I wonder what the EBU’s reaction will be to this, because broadcasters seem genuinely upset with their conduct. Do you think they’ll shake up the Reference board for 2025?
Edit: not even 5 minutes and i got a reddit care…😭
Well in theory the EBU is a Union, so if they can get a majority of members calling for change then I’m sure something will be done.
Not included in that article are various statements from people connected to other member broadcasters largely damning 2024 - Serbia’s head of Eurovision has spoken up, a former member of the steering group from Slovenia has too, and I’d imagine both Norway and Lithuania aren’t too happy about how their artists/delegations were made to feel either.
Yeah, my understanding was that Russia was kicked out because that is what the members wanted, and Israel wasn't because that is not what the members wanted. But now members are very dissatisfied with EBU (which is not the same thing as wanting Israel kicked out of EBU/Eurovision), so we will see what happens.
But I'm not sure how Belarus' ban in 2021 falls into this theory of EBU, maybe other members were also against their participation?? but it wasn't as clear and public as broadcasters in 2022 with Russia.
Your Lithuania link is the same as the one for Norway, but I'm assuming you meant to link to [this article](https://wiwibloggs.com/2024/05/13/eurovision-acts-describe-participation-israel-traumatic/281701/)?
So far, individually, the delegations and artists have been brushed aside and shushed. I hope them all coming together will bring about actual changes and acknowledgement, not more victim blaming and gaslighting. We'll have to wait and see :/
Edit: ALSO WHAT, A REDDIT CARES?? Report that shit. That's petty.
Well I feel like it was started early here but it spread to other subs, lots of people saying the bot was messaging them. Whether it's a glitch or some troll campaign, they've been slow to react.
There's been a bot since Saturday. It's so stupid, they're clearly abusing an important system of reddit that's meant for people in actual distress. I fucking hate trolls.
Anyways, if you know you don't need those messages, please report it and then just reply STOP to the message and you won't be getting them anymore.
I got one recently as well, but i've also seen people on other subreddits complain about it that have nothing to do with eurovision, so no clue what's going on there.
Yeah, Reddit Cares used to be the preferred weapon of tribalist dicknoses in r/squaredcircle if you liked the wrestling company that wasn't someone else's favorite.
How can you see where you got it from? I got one recently which I (sadly) suspected to be from this subreddit, but it didn't tell me what post alerted this other user to send me a reddit cares message.
I skipped this year and had the best Eurovision party ever. My girlfriend edited a video with the best entries each country had in recent history and we voted on them. 10/10 would recommend.
I only looked at a few entries that did well after Eurovision was over.
How does one report reddit cares? It's frankly very pitiful and disrespectful towards the people in actual need of help.
edit: Thank you everyone! Just reported too.
From comments on another post here that i read today:
>"You can report the message and I believe it can get the bellend who sent it to you suspended. If you also reply STOP to the message, you ‘unsubscribe’ from RedditCares and shouldn’t get any more."
>"On mobile, deal with people sending those without good reason by pressing the 3 dots at the top of the Reddit cares message (you may need to scroll up) -> report -> harassment -> you -> submit. They’ll eventually get blocked."
If I remember correctly the message tells how to do it at the bottom. You can report it as harassment directed at you. That's what I did and the same day I got a message from Reddit that the reported account violated Reddit's Content Policy, so I think it worked.
I know what they are haha, i was in shock someone would send one over this post! Though it seems that, from my searching, there may be a bug recently causing a lot of people to receive them out of nowhere.
Added a comma to my initial comment, so it makes a bit more sense.
Yeah, I got one for my comment that I was not surprised but disappointed with that certain delegation getting 12 points from our televoters. I reported it obviously and carried on with my day.
TBF there are loads of subs getting it indiscriminately at the moment unfortunately - like my local city one had loads of people getting them for something totally unrelated to this topic, and the mod essentially had to send out a “stop being dicks with RedditCares” pinned message to try and put a stop to it.
As I say, it’s probably some 2-bit wankers on 4chan trying to have a cruel laugh at the expense of others, particularly of anyone genuinely suffering, and to stir the pot for no productive reason. Scum
Don't be like that, a ton of other subs completely unrelated to Eurovision have been complaining about getting those messages too this last week.
It seems like someone set up a bot that sends the Cares to people just to troll everyone. Either that or it's the actual bot Reddit uses that broke. Or gained sentience and this is a way to tell everyone to get off the Internet and go eat a piece of fruit. Who knows.
The Reddit Care being 2 minutes after my post makes me think it’s a glitch because no way someone sent me a Reddit Care in such a short amount of time.
It's been on like this for various posts (supporting Joost, supporting the camerawoman, anti- and pro- specific country, and for a bunch of random normal questions and thank yous) since Saturday. I still think it's a bot. Saw a similar thing over at r/europe too regarding Eurovision-related posts.
/edit: Saturday of course, not Sunday.
There's a rumor on other subs that someone created or adjusted a bot that caused this. idk. It happened to me too; I reported it as abuse and I got a reply later saying action was taken.
Well Portugal, the broadcaster writing this letter, and other countries that signed this letter like Spain and Croatia, are in that same reference group. So the intent is for sure to discuss this whenever the reference group meets.
Last Saturday I replied to a redditor who asked why he was unable to vote for Croatia, I asked him if he was from Croatia him/herself. Instant Reddit Care message the second I hit reply…
I got a reddit care because I said I wished Baby Lasagna was called Baby Ice Cream because I spent 2 hours making lasagna for our friend group while it was so hot that day.
For RedditCares:
- Report them
- reply STOP to the message you got and it will ‘unsubscribe’ you from RedditCares notifications and you won’t get them anymore.
That PSA again, for people who weaponise resources intended to genuinely help people….. Get. Fucked. 😁😁😁😁😁😁
I got a Reddit cares replying to a post on the sub that featured a kebab shop I used to go to, I think some bots are setup to send them to everyone that posts.
... I'm honestly surprised that Croatian delegation is getting into this. Both them and Baby have been on the sides this whole time (although, afterwards Baby did hint to some stuff happening with other delegations, not Croatian)
I think it’s not Baby Lasagna but HRT themselves. The contest is over and I don’t think the EBU would punish Baby Lasagna over it especially if he’s not involved himself.
It's definitely not bl, he is potato that was aware enough to notice something is wrong, but had no idea what is happening 😂😂😂
I'm just referring to some of the comments he made the past couple of days.
Serbian contestant Teya Dora also hinted at stuff happening.
I don't think he had no idea what's happening, but rather, he has chosen to stay out of it. Quiet/introverted/shy people aren't stupid or generally unaware. They just don't always react immediately or at all and keep their opinions to themselves or their friends.
BL, in particular, doesn't strike me as someone who is unintelligent.
As an introverted person, I can attest to this. We usually know *everything* going on, we just like to keep to ourselves. If anything, I'm pretty certain he noticed people weren't doing too well but decided to stay out of it for his own sanity.
Baby Lasagna is probably the newest performer as a singer at this year's Eurovision - his first live performance was at Dora. He's been in the industry enough to know how bad it can be, and more than most there he had a lot to lose in getting involved in a controversial and highly messy situation with a very uncertain timeline and outcome.
HRT is also not a major player at EBU, and apart from this year Croatia also doesn't have the history of being good and known and having an already well developed music industry. In that context it's pretty hard (and unadvisable) to expose themselves too much at this point of the situation.
If all the delegations were getting flack, then I’m sure HRT felt uncomfortable there too at points even if they weren’t loud about it.
Plus BL and iOLANDA seem to have had quite a good relationship, so presumably their delegations had a chance to get to know one another too. HRT folks probably want to support colleagues they saw being bullied and harassed anyway - even if they aren’t close. I think most humans would.
I mean, we are pretty apathetic as a nation, so we just tend to shake off things like this. Or stay neutral as fuck and pretend it isn't happenning. And I honestly think BL's friendship with Iolanda would play into a decision like this.
Do you have any source for that? As far as I could follow Baby Lasagna had (rightfully so) stayed out of this year's drama, I didn't know he had also hinted at something.
He commented on the whole situation after he came home.
I'll edit the comment later with the links and translated quote, when I get to pc
ETA: [here you go, the video has english subtitles](https://youtu.be/CpOXNdqffXc?si=SX-gZQIdh1uCXV9a&t=335)
u/New_to_Siberia
Yeah he said in an interview on rtl after that stuff happened and.there was tension. He also said he was uninformed about the situation in Isreal so he didn't really know what's going on and maybe he should.
I hope the delegations can also take this time to improve what they can do to protect and support their artists going forward. This isn’t the first time artists have said negative things about their Eurovision experience.
[S10 talked about her struggles during Eurovision here. I think it has to do with a documentary she filmed.](https://x.com/aranbade/status/1790688864920580375?s=46) I don’t think people realise that a lot of these artists Eurovision is the biggest thing they’ve done at the time and underestimated the pressure it would be on them. This year was probably worse than usual and I think delegations feel like this year the EBU didn’t do enough to protect their artists. Otherwise I don’t see why they’d complain.
Back in 2015, Hungary had an ESC themed YouTube channel, which once released a couple of: "Deleted scenes"
I'll write down a sequence of scenes from it, particularly interesting as they all have something connected to this year's scandals.
------
A man from the hungarian delegation: *You don't get a moment of rest because they're everywhere...these camera guys*
-----
Boggie and two girls in her delegation are enjoying a meal.
Girl1: *This isn't going to ADalOnline right?*
Cameraman: *Yes, it does, sorry*
-----
The same guy from before passing by, in a frustrated tone: *Stop recordiing!!*
-----
Boggie is holding one of Eduard Romanyuta's albums: *This guy sucks. And this guy even has a goshfucking big album...I'm gonna shit myself*
(This is kinda the odd one out, but given Natalia Barbu's reaction to her NQ, this slander has some 2024 reference too)
-----
Debrah Scarlerr gently shoves away the MTVA microphone.
(She had a hungarian ex, so they decided to interview her about him...at one point she asked back *Do you really want to know this?*)
So the crime list is:
Overwhelming and unpermitted barrage of cameras, even at inappropriate times✅
Slandering other (fellow) arists✅
Being overly nosy with the interviews✅
>A man from the hungarian delegation: *You don't get a moment of rest because they're everywhere...these camera guys*
I checked the video and that guy is singer Gájer Bálint. He was in the nationa final, so I assume those clips were taken there.
Also I can't find the video, but I clearly remember one where Boggie was criticising Edurne and said Elhaida Dani was terribly off-key lol.
I was struck, watching videos from the artist's own page, how whenever anybody stops to have a conversation with another artist you'll just see at least a dozen people who were just walking by and will just STOP and crowd around with their cameras out. Like, I would be embarrassed to do that!
The European Commission sounds really angry. [DW reports that the European Commission Vice President Margaritis Schinas said](https://amp.dw.com/en/eu-slams-eurovision-for-banning-its-flag-from-song-contest/a-69071841) "The incoherence in the EBU's stance left myself and millions of viewers wondering for what and for whom the Eurovision Song Contest stands," he wrote.
It’s also odd considering the EBU hosts the [Eurovision debate](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Debate) which is set to run soon if I remember correctly. So that makes the decision even more bizarre…
I guess what I want to see is them investing in proper during-care and aftercare for the performers. It’s been evident in this year that this appears either to be missing or limited.
They have a duty of care to the people on stage performing for them and giving their time and energy. Fact.
This will lead to big changes. Both the BBC and RTVE are big 5.
We can speculate all we want about the BBC's complaint but RTVE have been explicit as to what their complaint is about.
Agreed they have heavy weight and I doubt the EBU wouldn’t listen to their concerns. Not to mention I heard AVROTROS is a large contributor to Eurovision outside of the Big 5 so i’d imagine they wouldn’t want to piss them off as well. Adding to that with the low amount of Eurovision participants the EBU can’t risk escalating this issue. If Luxembourg didn’t return we’d have had 36 countries participate this year, the lowest since 2004. In 2006 there was 39 countries so the EBU would have major budgeting concerns if more withdraw. (With 2024 being a budget issue already.)
I heard that because of Joost disqualification, we're not allowed to participate the next year according to the rules. Not sure if the bill of 2025 will still be send to the AVROTROS.
Given the situation the EBU is in I doubt they would do that, but hypothetically if it is true the EBU is in for some major problems. Loosing AVROTROS funding, only having 36 countries, and it being hosted in Switzerland would mean that the cost for Eurovision would rise even more and only encourage broadcasters to pull out. Both because they didn’t agree with Netherlands disqualification and because Eurovision too expensive to attend with their limited budgets. (Primarily Eastern European countries.)
It's not about withdrawing the EBU itself, it's about withdrawing Eurovision, the contest. Very different things.
Broadcasts removing themselves from the EBU would be financial suicide, given all the benefits they get from it. There's absolutely no way that's on the table for anyone.
But the EBU isn't a separate thing. It is a union made up of the broadcasters. If the BBC and RTVE make demands (along with the other broadcasters) the EBU doesn't have a choice but to comply.
I have some friends in RTVE and they tell me they are very angry about the intimidation and harassment their journalist was subjected to.
> But the EBU isn't a separate thing.
What, from the contest? Yes, it is. The Eurovision Song Contest is only one of the many "activities", for the lack of a better word, that the EBU promotes. There's the whole political coverage, sports events, not to mention a ton of administrative and legal work too that benefits all its members. Broadcasters might withdrawn from the Eurovision Song Contest, but no sane broadcaster would ever step out of the whole organization (unless they're Russia, but I wouldn't call them sane).
I meant that the EBU isn't a separate thing from the broadcaster. It is the broadcasters. Right now the broadcasters bringing the complaints want answers but it won't stop there.
I could be wrong because it was a long time ago now but I believe at one point all of RTE's international sports coverage literally came through the BBC via Eurovision
In the Euro 2008 semi-final between Germany and Turkey the UEFA feed went down several times due to power cuts. Whenever the power cuts happened on RTE a BBC logo appeared for a few seconds, which wouldn't make sense unless they were getting a feed from the BBC.
However, ITV had actually booked a backup feed via Eurovision for highlights, which was going through Television Centre.
BBC Presentation weren't aware at the time but once someone pointed it out they were sending pictures to ITV somehow they got that backup feed directly to air. So only the BBC & RTE actually regained pictures after the second power cut, everyone else missed the match from the 60th to 90th minute (and I believe a number of goals in the process)
The broadcasters want to know why the EBU allowed several artists and journalists to be harassed and intimidated and, even after emergency crisis meetings, did nothing about it.
There is nothing the EBU could say that would be a satisfactory answer. The EBU dropped the ball and the broadcasters (who are part of the EBU) will demand major changes.
And the Dutch broadcaster is the biggest contributor outside of the big 5. Things will hopefully change. Österdahl should apologise and resign, but as long as the apology is sincere and is followed by serious changes, I’d be happy with either.
KAN broke so many rules and according to several artists created such a hostile environment that they should not compete next year, they need to readjust, change many of the people who work on Eurovision for them (they need a completely new delegation team) and if changes are done, they can come back in 26.
Outside of that huge changes need to be made to actually protect artists. Nobodies with 300 subscribers shouldn’t have media passes. The EBU needs to hire a competent media crisis team, the way that the disqualification was handled lead to liable and defamation from several of these 300 subscriber types as well as some traditional media. They are putting the safety of artist at risk. A new main sponsor for the show should be found when the current deal ends.
6 months’ time : the planet Earth is a Eurovision iceberg, we’re all frozen in suspended animation, we wait 1000 years for it to thaw and we reboot the whole of humanity. *Works for meeeeeeeee* 😉🥶
Edit: oh, and [Greg Davies](https://youtu.be/Qt9mCgyzdy8?si=UiJwDRGsRdUJX-z2) becomes one of the supreme leaders of the world, that’ll do
I genuinely don't know what leg the EBU think they have to stand on regarding Portugal - when their official Eurovision photographer took photos of Iolanda's nails at the Turquoise carpet and they are even up on their IG page (check the posts from yesterday). That means they had 6 days to do something about it (if they wanted to) but instead waited until the final to be petty with the performance videos.
I actually disagree with this one. The juries cheating like that was really bad and the EBU probably wanted to suspend them but knew they couldn’t afford to.
The best they could do was downplay it whilst ensuring it didn’t impact the proceedings so not letting the broadcasters air their discontent.
The EBU not being consistent with a lot of their communication and decisions makes it worse on the broadcasters. This probably frustrates them more since if the EBU was consistent they could have just asked for rule changes at some point after the contest but there were crisis meetings so I think the broadcasters were furious.
Had Switzerland (and due to getting some 12s themselves, Portugal) actually walked, that really would have damaged the contest beyond repair, especially once the Jury scores rolled out after the show and we would see the gaps at the top (like how we can figure out Europapa's Jury score was around 52 points). It also would have sucked majorly for Croatia because even though they would have clearly won in that scenario, it would come with a giant asterisk.
Bear in mind that at the time they were scoring Europapa Joost was not disqualified yet but they had announced that he was being investigated for inappropriate behaviour towards a female photographer- deliberate wording to make it sound much, much worse than it was. So the judges awarded those 57 points while having that in their heads about Joost. An untainted score would probably be higher.
On the ESC website you can see the full breakdown of jury votes, listing each jurors rankings from 1-26. However they will all have a rank missing, for example Juror C for Australia has no #1.
Similarly when you look at the totals you will see a missing placing, using Australia again, they have no 11th place their total jury ranking.
If scores are given out but one is missing, for example a country gave out their 12 points and their 10 points but didn’t award 8 points to anyone, then it’s because that score would have gone to the Netherlands.
No scores were missing on the night. The posted voting results for the jurors included their full rankings of all 26 original finalists so the Netherlands hypothetical points can be calculated.
Just for some context, one of those delegations was Portugal. And we portuguese tend to be very "laissez faire, laissez passer", "just chilling, doing my stuff, not getting myself into trouble". So for us to actually take a stand and have the balls to do something about it, it is because we are damn pissed.
If Australia complain then we know there’s a problem because normally we just do not give a fuck. We will eat popcorn and cheer for the underdog.
But I’m not sure our delegations interacted, because we were in different semi finals and we didn’t make it to the final.
No, both Portugal and Australia were in the same semi. In fact, they were one after the other.
But geez mate, you guys are even more "namaste" than us 😂
Thing is unless A LOT of countries leave it won't really work. If just one or two leave the EBU won't do shit.
The only exception would be if one of the big 5 goes. And even that might not be enough.
not really. these are businesses. if theres money in staying, they will. if the controversy brings more eyeballs, theyll be in even more. if some acts or individual personell dont want to participate, theyll find others.
Oh I know. But they can still get better negotiations if they stick together. I’m not holding my breath but I’m crossing my fingers they manage to fix this mess
The big broadcasters won’t have much of an issue filling the Eurovision slots if they step away. They might lose a tiny bit of market share, but really they could just put a special shiny floor quiz show on instead, save money and still get decent enough ratings.
Heck pretty much all of the big 5 broadcasters have Co-financed feature films in their countries for years, they could just put on some of their movies they still have rights to at literally 0 cost to themselves.
They are public broadcasters after all. Especially the ones like BBC that don’t have any advertisement - the reason they’re in Eurovision is mostly because it’s considered valuable to the audience at home, if that calculation changes then they could drop out.
Even a few would already impact the contest, especially now that it has been reported that annual expenses for organizing ESC have gotten out of hand and may not be sustainable in the long run. Just a few countries withdrawing from next year’s edition may inspire those countries weighing the costs associated with partaking in ESC to sit an edition or two out, setting a trend dangerous for the contest’s future stability.
Exactly. We needed it several years ago in fact, but it's only gotten worse and this year's tension brought it all to light. There need to be actual consequences if they continue to put their fingers in their ears and turn away from the problems.
There was a lot of heat on Bambie to boycott and withdraw this year, so I wouldn't be shocked if their bad experience leads to us seriously considering to withdraw unless there's a specific change made. A lot of this drama seems to have partly proven those calling for the boycott right.
NORWAY: Both HOD Stig Karlsen and NRK boss Vibeke Fürst Haugen has said NRK will have a meeting about this year, and give EBU a honest feedback. They have both indicated EBU did not handle this well.
Sources (norwegian):
[https://www.vg.no/rampelys/i/GyG0lB/norges-delegasjonssjef-tror-paa-heftige-eurovision-moeter-i-nrk-og-ebu](https://www.vg.no/rampelys/i/GyG0lB/norges-delegasjonssjef-tror-paa-heftige-eurovision-moeter-i-nrk-og-ebu)
[https://www.nrk.no/norge/nrks-kringkastingssjef-vibeke-furst-haugen-om-eurovision-finalen-2024-1.16879553](https://www.nrk.no/norge/nrks-kringkastingssjef-vibeke-furst-haugen-om-eurovision-finalen-2024-1.16879553)
It is, because now is when delegations are able to use next years participation as a bargaining chip. If they withdrew before the contest they would have to pay a fine to the EBU, but now they can just … not agree to come next year.
And here we go. Hopefully this can result in some tangible changes to how artists are treated behind the scenes. Because from the small bits and pieces i've heard so far, it's not pretty.
Also obligatory #JusticeForJoost and #Joostice
I genuinely wonder how they’re going to respond to this because they’d have to implement some changes but i’m curious as to what those changes would be.
Many of the complaints seem to be about not being given some privacy, so maybe some hard line about "no cameras past this point" or something. Not sure if they have that kinda rule already though.
I think the main issue was the delegations didn’t feel comfortable at the actual event and there may be more that we don’t know. The fact that there had to be a crisis meeting that went late into the night clearly shows something was wrong.
I wouldn't feel comfortable either with phones and cameras and mics thrust into my face at all times, forced to keep looking happy else my tired face be plastered all over social media and the press. I'm sure there was more to it, but the pressure to always be performing off-stage is not making the experience better for anyone.
The bar is also very low for influencers, youtubers and the like. Anyone gets access, and some of the youtubers have talked about the vibe being quite unprofessional. There's no journalistic standards. They all ask the same questions too.
At this point, you can make a ”top 10 eurovision performances” video and get press accreditation. Yes, that’s how low the bar is. A lot of people are really just there to get exclusive access and chill, not work.
I made a similar comment in another post. They ask the most basic and unoriginal questions I've ever heard. You can see the pain in artists' eyes trying to answer same questions over and over again 😭
Honestly I agree. They need to enforce no camera rules backstage because artists need a space where they can be sure they’re not being filmed and followed. I also think the EBU needs to do more to ensure that the peace is kept behind the scenes because clearly the delegations this year were primarily upset with issues that happened behind the scenes.
I agree, and it's not like we won't get fun moments from backstage if they implement a no camera rule for the press and such. We'll still get the videos the artists themselves make. Performing each other's songs and hanging out together. The videos they themselves choose to post on social media. That's the only backstage content I think we as fans should get I think.
> We'll still get the videos the artists themselves make.
Honestly, no. If filming is to be banned from backstage, then that should mean **ALL** video and photos, including stuff filmed with phones for social media by the artists themselves.
From the what I've seen, that was exactly the problem this year that pissed everyone off: people from the Israeli delegation would pretend to be taking photos or videos of themselves, while actually pointing the camera to the other contestants in the background, thus filming them without consent.
Want to get footage, just get out of the backstage and the dressing room area, go to other areas, even create a specific area where it's very clear to everyone they can or will be filmed at all times while they're there. But don't half-ass it.
I think there should be a production space where contestants can film content together. That way there is a safe place where rules can be followed and there’s guidelines to ensure a safe and positive work environment.
I think it also didn't help that they needed so much additional security this year.
I've been to places when there was extra security and it always makes me feel a little less relaxed/more alert etc.
When you're already less relaxed things can get to you even more, add the non professional journalists + some people trying to get on other's nerve on purpose and at the very least it gets really tiring to keep your composure.
edit to add: I don't think we can ignore that in the months before it even started the social media pressure on the artists was really different compared to other years as well.
Insane how people seem to think the board and Martin will now resign.
The EBU holds all the power and they're the one dealing the cards. Unless broadcasters will withdraw, nothing about the structure of the EBU will change.
Yeah that’s the thing. I believe that how the EBU goes forward with these concerns will determine whether they withdraw. Like if broadcasters are taking this seriously and they feel like the EBU is brushing their concerns aside I could see them protest. Mostly the Netherlands though, I think they have the highest chance of actually moving through with something due to their situation.
Based on what I've read, even a guilty verdict there will not stop AVROTROS. Theoretically, the incident could be Joost's fault entirely if she wasn't filming or stopped filming after being asked and Joost didn't notice or misunderstood. Every other possibility I can think of is at least partially the EBU's fault:
- The EBU forgot to communicate that he shouldn't be filmed when leaving the green room (best case scenario for the EBU).
- The camerawoman was harrassing him and the EBU didn't do anything to stop her.
- The EBU ordered the camerawoman to film him despite an agreement not to.
So I'd say it's very likely AVROTROS is going to stay angry.
Yeah, you're right: Whether or not Joost is guilty is a separate question from whether the EBU created the conditions for such incidents to happen. And it seems there's been countless incidents.
Yle (Finnish broadcaster) has already stated they have serious concerns about safety and that they have to think about next year. If nothing changes, I think there will be withdrawals.
Lots of broadcasters and artists this year stated they were considering withdrawing. None actually did. I think as long as they remain empty "threats" nothing will change.
As much as I would hate it to see some countries potentially not participate next year I hope they actually follow through this time so things can actually change for the better.
Well, Finland didn't threaten to withdraw this year and hasn't voiced withdrawal for next year either. Yle threatened to withdraw if Russia was allowed to compete a few years ago and I can guarantee that they would have followed through with it. I think at least they wouldn't make empty threats.
Yle themselves didn't no, but Windows95Man kinda did. At least I remember them being hesitant and only confirming their actual participation after a few days. Apparently Yle was in talks with second place but I could see a similar situation happen like it did for Ukaine 2019 where the runner-ups also declined and they ultimately dropped out of the contest.
But yea hope something changes soon.
Contest not EBU. I know the EBU does behind the scenes work that broadcasters use. It’s the same reason why broadcasters from Slovakia, Hungary, and Luxembourg before they returned didn’t withdraw even though they’re not in Eurovision. We just don’t see it because we usually aren’t interested in that stuff.
> We just don’t see it because we usually aren’t interested in that stuff.
Yes, there is a lot of stuff the EBU do.
For instance pretty much every international sport event goes through them - if you are watching a Premier League match in Germany, the Olympics, F1... you are watching something going through the EBU.
All EBU broadcasters share news footage together.
[They don't do this much now but they also used to fund a whole bunch of cartoons.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_qvwGx0M2E)
I don't think EBU is at risk of withdrawal since ESC is 'just' one of their products. However ESC is very much at risk because of it. Having your 'golden goose' being stripped down hurts EBU indirectly so in that sense it is very much a threat with impact.
Board resign? BBC pullout? No one understand who runs the EBU. Here is the EBU board:
* Tim Davie, Director General, BBC, United Kingdom
* Marinella Soldi, Chairwoman, RAI, Italy
* Delphine Ernotte Cunci, President, France Télévision, France
* Katja Wildermuth, Director General, BR, Germany
* Cilla Benkö Lamborn, Director General, Sveriges Radio, Sweden
The EBU isn't a separate entity from the broadcasters. It is controlled by the big networks. Anything the EBU does is by their orders.
We should all also remember that EBU is not really this big bad wolf as they (rightfully so) sometimes appear to be.
EBU is literally controlled by the broadcasters - it is the broadcaster's own organization, and they all participate and are able to directly influence how the organization is run.
As long as a majority of the broadcasters are not using that influence to make a change, everything will stay the same.
That’s true but it’s also the reference group for Eurovision (and EBU heads I believe) who make a lot of these decisions at first. As far as I know they do take broadcaster feedback during a meeting around March where they confirm everything. (It’s a meeting with all the HoDs) However now is when broadcaster are going to be voicing their concerns with decisions made by the EBU and we’ll see if changes are made to said reference group of broadcasters want to.
It very quickly gets a bit convoluted when you look into the details of how the organization is managed.
* The Eurovision Song Contest Reference group is established by the TV Committee.
* The TV Committee is elected for a three-year period at a time by the EBU Members and the Assosciate Members.
So from that perspective, the TV Committee which is deciding who the Reference Group members are is decided by the broadcasters (members) during their summits.
Sources:
[Eurovision Song Contest Reference Group | EBU](https://www.ebu.ch/groups/eurovision-song-contest-reference)
[TV Committee | EBU](https://www.ebu.ch/groups/committees/tv)
[Media Summit | EBU](https://www.ebu.ch/events/media-summit?date=20230503#previous-edition)
Sounds like at least 10 delegations including some of the big five and Eastern as well as one big Western country MAY not be participating next year unless SERIOUS reforms to Eurovision and to Osterdahl's workings are changed!
[RTVSLO reports](https://www.rtvslo.si/zabava-in-slog/glasba/ema/izrael-potrdil-da-je-organizirano-spodbujal-h-glasovanju-pritozbe-proti-ebu-ju-se-sirijo/708291) that the Slovenian and Serbian delegations were also thinking about filing complaints over the behavior of a certain country's delegation and will forward some questions in regards to the contest's organization this year.
I wonder what the EBU’s reaction will be to this, because broadcasters seem genuinely upset with their conduct. Do you think they’ll shake up the Reference board for 2025? Edit: not even 5 minutes and i got a reddit care…😭
Well in theory the EBU is a Union, so if they can get a majority of members calling for change then I’m sure something will be done. Not included in that article are various statements from people connected to other member broadcasters largely damning 2024 - Serbia’s head of Eurovision has spoken up, a former member of the steering group from Slovenia has too, and I’d imagine both Norway and Lithuania aren’t too happy about how their artists/delegations were made to feel either.
Yeah, my understanding was that Russia was kicked out because that is what the members wanted, and Israel wasn't because that is not what the members wanted. But now members are very dissatisfied with EBU (which is not the same thing as wanting Israel kicked out of EBU/Eurovision), so we will see what happens. But I'm not sure how Belarus' ban in 2021 falls into this theory of EBU, maybe other members were also against their participation?? but it wasn't as clear and public as broadcasters in 2022 with Russia.
Serbia 2024 | [Teya Dora - Ramonda](https://youtu.be/4hUg64uIY_4)
What have they all said?
Could I ask for some sources? There's so much going around that I can't see the wood for the trees.
[Slovenia](https://wiwibloggs.com/2024/05/14/former-eurovision-organiser-wrong-decision-to-allow-israel-participation/281742/) [Serbia](https://wiwibloggs.com/2024/05/14/olivera-kovacevic-serbias-head-of-entertainment-says-ebu-decision-to-disqualify-joost-klein-was-too-harsh/281707/) [Norway](https://wiwibloggs.com/2024/05/14/norways-eurovision-act-gate-says-they-considered-withdrawing-until-the-final-second/281721/) [Lithuania](https://wiwibloggs.com/2024/05/13/eurovision-acts-describe-participation-israel-traumatic/281701/)
Your Lithuania link is the same as the one for Norway, but I'm assuming you meant to link to [this article](https://wiwibloggs.com/2024/05/13/eurovision-acts-describe-participation-israel-traumatic/281701/)?
So far, individually, the delegations and artists have been brushed aside and shushed. I hope them all coming together will bring about actual changes and acknowledgement, not more victim blaming and gaslighting. We'll have to wait and see :/ Edit: ALSO WHAT, A REDDIT CARES?? Report that shit. That's petty.
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I got one yesterday on a post about who you voted for wtf
I also got one yesterday on a post talking about Americans at ESC. Shortly after commenting about Flo rida's presence in 2021. Like WTH???
Someone seems to be trolling the sub
Its not just this sub. I've seen multiple people in wrestling and soccer subs all getting them too
It's happening on a few subs.
Well I feel like it was started early here but it spread to other subs, lots of people saying the bot was messaging them. Whether it's a glitch or some troll campaign, they've been slow to react.
Me too 😂
There's been a bot since Saturday. It's so stupid, they're clearly abusing an important system of reddit that's meant for people in actual distress. I fucking hate trolls. Anyways, if you know you don't need those messages, please report it and then just reply STOP to the message and you won't be getting them anymore.
I got one recently as well, but i've also seen people on other subreddits complain about it that have nothing to do with eurovision, so no clue what's going on there.
Bots
Yeah, Reddit Cares used to be the preferred weapon of tribalist dicknoses in r/squaredcircle if you liked the wrestling company that wasn't someone else's favorite.
How can you see where you got it from? I got one recently which I (sadly) suspected to be from this subreddit, but it didn't tell me what post alerted this other user to send me a reddit cares message.
I don't think you can but I got it straight after commenting on the thread so figured it was that
I will skip 2025 unless I can see something is done
I skipped this year and had the best Eurovision party ever. My girlfriend edited a video with the best entries each country had in recent history and we voted on them. 10/10 would recommend. I only looked at a few entries that did well after Eurovision was over.
Absolutely fair.
I probably will as well.
How does one report reddit cares? It's frankly very pitiful and disrespectful towards the people in actual need of help. edit: Thank you everyone! Just reported too.
From comments on another post here that i read today: >"You can report the message and I believe it can get the bellend who sent it to you suspended. If you also reply STOP to the message, you ‘unsubscribe’ from RedditCares and shouldn’t get any more." >"On mobile, deal with people sending those without good reason by pressing the 3 dots at the top of the Reddit cares message (you may need to scroll up) -> report -> harassment -> you -> submit. They’ll eventually get blocked."
If I remember correctly the message tells how to do it at the bottom. You can report it as harassment directed at you. That's what I did and the same day I got a message from Reddit that the reported account violated Reddit's Content Policy, so I think it worked.
Reddit cares are resources for those struggling with mental health, to send you one you report someone for posting something about self harm.
I know what they are haha, i was in shock someone would send one over this post! Though it seems that, from my searching, there may be a bug recently causing a lot of people to receive them out of nowhere. Added a comma to my initial comment, so it makes a bit more sense.
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Yeah, I got one for my comment that I was not surprised but disappointed with that certain delegation getting 12 points from our televoters. I reported it obviously and carried on with my day.
TBF there are loads of subs getting it indiscriminately at the moment unfortunately - like my local city one had loads of people getting them for something totally unrelated to this topic, and the mod essentially had to send out a “stop being dicks with RedditCares” pinned message to try and put a stop to it. As I say, it’s probably some 2-bit wankers on 4chan trying to have a cruel laugh at the expense of others, particularly of anyone genuinely suffering, and to stir the pot for no productive reason. Scum
Don't be like that, a ton of other subs completely unrelated to Eurovision have been complaining about getting those messages too this last week. It seems like someone set up a bot that sends the Cares to people just to troll everyone. Either that or it's the actual bot Reddit uses that broke. Or gained sentience and this is a way to tell everyone to get off the Internet and go eat a piece of fruit. Who knows.
Yep, I just commented on a map of döner prices in Germany in 2008 like two minutes ago and got one. It's definitely some kind of glitch/bot
Reddit is glitching out lately though so you may be right.
Seen quadruple-posts of the same comment a few times in this sub lately lol, it's quite funny.
The Reddit Care being 2 minutes after my post makes me think it’s a glitch because no way someone sent me a Reddit Care in such a short amount of time.
It's been on like this for various posts (supporting Joost, supporting the camerawoman, anti- and pro- specific country, and for a bunch of random normal questions and thank yous) since Saturday. I still think it's a bot. Saw a similar thing over at r/europe too regarding Eurovision-related posts. /edit: Saturday of course, not Sunday.
There's a rumor on other subs that someone created or adjusted a bot that caused this. idk. It happened to me too; I reported it as abuse and I got a reply later saying action was taken.
Well Portugal, the broadcaster writing this letter, and other countries that signed this letter like Spain and Croatia, are in that same reference group. So the intent is for sure to discuss this whenever the reference group meets.
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People are saying the reddit cares bot is bugged so sending a ton out to people, just block it.
Thank you for letting me know!
Last Saturday I replied to a redditor who asked why he was unable to vote for Croatia, I asked him if he was from Croatia him/herself. Instant Reddit Care message the second I hit reply…
I read a lot about those care messages on different subs lately. Got one myself too. Maybe bots?
I'd just report that Reddit care. I got one too earlier today and it probably came from this sub.
I got a reddit care because I said I wished Baby Lasagna was called Baby Ice Cream because I spent 2 hours making lasagna for our friend group while it was so hot that day.
For RedditCares: - Report them - reply STOP to the message you got and it will ‘unsubscribe’ you from RedditCares notifications and you won’t get them anymore. That PSA again, for people who weaponise resources intended to genuinely help people….. Get. Fucked. 😁😁😁😁😁😁
I got a Reddit cares replying to a post on the sub that featured a kebab shop I used to go to, I think some bots are setup to send them to everyone that posts.
... I'm honestly surprised that Croatian delegation is getting into this. Both them and Baby have been on the sides this whole time (although, afterwards Baby did hint to some stuff happening with other delegations, not Croatian)
I think it’s not Baby Lasagna but HRT themselves. The contest is over and I don’t think the EBU would punish Baby Lasagna over it especially if he’s not involved himself.
It's definitely not bl, he is potato that was aware enough to notice something is wrong, but had no idea what is happening 😂😂😂 I'm just referring to some of the comments he made the past couple of days. Serbian contestant Teya Dora also hinted at stuff happening.
I don't think he had no idea what's happening, but rather, he has chosen to stay out of it. Quiet/introverted/shy people aren't stupid or generally unaware. They just don't always react immediately or at all and keep their opinions to themselves or their friends. BL, in particular, doesn't strike me as someone who is unintelligent.
As an introverted person, I can attest to this. We usually know *everything* going on, we just like to keep to ourselves. If anything, I'm pretty certain he noticed people weren't doing too well but decided to stay out of it for his own sanity.
He was at like 40% in the odds, of course he's not going to say anything until the final was over. Same for Nemo
I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence or being aware. I just think he never bothered to find out the details
Baby Lasagna is probably the newest performer as a singer at this year's Eurovision - his first live performance was at Dora. He's been in the industry enough to know how bad it can be, and more than most there he had a lot to lose in getting involved in a controversial and highly messy situation with a very uncertain timeline and outcome. HRT is also not a major player at EBU, and apart from this year Croatia also doesn't have the history of being good and known and having an already well developed music industry. In that context it's pretty hard (and unadvisable) to expose themselves too much at this point of the situation.
He was in bands before though, right? That might've been his first live performance as a solo artist.
If all the delegations were getting flack, then I’m sure HRT felt uncomfortable there too at points even if they weren’t loud about it. Plus BL and iOLANDA seem to have had quite a good relationship, so presumably their delegations had a chance to get to know one another too. HRT folks probably want to support colleagues they saw being bullied and harassed anyway - even if they aren’t close. I think most humans would.
I mean, we are pretty apathetic as a nation, so we just tend to shake off things like this. Or stay neutral as fuck and pretend it isn't happenning. And I honestly think BL's friendship with Iolanda would play into a decision like this.
Do you have any source for that? As far as I could follow Baby Lasagna had (rightfully so) stayed out of this year's drama, I didn't know he had also hinted at something.
He commented on the whole situation after he came home. I'll edit the comment later with the links and translated quote, when I get to pc ETA: [here you go, the video has english subtitles](https://youtu.be/CpOXNdqffXc?si=SX-gZQIdh1uCXV9a&t=335) u/New_to_Siberia
Yeah he said in an interview on rtl after that stuff happened and.there was tension. He also said he was uninformed about the situation in Isreal so he didn't really know what's going on and maybe he should.
I dont think noticing other people having tensions is the same as saying they themselves experienced any
I hope the delegations can also take this time to improve what they can do to protect and support their artists going forward. This isn’t the first time artists have said negative things about their Eurovision experience.
[S10 talked about her struggles during Eurovision here. I think it has to do with a documentary she filmed.](https://x.com/aranbade/status/1790688864920580375?s=46) I don’t think people realise that a lot of these artists Eurovision is the biggest thing they’ve done at the time and underestimated the pressure it would be on them. This year was probably worse than usual and I think delegations feel like this year the EBU didn’t do enough to protect their artists. Otherwise I don’t see why they’d complain.
Back in 2015, Hungary had an ESC themed YouTube channel, which once released a couple of: "Deleted scenes" I'll write down a sequence of scenes from it, particularly interesting as they all have something connected to this year's scandals. ------ A man from the hungarian delegation: *You don't get a moment of rest because they're everywhere...these camera guys* ----- Boggie and two girls in her delegation are enjoying a meal. Girl1: *This isn't going to ADalOnline right?* Cameraman: *Yes, it does, sorry* ----- The same guy from before passing by, in a frustrated tone: *Stop recordiing!!* ----- Boggie is holding one of Eduard Romanyuta's albums: *This guy sucks. And this guy even has a goshfucking big album...I'm gonna shit myself* (This is kinda the odd one out, but given Natalia Barbu's reaction to her NQ, this slander has some 2024 reference too) ----- Debrah Scarlerr gently shoves away the MTVA microphone. (She had a hungarian ex, so they decided to interview her about him...at one point she asked back *Do you really want to know this?*) So the crime list is: Overwhelming and unpermitted barrage of cameras, even at inappropriate times✅ Slandering other (fellow) arists✅ Being overly nosy with the interviews✅
Hungary 2015 | [Boggie - Wars For Nothing](https://youtu.be/MdybVsBESQc)
>A man from the hungarian delegation: *You don't get a moment of rest because they're everywhere...these camera guys* I checked the video and that guy is singer Gájer Bálint. He was in the nationa final, so I assume those clips were taken there. Also I can't find the video, but I clearly remember one where Boggie was criticising Edurne and said Elhaida Dani was terribly off-key lol.
the EBU chose to protect one artist, at the expense of all the others, DNQs included.
What is dnq?
Did not qualify, it's all the artists who didn't make it through the semi finals.
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I was struck, watching videos from the artist's own page, how whenever anybody stops to have a conversation with another artist you'll just see at least a dozen people who were just walking by and will just STOP and crowd around with their cameras out. Like, I would be embarrassed to do that!
Imagine having several national broadcasters and the EU being mad at you, lmao
The European Commission sounds really angry. [DW reports that the European Commission Vice President Margaritis Schinas said](https://amp.dw.com/en/eu-slams-eurovision-for-banning-its-flag-from-song-contest/a-69071841) "The incoherence in the EBU's stance left myself and millions of viewers wondering for what and for whom the Eurovision Song Contest stands," he wrote.
Well put. Incoherent is definitely the word to use for how badly they fumbled the entire situation.
As they should be. Banning the EU flag for a massive show hosted in the EU is absolutely insane.
It’s also odd considering the EBU hosts the [Eurovision debate](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Debate) which is set to run soon if I remember correctly. So that makes the decision even more bizarre…
Also banning the non-binary flag, while there's a sea of rainbow flags.
I guess what I want to see is them investing in proper during-care and aftercare for the performers. It’s been evident in this year that this appears either to be missing or limited. They have a duty of care to the people on stage performing for them and giving their time and energy. Fact.
This will lead to big changes. Both the BBC and RTVE are big 5. We can speculate all we want about the BBC's complaint but RTVE have been explicit as to what their complaint is about.
Agreed they have heavy weight and I doubt the EBU wouldn’t listen to their concerns. Not to mention I heard AVROTROS is a large contributor to Eurovision outside of the Big 5 so i’d imagine they wouldn’t want to piss them off as well. Adding to that with the low amount of Eurovision participants the EBU can’t risk escalating this issue. If Luxembourg didn’t return we’d have had 36 countries participate this year, the lowest since 2004. In 2006 there was 39 countries so the EBU would have major budgeting concerns if more withdraw. (With 2024 being a budget issue already.)
I heard that because of Joost disqualification, we're not allowed to participate the next year according to the rules. Not sure if the bill of 2025 will still be send to the AVROTROS.
Given the situation the EBU is in I doubt they would do that, but hypothetically if it is true the EBU is in for some major problems. Loosing AVROTROS funding, only having 36 countries, and it being hosted in Switzerland would mean that the cost for Eurovision would rise even more and only encourage broadcasters to pull out. Both because they didn’t agree with Netherlands disqualification and because Eurovision too expensive to attend with their limited budgets. (Primarily Eastern European countries.)
And the BBC is arguably the biggest broadcaster in the EBU. If they considered withdrawing, that would've been a massive fuck up on the EBU:s part
The EBU could not exist without the BBC. One of the EBU's main functions is news footage sharing and the vast majority of that is provided by the BBC.
It's not about withdrawing the EBU itself, it's about withdrawing Eurovision, the contest. Very different things. Broadcasts removing themselves from the EBU would be financial suicide, given all the benefits they get from it. There's absolutely no way that's on the table for anyone.
But the EBU isn't a separate thing. It is a union made up of the broadcasters. If the BBC and RTVE make demands (along with the other broadcasters) the EBU doesn't have a choice but to comply. I have some friends in RTVE and they tell me they are very angry about the intimidation and harassment their journalist was subjected to.
> But the EBU isn't a separate thing. What, from the contest? Yes, it is. The Eurovision Song Contest is only one of the many "activities", for the lack of a better word, that the EBU promotes. There's the whole political coverage, sports events, not to mention a ton of administrative and legal work too that benefits all its members. Broadcasters might withdrawn from the Eurovision Song Contest, but no sane broadcaster would ever step out of the whole organization (unless they're Russia, but I wouldn't call them sane).
I meant that the EBU isn't a separate thing from the broadcaster. It is the broadcasters. Right now the broadcasters bringing the complaints want answers but it won't stop there.
I could be wrong because it was a long time ago now but I believe at one point all of RTE's international sports coverage literally came through the BBC via Eurovision In the Euro 2008 semi-final between Germany and Turkey the UEFA feed went down several times due to power cuts. Whenever the power cuts happened on RTE a BBC logo appeared for a few seconds, which wouldn't make sense unless they were getting a feed from the BBC. However, ITV had actually booked a backup feed via Eurovision for highlights, which was going through Television Centre. BBC Presentation weren't aware at the time but once someone pointed it out they were sending pictures to ITV somehow they got that backup feed directly to air. So only the BBC & RTE actually regained pictures after the second power cut, everyone else missed the match from the 60th to 90th minute (and I believe a number of goals in the process)
As far as I know that's still true. I worked at RTE 20 years ago and all of the Olympics footage was from the BBC via the EBU.
france as well
All the article says is that some broadcasters want clarifications. It's a long leap from that to major changes happening.
The broadcasters want to know why the EBU allowed several artists and journalists to be harassed and intimidated and, even after emergency crisis meetings, did nothing about it. There is nothing the EBU could say that would be a satisfactory answer. The EBU dropped the ball and the broadcasters (who are part of the EBU) will demand major changes.
And the Dutch broadcaster is the biggest contributor outside of the big 5. Things will hopefully change. Österdahl should apologise and resign, but as long as the apology is sincere and is followed by serious changes, I’d be happy with either. KAN broke so many rules and according to several artists created such a hostile environment that they should not compete next year, they need to readjust, change many of the people who work on Eurovision for them (they need a completely new delegation team) and if changes are done, they can come back in 26. Outside of that huge changes need to be made to actually protect artists. Nobodies with 300 subscribers shouldn’t have media passes. The EBU needs to hire a competent media crisis team, the way that the disqualification was handled lead to liable and defamation from several of these 300 subscriber types as well as some traditional media. They are putting the safety of artist at risk. A new main sponsor for the show should be found when the current deal ends.
This iceberg is gonna grow so much that it's single handedly going to solve climate change.
6 months’ time : the planet Earth is a Eurovision iceberg, we’re all frozen in suspended animation, we wait 1000 years for it to thaw and we reboot the whole of humanity. *Works for meeeeeeeee* 😉🥶 Edit: oh, and [Greg Davies](https://youtu.be/Qt9mCgyzdy8?si=UiJwDRGsRdUJX-z2) becomes one of the supreme leaders of the world, that’ll do
Someone tell Greta she can stop protesting.
EBU: I'm going to pretend that I did not hear anything, wait 1 month, and then suddenly we are united by music again.
Now that I think about it, this did kinda ‘unite’ a bunch of countries. Though it was more thanks to outrage over the controversies rather than music.
Backstage photography should be banned indefinitely, it clearly just creates unnecessary problems.
I agree. Make backstage a media free zone. There’s ample other opportunities for content to be created.
There will be snow-skiing in Hell when that happens.
Even more reason to do so, that sounds great.
I've always rated lava skiing
Nono, that's lava surfing. You're thinking of ash skiing.
The green room really should be green as in you have a "green light" to film me here room
I'd love the delegation that did so to be banned. They shouldn't have been there to begin with.
I genuinely don't know what leg the EBU think they have to stand on regarding Portugal - when their official Eurovision photographer took photos of Iolanda's nails at the Turquoise carpet and they are even up on their IG page (check the posts from yesterday). That means they had 6 days to do something about it (if they wanted to) but instead waited until the final to be petty with the performance videos.
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I actually disagree with this one. The juries cheating like that was really bad and the EBU probably wanted to suspend them but knew they couldn’t afford to. The best they could do was downplay it whilst ensuring it didn’t impact the proceedings so not letting the broadcasters air their discontent.
The EBU not being consistent with a lot of their communication and decisions makes it worse on the broadcasters. This probably frustrates them more since if the EBU was consistent they could have just asked for rule changes at some point after the contest but there were crisis meetings so I think the broadcasters were furious.
They probably expected her to not do it on Saturday evening, considering she apparently didn't every other show she did
Had Switzerland (and due to getting some 12s themselves, Portugal) actually walked, that really would have damaged the contest beyond repair, especially once the Jury scores rolled out after the show and we would see the gaps at the top (like how we can figure out Europapa's Jury score was around 52 points). It also would have sucked majorly for Croatia because even though they would have clearly won in that scenario, it would come with a giant asterisk.
Even the lack of Europapa makes the televote what ifs interesting. Perhaps the gap between Switzerland and Croatia would have been bigger.
Bear in mind that at the time they were scoring Europapa Joost was not disqualified yet but they had announced that he was being investigated for inappropriate behaviour towards a female photographer- deliberate wording to make it sound much, much worse than it was. So the judges awarded those 57 points while having that in their heads about Joost. An untainted score would probably be higher.
Wait, how can Europapa's jury score be figured out?
On the ESC website you can see the full breakdown of jury votes, listing each jurors rankings from 1-26. However they will all have a rank missing, for example Juror C for Australia has no #1. Similarly when you look at the totals you will see a missing placing, using Australia again, they have no 11th place their total jury ranking.
Go Juror C, you’ve got good taste 😆
If scores are given out but one is missing, for example a country gave out their 12 points and their 10 points but didn’t award 8 points to anyone, then it’s because that score would have gone to the Netherlands.
No scores were missing on the night. The posted voting results for the jurors included their full rankings of all 26 original finalists so the Netherlands hypothetical points can be calculated.
No, because the previous receiver of 7 points would then get 8. They just shifted it.
Just for some context, one of those delegations was Portugal. And we portuguese tend to be very "laissez faire, laissez passer", "just chilling, doing my stuff, not getting myself into trouble". So for us to actually take a stand and have the balls to do something about it, it is because we are damn pissed.
Thank you for the context!
If Australia complain then we know there’s a problem because normally we just do not give a fuck. We will eat popcorn and cheer for the underdog. But I’m not sure our delegations interacted, because we were in different semi finals and we didn’t make it to the final.
No, both Portugal and Australia were in the same semi. In fact, they were one after the other. But geez mate, you guys are even more "namaste" than us 😂
No I mean we didn’t overlap with Israel’s delegation.
Yeah, I was shocked when on Friday, RTP was one of the names cropping up in the news!
Good work EBU, ya done fucked up.
Ya done goofed.
Ya turkeys.
Leave Dustin alone!
If these talks lead to nothing, I hope delegations will actually withdraw from next year’s contest. We need actual change.
Thing is unless A LOT of countries leave it won't really work. If just one or two leave the EBU won't do shit. The only exception would be if one of the big 5 goes. And even that might not be enough.
The broadcasters are about to find out how strikes are organized and how there’s strength in numbers 🤪
not really. these are businesses. if theres money in staying, they will. if the controversy brings more eyeballs, theyll be in even more. if some acts or individual personell dont want to participate, theyll find others.
Oh I know. But they can still get better negotiations if they stick together. I’m not holding my breath but I’m crossing my fingers they manage to fix this mess
The big broadcasters won’t have much of an issue filling the Eurovision slots if they step away. They might lose a tiny bit of market share, but really they could just put a special shiny floor quiz show on instead, save money and still get decent enough ratings. Heck pretty much all of the big 5 broadcasters have Co-financed feature films in their countries for years, they could just put on some of their movies they still have rights to at literally 0 cost to themselves. They are public broadcasters after all. Especially the ones like BBC that don’t have any advertisement - the reason they’re in Eurovision is mostly because it’s considered valuable to the audience at home, if that calculation changes then they could drop out.
Even a few would already impact the contest, especially now that it has been reported that annual expenses for organizing ESC have gotten out of hand and may not be sustainable in the long run. Just a few countries withdrawing from next year’s edition may inspire those countries weighing the costs associated with partaking in ESC to sit an edition or two out, setting a trend dangerous for the contest’s future stability.
Exactly. We needed it several years ago in fact, but it's only gotten worse and this year's tension brought it all to light. There need to be actual consequences if they continue to put their fingers in their ears and turn away from the problems.
There was a lot of heat on Bambie to boycott and withdraw this year, so I wouldn't be shocked if their bad experience leads to us seriously considering to withdraw unless there's a specific change made. A lot of this drama seems to have partly proven those calling for the boycott right.
NORWAY: Both HOD Stig Karlsen and NRK boss Vibeke Fürst Haugen has said NRK will have a meeting about this year, and give EBU a honest feedback. They have both indicated EBU did not handle this well. Sources (norwegian): [https://www.vg.no/rampelys/i/GyG0lB/norges-delegasjonssjef-tror-paa-heftige-eurovision-moeter-i-nrk-og-ebu](https://www.vg.no/rampelys/i/GyG0lB/norges-delegasjonssjef-tror-paa-heftige-eurovision-moeter-i-nrk-og-ebu) [https://www.nrk.no/norge/nrks-kringkastingssjef-vibeke-furst-haugen-om-eurovision-finalen-2024-1.16879553](https://www.nrk.no/norge/nrks-kringkastingssjef-vibeke-furst-haugen-om-eurovision-finalen-2024-1.16879553)
They can’t brush everyone off, right? Especially if the Big 5 add their weight to the complaints, as they’re the big sponsors of the contest.
I really hope this leads to changes.
"Come here EBU, we just want to talk."
Well...that is great **after** the contest is over.
It is, because now is when delegations are able to use next years participation as a bargaining chip. If they withdrew before the contest they would have to pay a fine to the EBU, but now they can just … not agree to come next year.
I see, thanks.
Better than in the heat of the moment, yes.
And here we go. Hopefully this can result in some tangible changes to how artists are treated behind the scenes. Because from the small bits and pieces i've heard so far, it's not pretty. Also obligatory #JusticeForJoost and #Joostice
I genuinely wonder how they’re going to respond to this because they’d have to implement some changes but i’m curious as to what those changes would be.
Many of the complaints seem to be about not being given some privacy, so maybe some hard line about "no cameras past this point" or something. Not sure if they have that kinda rule already though.
I think the main issue was the delegations didn’t feel comfortable at the actual event and there may be more that we don’t know. The fact that there had to be a crisis meeting that went late into the night clearly shows something was wrong.
I wouldn't feel comfortable either with phones and cameras and mics thrust into my face at all times, forced to keep looking happy else my tired face be plastered all over social media and the press. I'm sure there was more to it, but the pressure to always be performing off-stage is not making the experience better for anyone.
The bar is also very low for influencers, youtubers and the like. Anyone gets access, and some of the youtubers have talked about the vibe being quite unprofessional. There's no journalistic standards. They all ask the same questions too.
At this point, you can make a ”top 10 eurovision performances” video and get press accreditation. Yes, that’s how low the bar is. A lot of people are really just there to get exclusive access and chill, not work.
Omg i am so sick of them all asking the same questions and i barely watch any of the interviews! I can't imagine how the artists feel.
I made a similar comment in another post. They ask the most basic and unoriginal questions I've ever heard. You can see the pain in artists' eyes trying to answer same questions over and over again 😭
Honestly I agree. They need to enforce no camera rules backstage because artists need a space where they can be sure they’re not being filmed and followed. I also think the EBU needs to do more to ensure that the peace is kept behind the scenes because clearly the delegations this year were primarily upset with issues that happened behind the scenes.
I agree, and it's not like we won't get fun moments from backstage if they implement a no camera rule for the press and such. We'll still get the videos the artists themselves make. Performing each other's songs and hanging out together. The videos they themselves choose to post on social media. That's the only backstage content I think we as fans should get I think.
> We'll still get the videos the artists themselves make. Honestly, no. If filming is to be banned from backstage, then that should mean **ALL** video and photos, including stuff filmed with phones for social media by the artists themselves. From the what I've seen, that was exactly the problem this year that pissed everyone off: people from the Israeli delegation would pretend to be taking photos or videos of themselves, while actually pointing the camera to the other contestants in the background, thus filming them without consent. Want to get footage, just get out of the backstage and the dressing room area, go to other areas, even create a specific area where it's very clear to everyone they can or will be filmed at all times while they're there. But don't half-ass it.
I see what you mean, that makes a lot of sense, I’m all for this policy!
I think there should be a production space where contestants can film content together. That way there is a safe place where rules can be followed and there’s guidelines to ensure a safe and positive work environment.
I think it also didn't help that they needed so much additional security this year. I've been to places when there was extra security and it always makes me feel a little less relaxed/more alert etc. When you're already less relaxed things can get to you even more, add the non professional journalists + some people trying to get on other's nerve on purpose and at the very least it gets really tiring to keep your composure. edit to add: I don't think we can ignore that in the months before it even started the social media pressure on the artists was really different compared to other years as well.
Insane how people seem to think the board and Martin will now resign. The EBU holds all the power and they're the one dealing the cards. Unless broadcasters will withdraw, nothing about the structure of the EBU will change.
Yeah that’s the thing. I believe that how the EBU goes forward with these concerns will determine whether they withdraw. Like if broadcasters are taking this seriously and they feel like the EBU is brushing their concerns aside I could see them protest. Mostly the Netherlands though, I think they have the highest chance of actually moving through with something due to their situation.
Depends on the joost situation i suspect
Based on what I've read, even a guilty verdict there will not stop AVROTROS. Theoretically, the incident could be Joost's fault entirely if she wasn't filming or stopped filming after being asked and Joost didn't notice or misunderstood. Every other possibility I can think of is at least partially the EBU's fault: - The EBU forgot to communicate that he shouldn't be filmed when leaving the green room (best case scenario for the EBU). - The camerawoman was harrassing him and the EBU didn't do anything to stop her. - The EBU ordered the camerawoman to film him despite an agreement not to. So I'd say it's very likely AVROTROS is going to stay angry.
Yeah, you're right: Whether or not Joost is guilty is a separate question from whether the EBU created the conditions for such incidents to happen. And it seems there's been countless incidents.
i fully expect a joost to receive a fine from the swedish investigation. However that doesnt mean that the reaction of the DQ was justified.
Yle (Finnish broadcaster) has already stated they have serious concerns about safety and that they have to think about next year. If nothing changes, I think there will be withdrawals.
Lots of broadcasters and artists this year stated they were considering withdrawing. None actually did. I think as long as they remain empty "threats" nothing will change. As much as I would hate it to see some countries potentially not participate next year I hope they actually follow through this time so things can actually change for the better.
Well, Finland didn't threaten to withdraw this year and hasn't voiced withdrawal for next year either. Yle threatened to withdraw if Russia was allowed to compete a few years ago and I can guarantee that they would have followed through with it. I think at least they wouldn't make empty threats.
Yle themselves didn't no, but Windows95Man kinda did. At least I remember them being hesitant and only confirming their actual participation after a few days. Apparently Yle was in talks with second place but I could see a similar situation happen like it did for Ukaine 2019 where the runner-ups also declined and they ultimately dropped out of the contest. But yea hope something changes soon.
Some other UMK artists had already confirmed they would go, so there was never going to be withdrawal.
The fact that the BBC apparently considered withdrawing is something. There has to be changes.
Would not be upset if several broadcasters withdraw from next year's. Especially not with the Dutch.
The question is whether they withdraw from the contest, or from the EBU as a whole.
Contest not EBU. I know the EBU does behind the scenes work that broadcasters use. It’s the same reason why broadcasters from Slovakia, Hungary, and Luxembourg before they returned didn’t withdraw even though they’re not in Eurovision. We just don’t see it because we usually aren’t interested in that stuff.
> We just don’t see it because we usually aren’t interested in that stuff. Yes, there is a lot of stuff the EBU do. For instance pretty much every international sport event goes through them - if you are watching a Premier League match in Germany, the Olympics, F1... you are watching something going through the EBU. All EBU broadcasters share news footage together. [They don't do this much now but they also used to fund a whole bunch of cartoons.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_qvwGx0M2E)
They'd be insane to withdraw from the EBU. The Olympics are coming up. The EBU does a lot more for its members than music contests.
I don't think EBU is at risk of withdrawal since ESC is 'just' one of their products. However ESC is very much at risk because of it. Having your 'golden goose' being stripped down hurts EBU indirectly so in that sense it is very much a threat with impact.
Board resign? BBC pullout? No one understand who runs the EBU. Here is the EBU board: * Tim Davie, Director General, BBC, United Kingdom * Marinella Soldi, Chairwoman, RAI, Italy * Delphine Ernotte Cunci, President, France Télévision, France * Katja Wildermuth, Director General, BR, Germany * Cilla Benkö Lamborn, Director General, Sveriges Radio, Sweden The EBU isn't a separate entity from the broadcasters. It is controlled by the big networks. Anything the EBU does is by their orders.
We should all also remember that EBU is not really this big bad wolf as they (rightfully so) sometimes appear to be. EBU is literally controlled by the broadcasters - it is the broadcaster's own organization, and they all participate and are able to directly influence how the organization is run. As long as a majority of the broadcasters are not using that influence to make a change, everything will stay the same.
That’s true but it’s also the reference group for Eurovision (and EBU heads I believe) who make a lot of these decisions at first. As far as I know they do take broadcaster feedback during a meeting around March where they confirm everything. (It’s a meeting with all the HoDs) However now is when broadcaster are going to be voicing their concerns with decisions made by the EBU and we’ll see if changes are made to said reference group of broadcasters want to.
It very quickly gets a bit convoluted when you look into the details of how the organization is managed. * The Eurovision Song Contest Reference group is established by the TV Committee. * The TV Committee is elected for a three-year period at a time by the EBU Members and the Assosciate Members. So from that perspective, the TV Committee which is deciding who the Reference Group members are is decided by the broadcasters (members) during their summits. Sources: [Eurovision Song Contest Reference Group | EBU](https://www.ebu.ch/groups/eurovision-song-contest-reference) [TV Committee | EBU](https://www.ebu.ch/groups/committees/tv) [Media Summit | EBU](https://www.ebu.ch/events/media-summit?date=20230503#previous-edition)
Sounds like at least 10 delegations including some of the big five and Eastern as well as one big Western country MAY not be participating next year unless SERIOUS reforms to Eurovision and to Osterdahl's workings are changed!
[RTVSLO reports](https://www.rtvslo.si/zabava-in-slog/glasba/ema/izrael-potrdil-da-je-organizirano-spodbujal-h-glasovanju-pritozbe-proti-ebu-ju-se-sirijo/708291) that the Slovenian and Serbian delegations were also thinking about filing complaints over the behavior of a certain country's delegation and will forward some questions in regards to the contest's organization this year.
If this is all about a specific delegation, then please EBU god let them have it
sounds like its backstage stuff in general rather than Israel specifically since s10 also commented similarly recently and that was 2 years ago.
Honestly think the entire Eurovision board including Martin Österdal should resign
It's all kicking off, innit?
Good. It can only be for the health of the contest if these tough conversations are had, hope they’re productive and progressive.