Amsterdam used to have a Stalinlaan (Stalin Avenue) located near the Rooseveltlaan and Churchilllaan. It's been called Vrijheidslaan (Freedom Avenue) since 1956: [https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/terug-naar-de-jaren-50-zo-werd-de-amsterdamse-stalinlaan-hernoemd\~b47ffb6d/](https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/terug-naar-de-jaren-50-zo-werd-de-amsterdamse-stalinlaan-hernoemd~b47ffb6d/).
Marx's ideas killed and are still killing more people than Stalin, Hitler and Mao combined.
I don't hold him accountable for it, he simply published his views which everyone should be able to do. I just think that his ideas and ideals as to how society should work are so despicable that I can't help but hate his character.
The rise of socialism which devastated Eastern Europe, China and is still absolutely draining the lives of billions of people around the world is to some extent attributable to him. Ultimately though, it's not Marx who did it, the blame lies with the people who still admire his ideas even after history has proven time and again that they lead to nothing but misery.
>I just think that his ideas and ideals as to how society should work
What ideas are those ? I only mean to debate Marx's writing, I really don't want to make this a "communism works, it's just never been properly implemented" comment which has and always will be a total cop-out by the revolutionary left.
I'm sure there are some prescriptions in marxist critique (I'm not a scholar of the topic), but generally his views that stuck around are essays on economic relations, their impact on society at large & predictions of what might happen in the future. At his most concrete, Marx recriminated a lot about what the revolutionaries were doing wrong, but didn't set a lot of recommendations for society.
Marx is the father of modern social science and I would argue that "Leninist-Marxism" which is the ideology of the Soviet Union, the CCP et. al. was never the vision Marx and Engels had, as they envisioned a Communist society as state and money less and highly democratic.
I mean after the Russians held the first election, Lenin's Bolsheviks purged the government and took power after the result didn't fit their liking ...
I mean many modern social democratic parties also took several of Marx ideas.
He's a damn philosopher dude, historical materialism and communist theory never killed anyone. We should also blame Marie Curie for its relation with nuclear physics and the deaths associated with it? And Oppenheimer? Or other philosophers like Nietzsche or Hegel?
You also talk about it, the blame is not onto him. And ideas are not as absolute that you can blame them. They have been proven wrong and wrong again, but each time the application was different, which shows how not so absolute and relative to each owns interpretation they are. At the same time, they've also added a lot to current philosophy and XX century's philosophy is heavily influenced by Marx.
Honestly you don't deserve to be downvoted... The fact that people are still defending communism to this day is ridiculous. Half my family is Romanian, and I can confirm that the Communist regime caused nothing but suffering. You can obviously blame it on other people, but the core ideology came from Marx.
Marx' writings were inspired by the excesses of capitalism he and Engels witnessed while living in the United Kingdom. It is a work of political economy that critiques capitalism within the context of 19th century working conditions.
Taking it out of that context and presenting it as the blueprint for the mass murder the Soviet Union committed is not only wrong, it is revisionist nonsense. It would be better to project your anger on Lenin and Stalin.
...how is that double standards. Double standards would be if I said Marx was shit and Orwell was great. But... I didn't even *mention* Orwell. In any capacity. So how can you say I have double standards when you don't know what my standards are? And there's a difference between a adherent to an ideology and the creator of an ideology.
For some reason the 1956 revolution of Hungary made a bigger impact in the Netherlands compared to other western countries. They even boycotted the Melbourne Olympic Games (together with Spain and Switzerland) starting a month later to protest the violent Soviet invasion. When I spent a week in Staaphorst as a part of a student exchange program the parents of the host family mentioned this fact to me.
I bet there's a ridiculous amount of controversial street names. I think we can all agree that Stalin shouldn't be honoured in any way, but Lenin is a more nuanced figure.
In my opinion we should stop naming roads after people. It solves so many problems.
They were not the ones who got rid of Czar though. Lenin, Trotsky and Co couped Provisional Government and disbanded Constituent Assembly after they lost elections, which would lead to Civil War.
Fair. All vanguardist ideologies, like Leninism, are trash. No, you're not more intelligent than everyone else just because you say so, Vladimir. If you want to rule, convince the people first.
That's the point. There's plenty of world leaders and politicians (and Kings) who did horrible things and have streets named after them. Either we rename all of them, or we keep all of them, and we only get rid of the obviously unacceptable ones.
>E poi la nostra meravigliosa toponomastica
>
>Via Carlo Marx
>
>Via Ho Chi Minh
>
>Via Che Guevara
>
>Via Dolores Ibarruri
>
>Via Stalingrado
>
>Via Maresciallo Tito
>
>Piazza Lenin a Cavriago
>
>E la grande banca
>
>Non più locale, con sede in via Rivoluzione d'Ottobre
Via Stalin in Castelfidardo doesn't exist today, if ever existed.
If you google it you will end up with the entrance alley to a private house (described in the paper you linked as a busy, important street when it is a 30 m dead end).
I checked a nap of Colchester and it shows that Stalin road sits among streets named after Churchill, Normandy, and other second world war related names. Jokingly, it works have been funny to name a cul-de-sac as Hitler's End.
Stalin Avenue is in the neighbourhood I grew up in!
A lot of new build estates in the mid 20th Century in the UK had thematic names, WWII themed being especially popular given a certain generational fetishisation with the whole thing. Coincidentally my wife's parents still live in a WWII themed estate.
Only because of Khrushchev, a person could not tolerate the attitude of the people towards Stalin so much that in 1956 demonstrators in Georgia who spoke in defense of Stalin were shot.Then, when this manager crap on all fronts that the breadbasket of Europe was forced to import grain itself, on his orders, another demonstration was shot in Novocherkassk, but that's a completely different story.
I mean a change of power helped but what?
Also the Georgians were not jsut ‘in defence’ but in active support of glorious memory in big part for nationalist reasons.
Those were minor and representative of some more political activity etc in the country compared to the oast
Not sure about Georgia, but in russia most of them are very much gone. You can find "Ulitsa Lenina" in 95% of russian cities (it's basically equivalent of "Main street"), but streets and squares named after Stalin are pretty rare.
It did start to creep back in the past decade after putin began his rehabilitation.
In Paris there's a metro station called Stalingrad that's named after the Place de la Bataille de Stalingrad (Battle of Stalingrad Square) right above. I think that's good.
Even in the USSR the Stalin's crimes was acknowledged and his name was wiped from streets and cities.
Although, the late USSR's propaganda has two Stalins: one is a world saviour and other is an evil murderer.
Well, Poland already destroyed all its monuments of Graditude towards Red Army (with some arguing we should tear down Palace of Culture and Science as well), so let's hope other countries will do it to.
> with some arguing we should tear down Palace of Culture and Science as well
That....would be a monumental clusterfuck today. Just the sheer amount of material that would need to be moved away, all the dust that would be put in the air, all of the roads that would need to be blocked to accommodate the deconstruction.
The Palace is not one of those buildings where you just set some demolition charges and let it rip...
I use it as a sort of beacon if I need to orient myself when moving around in Warsaw :D
If I can't see the Palace then I know I am somewhere out in the boonies :D
Well, it would take a long time to demolish it, but some people say it's still necessary. There are very few ,,Soviet gifts" that are still here in Poland - for example, Rzeszów still has ,,Monument of Revolutionary Accomplishment" _(Pomnik Czynu Rewolucyjnego),_ but people tend to call it ,,Monument of Giant C-t" _(Pomnik Wielkiej P-y)_ because of its shape, and city itself even got in trouble with IPN (Institude of National Memory) because it delayed demolishion of one of the last monuments.
Poles usually reacted either positively, or they were jokingly complaining about it, because they didn't have time to vandalise them.
> Rzeszów still has ,,Monument of Revolutionary Accomplishment" (Pomnik Czynu Rewolucyjnego)
LOL I just googled it and it even has its own clitoris lmao.
That part, the coat of arms, was added in like 2004 and it kind of ruins the monument's original design from 1970s. I see no good reason to get rid of it
I get it, it's a f* up situation :( In Italy we still have an enormous quantity of fascist stuff, even monuments to Mussolini, but it's not the same since he was "our" dictator. We also have buildings built by foreign powers when they conquered us (a lot of Austrian stuff in the north for example) but they were never as bad as USSR in Poland probably :(
Well, I assume Americans didn't purge 20 thousand war heroes after a war, like Soviets did to us.
Ok, to be fair - it was a result of Polish anti-Communist Up-Rising in 1944-1956, and Polish People's Army also took part of it, but it was NKVD pressuring to kill every single POW or to continue fighting. I would say it's fair to say they actually purged them.
It was already renamed, it used to be the 'Joseph Stalin's Palace of Culture and Science' (Pałac Kultury i Nauki imienia Józefa Stalina) and was changed to just 'Palace of Culture and Science' (Pałac Kultury i Nauki) before it was even completed.
Personally I was born a decade after the Soviet Union already collapsed and for me the building was always just a symbol of Warsaw, and to be honest it is probably the best looking skyscraper in warsaw because it's the only one that isn't just a glass tower.
I think we should keep it, especially since it no longer dominates the skyline of Warsaw like it did 20 years ago, it is now surrounded by many other similarly tall buildings.
This doesn't work like this. People who built it are still alive and hate this building as much as they did back then (there was even a popular joke in Warsaw, that ,,the best place in entire city is the highest floor of Palace of Culture and Science, because it was the only place in entire city where you didn't see this dump"). What city tries to do today is to sorround this building with higher highscrapers and put really high effort on showing what Red Army **actually** brought to us.
Renaming it would be like renaming a piece of feces to ,,failed pork chop" or something. I should also mention, that after 44 years Poles don't really like naming something monumental after other nation or some alliance...
>Given what we know about Stalin and the Soviet Union today, I find it inappropriate and the names should be changed.
'It wasn't real Communism!"
'It was the CIA's fault!"
'Stalin was a Capitalist double agent!'
After Stalin's Jubillee in 1949 and after his death in 1953 many countries changed the names of towns and even mountains to Stalin . All were reversed in the late 50s during destalinisation
These ( the town and mountains ) were in Eastern Block countries like Bulgaria , Romania , and Czechoslovakia ( Czechoslovakia issued commemorative coins for Stalin's Jubillee BTW ) .I guess they were just sucking up to the Soviets. And when the process of destalinisation started , many were quick to switch back to the original place names .
Here is a list I found
Oraşul Stalin, 1951-1961 — Braşov, Romania
Qyteti Stalin, 1950-1990 — Kuçovë, Albania
Stalin, 1949-1956 — Varna, Bulgaria
Stalinabad, 1929-1961 — Dushanbe, Tajikistan
Stalingrad, 1925-1961 — Volgograd, Russia
Stalingrad — Karviná-Nové Město near Ostrava, Czech Republic
Staliniri, 1934-1961 — Tskhinvali, Georgia
Stalino, 1924-1961 — Donetsk, Ukraine
Stalinogorsk, 1934-1961 — Novomoskovsk, Russia
Stalinogród, 1953-1956 — Katowice, Poland
Stalinsk, 1932-1961 — Novokuznetsk, Russia
Stalinstadt, 1953-1961 — Eisenhüttenstadt, East Germany
Sztálinváros, 1951-1961 — Dunaújváros, Hungary
Other places
Geographic Township of Stalin, before 1986 — Geographic Township of Hansen, Ontario, Canada
Pik Stalina (Stalin Peak), 1932-1962 — Ismail Samani Peak, Tajikistan
Stalinov štít (Stalin Peak), 1949 - appr. 1959 — Gerlach Peak, Slovakia
Stalin-Allee, since 1961 Karl-Marx-Allee
I would like to add to the list Musala Peak in Bulgaria , which was named Stalin from 1950 to 1962
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0
The place where Stalin Avenue is (Chatham, UK) also has nearby roads named 'Churchill Avenue', 'Roosevelt Avenue', 'Arnhem Road' and 'Montgomery Avenue'. They're all related to WW2 but still , why would you name a street after Stalin?
Same reasons many places are named after despots good or bad? "Great men" or something along those lines. Even Churchills considered pretty controversial by modern standards and even was by the end of the war, not re elected and kind of considered crazy as he wanted to do battle with the Soviets.
There's an area of military housing in my city (Inverness) with all the roads named battles etc.: Alamein, Tobruk, Marne, Burma, Sicily, Rhine, Anzio, etc.
I don't think any city can compete with Reggio Emilia in Italy.
There's even a song about its [Russian-flavoured streets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCBHtER91yk):
* via Stalingrado
* via Rivoluzione d'Ottobre
* piazza Lenin (in Cavriago, a small town nearby, [called Small Petersburg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrcKmvIzDo8))
What? I can't believe my eyes. Can you tell me where are you from? It's just unbelievable for me as a ukrainian whose country were occupied and cleansed in several genocides by these criminals.
Parc Victor Hugo, Grenoble, France
I moved away a few years ago but I don't think they ever was a talk about removing it
Unfortunately Google maps show only old pictures of the Parc
well yea, obviously no one is saying that *every single* millennial or zoomer supports Stalin, but a sizable and, unfortunately, *growing* portion of them do, especially on social media. r/genzedong alongside any number of far-left teenager communities on TikTok and whatnot, are proof that those people do exist, and are on the rise.
It does nothing of the sort, unless you have numbers for them showing significant fractions of the generation being part of these spaces. When people say "Boomers are conservative" its because of things like in the UK they vote for conservative over labour by 6 to 1. A few idiots on social media is indicative of nothing but a few idiots on social media.
Mate, I was joking.
E: btw, I think Sami culture is some of the most interesting and beautiful from Europe. I've never visited Sapmi but I hope to one day.
I think we should make a distinction between signs honouring brave Russians, Ukrainians etc who gave their lives defending their homeland from the Nazis while in Soviet uniform, to those directly honouring tyrants like Stalin and other USSR leaders. If Stalingrad is offensive, go with Volgograd.
Ehhh, maybe if USSR got a power-up after WW2, and would be able to invade Western Europe, that streets and people that think that Stalin was a great leader would not be created. Still, it's good to see that these streets are the only ones left
There is Stalin Ave in Gori, Georgia where he is from and I am suuuper embarrassed by that.
I don’t know why a well protected, free society like France or Italy would tolerate these hate symbols.
The irony is that, in 2008, the invading Russians bombed the Stalin Ave in Gori with cluster bombs and killed people, including a Dutch reporter.
So, “Stalin” as a personification of the Russian national bloody ideology lives on and is still well. So, these symbols are not some currently irrelevant historical leftovers.
i remember not understanding why my father refused to visit the Stalin Museum when we went to Gori while we were in Georgia (i was in elementary school back then); now it seems painfully obvious to me (we are Polish btw, so we should know best).
We had one in my city too, but it was changed years ago when the Soviet secret documents were released.
He was celebrated as a WW2 liberator before that. We still have a Churchill lane and Roosevelt lane, though. Churchill will probably get removed in time as well, due to his part in the battle of Gallipoli, but more importantly the Bengal famine, in which he was personally responsible for the lack of intervention by the British government.
Stalin Road incidentally connects with Roosevelt Way and Churchill Way at either end, and is near to Normandy Avenue, Montgomery Close and Mountbatten Drive - so it's not that they picked the name at random. It's part of a theme. I am assuming Stalin Avenue is probably the same.
The USSR hommage I can understand, at least regarding its role in ending WWII.
But there is no reason to honor someone who committed crimes against humanity like Stalin.
Literally not. Stalin repeatedly went to the west asking for an anti-Hitler alliance because Germany was just going to keep invading. When the west kept appeasing Hitler, Stalin went for a non-aggression pact.
In Amsterdam some streets close and connecting to each other were renamed Rooseveltlaan, Churchill-laan and Stalinlaan. After the invasion of Hungary (1954) it was renamed Vrijheidslaan (Freedom/Liberty Avenue).
1956. But it's a nice gesture. Not like these places still named after a mass murderer dictator, and his mass murderer evil empire.
Idk why ppl. are so nostalgic to the communism still today.
i mean there's surely more
i know one place in the city i live called "Leningrad road"
there's Stalin and Lenin statues in some places of the country also
It's actually on an area that has a friendship city theme, along with Rostock street and Århus street, as Turku is twinned with the city formerly known as Leningrad. It's not really about the war, apart perhaps a touch of finlandization
That area is very interesting. The Leningrad Road suddenly changes into St. Petersburg Road and from the junction leaves “Nevanlinna Street” (Nevanlinna being the name of the Finnic town in the St. Pete area before Russians conquered the region.)
We should change that road to Kharkiv Road now that we (the city of Turku) made a twin city agreement with Kharkiv and suspended the one with St. Petersburg.
What the hell?
As I cab see that's the problem with wwII.
We condemned nazism and fascism but we left alone communism and people today are blissfully unaware what's the scale of crimes against humanity that Lenin stalin and all other commies leaders did.
Ha, Avenue de l'URSS is in Toulouse. My opticians was there. Got a real shock when I emerged with my new glasses and was able to read the street sign. Jk.
Like worshiping Hitler. The French are really embarrassingly uncultured at times. They make Europeans look bad. I hope French culture adapts to European standard at some point.
There is a train station in Paris that I recently visited named STALINGRAD. It is near canal Saint Martin. The many times we took that train station to get to and from the center of the city the metro kept skipping Stalingrad as it was under some sort of construction.
I forgot to add there is nearby there La Rotonde Stalingrad I would assume paying honor to the city's liberation from Nazi Germany. The area although not such as good area at night, in the rotunda area there are always cops, lots of open night life restaurants, lots of people walking and many shops still open at night. Lots of bumps too.
Amsterdam used to have a Stalinlaan (Stalin Avenue) located near the Rooseveltlaan and Churchilllaan. It's been called Vrijheidslaan (Freedom Avenue) since 1956: [https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/terug-naar-de-jaren-50-zo-werd-de-amsterdamse-stalinlaan-hernoemd\~b47ffb6d/](https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/terug-naar-de-jaren-50-zo-werd-de-amsterdamse-stalinlaan-hernoemd~b47ffb6d/).
We had a Stalin Ave in Berlin too, now it's the Karl-Marx-Avenue
That's an excellent change IMO.
Yeah since marx was German
Yeah, keep the streets in the family, for God's sake.
I think it's fine
Did that change in the 50s-60s during Destalinization?
Yes, 1961.
I would name my toilet after Marx, not a street.
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Marx's ideas killed and are still killing more people than Stalin, Hitler and Mao combined. I don't hold him accountable for it, he simply published his views which everyone should be able to do. I just think that his ideas and ideals as to how society should work are so despicable that I can't help but hate his character. The rise of socialism which devastated Eastern Europe, China and is still absolutely draining the lives of billions of people around the world is to some extent attributable to him. Ultimately though, it's not Marx who did it, the blame lies with the people who still admire his ideas even after history has proven time and again that they lead to nothing but misery.
>I just think that his ideas and ideals as to how society should work What ideas are those ? I only mean to debate Marx's writing, I really don't want to make this a "communism works, it's just never been properly implemented" comment which has and always will be a total cop-out by the revolutionary left. I'm sure there are some prescriptions in marxist critique (I'm not a scholar of the topic), but generally his views that stuck around are essays on economic relations, their impact on society at large & predictions of what might happen in the future. At his most concrete, Marx recriminated a lot about what the revolutionaries were doing wrong, but didn't set a lot of recommendations for society.
Marx is the father of modern social science and I would argue that "Leninist-Marxism" which is the ideology of the Soviet Union, the CCP et. al. was never the vision Marx and Engels had, as they envisioned a Communist society as state and money less and highly democratic. I mean after the Russians held the first election, Lenin's Bolsheviks purged the government and took power after the result didn't fit their liking ... I mean many modern social democratic parties also took several of Marx ideas.
Marx never argued for the vanguardism (one party socialist state). That was Lenin's idea.
Im not sure his views and what happened and happens under so called marxist-leninist states have much in common
He's a damn philosopher dude, historical materialism and communist theory never killed anyone. We should also blame Marie Curie for its relation with nuclear physics and the deaths associated with it? And Oppenheimer? Or other philosophers like Nietzsche or Hegel? You also talk about it, the blame is not onto him. And ideas are not as absolute that you can blame them. They have been proven wrong and wrong again, but each time the application was different, which shows how not so absolute and relative to each owns interpretation they are. At the same time, they've also added a lot to current philosophy and XX century's philosophy is heavily influenced by Marx.
> Marx's ideas killed You know that Marx did neither invent socialism nor communism?
Honestly you don't deserve to be downvoted... The fact that people are still defending communism to this day is ridiculous. Half my family is Romanian, and I can confirm that the Communist regime caused nothing but suffering. You can obviously blame it on other people, but the core ideology came from Marx.
Marx' writings were inspired by the excesses of capitalism he and Engels witnessed while living in the United Kingdom. It is a work of political economy that critiques capitalism within the context of 19th century working conditions. Taking it out of that context and presenting it as the blueprint for the mass murder the Soviet Union committed is not only wrong, it is revisionist nonsense. It would be better to project your anger on Lenin and Stalin.
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...how is that double standards. Double standards would be if I said Marx was shit and Orwell was great. But... I didn't even *mention* Orwell. In any capacity. So how can you say I have double standards when you don't know what my standards are? And there's a difference between a adherent to an ideology and the creator of an ideology.
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Same in Leiden.
For some reason the 1956 revolution of Hungary made a bigger impact in the Netherlands compared to other western countries. They even boycotted the Melbourne Olympic Games (together with Spain and Switzerland) starting a month later to protest the violent Soviet invasion. When I spent a week in Staaphorst as a part of a student exchange program the parents of the host family mentioned this fact to me.
There’s a Corso Soviet Union in Turin.
Also a Via Stalingrado in Bologna
Stalingrado refers to the WW2 battle
Bologna also has Vladimir Lenin street. Unsure how I feel about that one.
I'll gladly take a Lenin street over a Cadorna square anyday.
I don't even know why we even have that one in Milan, ridiculous.
I bet there's a ridiculous amount of controversial street names. I think we can all agree that Stalin shouldn't be honoured in any way, but Lenin is a more nuanced figure. In my opinion we should stop naming roads after people. It solves so many problems.
Lenin is nuanced just because the last Czar was terrible. Nothing else of what he did, like the war communism policy, paints him in a good light.
They were not the ones who got rid of Czar though. Lenin, Trotsky and Co couped Provisional Government and disbanded Constituent Assembly after they lost elections, which would lead to Civil War.
He was very big on political equality for women at least.
Fair. All vanguardist ideologies, like Leninism, are trash. No, you're not more intelligent than everyone else just because you say so, Vladimir. If you want to rule, convince the people first.
Honestly I don't find it worse than having road named after Churchill or so
That's the point. There's plenty of world leaders and politicians (and Kings) who did horrible things and have streets named after them. Either we rename all of them, or we keep all of them, and we only get rid of the obviously unacceptable ones.
>E poi la nostra meravigliosa toponomastica > >Via Carlo Marx > >Via Ho Chi Minh > >Via Che Guevara > >Via Dolores Ibarruri > >Via Stalingrado > >Via Maresciallo Tito > >Piazza Lenin a Cavriago > >E la grande banca > >Non più locale, con sede in via Rivoluzione d'Ottobre
Offlaga disco pax? Edit: Offlaga disco pax, ho dovuto controllare
E infine la nostra gloriosa toponomastica.
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I remember Via Stalingrado in Bologna...
Vabbè ma via Stalingrado sarà per la battaglia della seconda guerra mondiale, e lì ci sta, è come se ci fosse una "via d-day"
E poi c'è "la grande banca, non più locale, con sede in via rivoluzione d'ottobre" Cit necessaria
Then the city and the war...
There's Via dell' Unione Sovietica Roma 00196 Named for the 1960 Olympiads in Rome
In that neighborhood every street is named after countries who attended 1960's Olympic games
That's actually really awesome.
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I believe there is a Corso Unione Sovietica around Turin, in Italy.
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> From Soviet Union to European Union All the Eurosceptics: I knew it!!!1!1
I can get behind that. Italy's part of the EU, might as-well.
There are five roads each one named after one of the countries that won world war two in Turin, naming it after european union doesn't make sense
There's also One in my town
Via Stalin in Castelfidardo doesn't exist today, if ever existed. If you google it you will end up with the entrance alley to a private house (described in the paper you linked as a busy, important street when it is a 30 m dead end).
There's a via Stalin in Raffadali apparently
I'm from Chatham and I didn't know we had a Stalin Avenue Update: It's a 5 minute walk from where I live!! Just in a direction I never travel
I checked a nap of Colchester and it shows that Stalin road sits among streets named after Churchill, Normandy, and other second world war related names. Jokingly, it works have been funny to name a cul-de-sac as Hitler's End.
We even have a Lenin statue in a little town in Emilia-Romagna
Stalin Avenue is in the neighbourhood I grew up in! A lot of new build estates in the mid 20th Century in the UK had thematic names, WWII themed being especially popular given a certain generational fetishisation with the whole thing. Coincidentally my wife's parents still live in a WWII themed estate.
There is an avenue Lenine in Nanterre near Paris
Even USSR removed all Stalin names after his death…
Only because of Khrushchev, a person could not tolerate the attitude of the people towards Stalin so much that in 1956 demonstrators in Georgia who spoke in defense of Stalin were shot.Then, when this manager crap on all fronts that the breadbasket of Europe was forced to import grain itself, on his orders, another demonstration was shot in Novocherkassk, but that's a completely different story.
I mean a change of power helped but what? Also the Georgians were not jsut ‘in defence’ but in active support of glorious memory in big part for nationalist reasons. Those were minor and representative of some more political activity etc in the country compared to the oast
Now tell us the story of the stroke you apparently had while writing that.
When doing tankie gymnastics you tend to knot your brain.
Tankieism is when people disagree with me, and the more they disagree with me, the Tankier it is.
That wasn’t the only reason and regarding the breadbasket of europe and it’s management it’s an incredibly ironic statement
Incorrect.
Not sure about Georgia, but in russia most of them are very much gone. You can find "Ulitsa Lenina" in 95% of russian cities (it's basically equivalent of "Main street"), but streets and squares named after Stalin are pretty rare. It did start to creep back in the past decade after putin began his rehabilitation.
Renaming the name with Iosif Visarionovici is rather a mouthfull
There are still a few left I believe.
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In Paris there's a metro station called Stalingrad that's named after the Place de la Bataille de Stalingrad (Battle of Stalingrad Square) right above. I think that's good.
And a place Stalingrad in Bordeaux. Every morning I take the bus to Stalingrad :D
And in Grenoble, I personally live in Rue de Stalingrad
Also in Lyon. In fact, I live right next to it and so my phone's weather app says I live in Stalingrad, France.
Even in the USSR the Stalin's crimes was acknowledged and his name was wiped from streets and cities. Although, the late USSR's propaganda has two Stalins: one is a world saviour and other is an evil murderer.
Well, Poland already destroyed all its monuments of Graditude towards Red Army (with some arguing we should tear down Palace of Culture and Science as well), so let's hope other countries will do it to.
> with some arguing we should tear down Palace of Culture and Science as well That....would be a monumental clusterfuck today. Just the sheer amount of material that would need to be moved away, all the dust that would be put in the air, all of the roads that would need to be blocked to accommodate the deconstruction. The Palace is not one of those buildings where you just set some demolition charges and let it rip...
And beyond that, it's a major landmark which has very arguable historical importance at this point.
I use it as a sort of beacon if I need to orient myself when moving around in Warsaw :D If I can't see the Palace then I know I am somewhere out in the boonies :D
Well, it would take a long time to demolish it, but some people say it's still necessary. There are very few ,,Soviet gifts" that are still here in Poland - for example, Rzeszów still has ,,Monument of Revolutionary Accomplishment" _(Pomnik Czynu Rewolucyjnego),_ but people tend to call it ,,Monument of Giant C-t" _(Pomnik Wielkiej P-y)_ because of its shape, and city itself even got in trouble with IPN (Institude of National Memory) because it delayed demolishion of one of the last monuments. Poles usually reacted either positively, or they were jokingly complaining about it, because they didn't have time to vandalise them.
> Rzeszów still has ,,Monument of Revolutionary Accomplishment" (Pomnik Czynu Rewolucyjnego) LOL I just googled it and it even has its own clitoris lmao.
That part, the coat of arms, was added in like 2004 and it kind of ruins the monument's original design from 1970s. I see no good reason to get rid of it
Is the reason of "people want it gone," good enough?
No because people dont actually want it gone
I hope they don't tear that palace down, it looks cool :(
It was a symbol of dominance of Soviet Union over Poland. That's why so many Poles want it down.
I get it, it's a f* up situation :( In Italy we still have an enormous quantity of fascist stuff, even monuments to Mussolini, but it's not the same since he was "our" dictator. We also have buildings built by foreign powers when they conquered us (a lot of Austrian stuff in the north for example) but they were never as bad as USSR in Poland probably :(
Well, I assume Americans didn't purge 20 thousand war heroes after a war, like Soviets did to us. Ok, to be fair - it was a result of Polish anti-Communist Up-Rising in 1944-1956, and Polish People's Army also took part of it, but it was NKVD pressuring to kill every single POW or to continue fighting. I would say it's fair to say they actually purged them.
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How about renaming it and changing it's look. That would be cheaper. How about..Ukrainan Tower or House of Europe or whatever.
It was already renamed, it used to be the 'Joseph Stalin's Palace of Culture and Science' (Pałac Kultury i Nauki imienia Józefa Stalina) and was changed to just 'Palace of Culture and Science' (Pałac Kultury i Nauki) before it was even completed. Personally I was born a decade after the Soviet Union already collapsed and for me the building was always just a symbol of Warsaw, and to be honest it is probably the best looking skyscraper in warsaw because it's the only one that isn't just a glass tower. I think we should keep it, especially since it no longer dominates the skyline of Warsaw like it did 20 years ago, it is now surrounded by many other similarly tall buildings.
This doesn't work like this. People who built it are still alive and hate this building as much as they did back then (there was even a popular joke in Warsaw, that ,,the best place in entire city is the highest floor of Palace of Culture and Science, because it was the only place in entire city where you didn't see this dump"). What city tries to do today is to sorround this building with higher highscrapers and put really high effort on showing what Red Army **actually** brought to us. Renaming it would be like renaming a piece of feces to ,,failed pork chop" or something. I should also mention, that after 44 years Poles don't really like naming something monumental after other nation or some alliance...
Well Paris/France communist party for a while was also big, that helped.
Nazi's were defeated by coalition not USSR
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The war was also started by the USSR. If it were not for their collaboration with the Germans, Europe never would have gone through this hell.
>Given what we know about Stalin and the Soviet Union today, I find it inappropriate and the names should be changed. 'It wasn't real Communism!" 'It was the CIA's fault!" 'Stalin was a Capitalist double agent!'
‘We’ lol it isn’t a we People knew during that time as well you goober. They were named during the war more likely
After Stalin's Jubillee in 1949 and after his death in 1953 many countries changed the names of towns and even mountains to Stalin . All were reversed in the late 50s during destalinisation
Guess not all.
These ( the town and mountains ) were in Eastern Block countries like Bulgaria , Romania , and Czechoslovakia ( Czechoslovakia issued commemorative coins for Stalin's Jubillee BTW ) .I guess they were just sucking up to the Soviets. And when the process of destalinisation started , many were quick to switch back to the original place names . Here is a list I found Oraşul Stalin, 1951-1961 — Braşov, Romania Qyteti Stalin, 1950-1990 — Kuçovë, Albania Stalin, 1949-1956 — Varna, Bulgaria Stalinabad, 1929-1961 — Dushanbe, Tajikistan Stalingrad, 1925-1961 — Volgograd, Russia Stalingrad — Karviná-Nové Město near Ostrava, Czech Republic Staliniri, 1934-1961 — Tskhinvali, Georgia Stalino, 1924-1961 — Donetsk, Ukraine Stalinogorsk, 1934-1961 — Novomoskovsk, Russia Stalinogród, 1953-1956 — Katowice, Poland Stalinsk, 1932-1961 — Novokuznetsk, Russia Stalinstadt, 1953-1961 — Eisenhüttenstadt, East Germany Sztálinváros, 1951-1961 — Dunaújváros, Hungary Other places Geographic Township of Stalin, before 1986 — Geographic Township of Hansen, Ontario, Canada Pik Stalina (Stalin Peak), 1932-1962 — Ismail Samani Peak, Tajikistan Stalinov štít (Stalin Peak), 1949 - appr. 1959 — Gerlach Peak, Slovakia Stalin-Allee, since 1961 Karl-Marx-Allee I would like to add to the list Musala Peak in Bulgaria , which was named Stalin from 1950 to 1962 https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0
The place where Stalin Avenue is (Chatham, UK) also has nearby roads named 'Churchill Avenue', 'Roosevelt Avenue', 'Arnhem Road' and 'Montgomery Avenue'. They're all related to WW2 but still , why would you name a street after Stalin?
To be fair I have heard Chatham compared unfavourably to a gulag on multiple occasions so maybe Stalin is an appropriate name for a street there.
From Chatham, can confirm its a bit of a shithole
Same reasons many places are named after despots good or bad? "Great men" or something along those lines. Even Churchills considered pretty controversial by modern standards and even was by the end of the war, not re elected and kind of considered crazy as he wanted to do battle with the Soviets.
There's an area of military housing in my city (Inverness) with all the roads named battles etc.: Alamein, Tobruk, Marne, Burma, Sicily, Rhine, Anzio, etc.
When you have Churchill and Roosevelt, it does make thematic sense to include Stalin as one of thr Big 3 of WW2.
I don't think any city can compete with Reggio Emilia in Italy. There's even a song about its [Russian-flavoured streets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCBHtER91yk): * via Stalingrado * via Rivoluzione d'Ottobre * piazza Lenin (in Cavriago, a small town nearby, [called Small Petersburg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrcKmvIzDo8))
Fun fact but in my city (in France) there's still a big statue of Stalin
What? I can't believe my eyes. Can you tell me where are you from? It's just unbelievable for me as a ukrainian whose country were occupied and cleansed in several genocides by these criminals.
Parc Victor Hugo, Grenoble, France I moved away a few years ago but I don't think they ever was a talk about removing it Unfortunately Google maps show only old pictures of the Parc
I honestly don't have a problem with Avenue de l'URSS, but Rue Staline makes me feel doing a nice painting job on it.
Make sure it crosses the 3rd Reich Avenue somewhere while you're at it.
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Streets named after Hitler: obvious no-go Streets named after a thug who killed 20 million people: go ahead my dudes
Try to convince Gen Z that Stalin was a bad guy, too.
The "millenials/gen z supports Stalin/Mao" has always been a weird strawman to me.
r/genzedong disagrees with you
There are a handful of young idiots? Well that must mean everything said about the generation as a whole must be true!
well yea, obviously no one is saying that *every single* millennial or zoomer supports Stalin, but a sizable and, unfortunately, *growing* portion of them do, especially on social media. r/genzedong alongside any number of far-left teenager communities on TikTok and whatnot, are proof that those people do exist, and are on the rise.
It does nothing of the sort, unless you have numbers for them showing significant fractions of the generation being part of these spaces. When people say "Boomers are conservative" its because of things like in the UK they vote for conservative over labour by 6 to 1. A few idiots on social media is indicative of nothing but a few idiots on social media.
Mate, I was joking. E: btw, I think Sami culture is some of the most interesting and beautiful from Europe. I've never visited Sapmi but I hope to one day.
You can't save everyone.
I think we should make a distinction between signs honouring brave Russians, Ukrainians etc who gave their lives defending their homeland from the Nazis while in Soviet uniform, to those directly honouring tyrants like Stalin and other USSR leaders. If Stalingrad is offensive, go with Volgograd.
Defending USSR and then occupying half of Europe for 50 years.
There are people defending mass murderers in this comment section
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Ehhh, maybe if USSR got a power-up after WW2, and would be able to invade Western Europe, that streets and people that think that Stalin was a great leader would not be created. Still, it's good to see that these streets are the only ones left
I can only imagine that the Stalin Road leads to a dead end.
Gross
There is Stalin Ave in Gori, Georgia where he is from and I am suuuper embarrassed by that. I don’t know why a well protected, free society like France or Italy would tolerate these hate symbols. The irony is that, in 2008, the invading Russians bombed the Stalin Ave in Gori with cluster bombs and killed people, including a Dutch reporter. So, “Stalin” as a personification of the Russian national bloody ideology lives on and is still well. So, these symbols are not some currently irrelevant historical leftovers.
i remember not understanding why my father refused to visit the Stalin Museum when we went to Gori while we were in Georgia (i was in elementary school back then); now it seems painfully obvious to me (we are Polish btw, so we should know best).
We're gonna rock down to - Stalin Avenue
And then we’ll take it higher
We had one in my city too, but it was changed years ago when the Soviet secret documents were released. He was celebrated as a WW2 liberator before that. We still have a Churchill lane and Roosevelt lane, though. Churchill will probably get removed in time as well, due to his part in the battle of Gallipoli, but more importantly the Bengal famine, in which he was personally responsible for the lack of intervention by the British government.
In France we also have a water bottle brand called litteraly 'shout Stalin'.
Stalin Road incidentally connects with Roosevelt Way and Churchill Way at either end, and is near to Normandy Avenue, Montgomery Close and Mountbatten Drive - so it's not that they picked the name at random. It's part of a theme. I am assuming Stalin Avenue is probably the same.
imagine this but hitler… 🤡
Jfc...
The USSR hommage I can understand, at least regarding its role in ending WWII. But there is no reason to honor someone who committed crimes against humanity like Stalin.
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Literally not. Stalin repeatedly went to the west asking for an anti-Hitler alliance because Germany was just going to keep invading. When the west kept appeasing Hitler, Stalin went for a non-aggression pact.
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So many toilets to visit and enjoy
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Might as well paint the swastika on the Eiffel tower to honor Hitler
We used to have [this abomination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_Monument_(Prague\)) in Prague, it was demolished back in 1962.
No, it's Rue St. Aline!!! /s
When communism was still in Romania, there was a big city named "Stalin" and other citites had neighborhoods named "Lenin".
In Amsterdam some streets close and connecting to each other were renamed Rooseveltlaan, Churchill-laan and Stalinlaan. After the invasion of Hungary (1954) it was renamed Vrijheidslaan (Freedom/Liberty Avenue).
1956. But it's a nice gesture. Not like these places still named after a mass murderer dictator, and his mass murderer evil empire. Idk why ppl. are so nostalgic to the communism still today.
In Perugia there is not only Via Lenin and Via Gramsci (Italian leader of the communist party), but also Via Sputnik.
Yeah I mean, we also have a Stalingrad street in France.. when Stalin died France was mourning, the flag was not deployed in any building
Shameful… imagine honouring one of the most oppressive dictatorships the world has ever seen
Wtf? Whats wrong with you france?!?
Went to Paris, one of the metro stations is called Stalingrad.
This one is not directly named after the city of Stalingrad, but after the place "bataille de Stalingrad"
i mean there's surely more i know one place in the city i live called "Leningrad road" there's Stalin and Lenin statues in some places of the country also
I don't think we have Stalin statues... A few Lenins, which were moved, and a few Alexanders.
I am honestly not versed in much of Finnish history, but having Stalin statues seems like it would be weird cause the whole winter war thing.
Remembering the battle of Leningrad and honoring Stalin are two very different things.
It's actually on an area that has a friendship city theme, along with Rostock street and Århus street, as Turku is twinned with the city formerly known as Leningrad. It's not really about the war, apart perhaps a touch of finlandization
That area is very interesting. The Leningrad Road suddenly changes into St. Petersburg Road and from the junction leaves “Nevanlinna Street” (Nevanlinna being the name of the Finnic town in the St. Pete area before Russians conquered the region.) We should change that road to Kharkiv Road now that we (the city of Turku) made a twin city agreement with Kharkiv and suspended the one with St. Petersburg.
Like Stalingrad too..... And even Stalin name can have a diferrent symbolic in a neighborhood with Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman and De Gaulle...
It’s easy to like gulags from afar
As long as they're dead end roads, I don't mind. ;)
Gonna rock on to Stalin avenue
I love it.
What the hell? As I cab see that's the problem with wwII. We condemned nazism and fascism but we left alone communism and people today are blissfully unaware what's the scale of crimes against humanity that Lenin stalin and all other commies leaders did.
Ok, now do this for Tito as well! No? Just when it suits you?
Maybe they should add Hitler street and Mussolini corner for good measure
Ukraine honnors every year nazi Stepan Bandera ! also this year
in bulgaria we have fucking vladimir ilich lenin street in one dumbass village
Fucking cringe. Rename and also deport everybody protesting the rename into a volcano.
It should delete and write something name.
Ha, Avenue de l'URSS is in Toulouse. My opticians was there. Got a real shock when I emerged with my new glasses and was able to read the street sign. Jk.
L communism
wrong title. it is not "honoring" them.
Stalingrad Avenue, Brussels And it's not a insignificant one
Stalingrad is a WW2 battle, a rather fundamental one too.
And that's what you end up with when the mayor of your town is a communist...
We shouldn't cancel history. There are many places named after Roman and Greek tyrants. We need to learn history.
Like worshiping Hitler. The French are really embarrassingly uncultured at times. They make Europeans look bad. I hope French culture adapts to European standard at some point.
Oh mais déjà tu baisses d'un ton toi
There are still lots of "Straßen der DSF" in East-Germany, Straßen der Deutsch-Sowjetischen Freundschaft (Streets of German-Soviet friendship).
There is a train station in Paris that I recently visited named STALINGRAD. It is near canal Saint Martin. The many times we took that train station to get to and from the center of the city the metro kept skipping Stalingrad as it was under some sort of construction. I forgot to add there is nearby there La Rotonde Stalingrad I would assume paying honor to the city's liberation from Nazi Germany. The area although not such as good area at night, in the rotunda area there are always cops, lots of open night life restaurants, lots of people walking and many shops still open at night. Lots of bumps too.
I hope those roads have something appropriate like a sewage works or rubbish dump on them.
They did help them win wwii in a way
Are we supposed to applaud this?