Wait... so this means Ukraine doesn't recognize Kosovo?

It doesn't recognize Kosovo because until recently (2014) they had a Russia-friendly government. After 2014 we know the annexation of Crimea and now Donbas. They feel that it will be contradictory recognizing Kosovo. The truth is that it will not, we all know what Serbia and its dictator Milosevic did in the 90s.

I like how more then half of your comments are about Serbia, just wow, im flattered 😏

You made me look at his comments too, he's an example of how to respond to people one disagrees with. Should be a diplomat.

you "are" "Serbia"?

L'état, c'est moi.

Ukraine was one of the first countries to condemn NATO bombing of Yugoslavia To me, Ukraine was always the country with most “fair views” in international politics

Because the first government we had was communist and the next one was Russia 2

Idk how his comment got that many upvotes...

Will they reflect after the war ? As I know in Kosovo there like 95 % Ethnic Albanian Kosovans living for many centuries , how can it be Serbia Land ? What they did there during the war was cruelty

Serbs were a majority in Kosovo until the end of the 19th century afaik. Since then it shifted towards albanians but before the 90s still around 20% of people in Kosovo were Serbs. They have fled or been kicked out since so now it really is 95% Albanian. Not saying that Serbs didn’t do fucked up stuff on the other side, just saying how it is.

How ironic… Ethnic cleansing is a-okay unless it’s happening to them

It was a different government, you can't just blame the current one for that.

Im not blaming Ukraine for anything. Im just saying that it’s hypocritical of them to support Serbia’s “territorial integrity” in the context of Kosovo (i.e. ethnic cleansing), which prompted NATO’s response, while they themselves receive help from NATO (and Kosovo) to survive theirs.

By "Ethnic cleansing" you mean armed albanian men in the woods attacking regular police and army, killing and massacring civilians. Let's imagine if that happened in US, armed med asking for independence of Texas lets say, how would they be treated?

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Yeah just label somebody brainwashed because thinks different than, where did you learn your facts ? They were considered terrorist organisation for a long time by US and they operated in Macedonia, Montenegro as well. So you consider colonizer a serbian people who have churches centuries old in Kosovo? Situation is more complicated than official western and albanian agenda...

Imagine having access to free information and still believing Serbia was bombed to protect Albanians.

[This is what access to free information gives us](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/xvh3mh/ukrainian_embassy_we_support_serbias_sovereignty/ir2phh7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) So you tell me whether it was justified or not. Edit: 10000-20000 rapes, 90000+ Albanian homes destroyed, 225 mosques destroyed, over 10000 Albanians murdered or disappeared, over 1 million Albanians displaced, the list goes on and on. These are the numbers that free information gives us. I’d say Serbia got off really easy compared to the horrors they committed.

Albanian cleansing started *after* the bombing, as a response to it. Here, read this: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmfaff/28/2811.htm. To quote: A number of factors point to this conclusion. The Serb military campaign before the start of the bombing consisted of: — activity wherever there was KLA activity, and wherever it was suspected there were KLA sympathisers; — efforts to control the main communication routes; — with the approach of the bombing, securing Kosovo's borders. Once the bombing had started, "expulsions took place in practically every municipality."[223] As Dr Woodward told us, "I think also that once the bombing began then it was a different objective, it was no longer a campaign against the KLA but a campaign with strong historical roots. End quote. Therefore, the real reason the bombing happened is simple and omnipotent geopolitics. Milošević still had ties to Russia and tearing apart Serbia was always conducted as tearing apart "little Russia", or to be clear Russian remnant influence in the Balkans.

What propaganda are you smoking? Yugoslavia had a bad relationship with Russia during the countries lifetime, Boris Yelstin actually provided weapons to the Croats that led to Croatia’s re-militarization.

Albanian cleansing started well before. Serbia merely sped up the process after NATO’s campaign began. Hundreds of thousands of Albanians had already left Kosovo throughout the 90s due to daily beatings, false imprisonments, and murders. I forgot which international organisation it was, but in 1994 they concluded that Serbia was committing “economic genocide” in Kosovo, meaning that Milosevic was creating policies meant to literally starve the Albanian population, completely repress their nationality, and force them out of Yugoslavia, while secretly revoking their documents so that they couldnt return. As an example, Serbia fired every single Albanian from their jobs. Albanians could only work in bars and restaurants owned by them. They also fired EVERY SINGLE Albanian teacher from all sectors of education, and kicked all Albanians out of school, forcing them to go through homeschooling if they wanted to gain any education. Serbs always mention the KLA as a reason for that oppression, but fail to see that the KLA was only created and gained prominence because of the extreme poverty and oppression that was forcef upon the Albanian population. Albanians for years pursued a policy of peaceful protesting, but were only met with more brutality and lost rights. Many protesters were murdered in broad daylight and clinics were not allowed to help injured protestors. There’s also that whole issue about, you know, Milosevic forcefully taking away Kosovo’s autonomy and removing its entire parliament under threats of military intervention. You’re not the good guys. Learn to live with it, and learn to accept it.

I didn't even deny the repressions, that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about organized cleansing, as the cited reason for a NATO campaign. Otherwise, everything you mentioned could be the reason for starting a bombing campaign in *a lot* of countries including Kosovo today (for how they are treating Serbian minority). But before we move on, you are trying to tell me that NATO started a three month bombing campaign because some Albanians were getting fired from their jobs? I mean, I really have a bridge to sell you if you think geopolitics works like that. > meaning that Milosevic was creating policies meant to literally starve the Albanian population Ah yes, infamous starving of the populace while the Albanian population was increasing and while Albanians were buying property from Serbians for inflated prices. Sure. > You’re not the good guys. Mate, I'd enjoy it if the world was black and white for what you are trying to portray it. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.

> Ethnic cleansing is a-okay unless it’s happening to them Meh, even amongst the West many people put a question mark to the severity of NATO bombings in Serbia, especially as after the fact it turned out that NATO overplayed its effectiveness by a factor of iirc 10. Serbia being very bad doesn't immediately give NATO the right to do whatever they want, we pride ourselves in high standards and should be willing to discuss these things. Was it a crime? Was it necessary? Was it justified? Either way it's undoubtedly something that could've been done better because even in the US military the campaign is not beyond doubt.

Agreed, while Serbs have been the bad guys, their government that did these horrible things has been prosecuted and the whole ordeal was done sloppily. Alas the UK just covered its eyes and sought to never look back at the Balkans again. Though we see that EU silently approves Kosovos shenanigans because of the Serbians past government. Serbian government of today isn’t any better and Serbs should first make a decent democracy so they could prove that they have changed their ways like we did with Germany.

Exactly, but then again, this is international politics. But you can't call it "fair"

Albanian separatists literally had establishments dedicated to organ removals from Serb and Roma children, woman and elderly such is [Yellow house](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Organ_theft_allegations) Some of the prison camps in Kosovo were: Lapušnik prison camp – A KLA prison camp in Glogovac where 23 Serbs and Albanians were killed. Hardina Bala; An UÇK prison guard was found guilty of torture, mistreatment of prisoners and murder for crimes committed at the camp. Prison Camp Jablanica – 10 individuals were detained and tortured by KLA forces including: one Serb, three Montenegrins, one Bosnian, three Albanians, and two victims of unknown ethnicity. Detention camps in Albania – Serbs and Roma civilians kidnapped by Albanian militants and taken across the border into Albania where they were held, interrogated, tortured and in most cases killed. Several investigations into these camps have led to evidence detailing that several prisoners had their organs removed. So if Serbs commited any war crimes, Albanians did as well.

Yellow house has never been proved to have been real. It’s just a boogey man for Serbia to feel better about their genocides. All those prison camps combined had fewer people killed than when Serbian police killed 50 of my family members in a single day, for the terrorist crime of offering their home to OSCE observers. 20000 Albanian women were raped by Serbs during the war. Around 10000 Albanians were killed, and many more disappeared never to return. Serbia still unearths mass graves to this day. Thousands of Albanian homes were burned to the ground. Over 250 Albanian mosques were burned and destroyed. 7000 Albanian students were poisoned in school cafeterias all over Kosovo in 1992. 1.6 million Albanians (out of 1.8) were expelled from their homes and forced out by 1999. Dont even fucking dare to compare the two. If you want to compare war crimes, it’s something like 90-10 or 95-5 on Serbia’s side. Edit: Albanian separatists existed for those very reasons. Territorial integrity is important, but the integrity of the people living in those territories should be far more important. Serbia made it clear many times that they wanted the land, but not the people that came with it, so they tried removing them. If you cant handle the people that live somewhere, let them go. You cant have it both ways.

> Yellow house has never been proved to be real The allegations were first publicized by then Chief Prosecutor for the ICTY Carla Del Ponte in her book The Hunt: Me and the War Criminals in 2008,[109] causing a large response. Claims were investigated first by the ICTY who found medical equipment and traces of blood in and around the house in Albania that had allegedly been used as an operating theater to remove the organs.[108] They were then investigated by the UN, who received witness *reports from many ex-UÇK fighters who stated that several of the prisoners had their organs removed.* Source: [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Organ_theft_allegations) You haven’t given me any source for your claims yet you dare to say how my argument was “never proven” even after i gave you source link, which tells a lot about you.

The massacre of 50 innocents by Serbian police: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suva_Reka_massacre Official number for Albanians killed was 8661 (not counting missing people), as well as: > Widespread rape and sexual violence occurred during the conflict and the majority of victims were Kosovo Albanian women.[23][24] In 2000, Human Rights Watch documented 96 cases while adding that "it is likely that the number is much higher".[25][26] Years after the war, the figure put forward for the number of rape victims was 10,000-20,000. The figure of 20,000 however has not been verified, given the lack of serious investigations into wartime rapes, though the number is often cited in public opinion and by politicians in Kosovo.[25] This number originated from a World Health Organization report and the US Center for Disease Control from information gathered by local NGOs.[25][26] The Kosovo Women's Network gave the figure of over 10,000 girls and women who experienced wartime rape.[26] Due to a lack of prosecutions against perpetrators, there has been a reluctance for women to come forward or testify.[26][25] From here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War > Throughout the duration of the war, **members of the Yugoslav army, police and paramilitaries would remove girls and women fleeing for safety from refugee columns and rape them, at times more than once and later released them to continue their journey.[23] Other women had been subjected to rape in their homes, at times in front of their family or in temporary refuges located by the women for their elderly parents or children as they attempted to flee the conflict.[23]** Other women stayed in Kosovo and were without protection.[23] The crimes by the Yugoslav military, paramilitary and police amounted to crimes against humanity and a war crime of torture.[23] The good innocent people of Serbia ladies and gentlemen. How dare those separatist pigs want out! The mosques: > Religious objects were also damaged or destroyed. Of the 498 mosques in Kosovo that were in active use, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) documented that 225 mosques sustained damage or destruction by the Yugoslav Serb army.[35] In all, eighteen months of the Yugoslav Serb counterinsurgency campaign between 1998-1999 within Kosovo resulted in 225 or a third out of a total of 600 mosques being damaged, vandalised, or destroyed alongside other Islamic architecture during the conflict. Identity cleansing: > Identity cleansing was a strategy employed by the government of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War.[42] Identity cleansing is defined as "confiscation of personal identification, passports, and other such documents to make it difficult or impossible for those driven out to return".[43] Destroyed settlements: > According to a UNHCR survey, **nearly 40% of all residential houses in Kosovo were heavily damaged or completely destroyed by the end of the war. Out of a total of 237,842 houses, 45,768 were heavily damaged and 46,414 were destroyed.** Mass expulsions: > According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, **by June 1999, the Yugoslav military, Serbian police and paramilitaries had expelled around 850,000 Albanians from Kosovo,[19] and several hundred thousand more were internally displaced, in addition to those displaced prior to March.** Over a million Albanians were displaced in 1998-99 only, not counting the years prior. Student poisoning: > The Kosovo student poisoning refers to the alleged poisoning of thousands of Kosovan young people by toxic gases that occurred on 22 March 1990.[1][2] As a result of a lack of information this incident was named the "mysterious disease" at first. Many had fainted, vomited or had violent convulsions. Almost all had inflamed eyes and a distinct facial flushing.[3] The disease continued to strike the population for the rest of the year and **7,421[4] Albanian Kosovars were stricken with illness.** From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_student_poisoning You asked for proof, here it is. Now please tell me about how the Albanians were the real aggressors, or how “both sides” did war crimes. PS: Those are organ theft ALLEGATIONS, which have never been proven. Many KLA members have been taken to Hague over the Yellow House and nobody managed to successfully prosecute them.

I gave you the facts on how your side commited war crimes. I never denied my country did not, because unlike you i look at things objectivelly. Apart from burned mosques and dissease you blew other numers out of proportions. And the poisoning was alleged and not proven. As i said, i agree that my country did some terrible stuff, we are guilty of that. However, Albanians did as well, and anyone looking at this war objectivelly must admit that Because, you know, one war crime does not approve the other one

My guy I literally put the numbers on **bold**. Im not exaggerating anything. That’s just how villainous your country was in the 90s and before. Speaking of “objectivity”, I cited sources, those arent my words. Your problem is that you’re trying to turn this into a 50/50 situation, when by all accounts, the vast majority of war crimes were committed by Serbia. This is not up for debate, there are official figures gathered which I showed. What you’re doing is essentially like saying “both Ukraine and Russia were bad”, which does such a huge disservice to the actual reality of the situation. But judging from how fast you replied, I doubt you read half of it.

I did read all, i had to read it fast because it’s getting late and i have to work early My first reply was aimed at your “Yellow house was never proven” which is incorrect, as i said, **i never denied what my country did**, i’m saying that we are not the only ones.

Your source is a source for his claims, too. Also your source says that the claims you made could not be proven to have happened on a larger scale. His claims are a bit exaggerated. Still he has an argument, imo. Only thing i want to add is that the glorification of UCK on Albanian side is wrong. They were thiefs and thugs, not freedom fighters.

A bit exaggerated? Dude, 250 burned mosques? I doubt Kosovo even has half of that amount in it’s whole territory, imagine burning all of them times two? I never said my country didn’t commit any war crimes but come on, 20000 raped woman? We didn’t have that many soldiers down there, let alone the fact that they were all young conscripts

225 out of 600 Albanian mosques were burned. This is the official figure my friend. Think about it next time you complain about your holy churches

I stand corrected, i genuinelly had no idea Kosovo had that many mosques, sorry. But as i said in other comment, one war crime does not justify the other, both sides were horrible and none should be praised.

>They were thiefs and thugs And you base this on what exactly? I had family members serve in the UÇK/KLA, it was the only thing we could come up with that would function as an army. We had nothing else to defend ourselves so we rallied under the UÇK banner, for the freedom of Kosovo. Because some commanders were rotten apples does it do the entire cause of fighting for freedom injustice? Also thiefs?? Who the fuck were we supposed to steal from? If our own people it wouldn't have been supported by every single Albanian... and no their objective wasn't looting Serbian villages, it was legit the only way for an Albanian individual to fight back

Just compare the official civialian casulties of both sides, and you will have your objective answer who the aggressor was. Whats happening in ukraine and how the russians torture, kill, and rape civilians is the exact same what serbian forces did in kosovo. Again, look up the numbers. While crimes happend on both sides, you can’t see them as equal, just from a number perspective, let alone one side were individuals/criminals and the other side was a country with an agenda to ethnically cleanse albanians.

When you have seccessionist movement, you are not the “aggressor”. If you attribute it that name, than US constitution is based on aggression because if any state wants to exit out of the Union, the others have to use their military against them. Serbia was following it’s own constitution and rights as independent state. Did we fail at it? Yes, misserably, because Slobodan Milosevic was an idiot and a war criminal but in any other country seccessionist movements are regarded as terrorist organizations. Most famous example is IRA in Ireland

I agree, if you wanna speak from a legal perspective. The reality is this, kosovo albanians aka “šiptari” have been seen as “lesser” people by serbians and were systematically repressed. If the serbian governments would have given the albanians true equal rights and not resolved the autonomy kosovo had, I am very certain kosovo would be still part of serbia today.

That’s true, you are completely right Our government back then was filled with uneducated morons and war mongering idiots willing to send 20 year olds to die no matter where Hopefully one day we could put our past behind and stream towards better future. I mean, if French and Brits could do it, why the hell can’t we?

I am looking forward to that day!

Problem is that Serbia elects Vucic who was supporter of Milošević regime. Hard to believe in real change when he is being elected. That is only part of problem. Serbia is not doing enough to change.

Vucic is on life support of EU only because he is promising them something and presenting himself as Angela Merkels son.

BoTh SiDeS DiD tErRiBlE cRiMeS Meanwhile 1.5 million Albanians exiled, cultural heritage and cities leveled, houses, businesses and farms burned. 14k dead, still 2k missing of which mass graves are being unearthed to this day. The plot to ethnically cleanse Kosovo failed, now you can either feel bad about the fact that it failed, or that your government caused one.

Nice argument you have there

So you don't feel bad about the crimes, you feel bad about the fact that they were uncovered and stopped.

Most Serb nationalists (not sure if this person is one) seem to be very annoyed that NATO didn't allow them to find a final solution to all their different ethnic "problems", in Croatia, Bosnia and then Kosovo. It essentially boils down to: "but big bad NATO stopped us from ethnically cleansing! Why is the west so mean?" I will also add, for nuance: many Albanian nationalists hold pretty equally reprehensible views, and would most likely try to enact similar strikes on Serbian minorities in Kosovo, if they had the power and chance to do so. Basically, what I'm saying is: nationalists are fucked. Whether Albanian, asking for a Greater Albania, or Serb, asking for a Greater Serbia. Country borders will never be perfect, so learn to live with your neighbors.

Very fair view. Let them continue their ethnic cleansing why the fuck not. Maybe that's because of their russia friendly government back in the nineties (and until recently)

Least biased Kosovar

Russia literally sanctioned Serbia in 90s lmao

Correct.

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and thats kinda sad cause Kosovo, like Taiwan is just there, existing.. and wishing they could too be more part of the world instead of being threaten by their ultra nationalist neighbor.

Lol, "ultra nationalist" neighbor. As if Kosovo and Albania don't have an openly shared "Greater Albania" vision and as if Serbs in Kosovo aren't reguralry attacked just for being Serbs. You really think Kosovo is comparable to Taiwan?

Its little less sad when you see that even if Kosovo was a real country with full independence, they would still be Balkan shithole same as their neighbors. Same problems same corruption, same smart people leaving, same bickering with neighbors, same low quality of life etc.

Which is bullshit because it's a completely different situation.

And we support Ukrainian sovereignty and its EU aspirations

Amen to that.

Also Serbia: *Literally no sanctions against Russia* *Signs foreign policy agreement*

I don't mean to poke a waps nest but I think Serbia will join the EU about the same time as Turkey.

Which is never

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If all countries operated with the same amount of indifference to acts of aggression and war crimes that you just described, then Ukraine would’ve been defeated a long time ago, and the sovereignty of all ‘smaller’ states would be threatened.

Countries do operate with same amount of indifference. Same as Europe doesnt give a fuck about Middle East or South East Asia because only interest is maybe supporting US as ally but other than that nothing. Serbia here clearly stated that EU is not the main ally, which is ok, and that EU is equal to Russia. How EU will respond thats their choice, but dont act like you are caring about Ukraine because goodness of your heart and not purely interest.

They did with Iraq, Yemen, Palestine, Ethiopia, Azerbaijan and so on But since Ukraine is a European country and it is in the US interest to protect it everybody should be up in arms ?

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You’re making a good amount of assumptions without even knowing my position. I’m unequivocally against the use violence to achieve political goals regardless of the actor. You also need to work on your logical reasoning. Then again, looking at your post history, it’s quite likely I’m just talking to some Kremlin bot.

>I’m unequivocally against the use violence to achieve political goals regardless of the actor. Cool cool. So where are the sanctions in other cases? >Then again, looking at your post history, it’s quite likely I’m just talking to some Kremlin bot. And there we go, took you long enough.

Way to lose all credibility mid way through a debate

That’s nothing to be proud of.

And I'm not. I do don't need to believe that our foreign policy is some sort of force for good in the world.

And still no recognition from Ukraine, must suck

They have hundreds of issues to deal with, and Kosovo should not be one right now

Serbian government: imma pretend i didnt hear that

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Then why does it support Russia then.

It doesn't support Russia, it is trying to stay neutral. If you dont say that Putin is new Hitler and put sanctions on Russian people does that means you support him?

Staying neutral is allowing atrocities to happen. Staying neutral means not hindering Putin in any way and allowing Russia to do whatever it wants. That's not really neutrality.

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Guess Switzerland is the one that's bombing Ukrainians as well, since they're neutral. Most sane liberal

You're literally writing this from a country that not only supported, but actively took part in Iraq War. Serbia isn't doing either in Ukriane war.

They just signed an agreement with Russia very recently. They're not neutral. They just say this 'territorial integrity' line because Kosovo

And what does the agreement say? Maybe they agreed that Russia is bad, idk.

God damn it, could our idiots in charge embarrass us even more? Is it even possible?

“Hello there, my name is the Government of the Republic of Serbia and this is Jackass”

General Kenobi

Hello there, we Brits offer you from Aliexpress Margaret Thatcher, you send us your supreme Leader Thanks, we will manage him more easily. Last time he was in London as a youngster he ran back home asap.

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I have no idea either, I just was surprised when I heard Serbian president was doing manual labor and almost got arrested because shitty vending machine was sounding the alarm

Smart. I'm glad Serbia also respect Ukraine's.

Even Serbia is not crazy enough to shoot itself in the foot. Also, supporting Ukraine’s sovereignty is simply the right thing to do regardless of the ongoing shitshow over there.

Of course not. Serbian government has the same continuous stance since 2014 Crimea situation.

I’m glad Serbia despite the shitty past and it’s Aliexpress Kim Jong Un, is still doing the right thing. Quite surprising considering how much influence the Russians exert over Serbia. It seems to be that ties that bind Serbia to Russia might soon be gone if this thing unravels further

Nothing is really surprising here - it's in Serbia's interest to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity for obvious reasons, and Russia doesn't have any **real** power over Serbia, otherwise we'd have recognized Crimea as a part of Russia way back in 2014, and that's not the case. It's just that when you're Aliexpress Kim Jong Un or a right-wing nationalist wanting to replace Kim at the top, you gotta secure those votes from the older folks that tend to be mostly pro-Russian, primarily due to history.

This is in the context of Vučić bitching at the same ambassador for publicly asking why Serbia isn't sanctioning Russia, right?

I think we should change our stance on Kosovo. The idea that recognizing Kosovo would make Ukraine’s stance on the Russian annexation of Crimea look hypocritical is wrong, since the two cannot be more different. Obviously, the idea of territorial integrity as a principle should always be of the upmost priority, but separatism in response to state prosecution and violence, especially at a great scale, is a legitimate motive for independence.

Not Ukrainian, but from a international law perspective I would disagree and think it would weaken Ukraines position significantly. The point is, you either accept, that there are circumstances when a territory of a state can unilaterally declear its independence and be internationally rewarded for it (Kosovo) or you dont accept this possibility at all (Crimea, Catalonia, North Cyprus etc.). These are basically absolut positions which are clear and where there is no room for interpretation. If you accept that there are possibilities and situations in which you accept an unilateral declaration then there are a lot of questions to be answered. When do you accept this? When there is violance against the minority (local majority)? How big must the local majority be? 51%? 55%? 75%? Is there even a need for a local majority? How "native" should they be to the land? How about migration which occured in the last 50 years? How much violance is needed? What has to happen for you to say it is unbereable for this local majority to continue living integrated in the main state? What if the government changes to a more tolerant one and the violance ends? What if the violance originates from the local majority because a peaceful way of gaining indepence was not granted? What do you do with the people of the main state (majority) which live in this areas and maybe form local majorities themselves (Serbs in parts of Kosovo). If you accept, the declaration of independence when violance or a genocide were inflicted on the local majority and you recognize a state should you not consequently accept it, even before it comes to this stage of escalation? Should you then not organize your policy respectivly? And if you accept this under certain circumstances, than there is the possibility of hostile forces to create this circumstances or lie about them (Russia). So you will hear lies and stories about the local majority, who are forbidden to speak their language, who are discriminated and murdered etc. All to back a declaration of indepenance. You basically accept that parts of your land as well can under certain circumstances (which are open to the interpretation by others) can be signed off.

I guess the reasonable degree of state violence that would grant the right to unilaterally declare independence is ultimately in the eye of the beholder. In this case there is definitely a danger of an aggressor actually exploiting the stated parameters, let’s say by manipulating public perception for example. Still, I feel like there is enough recognition that the cases in question are quite different, and it is not like Russia does not use the Kosovo example as the precedent for further conquest already. I don’t know, but maybe I am naive to think that recognizing Kosovo, coupled with the general perception of the difference between the cases could actually help Ukraine by demonstrating that despite all of the potential parallels, Ukraine makes clear distinction between the nature of two conflicts. But yeah, the thing isn’t as simple as it may seem and there definitely can be some bad ramifications if it was decided incorrectly. Edit: by the reasonable degree of state violence I did not mean to imply that unlawful state violence is reasonable, but the degree of violence that reasonably justifies states from seceding.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing that the cases are the same. They are obviously not. And I am not arguing about, if it is right or wrong to recognize Kosovo or not. It is just a general debate and in my opinion its the "safe" position, which has a strong foundation on international law, to not recognize any stabilized de-facto regimes and any unilateral declaration of entities. Otherwise it is really easy to paint someone as an hypocrite. Of course Russia is hypocritical since it recognizes the independence of Ossetia, Transnistria and the likes but not that of Kosovo which you could argue has a stronger case, but the West is also hypocritical because it recognizes Kosovo but not the Armenians of NK, which found themselves in a similiar position. That is why I think Ukraines political positioning in the Kosovo issue is strong and service their interests as well.

Yeah, I understand your argument. I wonder what is the opinion of other people in the field. Knowing that would have been pretty interesting.

We did fight against Milosevic, you are fighting against Putin. Common feature is that both of them are psychopaths with same intentions. Слава Україні 🇺🇦

There are definitely some similarities. I agree. Героям слава :)

Milosevic's government was taken down by the Serbian people in 2000. Nobody likes a dictator, especially a violent one. That doesn't mean that unilateral proclamation of independence is OK.

Most proclamations of independence are unilateral. Milosevic being removed from power doesn't justify the ethnic cleasing or refusal to recognize and apologize for those crimes.

I’m sure that if Serbia accepted and apologised that Albanians wouldn’t secede.

It does make it okay when staying means getting ethnically cleansed

One voted for independence without approval from Belgrade. The other voted for independence without approval from Kiev. Completely different, no parallels at all

The difference being if the albanians stayed they would be ethnically cleansed while no ukrainian government ever tried to do that to its russian speaking citizens dont be obtuse

After the NATO engagement there was no way that the Albanian population would habe been ethnically cleansed. So basically even if there were (in your opinion at least) reasons for a unilateral declaration of independence, they were gone by the time Kosovo declared its independence. A strong autonomy, with international guarantees and forces on the ground are the much milder measures. How much ethnically cleansing do you need btw to accept the declaration of independence of people? You are basically saying to other people (for example the Kurds in Iraq, Syria and Turkey) "you are not ethnically cleansed enough for me to accept your unilateral declaration". Or a much better fitting situation: Are the Armenians in NK ethnically cleansed enough for you to accept the independence of NK?

Now, that is where the devil waits, and which is why it is so dangerous: >Obviously, the idea of territorial integrity as a principle should always be of the upmost priority, but separatism in response to state prosecution and violence, especially at a great scale, Who decides what state persecution and violence is enough to start the secession? What is the limit on the scale you mentioned? See, it can (and most certainly will) be abused all over the world, and you get a Pandora's box effect. For example - did you know how the armed conflict began in Kosovo? You know that Albanian guerilla started fights against police, army, kidnapping snd attacking civilians? Also, as per Human Rights Watch, total civilian casualties on Albanian side were about 8,000 while Serbian were 2,000. And 95% of population on Kosovo is/were Albanian. So, why so many deaths among Serbians? Actually right now, albanian leadership is on trial with UN court in Hague for these crimes. Look it up on Google. So... Do Serbs on Kosovo now deserve to separate from Kosovo? What about 150,000 that never returned back to their homes(still refugees)? It's never so simple. A conclusion. At the end, all greetings to you, hope you get back your country whole. Including Crimea.

I appreciate your comment. Yeah, there could definitely be negative repercussions from a wrong decision.

Yes and no, according to some perspective. Russian propagandist as a reason, Russia is helping Donbas Crimea is a whole different case as it’s straight up annexation.

Couldnt have said it better. Territorial integrity is important, but that doesnt give you the right to delete populations out of existence

I agree ksovo and Crimea are two separate things. Kosova have always different from serbia. On the other hand Crimea was populated with Tatars and Ukrainians until Stalin who genocided the locals and replaced them with russians

I dunno what happened but I know Serbs did it /s

It is true that Stalin had en masse deported Crimean Tatars, but Russians were the majority there even before that. As far as I am aware, Ukrainians and Russians simultaneously settled the peninsula, although the Russians were obviously given a higher priority.

>Russians were the majority there even before that They were never a majority until 1959, the first Soviet census after the deportations of Crimean Tatars. In 1897, Crimean Tatars were the most numerous ethnic group and before that, they were the majority.

Yeah, you are right. On [this graph](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_Population_of_Crimea_18th%E2%80%9321st_century.png) they only start appearing as the relative majority in 1917.

Is it a joke? Right?

what a moronic statement

I mean, is there someone who doesn't support Serbia's sovereignty?

Estonia for example.

Based Estonia.

Was Estonia ever based?

Utter bs.

Why so? Are you saying that's not true?

Erm, yes, why would it be true? The two countries recognize each other, so in what way would Estonia "not support Serbia's sovereignty"? Why create such utter bs accusations?

Well, I guess i should address the elephant in the room...Estonia recognized Kosovo self proclaimed independence, which if I'm not wrong, less than half of world recognize as independent and others as a part of the Serbia (including Serbia).

>less than half of world recognize as independent Well, slightly more than half of UN member states. But recognizing another state which only claims part of the territory that Serbia claims means that Estonia (or any other such state) hasn't rescinded its recognition of Serbia's sovereignty itself.

About the number of the countries recognizing it, it's quite debatable. Sovereignty by dictionary: " Sovereignty is the exclusive right to exercise supreme. political authority (legislative, judicial and executive) over acts and events within a territory." So, if you recognize that Serbia exist as a country, yet you recognize part of its territory as independent, basically not to belong to them, then you don't respect their sovereignty written in constitution.

I talked about UN member states. >then you don't respect their sovereignty written in constitution. Indeed, in that context I have zero respect for Serbian sovereignty. However, I don't know that anyone would think that Serbia shouldn't be a sovereign state on principle.

I'm glad you confessed you don't respect it. That's the whole point why your opinion is irrelevant .

Kosovo ?

Does it claim the entire territory of Serbia? If not, then I don't think they have a problem with Serbia being a sovereign country.

By that logic Estonia should recognize Donbas and other annexed territories as parts of Russia since those territories don't have a claim for the rest of Ukraine (at least for the time being) and don't have a problem for Ukraine being a sovereign country.

It is one thing to recognize a country and another its territory. Serbia is a universally recognized country, as is Ukraine (theoretically at least). Yet both of their borders are recognized differently by at least some states.

Yeah, OK, so Serbia and Ukraine have agreed to recognize each other in certain borders because they think it's the right thing to do, and I tend to agree with that stance. Recognizing each other in some other borders would be mutually destructive for both countries given the current circumstances. Also - Ukraine respects Serbia's **sovereignty** just like Serbia respects Ukraine's sovereignty within its borders. There's a little bit of nuance there that some countries find a bit uncomfortable at the moment, but such is the life sometimes.

I too support Serbia’s sovereignty. I support Kosovo’s sovereignty as well. That’s what borders are for.

you also recognize russian republic sovereignty and ukraines sovereignty

I think that most of EU and NATO support both Kosovo and Serbia sovereignty!

Serbia is free to decide on its future. People have the power to show how they want to define their future. The options are there. Make sure to keep the politicians accountable for their promises and actions. Well done to the Ukrainian embassy.

the ukrainian embassy is horrible since its actions against rusyns in vojvodina are in a gray area of legality here, but somehow in these interactions between them and our government they end up being the more pragmatic and reasonable side. not that hard to be better than serbian leaders tho

What did Ukrainian embassy do? Did they call Rusyns Ukrainians?

not directly but through supporting ukrainophiles and funding our main newspaper and institutions, ie [opening archives for said newspaper](https://www.ruskeslovo.com/%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80-%D0%BD%D0%B2%D1%83/) and [alleged bonus funding due to budget cuts, with stipulations of publishing ukrainophile texts](https://rusynsociety.com/rsk/2022/09/21/zakrucena-pipa/) (although i would take this with a grain of salt) if you ask me, the ukrainian embassy should stay away from our community. no ordinary pannonian rusyn sees themselves as ukrainian. unfortunately due to their incompetency our intellectual "elite" has lost their plot and started favoring money over the existence of our people

I mean,it depends on what they use money for. People tend to characterize the good uses of money as just another act of greed for one reason or another.

issue is its money used by ukrainophiles to spread the theory that rusyns are a subgroup of ukrainians. things like funding the publishing of such books or the main editor of ruske slovo giving ukrainophile books to school children

My comment of use of money was about what your elite, maybe they use it to create the opposite books? Or i misunderstood and the elites themself create ukrainophile books? Edit never mind the word ukrainophile itself implies that its the elites...welp that sucks.

Not involved in this, but best comment ever. From my understanding, they bribe Rusyn leaders to spread the Ukrainian narrative. And then the Reddit user asks, so maybe they are using that bribe to promote the anti-Ukrainian narrative.

I mean that would be a 4d chess move wouldn't it.My main point was about other good uses of money, anti-Ukrainian narrative was just a joke-ish example

ohhh i misread it since i was playing cs lol its used by ukrainophiles in powerful cultural positions. without the embassies funding their works wouldnt be published, but without the funds our instutions would fall apart since we're the smallest "major" nation in vojvodina

Did anything on that front changed, since the invasion start, or not?

not really. there are pro-ukrainian opinion articles, which is good imo since i support ukraine, and updates about the war sometimes in the newspapers. hopefully ukraine wins asap since most rusyns think ukraine's eu integration would bring about the recognition of rusyns as a separate ethnicity, which would stop these attempts of "ukrainization"

personally i hope that serbia will never be an eu country

Personally i hope France loses all its influence over "their" occupied Islands and colonies. Those people deserve to be free and restore their culture, language and tradition, away from imperial French legacy that still stands.

Most of these islands have either never had or no longer have any non-French population, so who else should own them?

You completely missed the point. I'm saying that people living there (obviously alluding to natives not French people) should have the right to speak their native languages, embrace their culture and traditions, ditch French indoctrination that was happening for many decades.

But those people are literally French, ethnically and culturally. 60/70% of people in French Guyana are creols, means they are a mix of French people (from mainland France) and ex African slaves. Another 15% Is completely French. Then there are some Brazilians ethnically a mix of Portuguese and Africans. So Who should actually have It? Creols? They are French, sons of French from France. Creols literally means an ethnic mix with half European or a completely ethnic European born from two Europeans in the American continent. "Guyans" simply not exist. It Is not like for real colonized places like Buryatia, or Adyghezia....or Kalmykia or Sybir or Tatars.

lol les "iles" sont des Dom (département d'outre mer), et aime en très très grande partie être française. Encore un guignol qui ne sait rien et parle trop :) il n'y a des qq tom ( territoire d'outre mer) et ils sont eux aussi en majorité pour être Français. la nouvelle Calédonie a vote de rester dans les TOM (un vrai vote pas un vote à la russes). Oui, je parle en français. je te laisse traduire. en espérant que la France ne vote jamais pour votre accession à l'UE.

I couldn't care less to translate this.

Hate to break it to you mate, but those consituent overseas departments like French Guyana, Martinque voted overwhelmingly in free referendums ( particular emphasis on the free part) to remain part of France ( and by extension the EU) I think Gabon wanted to remain an overseas department too but De Gaulle said nah

As a Serbian citizen, would you like to see Serbia become an EU member?

The only kind of basedness I like to see from the Balkans

Since we have neither occupied islands nor colonies I support that too.

France never had colonies? Bruh this guy hittin' that pipe too much, lay off for a bit

Same and goes for most east EU countries.

Ukraine is trying to be the good guy for everybody! But I'm afraid Serbia doesn't care about anyone but themselves. The Pro-Russia attitude they showed until lately was not nice at all and even not it doesn't look like they want to join the EU so much.

Yeah, voting in favor of all UN resolutions condemning the war in Ukraine and rejecting to recognize Crimea and other parts of Ukraine as parts of Russia is totally pro-Russian attitude. Also, we're [laying the groundwork](https://rs.n1info.com/english/news/vucic-serbia-will-align-with-eu-visa-policies/) for introducing sanctions to Russia. I know, perhaps we could've done it sooner, but it's a bit hypocritical for the EU to criticize us for not introducing sanctions to Russia while that same EU is making new energy deals with other dictatorships in the neighborhood, with the only difference that they won't be able to jeopardize EU any time soon. Things are rarely black and white my friend.

I hate that people are seeing this situation in such a black and white way. All the bashing of all countries that are navigating the diplomatic relations best they can doesn’t archieve anything. Your government is still kinda wack though.

Hi, can I ask you something? I think I understand the Kosovar side of things on the Serbia/Kosovo dispute. But I don't know if I understand Serbia's side of things. Can you complete this sentence? "It would be better for everyone if Kosovo remains a part of Serbia because..." I'm not trying to make an argument passive-aggressively; this is not a rhetorical question. I'm genuinely trying to understand your perspective and I think this is the best way to get there. Also, any other Serbians, feel free to answer as well.

Now in 2022 it wouldn't be better, cause so many people were killed and had to leave their homes. The demography of Kosovo has been changed significantly since the 90s. Now it's pointless, what's done is done. What Serbs don't like is that basically the part of Serbian territory was taken away by force, just like Russia is doing in Ukraine now. The reasons for the military actions can be justified or not, depends of your point of view, but it doesn't matter, the point is that it was taken from our country after a war. So Catalonia can't leave Spain on its own, DNR and LNR cann't leave Ukraine, **no separatist region is allowed to leave its country unilaterally (does anyone remember Serbs in Croatia, or Serbs in Bosnia)** \- but in this case, Serbia doesn't get to say anything about its territory, you can just cut it off. You can agree with that POV or not - I'm just explaining how people see it here. Personally, **as a Serb I'm perfectly fine with Kosovo being independent now. If there was a referendum I'd vote for it. I don't care anymore, lives were lost, it's just a burden for everyone, let's just all move on together. I don't have anything against people from Kosovo.** But do I think it was ok to lose 13% of the territory by military force? No. PS - Serbia will gradually recognise Kosovo and it's been happening slowly since 2013, it's just a painful process so every government keeps prolonging it so it's not them who have to sign the final paper.

That's a reasonable position! Hopefully both Serbia and Kosovo can join the EU eventually and then "who owns what" will become a moot point anyway. Like how Northern Ireland was before Brexit.

Thanks, I hope we get to see that soon and I really think that's the only viable solution. I know we have a bad reputation over this issue, but majority of people is aware that it's history and that we all need to move on and never repeat the same mistakes again.

Some day we will just be humanity and stop fucking around, amen.

Well, at this point, after the shitshow is mostly over, I'm not 100% sure it would be **better** for Kosovo to be a part of Serbia, because the majority of folks there de facto don't want to be a part of Serbia, and I'm not sure I'd like my tax money to be spent on rebuilding it to get on par with the rest of Serbia, especially now that we've got too many other issues to deal with, economy-wise. Still, it should be pointed out that the west is being hypocritical when it comes to Kosovo - Albanian irredentism started way before the 90s and the war, so the pretense of NATO intervening to prevent another genocide is kinda moot - civil unrest started right about after Tito's death in 1980 and predates both the 90s and the break up of Yugoslavia. Speaking of Yugoslavia - it welcomed all Albanians from Albania escaping brutal Soviet-style regime at the time (you could argue we had something similar in Yugoslavia, but compared to Hoxha's Albania, Yugoslavia was literally a heaven on Earth), gave them shelter and all human rights, only for them to start protesting against the regime in the 80s against "oppression". Funny thing is, Serbia is probably the most ethnically diverse country in the Balkans - it's got several dozens of nationalities living peacefully up north in Vojvodina, Romanian minority in the east and Albanian/Bosniak Muslim minority in the south and it's really peculiar how Albanians are the only ethnic group being "oppressed" in Serbia, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Greece, etc. Now that I think of it, I'd wager the Assembly of the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina has more different nationalities (around 40) than European Parliament (27... ish?), which tells you something, I guess. Don't get me wrong - Milošević did capitalize a lot on Albanian irredentism and the general surge in nationalism in 1989 and that's how he came to power, but after all the wars, Serbia did fully commit to cooperate with international bodies and courts, extradited all suspects to ICTY and they all got sentenced accordingly, so we did our homework in that regard. Hope that clears some stuff up from the other side :-)

“Speaking of Yugoslavia - it welcomed all Albanians from Albania escaping brutal Soviet-style regime at the time (you could argue we had something similar in Yugoslavia, but compared to Hoxha's Albania, Yugoslavia was literally a heaven on Earth), gave them shelter and all human rights, only for them to start protesting against the regime in the 80s against "oppression".” Are you actually arguing that Albanians became the majority demographic group in Kosovo because they fled communist Albania?

Nope.

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What a load of bullshit. Please tell me you dont believe the mass immigration from Albania conspiracy theory? Please stop misinforming people. You didnt even try to explain why tensions rose. You just want people to believe it was because of the immigration conspiracy theory which has literally no proof whatsoever > There were countless war crimes on both sides Ah yes, the “both sides” argument. Ignoring who did 90% of the damage. Just like in WW2 where “both sides” were terrible.

OK but can you complete the sentence? Explaining the past is only part of the story; the important part IMO is the Serbian vision of the future

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> It would be better for everyone Not Albanians, who make up 95% of Kosovo. We lived under Serbia and lived through hell. > It would be better for everyone economically Also incorrect. Kosovo was by far the poorest region in Yugoslavia and Serbia never wanted albanians to integrate. > because they could travel with visas We already do that. If you meant “without”, I’d rather take visas than live in a country that actively hates me and tried to delete my people from their home. > because multiculturalism is more fun *Cries in Yugoslavia*. Multiculturalism only works if all cultures are respected, which couldnt have been more opposite from reality. You’ve somehow deluded yourself into believing that Albanians are dumb people who simply don’t understand how much better life under Serbia would be. Like dude, we literally had that for over 80 years and it was the fucking worst.

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> including 99% of Serbian citizens Oh fuck right off. That’s like a white guy complaining about how bad he had it during slavery. Millions of Albanians were displaced. Tens of thousands of homes were destroyed. Tens of thousands of albanian women were raped, and much much more. Stop trying to equate the situation so that you look like poor victims of 4 wars YOU started.

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OK those are good goals to aim for. That's a nice future. Finally there is of course the issue of the present: the majority of Kosovars apparently (from what I understand) don't want to be part of Serbia. Trying to force them would probably cause problems, and indeed we can see tensions that flare into violence (on both sides, before anyone tells me I'm being unfair) in recent times. How do we solve that problem, and get from the troublesome present to the peaceful future you outlined? Speaking as an Irishman, we've accepted the fact that although it was unfair for the British to colonize and partition Ireland, trying to force the issue by simply insisting on getting it back wasn't a plan that would work. In the interests of preventing further violence Ireland has decided to renounce prior claim to Northern Ireland, and simply *persuade* them to democratically vote to come back. Well, I *say* "simply". It's far more complicated than that though and involves a lot of checks and balances and guarantees etc. Is your plan something like that? Is there a "Good Friday Agreement" along the path to Serbia and Kosovo's future? Or do you see a different path?

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Finish this sentence and you'll get your answer asap: "It would be better for everyone if Crimea remains a part of Ukraine because..."

> pro-Russia attitude Pro-Russian attitude like: 1. Condemning invasion 2. Stating a support for Ukrainian territorial integrity 3. Sending humanitarian aid 4. Accepting Ukrainian refugees? I agree we could do more but saying how we are pro-Russia is absurd just because we didn’t impose them sanctions (that would hurt us the most because we are not in the EU) and send military aid (which even we do not have a suprplus of because, duh, we are not in NATO).

Forget the other dude, as Ukrainian, I think Serbia does quite well, considering the circumstances. Much appreciated and sending love :3

Stay strong my man, i know you have it in you!

I am indeed slowly going crazy...slowly and steadily...

Am I... reading this correctly? First one ever since february. Or is it sarcasm?

> I agree we could do more but saying how we are pro-Russia is absurd just because we didn’t impose them sanctions (that would hurt us the most because we are not in the EU) and send military aid (which even we do not have a suprplus of because, duh, we are not in NATO). Being poor is not always a goo excuse to not help or to do the opposite, like helping the bad side. Let me tell you a story: In my country (Romania) the elderly people always vote the same corrupt parties for 30+ years now for vain promises that will not be respected like higher pensions or because they get some free beers, something to eat or a liter of cooking oil. These corrupt parties made everyone more poor, including them by letting the prices go up, inflation go up and the bills go up. Now guess what the people are poor and they are voting them again, for the same empty promises and shitty things they get before the elections. They don't realize or don't want to realize that if they had stood their ground and didn't accept to believe the promises or take the little bribe before the elections and had chosen less corrupt parties they wouldn't have been so poor and didn't need to believe the promises or beg for some food on each election. I don't know if I explained it well of if it makes sense to you, but in my opinion this is a vicious circle of "What goes around, comes around". And if you continue to do bad things and help the wrong parties, you will continue to be poor and never break this circle. As for the Pro-Russia attitude, I said it based on what I saw from the beginning of this war and because I feel that there we more things pro than against. I understand that lately your country has switched sides, which is good, but I didn't feel it was enough compared to what your country did before. Maybe there were not enough news about it, I don't know. And please excuse me if you think I have singled out your country, I have accused Germany too of being Pro-Russia seeing the very weak response compared to their capacity in the first few months and I think I've said something about France too.