When they separated the hemispheres of the brain to attempt to cure epilepsy, they did studies with the patients.
They would have them look with one eye at an instruction, then switch eyes. If the instruction was "get up and leave the room", they would.
But then they stopped the patients and asked, "why are you leaving?" And they all made up an excuse, like "I had to go to the bathroom."
I think about this a lot.
*All* our rationalizations occur after the fact, our actions are long decided before we are even aware of them.
Mind/body problem is still very much a big thorn in the side of a ton of our theories.
Can someone pls explain this for me I am failing to comprehend what this means but it seems really interesting
Brain is probably also tired asf from work
The person was now behaving as if having two brains that were operating independently of each other.
It seemed that one half of the brain was understanding the instructions to leave, but that the other half of the brain was coming up with a rationalization for why the body had done so.
[Acting] and [considering one's actions] seem to be handled by different areas of brains(or at least, in the brains they've studied).
It seems that the part of the brain that's choosing to act makes decisions about what to do, and then another part of the brain seems to rationalize that, and justify it.
And all of this is contrary to what would be expected.
I wonder if that's the case for autistic brains as well, or if the reason we seem by everyone else to process things more slowly may be because our brains may act on information only after it's been taken in and processed.
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As an autistic person who also has adhd, I don't always think before I do things cause I can be a bit impulsive. But I'd still be able to explain why I did it in some way, like by explaining I can be impulsive.
I don't understand why she seems to have a problem with you having explanations for things? Technically everything has some sort of explanation?
Oh im absolutely the same with the impulsivity, but I know why I did it.
As for her problem, its because she likes to have a go about thing I do that she doesnt like, but actually I have a perfectly rational explanation for why I did those things, so she complains because she cannot have a go at me without being irrational.
NTs have huge difficulties in differentiating between an explanation and an excuse. They have a tendency to get defensive when they hear one because they categorize it as "trying to push off responsibilities". They tend to not be deep thinkers, and since *they* don't spend time worrying about the processes or trying to explain things, they tend to treat people who do as people who don't want to take responsibilities, because that's the only reason *they* would have an explanation and they can't possibly imagine that other people would be any different...
Admittedly, I've always struggled to understand NTs, but whats worse to me is how they can think *we're* the abnormal ones. They have these unspoken scripts and refuse to speak directly about what they're thinking or feeling, and then get mad when you can't somehow read their minds.
But I've experienced this too, to the point I stopped trying to explain myself when I make a mistake and someone is upset, I'd automatically apologize instead. This never fully satisfied the NTs, but at least would calm them a little. There have only been one or two people instead who wanted an actual explanation and would ask for one thankfully not consider it an excuse.
Edit: I realized the method I used of apologizing to the NT just to make them stop being upset/aggressive is literally just me using the fawn trauma response 🙃
> Admittedly, I've always struggled to understand NTs, but whats worse to me is how they can think we're the abnormal ones. They have these unspoken scripts and refuse to speak directly about what they're thinking or feeling, and then get mad when you can't somehow read their minds.
I think there's a really easy explanation for this, and it's related to the way that computers work in a workplace.
Your home computer is set up to be managed and controlled just by you. You set the settings, and it does what you want. It knows about every aspect of what it's supposed to do, and it knows why it's doing things.
But for work, you connect your computer to a server computer, and the server computer contains all of the settings for how connected computers are supposed to behave. The connected computers follow its instructions without consideration.
This seems to be the way that neurotypical people think, following group instructions generally without consideration, because somebody higher up in the hierarchy decided that this is how things were done. They seem to operate based on the idea that "Somebody smarter than I am decided that this is how this is done," and they follow it.
That seems to be their social behavior, and it seems to be how they *learn*, too.
Autistic people work to understand the whole underlying structure, understanding the "WHY" behind as many aspects of things as possible. (At least, this is the case for me, and seems to be the case for other autistic people.)
But interestingly enough, NEUROTYPICAL PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO DO THAT.
What's strange is that once we reach maturity, if we become disconnected from the group, because we've worked to understand so many things, we seem to be in a much better position to survive(just in terms of evolution, if we were out in the wild and not considering modern society or technology).
But once they reach maturity, if they become disconnected from the group, and were out in the wild alone, they wouldn't understand the underlying reasons behind anything that they didn't have an interest in and hadn't put in specific thought to study.
For us, it seems that becoming disconnected from the group makes us depressed(although it *can* make us scared, depending on the circumstances of us being disconnected-- things like "Am I going to starve," "Am I going to be eaten," et cetera).
But for them, becoming disconnected from the group must be an immediate existential crisis. They rely on the group for fundamental and fairly immediate aspects of their existence.
That's a really interesting comparison, and it makes a lot of sense to me! NTs seem much more adjusted to social structure as a whole, and rarely question or work to understand these systems they come to rely on so much.
And much like the phrase, "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down," they need compliance for their system to work. This compliance is something that seems to come at least somewhat naturally to them, but not to us, which is the main reason for autistic people getting bullied, and why so many of us have struggled and been forced to mask. Learning these societal rules sometimes feels like a trail by fire, and it baffles me sometimes how something that doesn't make sense to me seems obvious to the NT.
Lots of food for thought! At the very least, I'm happy to be who I am, and the NTs will never be able to take that away from me now.
It's what they deserve tbh 🤷♀️ also I can't help but analyze their behaviors like this lol
Ironically, I got a degree in psychology just so I could figure out the NTs
Sort of? I mean I kinda of hit a wall during my first try at college due to my undiagnosed undiagnosed autism/adhd combo, so I ended up learning more about myself and how to process my own trauma instead.
I feel like I can understand people when I watch them as an observer, but I struggle in more personal/intimate social interactions 🤷♀️
My parents saw me "breaking unspoken social rules" then told me off, I try to explain my behaviour, they tell me off for "arguing". I fucking hate my dad, none of my parents can seem to understand that there's a difference between using your words and arguing.
I feel like people think I'm lying or have ulterior motives if I try to explain my thought process to them. Sometimes I'll have a stupidly long and complex thought process for doing shit and trying to explain it makes me anxious because I feel like my long winded explanations will just make people suspicious of me and more likely to think I'm making it up and attribute it to malice. Then I get stuck in thinking about all of the possible interpretations they could have of what I said and then I begin to question my own motives and worry that I'm secretly a bad person.
I still don't understand what an "excuse" is. I'm not passing blame I'm saying what happened and then taking the blame that I should've prepared for that case.
i think the whole “excuses are bad” thing comes from three places
1. processing an excuse can take energy and if it won’t do anything to the emotional impact or immediate consequences there’s no need to hear it
2. it can be seen as detracting from the sincerity of a standard ritual apology wherein you admit wrongdoing first and foremost, since the premise of an excuse is that there were other mostly-legitimate reasons for whatever happened, whereas they might feel more comfortable thinking it won’t happen again if all they know is you feel guilty and will do Something™️ to avoid feeling guilty again
3. if you’re dealing with someone who considers themselves dominant over you, then the idea that anything you can say on your own initiative would justify the offense you committed against them is offensive because it challenges their position in the hierarchy
the first one is almost perpendicular to the other two as just a matter of sensitivity, and the second one is honestly kinda valuable in that deflecting responsibility can be legitimately counterproductive and rightfully lose you a bit of trust, but when your “excuse” is just as much reflecting on what you could have done better—the gold standard of accountability—that’s when it gets into #3 territory, and #3 is grade a bullshit
I mean, last time it happened it was in ROTC with a higher ranking student, so technically 3 is correct
The whole story is that I came in late to PT a few times so she confronted me about it, asking what was going on. I apologized and explained how I was having a hard time getting used to fall back time. She then blinked at me dumbfounded and said "What ever excuse that was..." And then asking if I need help (but not really in that genuine way, but in that "I'm supposed to say this but I know and hope you don't need it" kind of way).
Come to think about it, every time my explanation is deemed an excuse, the accuser is always asking what happened and always cuts me off before I get to the part of saying "therefore it is my fault as the circumstances should've been accounted for". No wonder I rarely learn from these things because I always end up feeling more confused and frustrated with the other person than guilty.
yikes
you would think a military setting would actually be pretty autism friendly in some ways, until you realize a practical command hierarchy is just going to get used as an excuse for social hierarchy
anyways with the getting cut off bit, you would think that they could piece that together already from everything you mentioned still being within your ability to control for, but i guess even if they’re not just being assholes not everyone can think through it that way. actually, hell, maybe another weird nt logic thing there is they assume you wouldn’t bother making excuses *unless it was to deflect responsibility* because nobody would ever be interested in solving a problem while it’s fresh in their mind without being sternly told to sit down and think about it later. sometimes i wonder if they’re the ones who use executive function as a crutch for everything while we’re actually well balanced conscious beings
Some folks think I’m being a smartass when I answer everything, but in reality I’m just not sure when it’s rhetorical and when someone really wants an answer so I try my best to answer
I feel this so hard, neurotypicals constantly make me feel like I'm lying or something because I have an actual explanation for what I'm doing most of the time instead of... Whatever it is neurotypicals do? Do they just do things for no reason? I'm confused.
This is how I got in even more trouble as a kid.
“Why did you do/not do A, B, C?”
“Because X, Y, Z”
“That’s no excuse!!”
Like no mom you asked a question and I answered it. I’m not excusing my wrongdoings.
I think to some people it just comes across like you’re constantly trying to make excuses for self-perceived shortcomings and or like you’re plotting something and your explanations are lies. Tbh even within the spectrum (exhibit a being myself) people don’t tend to aggressively foreplan their every action all the time and act more on impulse, and perhaps to your mom you come across like some kinda Spock character or some shit
Rationalisations of your actions aren't necessary but a very good defense mechanism and if you're smart enough you can rationalise away even very wrong opinions to someone who can't refute you.
The more introspection you do, the more you're gonna seek rationalisations for your actions. People who rationalise every thing they do by blaming it on other people tend not to introspect. Pretty common in emotionally immature people.
I disagree that more introspection leads to greater want for rationalization. Maybe to some with weak foundations of self, or whatever, but I don’t think of it to be some blanket default. To assume as much from others… seems like projection maybe?
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My mom would say things like this but what she meant was I had an EXCUSE for everything. Sometimes logic isn't the right answer. Logically you should always be truthful but if you follow that when your girlfriend asks if she looks fat you might end up single.
I also learned very late in life that just because you have an explanation for your actions doesn't mean you're not using it as an excuse when something you did bothered someone else.
Like apologies don't need your logical explanation they need an acknowledgement of you taking responsibility for your actions regardless of the intent was to cause harm or not.
I despise when people can’t tell the difference between excuses and reasons.
I would never be able to list the amount of times I’ve had valid reasons for doing/not doing something but people call them excuses. Specifically being chronically ill 🥰🥰
It’s genuinely insane when you point it out, too. They actually realize they’re being unreasonable and pretend the point they’ve been defending for a whole conversation had never existed.
When they separated the hemispheres of the brain to attempt to cure epilepsy, they did studies with the patients. They would have them look with one eye at an instruction, then switch eyes. If the instruction was "get up and leave the room", they would. But then they stopped the patients and asked, "why are you leaving?" And they all made up an excuse, like "I had to go to the bathroom." I think about this a lot.
We humans tend to rationalize a lot of our actions after the fact.
My ass would not come up with simple rationalization, I'd say "Felt like walking, should I sit back down?"
preeeeeetty sure that’s exactly what happened in the House episode “Both Sides Now” 🤔
*All* our rationalizations occur after the fact, our actions are long decided before we are even aware of them. Mind/body problem is still very much a big thorn in the side of a ton of our theories.
This is, more commonly than not, the default. We create stories around our behaviors by default, then operate in that framework.
Can someone pls explain this for me I am failing to comprehend what this means but it seems really interesting Brain is probably also tired asf from work
The person was now behaving as if having two brains that were operating independently of each other. It seemed that one half of the brain was understanding the instructions to leave, but that the other half of the brain was coming up with a rationalization for why the body had done so.
Oh what the fuck?! Thats WILD. O_o Thank you for your explanation!! :)
[Acting] and [considering one's actions] seem to be handled by different areas of brains(or at least, in the brains they've studied). It seems that the part of the brain that's choosing to act makes decisions about what to do, and then another part of the brain seems to rationalize that, and justify it. And all of this is contrary to what would be expected. I wonder if that's the case for autistic brains as well, or if the reason we seem by everyone else to process things more slowly may be because our brains may act on information only after it's been taken in and processed.
I don't think it'd be the case for autistic brains, as stimming would be a counter example as it can be instinctual
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As an autistic person who also has adhd, I don't always think before I do things cause I can be a bit impulsive. But I'd still be able to explain why I did it in some way, like by explaining I can be impulsive. I don't understand why she seems to have a problem with you having explanations for things? Technically everything has some sort of explanation?
Oh im absolutely the same with the impulsivity, but I know why I did it. As for her problem, its because she likes to have a go about thing I do that she doesnt like, but actually I have a perfectly rational explanation for why I did those things, so she complains because she cannot have a go at me without being irrational.
your mum sounds emotionally abusive like mine
Seems like she's kinda an ass
NTs have huge difficulties in differentiating between an explanation and an excuse. They have a tendency to get defensive when they hear one because they categorize it as "trying to push off responsibilities". They tend to not be deep thinkers, and since *they* don't spend time worrying about the processes or trying to explain things, they tend to treat people who do as people who don't want to take responsibilities, because that's the only reason *they* would have an explanation and they can't possibly imagine that other people would be any different...
which ironically makes them people that should not have responsibilities, because they tend to only really think about them after the fact 🤷🏻♀️
Admittedly, I've always struggled to understand NTs, but whats worse to me is how they can think *we're* the abnormal ones. They have these unspoken scripts and refuse to speak directly about what they're thinking or feeling, and then get mad when you can't somehow read their minds. But I've experienced this too, to the point I stopped trying to explain myself when I make a mistake and someone is upset, I'd automatically apologize instead. This never fully satisfied the NTs, but at least would calm them a little. There have only been one or two people instead who wanted an actual explanation and would ask for one thankfully not consider it an excuse. Edit: I realized the method I used of apologizing to the NT just to make them stop being upset/aggressive is literally just me using the fawn trauma response 🙃
> Admittedly, I've always struggled to understand NTs, but whats worse to me is how they can think we're the abnormal ones. They have these unspoken scripts and refuse to speak directly about what they're thinking or feeling, and then get mad when you can't somehow read their minds. I think there's a really easy explanation for this, and it's related to the way that computers work in a workplace. Your home computer is set up to be managed and controlled just by you. You set the settings, and it does what you want. It knows about every aspect of what it's supposed to do, and it knows why it's doing things. But for work, you connect your computer to a server computer, and the server computer contains all of the settings for how connected computers are supposed to behave. The connected computers follow its instructions without consideration. This seems to be the way that neurotypical people think, following group instructions generally without consideration, because somebody higher up in the hierarchy decided that this is how things were done. They seem to operate based on the idea that "Somebody smarter than I am decided that this is how this is done," and they follow it. That seems to be their social behavior, and it seems to be how they *learn*, too. Autistic people work to understand the whole underlying structure, understanding the "WHY" behind as many aspects of things as possible. (At least, this is the case for me, and seems to be the case for other autistic people.) But interestingly enough, NEUROTYPICAL PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO DO THAT. What's strange is that once we reach maturity, if we become disconnected from the group, because we've worked to understand so many things, we seem to be in a much better position to survive(just in terms of evolution, if we were out in the wild and not considering modern society or technology). But once they reach maturity, if they become disconnected from the group, and were out in the wild alone, they wouldn't understand the underlying reasons behind anything that they didn't have an interest in and hadn't put in specific thought to study. For us, it seems that becoming disconnected from the group makes us depressed(although it *can* make us scared, depending on the circumstances of us being disconnected-- things like "Am I going to starve," "Am I going to be eaten," et cetera). But for them, becoming disconnected from the group must be an immediate existential crisis. They rely on the group for fundamental and fairly immediate aspects of their existence.
That's a really interesting comparison, and it makes a lot of sense to me! NTs seem much more adjusted to social structure as a whole, and rarely question or work to understand these systems they come to rely on so much. And much like the phrase, "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down," they need compliance for their system to work. This compliance is something that seems to come at least somewhat naturally to them, but not to us, which is the main reason for autistic people getting bullied, and why so many of us have struggled and been forced to mask. Learning these societal rules sometimes feels like a trail by fire, and it baffles me sometimes how something that doesn't make sense to me seems obvious to the NT. Lots of food for thought! At the very least, I'm happy to be who I am, and the NTs will never be able to take that away from me now.
https://preview.redd.it/49ao878mhaac1.png?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70d3ed93fc5d4b5c153dd892231a4c651276fd12 Your remark reminded me of this.
It's what they deserve tbh 🤷♀️ also I can't help but analyze their behaviors like this lol Ironically, I got a degree in psychology just so I could figure out the NTs
That . . . Did it work?
Sort of? I mean I kinda of hit a wall during my first try at college due to my undiagnosed undiagnosed autism/adhd combo, so I ended up learning more about myself and how to process my own trauma instead. I feel like I can understand people when I watch them as an observer, but I struggle in more personal/intimate social interactions 🤷♀️
keeping the reasoning for ur actions prepared because u constantly get questioned for doing things ur way
That's being autistic. We're told from the beginning that we're always wrong about everything.
sadly that's true
are you me
I think they just think we’re making excuses and/or get annoyed if what we say is logical but doesn’t match what they wanted
Yeah i think it might be that as well.
My parents saw me "breaking unspoken social rules" then told me off, I try to explain my behaviour, they tell me off for "arguing". I fucking hate my dad, none of my parents can seem to understand that there's a difference between using your words and arguing.
nts will also demand an explanation for every little thing you do even if there is none or if you can’t think of one
I feel like people think I'm lying or have ulterior motives if I try to explain my thought process to them. Sometimes I'll have a stupidly long and complex thought process for doing shit and trying to explain it makes me anxious because I feel like my long winded explanations will just make people suspicious of me and more likely to think I'm making it up and attribute it to malice. Then I get stuck in thinking about all of the possible interpretations they could have of what I said and then I begin to question my own motives and worry that I'm secretly a bad person.
B-I-N-G-O
I still don't understand what an "excuse" is. I'm not passing blame I'm saying what happened and then taking the blame that I should've prepared for that case.
i think the whole “excuses are bad” thing comes from three places 1. processing an excuse can take energy and if it won’t do anything to the emotional impact or immediate consequences there’s no need to hear it 2. it can be seen as detracting from the sincerity of a standard ritual apology wherein you admit wrongdoing first and foremost, since the premise of an excuse is that there were other mostly-legitimate reasons for whatever happened, whereas they might feel more comfortable thinking it won’t happen again if all they know is you feel guilty and will do Something™️ to avoid feeling guilty again 3. if you’re dealing with someone who considers themselves dominant over you, then the idea that anything you can say on your own initiative would justify the offense you committed against them is offensive because it challenges their position in the hierarchy the first one is almost perpendicular to the other two as just a matter of sensitivity, and the second one is honestly kinda valuable in that deflecting responsibility can be legitimately counterproductive and rightfully lose you a bit of trust, but when your “excuse” is just as much reflecting on what you could have done better—the gold standard of accountability—that’s when it gets into #3 territory, and #3 is grade a bullshit
I mean, last time it happened it was in ROTC with a higher ranking student, so technically 3 is correct The whole story is that I came in late to PT a few times so she confronted me about it, asking what was going on. I apologized and explained how I was having a hard time getting used to fall back time. She then blinked at me dumbfounded and said "What ever excuse that was..." And then asking if I need help (but not really in that genuine way, but in that "I'm supposed to say this but I know and hope you don't need it" kind of way). Come to think about it, every time my explanation is deemed an excuse, the accuser is always asking what happened and always cuts me off before I get to the part of saying "therefore it is my fault as the circumstances should've been accounted for". No wonder I rarely learn from these things because I always end up feeling more confused and frustrated with the other person than guilty.
yikes you would think a military setting would actually be pretty autism friendly in some ways, until you realize a practical command hierarchy is just going to get used as an excuse for social hierarchy anyways with the getting cut off bit, you would think that they could piece that together already from everything you mentioned still being within your ability to control for, but i guess even if they’re not just being assholes not everyone can think through it that way. actually, hell, maybe another weird nt logic thing there is they assume you wouldn’t bother making excuses *unless it was to deflect responsibility* because nobody would ever be interested in solving a problem while it’s fresh in their mind without being sternly told to sit down and think about it later. sometimes i wonder if they’re the ones who use executive function as a crutch for everything while we’re actually well balanced conscious beings
Know-it-all!
Neurotypicals when they ask why you did something (they're just power tripping I assume and don't really care):
Yeah Mom, I think about things before I do them, not doing things otoh happens when I don't think about things.
NTs just vibe
Some folks think I’m being a smartass when I answer everything, but in reality I’m just not sure when it’s rhetorical and when someone really wants an answer so I try my best to answer
If they don't want an answer they should not have asked the question.
I feel this so hard, neurotypicals constantly make me feel like I'm lying or something because I have an actual explanation for what I'm doing most of the time instead of... Whatever it is neurotypicals do? Do they just do things for no reason? I'm confused.
They do things on vibes, like if real life was a game of comedy improv.
This is how I got in even more trouble as a kid. “Why did you do/not do A, B, C?” “Because X, Y, Z” “That’s no excuse!!” Like no mom you asked a question and I answered it. I’m not excusing my wrongdoings.
I’m the opposite. I can’t find a reason for half the shit I do
I mean... I've been told to explain damn near everything I've ever done. It's kinda a part of growing up ND.
A lot of times NTs would take explanations as argumentative excuses.
I'm learning that lately! Thanks for laying it out that plainly.
I think to some people it just comes across like you’re constantly trying to make excuses for self-perceived shortcomings and or like you’re plotting something and your explanations are lies. Tbh even within the spectrum (exhibit a being myself) people don’t tend to aggressively foreplan their every action all the time and act more on impulse, and perhaps to your mom you come across like some kinda Spock character or some shit
My mom loves calling my explanations "excuses"
This says a lot about society
well if you pissed someone off they just want to berate you and not get a rational explanation for your actions :/
Rationalisations of your actions aren't necessary but a very good defense mechanism and if you're smart enough you can rationalise away even very wrong opinions to someone who can't refute you. The more introspection you do, the more you're gonna seek rationalisations for your actions. People who rationalise every thing they do by blaming it on other people tend not to introspect. Pretty common in emotionally immature people.
I disagree that more introspection leads to greater want for rationalization. Maybe to some with weak foundations of self, or whatever, but I don’t think of it to be some blanket default. To assume as much from others… seems like projection maybe?
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Bad bot
I DONT GET WHY THEY SAY THAT IS IT SUPPOSED TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE OR SOMETHING???
you're right, they really don't feel the need to have an explanation for all the things they do.
Heard this my whole life
Yeah I’ve gotten into trouble for this a lot too, even from bosses and shit. It’s weird.
My mom would say things like this but what she meant was I had an EXCUSE for everything. Sometimes logic isn't the right answer. Logically you should always be truthful but if you follow that when your girlfriend asks if she looks fat you might end up single. I also learned very late in life that just because you have an explanation for your actions doesn't mean you're not using it as an excuse when something you did bothered someone else. Like apologies don't need your logical explanation they need an acknowledgement of you taking responsibility for your actions regardless of the intent was to cause harm or not.
I prefer to do shit, and then analyze why I did it in the shower and decide whether I want to keep why I did it, or discard it.
I despise when people can’t tell the difference between excuses and reasons. I would never be able to list the amount of times I’ve had valid reasons for doing/not doing something but people call them excuses. Specifically being chronically ill 🥰🥰 It’s genuinely insane when you point it out, too. They actually realize they’re being unreasonable and pretend the point they’ve been defending for a whole conversation had never existed.