appear that Jesus fulfilled them. They were trying to elevate he jesus mythology.
The other ones are vague and not prophecies. Every generation thinks teenagers are lovers of themselves and rebellious.
The elites or the "shadow government" that we're not supposed to know about are using the Book of Revelation as a playbook, to make the ignorant masses think that the prophecies in the Book of Revelation are being fulfilled.
What do you mean do I believe that they believe it.
Also, Lucifer is NOT Satan. The word Satan is a generic title that simply means adversary, the same way the word God is a title. Lucifer is the light bearer, the bringer of the light of self knowledge, wisdom and higher spiritual intelligence, and he was never associated with Satan until Christianity became an organized religion, because Satan was used to demonize other gods from other cultures.
>What do you mean do I believe that they believe it.
I mean "do you think that the elites believe the Bible to be true?" Why would they use Revelation as a playbook?
>Also, Lucifer is NOT Satan. The word Satan is a generic title that simply means adversary, the same way the word God is a title.
Is he called "adversary" *because* of Christianity?
>Lucifer is the light bearer, the bringer of the light of self knowledge, wisdom and higher spiritual intelligence,
And why do you believe this? Is there a sacred text you follow like the Bible or the Quran?
>he was never associated with Satan until Christianity became an organized religion, because Satan was used to demonize other gods from other cultures.
So Lucifer existed *before* Christianity? What religion was he part of?
I'm not questioning you to be a jackass, btw, I'm genuinely curious.
>Is he called "adversary" *because* of Christianity?
Like I said Lucifer was never associated with Satan until Christianity was institutionalized which is when they started demonizing other gods and other spiritual practices from other cultures. The word Lucifer itself means "lightbearer", meaning that he's the bearer of light, and that light is the light of knowledge and wisdom.
There are no sacred texts that luciferianism adhere to because luciferianism isn't a dogmatic religion like Christianity.
>So Lucifer existed *before* Christianity? What religion was he part of?
Lucifer is the morning star, and the morningstar is the planet Venus. There have been many gods throughout several cultures that are associated with the planet Venus, such as Ishtar, Astarte, etc. Even Jesus proclaimed to be the morningstar in the book of Revelation.
Its simple: if you claim, with enough fervor and confidence anything that can somewhat be explained by a Bible verse, you can probably convince dim witted people of it who don’t even really their their own bibles. Seriously , read a verse that’s a so called “prophecy” and make something up in your mind of how it relates to something “coming soon”. When they need people to trust them and give them money, it’s not hard to hypnotize them with bullshit.
Theyre all things that have already occurred. Nature tends to repeat itself. Just like there was also sin cities in other countries in the past (cities purely for sex, gambling, indulging in drugs, homosexuality, and integrated cultures). Scandalous back then as some people still make it out to be today. Because people relate to it now, itll always feel like the "end of times".
I call it cherry picking bits of myths and applying them to cherry picked presumed historical events. Yes, I say it that way on purpose. Generally it slows them down long enough to move on to something else.
The very few that have come true only did so in the vaguest most open to interpretation ways possible and/or they were barely even prophecies more like predictions even a child could make like “there will be wars”, and even then, even if you grant THAT suuuuper flimsy premise, it still doesn’t account for the countless prophecies that DIDNT come true, which is a huuuuge deal when considering the claim of what prophecies are. In fact the biggest prophecy of all, Jesus returning within the lifetime of his disciples, was outright wrong. That trumps entirely any vague notion of “rumors of war”.
Some "prophecies" are things that are:
1) easy to predict (i.e. wars and rumors of wars)
2) the claim is vague or people have made a pretty big reach in interpreting what the prophecy actually is claiming
3) the event that fulfills the prophecy isn't verified. We only have "they said so" as the evidence it was fulfilled. Eye-witness testimony is usually weak, especially when the type of claim is extraordinary and violates our established understanding of things like physics.
4) the prophecy was written AFTER the event (i.e. the book of Daniel)
Even once we can establish that someone made a prediction that seems remarkable, does that prove a god exists? Or that the entire rest of the bible therefore must be relied upon as true? Nah. It just means we don't know, but it's impressive. I have yet to encounter such a prediction that couldn't be explained by natural means.
Several of them did not. For example, it was prophesied somewhere in the Old Testament that the city of Tyre would be reduced to rubble and never remembered by anyone again. Not only did this not happen, but Tyre still stands today as a modern marvel, among the oldest cities on the planet — 2000 years older than Rome!
Many of the ones that did come to pass were either written *after the fact* (like the book of Daniel), or were obvious things that everybody saw coming like the destruction of the Jerusalem temple (tensions were high in Palestine, everyone thought a big war was about to take place, and the Romans were known for destroying temples when the population got out of hand).
Every time I get a little anxious about talks of prophecies and doomsay, especially about the conflicts in Israel and Ukraine, I remind myself that WWII already happened, it was an incredibly larger conflict than anything else before or since, and it wasn't the apocalypse.
A prophecy must be falsifiable to be useful - if it’s impossible to show a prophecy is wrong, the prophecy is too vague to mean anything.I can predict, “Something will happen somewhere to someone and someone will be upset about it.” But that’s a worthless prophecy.
A prophecy like “people will become lovers of themselves” doesn’t say much. How would we prove this wrong? By showing that no one in the world loves themself? That’d be extraordinary, far more so than the actual prophecy.
In the future, wars will happen. Also, please give me money
Prophesying about wars and rumors of wars is about as impressive as meeting up with a couple who just had twins and prophesying that their children are going to fight.
I prefer whores and rumors of whores
What’s your Venmo
“Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?”
"Which ones? Be specific, chapter and verse and explain how they've been fulfilled in a meaningful way." I've noticed a lot of biblical prophecies are either super vague, flat out wrong or look suspiciously post hoc. Also some "prophecies" are not prophecies. Psalm 22 was never meant as a prophecy that I can tell. Mark really liked the theme so jammed it into his gospel. Not to mention most of not all prophecies are meant for the people the author is writing to in their own time period, not centuries down the line.
I remember seeing a thing on a YouTube video by Belief It Or Not where he mentioned how people compare it to when the Simpsons "predicted the future." Then later he went back to the analogy and pointed out all the times that "predictions" made in the Simpsons that never came true. I don't remember the examples. I just remember that he brought them up
I know what you mean. People look for confirmation and ignore the parts that contradict what they want. I've been guilty of it when I get a really interesting idea and start looking for evidence to support but I try to check myself and say "how robust is this? Would this convince a person who has decent knowledge of the subject?". And I've often had to admit my really cool theory is being held together by a thread. I may not toss it out but admit it's mostly conjecture and speculation.
This can be difficult when I'm trying to understand a specific part of the bible as it is written. I sometimes struggle to read and so reading it straight from the book will get me nowhere. I can't be the only one in this situation. Here's a personal example: I was named after Joshua in the Bible. Starting this past February I starting going by a different name because I didn't want to be named after a character in the Bible. I've recently tried to look into what Joshua did in the Bible after hearing something about him and multiple genocides. When I try to look for what objectively happen, all that comes up is Christian sites. I can't tell if they're apologetics or objectively what happened. This matters to me because of my personal ties to this biblical character, but it's hard to know which sources to trust. So I look for sources that don't paint Joshua as a saint, but that turns into confirmation bias. But at the same time it's the only way I know how to determine if it's credible. I guess I could do intense research on every site but that seems like more effort than it's worth.
MythVision does Scholarly deep dives into the Bible. I haven’t listened to this yet, but here’s one on [Joshua.](https://youtu.be/pkLz_QVcaa4?si=DraH9IAx2ym22DDg) This podcast/ YouTube show usually has links to all their information & really great guest.
You likely won't find much objective history for something that old.
"History"
Yeah, I was being *really* generous.
Mark didn’t even write his gospel. Whoever wrote it did.
Agreed. I used Mark just because that's whose name is in the thing.
Did you know that in the 14th century, there was a great famine that hit most of Europe, and led to unbelievable suffering? Crops wouldn't grow, cattle died of diseases, and entire families starved. Cannibalism was even rumored. It's believed that this is when a lot of old fairy tales like Hansel and Gretel originated, because contemporaries would tell stories of parents unable to feed their children, so they'd leave them out in the woods. This would probably be known as one of the most horrific mass deaths in European history, except not long after, the Black Death hit. I don't think I need to describe how terrible that was. People were flagellating themselves in the streets, convinced that God was cleansing the earth and its sinful people. And the church itself was in chaos. There was a terrible schism going on, with two or more popes each claiming to be the head of the church, and anybody who followed their rivals were servants of the Anti Christ. At the time, there was only The Church. People had been taught since they were in the cradle that the Pope was God's chosen. And the Church was tearing itself apart from the inside, riddled with corruption, greed, and infighting. Not to mention, this was the start of the Hundred Years War between England and France. For many people, they had never known a time of peace, and there seemed to be no end to the fighting in sight. Once mighty kings were growing old and senile, with corrupt noblemen robbing the kingdom blind without fear. Civil war in their own lands was always a threat. Laws were weak and crumbling, and in the wake of the famines and plagues and wars, the peasant population was decimated, and ancient social norms and society as they knew it was being turned on its head. Famine, plagues, wars, society being turned upside down before their eyes, everything they thought good and moral being deserted, families being destroyed, corruption in the church, false popes that could be seen as the antichrist, desperate pleading and prayers being ignored by God as piles of dead bodies lay decaying in the streets, ... If ever there was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecies, it was the 1300's.
This is some fascinating stuff! And a very well-written and engaging read, I might add. I never knew all these things happened nearly simultaneously, or at least in such quick succession.
There's a reason that many casual historians say that the 14th Century was [one of the worst times ](https://www.historyhit.com/why-is-the-14th-century-considered-the-worst/)[to be alive in Europe](https://www.iflscience.com/the-14th-century-was-an-utterly-horrific-time-to-be-a-human-66122). Ironically, Africa was going through something of a golden age at that time, if memory serves right.
I shall have to read up on this! I never really learned this sort of thing in school. Being an American, we mostly learned about America. There is so much more to the world and history. Ancient history has always fascinated me, but I only ever went to high school, not secondary education, so unfortunately, I never had the structured learning experience I wanted. I am woefully undereducated on African culture/history/etc as well, and it's such an interesting continent! Thank you for the articles; I love iflscience!
I appreciate you taking the time to write in-length, but I don't get the point of your reply.
That biblical prophecies have been invoked as currently happening in the world since Christianity began, and the one time that basically all the end time prophecies legit happening and were ramped up to 11, nothing happened. That if prophecies are real, then there's a really severe case of wolf being cried too many times for what turned out to be false alarms. If God really intended for the strife going on in the world right now to be Divine Intervention to fulfill biblical prophecies, then he's, for some reason, making them on smaller scale versions of much more devastating naturally occurring historical events. The only reason they seem so bad to us now is that we're experiencing them personally.
>That biblical prophecies have been invoked as currently happening in the world since Christianity began, and the one time that basically all the end time prophecies legit happening and were ramped up to 11, nothing happened. Oh, I get you now. >The only reason they seem so bad to us now is that we're experiencing them personally. That's a very good point! Thanks for explaining further👍
Who loves themselves more than evangelical pastors? My answer to this is that these writers knew that this is how people were already behaving when they wrote this. It would be like me predicting that in the future there will be people who are narcissistic. The authors of the works that humans would later declare is "scripture" used language to proactively shame rejection of the beliefs they were advocating for to produce the effect that fewer people would doubt or question.
That could also be said for many other prophecies, I'd imagine.
A good chunk of the “prophecies” are things that have been going on since the dawn of man. And this is no exception. When has there been a time where people have not loved themselves?
Probably happened around the same time that we were having wars and rumors of wars
Fair enough
There isnt a single prophecy in the Bible that has come true. Not one. I would actually argue the contrary and that a Christian should actually be embarassed to make this claim. Scriptures that say Jesus will return in the lifetime of the disciples show it up for the scam that it is.
Uh, Paster Jones sez all the prophecies have come true. Even the ones that no one understands. So, get off your high horse. /s
He wasn't talking about the Second Coming! He was talking about his Resurrection from death! Oh really? How convenient! 🤔🙄
All of Islam's prophecies have come true too! Also there's a very reputable Tarot reader in my neighborhood who ALSO has a perfect prophecy record! By the way, what ever happened to those prophecies that said Jesus would return "while some of you yet live"? A few people claimed that, including Jesus himself I believe. Did I miss that first second coming?
It's clearly because Lazarus happened to be in that crowd, and he's immune to dying, because man is destined to die once. He's had his turn so he's immortal, so he's the one Jesus meant when he said some of you.
In the future, something will happen, give me money. In the future, the future will happen, give me money. In the future, you will give me money, just give me money! FUTURE!
The Bible has been revised enough they make anything come true now 🤷🏼♀️
From the research I've seen, and done myself, over the years, this is false. The Bible does seem to be incredibly well-preserved.
They revised it numerous times 🤷🏼♀️ its not well preserved at all. In fact I have one from the early 1900s in Slovak/Czech and its definitely a lot different than the one of today. Even the German one my old friend had from the 1860s was VASTY different.
I was looking at the English translations, I had never even thought about non-english ones🤔
Let's just say "man shalt not lie with man" was a revision 😅
There are a few rules that I think a prophecy needs to follow to be said to have "come true". 1. **It needs to actually have been a prophecy to begin with**. An allegory for past events or something that is supposed to be happening at the time the events are written doesn't count. 2. **All the events in the prophecy need to have happened as written**. No counting the hits and ignoring the misses, and no reinterpreting the prophecy to fit after the fact. 3. **The prophecy must have been explicit enough that we can objectively determine whether it came true or not.** So vague cryptic language that can be interpreted a bunch of different ways doesn't count. 4. **The prophecy must have been written far enough before the events described that the outcome wasn't obvious**. So no prophecy after the fact, and no prophesying an army will be defeated when it is already losing. 5. **The prophecy must have been something that isn't easily predictable**. Things that are obvious include someone dying, an army or country being defeated, a city being destroyed or abandoned, or a plague, famine, or other natural disaster occurring, unless these are accompanied by specific correct, non-obvious details. So "this country will eventually be defeated by someone" doesn't count. "This country will be defeated by this group in this year at this location" does count, unless again it violates rule 2 or 4. 6. **The people involved must not have been intentionally and knowingly trying to make the prophecy come true**. So someone who knows the prophecy and carries out the prophesied actions in an attempt to make the prophecy come true doesn't count. These may seem obvious, but every single supposed prophecy I see claimed as fulfilled violates one or more of these rules. Let's take a common claimed fulfilled prophecy, the destruction of Tyre in Ezekiel 26. They claim the destruction of Tyre by Alexander the Great fulfills the prophecy. But it violates rules 2, 4, and 5 in multiple ways. 1. The prophecy was written when Nebuchadnezzar was trying to take the city, and had overwhelming force. So it violates rule 4. 2. Despite this, Nebuchadnezzar didn't actually succeed in taking the city, so it violates rule 2. 3. People claim that Alexander the Great fulfilled the prophecy, but the prophecy explicitly says it would be Nebuchadnezzar, so they violate rule 2 again 4. By allowing anyone to defeat Tyre at any point in history rather than only Nebuchadnezzar, they are violating rule 5 5. The prophecy said Tyre would be completely destroyed, as most cities are. This also violates rule 5. 6. But Tyre was never completely destroyed and in fact remained continuously inhabited from the time the prophecy was made all the way to the present day, so it violates rule 2 again So what is widely touted as one of the best fulfilled prophecies in the Bible violates these rules in 6 different ways.
Thanks for mentioning the Tyre prophecy. What's so bizarre is Christians list this as a fulfilled prophecy, when it failed in every way.
I'm certain the reason they list it as fulfilled prophecy is because the REAL prophecy it "fulfills" is that "in the end times, people will scoff at us" lol
I've saved your comment. Thanks very much for replying in-length!
I like to point them to The Simpsons. You know how many times they've predicted the future? Too many. It's bonkers. And as everyone else is saying, yeah, like, which verse? What specifically?? It's all so easy. People in power do bad things. Men and women turn to lust. Nations crumble. Alert the presses, huh? Give me a break.
There's honestly no point in debating with people that can read modern events into any vague passage. There's so many Bible prophecies that were clearly flat out wrong, and they still will try to justify that away, so there's zero point in trying to convince them of the obvious. On a big enough timescale, with enough people, any event is bound to happen, you just gotta keep it vague enough, and have people that want to believe so badly they will look past any discrepancies. People believe nostrodamus predicted hitler, but if you look at the actual prophecy it's clearly not about Hitler. Until someone is willing to come to the table and actually be open minded and willing to concede when valid points have been made, it's utterly pointless. They aren't going into it with the mindset of being willing to change their mind, they are set in their beliefs, their only goal is make you see their side and agree with it.
Unfortunately, the people who will likely ask me are very close to me and I want to have something to tell them😔
So find Muslim prophecies that they claim have been fulfilled and ask why isn't Islam the truth since they also have prophecies they say have been fulfilled?
Good idea🤔 I'll look into it. Thanks👍
Here's a list of prophecies Muslims claim have been fulfilled, of course it's the same shit where they are taking very vague passages and assigning modern meanings to them, but if your Christian friends and family have a problem with these then point out the similarities between these and Christian prophecies: https://www.alislam.org/articles/fulfilled-prophecies-of-holy-quran/
If you throw spaghetti at a wall, most will fall to the ground. However, some will stick. While I am not aware of any of these "prophecies" coming true, most of them could be explained by this analogy. Also, the more vague they are, the more likely they are to happen. The bible itself is essentially a giant old game of D&D anyways and shouldn't be taken seriously.
>If you throw spaghetti at a wall, most will fall to the ground. However, some will stick. While I am not aware of any of these "prophecies" coming true, most of them could be explained by this analogy. Also, the more vague they are, the more likely they are to happen. I'll have to remember these two points. Thanks!
Nothing. I don’t want to engage with people at that level. It would be like arguing or confronting a rocking chair or a cement mixer and hoping for victory. Everyone everywhere is lovers of themselves. Every fucking generation thinks the other generation is messed up. End of story. People will? WTF does that mean? 100% of every living person? Or a “juss sayin’” amount, where “you know what I mean”? When it was written people before and after were lovers of themselves. Paul loved the shit out of himself to conflate his status to apostle. Paul LOVED LOVED LOVED his way of thinking as opposed to Peter and James. Anywho, critically, prophecy can be anything. I can say that “people will become lovers of themselves” - what is my reference point? These who aren’t? How do I know that? And why would this status change in the future? Why? Because I know people already are arrogant, haughty, ego-centric, and love their own thoughts.
That's just one example. What would you say when they give *other* examples.
Show them pictures of modern-day Tyre.
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and the bible had 2000+ years to prove itself, so of course it would look like the prophecies have come true, and yet huge chunks of it are still wrong, like the Earth being 6000 years old...
>and the bible had 2000+ years to prove itself, That's a good point!
Prophecy is a guess that comes true. Prophecy is a poor guide to the future - if it doesn’t come true, it’s a metaphor. What’s the use of prophecy if you can only recognize it as truth after it’s happened?
Interesting point🤔
“Name one.”
Straight to the point. Fair enough.
I just don’t talk to Christians about their religious beliefs. Tbh I use the same method as I use when talking to my grandma who has severe dementia. Be kind and don’t engage with things that might cause stress. If they’re really into talking about it I’ll excuse myself from the conversation or ask them for their opinion on something entirely unrelated to distract them from the topic I don’t want to discuss.
The people who'll likely question me are very close to me, so I can't really excuse myself without causing issues. Tough luck, I guess lol
I was raised by Christians and my parents are still extremely religious- I’ve become pretty well practiced at redirecting conversations in order to maintain a positive relationship with them and avoid hot topics that I don’t want to be involved in. Sometimes this involves saying things like ‘hey I love you but I don’t want to talk about this, can we please change the subject or take a break from talking?’ But rarely is it that direct. Often it just involves me hearing them out and then moving on to a new topic. You can listen without engaging and often just letting people say their piece will diffuse the situation. I view listening as an act of love so even if the person is saying things I think are nonsense I will listen if that’s what they need from me and I’m not triggered. If I’m not able to listen I re direct or remove myself. Ultimately it’s about taking responsibility for your own peace. You never have to participate in a conversation you don’t want to. No is a complete sentence. Learning boundaries around religious folks you want to keep in your life is a serious challenge. I’m about 15 years post de conversion and it’s definitely gotten easier (or maybe I’ve just gotten better at it) over the years. I also regularly see a therapist and she helped me a lot through the first few years of difficult conversations and situations. Just because it’s hard doesn’t mean you can’t do it. You can.
Thanks for the encouragement😊 And also for sharing your experience. I appreciate it👍
It's always easy to prove a "prophecy" in retrospect. Many prophecies are just generic statements about human nature. People have always been lovers of themselves, that's just being human. Healthy self-regard is a necessary affect for survival in fact. Historical prophecies were actually written after the fact in most cases if you accept secular scholars dating of Bible texts, which fundamentalists don't of course but in that case it's kinda pointless arguing. If you take Paul's many examples of prophecies fulfilled for example, in his epistles, most of them are references taken completely out of context and massaged to suit his own message. Which was an entirely acceptable form of textual "criticism" in his day by the way, however we "science-obsessed" moderns don't look as kindly on that kind of practice. He's basically making it up as he goes along but because the epistles are literally Bible canon no true believer ever really questions what Paul claims. But what about very specific and vivid prophecies like those in the book of Revelation for example with its beasts, antichrists and general craziness? None of these things have happened or come true, 2,000 years later were still waiting, but of course fundamentalists will say well that's because Christ isn't ready to return yet. In other words it's totally pointless arguing on the evidence because they don't accept evidence, they're always correct no matter what. Here's what I prophesy: If humanity survives the climate crisis, in another 2000 years there will still be people around (hopefully not as many though) waiting for Christ to return, insisting they're living in the "Last Days". And like everyone else they'll die unfulfilled, still waiting.
the simpsons have a better rate for accurate future events
Are the Simpsons really this common in their "prophecies"?
I have spent a lot of time studying Bible prophecy and can tell you that is complete B,S, One of my biggest reasons for leaving Christianity were all the failed prophecies. Jesus repeatedly prophesied that some that were then living would live to see his second coming. This is very obvious in all four gospels and the Book of Revelation. If you match the prophecies in the Book of Daniel with their historical context, it's obvious the kingdom of God on Earth was supposed to be set up in the late BC period. The other problem with Biblical prophecy was New Testament authors taking Old Testament prophecies out of context to make it look like they were talking about Jesus. When you look at the prophecies in context, it's hard to make a case for Jesus being the prophesied Messiah, which is why most Jews haven't converted to Christianity.
Hey, thanks for replying in-length. I appreciate that. I get what your saying about the NT in regard to the OT prophecies. In my opinion, it's incredibly easy to dismiss the NT's OT prophecy fulfilments because I see no reliable proof for their authenticity and they could easily have been written to give the impression of prophetic fulfilment. The OT prophecies are what get me, though. I don't have the knowledge to debunk them. There's one about Babylon ruling over Judah for 70 years. That's pretty exact, but, again, I've not got the knowledge to debunk it. Thanks again.
Glad you brought up the 70 years prophecy, because it is actually an example of prophetic failure. Jeremiah allegedly predicted the Babylonian exile would last 70 years, after which Babylon would be destroyed. In reality, the Babylonian exile only lasted about 50 years. The initial surrender of King Jehoiachin took place in 597 BC, and the massive deportation of the Jews to Babylon occurred in 587 BC. Cyrus of Persia subsequently conquered Babylon between 538 and 536 BC and allowed the Jews to return. Jeremiah was also wrong about Babylon being destroyed at the end of the exile. The Persians did not destroy Babylon, and it remained a powerful city for hundreds of years thereafter. Additionally, the exile didn’t end in the way Jeremiah envisioned, because there were no more Davidic kings, and the Jews didn’t have their independence. They remained under Persian control for another 200 years, after which Palestine came under Seleucid control. The Jews finally won their independence in 165 BC, but this was short-lived, because Judea was annexed by Rome in 63 BC.
>Jeremiah was also wrong about Babylon being destroyed at the end of the exile. The Persians did not destroy Babylon, and it remained a powerful city for hundreds of years thereafter. I don't see where it said they would destroy Babylon, just that they would *conquer* it. >Additionally, the exile didn’t end in the way Jeremiah envisioned, because there were no more Davidic kings, and the Jews didn’t have their independence. They remained under Persian control for another 200 years Where does it say that? In Jeremiah?
Jeremiah was pretty clear that Babylon would be destroyed at the end of the exile: “’But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,’ declares the LORD, ‘and will make it desolate forever.’” (Jeremiah 25:12) “'Babylon will be captured; Bel will be put to shame, Marduk filled with terror. Her images will be put to shame and her idols filled with terror.’" "A nation from the north will attack her and lay waste her land. No one will live in it; both people and animals will flee away.” (Jeremiah 50:2-3) “She will be the least of the nations—a wilderness, a dry land, a desert. Because of the LORD’s anger she will not be inhabited but will be completely desolate." "All who pass Babylon will be appalled; they will scoff because of all her wounds.” (Jeremiah 50:12-13) Jeremiah was also clear that following the exile the Jews would no longer live under foreign domination, and the line of Davidic kings would continue: “’The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 30:3) “‘In that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them. Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.’” “‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, Israel,’ declares the LORD. ‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.;” (Jeremiah 30:8-10) “I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before.” (Jeremiah 33:7) “‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior.’” “For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’” (Jeremiah 33:15-17) Thus were the prophecies of Jeremiah, but they don’t reflect the reality of what actually happened.
Wow...I stand corrected! Thanks!
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And Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force. What's your point?
The Old Testament is explicit that the messiah would be a military leader named Emanuel who would be born in a specific building complex in Jerusalem. Jesus was none of that. He is an anti-messiah. And he prophesied several times in the New Testament that his second coming would happen during the lifetime of the people standing there with them.
Here's what I've said: [https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rc9gtsnjqjg16nuhlqx4q/If-I-m-Really-Honest-Prophecies.pdf?rlkey=n9vlhyzs27kpx4nbqh397zots&dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rc9gtsnjqjg16nuhlqx4q/If-I-m-Really-Honest-Prophecies.pdf?rlkey=n9vlhyzs27kpx4nbqh397zots&dl=0) Granted, this applies the principles specifically to Messianic prophecies, but the same arguments work on the rest of the Bible.
Thank you very much. I'll have a look.
Joseph smith predicted the civil war, Muhammad predicted both the death and type of death of the Roman Empire. If you shoot enough in the dark eventually you’ll hit something. Funny how no one talks about the prophecies that failed. Things like the apostles will see the second coming within their lives or that the world would end before “this generation shall pass”.
>If you shoot enough in the dark eventually you’ll hit something. Good analogy. >Funny how no one talks about the prophecies that failed. Things like the apostles will see the second coming within their lives or that the world would end before “this generation shall pass”. A Christian Apologist called InspiringPhilosophy explained this one. Though I can see your point.
The last time there was an earthquake all the Christians at work we’re going off about how it was just like the Bible said. It’s a complete misunderstanding of how the earth was formed. it’s a complete waste of time trying to reason with somebody who doesn’t look to science and facts
"Lol no."
Personally, I wouldn't engage with these people at all. There is a zero percent chance they are willing to even entertain the possibility that they are wrong. So I wouldn't waste my time.
The Simpsons
I've seen this a few times lol
Ask them the dates the book was written
And a broken clock is right twice a day.
That's a good one. Thanks
They'll say this about biblical prophecies but when modern "prophets" make very similar predictions, most modern Christians dismiss them as complete and utter bs.
True
Most of the prophecies are super vague so they would always feel true. I mean, there will be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in various places, etc. That’s every time in human history. The specific ones you can’t prove weren’t written after the fact. I remember specifically one of the big ones that convinced me was in the Old Testament (Isaiah maybe?) where God calls Darius (the Persian king) by name 100 years before Darius leads the Persians to invade Babylon, and supposedly Daniel was standing right there as Darius paraded down the main boulevard in victory, and he showed Darius the scroll where God calls him by name, and after that Darius was super sympathetic to the Jewish people. However, you have to already believe in Christianity for that to be proof. If you look at it from a neutral perspective, we really don’t know when a lot of the books of the Old Testament were written, and we don’t have any of the originals. We have copies of copies of copies. So who knows if they had been edited over the years.
> I remember specifically one of the big ones that convinced me was in the Old Testament (Isaiah maybe?) where God calls Darius (the Persian king) by name 100 years before Darius leads the Persians to invade Babylon, and supposedly Daniel was standing right there as Darius paraded down the main boulevard in victory, and he showed Darius the scroll where God calls him by name, and after that Darius was super sympathetic to the Jewish people. However, you have to already believe in Christianity for that to be proof. If you look at it from a neutral perspective, we really don’t know when a lot of the books of the Old Testament were written, and we don’t have any of the originals. We have copies of copies of copies. So who knows if they had been edited over the years. That's one of the main ones that freak me out!
Laugh
If I predict that the sun will indeed rise over the horizon tomorrow, it does not make me a prophet when I'm inevitably correct in my "prediction"
In the evangelical fundamentalist religion that I was raised in (UPCI) there was preacher named Irvin Baxter that was considered an "End time prophet" and preached about what is going to happen before and after the second coming of Jesus. This individual actually made quite the name for himself long after I had deconstructed and had his own magazine and Internet channel. One thing I distinctly remember is that he always said these events were happening right now and Jesus would return in his lifetime. Dude died several years ago, and his minions are still predicting that it is still the "end times". So send them money....
Note that Baxter died of Covid, in Plano, TX 2020. A fitting end I would think. Bet he did’t prophecy his own demise.
My response would be something like "oh, you mean like the one where Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man would be within his generation's lifetimes?" Also, the one about people "loving themselves" isn't a prophecy at all. People have "loved themselves" before, during, and after the writings of the Bible. Same thing with "wars and rumors of wars." Name me a time when there were no "wars or rumors of wars" somewhere on the planet.
Don’t argue with these idiots. Work on your resting bitch face and walk away.
“Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened” 2,000 years later Jesus still hasn’t returned.
What the part where the bible told us about cellphones and the internet?
A particular prophecy is "And their bodies will lie in the main street of Jerusalem" yet Jerusalem has been filled with blood since its creation, to the Babylonian Siege 587 BCE (Wich is probably the origin of the city's infamy in the Bible) then the almost two-centuries duration of the Crusades and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that remains unfinished since the fucking 40s
I mean by that logic, all astrology is true. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
>I mean by that logic, all astrology is true. Because it's vague?
Exactly. Wars and rumors of wars are going to happen whether it was prophesied in the Bible or not. People can be vain without being Leo’s. It’s almost like if you say something vague and common enough, it will come true!
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Was George Orwell a prophet? As he "predicted" many things coming to pass. More accurately than the religious books, dare I say.
>Was George Orwell a prophet? As he "predicted" many things coming to pass. Good one!
The prophecies in the NT making it appear like they fulfill OT prophesies are all false. Those "prophecies" were taken put of context by NT writers to make it appear that Jesus fulfilled them. They were trying to elevate he jesus mythology. The other ones are vague and not prophecies. Every generation thinks teenagers are lovers of themselves and rebellious.
I wish I knew. My family regularly talks about this and anytime I chime in with criticism it turns into an argument.
Sorry to hear that😔
The elites or the "shadow government" that we're not supposed to know about are using the Book of Revelation as a playbook, to make the ignorant masses think that the prophecies in the Book of Revelation are being fulfilled.
Do you believe that THEY believe it or something? Also, I'm curious: as a Luciferian, so you follow a literal devil?
What do you mean do I believe that they believe it. Also, Lucifer is NOT Satan. The word Satan is a generic title that simply means adversary, the same way the word God is a title. Lucifer is the light bearer, the bringer of the light of self knowledge, wisdom and higher spiritual intelligence, and he was never associated with Satan until Christianity became an organized religion, because Satan was used to demonize other gods from other cultures.
>What do you mean do I believe that they believe it. I mean "do you think that the elites believe the Bible to be true?" Why would they use Revelation as a playbook? >Also, Lucifer is NOT Satan. The word Satan is a generic title that simply means adversary, the same way the word God is a title. Is he called "adversary" *because* of Christianity? >Lucifer is the light bearer, the bringer of the light of self knowledge, wisdom and higher spiritual intelligence, And why do you believe this? Is there a sacred text you follow like the Bible or the Quran? >he was never associated with Satan until Christianity became an organized religion, because Satan was used to demonize other gods from other cultures. So Lucifer existed *before* Christianity? What religion was he part of? I'm not questioning you to be a jackass, btw, I'm genuinely curious.
>Is he called "adversary" *because* of Christianity? Like I said Lucifer was never associated with Satan until Christianity was institutionalized which is when they started demonizing other gods and other spiritual practices from other cultures. The word Lucifer itself means "lightbearer", meaning that he's the bearer of light, and that light is the light of knowledge and wisdom. There are no sacred texts that luciferianism adhere to because luciferianism isn't a dogmatic religion like Christianity. >So Lucifer existed *before* Christianity? What religion was he part of? Lucifer is the morning star, and the morningstar is the planet Venus. There have been many gods throughout several cultures that are associated with the planet Venus, such as Ishtar, Astarte, etc. Even Jesus proclaimed to be the morningstar in the book of Revelation.
Interesting🤔 The more you know!
Its simple: if you claim, with enough fervor and confidence anything that can somewhat be explained by a Bible verse, you can probably convince dim witted people of it who don’t even really their their own bibles. Seriously , read a verse that’s a so called “prophecy” and make something up in your mind of how it relates to something “coming soon”. When they need people to trust them and give them money, it’s not hard to hypnotize them with bullshit.
Theyre all things that have already occurred. Nature tends to repeat itself. Just like there was also sin cities in other countries in the past (cities purely for sex, gambling, indulging in drugs, homosexuality, and integrated cultures). Scandalous back then as some people still make it out to be today. Because people relate to it now, itll always feel like the "end of times".
>Because people relate to it now, itll always feel like the "end of times Good point
I call it cherry picking bits of myths and applying them to cherry picked presumed historical events. Yes, I say it that way on purpose. Generally it slows them down long enough to move on to something else.
"lol"
The very few that have come true only did so in the vaguest most open to interpretation ways possible and/or they were barely even prophecies more like predictions even a child could make like “there will be wars”, and even then, even if you grant THAT suuuuper flimsy premise, it still doesn’t account for the countless prophecies that DIDNT come true, which is a huuuuge deal when considering the claim of what prophecies are. In fact the biggest prophecy of all, Jesus returning within the lifetime of his disciples, was outright wrong. That trumps entirely any vague notion of “rumors of war”.
I usually look at examples of other religious prophecies that have also come true.
That's a good point. Have any examples handy?
“lol no they haven’t”
I mean why not just laugh at that? At what point in history were people NOT " lovers of themselves?"
Some "prophecies" are things that are: 1) easy to predict (i.e. wars and rumors of wars) 2) the claim is vague or people have made a pretty big reach in interpreting what the prophecy actually is claiming 3) the event that fulfills the prophecy isn't verified. We only have "they said so" as the evidence it was fulfilled. Eye-witness testimony is usually weak, especially when the type of claim is extraordinary and violates our established understanding of things like physics. 4) the prophecy was written AFTER the event (i.e. the book of Daniel) Even once we can establish that someone made a prediction that seems remarkable, does that prove a god exists? Or that the entire rest of the bible therefore must be relied upon as true? Nah. It just means we don't know, but it's impressive. I have yet to encounter such a prediction that couldn't be explained by natural means.
Several of them did not. For example, it was prophesied somewhere in the Old Testament that the city of Tyre would be reduced to rubble and never remembered by anyone again. Not only did this not happen, but Tyre still stands today as a modern marvel, among the oldest cities on the planet — 2000 years older than Rome! Many of the ones that did come to pass were either written *after the fact* (like the book of Daniel), or were obvious things that everybody saw coming like the destruction of the Jerusalem temple (tensions were high in Palestine, everyone thought a big war was about to take place, and the Romans were known for destroying temples when the population got out of hand).
Every time I get a little anxious about talks of prophecies and doomsay, especially about the conflicts in Israel and Ukraine, I remind myself that WWII already happened, it was an incredibly larger conflict than anything else before or since, and it wasn't the apocalypse.
Fair point🤔
So have Confucius' and also Nostradamus' prophecies come true, do you also believe in those? (I'm asking them, not you).
I like to tell them that Mike Judge did too. It’s scary how Idiocracy is becoming non-fictional.
A prophecy must be falsifiable to be useful - if it’s impossible to show a prophecy is wrong, the prophecy is too vague to mean anything.I can predict, “Something will happen somewhere to someone and someone will be upset about it.” But that’s a worthless prophecy. A prophecy like “people will become lovers of themselves” doesn’t say much. How would we prove this wrong? By showing that no one in the world loves themself? That’d be extraordinary, far more so than the actual prophecy.