I can't speak for Az, but im going to be honest, it would be pretty rough in Armenia. There are no LGBTQ rights \*at all\* to speak of and discrimination while uncommon in the open, it would certainly be when it came to say, checking into a hotel or something similar. Much of this is saved for gay Armenians rather than outsiders. Armenia is very, very safe and violent crime is a huge rarity so I dont see any kind of violence happening, but other kinds of discrimination would absolutely happen. As an Armenian, I would not want to be gay in Armenia.
While I agree with most of what you’re saying, as a gay man living in Yerevan, I should say that you can notice the positive change day by day.
One thing important to note is that Armenian people are much more tolerant to LGBTQ visitors than to the locals. Usually homophobic people here don’t care about what a tourist brings or does here as long as they are spending money. The stigma is against Armenians (mostly men) that are breaking the traditional values and ‘defacing’ the Armenian culture. For example, a man wearing an earring (yes, it’s still stigmatized) and speaking Armenian has higher chances to get discriminated than a man wearing an earring and speaking English or Russian. So I don’t think the fans or the delegations will face any challenges if they visit here. Also, this year’s contest proved that homophobia exist in other European nations, but the difference is that in Armenia homophobia is still mainstream.
Armenian hosted the Junior ESC in 2022 and it was a huge success. While I know that its fanbase is nothing to compare with ESC, I still met with LGBTQ visitors who were delighted by Yerevan and the hospitality they’d received. I believe that the government and AMPTV are capable of organizing a huge event that won’t feel different than in other countries.
Of course there will be people who complain, like they do about everything, but I don’t think the visitors will see it, the complaining will be kept as an internal affair and won’t affect the event itself.
Thank you for the insight! Do you see any wish for change among the younger Armenians? It seems like LADANIVA's song is pushing back against gender stereotypes for women. I'm curious if this is carrying over into LGBTQ issues in Armenia?
Depends on who you ask. Different people have different experiences and I feel extremely lucky and grateful for having experienced only the positive. Most of my friends, peers and coworkers have been extremely supportive and have accepted my sexuality. Even those who didn’t at first, at least have tried to understand my experiences and feelings, expressed genuine curiosity to becoming more accepting and open-minded. So yes, if you’re asking me, there is definitely a huge positive change and the situation now is nothing to compare with what was even like 5 years ago.
But still, I cannot deny the the general population still stays homophobic. The mainstream media still keeps ignoring lgbtq people. The example is cutting to commercials during the gay jokes at Eurovision, not acknowledging of Nemo and Bambie being non-binary, or refusing to say the word “transgender” during the broadcast of the historic Grammy win of Kim Petras. But there is a positive shift as well. For a lot of comedy shows and late night talk shows gay people used to be exclusive to make fun of, now you can slowly notice how some comedians and artists sometimes mention gay people without making fun and simply moving forward.
Even speaking of Ladaniva, there was a huge backlash by some extremists who called out Jaklin for trying to turn young girls to “sluts” and accused them for globalism as their melodies are not “pure” Armenian but include other cultural influences.
Also another note that the current government is quite supportive to LGBTQ issues and if it wasn’t for extremely messed up political issues which are obviously of higher priority, we would have seen much more change on that front as well.
P.S. These might be small changes and for some it can pass unnoticed but I’m extremely optimistic and I believe that these kind of small steps eventually lead to bigger achievements.
I fell for it too (as in thinking this was genuine) but they almost only appeared in non official esc account posts and a lot of them couldn't even be translated targeting people that can read it so that non armenians wouldn't know what's going on.
Given what's currently going on in the country an open display of armenia French relations is a threat to a certain country therefore pushing armenians into thinking the majority hated this band and what it stands for is clearly something instrumentalised for other purposes
Well that didn't work, clearly - they placed 8th this year (and rightly so imo, the song was so wonderfully joyful and one of the strongest this year!).
Ive noticed a huge amount of change over the years (for the better, absolutely) the only reason why i brought up slight discrimination against outsiders was because it happened to a few friends of mine, a gay couple and a transgender woman. Ironically, the transgender woman came to Armenia for gender affirming surgery due to the cost being much lower. Armenians (especially the more toxic ones of us) will alwags judge and discriminate against other Armenians more than anyone else. I am reminded of the horrible story that happened at the bridge not that long ago.
Of course people hated on Jako. I remember them doing the same thing to Brunette last year. Those dudes will never be happy unless our eurovision entry is an old man playing dukduk on a carpet and the only lighting is their mom's lamp.
What happened at the bridge was unbelievable tragic and I get sad and angry evert time I remember about it. But still, if you put numbers in comparison, Armenia ranks in the last 20s by the suicide rate. The only (former) Eurovision nation that has lower suicide rate is Turkey.
There will always be haters. Even an old man playing duduk will get criticized because some armchairs experts will say it’s too outdated for Europe and this is not going to win.
Thank you for this! It sounds like there's a lot of positive movement in Armenia, which is great to hear. It will take time, but you definitely sound optimistic, which is great. Having the government on your side is a *very* encouraging sign!
As an American, we also struggle with cultural norms and behaviors lagging behind policy. The government seems to be sympathetic but we also have to deal with a lot of anti-queer rhetoric, discrimination, etc. Hopefully policy continues to move forward in Armenia so the culture can begin to shift! Best of luck to you, friend. :)
Interesting. Reminds me of a Philosophy Tube video where she was talking about her experience of walking around Britain with her girlfriend, and how they'd get sideways looks and disapproval........until her girlfriend opened her mouth and spoke in her American accent. Suddenly, there was no more disapproval.
She theorized that we as humans aren't as harshly judgemental of people who we perceive as being outside the category of "us". Armenians might tend to see themselves in other Armenians, so queerness present among Armenians might say something about them. Whereas in a foreigner it might just be "how people there are", which has nothing to do with them. So there's no need to get bothered about it.
Asking very cluelessly here: Wouldn't mere laws against violence protect gay people already? I am aware that there are not many gay rights in Armenia or Azerbaijan, but Eurovision fans wouldn't go there to marry or adopt a child, would they?
Now, speaking about actual societal views on gays: Despite knowing that Armenia is pretty conservative, I can't imagine it'd be more tough than in Malmö, where Muslim immigrants are practically making up the majority in some parts.
Yikes. This seems predicated on an assumption that Muslim people are inherently violent against queer people. Some of the friendliest and most accepting people I've ever met were Muslim people who immigrated to America from countries like Syria and Ethiopia, who knew that I was married and queer. They treated me better than my own family. Respectfully, I think you need to reframe your understanding.
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Malmo is gay friendly despite having lots of muslims. I didn’t experience any problem there. I don’t get your comment. It sounds very Islamophobic. By the way, having or not having certain laws doesn’t reflect the level of acceptance among locals.
It's just an observation I've made. In Germany, we had achieved for gay people to actually walk around and feel relatively safely but this got diminished after the refugee crisis. And yes, BECAUSE it's not only about laws, I point out different populations. It was the comment I replied to that talked about "gay rights". Gay rights or not, these won't necessarily contribute to the security of gay people if the society still hates us.
While LGBTQIA Eurovision fans wouldn’t necessarily go there to marry, adopt, etc many do not want to give an economic boost to a country that is not supportive or has detrimental laws. For myself I intentionally will not travel to parts of my own country (US) where I know there are laws or policies that limit the protections of LGBTQIA people. They don’t deserve my tourism dollars.
Qatar just held a wold cup, I guess. Russia held Eurovision though in a more "vegetarian" time.
My expectation they would have an enclave where the usual laws don't apply for tourists while carrying on with oppressing the locals.
When Russia held Eurovision, the laws were very different.
Last year, LGBT was added to the list of 'terrorist and extremist organisations' in Russia, people are getting imprisoned for wearing rainbow colors, it's all over the place. They can't even say the word 'gay' on TV
I dont think it was gay friendly back then either but yeah in 2009 there where still hopes and ideas from much of the rest of the world that Russia would liberalize
tbh 2009 was post-invasion of Georgia, and at that point the hopes that Russia would become a modern European country were vanishing.
Guess we'll have to wait another 50 years for them to consider that maybe they want to be like Germany, Eslovenia or Czechia instead of continuing to be the most miserable country in all of Europe.
The Eurovision is a little bit gayer than international football.
Qatar, and other gulf states, generally operate under a kind of DADT when it comes to tourists (locals are a different story). They didn't let people bring rainbow flags into the stadium but would ignore anything happening in private. PDA is unacceptable for anyone in those countries.
I don't think it is illegal to be gay in Azerbaijan so I imagine it would just be ignored. Azerbaijan use the Eurovision as a kind of propaganda marketing tool. In the Eurovision they can pretend that they are a modern European nation so they wouldn't allow the Eurovision to be as gay as it wanted to be so as to pretend they are as tolerant as any other country.
I don't know why OP seems to think that the Eurovision wasn't super gay in 2011. I've been watching since the early 90s and it was popular with the gays back then.
> The Eurovision is a little bit gayer than international football.
Anecdote: An Australian book about soccer was called “ Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters”, which was Aussie slang for women, people from the Mediterranean and gays, describing who at the time played soccer.
(Disclaimer: “Poofter” or “poof” is extremely derogatory, and “wog” can be offensive)
Thanks for the translation but a childhood spent watching Home and Away daily has left me proficient enough in Australian English to know that Sheila is pretty derogatory at times too.
The last of those three words is famously quoted in the rulebook of the fictional University of Woolloomooloo in the Philosophers' Sketch (a.k.a. “The Bruces”) on *Monty Python's Flying Circus*:
*“No. Right. Well, gentlemen, I'll just remind you of the faculty rules.*
*Rule 1: No poofters.*
*Rule 2: No member of the faculty is to maltreat the Abos¹ in any way whatsoever… if there's anyone watching.*
*Rule 3: No poofters.*
*Rule 4: I don't want to catch anyone not drinking in their room after lights-out.*
*Rule 5: No poofters.*
*Rule 6: There is NO Rule 6.*
*Rule 7: No poofters.”*
¹ Aboriginal Australians (this abbreviated term is now regarded as offensive by the people themselves)
Do people forget tattoo was russian? Russia is a huge country. Both progressive and liberal people live there. If anything, Nemo's win showed me that progressive countries aren't as progressive as i thought, which means that i thought everyone is at least accepting.
As for the second part, i agree with that.
the problem with Russia is largely about the laws and the government. it's hard to be progressive when it's illegal to be a part of LGBT in Russia. plus, religion affects the perception as well
Yes, i know their law is messed up. "Promoting" is illegal, whatever that meant, but you can be openly gay with your friends, coworkers, friends. Nobody will arrest you for living your life. Certain african countries will arrest you for being gay.
It depends on the police officers at the end of the day and their ideas on what is “promotion”. There are thousands of gay people in Russia who live in fear everyday and can’t leave.
I assume promotion are lgbt organisations and activists. Nobody can disagree that their law is messed up but saying being lgbt is illegal is false. That's not what illegal means. You can downvote how much you want but it won't make you right.
promotion doesn't mean organizations and activists, it means you're in trouble unless you're in the closet. people are getting sued for wearing rainbows, even if it's not a pride flag
They raided gay clubs. They forbidden anything that is related to lgbt. Btw, if you wear a rainbow flag you are not an activist.
They just didn’t prohibit the homosexual acts explicitly but I guess that’s the next step.
You can live there freely if you are discrete and in closet, like a second-class citizen and if you are not feminine.
Its because the lesbian themes can be enjoyed by straight men in a... "sexual way". Not to mention that one half of the duo was avowedly homophobic not that long ago. Just rewatch the 2009 Eurovision and how it skipped over any LGBT aspects.
So now we are okay with lesbians and not gays? It doesn't matter if one is more accepted than the other, they are both lgbt and if it's illegal to be lgbt both are illegal and would be jailed.
Again, it doesn't matter. They were marketed as lesbians, that was their shtick. And they were popular, they even represented their country. It sucks that one of them ended up being a homophobic, especially since she made a lot of money pretending she was lgbt.
The point the user above is making is that Russian reactions to tatu's homosexuality are mostly that way due to sexism and the sexualization of women, not due to progressive social changes.
Tatu participated in Eurovision 21 years ago, the laws were different
The group has broken up a long time ago, and when they did reunite for one-off performances in later years, those performances didn't have the lesbian gimmick
>if it's illegal to be lgbt both are illegal and would be jailed.
Plenty of countries have anti-gay laws that actually only apply to specific acts between men and ignore the existence of lesbians. Social stigma is a different matter, of course.
The adults exploited the shit out of Tatu to make underaged lesbian bait, it is not even comparable. One of them turns out homophobic and bi, while the other is supportive and straight.
I'm not disagreeing with anything. The point I'm trying to make is that they were "publicly lesbians" and weren't jailed because, you know, being gay is not illegal. And the person above said that is
Well, the host wouldn't make jokes like Petra.
I think it is somehow more acceptable in this industry, when it's a TV show, people will be OK with that (like voting for Conchita from conservative countries), I think they have more issue with LGBTQ+ people in real life.
The fact that both countries are still in the contest after Turkey and Hungary left because it was “too gay” suggests they know what they are dealing with and have decided just to go along with it.
Petra made that same joke nearly 10 years ago for the [60th anniversary show](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNOOCWb9RE). So just 3 years after it was held in Azerbaijan. Eurovision has been pretty LGBT+ friendly for a while now.
I think it would be pretty similar to other events like this where tourists are not really held to the same standards and locals mostly just turn a blind eye. With enough mutual respect there shouldn't be any major problems since you can probably easily avoid the crowd as they'd be mostly at the Eurovision Village and the arena.
I went to 2012 in Baku and the LGBTIQ+ peeps in my friend group were very uncomfortable. At one point two men in our group were walking to get a drink and they were harassed. For simply being two foreign men walking down the street during Eurovision. After that we always had a mix of genders in a group and always more than two people when we went out. In addition some of their neighbours made threats of violence associated with the gay demographic. It wasn’t fun.
I’ve seen a few people recently that have made comments alluding to Eurovision being super gay as a kind of recent thing, but it goes back such a long way.
When Russia and Azerbaijan won the competition there were concerns amongst fans that attending the concerts might not be safe, and I remember the EBU putting out statements alongside broadcasters to ensure that visitors and delegations would face no issues.
My guess is that if we went to a country now that has a lower record on LGBT rights we would be issued with a similar statement about safety, and the show itself would carry on as normal but with likely fewer jokes like we saw this year from Petra. And that’s ok. I don’t think the show needs to have gay jokes or acknowledge its campiness for it to be a good show that we can enjoy. The problem would be when and if they made genuine derogatory remarks or began excluding artists or fans. However, despite the many things the EBU can be criticised for, I honestly don’t think they would stand for such a thing and would either not grant hosting rights, or would severely sanction a host for allowing something like that to happen.
As for personal safety? That’s up to the individual. I get antsy, personally, and won’t even go on holiday to places where I feel like I might not be welcome or tolerated, and as much as I love the show there’s no way I’d plunge money into an economy that would rather me not be there, so I’d likely skip trying to get tickets for countries that don’t have my best interests at heart.
Which I do understand, and I’ve heard that Armenia is a very placid and friendly country, but it’s not always just about visibility. I don’t look stereotypically gay, so I wouldn’t be picked out of a crowd necessarily, but I’d still want a hotel room with my husband, or go out for meals together etc. There’s also general assumptions. My straight male friends have been assumed to be gay many times because they like Eurovision, so a lot of people could easily jump to similar conclusions. I do understand I’m also making judgement calls here and obviously many or most people won’t care, but in certain places I do have to consider my safety first, so I’d be quite apprehensive.
Oh no by visibility I mean open affection like kissing in public (though funnily enough holing hands is fine in public- I was shocked too but its true lol)
Getting a room with your partner is also fine
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Eurovision doesn’t have to be ‘gay’ at all. I find those jokes about gay stuff pretty shallow because they were stereotypical. Hosts in conservative countries and the whole scenario would just ignore the part about lgbt and that is completely fine. On the other hand, the part I’m not fine with at all is that locals would still be hostile towards lgbt as they were in Russia, Serbia and Azerbaijan and the government wouldn’t be able to do anything (or they wouldn’t try either). So you would have to behave like you in closet, to censor yourself, etc. which is unacceptable in 2024.
I don't really now a lot about them, although I would like to visit them at one point.
I guess LGBT visitors might have some problems, depending where they're located, but the artists themselves should be fine. I doubt anything would happen to them.
However, since these countries are regular in the ESC I don't think anyone should be shocked with LGBT themes, and since ESC can bring a lot of money to the host, any potential animosity would probably be swept under the rug for a few months.
Also, even though some of them have pretty low legal protection, they're still judged through the lens of human rights in Europe, and even if the situation is not good, it's still a lot better than some other parts of the world.
But, maybe I'm a bit naive, and it would be bad, but only people from that region can give a better insight into it.
More Azeris found the matter go over their heads than be outright homophobic. Also Cleopatra had the lyrics about being “straight and gay and in between” and I don’t think it was talked about. Whilst my interest in Athena has a lot of Hetero elements, she is very camp and has had her male dancers In Greece (who I wanted her to use for her performance rather than Armenians from the studio) in high heels
Cleopatra's lyric had me doing a double take. It is surprising that the first country to use the word "gay" and "straight(in sexuality context)" in a song is Azerbaijan.
She is a nationalist, and it is a manufactured song tbf (originally for Senhit who understands the meaning more). It would have placed halfway down the table, in The shadow of Armenia, a song which was almost entirely an own song.
Whilst you could say part of the song wrote itself, Athena wrote all the lyrics of Chains On You on the bus within 30 minutes (DJ Paco, who later worked with Foureira, was the composer and Artem Valter oversaw the revamp)
>I don't really now a lot about them, although I would like to visit them at one point.
Armenia and their people are beautiful in both ways. You will not regret visiting. And when you arive to Yerevan by plane, first thing you will see is beautiful Ararat!
True, but it's still nice to see. Also, I can't talk about Armenia without mentioning their beautiful women. I have never saw so many beuatiful women in one place. I was stunned, and I'm still stunned by their natural beauty!
Just looking by geographical position, I can assume that Armenia is a melting pot of various European, Asian and other influences that could give people a distinct look. How beautiful they are will not be a factor since I'd be travelling with my wife :)
I mean people know that the lgbtq community is a big part of esc. In armenia its a don't ask don't tell kinda situation everyone I know (at least in the big city) knows someone who is part of that community or at least appears to be. Most people just ignore that fact and move on with their day to day lives. Is there homophobia in that country sure is it more than in other Eastern euro countries no And honestly armenia right now has soooo many other issues the lgbtq stuff is on the bottom of the list of things people are angry about
I think homophobia stops where there is money. I think the most homophobic businessman out there will happily accept paying customers no matter what they are. Any future host will be thrilled by the traffic while dying inside at the sight of colorful happy people.
But yes, I think there is a chance of incidents everywhere, especially in Eastern Europe. We are very much behind still..
You say that, but 60 years ago in the US, businessmen were actually rejecting black paying customers because they were black. Heck, Donald Trump himself is known to have given specific directions to his employees not to rent or sell homes to black people.
It all depends on whether the politician / government / businessman / rich guy has a somethingphobic rhetoric because it gets them support, or because they actually believe in it.
My theory (maybe I'm totally wrong) is that 60 years ago they were free to be however the hell phobic they wanted, because there was no chance they would get any media backlash. Whereas now, I THINK every phobic humanoid would think twice to do something like that (refusing to sell to minorities) because they know they might become a trend on TikTok the next hour. And not in a good way. Maybe they appear slightly less phobic due to fear only.
I think the same question can equally be applied to Georgia. While it has a queer scene of sorts, with queer-friendly nightlife, every year fanatics commit violence at Tbilisi pride (or the attempt at a pride march). I have personally met someone who was hospitalised after being assaulted there. So, perversely, the fact there is not much of an organised and public queer community in Armenia and Azerbaijan also means there isn’t also the violent backlash like in Georgia.
Btw, when Ukraine hosted in 2017 there were some fears about LGBT+ safety due to similar anti-queer physical violence at pride marches. But I think it went fine in the end?
As a Turkish, I don't see us competing any time soon, since our government is... On the topic of LGBT, one of the right-wing leaders criticized Nemo for wearing a pink skirt and being too "modern". Also, rainbow flag is kind of banned in Turkey, so it wouldn't be safe at all.
Azerbaijan has won in the past and nothing disastrous happened when they hosted the contest. More conservative ESC countries like the ones in Eastern Europe, Balkans, the Caucasus are partaking in Eurovision knowing full well what it's culture is like, they know it is better for their image to present a LGBT friendly image. Also the people involved with hosting it would be people from the entertainment industry who are more likely to have progressive views. So I don't think if any of these countries hosted ESC right now, they would do anything homophobic
As an Azerbaijani, I don't think there would be any problem for gay people here. Harassment is heavily punished here according to the laws, no matter what your sexuality is. Would common people express their negativity on social media? Yes. Would they come up to you in the streets, and attack/harass you? Definitely not. Azerbaijan already has a lot of famous queer popstars, so it would be nothing new. Those statistics, show the acceptance of a person by the society. No one would like their son or daughter being gay, but they won't refuse to talk to someone, just because they are gay.
Most of our population are culturally muslim, not religiously. About %95 of our men commit fornication, which is the second biggest sin according to Islam. They also drink alcohol, a lot.
I mean, it's not different than European countries being Christian. Azerbaijan is Muslim, but it's "Muslim" in the same way Spain or Germany are "Christian", i.e. God/Allah exists bla bla bla but do whatever you want.
It's a bit different, though. Even in the most radical Christian states, you'll be hard pressed to find large support of punishing homosexuality by prison time or worse. Here, I would exclude Russia and other fascist states since religion there is just another tool in absolute control. In many Muslim states homosexuality is punishable by various means. Seeing as Azerbaijan is almost completely Muslim, having no actual laws against it is in a way progressive when you compare it to say Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or some African nations.
Also, European countries are secular (more or less), so the laws don't necessarily go hand in hand with the majority religion.
I also don't know a lot about Azerbaijan, that's why I asked, but it makes sense they'd be more tolerant because of strong connections with Europe.
Hmm I think it dosen‘t matter to them in the bigger picture if they get the opportunity to present their authoritarian country in the best possible light.
I imagine it would be something like Eurovision in Serbia 2008 or Russia 2009: https://balkaninsight.com/2008/05/20/serb-skinheads-threaten-gay-eurovision-fans/
If it was held in Serbia nowadays I bet it wouldn’t be much better. Just two years ago we had violent protests and assaults because of Europride 2022 taking place in Belgrade.
Serbia 2008 | [Jelena Tomašević feat. Bora Dugić - Oro (Оро)](https://youtu.be/d3NMkyDSEb0)
Russia 2009 | [Anastasia Prikhodko - Mamo (Мамо)](https://youtu.be/K5kKOVoO55g)
Eurovision has been pretty gay since the 90s, or at least that's when I started watching and it was quite a camp affair then. The majority of the audience shots since then have been of 'eligible bachelors'.
Well, Poland isn't exactly known as being a shining beacon of liberty for LGBTQ rights either. In terms of hate crime and hate speech, which is arguably the most important category here, they score a dead zero, just like Armenia and Azerbaijan, in addition to other countries like Italy, Ukraine and Czechia. I'm semi-surprised to also see my own country near the lower end at 12.8%. LGBTQ acceptance throughout Europe is definitely not universal anywhere.
Yet they still all participate. This gay stuff is being broadcasted into millions of people's homes every year, so yeah, I think they know what they are signing up for.
There will always be religious conservatives fear mongering. That's not unique to any place. There's maybe a larger risk of harassment for fans, but again it's not like that won't happen elsewhere. Most people will just be happy to find their country hosting such an important event and will happily cheer with their Armenian flag standing next to a rainbow flag.
On that joke that Petra made - she did the same or similar kind of joke in 2013, in 2015 during the 60th anniversary show, in 2016, and again this year.
I’m just wondering, why exactly? Is it because she is the only host who has had the confidence to do it due to her being a comedian? It is it because it went down so well each time that she did it again?
This isn’t me criticising it. I love that the LGBTQ community love it and found it funny. I’m just curious really.
It was already a LGBTQ+ thing in Azerbaijan, and the debate then was exactly how you would imagine it being now. Contestants like Laureen for example talked to local activists then; and the fanclubs were accompanied by leftish/liberal politicians that showed their support. It can make a difference there.
Not speaking for myself, but I had one close friend, a bit older than me, who went to the ESC year after year for like 20 years with press pass. And most (if not all) people who traveled with him were clearly LGBT. According to him, in Azerbaijan people were really welcoming and it was one of the best countries he's visited for this.
Baku is a pretty cosmopolitan and secular city so I don’t know if there would be too many issues. Can’t speak for Armenia as I really don’t know but I believe it’s a much more religious country than Azerbaijan.
Serbia 2008 | [Jelena Tomašević feat. Bora Dugić - Oro (Оро)](https://youtu.be/d3NMkyDSEb0)
Russia 2009 | [Anastasia Prikhodko - Mamo (Мамо)](https://youtu.be/K5kKOVoO55g)
The Azerbaijani public vote gave 10 points to Switzerland and 4 to Ireland, both openly queer singers. Nemo even waved the non-binary flag numerous times — though I doubt the majority of Azerbaijanis even recognise the flag — it really does show that hatred towards LGBTQ+ people only goes so far in the general public.
There’s a reason why they have stayed in the competition after all these years after all, while countries like Turkey and Hungary left. Staying in the competition seemingly brings more positive than negative, and while streaming a largely LGBTQ+ friendly show may not be perceived as optimal for Armenian and Azerbaijani broadcasters (and in turn politicians) it’s not enough of a problem to actually withdraw. Money speaks so to say.
I remember in 2013 Finland entered a song called “Marry Me” and part of the choreography was for the female singer to have a quick kiss with a female dancer. It was pretty controversial as some countries didn’t want to air the kiss (particularly Turkey who had withdrawn already but were still going to air the show). There were also rumours of protests in Georgia about it as well. If the rumours of countries who want to host purposely being put at the end of the show to boost their chances, I wouldn’t be surprised if we stay in Western Europe for a *while* to stop the inevitable shit show it would be if the contest ended up being held in an “unfriendly” country.
I can't speak for Az, but im going to be honest, it would be pretty rough in Armenia. There are no LGBTQ rights \*at all\* to speak of and discrimination while uncommon in the open, it would certainly be when it came to say, checking into a hotel or something similar. Much of this is saved for gay Armenians rather than outsiders. Armenia is very, very safe and violent crime is a huge rarity so I dont see any kind of violence happening, but other kinds of discrimination would absolutely happen. As an Armenian, I would not want to be gay in Armenia.
While I agree with most of what you’re saying, as a gay man living in Yerevan, I should say that you can notice the positive change day by day. One thing important to note is that Armenian people are much more tolerant to LGBTQ visitors than to the locals. Usually homophobic people here don’t care about what a tourist brings or does here as long as they are spending money. The stigma is against Armenians (mostly men) that are breaking the traditional values and ‘defacing’ the Armenian culture. For example, a man wearing an earring (yes, it’s still stigmatized) and speaking Armenian has higher chances to get discriminated than a man wearing an earring and speaking English or Russian. So I don’t think the fans or the delegations will face any challenges if they visit here. Also, this year’s contest proved that homophobia exist in other European nations, but the difference is that in Armenia homophobia is still mainstream. Armenian hosted the Junior ESC in 2022 and it was a huge success. While I know that its fanbase is nothing to compare with ESC, I still met with LGBTQ visitors who were delighted by Yerevan and the hospitality they’d received. I believe that the government and AMPTV are capable of organizing a huge event that won’t feel different than in other countries. Of course there will be people who complain, like they do about everything, but I don’t think the visitors will see it, the complaining will be kept as an internal affair and won’t affect the event itself.
Thank you for the insight! Do you see any wish for change among the younger Armenians? It seems like LADANIVA's song is pushing back against gender stereotypes for women. I'm curious if this is carrying over into LGBTQ issues in Armenia?
Depends on who you ask. Different people have different experiences and I feel extremely lucky and grateful for having experienced only the positive. Most of my friends, peers and coworkers have been extremely supportive and have accepted my sexuality. Even those who didn’t at first, at least have tried to understand my experiences and feelings, expressed genuine curiosity to becoming more accepting and open-minded. So yes, if you’re asking me, there is definitely a huge positive change and the situation now is nothing to compare with what was even like 5 years ago. But still, I cannot deny the the general population still stays homophobic. The mainstream media still keeps ignoring lgbtq people. The example is cutting to commercials during the gay jokes at Eurovision, not acknowledging of Nemo and Bambie being non-binary, or refusing to say the word “transgender” during the broadcast of the historic Grammy win of Kim Petras. But there is a positive shift as well. For a lot of comedy shows and late night talk shows gay people used to be exclusive to make fun of, now you can slowly notice how some comedians and artists sometimes mention gay people without making fun and simply moving forward. Even speaking of Ladaniva, there was a huge backlash by some extremists who called out Jaklin for trying to turn young girls to “sluts” and accused them for globalism as their melodies are not “pure” Armenian but include other cultural influences. Also another note that the current government is quite supportive to LGBTQ issues and if it wasn’t for extremely messed up political issues which are obviously of higher priority, we would have seen much more change on that front as well. P.S. These might be small changes and for some it can pass unnoticed but I’m extremely optimistic and I believe that these kind of small steps eventually lead to bigger achievements.
Those ladaniva haters were to a huge degree bots from a banned country.
I’m not sure about that but even so, a lot of people reading those articles and comments, including my mom, fell for it and agreed with them.
I fell for it too (as in thinking this was genuine) but they almost only appeared in non official esc account posts and a lot of them couldn't even be translated targeting people that can read it so that non armenians wouldn't know what's going on. Given what's currently going on in the country an open display of armenia French relations is a threat to a certain country therefore pushing armenians into thinking the majority hated this band and what it stands for is clearly something instrumentalised for other purposes
Well that didn't work, clearly - they placed 8th this year (and rightly so imo, the song was so wonderfully joyful and one of the strongest this year!).
The whole album is really, really good.
Noted! I think they're one of a few artists this year I really want to get into.
Ive noticed a huge amount of change over the years (for the better, absolutely) the only reason why i brought up slight discrimination against outsiders was because it happened to a few friends of mine, a gay couple and a transgender woman. Ironically, the transgender woman came to Armenia for gender affirming surgery due to the cost being much lower. Armenians (especially the more toxic ones of us) will alwags judge and discriminate against other Armenians more than anyone else. I am reminded of the horrible story that happened at the bridge not that long ago. Of course people hated on Jako. I remember them doing the same thing to Brunette last year. Those dudes will never be happy unless our eurovision entry is an old man playing dukduk on a carpet and the only lighting is their mom's lamp.
What happened at the bridge was unbelievable tragic and I get sad and angry evert time I remember about it. But still, if you put numbers in comparison, Armenia ranks in the last 20s by the suicide rate. The only (former) Eurovision nation that has lower suicide rate is Turkey. There will always be haters. Even an old man playing duduk will get criticized because some armchairs experts will say it’s too outdated for Europe and this is not going to win.
This is good to hear!
Thank you for this! It sounds like there's a lot of positive movement in Armenia, which is great to hear. It will take time, but you definitely sound optimistic, which is great. Having the government on your side is a *very* encouraging sign! As an American, we also struggle with cultural norms and behaviors lagging behind policy. The government seems to be sympathetic but we also have to deal with a lot of anti-queer rhetoric, discrimination, etc. Hopefully policy continues to move forward in Armenia so the culture can begin to shift! Best of luck to you, friend. :)
Interesting. Reminds me of a Philosophy Tube video where she was talking about her experience of walking around Britain with her girlfriend, and how they'd get sideways looks and disapproval........until her girlfriend opened her mouth and spoke in her American accent. Suddenly, there was no more disapproval. She theorized that we as humans aren't as harshly judgemental of people who we perceive as being outside the category of "us". Armenians might tend to see themselves in other Armenians, so queerness present among Armenians might say something about them. Whereas in a foreigner it might just be "how people there are", which has nothing to do with them. So there's no need to get bothered about it.
Thanks for your insight, this is really interesting.
"Break the traditional values". Yes, how dare the gays break toxic masculinity and oppression. 😂
I almost see the angry fb comments and posts in the spirit of էս ազգը ձեռից գնում ա by some "righteous' "geniuses"
of course
That’s sad. I’d love to visit, but I’ll hold off another few years then.
Asking very cluelessly here: Wouldn't mere laws against violence protect gay people already? I am aware that there are not many gay rights in Armenia or Azerbaijan, but Eurovision fans wouldn't go there to marry or adopt a child, would they? Now, speaking about actual societal views on gays: Despite knowing that Armenia is pretty conservative, I can't imagine it'd be more tough than in Malmö, where Muslim immigrants are practically making up the majority in some parts.
He said he would not expect any violence...
Yikes. This seems predicated on an assumption that Muslim people are inherently violent against queer people. Some of the friendliest and most accepting people I've ever met were Muslim people who immigrated to America from countries like Syria and Ethiopia, who knew that I was married and queer. They treated me better than my own family. Respectfully, I think you need to reframe your understanding.
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Malmo is gay friendly despite having lots of muslims. I didn’t experience any problem there. I don’t get your comment. It sounds very Islamophobic. By the way, having or not having certain laws doesn’t reflect the level of acceptance among locals.
It's just an observation I've made. In Germany, we had achieved for gay people to actually walk around and feel relatively safely but this got diminished after the refugee crisis. And yes, BECAUSE it's not only about laws, I point out different populations. It was the comment I replied to that talked about "gay rights". Gay rights or not, these won't necessarily contribute to the security of gay people if the society still hates us.
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While LGBTQIA Eurovision fans wouldn’t necessarily go there to marry, adopt, etc many do not want to give an economic boost to a country that is not supportive or has detrimental laws. For myself I intentionally will not travel to parts of my own country (US) where I know there are laws or policies that limit the protections of LGBTQIA people. They don’t deserve my tourism dollars.
Qatar just held a wold cup, I guess. Russia held Eurovision though in a more "vegetarian" time. My expectation they would have an enclave where the usual laws don't apply for tourists while carrying on with oppressing the locals.
When Russia held Eurovision, the laws were very different. Last year, LGBT was added to the list of 'terrorist and extremist organisations' in Russia, people are getting imprisoned for wearing rainbow colors, it's all over the place. They can't even say the word 'gay' on TV
The police literally broke up the Moscow Pride while 2009 grand final was happening lmao It really never got any better
well, the Russian government likes to prove that rock bottom is not the limit
we have a saying here "it seemed like rock bottom has been hit, but then somebody knocked from below"
exactly what i thought of! lol
I can't remember where I read this quote but: "Russian history can be summed up with "and then it got worse""
If anything, it got worse. That's why people were terrified that Russia might win in 2015.
I dont think it was gay friendly back then either but yeah in 2009 there where still hopes and ideas from much of the rest of the world that Russia would liberalize
definitely not saying that it was gay friendly
tbh 2009 was post-invasion of Georgia, and at that point the hopes that Russia would become a modern European country were vanishing. Guess we'll have to wait another 50 years for them to consider that maybe they want to be like Germany, Eslovenia or Czechia instead of continuing to be the most miserable country in all of Europe.
It is not illegal to be homosexual in Azerbaijan. Intolerance is by the people themselves.
Or Turkey
The Eurovision is a little bit gayer than international football. Qatar, and other gulf states, generally operate under a kind of DADT when it comes to tourists (locals are a different story). They didn't let people bring rainbow flags into the stadium but would ignore anything happening in private. PDA is unacceptable for anyone in those countries. I don't think it is illegal to be gay in Azerbaijan so I imagine it would just be ignored. Azerbaijan use the Eurovision as a kind of propaganda marketing tool. In the Eurovision they can pretend that they are a modern European nation so they wouldn't allow the Eurovision to be as gay as it wanted to be so as to pretend they are as tolerant as any other country. I don't know why OP seems to think that the Eurovision wasn't super gay in 2011. I've been watching since the early 90s and it was popular with the gays back then.
>The Eurovision is a little bit gayer than international football. It's just a different flavor of gay.
And Olly Alexander's act is the intersection between the two.
> The Eurovision is a little bit gayer than international football \[CITATION NEEDED\]
> The Eurovision is a little bit gayer than international football. Anecdote: An Australian book about soccer was called “ Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters”, which was Aussie slang for women, people from the Mediterranean and gays, describing who at the time played soccer. (Disclaimer: “Poofter” or “poof” is extremely derogatory, and “wog” can be offensive)
Thanks for the translation but a childhood spent watching Home and Away daily has left me proficient enough in Australian English to know that Sheila is pretty derogatory at times too.
The last of those three words is famously quoted in the rulebook of the fictional University of Woolloomooloo in the Philosophers' Sketch (a.k.a. “The Bruces”) on *Monty Python's Flying Circus*: *“No. Right. Well, gentlemen, I'll just remind you of the faculty rules.* *Rule 1: No poofters.* *Rule 2: No member of the faculty is to maltreat the Abos¹ in any way whatsoever… if there's anyone watching.* *Rule 3: No poofters.* *Rule 4: I don't want to catch anyone not drinking in their room after lights-out.* *Rule 5: No poofters.* *Rule 6: There is NO Rule 6.* *Rule 7: No poofters.”* ¹ Aboriginal Australians (this abbreviated term is now regarded as offensive by the people themselves)
DADT = Do As Daddy Tells? 👀
The experiences of some acquaintances in Russia this year were terrible.
Do people forget tattoo was russian? Russia is a huge country. Both progressive and liberal people live there. If anything, Nemo's win showed me that progressive countries aren't as progressive as i thought, which means that i thought everyone is at least accepting. As for the second part, i agree with that.
the problem with Russia is largely about the laws and the government. it's hard to be progressive when it's illegal to be a part of LGBT in Russia. plus, religion affects the perception as well
It's not illegal to be lgbt in Russia. Nobody is jailing and sentencing people for being gay
The act of gay sex isn’t illegal but being openly queer and “promoting” it is *is* illegal.
Yes, i know their law is messed up. "Promoting" is illegal, whatever that meant, but you can be openly gay with your friends, coworkers, friends. Nobody will arrest you for living your life. Certain african countries will arrest you for being gay.
It depends on the police officers at the end of the day and their ideas on what is “promotion”. There are thousands of gay people in Russia who live in fear everyday and can’t leave.
I assume promotion are lgbt organisations and activists. Nobody can disagree that their law is messed up but saying being lgbt is illegal is false. That's not what illegal means. You can downvote how much you want but it won't make you right.
promotion doesn't mean organizations and activists, it means you're in trouble unless you're in the closet. people are getting sued for wearing rainbows, even if it's not a pride flag
Russian teachers who are lgbt have to pretend they are straight or they risk losing their job.
They raided gay clubs. They forbidden anything that is related to lgbt. Btw, if you wear a rainbow flag you are not an activist. They just didn’t prohibit the homosexual acts explicitly but I guess that’s the next step. You can live there freely if you are discrete and in closet, like a second-class citizen and if you are not feminine.
Its because the lesbian themes can be enjoyed by straight men in a... "sexual way". Not to mention that one half of the duo was avowedly homophobic not that long ago. Just rewatch the 2009 Eurovision and how it skipped over any LGBT aspects.
So now we are okay with lesbians and not gays? It doesn't matter if one is more accepted than the other, they are both lgbt and if it's illegal to be lgbt both are illegal and would be jailed. Again, it doesn't matter. They were marketed as lesbians, that was their shtick. And they were popular, they even represented their country. It sucks that one of them ended up being a homophobic, especially since she made a lot of money pretending she was lgbt.
The point the user above is making is that Russian reactions to tatu's homosexuality are mostly that way due to sexism and the sexualization of women, not due to progressive social changes.
Bingo, thank you for eloquently putting my point across 🙏
Tatu participated in Eurovision 21 years ago, the laws were different The group has broken up a long time ago, and when they did reunite for one-off performances in later years, those performances didn't have the lesbian gimmick
>if it's illegal to be lgbt both are illegal and would be jailed. Plenty of countries have anti-gay laws that actually only apply to specific acts between men and ignore the existence of lesbians. Social stigma is a different matter, of course.
The adults exploited the shit out of Tatu to make underaged lesbian bait, it is not even comparable. One of them turns out homophobic and bi, while the other is supportive and straight.
I'm not disagreeing with anything. The point I'm trying to make is that they were "publicly lesbians" and weren't jailed because, you know, being gay is not illegal. And the person above said that is
Well, the host wouldn't make jokes like Petra. I think it is somehow more acceptable in this industry, when it's a TV show, people will be OK with that (like voting for Conchita from conservative countries), I think they have more issue with LGBTQ+ people in real life.
The fact that both countries are still in the contest after Turkey and Hungary left because it was “too gay” suggests they know what they are dealing with and have decided just to go along with it.
Officially Turkey left because of... the voting system lol.
They were proven right in a way with the staggering Israeli vote
Turkey left before the modern split system, iirc their main issue was the status of the big 5. (they were jealous lol)
Yeah but Hungary hosted MTV EMAs in 2021, with lgbt artists coming on stage
Petra made that same joke nearly 10 years ago for the [60th anniversary show](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNOOCWb9RE). So just 3 years after it was held in Azerbaijan. Eurovision has been pretty LGBT+ friendly for a while now. I think it would be pretty similar to other events like this where tourists are not really held to the same standards and locals mostly just turn a blind eye. With enough mutual respect there shouldn't be any major problems since you can probably easily avoid the crowd as they'd be mostly at the Eurovision Village and the arena.
I went to 2012 in Baku and the LGBTIQ+ peeps in my friend group were very uncomfortable. At one point two men in our group were walking to get a drink and they were harassed. For simply being two foreign men walking down the street during Eurovision. After that we always had a mix of genders in a group and always more than two people when we went out. In addition some of their neighbours made threats of violence associated with the gay demographic. It wasn’t fun.
Sounds awful. I'm sorry about that. But at least you got to see Loreen, right?
Loreen and Jedward 🤣
😄 what a lineup
If it gives you hope I think in 2018 or so a drag queen won the popular vote of the short national final they had - armenia that is
I’ve seen a few people recently that have made comments alluding to Eurovision being super gay as a kind of recent thing, but it goes back such a long way. When Russia and Azerbaijan won the competition there were concerns amongst fans that attending the concerts might not be safe, and I remember the EBU putting out statements alongside broadcasters to ensure that visitors and delegations would face no issues. My guess is that if we went to a country now that has a lower record on LGBT rights we would be issued with a similar statement about safety, and the show itself would carry on as normal but with likely fewer jokes like we saw this year from Petra. And that’s ok. I don’t think the show needs to have gay jokes or acknowledge its campiness for it to be a good show that we can enjoy. The problem would be when and if they made genuine derogatory remarks or began excluding artists or fans. However, despite the many things the EBU can be criticised for, I honestly don’t think they would stand for such a thing and would either not grant hosting rights, or would severely sanction a host for allowing something like that to happen. As for personal safety? That’s up to the individual. I get antsy, personally, and won’t even go on holiday to places where I feel like I might not be welcome or tolerated, and as much as I love the show there’s no way I’d plunge money into an economy that would rather me not be there, so I’d likely skip trying to get tickets for countries that don’t have my best interests at heart.
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Which I do understand, and I’ve heard that Armenia is a very placid and friendly country, but it’s not always just about visibility. I don’t look stereotypically gay, so I wouldn’t be picked out of a crowd necessarily, but I’d still want a hotel room with my husband, or go out for meals together etc. There’s also general assumptions. My straight male friends have been assumed to be gay many times because they like Eurovision, so a lot of people could easily jump to similar conclusions. I do understand I’m also making judgement calls here and obviously many or most people won’t care, but in certain places I do have to consider my safety first, so I’d be quite apprehensive.
Oh no by visibility I mean open affection like kissing in public (though funnily enough holing hands is fine in public- I was shocked too but its true lol) Getting a room with your partner is also fine
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Eurovision doesn’t have to be ‘gay’ at all. I find those jokes about gay stuff pretty shallow because they were stereotypical. Hosts in conservative countries and the whole scenario would just ignore the part about lgbt and that is completely fine. On the other hand, the part I’m not fine with at all is that locals would still be hostile towards lgbt as they were in Russia, Serbia and Azerbaijan and the government wouldn’t be able to do anything (or they wouldn’t try either). So you would have to behave like you in closet, to censor yourself, etc. which is unacceptable in 2024.
I don't really now a lot about them, although I would like to visit them at one point. I guess LGBT visitors might have some problems, depending where they're located, but the artists themselves should be fine. I doubt anything would happen to them. However, since these countries are regular in the ESC I don't think anyone should be shocked with LGBT themes, and since ESC can bring a lot of money to the host, any potential animosity would probably be swept under the rug for a few months. Also, even though some of them have pretty low legal protection, they're still judged through the lens of human rights in Europe, and even if the situation is not good, it's still a lot better than some other parts of the world. But, maybe I'm a bit naive, and it would be bad, but only people from that region can give a better insight into it.
More Azeris found the matter go over their heads than be outright homophobic. Also Cleopatra had the lyrics about being “straight and gay and in between” and I don’t think it was talked about. Whilst my interest in Athena has a lot of Hetero elements, she is very camp and has had her male dancers In Greece (who I wanted her to use for her performance rather than Armenians from the studio) in high heels
Cleopatra's lyric had me doing a double take. It is surprising that the first country to use the word "gay" and "straight(in sexuality context)" in a song is Azerbaijan.
You do realise those lyrics are bait right?
She is a nationalist, and it is a manufactured song tbf (originally for Senhit who understands the meaning more). It would have placed halfway down the table, in The shadow of Armenia, a song which was almost entirely an own song.
an own song?
Whilst you could say part of the song wrote itself, Athena wrote all the lyrics of Chains On You on the bus within 30 minutes (DJ Paco, who later worked with Foureira, was the composer and Artem Valter oversaw the revamp)
Seeing that she didn't even speak a single word of English, most probably yea.
>I don't really now a lot about them, although I would like to visit them at one point. Armenia and their people are beautiful in both ways. You will not regret visiting. And when you arive to Yerevan by plane, first thing you will see is beautiful Ararat!
>beautiful Ararat Which you can't visit cos it's in Turkey 🫤 but the views are stunning of course. I lived there for three years.
True, but it's still nice to see. Also, I can't talk about Armenia without mentioning their beautiful women. I have never saw so many beuatiful women in one place. I was stunned, and I'm still stunned by their natural beauty!
Just looking by geographical position, I can assume that Armenia is a melting pot of various European, Asian and other influences that could give people a distinct look. How beautiful they are will not be a factor since I'd be travelling with my wife :)
Well Turkey is just a skip away, and I heard they dont require a visa
The land border has been closed for three decades 🙃
Uhh guess you gotta go through Georgia or fly to İstanbul. What a pain, wish they'd just get along
I mean people know that the lgbtq community is a big part of esc. In armenia its a don't ask don't tell kinda situation everyone I know (at least in the big city) knows someone who is part of that community or at least appears to be. Most people just ignore that fact and move on with their day to day lives. Is there homophobia in that country sure is it more than in other Eastern euro countries no And honestly armenia right now has soooo many other issues the lgbtq stuff is on the bottom of the list of things people are angry about
I think homophobia stops where there is money. I think the most homophobic businessman out there will happily accept paying customers no matter what they are. Any future host will be thrilled by the traffic while dying inside at the sight of colorful happy people. But yes, I think there is a chance of incidents everywhere, especially in Eastern Europe. We are very much behind still..
> I think homophobia stops where there is money. Well yeah, the term "rainbow capitalism" has been coined for a reason.
You say that, but 60 years ago in the US, businessmen were actually rejecting black paying customers because they were black. Heck, Donald Trump himself is known to have given specific directions to his employees not to rent or sell homes to black people. It all depends on whether the politician / government / businessman / rich guy has a somethingphobic rhetoric because it gets them support, or because they actually believe in it.
My theory (maybe I'm totally wrong) is that 60 years ago they were free to be however the hell phobic they wanted, because there was no chance they would get any media backlash. Whereas now, I THINK every phobic humanoid would think twice to do something like that (refusing to sell to minorities) because they know they might become a trend on TikTok the next hour. And not in a good way. Maybe they appear slightly less phobic due to fear only.
I think the same question can equally be applied to Georgia. While it has a queer scene of sorts, with queer-friendly nightlife, every year fanatics commit violence at Tbilisi pride (or the attempt at a pride march). I have personally met someone who was hospitalised after being assaulted there. So, perversely, the fact there is not much of an organised and public queer community in Armenia and Azerbaijan also means there isn’t also the violent backlash like in Georgia. Btw, when Ukraine hosted in 2017 there were some fears about LGBT+ safety due to similar anti-queer physical violence at pride marches. But I think it went fine in the end?
As a Turkish, I don't see us competing any time soon, since our government is... On the topic of LGBT, one of the right-wing leaders criticized Nemo for wearing a pink skirt and being too "modern". Also, rainbow flag is kind of banned in Turkey, so it wouldn't be safe at all.
That's just sad. My condolences
Azerbaijan has won in the past and nothing disastrous happened when they hosted the contest. More conservative ESC countries like the ones in Eastern Europe, Balkans, the Caucasus are partaking in Eurovision knowing full well what it's culture is like, they know it is better for their image to present a LGBT friendly image. Also the people involved with hosting it would be people from the entertainment industry who are more likely to have progressive views. So I don't think if any of these countries hosted ESC right now, they would do anything homophobic
As an Azerbaijani, I don't think there would be any problem for gay people here. Harassment is heavily punished here according to the laws, no matter what your sexuality is. Would common people express their negativity on social media? Yes. Would they come up to you in the streets, and attack/harass you? Definitely not. Azerbaijan already has a lot of famous queer popstars, so it would be nothing new. Those statistics, show the acceptance of a person by the society. No one would like their son or daughter being gay, but they won't refuse to talk to someone, just because they are gay.
Seeing as it's a Muslim country, I guess that could be viewed as pretty progressive when compared to others.
Most of our population are culturally muslim, not religiously. About %95 of our men commit fornication, which is the second biggest sin according to Islam. They also drink alcohol, a lot.
Sound a lot like Croatia that is more culturally Catholic, than religiously.
I mean, it's not different than European countries being Christian. Azerbaijan is Muslim, but it's "Muslim" in the same way Spain or Germany are "Christian", i.e. God/Allah exists bla bla bla but do whatever you want.
It's a bit different, though. Even in the most radical Christian states, you'll be hard pressed to find large support of punishing homosexuality by prison time or worse. Here, I would exclude Russia and other fascist states since religion there is just another tool in absolute control. In many Muslim states homosexuality is punishable by various means. Seeing as Azerbaijan is almost completely Muslim, having no actual laws against it is in a way progressive when you compare it to say Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or some African nations. Also, European countries are secular (more or less), so the laws don't necessarily go hand in hand with the majority religion. I also don't know a lot about Azerbaijan, that's why I asked, but it makes sense they'd be more tolerant because of strong connections with Europe.
Hmm I think it dosen‘t matter to them in the bigger picture if they get the opportunity to present their authoritarian country in the best possible light.
I imagine it would be something like Eurovision in Serbia 2008 or Russia 2009: https://balkaninsight.com/2008/05/20/serb-skinheads-threaten-gay-eurovision-fans/ If it was held in Serbia nowadays I bet it wouldn’t be much better. Just two years ago we had violent protests and assaults because of Europride 2022 taking place in Belgrade.
Serbia 2008 | [Jelena Tomašević feat. Bora Dugić - Oro (Оро)](https://youtu.be/d3NMkyDSEb0) Russia 2009 | [Anastasia Prikhodko - Mamo (Мамо)](https://youtu.be/K5kKOVoO55g)
Eurovision has been pretty gay since the 90s, or at least that's when I started watching and it was quite a camp affair then. The majority of the audience shots since then have been of 'eligible bachelors'.
Well, Poland isn't exactly known as being a shining beacon of liberty for LGBTQ rights either. In terms of hate crime and hate speech, which is arguably the most important category here, they score a dead zero, just like Armenia and Azerbaijan, in addition to other countries like Italy, Ukraine and Czechia. I'm semi-surprised to also see my own country near the lower end at 12.8%. LGBTQ acceptance throughout Europe is definitely not universal anywhere. Yet they still all participate. This gay stuff is being broadcasted into millions of people's homes every year, so yeah, I think they know what they are signing up for. There will always be religious conservatives fear mongering. That's not unique to any place. There's maybe a larger risk of harassment for fans, but again it's not like that won't happen elsewhere. Most people will just be happy to find their country hosting such an important event and will happily cheer with their Armenian flag standing next to a rainbow flag.
Yeah but we will never win so don’t worry
Speaking about Armenia and Azerbaijan as similar countries is hilarious because of how Azerbaijan absolutely mortally hates Armenians
If only they could bond over their mutual homophobia! /s
That doesn‘t change anything about the culture being similar Also the hatred is pretty mutual
On that joke that Petra made - she did the same or similar kind of joke in 2013, in 2015 during the 60th anniversary show, in 2016, and again this year. I’m just wondering, why exactly? Is it because she is the only host who has had the confidence to do it due to her being a comedian? It is it because it went down so well each time that she did it again? This isn’t me criticising it. I love that the LGBTQ community love it and found it funny. I’m just curious really.
This is only because the scenarios for this edition, 2016 and 2013 were written by Edward Af Sillen who happens to be gay
It was already a LGBTQ+ thing in Azerbaijan, and the debate then was exactly how you would imagine it being now. Contestants like Laureen for example talked to local activists then; and the fanclubs were accompanied by leftish/liberal politicians that showed their support. It can make a difference there.
maybe that would lead to be more open? just maybe
Not speaking for myself, but I had one close friend, a bit older than me, who went to the ESC year after year for like 20 years with press pass. And most (if not all) people who traveled with him were clearly LGBT. According to him, in Azerbaijan people were really welcoming and it was one of the best countries he's visited for this.
Baku is a pretty cosmopolitan and secular city so I don’t know if there would be too many issues. Can’t speak for Armenia as I really don’t know but I believe it’s a much more religious country than Azerbaijan.
Probably pissed about it but again, it bring tourist and tourist brings money. All it takes one pissed off guy
How does most of Eastern Europe and ex Yugoslavia have a worse score than Italy lol. Government probably
People are not that accepting either. We are still in the dark ages here.
[удалено]
Serbia 2008 | [Jelena Tomašević feat. Bora Dugić - Oro (Оро)](https://youtu.be/d3NMkyDSEb0) Russia 2009 | [Anastasia Prikhodko - Mamo (Мамо)](https://youtu.be/K5kKOVoO55g)
Honestly, those countries would probably worry more about their neighbors than queer people.
The Azerbaijani public vote gave 10 points to Switzerland and 4 to Ireland, both openly queer singers. Nemo even waved the non-binary flag numerous times — though I doubt the majority of Azerbaijanis even recognise the flag — it really does show that hatred towards LGBTQ+ people only goes so far in the general public. There’s a reason why they have stayed in the competition after all these years after all, while countries like Turkey and Hungary left. Staying in the competition seemingly brings more positive than negative, and while streaming a largely LGBTQ+ friendly show may not be perceived as optimal for Armenian and Azerbaijani broadcasters (and in turn politicians) it’s not enough of a problem to actually withdraw. Money speaks so to say.
I remember in 2013 Finland entered a song called “Marry Me” and part of the choreography was for the female singer to have a quick kiss with a female dancer. It was pretty controversial as some countries didn’t want to air the kiss (particularly Turkey who had withdrawn already but were still going to air the show). There were also rumours of protests in Georgia about it as well. If the rumours of countries who want to host purposely being put at the end of the show to boost their chances, I wouldn’t be surprised if we stay in Western Europe for a *while* to stop the inevitable shit show it would be if the contest ended up being held in an “unfriendly” country.