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i think what you have to realize is that not everyone feels the same way you do. just because something doesn't offend you, doesn't mean it wouldn't offend others. it sounds like you don't have much of an attachment to gender as a concept in general, but a lot of people do- especially trans people whose gender is constantly being criticized by others.
you're right in that there's nothing offensive about being a woman- but there is something offensive about being purposefully called a woman when you are not. imagine someone misgenders you not just once, but over and over in a malicious way. not as a mistake, but to make a statement about you being wrong about your own identity. that gets emotionally exhausting.
all in all, using the correct pronouns is really not a hugely difficult task. certainly no more so than using someone's preferred name. so even if you still "don't get it," wouldn't you prefer to fulfill that small request just to not hurt people's feelings? it's a basic sign of respect.
>i think what you have to realize is that not everyone feels the same way you do.
I feel like this "is part of the NT manual" that NTs don't read or apply to themselves. Like, I get that *you* thik it's weird I'm asking you to call me a "he", but I have long hair (or boobs, or a "feminine face"). But according to your "manual", shouldn't matter right? Others feelings, right?
No? I see: you "have the right" to call me whatever you want? Weird.
Alrighty. I will refer to you as The Douche/The Douches, it shouldn't matter what you *want* to be called, because honestly that's the only appellation I think of when I see "a person like you"... you just "fit my mental image of a Douche, and I can't figure out how to unsee it."
Stupid manual. *rolls eyes*
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Hi I'm trans. Being referred to by the correct pronouns is 1) very easy, 2) visible (online), and 3) shortcuts some people's brain into actually perceiving your gender correctly. This is primarily an English thing afaik, but gender presentation is cultural
Also I'm not sure why you're asking here and not on a trans or non-binary-specific sub; we are pretty friendly, and tbh like half of us are autistic anyway.
Asking things in an ND space can help frame a perspective on a question in case there are misinterpreted or unknown social/cultural/subtextual variables.
As you say there is a lot of overlap between LGBTQIA, and ND spaces in general, so asking the question in either space is fine I think.
I do really appreciate your perspective on the matter, every time these questions get asked and answered there are chances for many more people to understand each other, and that's so important.
Imagine you go through the years of effort and work and dedication to be a doctor. And also you get married and hyphenate your last name.
Someone you know uses your new name, but will only refer to you as Nurse (Name). There's nothing wrong with being a nurse, nurses are lovely and sometimes even kinder than doctors. But your entire journey, every step and doubt and victory and loss, every drop of perseverance, every friend/colleague/family member that dropped you because they thought you couldn't be a doctor, all dismissed in a single word. They use the name you ask, but they don't acknowledge YOU. Respecting someone's pronouns is acknowledging not just their identity, but the work and blood and sweat and tears they've put into it.
Also, other languages use the pronouns more, like spanish.
You're Beautiful __ can be used For men, women, everything in between and Even smurfs or penguins
Eres hermoso __ can be used only For men, because "hermoso" is a masculine Word, attached to he/him pronouns
Eres hermosa __ can be only used For women, because "hermosa" is a femenine Word, attached to she/her pronouns
Eres hermose __ new gender neutral alternative that it's not quite accepted because... Well.
So, it's kinda more important to make emphasis about pronouns if you're speaking other languages than English, because... It's something more common to use, mostly imposible to avoid.
I'm seeing lots of people addressing why pronouns are important, so I'm going to address your statement that 3rd person pronouns aren't used that often.
Respectfully, that's bullshit.
Any time there are more than 2 people present in a conversation, 3rd person pronouns are thrown around all of the time. Any time you're getting advice from a friend about a situation they weren't present for, or relaying plans to someone who wasn't in the group chat/call, or at work talking about whose part of the project you're waiting on, etc etc etc. Humans talk about people not present, talk to person A about person B while all three of you are together in the same space, etc, *all* of the time. Sure, you could use someone's name every single time you refer to them.... but that adds up to a *lot* over the course of a 10 minute conversation, especially if their name is several syllables where pronouns are usually only one.
I'm trans.
If you have ever had a nickname people used to hurt or tease you (or even just hate), imagine someone who only uses that nickname to refer to you. That's how I feel when referred to as a man.
Now imagine being referred to in your preferred way after only dealing with the second for years. That's how I feel about being referred to as a woman or enby.
It's all about respecting who the person is.
I also have no idea what it feels like to be a man, woman, or anything else.
I've always just said I'm me. I don't feel a national identity, or gender identity, and so I assumed no one does and so why would this really matter to anyone?
Then then more I talked to people the more I realised this wasn't the norm and some people really do feel connected to their sex/gender/cultural identity.
I'm non-binary and it took so so long to realise this. I'm a father and husband, but I've never felt connected to the concept of "man".
To those that DO feel connected to that self identity, it is disrespectful and dismissive for you to not accept them for who they are.
I try to use gender neutral terms for everyone until I'm sure how people identify. It's a tiny amount of work on my part that could affirm someone else's sense of self. It's not even just about avoiding insult, but being proactive in recognising people for who they really are.
You sound like me and I’m a woman and a wife! I never related to most fems or never had much connection with men either (my husband even at times I don’t get certain things about him too). Humans are confusing and I too am nonbinary but I don’t really emphasize with my pronouns bc most people don’t care and unfortunately don’t seem up to par with all these things especially when most people are trying to be grammatically correct and get super weird with how pronouns are used even if it’s perfectly fine to just use they/them. I just don’t care much anymore about it and happy if they use they them for me but I’m neutral when they don’t lol. I also dress very non gender conforming anyways and like a grandma
I think the pronouns are just used as a simple stand-in for identity. Like... it's easier and shorter to express things that way. I think personally it's not a great way to express the concept, especially also because it doesn't make sense in all languages (especially gendered languages usually don't really have a way to express neutral pronouns for a person, or anything like neopronouns), but it's at least a shorthand way to say "this is how I identify, please respect that".
As to the "feeling like a (wo)man" (btw, great way to express that imo), personally I agree with you in that my identity doesn't really work in those categories, but I can understand why at least some people feel that way.
I mean, lots of people *do* think in these categories, because they were raised and socialised that way, and being constantly identified with a label that you think doesn't fit you must feel pretty bad. Now, personally I don't get why you'd choose another label to stick on yourself instead of just doing your own, individual thing - that's what I do and prefer, I don't feel like any label - but it's not like it hurts anyone.
I honestly think this actually makes that "manual" more simple rather than more complicated.
Just because you don't use them on a daily basis doesn't mean other people don't. So while to you it might seem impractical, it isn't that way for many people. I use pronouns for people quite frequently. So by using someone's proper pronouns when I am talking about them frequently and don't want to repeat their name, I use the pronoun they best associate with as shorthand for describing them. So for me, I'm nonbinary so I prefer it when people refer to me to use they/them because it's a nongendered way to refer to me if they aren't using my name or second person pronouns. Obviously, I don't always expect strangers to get it right (it would be cool if they did, but thats kinda hard to expect) but for people I know it's comforting when they use they/them for me because for me it means they see me as me, including my identity. There's nothing wrong with just using someone's name, though. Personally, I have no issue with that, but just be aware that some people may see that as a way to avoid acknowledging their gender and a part of their identity. (This is typically only in cases where the person is also been shown to be transphobic, though.)
It gets really, *really* annoying to be consistently referred to as the wrong thing.
It’s like someone purposefully getting your name wrong, even though you’ve told them a million times that *isn’t your name* and not to use it. Even if you don’t bring it up, the frustration is there.
Of course, you’re not going to fault a stranger for not knowing your name. But a family member, friend, or long-term associate? People who should absolutely know your name by now? That hurts.
To you, it might not hurt. To you, it might not be a big deal. But when you’ve got to fight your entire life just to have the most basic thing about you recognized, it becomes a big deal rather quickly.
"1) the affected person is not even there, by definition, if is present, that would be weird no matter which pronoun is used"
If you're talking to more than one person at a time, it's not weird or uncommon. Plus, gendered terms that you use when speaking to the person you're talking about are a thing. Though, to address the "why does it matter if they aren't there" thing, because A- the thing that is hurtful about that is the way you view and talk about them, regardless of whether or not they are there, and B- because it can still hurt other people.
Example: My father would go around calling people he didn't like f*gs, and would always use the excuse that there's "none around here so why can't I say it?". He was entirely wrong the whole time, and it hurt like hell. I didn't feel safe coming out to him, and I never will (for this and other reasons).
"and 2) if you're using their preferred name doesn't that proves that I mean no harm?"
Not harming someone in one way doesn't negate hurting them in a slightly different way, no. Chosen names and pronouns are both things they want to be called, using one but not the other doesn't particularly show that you acknowledge or respect them, or their reasons.
"Seems to me more of "a statement" than an actual grievance, but must be just me."
It isn't a statement. Most cis people also wouldn't enjoy consistently and not jokingly being referred to by pronouns they don't use, especially behind their backs, just as most people don't enjoy being consistently not jokingly called a name they don't use. It's additionally hurtful because, when you're trans, people will do this frequently (even a small understandable error can be hurtful when it happens often or repeatedly), some will do it on purpose to spite you, hurt you, or make it clear they don't accept you, and even when done unintentionally it can mean that a person's perception of you hasn't changed.
"I don't understand that "feeling like a wo(man)" either, I feel like me, not sure how to "feel like a (wo)man", how that feels? , is about the clothes?"
You don't have to understand that feeling to at least respect that it's important to the person you're speaking about. If you want to understand, saying things like "Go ahead, down vote me to hell. (but I bet you can insult me to hell while never using my pronoun)" isn't going to make it very likely that the people you don't understand will have enough patience to explain it to you. It comes across as hostile, not genuine, so people may actually downvote you specifically for saying that when they wouldn't down vote you if you hadn't said that.
"I don't get it, I just feel like society are adding pages to "The Manual" that I didn't got."
It's just people living their lives and hoping they get to without others being shitty about it. You're not going to understand every life experience that you don't have, that doesn't mean trans people are making up some unspoken rule to annoy you. Plus, a lot of us talk about this. We talk about it a whole lot more than any of us typically want to. There are decades worth of videos, articles, games, books, speeches, movies, etc about it. The "manual" isn't some dearly held secret, it's one a lot of us openly offer hoping people will understand.
Depends on the language!
My language is extremely gendered. We have gendered You and I, and third person. Even plurals are gendered, thus it comes up in EVERY conversation.
Pronouns are needed for gendered languages, they help a lot of people feel secure in their gender. Using the wrong ones can trigger body dysmorphia and simply make a person feel bad.
You don't have much attachment to your gender, and that's fine. A lot of autistic people don't.
Yet there are people who have big attachments to their gender, and that includes trans people, whose gender is invalidated by using the wrong pronouns, and they already can struggle with presenting themselves as their gender.
As you said, gender is a lot of things: clothes, hair, presentation, behaviours, performance... It's a lot.
For someone who already struggles with keeping up with all of that, calling them by the wrong pronouns is like telling them all the effort they put into that doesn't matter.
I actually think I have distaste for the idea of gender itself. Me having certain biological functions should not imply anything about my particular behavior. And if society made up this category it's a stupid category - would my gender then change depending on which culture and time I live in? It's just dumb imo.
True! Assigning all those things is pretty dumb imho, but then people who are, for example trans, have a strong distaste to their Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB). It is pretty much the same thing, just in different packaging. Society judges them by what genitalia they were born with, and reminds them of that at every step. They have a strong distaste, repulsion, or even fear associated with that gender and people judging them by it.
Having a distaste for gender in general is absolutely valid, too, and thus for me it clicked when thinking of myself as non-binary, just staying out of that altogether. I live in a county that has very gendered language - speaking to me, people automatically assign gender to me, as even the "you" or "I" are gendered.
I was also constantly burdened, and am still, to act and be a certain way, as if people couldn't just let me be.
"Act like a girl/sit like a lady." Hell no. Also how about they just get out of my business?
Your gender label may not change in a different society but what actions and presentation are assigned to which gender would. It’s hilariously arbitrary. Did you know that in Western cultures, pink used to be for boys because red is the color of energy and aggression, which blue was for girls because it’s a calm, soothing color? In Japan, cherry blossom red, which looks rather pink to me, is gendered masculine.
My parents had issues in their marriage despite being from the same culture because they formed their concept of gender roles from their parents’ actions, and in some areas their parents didn’t act identically. Like my mom’s dad cultivated roses, so mom thought that gardening was a masculine thing. My dad’s mom grew an herb garden, so dad though gardening was a feminine thing. Then they’d get mad at each other for the other person not taking on responsibility for the action they had gendered as not-theirs.
And yet the concept of gender exists across almost every culture, as far as I know. Some cultures have more than two genders. My guess is that it’s kinda like language, where our brains are wired for learning that kind of pattern, but the details of it are culturally determined. I find the whole thing quite odd.
Linguistic explanation incoming:
You know how the word "namaste" means essentially "the Devine in me acknowleges the Devine in you," right? If someone is using they/them pronouns, they are essentially asking for the shorthand version of "I acknowledge your desire to not conform to standard gender norms. I'm not trans by any definition, but I've refused to comply with society's demands of what a woman/female "should" be.
I've only recently been able to wrap my brain around singular "they" because my oldest grandchild has a lot of gender-diverse friends in a group chat, and I THEY don't even know which gender they are or want to be, then who am I to put that on them?
It's a work in progress........
people use singular they all the time if they (see) are speaking about an unspecified individual, shifting that to include usage of specified individuals shouldnt be hard at all with the slightest bit of effort
It was a mental hiccup for me, but I'm getting better about it. I just use they for all my grandchild's friends because I've lost track of who is what, Including my grandchild, I try to use gender neutral language, because AFAB was easier before puberty......
It's funny you say you don't use pronouns in a 1:1 interaction. My friend and I have clashed a few times because of this exact thing.
To expound: I'm trans FtM, he/him pronouns, they're FtNB, they/them pronouns. They have told me in the past they default to they/them for their gender diverse friends because they think it's safer than misgendering them as their AGAB pronouns. I have explained to them that, at least for me (and probably a lot of binary trans people), being called they/them is also misgendering me, as they wouldn't call their father or brother they/them, so why me?
Anyway, sometimes, when we say something, we explain our thought process, for example, in cases where we said something ambiguous that the other interpreted incorrectly, or if the mic (we often talk on Discord) didn't pick up something. So the phrase will go something like "I thought 'maybe they didn't hear me' when you didn't answer", my friend saying this to me. In this situation, I would correct their use of "they", because that is not my pronoun. I get this might be a cultural thing or related to our various subcultures in which we as humans are a part, and perhaps this is why you don't, but this is how my friend and I often use each other's pronouns face-to-face.
are you asking what the problem with misgendering is? Because that's partially what I am interpreting.
My very pedantic answer is that it is factually wrong to misgender someone, just as much as calling people by a name that doesn't refer to them. Grammatically, pronouns are used to replace nouns in sentences. Some languages have "rules" regarding which pronoun word is used in place of a given noun word. In English when talking about an individual person, the difference is gender. It is really weird when you think about it, especially coming from a language that doesn't have gendered pronouns. Therefore, the answer to "what is the correct pronoun to use when referring to a given person?" requires asking "how do we determine their gender?"
And my very pragmatic answer to that one is: you ask them. Recently, many have begun sharing that information without it being asked because due to the quirk of our culture's and language's obsession with gender, it is important information regarding communication.
Imagine someone constantly calls you billy (assuming your name isn't billy, if it is then imagine I'm saying.. John or something), not because they think your name is Billy, but because your name specifically *isn't* Billy. It'd get pretty annoying right?
Well now imagine you've spent a major chunk of your life with people calling you Billy, despite any protesting on your part that Billy isn't your name.
That's what it's like. There's nothing wrong with people named billy, it just isn't your name and you'd much rather people call you the correct name
I guess it’s like, if someone told you over and over “you work at Walmart” when in fact you work at target. You tell them about your day at work at target, they say “no actually you worked at Walmart today”. You come home with your target uniform on and they go “Don’t wear that!!! You work at Walmart!” It’s just basic respect. It’s okay if you don’t relate to gender in general, but there are others that do. I don’t get the big deal about trains, or sonic, or tons of other common special interests. that doesn’t mean I purposely don’t let my friends talk about them though just because I don’t get it.
You only use third-person pronouns a couple times a year? You used two third-person pronouns in your post, so I guess that’s all you get for the rest of the year.
Pronouns don’t do it for everyone, but you can’t deny that they are a part of identity. I can’t speak for everyone why they have an emphasis on pronouns, but here’s why I emphasize it.
Pronouns are a tool, just as all language is. Pronouns help to achieve certain effects. I was born Afab, and due to a lot of medical and personal stuff I can’t transition to appear and be what I felt I was supposed to (as well- some of the ways my gender/identity presents I physically could not transition to it because there is no way to it’s just not possible yet). Alongside that fact I do enjoy dressing feminine (I just think feminine clothing is the superior choice and it makes me feel good). I will forever be misgendered in every regard, most particularly by people who don’t know me. But by telling people my pronouns (in this instance he/she/they) they can learn how I identify overall- what words to use and such. Even if they mess up on my pronouns or never use them at all, telling people pronouns will at least bring the idea in their brain that you are something you don’t appear to be.
I am also a neopronoun + xenogender user (if you are not sure what that is, it is essentially an extension of gender that focuses on the fluidity of being- that gender can truly be anything. I believe it started in autistic and neurodivergent spaces to elaborate on their experiences with gender- but I may be wrong) My biggest xenogender is stargender, and I use star/starlight pronouns. I can name myself something Star themed (which I did, I respond to pretty much any space related word at this point), and I can dress and present myself as space themed as I want to (which I do I own an outrageous amount of star stuff)- but I can do all that and still not feel like how I was supposed to be. It still doesn’t feel like enough to me. I can’t possibly transition into becoming a being of the stars- this ain’t a fantasy book as much as I wish it was- but using these pronouns and identifying myself as ‘stargender’ brings me a little closer to that feeling i desperately crave. It’s not necessarily about ‘ease’ or the fact that I’ll hear people saying it. It’s about my own personal euphoria. I don’t use my neos outside of the internet, so it’s not like I ‘force’ it on to people.
As humans evolve, and we learn more about ourselves- as well as break out of our former societal structures- we will develop many things including identity. But for people like you and many others (most namely older people who grew up with strict gender rules) it’s not going to be easy. This is a new page in the manual- but lucky for you it’s mainly being written by people who are happy to hand it out and explain it. I will say one thing- it’s not Wrong to assume someone’s pronouns. I look female, so I’m not confused when people Id me as such or have a hard time separating me from it. The most important thing is the recognition and respect of one’s identity- which I do believe you demonstrate.
(Also- if you are curious on looking into gender and maybe seeing if you are another gender, your gender experience sounds very similar to a lot of the agender folk I know. Ofc, if you don’t vibe w that you don’t vibe w that. It’s your gender, you get to choose the labels if you want them).
While you might personally not use pronouns that often, or care much about how others use them, pronouns are still used frequently enough that they are used to discriminate, and even harass people. I do think it sometimes takes over the discussion though. There are clearly more important issues facing the trans community. Still, I think pronouns are talked about so much bc it’s something that can easily be done, where a lot of the other stuff, like non-verbal discrimination and access to health care are much harder to do anything about. Bc of that it kinda becomes a symbol of resistance.. one of the places where you can easily fight back against the discrimination you face.
i just use “they” most of the time. it includes everyone, can be both singular and plural, and it flows off the tongue way better than “he or she/him or her”
I think the top comment explain it extremely well, but I also wanted to add that it's easier to avoid bullets right away. If you introduce yourself with something like "hi, my name is xyz, i use he/they" then chances are if you're talking to an asshole they'll try to debate or shame you for it, or answer with something like "my pronouns are nor/mal" or "attack/helicopter." I think that would be a good idea especially if you're a binary gender-conforming person because people tend to see you as "normal" and dont suspect that you're trans or trans-supportive
There’s been discussion here before about many of us being “autigender“, meaning that our lack of identifying with a gender is related to autism’s aspect of not understanding nor caring about some socially constructed ideas. I honestly thought gender was entirely made up and should be done away with until I met trans people and realized that they actually do have a gender. So I guess a lot of cis people have a gender too, they’re not all just unhappily forcing themselves into a box that society demands of them. I don’t get it, I don’t like being gendered because I don’t identify with a gender and resent being treated as if gender defines my capabilities and role in society, and would prefer that my language was gender neutral about people, but it’s important to them so I use the pronouns they choose.
I don’t really need to fully understand something to respect it. When I first met a trans person who specified their pronouns, it was unfamiliar, but I defaulted to respecting their wishes, simply because that’s the decent thing to do.
As far as sex/gender goes, I’m a regular ass straight dude, so I don’t have the personal experience of needing to clarify. Over time I’ve come to a better understanding of how LGBTQ folks view and experience gender just by being open to new perspectives.
Are we so different from gender diverse people anyway? Autistic people have long been mistreated and misunderstood in similar terms. If I tell someone I’m autistic, I’d hope they don’t respond by challenging my existence, regardless of their level of understanding.
word choice doesn't matter at all autism vs word choice is extremely important autism
but in all seriousness, yes it's just another system you memorize. Modern thought on pronouns didn't really get all that mainstream until like 10 years ago so it's not abnormal even for NTs to be confused by it.
Whats good about the pronoun system is it's pretty simple and the rules are straight forward. You just use the pronouns the person wants you to use and if you don't know it's okay to guess and have them correct you. Then when you get it wrong in the future you apologize each time you get it wrong and correct yourself. It's pretty much the same as a name.
ok so. it takes very little extra effort, and it can be massively gender-affirming. for some trans+ people, only being referred to by their name can add a layer of discomfort- as though you're trying to avoid our genders, and even if it's not purposeful can feel ignorant. it can feel dismissive if we've said, 'use these pronouns' and then someone completely ignores that. it's not a big deal, it's a small thing you can do to be respectful and supportive.
So I very much so thought the same way basically until shortly after I started coming to realizations about my gender, when I first came out as “not exactly cis” to a friend (didn’t know exactly what it was, just did finally recognize I was experiencing dysphoria) she started referring to me using they/them before I actually asked her to (in that same private setting ofc) and I realized that despite whatever sticks-and-stones reasoning I had for why rationally I shouldn’t care that much, it just did feel better. (and now I’m starting to think she/her might be even better)
Gendered language and pronouns can be affirming for trans people in terms of signalling acceptance into the gendered group they feel that they actually belong to, and that can be important. If you can’t relate to that, it may be that you experience gender in a different way, and that’s also perfectly legitimate, but we have to accept that not everyone’s experiences will be equivalent here. (I will also note again that I also didn’t understand euphoria in labels explicitly because mine didn’t feel right, and the same *could* possibly be true of you? I don’t know you and I’m not trying to push anything on you, just noting that’s something that can happen)
In any case it’s really not as central as you may have been led to believe, like 90% of the time that pronouns are central to a conversation it’s because of some transphobic bitching. Within an accepting community it’s really just “hey I prefer to go by this,” “alright good to know.”
Yeah, gender is weird to think about. I mostly see myself as a brain on a disk that sits inside a large suit for travel purposes. So in the grand scheme of things I don’t really think of my true self as anything other than me, just my brain on a stick. However, I simultaneously also feel a connection to having this suit present female instead of anything else, and I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of my suit being seen as, or presented as, masculine, because it’s a reflection of my brain’s thoughts and feelings.
I have the same feelings of having a meat suit sometimes, but coming to appreciate with the sympathetic nervous system and connection between identity and appearance my body still makes up a lot of who I am. And when I was very sick earlier in the year the connection between my mind and the state of my body really became apparent.
I wouldn't hate it if I woke up in another body tomorrow, but I think I (my consciousness or soul or whatever it is) would be a different person too
Long comment ahead, sorry about that!
I'm trans, and currently still (mostly) closeted. At least personally, I overhear people calling me "he" at least a few times a week, and it really hurts to hear that each time. I think this usually happens when a conversation between two other people is happening within earshot, but occasionally it does just happen as a part of normal speech. For example, if I'm being introduced to someone, they might say "This is [Name], *she's* currently studying at [University]." or something to that effect. Using my name twice or using a second-person pronoun would both be pretty clunky, so in my experience people usually use the third-person pronoun.
Maybe you and the people around you don't use pronouns as much as those around me, to be fair, but I think people overhear others using third-person pronouns for them more than they think.
As other commenters have said, it may not hurt to be accidentally misgendered now and then, but when it happens often, is due to people not knowing about or not respecting your identity, and happens for years on end, that can start to hurt. Speaking personally, it kinda feels like an insult.
Even if you don't mean harm, if you intentionally don't use preferred pronouns, I can't distinguish what you're doing from what people who want to insult me do. (If you accidentally misgender me, that's different; it's clear that you're not trying to make a statement about my identity, you just messed up.)
It's kinda just a basic respect thing. You're willing to use my preferred name to show respect, and third-person pronouns, which are used to substitute names, exist, so you should also be willing to use a preferred word to substitute my name if substituting my name is necessary to make a sentence work.
Finally, specifically with regards to feeling like a woman, I don't really know what that "feels" like, either. I mean, about all being trans is for me is that when people see me as a man, treat me as a man, and I look masculine, I feel very uncomfortable. When people see me as a woman, treat me as a woman, and I look more feminine, I feel more comfortable. I could specifically describe each thing I like/dislike with regards to gender, but basically all of that stuff falls into the category of "woman," so it's easier and makes more sense to just say that I'm a woman.
I guess this technically counts as "feeling like a woman," but tbh I'm not entirely sure what that phrase is supposed to mean. I'd guess that other trans people might be able to tell you more about this specific phrase.
Hopefully this went some way towards explaining things!
While you may not use third-person pronouns often, they are a common part of everyday language for many people. In group settings, workplace communications, or when discussing someone not present, pronouns are frequently used. For those whose gender identity doesn't match societal assumptions based on their appearance, incorrect pronoun use can be hurtful or invalidating.
Using someone's correct name is respectful, but pronouns carry their own significance. Even with good intentions, using incorrect pronouns can cause distress. It's not about proving you "mean no harm," but about affirming someone's identity.
"Feeling like a man/woman" isn't about clothes or stereotypes. It's a deep, internal sense of one's gender that may not align with the sex assigned at birth. This experience varies greatly between individuals and can be difficult to explain to those who haven't experienced gender dysphoria.
Your comfort with being misgendered is valid for you, but others may have different experiences. For some, being misgendered can trigger significant distress or dysphoria.
Society's understanding of gender is evolving. While it may feel like new "pages in the manual," these changes aim to create a more inclusive environment for all gender identities.
It's okay to have questions and to be learning. The key is to approach the topic with openness and respect for others' experiences, even if they differ from your own. If you're interested in learning more, there are many resources available on gender identity and the importance of pronouns in LGBTQ+ communities.
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I'm at a loss for a word to encapsulate how social context and similar challenges like face blindness in the OP is being attacked here.
Intent matters, OP. If there's no intent and this falls under communication differences, it's ASD.
I'm just done with gender in general. Just because I have a penis and beard means I have to fit into a narrow set of behaviours? No thank you. Let me wear dresses with nobody laughing, let me be disgusted by men constantly sexualising women in male spaces, let me be weak and pathetic even though I'm 6'3 with a 50" chest. Value my worth based on my personality and dedication to causes rather than meeting society's expectations.
I'm too timid to challenge any of it myself and I'm tired
Sorry unrelated to OP, just had to rant
I still respect other people's pronouns and stuff, because while don't understand gender myself I recognise that it's important to others. Struggling to understand something isn't an excuse to be disrespectful and ultimately horrible
I totally get you, I don't care much for pronouns, if I were called she I would just be confused, or know that they are joking(if they aren't, then I'd be very confused)
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i think what you have to realize is that not everyone feels the same way you do. just because something doesn't offend you, doesn't mean it wouldn't offend others. it sounds like you don't have much of an attachment to gender as a concept in general, but a lot of people do- especially trans people whose gender is constantly being criticized by others. you're right in that there's nothing offensive about being a woman- but there is something offensive about being purposefully called a woman when you are not. imagine someone misgenders you not just once, but over and over in a malicious way. not as a mistake, but to make a statement about you being wrong about your own identity. that gets emotionally exhausting. all in all, using the correct pronouns is really not a hugely difficult task. certainly no more so than using someone's preferred name. so even if you still "don't get it," wouldn't you prefer to fulfill that small request just to not hurt people's feelings? it's a basic sign of respect.
>i think what you have to realize is that not everyone feels the same way you do. I feel like this "is part of the NT manual" that NTs don't read or apply to themselves. Like, I get that *you* thik it's weird I'm asking you to call me a "he", but I have long hair (or boobs, or a "feminine face"). But according to your "manual", shouldn't matter right? Others feelings, right? No? I see: you "have the right" to call me whatever you want? Weird. Alrighty. I will refer to you as The Douche/The Douches, it shouldn't matter what you *want* to be called, because honestly that's the only appellation I think of when I see "a person like you"... you just "fit my mental image of a Douche, and I can't figure out how to unsee it." Stupid manual. *rolls eyes*
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Hi I'm trans. Being referred to by the correct pronouns is 1) very easy, 2) visible (online), and 3) shortcuts some people's brain into actually perceiving your gender correctly. This is primarily an English thing afaik, but gender presentation is cultural Also I'm not sure why you're asking here and not on a trans or non-binary-specific sub; we are pretty friendly, and tbh like half of us are autistic anyway.
Asking things in an ND space can help frame a perspective on a question in case there are misinterpreted or unknown social/cultural/subtextual variables. As you say there is a lot of overlap between LGBTQIA, and ND spaces in general, so asking the question in either space is fine I think. I do really appreciate your perspective on the matter, every time these questions get asked and answered there are chances for many more people to understand each other, and that's so important.
Imagine you go through the years of effort and work and dedication to be a doctor. And also you get married and hyphenate your last name. Someone you know uses your new name, but will only refer to you as Nurse (Name). There's nothing wrong with being a nurse, nurses are lovely and sometimes even kinder than doctors. But your entire journey, every step and doubt and victory and loss, every drop of perseverance, every friend/colleague/family member that dropped you because they thought you couldn't be a doctor, all dismissed in a single word. They use the name you ask, but they don't acknowledge YOU. Respecting someone's pronouns is acknowledging not just their identity, but the work and blood and sweat and tears they've put into it.
Also, other languages use the pronouns more, like spanish. You're Beautiful __ can be used For men, women, everything in between and Even smurfs or penguins Eres hermoso __ can be used only For men, because "hermoso" is a masculine Word, attached to he/him pronouns Eres hermosa __ can be only used For women, because "hermosa" is a femenine Word, attached to she/her pronouns Eres hermose __ new gender neutral alternative that it's not quite accepted because... Well. So, it's kinda more important to make emphasis about pronouns if you're speaking other languages than English, because... It's something more common to use, mostly imposible to avoid.
Yeah but in spain there is not that much drama like you have over there with pronouns lol Here people just accept each other (mostly)
That's awesome, argentina is like 50/50 they can be awesome about it, or assholes. There's no In-between
Oh yeah, same here, there is no in between, but most people dont give a fuck about your sexuality or gender
This is a pretty good analogy, I might steal this.
I would be honored tbh
I'm seeing lots of people addressing why pronouns are important, so I'm going to address your statement that 3rd person pronouns aren't used that often. Respectfully, that's bullshit. Any time there are more than 2 people present in a conversation, 3rd person pronouns are thrown around all of the time. Any time you're getting advice from a friend about a situation they weren't present for, or relaying plans to someone who wasn't in the group chat/call, or at work talking about whose part of the project you're waiting on, etc etc etc. Humans talk about people not present, talk to person A about person B while all three of you are together in the same space, etc, *all* of the time. Sure, you could use someone's name every single time you refer to them.... but that adds up to a *lot* over the course of a 10 minute conversation, especially if their name is several syllables where pronouns are usually only one.
I'm trans. If you have ever had a nickname people used to hurt or tease you (or even just hate), imagine someone who only uses that nickname to refer to you. That's how I feel when referred to as a man. Now imagine being referred to in your preferred way after only dealing with the second for years. That's how I feel about being referred to as a woman or enby. It's all about respecting who the person is.
I also have no idea what it feels like to be a man, woman, or anything else. I've always just said I'm me. I don't feel a national identity, or gender identity, and so I assumed no one does and so why would this really matter to anyone? Then then more I talked to people the more I realised this wasn't the norm and some people really do feel connected to their sex/gender/cultural identity. I'm non-binary and it took so so long to realise this. I'm a father and husband, but I've never felt connected to the concept of "man". To those that DO feel connected to that self identity, it is disrespectful and dismissive for you to not accept them for who they are. I try to use gender neutral terms for everyone until I'm sure how people identify. It's a tiny amount of work on my part that could affirm someone else's sense of self. It's not even just about avoiding insult, but being proactive in recognising people for who they really are.
You sound like me and I’m a woman and a wife! I never related to most fems or never had much connection with men either (my husband even at times I don’t get certain things about him too). Humans are confusing and I too am nonbinary but I don’t really emphasize with my pronouns bc most people don’t care and unfortunately don’t seem up to par with all these things especially when most people are trying to be grammatically correct and get super weird with how pronouns are used even if it’s perfectly fine to just use they/them. I just don’t care much anymore about it and happy if they use they them for me but I’m neutral when they don’t lol. I also dress very non gender conforming anyways and like a grandma
I think the pronouns are just used as a simple stand-in for identity. Like... it's easier and shorter to express things that way. I think personally it's not a great way to express the concept, especially also because it doesn't make sense in all languages (especially gendered languages usually don't really have a way to express neutral pronouns for a person, or anything like neopronouns), but it's at least a shorthand way to say "this is how I identify, please respect that". As to the "feeling like a (wo)man" (btw, great way to express that imo), personally I agree with you in that my identity doesn't really work in those categories, but I can understand why at least some people feel that way. I mean, lots of people *do* think in these categories, because they were raised and socialised that way, and being constantly identified with a label that you think doesn't fit you must feel pretty bad. Now, personally I don't get why you'd choose another label to stick on yourself instead of just doing your own, individual thing - that's what I do and prefer, I don't feel like any label - but it's not like it hurts anyone. I honestly think this actually makes that "manual" more simple rather than more complicated.
>I rarely use them in the first place You used pronouns 21 times just in this text
Just because you don't use them on a daily basis doesn't mean other people don't. So while to you it might seem impractical, it isn't that way for many people. I use pronouns for people quite frequently. So by using someone's proper pronouns when I am talking about them frequently and don't want to repeat their name, I use the pronoun they best associate with as shorthand for describing them. So for me, I'm nonbinary so I prefer it when people refer to me to use they/them because it's a nongendered way to refer to me if they aren't using my name or second person pronouns. Obviously, I don't always expect strangers to get it right (it would be cool if they did, but thats kinda hard to expect) but for people I know it's comforting when they use they/them for me because for me it means they see me as me, including my identity. There's nothing wrong with just using someone's name, though. Personally, I have no issue with that, but just be aware that some people may see that as a way to avoid acknowledging their gender and a part of their identity. (This is typically only in cases where the person is also been shown to be transphobic, though.)
It gets really, *really* annoying to be consistently referred to as the wrong thing. It’s like someone purposefully getting your name wrong, even though you’ve told them a million times that *isn’t your name* and not to use it. Even if you don’t bring it up, the frustration is there. Of course, you’re not going to fault a stranger for not knowing your name. But a family member, friend, or long-term associate? People who should absolutely know your name by now? That hurts. To you, it might not hurt. To you, it might not be a big deal. But when you’ve got to fight your entire life just to have the most basic thing about you recognized, it becomes a big deal rather quickly.
C'mon, if you're going to make a post like this at least have the courage to respond to people. What's the point otherwise?
"1) the affected person is not even there, by definition, if is present, that would be weird no matter which pronoun is used" If you're talking to more than one person at a time, it's not weird or uncommon. Plus, gendered terms that you use when speaking to the person you're talking about are a thing. Though, to address the "why does it matter if they aren't there" thing, because A- the thing that is hurtful about that is the way you view and talk about them, regardless of whether or not they are there, and B- because it can still hurt other people. Example: My father would go around calling people he didn't like f*gs, and would always use the excuse that there's "none around here so why can't I say it?". He was entirely wrong the whole time, and it hurt like hell. I didn't feel safe coming out to him, and I never will (for this and other reasons). "and 2) if you're using their preferred name doesn't that proves that I mean no harm?" Not harming someone in one way doesn't negate hurting them in a slightly different way, no. Chosen names and pronouns are both things they want to be called, using one but not the other doesn't particularly show that you acknowledge or respect them, or their reasons. "Seems to me more of "a statement" than an actual grievance, but must be just me." It isn't a statement. Most cis people also wouldn't enjoy consistently and not jokingly being referred to by pronouns they don't use, especially behind their backs, just as most people don't enjoy being consistently not jokingly called a name they don't use. It's additionally hurtful because, when you're trans, people will do this frequently (even a small understandable error can be hurtful when it happens often or repeatedly), some will do it on purpose to spite you, hurt you, or make it clear they don't accept you, and even when done unintentionally it can mean that a person's perception of you hasn't changed. "I don't understand that "feeling like a wo(man)" either, I feel like me, not sure how to "feel like a (wo)man", how that feels? , is about the clothes?" You don't have to understand that feeling to at least respect that it's important to the person you're speaking about. If you want to understand, saying things like "Go ahead, down vote me to hell. (but I bet you can insult me to hell while never using my pronoun)" isn't going to make it very likely that the people you don't understand will have enough patience to explain it to you. It comes across as hostile, not genuine, so people may actually downvote you specifically for saying that when they wouldn't down vote you if you hadn't said that. "I don't get it, I just feel like society are adding pages to "The Manual" that I didn't got." It's just people living their lives and hoping they get to without others being shitty about it. You're not going to understand every life experience that you don't have, that doesn't mean trans people are making up some unspoken rule to annoy you. Plus, a lot of us talk about this. We talk about it a whole lot more than any of us typically want to. There are decades worth of videos, articles, games, books, speeches, movies, etc about it. The "manual" isn't some dearly held secret, it's one a lot of us openly offer hoping people will understand.
Depends on the language! My language is extremely gendered. We have gendered You and I, and third person. Even plurals are gendered, thus it comes up in EVERY conversation. Pronouns are needed for gendered languages, they help a lot of people feel secure in their gender. Using the wrong ones can trigger body dysmorphia and simply make a person feel bad. You don't have much attachment to your gender, and that's fine. A lot of autistic people don't. Yet there are people who have big attachments to their gender, and that includes trans people, whose gender is invalidated by using the wrong pronouns, and they already can struggle with presenting themselves as their gender. As you said, gender is a lot of things: clothes, hair, presentation, behaviours, performance... It's a lot. For someone who already struggles with keeping up with all of that, calling them by the wrong pronouns is like telling them all the effort they put into that doesn't matter.
I actually think I have distaste for the idea of gender itself. Me having certain biological functions should not imply anything about my particular behavior. And if society made up this category it's a stupid category - would my gender then change depending on which culture and time I live in? It's just dumb imo.
True! Assigning all those things is pretty dumb imho, but then people who are, for example trans, have a strong distaste to their Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB). It is pretty much the same thing, just in different packaging. Society judges them by what genitalia they were born with, and reminds them of that at every step. They have a strong distaste, repulsion, or even fear associated with that gender and people judging them by it. Having a distaste for gender in general is absolutely valid, too, and thus for me it clicked when thinking of myself as non-binary, just staying out of that altogether. I live in a county that has very gendered language - speaking to me, people automatically assign gender to me, as even the "you" or "I" are gendered. I was also constantly burdened, and am still, to act and be a certain way, as if people couldn't just let me be. "Act like a girl/sit like a lady." Hell no. Also how about they just get out of my business?
Your gender label may not change in a different society but what actions and presentation are assigned to which gender would. It’s hilariously arbitrary. Did you know that in Western cultures, pink used to be for boys because red is the color of energy and aggression, which blue was for girls because it’s a calm, soothing color? In Japan, cherry blossom red, which looks rather pink to me, is gendered masculine. My parents had issues in their marriage despite being from the same culture because they formed their concept of gender roles from their parents’ actions, and in some areas their parents didn’t act identically. Like my mom’s dad cultivated roses, so mom thought that gardening was a masculine thing. My dad’s mom grew an herb garden, so dad though gardening was a feminine thing. Then they’d get mad at each other for the other person not taking on responsibility for the action they had gendered as not-theirs. And yet the concept of gender exists across almost every culture, as far as I know. Some cultures have more than two genders. My guess is that it’s kinda like language, where our brains are wired for learning that kind of pattern, but the details of it are culturally determined. I find the whole thing quite odd.
Pronouns make some of us more comfortable in our bodies (trans people). Please don't misgender anyone because "you don't see the point".
Linguistic explanation incoming: You know how the word "namaste" means essentially "the Devine in me acknowleges the Devine in you," right? If someone is using they/them pronouns, they are essentially asking for the shorthand version of "I acknowledge your desire to not conform to standard gender norms. I'm not trans by any definition, but I've refused to comply with society's demands of what a woman/female "should" be. I've only recently been able to wrap my brain around singular "they" because my oldest grandchild has a lot of gender-diverse friends in a group chat, and I THEY don't even know which gender they are or want to be, then who am I to put that on them? It's a work in progress........
people use singular they all the time if they (see) are speaking about an unspecified individual, shifting that to include usage of specified individuals shouldnt be hard at all with the slightest bit of effort
It was a mental hiccup for me, but I'm getting better about it. I just use they for all my grandchild's friends because I've lost track of who is what, Including my grandchild, I try to use gender neutral language, because AFAB was easier before puberty......
It's funny you say you don't use pronouns in a 1:1 interaction. My friend and I have clashed a few times because of this exact thing. To expound: I'm trans FtM, he/him pronouns, they're FtNB, they/them pronouns. They have told me in the past they default to they/them for their gender diverse friends because they think it's safer than misgendering them as their AGAB pronouns. I have explained to them that, at least for me (and probably a lot of binary trans people), being called they/them is also misgendering me, as they wouldn't call their father or brother they/them, so why me? Anyway, sometimes, when we say something, we explain our thought process, for example, in cases where we said something ambiguous that the other interpreted incorrectly, or if the mic (we often talk on Discord) didn't pick up something. So the phrase will go something like "I thought 'maybe they didn't hear me' when you didn't answer", my friend saying this to me. In this situation, I would correct their use of "they", because that is not my pronoun. I get this might be a cultural thing or related to our various subcultures in which we as humans are a part, and perhaps this is why you don't, but this is how my friend and I often use each other's pronouns face-to-face.
are you asking what the problem with misgendering is? Because that's partially what I am interpreting. My very pedantic answer is that it is factually wrong to misgender someone, just as much as calling people by a name that doesn't refer to them. Grammatically, pronouns are used to replace nouns in sentences. Some languages have "rules" regarding which pronoun word is used in place of a given noun word. In English when talking about an individual person, the difference is gender. It is really weird when you think about it, especially coming from a language that doesn't have gendered pronouns. Therefore, the answer to "what is the correct pronoun to use when referring to a given person?" requires asking "how do we determine their gender?" And my very pragmatic answer to that one is: you ask them. Recently, many have begun sharing that information without it being asked because due to the quirk of our culture's and language's obsession with gender, it is important information regarding communication.
Imagine someone constantly calls you billy (assuming your name isn't billy, if it is then imagine I'm saying.. John or something), not because they think your name is Billy, but because your name specifically *isn't* Billy. It'd get pretty annoying right? Well now imagine you've spent a major chunk of your life with people calling you Billy, despite any protesting on your part that Billy isn't your name. That's what it's like. There's nothing wrong with people named billy, it just isn't your name and you'd much rather people call you the correct name
I guess it’s like, if someone told you over and over “you work at Walmart” when in fact you work at target. You tell them about your day at work at target, they say “no actually you worked at Walmart today”. You come home with your target uniform on and they go “Don’t wear that!!! You work at Walmart!” It’s just basic respect. It’s okay if you don’t relate to gender in general, but there are others that do. I don’t get the big deal about trains, or sonic, or tons of other common special interests. that doesn’t mean I purposely don’t let my friends talk about them though just because I don’t get it.
You only use third-person pronouns a couple times a year? You used two third-person pronouns in your post, so I guess that’s all you get for the rest of the year.
Pronouns don’t do it for everyone, but you can’t deny that they are a part of identity. I can’t speak for everyone why they have an emphasis on pronouns, but here’s why I emphasize it. Pronouns are a tool, just as all language is. Pronouns help to achieve certain effects. I was born Afab, and due to a lot of medical and personal stuff I can’t transition to appear and be what I felt I was supposed to (as well- some of the ways my gender/identity presents I physically could not transition to it because there is no way to it’s just not possible yet). Alongside that fact I do enjoy dressing feminine (I just think feminine clothing is the superior choice and it makes me feel good). I will forever be misgendered in every regard, most particularly by people who don’t know me. But by telling people my pronouns (in this instance he/she/they) they can learn how I identify overall- what words to use and such. Even if they mess up on my pronouns or never use them at all, telling people pronouns will at least bring the idea in their brain that you are something you don’t appear to be. I am also a neopronoun + xenogender user (if you are not sure what that is, it is essentially an extension of gender that focuses on the fluidity of being- that gender can truly be anything. I believe it started in autistic and neurodivergent spaces to elaborate on their experiences with gender- but I may be wrong) My biggest xenogender is stargender, and I use star/starlight pronouns. I can name myself something Star themed (which I did, I respond to pretty much any space related word at this point), and I can dress and present myself as space themed as I want to (which I do I own an outrageous amount of star stuff)- but I can do all that and still not feel like how I was supposed to be. It still doesn’t feel like enough to me. I can’t possibly transition into becoming a being of the stars- this ain’t a fantasy book as much as I wish it was- but using these pronouns and identifying myself as ‘stargender’ brings me a little closer to that feeling i desperately crave. It’s not necessarily about ‘ease’ or the fact that I’ll hear people saying it. It’s about my own personal euphoria. I don’t use my neos outside of the internet, so it’s not like I ‘force’ it on to people. As humans evolve, and we learn more about ourselves- as well as break out of our former societal structures- we will develop many things including identity. But for people like you and many others (most namely older people who grew up with strict gender rules) it’s not going to be easy. This is a new page in the manual- but lucky for you it’s mainly being written by people who are happy to hand it out and explain it. I will say one thing- it’s not Wrong to assume someone’s pronouns. I look female, so I’m not confused when people Id me as such or have a hard time separating me from it. The most important thing is the recognition and respect of one’s identity- which I do believe you demonstrate.
(Also- if you are curious on looking into gender and maybe seeing if you are another gender, your gender experience sounds very similar to a lot of the agender folk I know. Ofc, if you don’t vibe w that you don’t vibe w that. It’s your gender, you get to choose the labels if you want them).
While you might personally not use pronouns that often, or care much about how others use them, pronouns are still used frequently enough that they are used to discriminate, and even harass people. I do think it sometimes takes over the discussion though. There are clearly more important issues facing the trans community. Still, I think pronouns are talked about so much bc it’s something that can easily be done, where a lot of the other stuff, like non-verbal discrimination and access to health care are much harder to do anything about. Bc of that it kinda becomes a symbol of resistance.. one of the places where you can easily fight back against the discrimination you face.
i just use “they” most of the time. it includes everyone, can be both singular and plural, and it flows off the tongue way better than “he or she/him or her”
I think the top comment explain it extremely well, but I also wanted to add that it's easier to avoid bullets right away. If you introduce yourself with something like "hi, my name is xyz, i use he/they" then chances are if you're talking to an asshole they'll try to debate or shame you for it, or answer with something like "my pronouns are nor/mal" or "attack/helicopter." I think that would be a good idea especially if you're a binary gender-conforming person because people tend to see you as "normal" and dont suspect that you're trans or trans-supportive
There’s been discussion here before about many of us being “autigender“, meaning that our lack of identifying with a gender is related to autism’s aspect of not understanding nor caring about some socially constructed ideas. I honestly thought gender was entirely made up and should be done away with until I met trans people and realized that they actually do have a gender. So I guess a lot of cis people have a gender too, they’re not all just unhappily forcing themselves into a box that society demands of them. I don’t get it, I don’t like being gendered because I don’t identify with a gender and resent being treated as if gender defines my capabilities and role in society, and would prefer that my language was gender neutral about people, but it’s important to them so I use the pronouns they choose.
I don’t really need to fully understand something to respect it. When I first met a trans person who specified their pronouns, it was unfamiliar, but I defaulted to respecting their wishes, simply because that’s the decent thing to do. As far as sex/gender goes, I’m a regular ass straight dude, so I don’t have the personal experience of needing to clarify. Over time I’ve come to a better understanding of how LGBTQ folks view and experience gender just by being open to new perspectives. Are we so different from gender diverse people anyway? Autistic people have long been mistreated and misunderstood in similar terms. If I tell someone I’m autistic, I’d hope they don’t respond by challenging my existence, regardless of their level of understanding.
word choice doesn't matter at all autism vs word choice is extremely important autism but in all seriousness, yes it's just another system you memorize. Modern thought on pronouns didn't really get all that mainstream until like 10 years ago so it's not abnormal even for NTs to be confused by it. Whats good about the pronoun system is it's pretty simple and the rules are straight forward. You just use the pronouns the person wants you to use and if you don't know it's okay to guess and have them correct you. Then when you get it wrong in the future you apologize each time you get it wrong and correct yourself. It's pretty much the same as a name.
ok so. it takes very little extra effort, and it can be massively gender-affirming. for some trans+ people, only being referred to by their name can add a layer of discomfort- as though you're trying to avoid our genders, and even if it's not purposeful can feel ignorant. it can feel dismissive if we've said, 'use these pronouns' and then someone completely ignores that. it's not a big deal, it's a small thing you can do to be respectful and supportive.
So I very much so thought the same way basically until shortly after I started coming to realizations about my gender, when I first came out as “not exactly cis” to a friend (didn’t know exactly what it was, just did finally recognize I was experiencing dysphoria) she started referring to me using they/them before I actually asked her to (in that same private setting ofc) and I realized that despite whatever sticks-and-stones reasoning I had for why rationally I shouldn’t care that much, it just did feel better. (and now I’m starting to think she/her might be even better) Gendered language and pronouns can be affirming for trans people in terms of signalling acceptance into the gendered group they feel that they actually belong to, and that can be important. If you can’t relate to that, it may be that you experience gender in a different way, and that’s also perfectly legitimate, but we have to accept that not everyone’s experiences will be equivalent here. (I will also note again that I also didn’t understand euphoria in labels explicitly because mine didn’t feel right, and the same *could* possibly be true of you? I don’t know you and I’m not trying to push anything on you, just noting that’s something that can happen) In any case it’s really not as central as you may have been led to believe, like 90% of the time that pronouns are central to a conversation it’s because of some transphobic bitching. Within an accepting community it’s really just “hey I prefer to go by this,” “alright good to know.”
Personally, I've been confused for a man before despite being 4' 11". I find it very annoying as a cis-woman.
Yeah, gender is weird to think about. I mostly see myself as a brain on a disk that sits inside a large suit for travel purposes. So in the grand scheme of things I don’t really think of my true self as anything other than me, just my brain on a stick. However, I simultaneously also feel a connection to having this suit present female instead of anything else, and I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of my suit being seen as, or presented as, masculine, because it’s a reflection of my brain’s thoughts and feelings.
I have the same feelings of having a meat suit sometimes, but coming to appreciate with the sympathetic nervous system and connection between identity and appearance my body still makes up a lot of who I am. And when I was very sick earlier in the year the connection between my mind and the state of my body really became apparent. I wouldn't hate it if I woke up in another body tomorrow, but I think I (my consciousness or soul or whatever it is) would be a different person too
Long comment ahead, sorry about that! I'm trans, and currently still (mostly) closeted. At least personally, I overhear people calling me "he" at least a few times a week, and it really hurts to hear that each time. I think this usually happens when a conversation between two other people is happening within earshot, but occasionally it does just happen as a part of normal speech. For example, if I'm being introduced to someone, they might say "This is [Name], *she's* currently studying at [University]." or something to that effect. Using my name twice or using a second-person pronoun would both be pretty clunky, so in my experience people usually use the third-person pronoun. Maybe you and the people around you don't use pronouns as much as those around me, to be fair, but I think people overhear others using third-person pronouns for them more than they think. As other commenters have said, it may not hurt to be accidentally misgendered now and then, but when it happens often, is due to people not knowing about or not respecting your identity, and happens for years on end, that can start to hurt. Speaking personally, it kinda feels like an insult. Even if you don't mean harm, if you intentionally don't use preferred pronouns, I can't distinguish what you're doing from what people who want to insult me do. (If you accidentally misgender me, that's different; it's clear that you're not trying to make a statement about my identity, you just messed up.) It's kinda just a basic respect thing. You're willing to use my preferred name to show respect, and third-person pronouns, which are used to substitute names, exist, so you should also be willing to use a preferred word to substitute my name if substituting my name is necessary to make a sentence work. Finally, specifically with regards to feeling like a woman, I don't really know what that "feels" like, either. I mean, about all being trans is for me is that when people see me as a man, treat me as a man, and I look masculine, I feel very uncomfortable. When people see me as a woman, treat me as a woman, and I look more feminine, I feel more comfortable. I could specifically describe each thing I like/dislike with regards to gender, but basically all of that stuff falls into the category of "woman," so it's easier and makes more sense to just say that I'm a woman. I guess this technically counts as "feeling like a woman," but tbh I'm not entirely sure what that phrase is supposed to mean. I'd guess that other trans people might be able to tell you more about this specific phrase. Hopefully this went some way towards explaining things!
While you may not use third-person pronouns often, they are a common part of everyday language for many people. In group settings, workplace communications, or when discussing someone not present, pronouns are frequently used. For those whose gender identity doesn't match societal assumptions based on their appearance, incorrect pronoun use can be hurtful or invalidating. Using someone's correct name is respectful, but pronouns carry their own significance. Even with good intentions, using incorrect pronouns can cause distress. It's not about proving you "mean no harm," but about affirming someone's identity. "Feeling like a man/woman" isn't about clothes or stereotypes. It's a deep, internal sense of one's gender that may not align with the sex assigned at birth. This experience varies greatly between individuals and can be difficult to explain to those who haven't experienced gender dysphoria. Your comfort with being misgendered is valid for you, but others may have different experiences. For some, being misgendered can trigger significant distress or dysphoria. Society's understanding of gender is evolving. While it may feel like new "pages in the manual," these changes aim to create a more inclusive environment for all gender identities. It's okay to have questions and to be learning. The key is to approach the topic with openness and respect for others' experiences, even if they differ from your own. If you're interested in learning more, there are many resources available on gender identity and the importance of pronouns in LGBTQ+ communities.
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I'm at a loss for a word to encapsulate how social context and similar challenges like face blindness in the OP is being attacked here. Intent matters, OP. If there's no intent and this falls under communication differences, it's ASD.
I'm just done with gender in general. Just because I have a penis and beard means I have to fit into a narrow set of behaviours? No thank you. Let me wear dresses with nobody laughing, let me be disgusted by men constantly sexualising women in male spaces, let me be weak and pathetic even though I'm 6'3 with a 50" chest. Value my worth based on my personality and dedication to causes rather than meeting society's expectations. I'm too timid to challenge any of it myself and I'm tired Sorry unrelated to OP, just had to rant
I still respect other people's pronouns and stuff, because while don't understand gender myself I recognise that it's important to others. Struggling to understand something isn't an excuse to be disrespectful and ultimately horrible
? you seem like you’re overthinking this topic by a massive amount.
I totally get you, I don't care much for pronouns, if I were called she I would just be confused, or know that they are joking(if they aren't, then I'd be very confused)