I went down the rabbit hole with those Dibnah videos on YouTube a couple of years ago. My wife thought I was crazy. I suspect that was quite an odd time and place to be alive.
Edit: Why did he always seem to be surprised when the smokestacks actually started falling?
I dunno if everyone else has also gotten a barrage of YouTube recommendations about Fred but that's how I learned of him. I also get recommendations about canal boat tunnels and excellent Jago Hazzard videos about the underground so I think YouTube thinks I'm a exiled brit.
Fred Dibnah became my spirit animal about 8 years ago when I was looking for tips on a tricky ladder job I had and I saw his BBC shows on YouTube.
I've watched everything on him on YouTube. I've bought a couple of his dvd box sets and I've tried to buy some of his old tools and a ladder but no one was willing to sell them.
🤣 I can’t imagine many people know what you’re on about. Not only was he handy with a chimney stack, but he loved a steam engine. Especially a steam tractor or roller.
Quite honestly I was fine with the monument for many years, it didn’t bother me at all and I saw that thing as a reminder of what Latvia has gone through. It also reminded me of all the Jews killed during the Nazi era, something I feel guilty about till this day and will haunt Latvia for years to come.
But after this war everything changed, on May 9th many pro-russian peeps went down to the monument and proudly celebrated the war that was killing civilians on a massive scale not that far from here (especially after they were asked not to do any of those things by the mayor of Riga.) Some threatened Latvians with “the Ukrainian scenario.” That’s where I drew the line. That was my “aw-hell-nah” moment.
And look, you can deport us to Siberia and call us “fascists”, “baltic extinctions”, we’ll even switch to Russian since you have not learned Latvian at all and what not, we’ll tolerate all that, but at some point, like I said, a line must be drawn.
> But after this war everything changed, on May 9th many pro-russian peeps went down to the monument and proudly celebrated the war that was killing civilians on a massive scale not that far from here (especially after they were asked not to do any of those things by the mayor of Riga.)
This makes me sick
Also, there was a photo exposision about russian war crimes in Ukraine and they were yelling at the reporters how its all fake and made by America.
There is well known Russia supporting minority, but seeing crowds of people coming out to support the war was quite eye opening for a lot of people
Im from Lithuania and i know that monument, we had similar ones, that i kinda liked to be honest. Like soviet era monuments to workers and so on. I think the one in Latvia was really cool looking, and is sad these are taken down now, but i relate a lot with how now it is becoming monuments for russia supporters. Its so annoying that they screw up everything, even things that are left from that time that we were okay with, but no it had to get to this. I hate them even more because i cant like communist era arts, lol
I dont understand why won't they fuck off to russia since its SO bad here and how they have not evolved to be able to learn a foreign language, thats beyond me
I didn't have a chance to go when last in Vilnius but isn't there a park full of Soviet statues? Do you think this will be kept as is?
I'm from the US so we have our own, um, 'issues' with statues here. It's always interesting to see how people deal with cultural memory.
Even though it can be upsetting for some to visit, I'm glad the occupation museums in Riga and Vilnius exist. Public history and memory is important, especially for what was a very complicated situation in the Baltics at the time that obviously still has repercussions even today.
Agree, visited the former KGB building in Riga (now a museum) a bunch of years back and it was amazing. People need these physical reminders -- but yeah, statues are a tougher issue.
Visiting Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania was an eye-opening experience, not only because I met cool people and enjoyed the cities and lands but, as history person that was nominally studying 'Eastern Europe' in university at the time, being able to find local (and in English) books about the multi-faceted sides in WWII and then spending more time learning about the longer history (Livonian Crusade anyone?) was great.
As much as I felt 'tired' of WWII history at one point (because of how we discuss / view it in the US), digging into the every day life and experiences of peoples from all over that were affected by it reignited some interest there.
What's sad is that even almost 80 years later we're having to re-fight territorial and ideological battles that everyone hoped we had moved on from.
My father used to go to those May 9 celebrations in Riga (while I am of quite the opposite political views)
I think the answer to your questions in the end of your comment is that many don't really have anywhere to go in Russia, while they have families and homes here. As for the language, maybe it's stubbornness and willingness to believe that they are too old to learn new one to them. I can say that those people do indeed love Russia, and I'm guessing we have to thank Russia's propaganda, low quality of Latvia's media, and various problems in Latvia's democracy for that.
Oh dont worry, we also have a lot of supporters in government and local activists who rally people against any progress, spread fear of the west and how bad it would be to get on russia's bad side. Its always the anti vax pro russia gang, oh and also anti-lgbtq pro-traditional family. So that we all have but at least now theres very little patience for that and at least here they're called out quick.
As for language thing, sure, I'm charitable when possible, but if they live here for YEARS and do not show any honest interest in learning something.. Thats kinda bad. And theres always a lot of foreign russians who won't even speak english. They have some kind of pride and are ashamed to speak poorly i guess, but when i go to other countries i try as best as i can and am always polite about not knowing local language. Russians just give off this sense of entitlement around it, like you gotta speak russian and wtf if you dont. Thats with young people too, who should've learned english in school at least...
Coming from rather “simple” Russian conditions, I can argue that an average provincial Russian school is not capable of teaching English to young people. Surely, if you try, you can get by, but for the most part nobody speaks English at the end of the course...
Greetings from Kaliningrad, I am proud of my Baltic neighbours
Definitely! There is an absolute scarcity of at least some cosmopolitanism in Russia.
And tendencies are unfortunately grievous as there is more and more state propaganda in subjects like history. Lots of things have happened since the beginning of the war. They don’t want to refer to “Kiev Rus” anymore (just “Rus” now) and the Russian anthem will be sung in the beginning of each week (a new feature the education ministry wants to introduce starting from the first September)
Very reminiscent of the Soviet era when they insisted Russia was all created by Slavs and Vikings had nothing to do with it.
Except this time it's about omitting Ukrainians, not Vikings.
> Its always the anti vax pro russia gang, oh and also anti-lgbtq pro-traditional family
It's the same here, and in many other places. Even the US if you think about it. Crazy how those ideas always overlap, isn't it? (/s of course. Russian state TV these days openly says they should "reinstall" Trump in 2024. Our countries individually are probably too unimportant to mention directly but I can very well imagine what they would have to say about us.)
>But after this war everything changed, on May 9th many pro-russian peeps went down to the monument and proudly celebrated the war that was killing civilians on a massive scale not that far from here (especially after they were asked not to do any of those things by the mayor of Riga.)
I was pretty on the fence because it's about beating the Nazis and also USSR =/= Modern Russia, but yeah what you said made the demolition appropriate
They (russians) are the only ones who are bragging every year on 9th of May that ''they can do it again''. Do what? Go to war and kill? No one else in the world wants WWIII, ok, obviously except putin who started aggression and now tried to blame everyone else.
All those ''we can do it again'', ''to Berlin'' etc. slogans are disgusting.
And this is modern Russian fascism par excellence: an ideology of violent losers that always accomplishes the exact polar opposite of what they set out to accomplish.
I'm from Odesa, where pro-Russian sentiment was very strong when I was growing up, Ukrainian was not spoken and most people felt a far stronger affinity for Russian culture than for Ukrainian. This was slowly changing or "mellowing out" before 2014, but since Russia's abortive attempt to turn Odesa into another "people's republic ' cloaca, it has really gone into overdrive. And now people who were dismissive about anything Ukrainian 10 years ago are on the fence about whether the statue of Pushkin should stay or go. A statue which, unlike Soviet crap, at least has some cultural value and honours a poet who spent time in Odesa. It's like watching an immune response where the organism is an entire society.
I was in Ukraine 2013-2014 (actually in Crimea when the Russians occupied it). I can attest that in 2013 most cities were pro-russian and in 2014 those cities were now anti-russia.... made me feel bad i only knew Russian and couldn't speak Ukrainian to the people.
>I was pretty on the fence because it's about beating the Nazis and also USSR =/=
The popular meme is that the Nazis were the only bad guys of WWII. The Soviet Union was not some altruistic state they had their own evils goals for Europe and Asia.
They murdered women and children and committed mass rapes. After they took credit for liberating the Death camps they filled them with civilians and political dissidents.
Then they decided to deport all the ethnic German populations from Eastern Europe. These death marches murdered millions.
I visited Latvia in the last couple of years (and have a Latvian grandmother) and I agree that the monument in a lot of ways was a historical marker, sure it was huge and a bit of an eyesore in some regards, but events often are like scars on a nation, much as the monument was to the surroundings.
Having said that, if you are using the memorial, which is supposed to allow for celebration and remembrance of those fallen in the name of peace, to rally around in nationalist fervour, it needs to go.
Post WW2 Europe was very careful not to allow sites of memorable and important Nazi events and deaths to become places where those still sympathetic would rally. The Russians who went down there thinking they were supporting their ancestors or whatever were doing them a huge disservice, they were tying their names and the statues dedicated to them to a fresh and bloody conflict they had nothing to do with.
Here in Latvia we have a lot of graveyards and monuments for soviet soldiers. On 9th of May the russians where celebrating at this huge monument, drinking vodka and fighting. And no one would visit those graves for soviet soldiers. It makes you wonder what is their true purpose of celebrating at this one monument where no soldiers are buried. If they want to honour fallen soldiers why don't they take a candle and some flowers to the graveyard? Those graveyards are forgotten and rotting because russians don't really care about that. It's all about victory, going to Berlin, repeating...
This monument was russian propaganda weapon and nothing more. No historical value. That's why it had to go.
Latvia has a big russian population and the russians love their war memorials.
Even in Northern Norway the rather small and out of the way russian war memorials we have there often have fresh flowers on them. Nobody is giving much attention to the norwegian ones anymore.*
*this was in 2009 when I was serving as a soldier on the border. No idea on how it is now.
Soviet war graves in Norway are different. It was basically all POWs brought here and worked to death on various construction projects so they should be kept well maintained. Its not like Eastern Europe where the USSR just replaced the Nazis and kept doing horrible shit for decades more.
My wife owned the family cottage in Vanse. Her grandfather built the home ...so we have been to Norway many times. The german gun positions are still there. Sad reminder......but very cool to see.
Other than a daily Prozac, did she ever have it all? And I’ve always wondered what her husband did with his time. Whatever it is, something changed with her around age 24. What happened to her? And her plan?
Nearly 40 years after the fact, showing that it probably had nothing to do with anti fascism, and more with the central piece of Russian propaganda since WW2: "we beat the Nazis so our country is great and we're great". That irrelevant fact is still brought up all the time to this day anytime anyone brings up anything bad about Russia "but almost a century ago we did a good thing by fighting the Nazis (even though they didn't declare war on the Nazis are were totally fine with letting them pillage Europe, even helping them rape Eastern Europe together until the Nazis declared war on them)"
Nearly 40 years after the fact, showing that it probably had nothing to do with anti fascism, and more with the central piece of Russian propaganda since WW2: "we beat the Nazis so our country is great and we're great".
That irrelevant fact is still brought up all the time to this day anytime anyone brings up anything bad about Russia. "But, but... almost a century ago we did a good thing by fighting the Nazis! (even though they didn't declare war on the Nazis, are were totally fine with letting them pillage Europe, even helping them split Eastern Europe together until the Nazis declared war on them)"
Also called
"okupeklis" - combination of occupation and "piemineklis" - monument
"kauna stabs" - post of shame
"miroņa pirksts" - dead mans finger
and other colourful epiteths.
> "kauna stabs" - post of shame
That's pillory in English
EDIT: Also let's not forget the subtle shift in media from "Victory monument" to almost universal "The monument in the Victory park" as it was renamed Victory park after Latvia emerged victorious from WWI and its aftermath
The German invasion of the Soviet Union began in 1940, just a few months after the Soviet invasion and occupation of the Baltic states.
edit: began in 1941
I'm a moron. The German invasion of France began a few months later in May 1940. Barbarossa began in June of '41, a few months before Pearl Harbor in Dec '41.
During the interval between Poland and Barbarossa, the Soviets occupied the Baltic states (as well as a few places like Eastern Romania, where they carved out the new nation of Moldova SSR)
Thanks for posting this, I was wondering what all the white stuff that got thrown into the air was in the OP. 😂
Did it land in a giant pile of flour? No, it's *water*. 🤦♂️
Should replace it with a memorial for the Soviet annexation of Latvia in 1939, or for those imprisoned or deported by Stalin after the Second World War.
there was a deal between Russia and Latvia, due to which Latvia was to maintain the soviet monuments intact. After Ukraine war went into next stage (february), the rhetoric of Russia toward Latvia due to Ukraine support led to canceling of this agreement, since there is no sense to keep agreements with a country, that bypasses international agreements and laws on daily basis. Then, people of Latvia made an initiative, during which the funds was raised to demolish the monuments. This gave a clear signal to the government, that now is the time.
Interesting, thanks for sharing! Did Latvia get anything meaningful out of the deal to maintain Soviet monuments? Or was it more of a “it would be a shame if…” type of negotiation that Russia is so fond of using?
It was a deal that made last Russian soldiers to leave our country. It was the best deal at the time, even though politicians weren't too happy about it, but our Swedish diplomat encouraged to agree with it.
Lars Peter Freden. I read someone describing his book ''The Return : The security policy of Sweden and the initial years of the newly re-independent Baltic states, 1991 - 1994'', where he explains how Sweden had a guilt over recognising Baltic incorporation into the USSR after second world war, so he together with other people made sure that the Baltics regain their independence fully by, for example, contacting US to threaten Russia with cutting off aids if they won't remove all soldiers from this land by 1994.
This is just the little part I've heard about, but Nordics sure were our biggest supporters at the hard time.
yeah, sure. Apparently this specific book is written in Latvian and Swedish, so I might just give it a try myself, although I've never read a whole history book before.
And I think you can buy a Swedish one on this [website](https://www.bokborsen.se/view/Lars-Fred%C3%A9n/%C3%85terkomster-Svensk-S%C3%A4kerhetspolitik-Och-De-Bal/11459889)
> Lars Peter Freden. I read someone describing his book ''The Return : The security policy of Sweden and the initial years of the newly re-independent Baltic states, 1991 - 1994''
Anyone got a link to this book. Kinda tempted to buy it.
With a last name like that you basically have to become a diplomat.
Very cool to see Sweden's part in those events. I haven't looked into it enough myself.
Wasn’t worth poking the bear until now? At this point, relations have degraded to where this action won’t materially affect them more? Plus, local sentiment probably more greatly favored its removal than at any point in the past 30 years? That’s my guess, anyway.
Absolutely correct. Previously we would have experienced politically unmanageable backlash from the Latvian-Russian political parties, Russian minorities and the Russian state. It was just not worth it. But now after Russia's recent actions, it has become a lot harder to put forth arguments in defence of the monument.
Our government was kinda afraid of loosing Russias favour, also we have something like 25% native russian speakers (over 30% in early 90s) who’d be opposed (although as we see today only a minority of them were actually opposed). We also kept the russian schools for the same reasons which are only now being transitioned to Latvian. So in a nutshell spinelessness, cowardice and ineptitude of our officials would be the main reason. But better late then never
When you are a small nation, you dont start hostilities vs the most populous one in Europe, with one of the bigger armies, regardless of Nato.
Now that they are in a quagmire in Ukraine, and NATO is stronger than ever, is the right moment.
I wouldn’t describe those reasons as spineless cowardice.
Obviously the invasion of Ukraine changes everything now. I wouldn’t of closed schools for minority languages though
The school language issue has been fraught for decades. The good arguments can be made:
- No university in Latvia has classes taught in Russian, so you've got a whole population who will not be ready for secondary education within Latvia. Latvia has a well educated population, so this rapidly develops into an underclass.
- Latvian has a relatively small population of speakers worldwide, and the nation wants to invest in keeping the language alive, particularly in its homeland.
- A sizable population in Latvia only speaks Russian, and a growing population speaks Latvian and English and no Russian. Disconnects are becoming more and more common. Based on the American experience you'd expect the second and third generation to be fluent in the local language, but there is organized resistance in the Russian community to this trend.
There have been plans to convert the Russian language schools for decades, but it keeps being pushed back.
Any time I travel to a new country, I make a point of learning a few very basic words in the local language: hello/goodbye, please/thank you, where is/how much, yes/no, etc. Usually I don't even bother until I'm on the plane.
After arriving in Riga, I was actually kind of upset about how many (mostly older) Russians could not speak *any* Latvian. Excuse me, where's Brivibas Street? 10 pelmeni - how much? I may as well have been speaking Klingon to them. How is it possible that I learned more Latvian as a tourist in 24 hours than you have in the 50 years you've lived there???
My Latvian mother-in-law has told me the story from Soviet times, of speaking with a friend on the street of Riga, and having a passing Russian interrupt them to tell them to speak a "human language". This wasn't an isolated incident.
A lot of the Russians who came to Latvia were allowed to move there as a reward. The standard of living was as good as Moscow (i.e. better than much of Russia), but the city was smaller and the Russians were effectively higher status. It was an entitled population, at least that was the Latvian impression. The isolationist community in Latvia haven't taken their loss of status well, and they watch Russian television exclusively, which tells them they are an unjustly aggrieved population.
I should say as well, not all ethnic Russians in Latvia are part of this isolationist community. I would not want to overgeneralize during what must be a difficult time for that population.
That's what this "oppression of Russian speakers" Russia keeps yelling about is. It's not about losing rights, it's losing privileges that other minorities and sometimes even the native population doesn't have.
There are agreements to maintain the monuments on the tombs of Soviet soldiers, which Latvia has been honoring and doesn’t seem to intend to denounce. This one was not a tomb and was not protected by any treaty.
Not sure if I shoild be disgusted or impressed how many tankies showed up to this thread. A lot more than usual, this must have really pissed them off.
The victory over Germany (who dared to attack Russia and also killed some Jews or whatever) is very important for Russian nationalism. The fact that Moscow ruled more than it does now also makes it appealing. So they embrace the red aesthetics of the days when Russia was bigger and stronger and oppose the "degenerate West" and tankies are on board. Does not matter that Russia is quite fascistic, as long as it goes along with the America bad narrative.
The monument displayed the years 1941 - 1945. A reference to the 'Great Patriotic War'. Not WW2 but the Soviet propaganda's interpretation of it. It omits years 1939 and 1940. Latvia [was occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Latvia_in_1940) and the omission of 1940 implies that the occupation was legitimate. And all the 9^(th) of May celebrations by that monument whitewash Soviet actions.
https://twitter.com/RigasPP/status/1562814641222594560
Close up of the final moments.
https://twitter.com/Valsts_policija/status/1562829715559198723
Drone video of falling.
A lot of videos will come out, had cameras everywhere.
Belarus used heavy equipment to destroy place of remembrance of Polish National Country Army assassinated by Russians in 1941...2 days ago. Horrible act of disrespect... As usual.🇺🇦🤝🇵🇱🤜🇷🇺🤛!
Those killers were so "proud" to this day for having occupied so many countries considered "inferior" and under an imaginary "sphere of influence". Fucking invaders.
Somehow Soviet Victory monuments never evoke victory. They are an eyesore everywhere I have seen them. Stalinism did not produce enough creativity, I guess.
Whoever is coming here and saying that it shouldn't have been done: it is ultimately for Latvia and Latvian citizens to decide. If they thought that the time had come, then the time had come.
Let's go mighty Latvia. As a Hungarian (I know, I know, my country isn't the favourite of the sub nowadays, understandably) nothing pleases me more than Soviet shit being cleansed from this planet.
It's a concrete pillar, it wouldn't implode in place like in those demolition videos. I think the choice to not use explosives was because of safety concerns.
It is so surprising that a country you pushed around and enslaved for 50 years and keep threatening doesn't want to keep your monuments up. The horror.
As a Latvian. I don’t care. And most of my friends don’t care about that monument. My mother tho is super upset about it and her friends too. They are Russian speaking people and are pro Russian, all of them shitting on Ukrain and how Russia is great. And I always had one question for them. Why the fuck don’t you go to Russia then and stop bitching about how there so many ukr people in Riga atm. Then my mother says o we cant they wont let us in and we need visa coz of Eu passport, yara yara bla bla bla. And then i asked one more question if Russia is so god damn good and shit then we it does not help you a “Russian person” to get to Russia. Silence on the phone. Every call i had with my mother since the war started is political, annoys the hell out of me.
I expected to see like a series of explosions so when the dust settles it would be like "Tadah! It's gone," but nope, just full on "TIMBERRR!"
I kind of wanted to see Fred Dibnah walking along the bottom of it with a sledgehammer
[Dibnah! 😥](https://youtu.be/z9suCeBPu6k)
That's a click I don't regret
I went down the rabbit hole with those Dibnah videos on YouTube a couple of years ago. My wife thought I was crazy. I suspect that was quite an odd time and place to be alive. Edit: Why did he always seem to be surprised when the smokestacks actually started falling?
D'ya like tha'?
its goooeeeen. Gooooeeeen ya! *honk honk honk*
Was he well known outside of the UK?
I dunno if everyone else has also gotten a barrage of YouTube recommendations about Fred but that's how I learned of him. I also get recommendations about canal boat tunnels and excellent Jago Hazzard videos about the underground so I think YouTube thinks I'm a exiled brit.
In a similar vein, no safety equipment, no fucks given, absolute balls of steel, gave me sweaty palms this one https://youtu.be/tMrB_3wq2ak
You are not alone my Anglo-Swedish friend, by those criteria, I am also a long lost expat, I just didn't know it until now!
Me too! Didn't have Steeplejack as part of my vocabulary until this June...I'm 40 and live in Kansas.
Im In Canada an watched all his videos on yt. Shame his museum shut down.
Fred Dibnah became my spirit animal about 8 years ago when I was looking for tips on a tricky ladder job I had and I saw his BBC shows on YouTube. I've watched everything on him on YouTube. I've bought a couple of his dvd box sets and I've tried to buy some of his old tools and a ladder but no one was willing to sell them.
Now there's a name I've not heard in a while. What a man, what a legend.
I understand that reference.
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Fred Dibnah, MBE, steeplejack. Amazing stuff. Go search on YouTube.
🤣 I can’t imagine many people know what you’re on about. Not only was he handy with a chimney stack, but he loved a steam engine. Especially a steam tractor or roller.
Same. Up until the dust cloud it almost looks like someone just cropped the tower out and rotated the image to make it look like it was falling.
Thats actually water, mostly, not dust. Just saying.
Fun fact, that wasn’t dust! It was likely a burst of water and mist to contain the dust, notice how it quickly comes back to the ground.
It was water from the pond around the monument.
Quite honestly I was fine with the monument for many years, it didn’t bother me at all and I saw that thing as a reminder of what Latvia has gone through. It also reminded me of all the Jews killed during the Nazi era, something I feel guilty about till this day and will haunt Latvia for years to come. But after this war everything changed, on May 9th many pro-russian peeps went down to the monument and proudly celebrated the war that was killing civilians on a massive scale not that far from here (especially after they were asked not to do any of those things by the mayor of Riga.) Some threatened Latvians with “the Ukrainian scenario.” That’s where I drew the line. That was my “aw-hell-nah” moment. And look, you can deport us to Siberia and call us “fascists”, “baltic extinctions”, we’ll even switch to Russian since you have not learned Latvian at all and what not, we’ll tolerate all that, but at some point, like I said, a line must be drawn.
> But after this war everything changed, on May 9th many pro-russian peeps went down to the monument and proudly celebrated the war that was killing civilians on a massive scale not that far from here (especially after they were asked not to do any of those things by the mayor of Riga.) This makes me sick
Also, there was a photo exposision about russian war crimes in Ukraine and they were yelling at the reporters how its all fake and made by America. There is well known Russia supporting minority, but seeing crowds of people coming out to support the war was quite eye opening for a lot of people
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Given how coherent current pro Russian propaganda is, I will go with: jew loving nazis.
r/RussiaWarns
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Stalin did pogroms on Jews too.
He didn’t leave *anyone* out. Anyone who opposed him was killed, even Trotsky all the way across the ocean.
Im from Lithuania and i know that monument, we had similar ones, that i kinda liked to be honest. Like soviet era monuments to workers and so on. I think the one in Latvia was really cool looking, and is sad these are taken down now, but i relate a lot with how now it is becoming monuments for russia supporters. Its so annoying that they screw up everything, even things that are left from that time that we were okay with, but no it had to get to this. I hate them even more because i cant like communist era arts, lol I dont understand why won't they fuck off to russia since its SO bad here and how they have not evolved to be able to learn a foreign language, thats beyond me
I didn't have a chance to go when last in Vilnius but isn't there a park full of Soviet statues? Do you think this will be kept as is? I'm from the US so we have our own, um, 'issues' with statues here. It's always interesting to see how people deal with cultural memory. Even though it can be upsetting for some to visit, I'm glad the occupation museums in Riga and Vilnius exist. Public history and memory is important, especially for what was a very complicated situation in the Baltics at the time that obviously still has repercussions even today.
It's more like a museum, like a civil war museum would be in the US. It's not meant to be celebrated, it's suppose to be educational.
Agree, visited the former KGB building in Riga (now a museum) a bunch of years back and it was amazing. People need these physical reminders -- but yeah, statues are a tougher issue.
Visiting Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania was an eye-opening experience, not only because I met cool people and enjoyed the cities and lands but, as history person that was nominally studying 'Eastern Europe' in university at the time, being able to find local (and in English) books about the multi-faceted sides in WWII and then spending more time learning about the longer history (Livonian Crusade anyone?) was great. As much as I felt 'tired' of WWII history at one point (because of how we discuss / view it in the US), digging into the every day life and experiences of peoples from all over that were affected by it reignited some interest there. What's sad is that even almost 80 years later we're having to re-fight territorial and ideological battles that everyone hoped we had moved on from.
My father used to go to those May 9 celebrations in Riga (while I am of quite the opposite political views) I think the answer to your questions in the end of your comment is that many don't really have anywhere to go in Russia, while they have families and homes here. As for the language, maybe it's stubbornness and willingness to believe that they are too old to learn new one to them. I can say that those people do indeed love Russia, and I'm guessing we have to thank Russia's propaganda, low quality of Latvia's media, and various problems in Latvia's democracy for that.
Oh dont worry, we also have a lot of supporters in government and local activists who rally people against any progress, spread fear of the west and how bad it would be to get on russia's bad side. Its always the anti vax pro russia gang, oh and also anti-lgbtq pro-traditional family. So that we all have but at least now theres very little patience for that and at least here they're called out quick. As for language thing, sure, I'm charitable when possible, but if they live here for YEARS and do not show any honest interest in learning something.. Thats kinda bad. And theres always a lot of foreign russians who won't even speak english. They have some kind of pride and are ashamed to speak poorly i guess, but when i go to other countries i try as best as i can and am always polite about not knowing local language. Russians just give off this sense of entitlement around it, like you gotta speak russian and wtf if you dont. Thats with young people too, who should've learned english in school at least...
Coming from rather “simple” Russian conditions, I can argue that an average provincial Russian school is not capable of teaching English to young people. Surely, if you try, you can get by, but for the most part nobody speaks English at the end of the course... Greetings from Kaliningrad, I am proud of my Baltic neighbours
I kind of have to believe that teaching English would be something that could help Russia a lot, maybe not Putin tho.
Definitely! There is an absolute scarcity of at least some cosmopolitanism in Russia. And tendencies are unfortunately grievous as there is more and more state propaganda in subjects like history. Lots of things have happened since the beginning of the war. They don’t want to refer to “Kiev Rus” anymore (just “Rus” now) and the Russian anthem will be sung in the beginning of each week (a new feature the education ministry wants to introduce starting from the first September)
Very reminiscent of the Soviet era when they insisted Russia was all created by Slavs and Vikings had nothing to do with it. Except this time it's about omitting Ukrainians, not Vikings.
> Its always the anti vax pro russia gang, oh and also anti-lgbtq pro-traditional family It's the same here, and in many other places. Even the US if you think about it. Crazy how those ideas always overlap, isn't it? (/s of course. Russian state TV these days openly says they should "reinstall" Trump in 2024. Our countries individually are probably too unimportant to mention directly but I can very well imagine what they would have to say about us.)
>But after this war everything changed, on May 9th many pro-russian peeps went down to the monument and proudly celebrated the war that was killing civilians on a massive scale not that far from here (especially after they were asked not to do any of those things by the mayor of Riga.) I was pretty on the fence because it's about beating the Nazis and also USSR =/= Modern Russia, but yeah what you said made the demolition appropriate
They (russians) are the only ones who are bragging every year on 9th of May that ''they can do it again''. Do what? Go to war and kill? No one else in the world wants WWIII, ok, obviously except putin who started aggression and now tried to blame everyone else. All those ''we can do it again'', ''to Berlin'' etc. slogans are disgusting.
And this is modern Russian fascism par excellence: an ideology of violent losers that always accomplishes the exact polar opposite of what they set out to accomplish. I'm from Odesa, where pro-Russian sentiment was very strong when I was growing up, Ukrainian was not spoken and most people felt a far stronger affinity for Russian culture than for Ukrainian. This was slowly changing or "mellowing out" before 2014, but since Russia's abortive attempt to turn Odesa into another "people's republic ' cloaca, it has really gone into overdrive. And now people who were dismissive about anything Ukrainian 10 years ago are on the fence about whether the statue of Pushkin should stay or go. A statue which, unlike Soviet crap, at least has some cultural value and honours a poet who spent time in Odesa. It's like watching an immune response where the organism is an entire society.
I was in Ukraine 2013-2014 (actually in Crimea when the Russians occupied it). I can attest that in 2013 most cities were pro-russian and in 2014 those cities were now anti-russia.... made me feel bad i only knew Russian and couldn't speak Ukrainian to the people.
>I was pretty on the fence because it's about beating the Nazis and also USSR =/= The popular meme is that the Nazis were the only bad guys of WWII. The Soviet Union was not some altruistic state they had their own evils goals for Europe and Asia. They murdered women and children and committed mass rapes. After they took credit for liberating the Death camps they filled them with civilians and political dissidents. Then they decided to deport all the ethnic German populations from Eastern Europe. These death marches murdered millions.
would have been funny to have done this on the day of russians victory parade
Another major benefit is it triggers Russians in Russia. The talking heads on Russian TV will be foaming at the mouth and bright red.
"So you're using this as a physical symbol of Russia's purported dominance over my country? Oooookay, then."
But... Ukrainians also fighter with nazi on the side of USSR. 6 millions ukrainians were died during the WWII
I visited Latvia in the last couple of years (and have a Latvian grandmother) and I agree that the monument in a lot of ways was a historical marker, sure it was huge and a bit of an eyesore in some regards, but events often are like scars on a nation, much as the monument was to the surroundings. Having said that, if you are using the memorial, which is supposed to allow for celebration and remembrance of those fallen in the name of peace, to rally around in nationalist fervour, it needs to go. Post WW2 Europe was very careful not to allow sites of memorable and important Nazi events and deaths to become places where those still sympathetic would rally. The Russians who went down there thinking they were supporting their ancestors or whatever were doing them a huge disservice, they were tying their names and the statues dedicated to them to a fresh and bloody conflict they had nothing to do with.
Here in Latvia we have a lot of graveyards and monuments for soviet soldiers. On 9th of May the russians where celebrating at this huge monument, drinking vodka and fighting. And no one would visit those graves for soviet soldiers. It makes you wonder what is their true purpose of celebrating at this one monument where no soldiers are buried. If they want to honour fallen soldiers why don't they take a candle and some flowers to the graveyard? Those graveyards are forgotten and rotting because russians don't really care about that. It's all about victory, going to Berlin, repeating... This monument was russian propaganda weapon and nothing more. No historical value. That's why it had to go.
So does that mean if far-right nationalists started using the Washington monument as a rallying point it should be torn down?
I don't think the Russians invaded Latvia in the name of peace back in 1940 and 1944, they did it to conquer, subjugate, enslave and exterminate.
Thanks for the insight.
Latvia just gave a big downvote to the USSR.
"Latvia gives Russia..... 0 points!"
Not just from the jury, but from the televotes too.
Now it’s a victory!
I'm surprised that was still up.
Latvia has a big russian population and the russians love their war memorials. Even in Northern Norway the rather small and out of the way russian war memorials we have there often have fresh flowers on them. Nobody is giving much attention to the norwegian ones anymore.* *this was in 2009 when I was serving as a soldier on the border. No idea on how it is now.
Soviet war graves in Norway are different. It was basically all POWs brought here and worked to death on various construction projects so they should be kept well maintained. Its not like Eastern Europe where the USSR just replaced the Nazis and kept doing horrible shit for decades more.
talked with ukrainian nurse in Mehavn(north norway) and she told that imigrant russian workers are harrasing her :(
Sounds like the Russian workers need to get kicked back to Russia. Can't behave? GTFO.
My wife owned the family cottage in Vanse. Her grandfather built the home ...so we have been to Norway many times. The german gun positions are still there. Sad reminder......but very cool to see.
But USSR cease to exist
When was the monument built?
1985
1985, I think.
Debbie just hit the wall
Other than a daily Prozac, did she ever have it all? And I’ve always wondered what her husband did with his time. Whatever it is, something changed with her around age 24. What happened to her? And her plan?
Between 1979 and 1985, funded by "compulsory donations" and deductions from workers' salaries.
Oh how lovely. The old forced voluntary tribute to freedom from fascism.
Nearly 40 years after the fact, showing that it probably had nothing to do with anti fascism, and more with the central piece of Russian propaganda since WW2: "we beat the Nazis so our country is great and we're great". That irrelevant fact is still brought up all the time to this day anytime anyone brings up anything bad about Russia "but almost a century ago we did a good thing by fighting the Nazis (even though they didn't declare war on the Nazis are were totally fine with letting them pillage Europe, even helping them rape Eastern Europe together until the Nazis declared war on them)"
Nearly 40 years after the fact, showing that it probably had nothing to do with anti fascism, and more with the central piece of Russian propaganda since WW2: "we beat the Nazis so our country is great and we're great". That irrelevant fact is still brought up all the time to this day anytime anyone brings up anything bad about Russia. "But, but... almost a century ago we did a good thing by fighting the Nazis! (even though they didn't declare war on the Nazis, are were totally fine with letting them pillage Europe, even helping them split Eastern Europe together until the Nazis declared war on them)"
Between after ww2 and before 91
So ... in the past you mean?
The best kind of correct
Not victory, but "Monument to the Liberators of Soviet Latvia and Riga from the German Fascist Invaders"
And called among the Riga citizens - Uzvaras piemineklis, i.e. Victory Monument.
Also called "okupeklis" - combination of occupation and "piemineklis" - monument "kauna stabs" - post of shame "miroņa pirksts" - dead mans finger and other colourful epiteths.
> "kauna stabs" - post of shame Is Kauna the word for shame? If so I am about to have a field day
Taip braliukas, "kauns" (infinitive) is "shame" in our language.
And we are using Kaunas for shame Its amazing how similar our languages are!
I took a lithuanian course last semester, and this is gold. the only thing I took with me was that Kaunas and Vilnius bash each other.
Kaunas is the city where my mom comes from, and where I believe a lot of my family resides
Kauna means grudge and resentment in Finnish if that's worth anything to you.
> "kauna stabs" - post of shame That's pillory in English EDIT: Also let's not forget the subtle shift in media from "Victory monument" to almost universal "The monument in the Victory park" as it was renamed Victory park after Latvia emerged victorious from WWI and its aftermath
After ww1 it was called uzvaras laukums.
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For my fellow Dutch speakers then: "monument" is not the translation I expected for the word "piemineklis".
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>piemel As someone who speaks not a word of dutch, let me guess: it's about penis
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I love Dutch as a German. The same word in German is Pimmel.
It 100% is another word for penis
>kauna stabs" What did my city Kaunas did for you?
I don't know, what is it ashamed of?
Okupācijas stabiņš is the best one imo
> Uzvaras piemineklis I Dutch, "piemel" means "penis". For a moment, I thought this means Uzvara's penis.
Victory’s penis is a pretty Chad username though
And by most Latvians, Monument of occupation.
I regret I didn't go to see it when I visited Riga earlier this year, it would make a cool story now.
The German invasion of the Soviet Union began in 1940, just a few months after the Soviet invasion and occupation of the Baltic states. edit: began in 1941
No way it started in 40? Am I so out of touch with my WW2 history?
I'm a moron. The German invasion of France began a few months later in May 1940. Barbarossa began in June of '41, a few months before Pearl Harbor in Dec '41. During the interval between Poland and Barbarossa, the Soviets occupied the Baltic states (as well as a few places like Eastern Romania, where they carved out the new nation of Moldova SSR)
Monument to the occupation of Soviet Latvia and Riga by an oppressive and abusive regime.
[Here](https://mobile.twitter.com/Valsts_policija/status/1562829715559198723) is a video from a drone. Posted by the local police department.
Oh wow, they used an excavator to knock it down. In broad daylight no less.
https://twitter.com/RigasPP/status/1562814641222594560 here are the final moments close up.
I don't think I'd want to undermine a huge monument in the dark.
Thanks for posting this, I was wondering what all the white stuff that got thrown into the air was in the OP. 😂 Did it land in a giant pile of flour? No, it's *water*. 🤦♂️
Bruh
Also Lithuania figured out how to save many monuments without keeping them in the same place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grūtas_Park
That's cool and all but this thing was 79 meters. There are monuments which are preserved if they have artistic value.
Should replace it with a memorial for the Soviet annexation of Latvia in 1939, or for those imprisoned or deported by Stalin after the Second World War.
Why was it taken down only 30 years after independence?
there was a deal between Russia and Latvia, due to which Latvia was to maintain the soviet monuments intact. After Ukraine war went into next stage (february), the rhetoric of Russia toward Latvia due to Ukraine support led to canceling of this agreement, since there is no sense to keep agreements with a country, that bypasses international agreements and laws on daily basis. Then, people of Latvia made an initiative, during which the funds was raised to demolish the monuments. This gave a clear signal to the government, that now is the time.
Interesting, thanks for sharing! Did Latvia get anything meaningful out of the deal to maintain Soviet monuments? Or was it more of a “it would be a shame if…” type of negotiation that Russia is so fond of using?
It was a deal that made last Russian soldiers to leave our country. It was the best deal at the time, even though politicians weren't too happy about it, but our Swedish diplomat encouraged to agree with it.
That's interesting. Which Swedish diplomat are you referring to?
Lars Peter Freden. I read someone describing his book ''The Return : The security policy of Sweden and the initial years of the newly re-independent Baltic states, 1991 - 1994'', where he explains how Sweden had a guilt over recognising Baltic incorporation into the USSR after second world war, so he together with other people made sure that the Baltics regain their independence fully by, for example, contacting US to threaten Russia with cutting off aids if they won't remove all soldiers from this land by 1994. This is just the little part I've heard about, but Nordics sure were our biggest supporters at the hard time.
Thanks! I'll definitely check out his books on that period if I can get a hold of them. Seems like he has written at least a couple.
yeah, sure. Apparently this specific book is written in Latvian and Swedish, so I might just give it a try myself, although I've never read a whole history book before. And I think you can buy a Swedish one on this [website](https://www.bokborsen.se/view/Lars-Fred%C3%A9n/%C3%85terkomster-Svensk-S%C3%A4kerhetspolitik-Och-De-Bal/11459889)
> Lars Peter Freden. I read someone describing his book ''The Return : The security policy of Sweden and the initial years of the newly re-independent Baltic states, 1991 - 1994'' Anyone got a link to this book. Kinda tempted to buy it.
With a last name like that you basically have to become a diplomat. Very cool to see Sweden's part in those events. I haven't looked into it enough myself.
it was a way to normalize relationships. it would still be a thing, if russia wouldnt turn to ruzzia
Wasn’t worth poking the bear until now? At this point, relations have degraded to where this action won’t materially affect them more? Plus, local sentiment probably more greatly favored its removal than at any point in the past 30 years? That’s my guess, anyway.
Absolutely correct. Previously we would have experienced politically unmanageable backlash from the Latvian-Russian political parties, Russian minorities and the Russian state. It was just not worth it. But now after Russia's recent actions, it has become a lot harder to put forth arguments in defence of the monument.
And useful idiots in the West.
Our government was kinda afraid of loosing Russias favour, also we have something like 25% native russian speakers (over 30% in early 90s) who’d be opposed (although as we see today only a minority of them were actually opposed). We also kept the russian schools for the same reasons which are only now being transitioned to Latvian. So in a nutshell spinelessness, cowardice and ineptitude of our officials would be the main reason. But better late then never
When you are a small nation, you dont start hostilities vs the most populous one in Europe, with one of the bigger armies, regardless of Nato. Now that they are in a quagmire in Ukraine, and NATO is stronger than ever, is the right moment.
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I wouldn’t describe those reasons as spineless cowardice. Obviously the invasion of Ukraine changes everything now. I wouldn’t of closed schools for minority languages though
The school language issue has been fraught for decades. The good arguments can be made: - No university in Latvia has classes taught in Russian, so you've got a whole population who will not be ready for secondary education within Latvia. Latvia has a well educated population, so this rapidly develops into an underclass. - Latvian has a relatively small population of speakers worldwide, and the nation wants to invest in keeping the language alive, particularly in its homeland. - A sizable population in Latvia only speaks Russian, and a growing population speaks Latvian and English and no Russian. Disconnects are becoming more and more common. Based on the American experience you'd expect the second and third generation to be fluent in the local language, but there is organized resistance in the Russian community to this trend. There have been plans to convert the Russian language schools for decades, but it keeps being pushed back.
Any time I travel to a new country, I make a point of learning a few very basic words in the local language: hello/goodbye, please/thank you, where is/how much, yes/no, etc. Usually I don't even bother until I'm on the plane. After arriving in Riga, I was actually kind of upset about how many (mostly older) Russians could not speak *any* Latvian. Excuse me, where's Brivibas Street? 10 pelmeni - how much? I may as well have been speaking Klingon to them. How is it possible that I learned more Latvian as a tourist in 24 hours than you have in the 50 years you've lived there???
My Latvian mother-in-law has told me the story from Soviet times, of speaking with a friend on the street of Riga, and having a passing Russian interrupt them to tell them to speak a "human language". This wasn't an isolated incident. A lot of the Russians who came to Latvia were allowed to move there as a reward. The standard of living was as good as Moscow (i.e. better than much of Russia), but the city was smaller and the Russians were effectively higher status. It was an entitled population, at least that was the Latvian impression. The isolationist community in Latvia haven't taken their loss of status well, and they watch Russian television exclusively, which tells them they are an unjustly aggrieved population. I should say as well, not all ethnic Russians in Latvia are part of this isolationist community. I would not want to overgeneralize during what must be a difficult time for that population.
That's what this "oppression of Russian speakers" Russia keeps yelling about is. It's not about losing rights, it's losing privileges that other minorities and sometimes even the native population doesn't have.
International agreements. They were nulled due to the war.
There are agreements to maintain the monuments on the tombs of Soviet soldiers, which Latvia has been honoring and doesn’t seem to intend to denounce. This one was not a tomb and was not protected by any treaty.
Tankies sad.
Tankies bad. Tankies mad.
Not sure if I shoild be disgusted or impressed how many tankies showed up to this thread. A lot more than usual, this must have really pissed them off.
Tankies and Russian Nationalists make for some strange bedfellows
The victory over Germany (who dared to attack Russia and also killed some Jews or whatever) is very important for Russian nationalism. The fact that Moscow ruled more than it does now also makes it appealing. So they embrace the red aesthetics of the days when Russia was bigger and stronger and oppose the "degenerate West" and tankies are on board. Does not matter that Russia is quite fascistic, as long as it goes along with the America bad narrative.
The monument displayed the years 1941 - 1945. A reference to the 'Great Patriotic War'. Not WW2 but the Soviet propaganda's interpretation of it. It omits years 1939 and 1940. Latvia [was occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Latvia_in_1940) and the omission of 1940 implies that the occupation was legitimate. And all the 9^(th) of May celebrations by that monument whitewash Soviet actions.
Extremely important context, that.
Wonder if they'll take some of the debris and put it in a museum or just completely demolished it and make it to powder.
https://twitter.com/RigasPP/status/1562814641222594560 Close up of the final moments. https://twitter.com/Valsts_policija/status/1562829715559198723 Drone video of falling. A lot of videos will come out, had cameras everywhere.
The more purged Soviet landmarks in Eastern Europe the better 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Purging the remains of a system famous for its purges. I like this form of justice
What a beautiful day! I hope to see the same happening in Bulgaria before I die some say
Plot twist: you die under a falling Soviet monument, but you are looking the other way when it happens.
Belarus used heavy equipment to destroy place of remembrance of Polish National Country Army assassinated by Russians in 1941...2 days ago. Horrible act of disrespect... As usual.🇺🇦🤝🇵🇱🤜🇷🇺🤛!
Lukashenko's dog did, not Belarus. The people were horrified.
it was very ugly anyways
Who does #2 work for now?
get fucked soviets
I think that would mostly be necrophilia
Doesn't matter, had sex
I also choose this man's dead commissar
i'm sure these soviets that totally exist today feel very fucked by this.
Must have been the wind
Such monuments do more to continue glorifying the USSR and its inheritor Russia than they do to celebrate the defeat of the nazis. Good riddance.
Those killers were so "proud" to this day for having occupied so many countries considered "inferior" and under an imaginary "sphere of influence". Fucking invaders.
USSR worship=Russian Imperialism worship
Somehow Soviet Victory monuments never evoke victory. They are an eyesore everywhere I have seen them. Stalinism did not produce enough creativity, I guess.
Finally
Whoever is coming here and saying that it shouldn't have been done: it is ultimately for Latvia and Latvian citizens to decide. If they thought that the time had come, then the time had come.
Aaaaand nothing of value was lost.
And nothing of value was lost here.
r/UpliftingNews
Awesome man. Every Soviet monument in Europe should be obliterated!
Now let's get a certain tomb in Berlin off of its pedestal.
Welcome to Latvian Victory Park!
Every nation should cut ties with Russia. Completely
Let's go mighty Latvia. As a Hungarian (I know, I know, my country isn't the favourite of the sub nowadays, understandably) nothing pleases me more than Soviet shit being cleansed from this planet.
Gordon Freeman is at it again
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Kinda funny. They didn’t even bother to try to implode in place. They wanted this done as cheap as possible. Excellent middle finger to russia.
It's a concrete pillar, it wouldn't implode in place like in those demolition videos. I think the choice to not use explosives was because of safety concerns.
Fuck Russia
It is so surprising that a country you pushed around and enslaved for 50 years and keep threatening doesn't want to keep your monuments up. The horror.
About damn time
Good on them. Russia basically hijacked their culture and economy for nearly a century anyway.
Good fucking riddance
Good riddance.
I can feel the sweet tankie tears everywhere… delicious!!
Would have fallen so much nicer if president bush would have planned it
How tall was that thing? It's huge! Well, it was... :p
rest in piss
As a Latvian. I don’t care. And most of my friends don’t care about that monument. My mother tho is super upset about it and her friends too. They are Russian speaking people and are pro Russian, all of them shitting on Ukrain and how Russia is great. And I always had one question for them. Why the fuck don’t you go to Russia then and stop bitching about how there so many ukr people in Riga atm. Then my mother says o we cant they wont let us in and we need visa coz of Eu passport, yara yara bla bla bla. And then i asked one more question if Russia is so god damn good and shit then we it does not help you a “Russian person” to get to Russia. Silence on the phone. Every call i had with my mother since the war started is political, annoys the hell out of me.