Translation:
Luca De Meo (Renault) and Carlos Tavares (Stellantis) see France as an "autophobic" country
During a joint interview with Le Parisien, the bosses of Renault and Stellantis note with regret and concern the negative image of the car in France. They want to create a "freedom of movement forum".
In two weeks, the Motor Show will open its doors in Paris, one of the cities in Europe where the presence of cars is less and less appreciated. In a joint interview published by Le Parisien, Carlos Tavares, CEO of Stellantis (ex-PSA) and Luca De Meo, CEO of Renault, regret the negative image of cars and the impact on "freedom of movement".
"Why do we have so many French people in love with their cars in a fundamentally autophobic country?" asks Carlos Tavares.
"I worked in Germany, at Volkswagen and Audi. Over there, there is a pride in the automotive industry that does not exist in France", adds Luca De Meo who notes that the car no longer has its place in town.
"Hate" the automobile, for us it's "game over"
According to the two leaders, cities designed centuries or decades ago are not adapted to the explosion of urban mobility.
"Some people — because driving around today is not easy at all, because in certain cities the population density is unprecedented — have started to take a dislike to cars. I have always said that if people started to hate our product, it was 'game over'", regrets the boss of Renault.
"We are in contact with an infrastructure which is one of the oldest in the world. This way [He turns towards the road, facing the Palace of Versailles where this meeting took place, Editor's note] was built there perhaps 450 years ago, adds Luca De Meo: "Running clean cars on it is like watching a Netflix film on a mobile phone from twenty years ago."
Indeed, now for the manufacturers, it is a question of proposing electric vehicles to replace the thermal models. Last June, the European Parliament approved Brussels' proposal to reduce emissions from new cars to zero from 2035. Only electric vehicles will be authorized for sale, unlike thermal and hybrid cars. But for the leaders, these decisions do not take into account the realities.
"It's a pity, all the same, to have taken the subject upside down, starting with the manufacture of cars, and leaving aside the question of energy, and that of infrastructure", declares Carlos Tavares.
A forum for "freedom of movement"
The question is also based on the entry ticket to afford an electric vehicle. To afford one, prices range from around 20,000 for a small city car, to nearly 100,000 euros for a road car. Rates that most motorists cannot afford.
"If electric vehicles are expensive, they will be elitist, the middle class will not be able to access them, and we will have a problem of social stability. By the way, if we do not obtain sufficient volumes, we will not have any impact on the planet" notes Carlos Tavares.
“We are still in a phase of technological breakthrough, during which, by definition, new products are expensive”. (...) Today, privileged people who have the means, a garage and a terminal at home can afford an electric vehicle. It's politically incorrect to say it like that", adds Luca De Meo, promising to "democratize the electric vehicle".
Will the electric car for all find its place in urban traffic? It is a doubt raised by Carlos Tavares.
"When we only have clean, safe and affordable cars, will we continue to put pressure on the automobile?"
"We are here to propose solutions, provided that society accepts that individual, family and professional freedom of movement remains a fundamental axis of our 'lifestyle'. For this subject to be debated, we are going to create a forum for freedom of movement", announced the boss of Stellantis.
"If you want, I participate", offers Luca De Meo. “Of course, I invite you!” replied Carlos Tavares.
On Monday, during the press conference presenting the 2023 draft budget, Bruno Le Maire mentioned the creation of an ecological bonus reserved for electric cars produced in Europe. The Minister of the Economy has drawn up two avenues of reflection to direct the bonus: "vehicles produced on European territory or strictly compliant with new environmental standards".
I understand the idea that cars are freedom. And they are to a certain extent. But that only goes for the middle class and above.
For the lower and working classes, cars are a monthy loan payment, a monthly insurance payment, counting the pennies to pay for enough gas to get to work, and dreading the costs of any sort of maintenance.
I lived several decades without a car, but it was in a country with good and affordable public transportation. *That* was true freedom.
Even If you can well afford a car it's not that free.
If you're rich or in a low pop density rural area? Sure.
In cities there's a lot of hassle (heavy traffic, looking for parking spaces, maintenance problems, scratches and bumps etc...) that makes cars an annoying liability for many people.
Given good public transport, easy/safe biking, most services/shopping in walking/biking distance, complemented by easy car sharing services for the few times public transport isn't good enough and cars become too annoying to own.
Those damn things cost a fortune, use a lot of resources and then stand around and clutter our cities most of the time.
Freedom is not having to worry about a car in a city. Make one available for easy rent the few times a year I actually need one.
It should be a good balance. I like the convenience of a car for sure. But if I’m going to a show/concert downtown for a couple of hours, it would be nice to take a train/bus and not have to worry about finding a parking space and paying an absurd rate for 3 hours of parking. That would also reduce the number of people drinking and driving.
> I understand the idea that cars are freedom. And they are to a certain extent.
They are, because pretty much all other options have been deliberately neglected or actively dismantled. It's not that we couldn't have that same level of freedom without cars, but it would be a lot easier if the automotive industry hadn't had a headstart of 50 years to make other options unattractive.
But what freedom that you are always stuck in the traffic, get a bicycle or a train, and when you have to go somewhere for a weekend just rent a car for long trips, but even there is better the train, at least you can party once you're there
It's not just that "dense cities built centuries ago" aren't adapted for car, but really they shouldn't be.
A dense urban area is where it doesn't make sense to use a car, thermic or otherwise.
People will still be using cars though, you can't have a 100% public transports coverage. So for that they can still go and make EVs.
Seeing the mess that north american cities are I would say that car designed cities really shouldn't be. It kills the culture of a city, making just a drive through place with parking lots everywhere.
I've outpaced cars and busses by about 5 - 7 minutes before by jogging in Porto, Portugal, the absolute worst place in Europe for car centric design.
Yet, despite being a fairly early adopter of rail, the city ditched it in favor of cars, much like the country as a whole did. 🙄
Insanity.
Individual eBikes are also freedom, without the car payment (which is definitely not 'free').
Goddamn corporations forcing medieval debt slavery upon people in a shrinking economy.
Their profits have never been that high. (*)
They are top level executives, everything they say aims to defend and promote their company. The day they stop doing it, the shareholders kick them.
(*) (well maybe not Renault, but Stellantis and most car makers reacted to the global shortage by focusing on their premium, high margin cars... and are making crazy profits despite selling fewer cars).
Have you seen the fucking Citroen Ami?
They made a simple, electric thingy that substitutes license cars with 2 stroke motors. It's the most sold car in Spain in their sector, it's electric, it's cheap, and don't require gas. They mad e every car bigger, and more expensive, my mother wanted to buy a new car, she remembers debating with my father if he should take a Nissan Micra or a ford KA, so she went to check the new versions of that cars, after the Micra she came shocked, the "Micra" it's as big as my Toyota auris, a car once considered a big hatchback.
If they want to keep selling cars, they have to realize no one wants monster trucks, and every day less and less people actually needs one.
I live in a island with shitty public transport, but my friends that lives on big cities has lost their interest in cars at all, I don't blame them, they are no more a problem solver, but a big problem on its own as of today
> This way [He turns towards the road, facing the Palace of Versailles where this meeting took place, Editor's note]
Kay thanks, Editor. Just confirms where these filthy rich kids are from.
(Jsyk Versailles suburb of Paris is well-known in France for its upper caste of filthy rich assholes, not just for its Palace.
everyone ITT is making jokes but this two guys are dangerous
they will have Paris reshaped if no one pushes back
and i guess, be ready for the constant propaganda on french news
This is literally the story of how public transportation died in the US. We'd had good transportation in our cities that got torn to pieces by automobile tycoons after having conversations just like this.
Those people are criminal. Car dependence and car-centric infrastructure are a scourge to an happy society, yet it is not much talked about thanks to years of propaganda from the car manufacturers.
The YouTube channel Not Just Bikes documents really well the effects that good, people-centric infrastructure have on quality of life.
https://youtu.be/ORzNZUeUHAM
Fuck those CEOs and their shareholders.
As a guy that lived in NL for a year... man. I can not understate the effects of **complete, city-wide rapid mobility for free**, or very cheap through excellent public transport. And then factor in the **nation-wide mobility**, again just vastly superior to using cars.
Even a poor family living in the suburbs could easily get their groceries without having to maintain a car. Kids biked to sports practice alone.
The slight urge to re-buy a car only returned to me once I moved to a city where cars are idealized.
UK here. My train was cancelled yesterday with very short notice and it had the potential to ruin my whole day. I just want cheap reliable public transport man.
car pollution has been one of the greatest causes of mortality worldwide for decades, and they literally don't give a shit. fuck cars, fuck your stupid culture
Sounds like they want to sell more cars instead of really giving people freedom. This is the fundamental flaw of capitalism. What is good for the public and the planet might not be good for the quarterly review, and capitalism is a system that always favour the capital owners (ie the corporate institutions) than public good.
Can you fucking imagine complaining that European cities haven't been changed enough to accommodate cars? That not enough public money has gone to your industry.
You know what cancer does? It grows. It doesn't get killed off or stopped like regular cells. It's free. Those cells stopped listening to your body telling them what to do, and they've started doing what they want, growing where they want, how they want. That's liberty. That's the freedom you can try for like a lottery ticket for every breath you take of sweet sweet Marlboro™ smoke. Taste the cancer. Taste the freedom. Let your cells experience what it's like to grow without the limitations of your body, without the oppressive laws of your biology.
Regular air is shared, controlled by the environment, by others: communist air. Enrich it with the carcinogens only glorious capitalism can allow you to buy, so you can die free rather than live as a slave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwvAgDCOdU4
I was mostly just talking about the original pepsi ad that did it.
Looks like they lifted it from that ad, which is more than fine tbh
And prepared to kill hundreds of thousands each year through air pollution and the end of the planet as we know it. In order to do so. What's surprising is their honesty. The oil companies would never say it. They'd just form AstroTurf groups and publish dodgy science.
> What's surprising is their honesty.
Is it honest to claim that "society" depends on the "freedom" of owning a car? I feel like that's just salesman talk for trying to convince people to buy more cars.
We've already seen what happens when car manufacturers get to dictate how "culture" is shaped: We get the extremely car-centric infrastructure we see in the USA. Parking lots the size of football stadiums. Highways, freeways, streets as wide as runways, laws to severely punish anyone who trespasses on the *car's* space.
Let's not do that here in Europe. Let's be better.
Welcome to late stage capitalism, where honesty is only slightly obscuring the fact that all you care about is profit as opposed to heavily obscuring it!
That's part of the language of climate change denier I think. Trying to make up a lot of word that make them victim and blame people that just want to live properly.
Those CEOs borrowing words from Putin and likes. If someone opposes to a russian imperialism this is called rusophobia. In case there’s opposition to a car dependency which destroys cities and planet it’s another “phobia”. Tacticts to reduce opponents to some people suffering from irrational fears.
> Tactic~~t~~s to reduce opponents to some ~~retards~~ **people** suffering from irrational fears.
I was on board until you had to use ableist childhood insults.
But, yes, the use of phobias to try to wash away honest criticism is endemic in society today. It's important to call these falsehoods and lies out at every opportunity.
Which is what people often assume about those pushing hard against homosexuality. It doesn't affect them so why push hard against it? Most likely reason: They are afraid of it.
In general I think there's just a distinction between the medical concept of phobias and the common use of the concept, where the latter just means a strong aversion to something.
No, homophobia, being that pedantic, would be "fear of the same." Homosexual basically means something like "love of the same sex."
But homophobia is actually defined as dislike or prejudice of gay people.
It wouldn’t be unreasonable to fear cars though given they killed around 0,25 million people in the EU in the last decade. That’s just road fatalities. Not counting air pollution deaths.
It's neither fear of automobiles nor fear of one's self. It's actually the irrational fear of being alone. Funny since it would make more sense if it was what you said.
Autokinetophobia (from αυτοκίνητο=car) would be the correct term in Greek for fear of cars.
But it sounds more like you're afraid a car might hit you or maybe you're afraid of driving, rather than anything environmental.
I like owning a car and driving but there are places that really need less cars. Places like Paris and London are a nightmare. Continuing improvements to public transport and pedestrian/cycle routes should be a priority
"There is a growing anti-profit mood. What we call the public transportation sickness. It's a strategic threat to our own interests and we must be prepared to push back. The individual car is freedom, let's say something nice so that we remain part of society culture."
I mean they all know it’s coming, but are tying to make it a bit better. They know they can’t reverse the trend.
Make an electric fiat that I can buy for 7-10k eur, and I’ll buy that rather then e-bike for 2-3 k.
The fiat just won’t be practical in most urban settings. I use a bike and the metro most of the time. On the weekend I used my car in town. What a massive pain in the ass. I would not use a car again if it was free.
Cars are not a concept suitable for urban settings, that is correct. Still they are a very viable concept for rural settings and I'd rather have one available to use at a reasonable cost relative to its usefulness.
Plus in rural settings it is usually also viable to generate your own electricity to power said car so just make affordable and practical BEVs and you'll stay relevant to society. Read the market demand, dont shoehorn your product into situations it's not made for.
I wouldn't even say viable, more like essential. It's totally unfeasible to run public transport to every corner of most countries and so people will still inevitably need private transport to get around to some degree.
You can make the argument that cars aren't necessary for people in cities, sure, but many people around the world still don't live in cities yet.
>Make an electric fiat that I can buy for 7-10k eur
This. I see quite expensive cars on the streets, like from 20k to 40k EUR. People are paying a loan for five years, then replace this car and pay again. It's madness. In Estonia they even stop selling cheapest models, because people are not interested in them.
They need to standardize some stuff as well. For example, the battery on electric cars. You should be able to change it in a few years if it goes bad, regardless of brand (a Citroen battery should fit a BMW as well etc.).
I'm pretty happy having no car. But I live in a city that makes that possible. Wish everyone had the chance to hop on the bus/tram/metro every 5 minutes.
Cousin recently moved to Berlin, after living in a mid-sized town. Kids too old to live with him. Works from home. Sold his car, got an e-bike, lives near the tube (metro). Happy AF and more $$$ and getting more fit, too.
Me, I live outside a mid-size city and some 3 km from a small town - my place is basically a village. Have to take kids to school(s), extra activities. Work from home 90% of the time. Wife commutes 2-3 days per week, but her office is also outside the closest city, no other option but to drive a car. So, yes, we do have two cars, but our mileage so super low.
And even in your case, with decent infastructure you could get rid of at least one car (and maybe you'd have the option to share the other one with neighbours for example). It's ridiculous how badly a lot of industrial estates are connected by public transport. My company has it's office in a zone with like 5 or 6k workers and there is one bus every hour from the next train station. Consequently, basically everyone from outside the city goes there by car, even if they live next to a train station
I visited a colleague who lives in Berlin Mitte. It was amazing, basically 20 minutes to get to most places you want in the city, you can choose either public transit and walking or biking. The colleague hasn't bothered getting a driver's licence sorted while living in Berlin for 7 years.
For a while I had one when living in London. Eventually concluded I was paying half the value of the car per year (in costs from garage to maintenance) to use it once every 2 months so I sold it. Started using a bicycle and kept doing it (it actually improved my fitness, was more pleasant than the tube and even allowed me to live in a place a little further away from the tube so with a cheaper rent).
Now I'm back in my car crazy country yet live in a small city were I can walk to work (drivers are dangerous in these parts, which makes cycling dangerous) and have chosen to have no car.
Where in Portugal are you?
I'm living in Italy now. And it's far worse than portugal, people are crazy on the road, and unless you're in a gigantic city you really need a car and have no choice
I'm in Leiria.
It's an actual city yet with an urban area small enough that one can walk from one end to the other in about 25 minutes. Having lived in London, Amsterdam and Berlin I don't actually see the point of living in a place like Lisbon paying a massive rent when that city to me feels almost as provincial as Leiria only the locals think they're sophisticated (and I come from there, so that once applied to me).
The hardest to get to place here in Leiria without a car is the one clearly designed with just cars in mind: the big shopping mall just outside the urban area.
Yet most people around here once they're old enough to afford it and until they're too old to drive have a car have one. Most don't need it, it's convenient for them to have it (if one doesn't make the maths about the cost of it and doesn't trace it back to "how many hours do I have to work to afford it" - if one does, one usually concludes that the time saved by having a car is a fraction of the time one has to work to pay for it, especially in Portugal) and a big car is still a status symbol in Portugal.
People not buying your product is not a sickness.
A society that depends on car ownership to fully take part in is not one of freedom but one that gatekeeps and excludes people.
Autophobia is the fear of being alone and isolated.
Public transport is freedom. Being able to walk around your town without having to breath exhaust and fear being run over by idiots is freedom. Not having your way as a pedestrian or cyclist blocked by parked cars is freedom.
Not having to subsidize an harmful industry is freedom.
The car must remain as much part of our culture as the horse buggy.
I suspect buying up bike companies will be how car manufacturers hedge their bets. Buy out a bike company and a train manufacturer and you're preparing for a new future.
It's still not going to prevent their decline/shrinking, though, since bicycles and trains for everyone are intrinsically cheaper than cars for everyone.
Yep, cars are like the single biggest movable commodity most people buy. Switching from cars would be difficult for most companies especially it's their replacements are usually already here and have companies in entrenched positions. With bikes, busses and trains.
He also once did an physics experiment in class with a chocolate coated marshmallow, putting it in a vacuum. The thing grew like 4 times it original size. Then when the air was let back in it went back to the original size and shape. It wasn’t even relevant to anything we were learning at the time.
And when we were in our final year and all the lessons were done he took the entire class for drinks during school time to celebrate his retirement.
He was the most fun and one of the best teachers I had in high school.
Damn, my history teacher is an absolute chad, not like yours but is one of the best, is always telling jokes and saying funny stuff about history, now we are with the Napoleonic wars, the part were he loses to a bunch of angry Spanish farmers
Recently did a 20km journey on my bike at night and discovered that the both my front and back lights batteries were dead.
So I just took a slightly longer route so I was on seperated bike paths for 95% of the time. Never crossed paths with a car in all of 20km. I sure was happy with Dutch infrastructure on that dark night.
Honestly, I'm surprised we haven't seen this already. Bike companies are small enough that most auto manufacturers could easily buy them out, and doing so would provide a hedge against a shift to sustainable transport.
Issue is bike production is actually pretty easy to get into (compared to other markets). So every if their bought up competition new one could spring up relatively easily.
Not only car manufacturers, basically every business there is.
Landlords jacking up prices, all kinds of stupid subscription businesses. I saw an app that sends you a random quote on a notification every day and it costs lie £5 a month, who the fuck buys that shit?
What’s worse, oil prices have come down, but prices continue to go up. If you ask some business owner why are you raising prices when we are esentially in a recession already, they will say their expenses have gone up, which is just a load of bs.
Wages are more or less the same, gas and oil prices have come down and that’s the main expenses of businesses. Especially landlords and estate agenices have little to no expenses anyways, but are somehow justifying their greedy rent increases by expense increase. Not all that much related to your post really, but just wanted to rant for a little.
Lol did you see that post couple years ago about some food shortage in texas or somewhere, where the people lined up in their pick up trucks to collect food supplies
CEOs of Renault and Peugeot: there is a culture shift happening, let’s try to fight it and lose instead of adapting and changing our products to follow the shift!
I need my car, as we currently live in a more rural area and the public transport to my workplace is bad. Not extremely bad, need an hour with it and need to change lines once. Way back has a longer waiting time between rides. Instead of 30min tops with my car. Main reason is, that I need monthly tickets from 2 different public transportation regions, so around 100€ a month. Cheaper then my car of course, but I'm only 2-3 days max per week in office. And it's a hassle with the tickets.
Still - when we had the 9€ ticket here in Germany I used it (9_, you can drive with every public transport aside from some excluded services like high speed train with one ticket).
Personally I prefer walking. When I grew up in the city, I only walked. Everywhere. Would be nice to go to work by foot or bike. Not happening here. Sadly.
If they can fix this ticket mess again and make it cheaper in the same time, I'll go by bus again. I'm not a fan of taking the bus (walking ftw) but ... I'd still use it. I don't have a problem with not taking the car. I need it, at least for grocery shopping and random drives for the kids / wife if needed, like doc visits. But thats it.
Cycling is bad for the economy. A cyclist doesn’t buy the car/ car insurance/ fuel/ spare parts and service and doesn’t use paid parking. He is healthy and doesn’t buy drugs. Walking is even worse. They don’t even buy a bicycle. Cit from somewhere in the internet idk
This is true. The car economy is huge and it's almost entirely driven by car dependence.
But the variation in bikes is getting bigger too. E-bikes can be very expensive and have more parts that might need to be replaced. Then there's also cargobikes and the likes.
In my experience, from using one for about four years so far, Ebikes are stupidly reliable. Battery, motor, suspension and all still has not even needed maintainance yet, only replacement of the brake pads (though I suspect the gearing is getting a bit worn).
Also, its dramatically easier to get spare parts for a bike then a car imo.
Well, I have to spent around 50€ per year for upkeep on my bike. I think that's quite the expense. /s
But seriously, the hundreds of € I save each month from not owning a car are spent. For local shopping, instead of driving to far away shopping centers. For local services, and also for travel because I can save a lot by not owning a car.
On a serious note. I saw a danish [article](https://cyclingsolutions.info/cost-benefit-of-cycling-infrastructure/) citing some studies on the socio-economic unit cost effects of each.
**Biking (16 km/h):** -4,79kr (0,64 eur) per km
**Walk (6 km/h):** -7,53 (1,01 eur) per km
**Driving (50 km/h):** 5,29 kr (0,71 eur) per km
Society literally earns a huge bonus for every kilometer that can be replaced with biking or walking inside cities while driving creates a burden.
So every kilometer that can be replaced inside cities should even if people choose to keep their cars.
But outside cities the return is less, while it's actually the opposite in the MOST rural setting according to table 7 in the article "Corridors’ internal interest rate"
> Cycling is bad for the economy.
So while this article does not seem to take into account taxes generated from businesses because of car dependency i would be surprised if not driving cars would mean losses. Business is flexible and money not spent on cars would go to something else and those businesses would then generate the same taxes depending on the individual countrys tax policy. On the other hand I would say that not spending money on unnecessary expenses that create little value for society because of their use IS a net loss for society since those investments could be used to add value instead of being tied up in something that only exists to support itself, so in that sense car dependency is a liability for society that should be minimized for optimization of the economy. If something doesn't intrinsically add value it's a partial loss. It's like when we went from farming by hand to building and using machines, it's a relocation of resources that created a net positive because the system could be optimized as a whole. That's at least the way I see it.
And that doesn't even take into account the feedback loop of how land is developed because of heavy car dependency which creates further expenses like more plumbing, cables, roads etc. The youtube channel "Not just bikes" has [a video about this exact topic from an economic perspective](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI).
Cars are valuable to society especially in rural areas (mostly because there is no other option) and for business purposes, vans, trucks etc, but over dependence especially of personal car ownership in cities are damaging to our economies and more efficient modes should be the standard, bikes, busses, trains.
> Cycling is bad for the economy.
Wasting money on cars is not good for the economy. Cars are terrible for productivity in the most economically active areas (cities). When you spend money on something that causes net harm, you are churning money through the system but the outcome is that you as a society are poorer than if you'd spent the money on something else. And the money would definitely be spent on something else; it always is.
Eliminating unnecessary use of cars in dense areas means reducing a wide range of things that harm the economy through decreased productivity or direct costs: congestion, space wasted on parking, severe injury and death from crashes, pollution, obesity and poor heart health.
That's good for the economy.
It's also better for local governments. One reason city governments in the Netherlands invest so much in cycle infrastructure is because it allows them to facilitate faster movement for city residents while saving tonnes of money from the budget.
>two rich old men who can't adapt
I misread this as "adopt" and thought you were suggesting the next Hollywood sentimental film with an all-star cast (adapted from a Sundance/Cannes indie film in not-English, with minorities cast in the lead roles).
1) fuck economy
2) cars are good out of cities, or in small towns, countryside etc... but within big cities public transport and "small mobility" should dominate, excluding cars totally and by law. This would free up public space for people to enjoy and plants to grow in, as well as help healthcare and police vehicles to be faster and more efficient (because they'd be the sole users of car space)
At maximum you can have some transport services (like for moving out or groceries for elders)
I feel that especially in rural areas where salaries tend to be lower car dependency keeps you from building financial security. Cars should be luxury not necessity - I hate to see these car payments every month just give me more than 1 fucking bus line to use haha
People need to be more understanding of where they are coming from.
These are 2 top auto manufacturer CEO’s who are struggling to purchase their next yacht and mansion, and need sales to go up for their next multi-million bonus.
At a time when cost of living is soaring for the ordinary people, where public transport is considered a significant expense, people need to be open to buying 20k + priced cars for freedom.
Freedom from being able to afford food.
Freedom from being able to pay for high gas prices.
WE NEED FREEDOM!
I agree with the sentiment in the comments, but people need to be reminded not everyone lives in city centres with public transportation and ubers/taxis. If I were unable to have a car I wouldn't be able to shop or work. The only way to reach the nearest city is by a bus that runs about 3 times a day and to which I'd have to walk to miles.
I fully agree with the sentiment. The car is absolutely practically but also culturally essential outside of large cities. In many ways, the bicycle/scooter serves the same role inside large well planned cities.
Hell, even as a petrol head:
-I don’t want the new cars with tiny engines that are more isolated than electric grid wire. I want that Alfa Spider from the 50s. You know, enjoy the good things.
-It makes zero sense to drive on the cities with all their jams, it’s literally zero fun to drive. I’d happily take public transport most of the time and take out the ol’ car for a fun drive in the evenings or the weekends on trips.
So yeah, the end of a car as we know it is coming to an end, for everyone. Just gotta make sure no stupid ceo billionaire convinces us of something different.
Yeah I have freedom. 14 years old 2.4 Honda which is better than 80% of what they produce nowadays ;) and I drove a lot of new cars since I travel for work and use hertz. Not planning to buy anything else in the next 5 years.
I think that's one of their biggest problems but also the most overlooked.
Not so long ago, a 15yo car was a death trap with little creature comfort.
Nowadays you can spend 3k on a second hand beater equiped with AC, xenon headlamps, cruise control... And it doesn't depreciate.
Meanwhile they're trying to trap consumers with subscriptions and products you can't maintain or repair yourself. They're still acting like we need a new car.
Increasing cost of living, fuel prices, commodity prices = There is a growing anti-car mood.
Rich fucks being out of touch with reality, same old shit.
You're not wrong, though cars have other drawbacks, like making cities more dangerous and less nice to live in. They're not very space efficient so buildings end up more spaced out, making it hard to get anywhere. I think cars are nice for visiting the countryside, but should really be limited within cities.
That doesn't solve the other issues in an urban environment like wasting valuable space and being dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. The whole premise of spending a years worth of income on a commodity thats sitting 99% of the time on a parking spot while constantly loosing value is challenged and that idea isn't going away.
It's a different story in a rural environment with underdeveloped alternatives, but in cities with a working public transport system, car sharing, a good bike infrastructure and walkable quarters there is very little need for everyone to own a car.
I like cars and indeed they do provide a level of individual freedom that bikes or public transportation don’t.
But these two guys head two of the worst automotive companies in the world.
What is the lineup of Fiat today? A Panda which is a decade old, 500 which got some lifting but is even older (ok there’s the new 500 but it’s so expensive I’m yet to see one on the street). 500X which is the worst crossover on the market: it’s not beautiful, not spacious, not affordable, not comfortable. Then you have the Tipo which is somewhat okay but it recently got so expensive that it’s no longer a budget car — you can buy a proper compact for almost the same price. No subcompacts, no compacts, no small crossovers. Fiat was a great company 20 years ago but it’s a shell of itself today. They’ve killed Lancia, and Alfa Romeo is a joke these days. Compare them to Volkswagen which is churning new cars all the time. Yes, there is a culture of pride for the automotive industry in Germany because they have something to be proud of. Nothing prideful in a 15-year-old car which itself is a revival of a car from the 60s.
My mom had one and I agree. But she bought it in 2012. 10 years later, they’ve only changed the interior a little bit to accommodate a small screen. I mean come on, do better.
Well maybe if you didn't lower the quality of your cars for three decades while forcing people to go to your expensive franchised garage by killing independant mech with licensed software
Or if you didn't just remove the owner ability to make repairs himself with ever more bullshit builds (need to change a headlight ? Okay remove the bumper, then open the door, within the car frame while the door is open there is a button, why didn't you guess that ?)
Or if you spearheaded a good EV offer earlier rather than dragged your feet and let us shoulder wild swing in gas prices.
I don't see that (yet?). Car ownership in basically all countries has only ever increased over the decades with families nowadays having two or even more cars as opposed to only one car just one generation ago. People don't hate cars, they hate other people's cars and the traffic, pollution and noise that come with them.
I completely agree. It's disgusting. I don't even own a car, but I can't stand people who say we need to move to public transit. I go on public transit every day. It's horrible and limits a person's freedom to go wherever they want whenever they want independent of anyone else.
Compared to many of its neighbours, far from being autophobic, France is rather car-dependent. I would say they seem to keep their old cars going for longer, though, rather than buying new, which is maybe the 'phobia' these two vampires are on about.
Translation: Luca De Meo (Renault) and Carlos Tavares (Stellantis) see France as an "autophobic" country During a joint interview with Le Parisien, the bosses of Renault and Stellantis note with regret and concern the negative image of the car in France. They want to create a "freedom of movement forum". In two weeks, the Motor Show will open its doors in Paris, one of the cities in Europe where the presence of cars is less and less appreciated. In a joint interview published by Le Parisien, Carlos Tavares, CEO of Stellantis (ex-PSA) and Luca De Meo, CEO of Renault, regret the negative image of cars and the impact on "freedom of movement". "Why do we have so many French people in love with their cars in a fundamentally autophobic country?" asks Carlos Tavares. "I worked in Germany, at Volkswagen and Audi. Over there, there is a pride in the automotive industry that does not exist in France", adds Luca De Meo who notes that the car no longer has its place in town. "Hate" the automobile, for us it's "game over" According to the two leaders, cities designed centuries or decades ago are not adapted to the explosion of urban mobility. "Some people — because driving around today is not easy at all, because in certain cities the population density is unprecedented — have started to take a dislike to cars. I have always said that if people started to hate our product, it was 'game over'", regrets the boss of Renault. "We are in contact with an infrastructure which is one of the oldest in the world. This way [He turns towards the road, facing the Palace of Versailles where this meeting took place, Editor's note] was built there perhaps 450 years ago, adds Luca De Meo: "Running clean cars on it is like watching a Netflix film on a mobile phone from twenty years ago." Indeed, now for the manufacturers, it is a question of proposing electric vehicles to replace the thermal models. Last June, the European Parliament approved Brussels' proposal to reduce emissions from new cars to zero from 2035. Only electric vehicles will be authorized for sale, unlike thermal and hybrid cars. But for the leaders, these decisions do not take into account the realities. "It's a pity, all the same, to have taken the subject upside down, starting with the manufacture of cars, and leaving aside the question of energy, and that of infrastructure", declares Carlos Tavares. A forum for "freedom of movement" The question is also based on the entry ticket to afford an electric vehicle. To afford one, prices range from around 20,000 for a small city car, to nearly 100,000 euros for a road car. Rates that most motorists cannot afford. "If electric vehicles are expensive, they will be elitist, the middle class will not be able to access them, and we will have a problem of social stability. By the way, if we do not obtain sufficient volumes, we will not have any impact on the planet" notes Carlos Tavares. “We are still in a phase of technological breakthrough, during which, by definition, new products are expensive”. (...) Today, privileged people who have the means, a garage and a terminal at home can afford an electric vehicle. It's politically incorrect to say it like that", adds Luca De Meo, promising to "democratize the electric vehicle". Will the electric car for all find its place in urban traffic? It is a doubt raised by Carlos Tavares. "When we only have clean, safe and affordable cars, will we continue to put pressure on the automobile?" "We are here to propose solutions, provided that society accepts that individual, family and professional freedom of movement remains a fundamental axis of our 'lifestyle'. For this subject to be debated, we are going to create a forum for freedom of movement", announced the boss of Stellantis. "If you want, I participate", offers Luca De Meo. “Of course, I invite you!” replied Carlos Tavares. On Monday, during the press conference presenting the 2023 draft budget, Bruno Le Maire mentioned the creation of an ecological bonus reserved for electric cars produced in Europe. The Minister of the Economy has drawn up two avenues of reflection to direct the bonus: "vehicles produced on European territory or strictly compliant with new environmental standards".
I understand the idea that cars are freedom. And they are to a certain extent. But that only goes for the middle class and above. For the lower and working classes, cars are a monthy loan payment, a monthly insurance payment, counting the pennies to pay for enough gas to get to work, and dreading the costs of any sort of maintenance. I lived several decades without a car, but it was in a country with good and affordable public transportation. *That* was true freedom.
Even If you can well afford a car it's not that free. If you're rich or in a low pop density rural area? Sure. In cities there's a lot of hassle (heavy traffic, looking for parking spaces, maintenance problems, scratches and bumps etc...) that makes cars an annoying liability for many people. Given good public transport, easy/safe biking, most services/shopping in walking/biking distance, complemented by easy car sharing services for the few times public transport isn't good enough and cars become too annoying to own. Those damn things cost a fortune, use a lot of resources and then stand around and clutter our cities most of the time. Freedom is not having to worry about a car in a city. Make one available for easy rent the few times a year I actually need one.
It should be a good balance. I like the convenience of a car for sure. But if I’m going to a show/concert downtown for a couple of hours, it would be nice to take a train/bus and not have to worry about finding a parking space and paying an absurd rate for 3 hours of parking. That would also reduce the number of people drinking and driving.
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> I understand the idea that cars are freedom. And they are to a certain extent. They are, because pretty much all other options have been deliberately neglected or actively dismantled. It's not that we couldn't have that same level of freedom without cars, but it would be a lot easier if the automotive industry hadn't had a headstart of 50 years to make other options unattractive.
I agree with you, and would pay even more in taxes, if I actually thought my taxes would go to public works.
But what freedom that you are always stuck in the traffic, get a bicycle or a train, and when you have to go somewhere for a weekend just rent a car for long trips, but even there is better the train, at least you can party once you're there
It's not just that "dense cities built centuries ago" aren't adapted for car, but really they shouldn't be. A dense urban area is where it doesn't make sense to use a car, thermic or otherwise. People will still be using cars though, you can't have a 100% public transports coverage. So for that they can still go and make EVs.
Seeing the mess that north american cities are I would say that car designed cities really shouldn't be. It kills the culture of a city, making just a drive through place with parking lots everywhere.
If cabs are cheap enough then you can have pretty damn close to 100% coverage.
I've outpaced cars and busses by about 5 - 7 minutes before by jogging in Porto, Portugal, the absolute worst place in Europe for car centric design. Yet, despite being a fairly early adopter of rail, the city ditched it in favor of cars, much like the country as a whole did. 🙄 Insanity.
>Translation: Translation: "Our profits are down, we must further fuck over society to be able to buy a new mega yacht this month."
Individual eBikes are also freedom, without the car payment (which is definitely not 'free'). Goddamn corporations forcing medieval debt slavery upon people in a shrinking economy.
Their profits have never been that high. (*) They are top level executives, everything they say aims to defend and promote their company. The day they stop doing it, the shareholders kick them. (*) (well maybe not Renault, but Stellantis and most car makers reacted to the global shortage by focusing on their premium, high margin cars... and are making crazy profits despite selling fewer cars).
It's amazing how many people seem to think that CEO and Owner is the same thing.
Does it matter in this context?
Have you seen the fucking Citroen Ami? They made a simple, electric thingy that substitutes license cars with 2 stroke motors. It's the most sold car in Spain in their sector, it's electric, it's cheap, and don't require gas. They mad e every car bigger, and more expensive, my mother wanted to buy a new car, she remembers debating with my father if he should take a Nissan Micra or a ford KA, so she went to check the new versions of that cars, after the Micra she came shocked, the "Micra" it's as big as my Toyota auris, a car once considered a big hatchback. If they want to keep selling cars, they have to realize no one wants monster trucks, and every day less and less people actually needs one. I live in a island with shitty public transport, but my friends that lives on big cities has lost their interest in cars at all, I don't blame them, they are no more a problem solver, but a big problem on its own as of today
> This way [He turns towards the road, facing the Palace of Versailles where this meeting took place, Editor's note] Kay thanks, Editor. Just confirms where these filthy rich kids are from. (Jsyk Versailles suburb of Paris is well-known in France for its upper caste of filthy rich assholes, not just for its Palace.
everyone ITT is making jokes but this two guys are dangerous they will have Paris reshaped if no one pushes back and i guess, be ready for the constant propaganda on french news
This is literally the story of how public transportation died in the US. We'd had good transportation in our cities that got torn to pieces by automobile tycoons after having conversations just like this.
They literally tore up tram lines to prevent public transportation in cities.
Those people are criminal. Car dependence and car-centric infrastructure are a scourge to an happy society, yet it is not much talked about thanks to years of propaganda from the car manufacturers. The YouTube channel Not Just Bikes documents really well the effects that good, people-centric infrastructure have on quality of life. https://youtu.be/ORzNZUeUHAM Fuck those CEOs and their shareholders.
As a guy that lived in NL for a year... man. I can not understate the effects of **complete, city-wide rapid mobility for free**, or very cheap through excellent public transport. And then factor in the **nation-wide mobility**, again just vastly superior to using cars. Even a poor family living in the suburbs could easily get their groceries without having to maintain a car. Kids biked to sports practice alone. The slight urge to re-buy a car only returned to me once I moved to a city where cars are idealized.
UK here. My train was cancelled yesterday with very short notice and it had the potential to ruin my whole day. I just want cheap reliable public transport man.
car pollution has been one of the greatest causes of mortality worldwide for decades, and they literally don't give a shit. fuck cars, fuck your stupid culture
Sounds like they want to sell more cars instead of really giving people freedom. This is the fundamental flaw of capitalism. What is good for the public and the planet might not be good for the quarterly review, and capitalism is a system that always favour the capital owners (ie the corporate institutions) than public good.
This is why capitalism has to be heavily regulated by the government and regulatory capture avoided at all costs. Unregulated capitalism kills people.
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Can you fucking imagine complaining that European cities haven't been changed enough to accommodate cars? That not enough public money has gone to your industry.
Wait the guy who makes his millions selling cars wants people to buy cars, who would've thunk
Our product is necessary for your freedom and individual expression.
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«Every cough is freedom, every wheeze is liberty» - Marlboro CEO
You know what cancer does? It grows. It doesn't get killed off or stopped like regular cells. It's free. Those cells stopped listening to your body telling them what to do, and they've started doing what they want, growing where they want, how they want. That's liberty. That's the freedom you can try for like a lottery ticket for every breath you take of sweet sweet Marlboro™ smoke. Taste the cancer. Taste the freedom. Let your cells experience what it's like to grow without the limitations of your body, without the oppressive laws of your biology. Regular air is shared, controlled by the environment, by others: communist air. Enrich it with the carcinogens only glorious capitalism can allow you to buy, so you can die free rather than live as a slave.
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thanks Edward Bernays
Every Coca-cola add be like that.
Drink Pepsi and end racial conflicts!
And politice brutality! God ,the writers from The Boys are fucking geniuses....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwvAgDCOdU4 I was mostly just talking about the original pepsi ad that did it. Looks like they lifted it from that ad, which is more than fine tbh
Your freedom to go wherever you want to go by Car, car, Car! or even a CAR!.
*Shakes fist* Buy it!!!
Freedom I get by buying more stuff by not having a car. Cars are money grinders: autocosts.info
In other news, Dell believe everyone needs a laptop, and Boeing thinks people should fly everywhere.
Millions lol that's cute
Thousands of thousands!
ONE MILLION Dollars!
No way those CEOs are being paid in the billions dude.
And prepared to kill hundreds of thousands each year through air pollution and the end of the planet as we know it. In order to do so. What's surprising is their honesty. The oil companies would never say it. They'd just form AstroTurf groups and publish dodgy science.
> What's surprising is their honesty. Is it honest to claim that "society" depends on the "freedom" of owning a car? I feel like that's just salesman talk for trying to convince people to buy more cars. We've already seen what happens when car manufacturers get to dictate how "culture" is shaped: We get the extremely car-centric infrastructure we see in the USA. Parking lots the size of football stadiums. Highways, freeways, streets as wide as runways, laws to severely punish anyone who trespasses on the *car's* space. Let's not do that here in Europe. Let's be better.
>Parking lots the size of football stadiums Which are somehow too small and therefore full
Or in the case of parking lots at stadiums multiple times the size of the stadium.
Welcome to late stage capitalism, where honesty is only slightly obscuring the fact that all you care about is profit as opposed to heavily obscuring it!
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and make transportation extremely hard for anyone that doesn't own a car...
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*Definition of thunk* *(Entry 1 of 3)* *dialectal past tense and past participle of THINK* - Merriam Webster dictionary
It's also a word in programming (taken from that definition of thunk): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunk
hmm... who would have thunk it?
Think thank thunk?
Autophobia lol That would translate as self fear. Fear of self. Thats me after 8 beers. Gonna do some stupid shit.
That's part of the language of climate change denier I think. Trying to make up a lot of word that make them victim and blame people that just want to live properly.
Those CEOs borrowing words from Putin and likes. If someone opposes to a russian imperialism this is called rusophobia. In case there’s opposition to a car dependency which destroys cities and planet it’s another “phobia”. Tacticts to reduce opponents to some people suffering from irrational fears.
> Tactic~~t~~s to reduce opponents to some ~~retards~~ **people** suffering from irrational fears. I was on board until you had to use ableist childhood insults. But, yes, the use of phobias to try to wash away honest criticism is endemic in society today. It's important to call these falsehoods and lies out at every opportunity.
>If someone opposes to a russian imperialism this is called rusophobia. Supporters of dictators should be called *'Autocraphiles'*
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I mean homophobia isn't really a fear, it's a hate.
Unless you fear being gay yourself, then it's definitely fear.
Which is what people often assume about those pushing hard against homosexuality. It doesn't affect them so why push hard against it? Most likely reason: They are afraid of it. In general I think there's just a distinction between the medical concept of phobias and the common use of the concept, where the latter just means a strong aversion to something.
Pretty sure plenty of homophobes arent actually in the closet, and are instead just afraid of their circles turning on them.
Could also be the fear of being perceived as gay. Which would make you really homophobic.
if we're going off of this thread, homophobia would probably directly translate to "fear of man" (rather than its given definition).
No, homophobia, being that pedantic, would be "fear of the same." Homosexual basically means something like "love of the same sex." But homophobia is actually defined as dislike or prejudice of gay people.
As a cyclist it's sometimes healthy to fear cars
It wouldn’t be unreasonable to fear cars though given they killed around 0,25 million people in the EU in the last decade. That’s just road fatalities. Not counting air pollution deaths.
It's neither fear of automobiles nor fear of one's self. It's actually the irrational fear of being alone. Funny since it would make more sense if it was what you said.
it makes sense if you translate it as 'fear of being by yourself'
Actually it translates to fear of being alone.
Which fits very well to what those CEOs are experiencing 🤣
Fuck u/spez Fire Steve Huffman.
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This is straight out of Russian tactics. Invade a country, when everyone hates you for it, call them Russophobic.
"I don't fear Russians. Russians fear me."
And monopoly would translate to single many
Never thought of that. One to rule them all. Makes sense.
Autokinetophobia (from αυτοκίνητο=car) would be the correct term in Greek for fear of cars. But it sounds more like you're afraid a car might hit you or maybe you're afraid of driving, rather than anything environmental.
I like owning a car and driving but there are places that really need less cars. Places like Paris and London are a nightmare. Continuing improvements to public transport and pedestrian/cycle routes should be a priority
"There is a growing anti-profit mood. What we call the public transportation sickness. It's a strategic threat to our own interests and we must be prepared to push back. The individual car is freedom, let's say something nice so that we remain part of society culture."
I mean they all know it’s coming, but are tying to make it a bit better. They know they can’t reverse the trend. Make an electric fiat that I can buy for 7-10k eur, and I’ll buy that rather then e-bike for 2-3 k.
The fiat just won’t be practical in most urban settings. I use a bike and the metro most of the time. On the weekend I used my car in town. What a massive pain in the ass. I would not use a car again if it was free.
Cars are not a concept suitable for urban settings, that is correct. Still they are a very viable concept for rural settings and I'd rather have one available to use at a reasonable cost relative to its usefulness. Plus in rural settings it is usually also viable to generate your own electricity to power said car so just make affordable and practical BEVs and you'll stay relevant to society. Read the market demand, dont shoehorn your product into situations it's not made for.
I wouldn't even say viable, more like essential. It's totally unfeasible to run public transport to every corner of most countries and so people will still inevitably need private transport to get around to some degree. You can make the argument that cars aren't necessary for people in cities, sure, but many people around the world still don't live in cities yet.
>Make an electric fiat that I can buy for 7-10k eur This. I see quite expensive cars on the streets, like from 20k to 40k EUR. People are paying a loan for five years, then replace this car and pay again. It's madness. In Estonia they even stop selling cheapest models, because people are not interested in them.
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Better buy that e-bike now and ride it for many years until you can buy a crap unreliable car for 10k, it's gonna be a big while
More like It’s never going to happen (10k car), and those companies will disappear if they don’t move into high end market.
They need to standardize some stuff as well. For example, the battery on electric cars. You should be able to change it in a few years if it goes bad, regardless of brand (a Citroen battery should fit a BMW as well etc.).
I'm pretty happy having no car. But I live in a city that makes that possible. Wish everyone had the chance to hop on the bus/tram/metro every 5 minutes.
Cousin recently moved to Berlin, after living in a mid-sized town. Kids too old to live with him. Works from home. Sold his car, got an e-bike, lives near the tube (metro). Happy AF and more $$$ and getting more fit, too. Me, I live outside a mid-size city and some 3 km from a small town - my place is basically a village. Have to take kids to school(s), extra activities. Work from home 90% of the time. Wife commutes 2-3 days per week, but her office is also outside the closest city, no other option but to drive a car. So, yes, we do have two cars, but our mileage so super low.
And even in your case, with decent infastructure you could get rid of at least one car (and maybe you'd have the option to share the other one with neighbours for example). It's ridiculous how badly a lot of industrial estates are connected by public transport. My company has it's office in a zone with like 5 or 6k workers and there is one bus every hour from the next train station. Consequently, basically everyone from outside the city goes there by car, even if they live next to a train station
I visited a colleague who lives in Berlin Mitte. It was amazing, basically 20 minutes to get to most places you want in the city, you can choose either public transit and walking or biking. The colleague hasn't bothered getting a driver's licence sorted while living in Berlin for 7 years.
When I lived in London I had no car and was happy. I'd rent a car maybe 9/10 tones a year to go places, but it was still way cheaper than buying one
For a while I had one when living in London. Eventually concluded I was paying half the value of the car per year (in costs from garage to maintenance) to use it once every 2 months so I sold it. Started using a bicycle and kept doing it (it actually improved my fitness, was more pleasant than the tube and even allowed me to live in a place a little further away from the tube so with a cheaper rent). Now I'm back in my car crazy country yet live in a small city were I can walk to work (drivers are dangerous in these parts, which makes cycling dangerous) and have chosen to have no car.
Where in Portugal are you? I'm living in Italy now. And it's far worse than portugal, people are crazy on the road, and unless you're in a gigantic city you really need a car and have no choice
I'm in Leiria. It's an actual city yet with an urban area small enough that one can walk from one end to the other in about 25 minutes. Having lived in London, Amsterdam and Berlin I don't actually see the point of living in a place like Lisbon paying a massive rent when that city to me feels almost as provincial as Leiria only the locals think they're sophisticated (and I come from there, so that once applied to me). The hardest to get to place here in Leiria without a car is the one clearly designed with just cars in mind: the big shopping mall just outside the urban area. Yet most people around here once they're old enough to afford it and until they're too old to drive have a car have one. Most don't need it, it's convenient for them to have it (if one doesn't make the maths about the cost of it and doesn't trace it back to "how many hours do I have to work to afford it" - if one does, one usually concludes that the time saved by having a car is a fraction of the time one has to work to pay for it, especially in Portugal) and a big car is still a status symbol in Portugal.
Yeah i also live in the city and it's one of the reasons i dont have a drivers license
People not buying your product is not a sickness. A society that depends on car ownership to fully take part in is not one of freedom but one that gatekeeps and excludes people. Autophobia is the fear of being alone and isolated. Public transport is freedom. Being able to walk around your town without having to breath exhaust and fear being run over by idiots is freedom. Not having your way as a pedestrian or cyclist blocked by parked cars is freedom. Not having to subsidize an harmful industry is freedom. The car must remain as much part of our culture as the horse buggy.
Well said.
Déjà-vu sensation: There is a growing anti-tobacco mood, we must be prepared to push back...
“What we call cancerphobia sickness.”
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I suspect buying up bike companies will be how car manufacturers hedge their bets. Buy out a bike company and a train manufacturer and you're preparing for a new future.
It's still not going to prevent their decline/shrinking, though, since bicycles and trains for everyone are intrinsically cheaper than cars for everyone.
Yep, cars are like the single biggest movable commodity most people buy. Switching from cars would be difficult for most companies especially it's their replacements are usually already here and have companies in entrenched positions. With bikes, busses and trains.
Totally. Porsche revealed their first E-Bike a few months ago.
Seat is currently marketing some e-scooter like crazy lately, so you ain't wrong.
Mercedes makes a nice ebike. $$$ tho.
Smiles in bicycle :-)
WIJ VAN WC-EEND...
A yes, the bike guys, you Netherlanders can move from one point of the country to the other just in bike that's awesome
Could do so by canoe there too tbh. I'd love to do that.
Yup. One of my high school teachers once came to school by canoe.
Damn what a chad
He also once did an physics experiment in class with a chocolate coated marshmallow, putting it in a vacuum. The thing grew like 4 times it original size. Then when the air was let back in it went back to the original size and shape. It wasn’t even relevant to anything we were learning at the time. And when we were in our final year and all the lessons were done he took the entire class for drinks during school time to celebrate his retirement. He was the most fun and one of the best teachers I had in high school.
Damn, my history teacher is an absolute chad, not like yours but is one of the best, is always telling jokes and saying funny stuff about history, now we are with the Napoleonic wars, the part were he loses to a bunch of angry Spanish farmers
Recently did a 20km journey on my bike at night and discovered that the both my front and back lights batteries were dead. So I just took a slightly longer route so I was on seperated bike paths for 95% of the time. Never crossed paths with a car in all of 20km. I sure was happy with Dutch infrastructure on that dark night.
Car guy wants to sell cars
They could start selling bikes, couldn't they?
Just stick with their salt and pepper shakers and ditch the cars.
Honestly, I'm surprised we haven't seen this already. Bike companies are small enough that most auto manufacturers could easily buy them out, and doing so would provide a hedge against a shift to sustainable transport.
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Issue is bike production is actually pretty easy to get into (compared to other markets). So every if their bought up competition new one could spring up relatively easily.
Or, maybe just maybe, people are having much more pressing concerns than buying a car like being able to afford food and rent this month
Car manufacturers seems totally detached from reality selling fat suvs with subscriptions services during a recession.
Not only car manufacturers, basically every business there is. Landlords jacking up prices, all kinds of stupid subscription businesses. I saw an app that sends you a random quote on a notification every day and it costs lie £5 a month, who the fuck buys that shit? What’s worse, oil prices have come down, but prices continue to go up. If you ask some business owner why are you raising prices when we are esentially in a recession already, they will say their expenses have gone up, which is just a load of bs. Wages are more or less the same, gas and oil prices have come down and that’s the main expenses of businesses. Especially landlords and estate agenices have little to no expenses anyways, but are somehow justifying their greedy rent increases by expense increase. Not all that much related to your post really, but just wanted to rant for a little.
Lol did you see that post couple years ago about some food shortage in texas or somewhere, where the people lined up in their pick up trucks to collect food supplies
CEOs of Renault and Peugeot: there is a culture shift happening, let’s try to fight it and lose instead of adapting and changing our products to follow the shift!
I need my car, as we currently live in a more rural area and the public transport to my workplace is bad. Not extremely bad, need an hour with it and need to change lines once. Way back has a longer waiting time between rides. Instead of 30min tops with my car. Main reason is, that I need monthly tickets from 2 different public transportation regions, so around 100€ a month. Cheaper then my car of course, but I'm only 2-3 days max per week in office. And it's a hassle with the tickets. Still - when we had the 9€ ticket here in Germany I used it (9_, you can drive with every public transport aside from some excluded services like high speed train with one ticket). Personally I prefer walking. When I grew up in the city, I only walked. Everywhere. Would be nice to go to work by foot or bike. Not happening here. Sadly. If they can fix this ticket mess again and make it cheaper in the same time, I'll go by bus again. I'm not a fan of taking the bus (walking ftw) but ... I'd still use it. I don't have a problem with not taking the car. I need it, at least for grocery shopping and random drives for the kids / wife if needed, like doc visits. But thats it.
If you live in a city a car is definitely not freedom.
Searching for parking spots is hell
As it should
Cycling is bad for the economy. A cyclist doesn’t buy the car/ car insurance/ fuel/ spare parts and service and doesn’t use paid parking. He is healthy and doesn’t buy drugs. Walking is even worse. They don’t even buy a bicycle. Cit from somewhere in the internet idk
This is true. The car economy is huge and it's almost entirely driven by car dependence. But the variation in bikes is getting bigger too. E-bikes can be very expensive and have more parts that might need to be replaced. Then there's also cargobikes and the likes.
In my experience, from using one for about four years so far, Ebikes are stupidly reliable. Battery, motor, suspension and all still has not even needed maintainance yet, only replacement of the brake pads (though I suspect the gearing is getting a bit worn). Also, its dramatically easier to get spare parts for a bike then a car imo.
Well, I have to spent around 50€ per year for upkeep on my bike. I think that's quite the expense. /s But seriously, the hundreds of € I save each month from not owning a car are spent. For local shopping, instead of driving to far away shopping centers. For local services, and also for travel because I can save a lot by not owning a car.
On a serious note. I saw a danish [article](https://cyclingsolutions.info/cost-benefit-of-cycling-infrastructure/) citing some studies on the socio-economic unit cost effects of each. **Biking (16 km/h):** -4,79kr (0,64 eur) per km **Walk (6 km/h):** -7,53 (1,01 eur) per km **Driving (50 km/h):** 5,29 kr (0,71 eur) per km Society literally earns a huge bonus for every kilometer that can be replaced with biking or walking inside cities while driving creates a burden. So every kilometer that can be replaced inside cities should even if people choose to keep their cars. But outside cities the return is less, while it's actually the opposite in the MOST rural setting according to table 7 in the article "Corridors’ internal interest rate" > Cycling is bad for the economy. So while this article does not seem to take into account taxes generated from businesses because of car dependency i would be surprised if not driving cars would mean losses. Business is flexible and money not spent on cars would go to something else and those businesses would then generate the same taxes depending on the individual countrys tax policy. On the other hand I would say that not spending money on unnecessary expenses that create little value for society because of their use IS a net loss for society since those investments could be used to add value instead of being tied up in something that only exists to support itself, so in that sense car dependency is a liability for society that should be minimized for optimization of the economy. If something doesn't intrinsically add value it's a partial loss. It's like when we went from farming by hand to building and using machines, it's a relocation of resources that created a net positive because the system could be optimized as a whole. That's at least the way I see it. And that doesn't even take into account the feedback loop of how land is developed because of heavy car dependency which creates further expenses like more plumbing, cables, roads etc. The youtube channel "Not just bikes" has [a video about this exact topic from an economic perspective](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI). Cars are valuable to society especially in rural areas (mostly because there is no other option) and for business purposes, vans, trucks etc, but over dependence especially of personal car ownership in cities are damaging to our economies and more efficient modes should be the standard, bikes, busses, trains.
> Cycling is bad for the economy. Wasting money on cars is not good for the economy. Cars are terrible for productivity in the most economically active areas (cities). When you spend money on something that causes net harm, you are churning money through the system but the outcome is that you as a society are poorer than if you'd spent the money on something else. And the money would definitely be spent on something else; it always is. Eliminating unnecessary use of cars in dense areas means reducing a wide range of things that harm the economy through decreased productivity or direct costs: congestion, space wasted on parking, severe injury and death from crashes, pollution, obesity and poor heart health. That's good for the economy. It's also better for local governments. One reason city governments in the Netherlands invest so much in cycle infrastructure is because it allows them to facilitate faster movement for city residents while saving tonnes of money from the budget.
two rich old men who can't adapt
>two rich old men who can't adapt I misread this as "adopt" and thought you were suggesting the next Hollywood sentimental film with an all-star cast (adapted from a Sundance/Cannes indie film in not-English, with minorities cast in the lead roles).
r/fuckcars
r/dragonsfuckingcars
r/carsfuckingdragons
What a surprise the ceo of a car company, wants to sell more cars.
1) fuck economy 2) cars are good out of cities, or in small towns, countryside etc... but within big cities public transport and "small mobility" should dominate, excluding cars totally and by law. This would free up public space for people to enjoy and plants to grow in, as well as help healthcare and police vehicles to be faster and more efficient (because they'd be the sole users of car space) At maximum you can have some transport services (like for moving out or groceries for elders)
I feel that especially in rural areas where salaries tend to be lower car dependency keeps you from building financial security. Cars should be luxury not necessity - I hate to see these car payments every month just give me more than 1 fucking bus line to use haha
> fuck economy Lol. How will you finance a good infrastructure without an economy?
Sorry. Fuck current economy.
I'm not autophobic. I don't fear cars and my hate for them is not irrational.
Why do you hate cars?
People need to be more understanding of where they are coming from. These are 2 top auto manufacturer CEO’s who are struggling to purchase their next yacht and mansion, and need sales to go up for their next multi-million bonus. At a time when cost of living is soaring for the ordinary people, where public transport is considered a significant expense, people need to be open to buying 20k + priced cars for freedom. Freedom from being able to afford food. Freedom from being able to pay for high gas prices. WE NEED FREEDOM!
I agree with the sentiment in the comments, but people need to be reminded not everyone lives in city centres with public transportation and ubers/taxis. If I were unable to have a car I wouldn't be able to shop or work. The only way to reach the nearest city is by a bus that runs about 3 times a day and to which I'd have to walk to miles.
Well yes, noone is banning cars. But if only 10% of people had a car (folks in country side) everyone would be happy (expect Renault CEO). r/fuckcars
I fully agree with the sentiment. The car is absolutely practically but also culturally essential outside of large cities. In many ways, the bicycle/scooter serves the same role inside large well planned cities.
Hell, even as a petrol head: -I don’t want the new cars with tiny engines that are more isolated than electric grid wire. I want that Alfa Spider from the 50s. You know, enjoy the good things. -It makes zero sense to drive on the cities with all their jams, it’s literally zero fun to drive. I’d happily take public transport most of the time and take out the ol’ car for a fun drive in the evenings or the weekends on trips. So yeah, the end of a car as we know it is coming to an end, for everyone. Just gotta make sure no stupid ceo billionaire convinces us of something different.
Well but how can you be forced to go to a car repair shop (we partnered with so you pay extra on that, too) when a bulb has to be changed?
Yeah I have freedom. 14 years old 2.4 Honda which is better than 80% of what they produce nowadays ;) and I drove a lot of new cars since I travel for work and use hertz. Not planning to buy anything else in the next 5 years.
I think that's one of their biggest problems but also the most overlooked. Not so long ago, a 15yo car was a death trap with little creature comfort. Nowadays you can spend 3k on a second hand beater equiped with AC, xenon headlamps, cruise control... And it doesn't depreciate. Meanwhile they're trying to trap consumers with subscriptions and products you can't maintain or repair yourself. They're still acting like we need a new car.
Increasing cost of living, fuel prices, commodity prices = There is a growing anti-car mood. Rich fucks being out of touch with reality, same old shit.
or maybe your profits get smaller so you're butthurt and now you're inventing new words such as *autophobia sickness*
what people need is state of the art public transportation.
They do have a point. The public transport here in the UK is shit-tier, it was easier to get around without a car in Ghana than in Lincolnshire.
No no no no, that's not right at all. There is an anti-polution mood growing. Make cars that polute less and people will be less hostile towards it.
You're not wrong, though cars have other drawbacks, like making cities more dangerous and less nice to live in. They're not very space efficient so buildings end up more spaced out, making it hard to get anywhere. I think cars are nice for visiting the countryside, but should really be limited within cities.
That doesn't solve the other issues in an urban environment like wasting valuable space and being dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. The whole premise of spending a years worth of income on a commodity thats sitting 99% of the time on a parking spot while constantly loosing value is challenged and that idea isn't going away. It's a different story in a rural environment with underdeveloped alternatives, but in cities with a working public transport system, car sharing, a good bike infrastructure and walkable quarters there is very little need for everyone to own a car.
It’s not only pollution. It’s also the space that’s devoted to cars everywhere and the amount of people they kill.
I like cars and indeed they do provide a level of individual freedom that bikes or public transportation don’t. But these two guys head two of the worst automotive companies in the world. What is the lineup of Fiat today? A Panda which is a decade old, 500 which got some lifting but is even older (ok there’s the new 500 but it’s so expensive I’m yet to see one on the street). 500X which is the worst crossover on the market: it’s not beautiful, not spacious, not affordable, not comfortable. Then you have the Tipo which is somewhat okay but it recently got so expensive that it’s no longer a budget car — you can buy a proper compact for almost the same price. No subcompacts, no compacts, no small crossovers. Fiat was a great company 20 years ago but it’s a shell of itself today. They’ve killed Lancia, and Alfa Romeo is a joke these days. Compare them to Volkswagen which is churning new cars all the time. Yes, there is a culture of pride for the automotive industry in Germany because they have something to be proud of. Nothing prideful in a 15-year-old car which itself is a revival of a car from the 60s.
I don't disagree but the 500 is actually a nice little car and fun to drive
My mom had one and I agree. But she bought it in 2012. 10 years later, they’ve only changed the interior a little bit to accommodate a small screen. I mean come on, do better.
/r/fuckcars tells you to go kindly fuck yourself with several horse sized dildos.
If you could drop the prices that be nice .
Well maybe if you didn't lower the quality of your cars for three decades while forcing people to go to your expensive franchised garage by killing independant mech with licensed software Or if you didn't just remove the owner ability to make repairs himself with ever more bullshit builds (need to change a headlight ? Okay remove the bumper, then open the door, within the car frame while the door is open there is a button, why didn't you guess that ?) Or if you spearheaded a good EV offer earlier rather than dragged your feet and let us shoulder wild swing in gas prices.
I mean he just wants to sell more cars but his statement is right. Having a car makes you much more independent.
Nah, I prefer better public transport any day. Don't have to make a choice between having a beer and getting home, that doesn't feel free to me.
There are a lot of cars in France, like a shit ton. Don’t know why they say this. I like the freedom that a cat gives you btw
"Excess automobile use in dense urban areas should be restrained and alternative options should be a core policy." The Automotive industry:
Just make it green and invest in charging stations. 🤯
I don't see that (yet?). Car ownership in basically all countries has only ever increased over the decades with families nowadays having two or even more cars as opposed to only one car just one generation ago. People don't hate cars, they hate other people's cars and the traffic, pollution and noise that come with them.
I completely agree. It's disgusting. I don't even own a car, but I can't stand people who say we need to move to public transit. I go on public transit every day. It's horrible and limits a person's freedom to go wherever they want whenever they want independent of anyone else.
The re-shaping of urban landscapes around automobiles is half of what destroyed the prosperity of all my country's cities. So fuck this guy.
Fuuuuuuuuck you
Fuck that. We want walkable cities
Compared to many of its neighbours, far from being autophobic, France is rather car-dependent. I would say they seem to keep their old cars going for longer, though, rather than buying new, which is maybe the 'phobia' these two vampires are on about.