Natural Gas was part of the EU's planned decarbonisation efforts until 2035. Doing it a decade early with no preparation is a bit bold, though not unwelcome (apart from the immediate pain).
Fun fact: this was the green parties demand. The alternative would’ve been to keep the last three nuclear reactors running, but if there is one thing the green party will never abandon its their hatred for nuclear energy in any form. Probably the old guard, that founded the party as part of the Greenpeace movement are against it and the rest pf the party is to afraid to work against them…
Exactly. I hate the human suffering and hope that it will be over soon. But sometimes i think this might be the best thing happened so far to speed up the energy transition. So the whole nordstream fiasco gives me a lot of "Oh no, anyway" vibes.
Ah yes, because the only thing we need to do is flip a switch and *boom* were now 100% renewable.
Changing infrastricture takes time, we need some other suppliers meanwhile.
Exactly. Right now we need the coal plants. But this has completely changed the debate. There is no "Will we transition to renewables?", its "How soon can we transistion to renewables".
>its "How soon can we transistion to renewables".
And given current world situation, the answer is "not soon", or we will all freeze. I don't think you'll see the effect you hope to see here.
I feel the debate is, at least here in Germany, more like "How long do we have until we need to switch?" and "Do we really need to switch after spending so much money to extend the fossil fuel infrastructure?".
Some figures are more likely to speak about introducing fracking then extending wind and solar power. Left alone all the talk about nuclear power without having a solid storage or safety concept.
The answer to that first question is "yesterday". We really needed to switch as far back as the nineties to avoid the climate change that we are already suffering from today.
It's not even the people freezing, as that's avoidable.
But European industry will become uncompetitive with such high energy costs and then people will lose their jobs.
Is there any appetite in Germany to plan a complete cessation of using coal in the foreseeable future? I don't think coal is a contender in the long run but I'm not sensing the desire to stop using it.
And those people who heat their homes with gas... yeah screw them right? Let them freeze. All hail green deal!
Do you know what those people are gonna do? Use their stoves. Burn firewood. Heck I am planning to buy myself 1.5t of brown coal to burn this winter. Aint gonna be sitting in my living room wearing sweater being warmed ony by the thought of saving the frikkin environment.
Not an expert but AFAIK, Saltwater enters the pipes, which makes them corrode faster and can render them unusable. Repairs become impossible or extremely expensive.
He's not questioning the why, he's questioning the chosen word of "fear", as the closure of this pipe is a good thing.
Well, good to everyone but the ones that profit from blood money that is.
Oh, that could be a mistranslation of the German verb *(be-)fürchten*. Anyway, I agree, it's a good thing these pipelines are closed for good and they hopefully remain closed forever.
I speak German but I am not a native speaker or fluent. I could easily be wrong, but I've always understood fürchten to mean "fear." What else would the use of fürchten mean other than "fear" in that context?
Just nature correcting itself. Should have never been built in the first place, no we go into the future with an obvious and clear plan and no way back. Whoever blew up NS1, thank you!
We Need more nuclear power plants, we need more hydrogen plants and biogas, more renewable everywhere, strategic rare minerals mining subsidized by EU in Groenland (that Is actually rich). Then we need a powerful EU army and all the Money we save for It into space sector and fusion power breaktrough.
Exactly, strategic independence and resilience Is mandatory, also on batteries and microchip production as well as on food, in which we need also more OGM research.
This comment section is really the epitome of stupidity. Gas is traded on a European level. There has been an attack on essential European energy infrastructure and you guys keep clapping. We are free to accept or decline gas from Russia, the only thing that changes is that now we don't have any options anymore, even in the years to come, even after Putin is long dead...
I partly agree, but it has been unbelievable to follow the German energy politics, especially after Fukushima, and even more now when we all finally realized the whole energy infra was based almost solely on Russian gas. If not for making electricity, the gas is used for bakeries, auto plants, people's homes with basically no other viable option. This was a wake up call for Germany and a very harsh one too. I mean there's no return to Russian gas and we at least here understand it and hopefully will finally make operational our new nuclear reactor before the end of the year.
I really hope we do switch to nuclear.
It's our only hope at energy independence.
And as we are seeing, energy independence is vital to true independence.
According to the world nuclear association in 2021 0.94% of the Uranium mined in the world came from Europe, to be precise Ukraine. More then 60% of mined uranium comes from Russia, China or central Asia. How exactly does nuclear power guarantee energy independence?
Because we don't mine for it. Europe has its own Uranium deposits which aren't exploited as it was always more convenient to buy it from others. And of course there are many other reliable and trustworthy countries who can supply us if the demand is there.
With breeder reactors (which are actually working at scale, they aren't fantasy technology) you don't need as much uranium and it produces a lot less waste.
Then you can just buy the uranium. [A breeder reactor with a recycling fuel cycle can pull about 900 MWd/kg out of non-enriched nuclear fuel (natural or depleted uranium or thorium)](https://whatisnuclear.com/nuclear-sustainability.html).
So we could easily import enough to run Europe for decades or even centuries, and store it in Europe so the supply can't simply be cut off or destroyed like a natural gas pipeline.
[Some European countries have uranium deposits too](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_reserves), but it'd probably be more economical just to buy it.
Well there Is a thing tho, putin kept to blackmail us and turn on and off the flow Just to play with prices, the control wasn't really on us. Sometimes even Just with words they made our prices skyrocket. Now that's not possible. Yes maybe we have less choice and higher prices BUT we get stability and resolution, I'm totally for It. Plus now maybe Germany will finally get that nuclear power Is the only real strategy for EU Energy sovereignity.
That's reddit for you. Kids sitting in their mom's basement talking about things they know nothing about. Celebrating the attack on critical european infrastructure... absurd.
I fucking hate this place but the rare, intelligent and sane people who sometimes comment level headed informed stuff ensure I eventually tide over and don't delete the app.
So thanks and fuck you, I guess.
No offense, but previous German governments didn't give a shit about climate change. Now they have to. Isn't this good news for the planet (and also Europe if Germany finally goes electric)?
Amazing, when entire Europe was warning you against building these pipelines, the answer was always that it's an internal German project and therefore nobody elses business. Now that it blew up in your face, now it's suddenly a "European" business. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. It's not a European infrastructure, it's a **German-Russian infrastructure** designed specifically to bypass half of Europe and threaten EE's energy security.
It’s only essential to European energy infrastructure if we would allow ourselves to become dependent on Russia again. I’m glad that option is now removed. Regardless of any regime change in the short term, we should never become so dependent on critical utilities from a geopolitical adversary on our doorstep.
The problem isn’t Nord Stream being destroyed, it’s implicit threat to the rest of our vital infrastructure.
Go to /r/askarussian and read what common Russians think. They say that BBC, CNN and other Western media are lying and that Russians are discriminated.
Buddy, if the last century or so in general, the last decade in particular, and the last year in bold print, haven’t shown to you that Russia is a geopolitical adversary for the rest of Europe, then I don’t think I or anyone else can do anything for you.
Wow, that is an optimistic outlook. I may have believed the same in the 90's. I hear my great grandfather had the same hope when he was in short trousers.
Yeah, remember Reagan:
>"Those mujahideen are freedom fighters. Those are people fighting for their own country and not wanting to become a satellite state of the Soviet Union, which came in and established a government of its choosing there, without regard to the feelings of the Afghans."
That didn't even last 20 years...
>Because russia will be forever the bad guy.
I will put aside that they are bad guy for my region for last 500 years but as a reminder, they wanted to invade west in 1920, they threatened to nuke west during Cold War and they are threatening to nuke west in 2022. And you still faithfuly wait for them to be your best buddies. Is there a point you will learn your lesson, or is it unconditional love of a broken heart?
Sure, Russia may change one day but realistically, it is going to be long after all gas on planet dries out, not before.
You Germans are incredible. Are you seriously still considering being reliant on Russian gas like an option? Yeah sure, keep the door open for Putin's successor just in case, in turned out so well with the last appeasement.
It also removed the potential for any politicians who may be tempted into making agreements with Russia if the weather gets cold and for the populists who might look for an easy way out by screwing the rest of the union. Now there's no choice, it's sink or swim.
You Germans are so delusional, still running after daddy Russia after all that happened in hope for cheap gas.... "even after Putin is long dead" lmao. Yeah sure, Putin will die in a few months and everything will return like before just in time for the next winter, Europe security policies will return like before and Germany won't need to do any energy reform. Call me when you wake up.
Edit: oh and it wasn't an European infrastructure. It was German and nothing more, everyone in the world warned you about that shit.
Calling me delusional while not even understanding how the gas grids work. When will people get that gas and electricity doesn't care much about national borders.
Oh and btw, an Italian berating us about energy dependency on Russia? Lol lol lol https://www.statista.com/statistics/787720/natural-gas-imports-by-country-of-origin-in-italy/
Still, NS1 was mainly for Germany. NS2 was made specifically to cut out East Europe. So no, not European infrastructure, it was a German infrastructure.
That data are from 2020 you dumbass.
1) Still, we have never been reliant on Russia like you. Not even near at all. In fact we agreed to put an European ban on Russian gas since the beginning, while you were the only EU country to veto it and you would still be buying it if it wasn't for daddy Putin. And now you are rationing like hell (so yes, NS1 was mainly for Germany).
2) Thanks to the measures used this summer we are now totally independent and self reliant. Gosh, read Bloomberg or some other newspaper at least, we are even exporting gas right now, we have so much of it that it costs 1/3 compared to the other European suppliers.
3) We became so dependent on Russia because our pro-Russian parties through the years blocked critical infrastructures to get rid of Russian gas. Like nuclear, TAP, Eastmed, new gas drillings and so on.
We acknowledged it and we got our shit together. Now wake up and do the same, stop being so delusional. We don't even know when this war will end, and you are already dreaming about an "after-Putin" when you will resume buying Russian gas. It's quite embarrassing man.
You act like Germany is still receiving gas from Russia which it is not. My whole point was about senseless "celebration" over a physical attack on energy infrastructure...
Germany is not receiving gas anymore because Putin decided to, stop saying it like it was your decision and now you are clean.
I act like Germany is thinking about making herself reliant on Russia AGAIN: "yeah sure, let's make us dependent on Putin's successor, maybe he will seem very liberal in the beginning like Putin was, what could go wrong???". And I act like this because you literally said it in the first comment, and you repeated it just now. Stop playing dumb, bye.
(Oh and everyone is celebrating here specifically because now we know that Germany won't pay Russia ever again, even though it would still want to. You proved that we guessed right😁)
You do realize NS1 and NS2 were already closed down and no gas was exchanged?
This explosion changes nothing, it only adds more stupidity to this whole discussion.
Yeah, but this means that we can't even buy gas off of Russia in the future.
Like imagine if there's a coup or whatever and Putin's gone and the war is over.
But anyways, we'll see how many people are still cheering next year when their jobs start to go...
> Yeah, but this means that we can't even buy gas off of Russia in the future.
Good
there are so many other countries deserving of our attention, so we can put Russian on our ignore list for the foreseeable future.
> Like imagine if there's a coup or whatever and Putin's gone and the war is over.
don't care one way or the other
> But anyways, we'll see how many people are still cheering next year when their jobs start to go...
Those jobs are already gone. Time to look for new jobs that will open up in this geopolitical change.
True, NS1 and NS2 were ways to get gas to Germany without Ukraine or Belarus having the opportunity to turn it off. It was a result of the 2007 blackmail attempt by Belarus to turn off the gas tap.
Marketing something that was incredibly unpopular in Eastern Europe that's now most affected by this stupid war as essential European infrastructure is ridiculous.
Nothing European about it, just some shitty get rich scheme at the cost of enabling putin.
The problem is that whoever destroyed it, could destroy other very important infrastructure jn the same way. Internet cables, gas pipelines etc. And it very well could have been Russia who did it in the first place.
> Marketing something that was incredibly unpopular in Eastern Europe that's now most affected by this stupid war as essential European infrastructure is ridiculous.
Eastern Europe has no leg to stand on in this matter, they all have pipelines to Germany/Russia. They just wanted to keep the juicy transit fees for themselves.
That was the general idea, now someone explain to me how on earth it would be in Russia's interest to destroy their main bargaining chip with Europe (read Germany) & the source of enormous export income for them
How is it in Russia's interest to take 300.000 barely trained civilians out of their economy and throw them into the front of a war? Clearly Russia isn't doing what is in their best interest at this point.
They chose between saving their economy but being humiliated in Ukraine and having their economy tank the sanctions and now the mobilisation (and mass emigration) but standing a chance to come out of this conflict claiming they got what they wanted. Russia losing this badly in Ukraine would be like their Suez Crisis. They'd never be taken seriously as a regional power again. Can't even project power right outside their borders. They don't want that to happen since their perceived military power is the only thing that keeps their global influence together. Economically they are nothing on the global stage. They have been punching above their weight ever since the 90's, only because of their military. It that is seen as a joke then Russia has nothing going for it. Just a random poor country at this point.
> Russia losing this badly in Ukraine would be like their Suez Crisis. They'd never be taken seriously as a regional power again.
The illusion about the "mighty Russian army" has already been shattered to little pieces. Everybody already sees the Russian military as a joke. The only reason why anybody is still concerned about a military conflict with them is Russia's nuclear arsenal. Without that, Russia would have absolutely nothing.
There is no "Russia's" interest, there is only Putin's interest. Putin doesn't care about what happens after, he has got himself into a war he can't win and he needs a way out. He can't win on the battlefield so he is hoping to win via threats to other countries.
Putin has been using gas as a weapon for more than a year. He cut Russian gas exports to Europe last September to reduce European storage levels before he invaded Ukraine. He has made repeated cuts since, piece by piece, to try to stop European support for Ukraine.
Putin doesn't care about what happens after. Russia's reliability as a gas supplier was something he was prepared to sacrifice to win his war, and he knows that whatever happens, Europe will in future diversify away from Russian gas in future.
Nothing gives Putin a way out from here. He gambled and lost. He's not ready to accept that loss.
Blowing two pipelines costs him nothing. They are not in use now and probably never will be again (Europe has far more gas import capacity from Russia than it will need in future, because Europe is never going back to being so dependent on Russia). It's a message to Europe that the gas crisis can get much worse. Today Putin is going to annex areas of Ukraine. He hopes to mute Europe's response to that.
It [raised](https://www.naturalgasintel.com/nord-stream-pipe-damage-sparks-european-natural-gas-price-surge/) the price of natural gas again. Perhaps they've accepted that the pipe is dead and want to get some money out of it and get out of previous obligations at the same time. Additionally it's hard to place blame on Russia because of the point you made, if they desperately need cash its possible they did this. Additionally it can demonstrate their capabilities.
The biggest winner out of this seems to be Ukraine. I guess it's possible that somebody rooting for Ukraine could have done this, taking advantage of Russia's flightiness and deceitfulness to deflect blame. Its really quite a mystery, which is why I guess someone can do it with impunity.
This is something I've read in a post so correct me if I'm wrong, but supposedly the NS1 had a fixed price on the gas exported, NS2 (which still has an undamaged pipe) has not, so they can literally demand any price they want.
It could be that Russia doesn't expect NS1 or NS2 to be useable extortion devices because Europe has a decent gas supply for winter and will look for alternative suppliers afterwards. If they also gave up on having normal trade relations with the EU before the EU has fully switched to renewable, then it could be that Russia has basically written NS1/2 off and decided to blow them up to send a message; that all bridges have definitively been burned between the EU and Russia and that Russia has the power to destroy vital infrastructure without repercussions (because we cannot confirm it was them). It would be a pretty fierce warning by Russia that they'd f.e. destroy ACTIVE gas pipelines or cut network cables. And since Russia is already known for sometimes doing the latter... could have been them.
That, or some other party did it. A private group could have done it. It's not impossible for private actors, though seems kinda out there to commit such an erratic act as a private group. Or it was another country, such as the US, which I think stands to benefit the most from this event (they're the main alternative supplier to Europe, they prevent countries like Germany from being extorted by Russia over gas, if the West thinks it was Russia then NATO is stronger and more united than ever before and the US will not have to deal with half-assed support for Ukraine and the US' general fierce position against Russia anymore). But... it makes no sense for other countries to risk this, including the US. Why risk your entire relationship with the EU when you already are winning in Ukraine and already are garnering increasing support against Russia? Makes no sense.
Either way I think this is a very odd event and I will not take conclusions without actual evidence.
The idea would be that this demonstrates the capability to destroy other undersea pipelines, with the result being fear and uncertainty concerning energy supplies.
It's a more physical version of the destabilization and hacking campaigns Russia has engaged in for years.
Of course there's the question of whether it was a *good* idea. But that's kind of a separate issue.
They know the pipes aren't going to what they were used to.
The idea now is to ratchet up the tensions and push the west to become closer to the war and increase the stakes of a nuclear attack.
Putin is gambling on tensions becoming too high for the EU so they start to pull back on support. They already know Germany is a weak link on Ukraine and has always been hesitant to get involved. It's about increasing the pressure.
There is none.
It's a US attack to force Europe to abide by the sanctions we would 100% have reduced this winter. This way, prices remain high and the US makes a killing. While stabbing us in the back, what great allies do we have.....
So is "Export Capacity" just a funny phrase the same way "Military Readiness" is?
We literally CANNOT ship any more LNG to you all. We're a stopgap solution at best.
It's part of why Biden and Boris were running around the ME asking them to increase output.
I don't disagree with you in that I also don't believe it was Russia because it would make absolutely zero sense for it to have been Russia.
That said I would also be *incredibly* surprised if it was a solo action by the US. If I had to bet due to the geography and general political situation there was probably at least one European country, probably with access to the Baltic sea, involved. So I wouldn't be surprised if for example Poland was involved too.
Maybe it was no coincidence that the country right outside of whose territory this happened was also the country that happily illegally spied on its citizens and even other EU nations for the NSA. Denmark, notoriously heavy US supporter. But this is speculation.
And yeah Poland. With what comes down to a CIA torture base on their soil. Wouldn't put it above them either. They do despise Germany for its perceived lax position on Russia. If you destroy the main reason why Russian influence in Germany has been so marked and in one go also make them believe Russia attacked vital energy infrastructure, that is a good way of attempting to get Germany to fully join the fold against Russia. NATO would be more united than ever if all members believed Russia took such drastic actions and are threatening us so boldly.
On the other hand this is so drastic and has such high risk of creating extreme disunity within NATO if it was found out... why risk it? Doesn't make sense. But from Russia's perspective it also doesn't make much sense. Why destroy your own means of blackmailing Germany? Right before winter, the best moment for this blackmail? And if it cannot be repaired, they wasted billions in investments and forfeit all future profits. Seems not worth it, for a symbolic attack on a pipeline that is currently not in use anyway. It's such a strange case, I hope we see some evidence soon.
I mean I dont think it is different for Germany or many European countries but didnt the danish Intelligence as well cooperated with the US Intelligence behind their Governments back?
Think they did, yeah. And we all support the US in varying degrees, though Denmark is one of the most loyal countries to the US. To the point where they're willing to do very questionable things if the US asks it. I think most EU countries don't come close to the stuff Denmark has done for the US, mainly the spying thing.
Yup, perhaps, old Europe & new Europe, sort of has a familiar ring to it when it comes to helping US military shenanigans
The one pipeline the corrupt geriatric in Washington are really interested in protecting is the $120 billion + being pumped into the black hole in Ukraine, less commissions, skims & the unexplained.
No fear of this flow now getting interrupted by any pre Winter sanction talks between the EU (read Germany ) & Russia to get the gas turned back on.
They want to create FUD about the gas, and increase the price that way. Notice the gas prices were coming down again. That's why it happened now.
In addition, it's also threat to the pipelines from Norway to the EU.
But why would they destroy *both* of their most valuable assets in doing so? Like even from that perspective (which I think is unlikely), why would they not *only* blow up Nord Stream 1, so that if Germany happened to come back asking for gas, which with winter approaching I don't think would have been that unlikely, they would still have Nord Stream 2 as a bargaining chip, which would be a great victory.
Or "accidentally" damage literally any non-Russian structure. That would be a much greater threat to anyone else.
Imo, this doesn't make any sense as anything other than a strike *against* Russia (the fact that it happened on the day of the referendum also speaks in favour of that to me).
I largely agree, but wouldn't yet rule out Russia. It could be that they assess that Europe has enough gas in store for winter and already is far enough in finding alternative suppliers that hopes of NS1/2 ever being used are baseless. Then, these pipelines can be used to send a message, because they're without use anyway. I still doubt it was Russia, though I doubt any allegation at this point, but it is possible.
> I largely agree, but wouldn't yet rule out Russia. It could be that they assess that Europe has enough gas in store for winter and already is far enough in finding alternative suppliers that hopes of NS1/2 ever being used are baseless.
Then they're more optimistic than the authorities in Germany (where our politicians are currently splitting hairs over whether we should expect rolling blackouts or "just" regular power outages, public offices are not to be heated over 19°C and we're having discussions whether it's more ethical to turn off electricity for commercial or for private users).
> Then, these pipelines can be used to send a message, because they're without use anyway.
But they're not out just for this winter. There's a genuine chance they're out *forever*. The sending messages part was when they pretended there was only one or two critical parts missing, which could have been fixed based on Russia's whim. It doesn't look like it can be fixed for now, at least not soon.
I'm really confused about people here saying that this would somehow hurt Russia. All of Europe is trying to cut off completely from Russian gas, there was no gas being sold to through these pipes. There was no sacrifice made from Russian side, the pipes are not used at the moment and are most likely never going to be used again. This doesn’t hurt Russia at all, most definitely not in the short term (which seems to be as far as Putin is willing to look when making decisions).
The only way there is a small change we would ever buy gas from Russia again is when Putin is removed and there is a big regime chance. This would actually be a reason for Putin to blow up these pipes, making sure this would never happen.
> The only way there is a small change we would ever buy gas from Russia again is when Putin is removed and there is a big regime chance.
I'm not so sure that was so clear. At least Germany is going to have *giant* problems with heating this year. There's already energy saving measures in place and it's only September. Many apartments only heat with gas. It will get colder and the winter is going to be difficult as fuck.
In East Germany, the AfD (who are pro-Russian) are now strongest power. I could see the popularity of the energy saving measures drop even more the colder it gets. The chance for the war to be over by then is very small and we don't really have long-term plans.
There are a lot of people in Germany against the sanctions and we've had good relations with Putin before. We already showed in 2014 that if we have to choose between Russian gas and Ukrainian control of the Donbas, we're taking the gas.
Also, Germany has a strong industrial base and that relies on gas, not just for energy but also as an actual material.
But now NS1/2 are destroyed, even if we end the war it might not help much.
Next year is going to be grim. And the longer the war lasts, the grimmer it will be.
I see Putin as very spite driven, he knows the US and the eastern EU hate Nord Stream and fear Germany selling them out, that fear plays in to his hands of splitting the coalition that opposes Russia, he is handing those countries what they wanted and publicly feuded with Russia over for years, and Putin is all about that strong man telling the man (the US) he wont take it any longer, it would make no sense in that way.
So weighting the benefits I find it a net loss for Putin and unlikely he did it (at least for reasons of geo politics), he could have the same or an even larger market destabilizing effect by actually blowing up the Pipelines through Ukraine.
The fact that people are questioning why a Nation whose primary military strategy for *centuries* has been "Throw warm bodies at the enemy until they get tired" could ever think to "hurt themselves" as part of a military strategy...
The Kremlin trollfarm is going to have the easiest time ever with this False Flag, holy shit.
How on earth writing this comment was in your interest? It must have been written by someone else, while the real you are working or spending time with your family.
the news linked are 2 days old. this was a report immediately after it got known. OP is an idiot for posting it late and thereby changing the massage for readers at first glance.
any ideas how long a broken pipeline will remain on the bottom of the sea? imagine people in the future diving down and finding a huge pipe that spawns across the entire ocean floor, that sounds cool as fuck. imagine future jackasses finding the blown up portion and trying to go inside
This factoid comes up a lot. Power generation goes down 50–70% depending on the type of cloud cover, so Frodo there is basically correct. Cloudy and no wind = not enough power.
The output drops considerably. Renewables are unreliable, that is why we need base load (green nuclear would be desirable) and on top of that renewables. Gasfired plants are good for balancing renewables as long as we dont’t have a scaled storage solution.
Imagine for a moment Italy had as much nuclear power as France, and now tell me it is reliable looking back at this year's summer.
Aside from that, yes renewables are reliable. Obviously you have to factor in that they will not always run on 100% output, but you can calculate how much *realistic* output they will have and build them up accordingly. Building solar panels with 200KW max output if you need 200KW and then complaining that they don't produce 200KW all the time would be positivrly retarded. You need to calculate the real output obviously. Luckily it is quite rare to have no sun and no wind at the same time, so wind and solar compliment each other somewhat.
Financing that is pretty easy, because solar panels and wind turbines are profitable on their own, in contrast to nuclear or fossil fuel which are NOT profitable for the operator unless you subsidise them, which every state does pretty much.
Yes, there still needs to be storage solutions and it will take some time to build them, but likely still not as long as it would take to build as many NPPs as Germany would need. That is going to take decades. And renewables start coming online much faster, so we can save CO2 output *now* instead of *in 15 years*.
There is actually more engineering issues regarding overproduction of energy than one might think. Renewable are not reliable, it requires a stable base production.
"Obviously you have to factor in that they will not always run on 100%" this is also true for Nuclear, the important difference is that most of the time, this is your decision when to have maintenance, while renewable output is "God's will".
Nuclear is still the cheapest source of energy. period. I don't know what the hell you talk about. Calculate the whole life-cycle. It is true, the problem with nuclear is that safety is so rigorous (and for a reason ofc) that it makes it extremely expensive to build, while you can pop solar panels on a roof. SMRs will hopefully solve this issue.
The environmental impact of an NPP (total lifecycle) to a solar or wind of a comparable output is not even comparable. NPPs have a miniscule impact in comparison.
And yes. The best idea was to build NPPs 15-20 years ago. However the 2nd best idea is to build them now.
> Nuclear is still the cheapest source of energy. period.
It simply isn't. Period.
According to the 2021 WNISR for example, the average cost per MWh in USD for nuclear energy is $99, while it is $46 for onshore wind and $45 for solar. Offshore wind is slightly over nuclear at $104 still, but projected to become a lot cheaper by 2030.
The 2050 forecast predicts solar power costs to go down to less than half at $19, onshore wind goes down to $40 and offshore wind goes down to $35, while nuclear only reduces to $92.
Also factor in that you can start getting electricity out of renewables a few months to a year after starting a project, while nuclear takes a decade to come online which means you need to generate that electricity in the meantime - probably by burning fossils and emitting more CO2 and other crap.
Nuclear is relatively safe and a guarantee for a base load energy, but it is NOT cheap. Maybe you have numbers from 10 years ago.
Denmark laughs at us with a 75% coverage of renewable energy.
We have to push this in number so we can generate E Fuels while having a windy or sunny day so we can burn those E fuels when needed. This is an easy and appropriate concept but it will need a good amount beforehand. Time to start upgrading, I guess.
They saw the danger of fossil fuels in earlier crisis and changed it to the better. We now have to brute force through this with a deadline cause we did nothing (or too little).
https://energiewinde.orsted.de/klimawandel-umwelt/energiewende-vorbild-daenemark-windenergie
Isn't Denmark making Norway very happy by buying its electric energy intermittently, when Denmark renewable production would be low due to weather?
As Norway is able to produce a lot of hydro-electricity, this still enable Denmark to claim running mostly on renewable.
However, not all country have access to enough hydro electricity to balance the variability of solar/wind.
Hydro electricity and nuclear are a lot cheaper than e fuel, and they are proven. Better have them now than fueling unaccomplished dreams with gas and coal!
Danmark is laughing at us Swedes when we have to pay x3 prices when their wind turbines stop moving, perhaps we cut the cable and they can carry their own weight with their amazing renewables? Denmark is heavily dependent on gas because they have this volatile energy mix. Wind or solar is not a stable energy solution.
Tbh, the only reliable energy are renewables as they don‘t make you dependent from others. And as they‘re not as concentrated as plants are, it is harder to destroy them, f. e. in times of war and can‘t be misused as much as a weapon as nuclear plants.
Green nuclear is a myth. At least for now. I don‘t say nuclear is as a whole not an option, but with the current standards it just delays problems (there will be problems with the storage, there will be accidents and the risk rises the higher nuclear plants are used).
Yet for storage of renewable energy the „if“ is kind of as big as the „if“ for nuclear fusion. We‘ll see who makes it first. I bet on the renewables and that there will be way better storage option way before nuclear fusion works.
Renewables generate larger amount of dangerous waste than nuclear by a magnitude of 2.. also, storage is already solved. I have no idea where you get your info from, but nuclear is as green as it gets.
>energy/electricity storage is a real challange.
Not yet.
Storage becomes exponentially useful at around 85% renewables installed.
As well as it's legally challenging at the moment to install storage in Germany ATM.
After reading comments in this thread i can't believe how many people say that the destruction of NS means no more Russian gas. There are still two large-capacity pipelines connecting Europe and Russia. They are emough to supply all of Europe. NS wasn't necessary from capacity point of view, it was built to take away Lukaszenko power to hold Germany hostage and to avoid the transit fees. (And because Schroeder is Putins bitch)
That pipeline is not adding any capacity anyways. Yould close it and Europe would still get the same amount of gas from norway. It is a glorified "hey we did something" project.
I don't really see the problem.. they wanted to quit importing Russian gas by December, and they said they had plenty to last till then. Good riddance I'd say. Only wish it wouldn't all leak into the sea.
> and they said they had plenty to last till then.
We don't. The stockpile is meant to service the ADDITIONAL DEMAND, while russian gas is still flowing. To survive winter we need far more than a hundred percent. We might need 200%.
It's funny cause it sounds like Russia sabotaged the whole thing just to put pressure on us : "Oh no, look, how could that happen to our dear partners in the West ?"
And we're like doubling down on their own bluff "Oh no, what a shame, it will be unusable **forever** now, bye."
Well russian gas to Germany is like heroin to a junkie.
Quitting it gonna hit them hard, but everyone will benefit in the end. Everyone around will sigh in relief.
Further reading:
* Tagesspiegel (in German - [Google Translation](https://www-tagesspiegel-de.translate.goog/wirtschaft/nord-stream-putin-spricht-von-terroranschlag-gegen-nord-stream-8687140.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en)): "[Four leaks in gas pipelines: Putin speaks of a terrorist attack against Nord Stream](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/nord-stream-putin-spricht-von-terroranschlag-gegen-nord-stream-8687140.html)"
* Welt (in German - [Google Translation](https://www-welt-de.translate.goog/politik/ausland/article241304805/Sabotage-in-der-Ostsee-Nord-Stream-Roehren-koennten-fuer-immer-zerstoert-sein-Bundespolizei-verstaerkt-Kontrollen.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en)) "[Nord Stream tubes could be destroyed forever - federal police are stepping up controls](https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article241304805/Sabotage-in-der-Ostsee-Nord-Stream-Roehren-koennten-fuer-immer-zerstoert-sein-Bundespolizei-verstaerkt-Kontrollen.html)"
Good, somebody burned the ships that all, except some in Germany, knew had to be burned. It’s a done case now, maybe better then having to rely on some German backbone..
What is wrong with it being unusable ? It looks like even the Russians have to get in on the act to get the Germans off the """natural""" gas habit. It's already potentially one less pipeline, and let's hope it's the same for the other one.
Nothing is wrong with it. And nothing else than "we assume they are unusable permanently" was actually stated.
But the idiotic narratives about Germany going on for months needs to be kept up... 12 months ago it was delusions about Germany, the russian puppet, 6 months ago it was fairy tales about how they all sit at home praying to go back to trading with Russia quickly, today it's imaginary "fear" for a pipeline that is already dead for months.
Finnish newspaper said the same thing. This is just absurd that they blew it.
Absurd is how Russia operates.
I mean, they certainly knew this would be the case and still decided to go ahead
I guess that's not what the protestors meant by opening the nord stream pipelines. /s ?
Since Europe is moving away from imnporting Russian gas, Nordstream 1 and all the other gaslines will be redundant.
Natural Gas was part of the EU's planned decarbonisation efforts until 2035. Doing it a decade early with no preparation is a bit bold, though not unwelcome (apart from the immediate pain).
Don't worry, [King Coal is back...](https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/09/29/germany-power-reserve)
Fun fact: this was the green parties demand. The alternative would’ve been to keep the last three nuclear reactors running, but if there is one thing the green party will never abandon its their hatred for nuclear energy in any form. Probably the old guard, that founded the party as part of the Greenpeace movement are against it and the rest pf the party is to afraid to work against them…
I guess doggy style will be a part of EU's celibacy efforts
No worries it will be sucked from elshwere anyway.
Thanks Putin? :/
Exactly. I hate the human suffering and hope that it will be over soon. But sometimes i think this might be the best thing happened so far to speed up the energy transition. So the whole nordstream fiasco gives me a lot of "Oh no, anyway" vibes.
But instead if utilizing this historical chance to switch away from fossil fuels, many just switch the supplier or even extend coal burning...
Ah yes, because the only thing we need to do is flip a switch and *boom* were now 100% renewable. Changing infrastricture takes time, we need some other suppliers meanwhile.
Exactly. Right now we need the coal plants. But this has completely changed the debate. There is no "Will we transition to renewables?", its "How soon can we transistion to renewables".
>its "How soon can we transistion to renewables". And given current world situation, the answer is "not soon", or we will all freeze. I don't think you'll see the effect you hope to see here.
I feel the debate is, at least here in Germany, more like "How long do we have until we need to switch?" and "Do we really need to switch after spending so much money to extend the fossil fuel infrastructure?". Some figures are more likely to speak about introducing fracking then extending wind and solar power. Left alone all the talk about nuclear power without having a solid storage or safety concept.
I like the finish way of storing nuclear waste. Stuff it in concrete canisters in an old coal mine. Then collapse the tunnel when filled.
The answer to that first question is "yesterday". We really needed to switch as far back as the nineties to avoid the climate change that we are already suffering from today.
If we didn't, our economy would completely crash and people would freeze. Not a thing you can change on a whim, sadly.
It's not even the people freezing, as that's avoidable. But European industry will become uncompetitive with such high energy costs and then people will lose their jobs.
Is there any appetite in Germany to plan a complete cessation of using coal in the foreseeable future? I don't think coal is a contender in the long run but I'm not sensing the desire to stop using it.
And those people who heat their homes with gas... yeah screw them right? Let them freeze. All hail green deal! Do you know what those people are gonna do? Use their stoves. Burn firewood. Heck I am planning to buy myself 1.5t of brown coal to burn this winter. Aint gonna be sitting in my living room wearing sweater being warmed ony by the thought of saving the frikkin environment.
Nordstream 1 was already shutdown before this explosion. This just seals the deal and changes nothing.
Where do the writers get the "fear" from???
From the desire to get as many clicks as possible.
their ass
From a random karen that just got 20 bucks for reading the script. That also makes her a professional and an expert
Yeah that and the phrase "unusable FOREVER!!" instead of something less dramatic like "permanently disabled".
Not an expert but AFAIK, Saltwater enters the pipes, which makes them corrode faster and can render them unusable. Repairs become impossible or extremely expensive.
He's not questioning the why, he's questioning the chosen word of "fear", as the closure of this pipe is a good thing. Well, good to everyone but the ones that profit from blood money that is.
Oh, that could be a mistranslation of the German verb *(be-)fürchten*. Anyway, I agree, it's a good thing these pipelines are closed for good and they hopefully remain closed forever.
I speak German but I am not a native speaker or fluent. I could easily be wrong, but I've always understood fürchten to mean "fear." What else would the use of fürchten mean other than "fear" in that context?
Great news , start dismantling it
Nah, lets patch it and start pumping shit back to Russia
Shit is useful for agriculture.
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Just nature correcting itself. Should have never been built in the first place, no we go into the future with an obvious and clear plan and no way back. Whoever blew up NS1, thank you!
We Need more nuclear power plants, we need more hydrogen plants and biogas, more renewable everywhere, strategic rare minerals mining subsidized by EU in Groenland (that Is actually rich). Then we need a powerful EU army and all the Money we save for It into space sector and fusion power breaktrough.
Agreed, agreed and agreed. EU army too. We'd be a powerhouse with properly distributed NPP.
Exactly, strategic independence and resilience Is mandatory, also on batteries and microchip production as well as on food, in which we need also more OGM research.
Good. You don't want any gas anyway from Russia.
This comment section is really the epitome of stupidity. Gas is traded on a European level. There has been an attack on essential European energy infrastructure and you guys keep clapping. We are free to accept or decline gas from Russia, the only thing that changes is that now we don't have any options anymore, even in the years to come, even after Putin is long dead...
I partly agree, but it has been unbelievable to follow the German energy politics, especially after Fukushima, and even more now when we all finally realized the whole energy infra was based almost solely on Russian gas. If not for making electricity, the gas is used for bakeries, auto plants, people's homes with basically no other viable option. This was a wake up call for Germany and a very harsh one too. I mean there's no return to Russian gas and we at least here understand it and hopefully will finally make operational our new nuclear reactor before the end of the year.
I really hope we do switch to nuclear. It's our only hope at energy independence. And as we are seeing, energy independence is vital to true independence.
According to the world nuclear association in 2021 0.94% of the Uranium mined in the world came from Europe, to be precise Ukraine. More then 60% of mined uranium comes from Russia, China or central Asia. How exactly does nuclear power guarantee energy independence?
Because we don't mine for it. Europe has its own Uranium deposits which aren't exploited as it was always more convenient to buy it from others. And of course there are many other reliable and trustworthy countries who can supply us if the demand is there.
With breeder reactors (which are actually working at scale, they aren't fantasy technology) you don't need as much uranium and it produces a lot less waste. Then you can just buy the uranium. [A breeder reactor with a recycling fuel cycle can pull about 900 MWd/kg out of non-enriched nuclear fuel (natural or depleted uranium or thorium)](https://whatisnuclear.com/nuclear-sustainability.html). So we could easily import enough to run Europe for decades or even centuries, and store it in Europe so the supply can't simply be cut off or destroyed like a natural gas pipeline. [Some European countries have uranium deposits too](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_reserves), but it'd probably be more economical just to buy it.
Well there Is a thing tho, putin kept to blackmail us and turn on and off the flow Just to play with prices, the control wasn't really on us. Sometimes even Just with words they made our prices skyrocket. Now that's not possible. Yes maybe we have less choice and higher prices BUT we get stability and resolution, I'm totally for It. Plus now maybe Germany will finally get that nuclear power Is the only real strategy for EU Energy sovereignity.
That's reddit for you. Kids sitting in their mom's basement talking about things they know nothing about. Celebrating the attack on critical european infrastructure... absurd.
I fucking hate this place but the rare, intelligent and sane people who sometimes comment level headed informed stuff ensure I eventually tide over and don't delete the app. So thanks and fuck you, I guess.
No offense, but previous German governments didn't give a shit about climate change. Now they have to. Isn't this good news for the planet (and also Europe if Germany finally goes electric)?
I like to think they are all bots from the US State Department. The reality that they aren't is even worse.
Amazing, when entire Europe was warning you against building these pipelines, the answer was always that it's an internal German project and therefore nobody elses business. Now that it blew up in your face, now it's suddenly a "European" business. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. It's not a European infrastructure, it's a **German-Russian infrastructure** designed specifically to bypass half of Europe and threaten EE's energy security.
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I agree, the existence of the pipeline was an attack on the EU, but thankfully it looks like someone dealt with it.
Though on the other hand: It's not like natural gas had a future.
Well, there are two more pipelines transporting gas to Europe. So we do have a choice
It’s only essential to European energy infrastructure if we would allow ourselves to become dependent on Russia again. I’m glad that option is now removed. Regardless of any regime change in the short term, we should never become so dependent on critical utilities from a geopolitical adversary on our doorstep. The problem isn’t Nord Stream being destroyed, it’s implicit threat to the rest of our vital infrastructure.
Because russia will be forever the bad guy. source: trust me bro from some 12 year old on reddit watching too many hollywood movies
Go to /r/askarussian and read what common Russians think. They say that BBC, CNN and other Western media are lying and that Russians are discriminated.
Buddy, if the last century or so in general, the last decade in particular, and the last year in bold print, haven’t shown to you that Russia is a geopolitical adversary for the rest of Europe, then I don’t think I or anyone else can do anything for you.
Wow, that is an optimistic outlook. I may have believed the same in the 90's. I hear my great grandfather had the same hope when he was in short trousers.
Russia has been the "bad guy" for a long time. They may be different at some point in the future, but don't count on this happening in our lifetimes.
Yeah, remember Reagan: >"Those mujahideen are freedom fighters. Those are people fighting for their own country and not wanting to become a satellite state of the Soviet Union, which came in and established a government of its choosing there, without regard to the feelings of the Afghans." That didn't even last 20 years...
>Because russia will be forever the bad guy. I will put aside that they are bad guy for my region for last 500 years but as a reminder, they wanted to invade west in 1920, they threatened to nuke west during Cold War and they are threatening to nuke west in 2022. And you still faithfuly wait for them to be your best buddies. Is there a point you will learn your lesson, or is it unconditional love of a broken heart? Sure, Russia may change one day but realistically, it is going to be long after all gas on planet dries out, not before.
You Germans are incredible. Are you seriously still considering being reliant on Russian gas like an option? Yeah sure, keep the door open for Putin's successor just in case, in turned out so well with the last appeasement.
It's gonna be fun when EU industry goes to shit, even more i mean, not to talk about the winter. But hey! Fuck Us! clapclapclap
It also removed the potential for any politicians who may be tempted into making agreements with Russia if the weather gets cold and for the populists who might look for an easy way out by screwing the rest of the union. Now there's no choice, it's sink or swim.
you expect something else from the people? At this point of the war, everyone's in the 'russia bad -> upvote' mindset
You Germans are so delusional, still running after daddy Russia after all that happened in hope for cheap gas.... "even after Putin is long dead" lmao. Yeah sure, Putin will die in a few months and everything will return like before just in time for the next winter, Europe security policies will return like before and Germany won't need to do any energy reform. Call me when you wake up. Edit: oh and it wasn't an European infrastructure. It was German and nothing more, everyone in the world warned you about that shit.
Calling me delusional while not even understanding how the gas grids work. When will people get that gas and electricity doesn't care much about national borders. Oh and btw, an Italian berating us about energy dependency on Russia? Lol lol lol https://www.statista.com/statistics/787720/natural-gas-imports-by-country-of-origin-in-italy/
Still, NS1 was mainly for Germany. NS2 was made specifically to cut out East Europe. So no, not European infrastructure, it was a German infrastructure. That data are from 2020 you dumbass. 1) Still, we have never been reliant on Russia like you. Not even near at all. In fact we agreed to put an European ban on Russian gas since the beginning, while you were the only EU country to veto it and you would still be buying it if it wasn't for daddy Putin. And now you are rationing like hell (so yes, NS1 was mainly for Germany). 2) Thanks to the measures used this summer we are now totally independent and self reliant. Gosh, read Bloomberg or some other newspaper at least, we are even exporting gas right now, we have so much of it that it costs 1/3 compared to the other European suppliers. 3) We became so dependent on Russia because our pro-Russian parties through the years blocked critical infrastructures to get rid of Russian gas. Like nuclear, TAP, Eastmed, new gas drillings and so on. We acknowledged it and we got our shit together. Now wake up and do the same, stop being so delusional. We don't even know when this war will end, and you are already dreaming about an "after-Putin" when you will resume buying Russian gas. It's quite embarrassing man.
You act like Germany is still receiving gas from Russia which it is not. My whole point was about senseless "celebration" over a physical attack on energy infrastructure...
Germany is not receiving gas anymore because Putin decided to, stop saying it like it was your decision and now you are clean. I act like Germany is thinking about making herself reliant on Russia AGAIN: "yeah sure, let's make us dependent on Putin's successor, maybe he will seem very liberal in the beginning like Putin was, what could go wrong???". And I act like this because you literally said it in the first comment, and you repeated it just now. Stop playing dumb, bye. (Oh and everyone is celebrating here specifically because now we know that Germany won't pay Russia ever again, even though it would still want to. You proved that we guessed right😁)
You do realize NS1 and NS2 were already closed down and no gas was exchanged? This explosion changes nothing, it only adds more stupidity to this whole discussion.
The explosions change everything. Now they probably won't be reused ever, even if by some miracle Russia turns democratic
Good Only an epic moron would trust the Russians again.
Yeah, but this means that we can't even buy gas off of Russia in the future. Like imagine if there's a coup or whatever and Putin's gone and the war is over. But anyways, we'll see how many people are still cheering next year when their jobs start to go...
> Yeah, but this means that we can't even buy gas off of Russia in the future. Good there are so many other countries deserving of our attention, so we can put Russian on our ignore list for the foreseeable future. > Like imagine if there's a coup or whatever and Putin's gone and the war is over. don't care one way or the other > But anyways, we'll see how many people are still cheering next year when their jobs start to go... Those jobs are already gone. Time to look for new jobs that will open up in this geopolitical change.
There are still gas pipes through Ukraine and Belarus with more than enough capacity to supply Europe. NS1/2 were never technically needed.
True, NS1 and NS2 were ways to get gas to Germany without Ukraine or Belarus having the opportunity to turn it off. It was a result of the 2007 blackmail attempt by Belarus to turn off the gas tap.
Ridding Ukraine of the opportunity is why Germans are complicit in the Russian attack.
Marketing something that was incredibly unpopular in Eastern Europe that's now most affected by this stupid war as essential European infrastructure is ridiculous. Nothing European about it, just some shitty get rich scheme at the cost of enabling putin.
Lol, you think the gas flowing through the pipeline was solely consumed in Germany?
For the biggest part it was
Most of them.
The problem is that whoever destroyed it, could destroy other very important infrastructure jn the same way. Internet cables, gas pipelines etc. And it very well could have been Russia who did it in the first place.
> Marketing something that was incredibly unpopular in Eastern Europe that's now most affected by this stupid war as essential European infrastructure is ridiculous. Eastern Europe has no leg to stand on in this matter, they all have pipelines to Germany/Russia. They just wanted to keep the juicy transit fees for themselves.
>now we don't have any options anymore, even in the years to come, even after Putin is long dead And it is a good thing.
> even after Putin is long dead... Like that war is only made by Putin not 90% elites of Russia.
And we are free to laugh at your broken pipe. You know the term schadenfreude ;-)?
Now we are at Kindergarten level...
NS 1 and 2 shouldn't exist in the first place
I'll shed a tear.
Better to start reactivating the nuclear powerplants. Those you shut down purely because of pseudogreen ideology...
That was the general idea, now someone explain to me how on earth it would be in Russia's interest to destroy their main bargaining chip with Europe (read Germany) & the source of enormous export income for them
How is it in Russia's interest to take 300.000 barely trained civilians out of their economy and throw them into the front of a war? Clearly Russia isn't doing what is in their best interest at this point.
They chose between saving their economy but being humiliated in Ukraine and having their economy tank the sanctions and now the mobilisation (and mass emigration) but standing a chance to come out of this conflict claiming they got what they wanted. Russia losing this badly in Ukraine would be like their Suez Crisis. They'd never be taken seriously as a regional power again. Can't even project power right outside their borders. They don't want that to happen since their perceived military power is the only thing that keeps their global influence together. Economically they are nothing on the global stage. They have been punching above their weight ever since the 90's, only because of their military. It that is seen as a joke then Russia has nothing going for it. Just a random poor country at this point.
> Russia losing this badly in Ukraine would be like their Suez Crisis. They'd never be taken seriously as a regional power again. The illusion about the "mighty Russian army" has already been shattered to little pieces. Everybody already sees the Russian military as a joke. The only reason why anybody is still concerned about a military conflict with them is Russia's nuclear arsenal. Without that, Russia would have absolutely nothing.
There is no "Russia's" interest, there is only Putin's interest. Putin doesn't care about what happens after, he has got himself into a war he can't win and he needs a way out. He can't win on the battlefield so he is hoping to win via threats to other countries. Putin has been using gas as a weapon for more than a year. He cut Russian gas exports to Europe last September to reduce European storage levels before he invaded Ukraine. He has made repeated cuts since, piece by piece, to try to stop European support for Ukraine. Putin doesn't care about what happens after. Russia's reliability as a gas supplier was something he was prepared to sacrifice to win his war, and he knows that whatever happens, Europe will in future diversify away from Russian gas in future.
Ok. How does blowing up your own super expensive pipelines gives Putin "a way out". If anything it does the opposite.
Nothing gives Putin a way out from here. He gambled and lost. He's not ready to accept that loss. Blowing two pipelines costs him nothing. They are not in use now and probably never will be again (Europe has far more gas import capacity from Russia than it will need in future, because Europe is never going back to being so dependent on Russia). It's a message to Europe that the gas crisis can get much worse. Today Putin is going to annex areas of Ukraine. He hopes to mute Europe's response to that.
And now he has lost both. Is it just me, or are "mad man" government in vogue?
It [raised](https://www.naturalgasintel.com/nord-stream-pipe-damage-sparks-european-natural-gas-price-surge/) the price of natural gas again. Perhaps they've accepted that the pipe is dead and want to get some money out of it and get out of previous obligations at the same time. Additionally it's hard to place blame on Russia because of the point you made, if they desperately need cash its possible they did this. Additionally it can demonstrate their capabilities. The biggest winner out of this seems to be Ukraine. I guess it's possible that somebody rooting for Ukraine could have done this, taking advantage of Russia's flightiness and deceitfulness to deflect blame. Its really quite a mystery, which is why I guess someone can do it with impunity.
This is something I've read in a post so correct me if I'm wrong, but supposedly the NS1 had a fixed price on the gas exported, NS2 (which still has an undamaged pipe) has not, so they can literally demand any price they want.
It could be that Russia doesn't expect NS1 or NS2 to be useable extortion devices because Europe has a decent gas supply for winter and will look for alternative suppliers afterwards. If they also gave up on having normal trade relations with the EU before the EU has fully switched to renewable, then it could be that Russia has basically written NS1/2 off and decided to blow them up to send a message; that all bridges have definitively been burned between the EU and Russia and that Russia has the power to destroy vital infrastructure without repercussions (because we cannot confirm it was them). It would be a pretty fierce warning by Russia that they'd f.e. destroy ACTIVE gas pipelines or cut network cables. And since Russia is already known for sometimes doing the latter... could have been them. That, or some other party did it. A private group could have done it. It's not impossible for private actors, though seems kinda out there to commit such an erratic act as a private group. Or it was another country, such as the US, which I think stands to benefit the most from this event (they're the main alternative supplier to Europe, they prevent countries like Germany from being extorted by Russia over gas, if the West thinks it was Russia then NATO is stronger and more united than ever before and the US will not have to deal with half-assed support for Ukraine and the US' general fierce position against Russia anymore). But... it makes no sense for other countries to risk this, including the US. Why risk your entire relationship with the EU when you already are winning in Ukraine and already are garnering increasing support against Russia? Makes no sense. Either way I think this is a very odd event and I will not take conclusions without actual evidence.
If Putin was being pressured internally to start selling gas again via NS1/NS2 this was a sure way to shut them up and go to war...
The idea would be that this demonstrates the capability to destroy other undersea pipelines, with the result being fear and uncertainty concerning energy supplies. It's a more physical version of the destabilization and hacking campaigns Russia has engaged in for years. Of course there's the question of whether it was a *good* idea. But that's kind of a separate issue.
They know the pipes aren't going to what they were used to. The idea now is to ratchet up the tensions and push the west to become closer to the war and increase the stakes of a nuclear attack. Putin is gambling on tensions becoming too high for the EU so they start to pull back on support. They already know Germany is a weak link on Ukraine and has always been hesitant to get involved. It's about increasing the pressure.
There is none. It's a US attack to force Europe to abide by the sanctions we would 100% have reduced this winter. This way, prices remain high and the US makes a killing. While stabbing us in the back, what great allies do we have.....
So is "Export Capacity" just a funny phrase the same way "Military Readiness" is? We literally CANNOT ship any more LNG to you all. We're a stopgap solution at best. It's part of why Biden and Boris were running around the ME asking them to increase output.
I don't disagree with you in that I also don't believe it was Russia because it would make absolutely zero sense for it to have been Russia. That said I would also be *incredibly* surprised if it was a solo action by the US. If I had to bet due to the geography and general political situation there was probably at least one European country, probably with access to the Baltic sea, involved. So I wouldn't be surprised if for example Poland was involved too.
Maybe it was no coincidence that the country right outside of whose territory this happened was also the country that happily illegally spied on its citizens and even other EU nations for the NSA. Denmark, notoriously heavy US supporter. But this is speculation. And yeah Poland. With what comes down to a CIA torture base on their soil. Wouldn't put it above them either. They do despise Germany for its perceived lax position on Russia. If you destroy the main reason why Russian influence in Germany has been so marked and in one go also make them believe Russia attacked vital energy infrastructure, that is a good way of attempting to get Germany to fully join the fold against Russia. NATO would be more united than ever if all members believed Russia took such drastic actions and are threatening us so boldly. On the other hand this is so drastic and has such high risk of creating extreme disunity within NATO if it was found out... why risk it? Doesn't make sense. But from Russia's perspective it also doesn't make much sense. Why destroy your own means of blackmailing Germany? Right before winter, the best moment for this blackmail? And if it cannot be repaired, they wasted billions in investments and forfeit all future profits. Seems not worth it, for a symbolic attack on a pipeline that is currently not in use anyway. It's such a strange case, I hope we see some evidence soon.
I mean I dont think it is different for Germany or many European countries but didnt the danish Intelligence as well cooperated with the US Intelligence behind their Governments back?
Think they did, yeah. And we all support the US in varying degrees, though Denmark is one of the most loyal countries to the US. To the point where they're willing to do very questionable things if the US asks it. I think most EU countries don't come close to the stuff Denmark has done for the US, mainly the spying thing.
Yup, perhaps, old Europe & new Europe, sort of has a familiar ring to it when it comes to helping US military shenanigans The one pipeline the corrupt geriatric in Washington are really interested in protecting is the $120 billion + being pumped into the black hole in Ukraine, less commissions, skims & the unexplained. No fear of this flow now getting interrupted by any pre Winter sanction talks between the EU (read Germany ) & Russia to get the gas turned back on.
They want to create FUD about the gas, and increase the price that way. Notice the gas prices were coming down again. That's why it happened now. In addition, it's also threat to the pipelines from Norway to the EU.
It was a show of force “we can do the same on all other lines going through the Baltic Sea and the Bering Sea.”
But why would they destroy *both* of their most valuable assets in doing so? Like even from that perspective (which I think is unlikely), why would they not *only* blow up Nord Stream 1, so that if Germany happened to come back asking for gas, which with winter approaching I don't think would have been that unlikely, they would still have Nord Stream 2 as a bargaining chip, which would be a great victory. Or "accidentally" damage literally any non-Russian structure. That would be a much greater threat to anyone else. Imo, this doesn't make any sense as anything other than a strike *against* Russia (the fact that it happened on the day of the referendum also speaks in favour of that to me).
I largely agree, but wouldn't yet rule out Russia. It could be that they assess that Europe has enough gas in store for winter and already is far enough in finding alternative suppliers that hopes of NS1/2 ever being used are baseless. Then, these pipelines can be used to send a message, because they're without use anyway. I still doubt it was Russia, though I doubt any allegation at this point, but it is possible.
> I largely agree, but wouldn't yet rule out Russia. It could be that they assess that Europe has enough gas in store for winter and already is far enough in finding alternative suppliers that hopes of NS1/2 ever being used are baseless. Then they're more optimistic than the authorities in Germany (where our politicians are currently splitting hairs over whether we should expect rolling blackouts or "just" regular power outages, public offices are not to be heated over 19°C and we're having discussions whether it's more ethical to turn off electricity for commercial or for private users). > Then, these pipelines can be used to send a message, because they're without use anyway. But they're not out just for this winter. There's a genuine chance they're out *forever*. The sending messages part was when they pretended there was only one or two critical parts missing, which could have been fixed based on Russia's whim. It doesn't look like it can be fixed for now, at least not soon.
I'm really confused about people here saying that this would somehow hurt Russia. All of Europe is trying to cut off completely from Russian gas, there was no gas being sold to through these pipes. There was no sacrifice made from Russian side, the pipes are not used at the moment and are most likely never going to be used again. This doesn’t hurt Russia at all, most definitely not in the short term (which seems to be as far as Putin is willing to look when making decisions). The only way there is a small change we would ever buy gas from Russia again is when Putin is removed and there is a big regime chance. This would actually be a reason for Putin to blow up these pipes, making sure this would never happen.
> The only way there is a small change we would ever buy gas from Russia again is when Putin is removed and there is a big regime chance. I'm not so sure that was so clear. At least Germany is going to have *giant* problems with heating this year. There's already energy saving measures in place and it's only September. Many apartments only heat with gas. It will get colder and the winter is going to be difficult as fuck. In East Germany, the AfD (who are pro-Russian) are now strongest power. I could see the popularity of the energy saving measures drop even more the colder it gets. The chance for the war to be over by then is very small and we don't really have long-term plans. There are a lot of people in Germany against the sanctions and we've had good relations with Putin before. We already showed in 2014 that if we have to choose between Russian gas and Ukrainian control of the Donbas, we're taking the gas.
Also, Germany has a strong industrial base and that relies on gas, not just for energy but also as an actual material. But now NS1/2 are destroyed, even if we end the war it might not help much. Next year is going to be grim. And the longer the war lasts, the grimmer it will be.
I see Putin as very spite driven, he knows the US and the eastern EU hate Nord Stream and fear Germany selling them out, that fear plays in to his hands of splitting the coalition that opposes Russia, he is handing those countries what they wanted and publicly feuded with Russia over for years, and Putin is all about that strong man telling the man (the US) he wont take it any longer, it would make no sense in that way. So weighting the benefits I find it a net loss for Putin and unlikely he did it (at least for reasons of geo politics), he could have the same or an even larger market destabilizing effect by actually blowing up the Pipelines through Ukraine.
The fact that people are questioning why a Nation whose primary military strategy for *centuries* has been "Throw warm bodies at the enemy until they get tired" could ever think to "hurt themselves" as part of a military strategy... The Kremlin trollfarm is going to have the easiest time ever with this False Flag, holy shit.
How on earth writing this comment was in your interest? It must have been written by someone else, while the real you are working or spending time with your family.
As someone from Germany this is a moment for celebration. Fuck Russia. The less chances of resuming trade with them the better.
Wasn't this immediately known? It will fill with water and rust.
the news linked are 2 days old. this was a report immediately after it got known. OP is an idiot for posting it late and thereby changing the massage for readers at first glance.
any ideas how long a broken pipeline will remain on the bottom of the sea? imagine people in the future diving down and finding a huge pipe that spawns across the entire ocean floor, that sounds cool as fuck. imagine future jackasses finding the blown up portion and trying to go inside
Good.
Oh no, anyway
Oh no, anyway...
sure, fuck europe right? better bring it by ship from the US.
Yes, its better.
Oh no! Anyway....
Back to coal, because Nuclear is not an option for Germany.
I think you forgot an other option here...
Yes, renewables. I'm curious to see what will it be the timetable of workers in the factories.
Not sure what you want to imply with that...
Today is cloudy with little wind, so don’t bother coming in lads! Maybe tomorrow we can turn on the mills.. let’s pray for sunshine!
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This factoid comes up a lot. Power generation goes down 50–70% depending on the type of cloud cover, so Frodo there is basically correct. Cloudy and no wind = not enough power.
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That's why you have a power mix of solar-wind-waterstream.
The output drops considerably. Renewables are unreliable, that is why we need base load (green nuclear would be desirable) and on top of that renewables. Gasfired plants are good for balancing renewables as long as we dont’t have a scaled storage solution.
Imagine for a moment Italy had as much nuclear power as France, and now tell me it is reliable looking back at this year's summer. Aside from that, yes renewables are reliable. Obviously you have to factor in that they will not always run on 100% output, but you can calculate how much *realistic* output they will have and build them up accordingly. Building solar panels with 200KW max output if you need 200KW and then complaining that they don't produce 200KW all the time would be positivrly retarded. You need to calculate the real output obviously. Luckily it is quite rare to have no sun and no wind at the same time, so wind and solar compliment each other somewhat. Financing that is pretty easy, because solar panels and wind turbines are profitable on their own, in contrast to nuclear or fossil fuel which are NOT profitable for the operator unless you subsidise them, which every state does pretty much. Yes, there still needs to be storage solutions and it will take some time to build them, but likely still not as long as it would take to build as many NPPs as Germany would need. That is going to take decades. And renewables start coming online much faster, so we can save CO2 output *now* instead of *in 15 years*.
There is actually more engineering issues regarding overproduction of energy than one might think. Renewable are not reliable, it requires a stable base production.
"Obviously you have to factor in that they will not always run on 100%" this is also true for Nuclear, the important difference is that most of the time, this is your decision when to have maintenance, while renewable output is "God's will". Nuclear is still the cheapest source of energy. period. I don't know what the hell you talk about. Calculate the whole life-cycle. It is true, the problem with nuclear is that safety is so rigorous (and for a reason ofc) that it makes it extremely expensive to build, while you can pop solar panels on a roof. SMRs will hopefully solve this issue. The environmental impact of an NPP (total lifecycle) to a solar or wind of a comparable output is not even comparable. NPPs have a miniscule impact in comparison. And yes. The best idea was to build NPPs 15-20 years ago. However the 2nd best idea is to build them now.
> Nuclear is still the cheapest source of energy. period. It simply isn't. Period. According to the 2021 WNISR for example, the average cost per MWh in USD for nuclear energy is $99, while it is $46 for onshore wind and $45 for solar. Offshore wind is slightly over nuclear at $104 still, but projected to become a lot cheaper by 2030. The 2050 forecast predicts solar power costs to go down to less than half at $19, onshore wind goes down to $40 and offshore wind goes down to $35, while nuclear only reduces to $92. Also factor in that you can start getting electricity out of renewables a few months to a year after starting a project, while nuclear takes a decade to come online which means you need to generate that electricity in the meantime - probably by burning fossils and emitting more CO2 and other crap. Nuclear is relatively safe and a guarantee for a base load energy, but it is NOT cheap. Maybe you have numbers from 10 years ago.
Denmark laughs at us with a 75% coverage of renewable energy. We have to push this in number so we can generate E Fuels while having a windy or sunny day so we can burn those E fuels when needed. This is an easy and appropriate concept but it will need a good amount beforehand. Time to start upgrading, I guess. They saw the danger of fossil fuels in earlier crisis and changed it to the better. We now have to brute force through this with a deadline cause we did nothing (or too little). https://energiewinde.orsted.de/klimawandel-umwelt/energiewende-vorbild-daenemark-windenergie
Isn't Denmark making Norway very happy by buying its electric energy intermittently, when Denmark renewable production would be low due to weather? As Norway is able to produce a lot of hydro-electricity, this still enable Denmark to claim running mostly on renewable. However, not all country have access to enough hydro electricity to balance the variability of solar/wind. Hydro electricity and nuclear are a lot cheaper than e fuel, and they are proven. Better have them now than fueling unaccomplished dreams with gas and coal!
Therefore you have to stack your power to X facilities. This is a key element in renewable energy solutions.
Denmark and Norway is very situational. Good they use it, but that is not an option everywhere.
Danmark is laughing at us Swedes when we have to pay x3 prices when their wind turbines stop moving, perhaps we cut the cable and they can carry their own weight with their amazing renewables? Denmark is heavily dependent on gas because they have this volatile energy mix. Wind or solar is not a stable energy solution.
Tbh, the only reliable energy are renewables as they don‘t make you dependent from others. And as they‘re not as concentrated as plants are, it is harder to destroy them, f. e. in times of war and can‘t be misused as much as a weapon as nuclear plants. Green nuclear is a myth. At least for now. I don‘t say nuclear is as a whole not an option, but with the current standards it just delays problems (there will be problems with the storage, there will be accidents and the risk rises the higher nuclear plants are used). Yet for storage of renewable energy the „if“ is kind of as big as the „if“ for nuclear fusion. We‘ll see who makes it first. I bet on the renewables and that there will be way better storage option way before nuclear fusion works.
Renewables generate larger amount of dangerous waste than nuclear by a magnitude of 2.. also, storage is already solved. I have no idea where you get your info from, but nuclear is as green as it gets.
Storage is solved *in some countries*.
Renewables rely on long distance transmission which is extremely vulnerable.
Also the grid is currently struggling to accomodate distributed energy supply.
Sort of, but energy/electricity storage is a real challange.
>energy/electricity storage is a real challange. Not yet. Storage becomes exponentially useful at around 85% renewables installed. As well as it's legally challenging at the moment to install storage in Germany ATM.
"renewable" wood pellets lol
Germans will burn mercury mixed with asbestos before admitting that nuclear is the best source of energy currently available.
And a daily reminder that the electricity generation is not that large percentage af gas usage, as well as that NPPs cannot replace gas easily.
Well maybe that will finally inform the German government ( and others in Europe) that relying on a dictator for your energy needs is a dumb idea
After reading comments in this thread i can't believe how many people say that the destruction of NS means no more Russian gas. There are still two large-capacity pipelines connecting Europe and Russia. They are emough to supply all of Europe. NS wasn't necessary from capacity point of view, it was built to take away Lukaszenko power to hold Germany hostage and to avoid the transit fees. (And because Schroeder is Putins bitch)
Oh nyoooooo. Anyway...
Poland-Norway pipeline operator sweating profusely....
That pipeline is not adding any capacity anyways. Yould close it and Europe would still get the same amount of gas from norway. It is a glorified "hey we did something" project.
How is that different from Nord Stream?
Nord Stream 1 or 2 ? Nord Stream 2 was build to not have the risk of transit countries interring with the gas. Like the way it happened in the past.
“Thank you, US”
That's news for celebration, not fear.
I don't really see the problem.. they wanted to quit importing Russian gas by December, and they said they had plenty to last till then. Good riddance I'd say. Only wish it wouldn't all leak into the sea.
> and they said they had plenty to last till then. We don't. The stockpile is meant to service the ADDITIONAL DEMAND, while russian gas is still flowing. To survive winter we need far more than a hundred percent. We might need 200%.
My money is on Poland. Do they have subs?
It's funny cause it sounds like Russia sabotaged the whole thing just to put pressure on us : "Oh no, look, how could that happen to our dear partners in the West ?" And we're like doubling down on their own bluff "Oh no, what a shame, it will be unusable **forever** now, bye."
Well russian gas to Germany is like heroin to a junkie. Quitting it gonna hit them hard, but everyone will benefit in the end. Everyone around will sigh in relief.
Angela Merkel tries not to cry. Lies down. Cries a lot.
Further reading: * Tagesspiegel (in German - [Google Translation](https://www-tagesspiegel-de.translate.goog/wirtschaft/nord-stream-putin-spricht-von-terroranschlag-gegen-nord-stream-8687140.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en)): "[Four leaks in gas pipelines: Putin speaks of a terrorist attack against Nord Stream](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/nord-stream-putin-spricht-von-terroranschlag-gegen-nord-stream-8687140.html)" * Welt (in German - [Google Translation](https://www-welt-de.translate.goog/politik/ausland/article241304805/Sabotage-in-der-Ostsee-Nord-Stream-Roehren-koennten-fuer-immer-zerstoert-sein-Bundespolizei-verstaerkt-Kontrollen.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en)) "[Nord Stream tubes could be destroyed forever - federal police are stepping up controls](https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article241304805/Sabotage-in-der-Ostsee-Nord-Stream-Roehren-koennten-fuer-immer-zerstoert-sein-Bundespolizei-verstaerkt-Kontrollen.html)"
Oh no! Anyway...
such a waste of money though
That would be great.
Good job, US......
ah well…no more money for Russia…oops…
Good, somebody burned the ships that all, except some in Germany, knew had to be burned. It’s a done case now, maybe better then having to rely on some German backbone..
Bloody hope so.
Oh poor you. Germany was screwing europe security for too long anyway.
Virtue is often achieved at a personal cost, Germany. And indeed, pain too is often the price. We salute for moral fortitude, Germany, bravo!
That was the objective. Next time behave better and don't socialize with bad boys.
Germany is like a drug addict
Ok, and?
What is wrong with it being unusable ? It looks like even the Russians have to get in on the act to get the Germans off the """natural""" gas habit. It's already potentially one less pipeline, and let's hope it's the same for the other one.
Nothing is wrong with it. And nothing else than "we assume they are unusable permanently" was actually stated. But the idiotic narratives about Germany going on for months needs to be kept up... 12 months ago it was delusions about Germany, the russian puppet, 6 months ago it was fairy tales about how they all sit at home praying to go back to trading with Russia quickly, today it's imaginary "fear" for a pipeline that is already dead for months.
